Tag Cuts Upon Tag Cuts

[Vanilla]

Well, we are now down to just 64k buck deer tags in Utah. This is the fifth year in a row that tag numbers have been cut.

How many more need to be cut next year when this does exactly Jack squat for our deer herds? I mean, we are almost down to just 25% of the number of tags we had in the glory days. Do we need to drop all the way down to just 10%?

Maybe if we get down to just 25k tags that will be enough for some of ya’ll and Wade Heaton, who admittedly doesn’t care about biology in his decision making.

“Hunters” make me absolutely sick. Stay tuned if you’re interested in taking our wildlife back from antis and A holes.

 

[MrShane]

Well, we are now down to just 64k buck deer tags in Utah. This is the fifth year in a row that tag numbers have been cut.

How many more need to be cut next year when this does exactly Jack squat for our deer herds? I mean, we are almost down to just 25% of the number of tags we had in the glory days. Do we need to drop all the way down to just 10%?

Maybe if we get down to just 25k tags that will be enough for some of ya’ll and Wade Heaton, who admittedly doesn’t care about biology in his decision making.

“Hunters” make me absolutely sick. Stay tuned if you’re interested in taking our wildlife back from antis and A holes.

What percentage of tags were cut from The Expo’s handout?

 

[elkassassin]

WHEWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!

I Was wondering If The KING Was OK!

Glad you're Alive & Well Niller!

 

[elkassassin]

Hey Niller!

Just A reminder!

hossy Wants You To Cut Your Own Tag as in:

Cut It Up On Live Video Before Your Tag is Valid!

You in?

 

[Vanilla]

He doesn’t want me to, Whoop. But I wonder what you’ll whine about now?

 

[hornkiller]

Nothing has ever been cut from the CON show!

 

[Vanilla]

What percentage of tags were cut from The Expo’s handout?

Or Heaton’s CWMU?

The Wildlife Board has done some really crappy things to hurt hunters and hunting over the years in favor of special interests. Openly stating we don’t care about biology and we’re completely putting it aside to make these decisions had to absolutely take the cake.

Wild times, indeed.

 

[elkassassin]

WTF Do you Mean He Doesn't want You To?

He Wants everybody But Himself To Cut Their Tags Up Before Their Season Starts So The DWR Still Gets Their Money!

He doesn’t want me to, Whoop. But I wonder what you’ll whine about now?

 

[elkassassin]

Are you Gonna Believe Me One Of These Days After Me Saying PISS POOR MANAGEMENT For 50+ Years Now?

JUDAS!

Or Heaton’s CWMU?

The Wildlife Board has done some really crappy things to hurt hunters and hunting over the years in favor of special interests. Openly stating we don’t care about biology and we’re completely putting it aside to make these decisions had to absolutely take the cake.

Wild times, indeed.

 

[Silentstalker]

Well, we are now down to just 64k buck deer tags in Utah. This is the fifth year in a row that tag numbers have been cut.

How many more need to be cut next year when this does exactly Jack squat for our deer herds? I mean, we are almost down to just 25% of the number of tags we had in the glory days. Do we need to drop all the way down to just 10%?

Maybe if we get down to just 25k tags that will be enough for some of ya’ll and Wade Heaton, who admittedly doesn’t care about biology in his decision making.

“Hunters” make me absolutely sick. Stay tuned if you’re interested in taking our wildlife back from antis and A holes.

I’m interested. It’s way past time we took it back. While we are at, we need to take back our country as well.

 

[elkassassin]

I'll 2nd That!

Way Past Time To Take Our Country Back!

I’m interested. It’s way past time we took it back. While we are at, we need to take back our country as well.

 

[schoolhousegrizz]

Well, we are now down to just 64k buck deer tags in Utah. This is the fifth year in a row that tag numbers have been cut.

How many more need to be cut next year when this does exactly Jack squat for our deer herds? I mean, we are almost down to just 25% of the number of tags we had in the glory days. Do we need to drop all the way down to just 10%?

Maybe if we get down to just 25k tags that will be enough for some of ya’ll and Wade Heaton, who admittedly doesn’t care about biology in his decision making.

“Hunters” make me absolutely sick. Stay tuned if you’re interested in taking our wildlife back from antis and A holes.

I get that people don't want cuts because they want to hunt. I'd rather not have cuts either, unless needed. Which obviously some are needed these days. I have a lifetime license, tag cuts won't hurt me specifically and people get mad at that and call me selfish. However, just because you don't get a license, you don't want tag cuts, because it affects you. Isn't that just as selfish? It's not our fault you didn't get in on the lifetime license deal. Life's not fair, get over it.

I agree that you can't stockpile bucks to a certain extent. For crying out loud weve got to have the lowest Buck to doe ratio in the whole west. Our quality is not great. I don't need great quality, sure it would be nice but I want people to hunt. I want sportsman to have a big voice. However, some are acting like the whole state is ran like the Henries. Our buck to doe ratios are low, we give out plenty of tags.

Someone please name a state that has a lower buck to doe ratio than Utah!
There may be one, but not many.

Yes yes I know buck to doe ratios are not the greatest measuring tool. We need more overall deer. However buck to doe ratios tell us how many bucks we have and is a good indicator of age structure of our bucks.

Our buck to doe ratios are incredibly low, lower than anywhere in the west we're obviously shooting enough bucks, more than any other state on percentage wise. What do you guys want? 5 bucks to 100 does?

 

[elkassassin]

What Niller Doesn't Understand There Is A Group Trying To Get A Committee Together To Take the LT Deer Tags!

Holy F'N Frick!

I Can Only Image the Mood The KING Will Be In When This Tag Cut Takes Place!

 

[elkantlers]

Lifetime licenses were intended for a general over the counter deer permit. Once tags were limited and went to a draw the LL holders are then out of luck.

This needs to be addressed at the next RAC Cycle.

 

[schoolhousegrizz]

Lifetime licenses were intended for a general over the counter deer permit. Once tags were limited and went to a draw the LL holders are then out of luck.

Sorry that will never happen, it's a problem that will literally take care of itself if you do nothing at all. Yeah it will take a while.

 

[ridgetops]

Our buck/ doe ratios are not incredibly low. They're probably as high as they've been in the past 50 years as a whole and I bet they're a lot higher than the general units in southern Idaho.

 

[schoolhousegrizz]

Our buck/ doe ratios are not incredibly low. They're probably as high as they've been in the past 50 years as a whole and I bet they're a lot higher than the general units in southern Idaho

They are managed for lower than Southern Idaho. Southern Idaho has taken a bad hit. I don't believe they're the highest they've ever been in 50 years. Even if they're doing okay by Utah standards they are still lower compared to every other Western State. We manage lower than every other Western state.

Ridge, do you think we should have lower buck to doe ratios and give out more buck tags? 15 bucks for 100 does in some units is incredibly low. 20 is not great either.

 

[Vanilla]

I have a lifetime license, tag cuts won't hurt me specifically and people get mad at that and call me selfish. However, just because you don't get a license, you don't want tag cuts, because it affects you. Isn't that just as selfish? It's not our fault you didn't get in on the lifetime license deal. Life's not fair, get over it.

Except I was smart enough to get in on the lifetime license and have one myself. Cutting tags would benefit me greatly, but I want as many people as possible to be able to hunt. It’s not just about me. Novel idea in this day and age, I know. And yes, advocating for tag cuts with a LL is the epitome of selfishness in my opinion. Unless you’re taking hossy’s challenge that literally not one single person crying for others to lose opportunity has ever taken. Then I’d give you a pass.

It’s time for the silent majority to no longer be silent. We really need to get people off their butts and start talking to these fools who openly say “screw biology, we’re doing what we want regardless” while they crap on hunters year after year.

This is our wildlife, not theirs. It’s time we start acting like it.

 

[elkassassin]

We Do Our Own Deer Counts In An Area We've Been Counting In For Decades!

Gets Worse Every Year!

This Year What Was Sad Was The Lack of Any Bucks With Any Age At All & This Was Dead Center Of The RUT!

MOTL Bucks Breeding Their Mothers!

UN-F'N-BELIEVABLE!

 

[elkassassin]

Hey Niller?

You taking The hossy Challenge?

Or Not?

Except I was smart enough to get in on the lifetime license and have one myself. Cutting tags would benefit me greatly, but I want as many people as possible to be able to hunt. It’s not just about me. Novel idea in this day and age, I know. And yes, advocating for tag cuts with a LL is the epitome of selfishness in my opinion. Unless you’re taking hossy’s challenge that literally not one single person crying for others to lose opportunity has ever taken. Then I’d give you a pass.

It’s time for the silent majority to no longer be silent. We really need to get people off their butts and start talking to these fools who openly say “screw biology, we’re doing what we want regardless” while they crap on hunters year after year.

This is our wildlife, not theirs. It’s time we start acting like it.

 

[schoolhousegrizz]

Except I was smart enough to get in on the lifetime license and have one myself. Cutting tags would benefit me greatly, but I want as many people as possible to be able to hunt. It’s not just about me. Novel idea in this day and age, I know. And yes, advocating for tag cuts with a LL is the epitome of selfishness in my opinion. Unless you’re taking hossy’s challenge that literally not one single person crying for others to lose opportunity has ever taken. Then I’d give you a pass.

It’s time for the silent majority to no longer be silent. We really need to get people off their butts and start talking to these fools who openly say “screw biology, we’re doing what we want regardless” while they crap on hunters year after year.

This is our wildlife, not theirs. It’s time we start acting like it.

So is it not selfish if the buck to doe ratio is at objective or even below and people want tag increases? It goes both ways. I think the tag numbers are fine as it is. They're staying within the plan.

Are you saying you want them to deviate from the plan, give out more buck tags and knock the buck to doe ratios even lower? What do you think the ratio should be at?

I'm not asking for tag cuts I'm asking to stay within the plan. That is what they're doing and some people are mad that they didn't increase tags or that they cut them again. Yeah I won't cut up my tag. I got a lifetime license thank the good Lord and my dad for that. I'll hunt every year just like I would expect every other person to if they get a tag.

Bottom line we give out enough Buck tags in this state to have the lowest Buck to doe ratio in the entire west.

 

[ridgetops]

They are managed for lower than Southern Idaho. Southern Idaho has taken a bad hit. I don't believe they're the highest they've ever been in 50 years. Even if they're doing okay by Utah standards they are still lower compared to every other Western State. We manage lower than every other Western state.

Ridge, do you think we should have lower buck to doe ratios and give out more buck tags? 15 bucks for 100 does in some units is incredibly low. 20 is not great either.

I don't think we should go lower than what the unit is managed for. Many of the 15-17 buck ratio units had single digit ratios until option 2 went into effect 11 years ago.

 

[elkassassin]

I Mentioned Cutting 10 Tags!

I got My Ass Chewed!

The DWR Had Already Cut The Tags!

Correct Me If I'm Wrong Niller!

But Was There Slightly More tags Just Cut Than The 10 I Mentioned?

 

[Silentstalker]

Except I was smart enough to get in on the lifetime license and have one myself. Cutting tags would benefit me greatly, but I want as many people as possible to be able to hunt. It’s not just about me. Novel idea in this day and age, I know. And yes, advocating for tag cuts with a LL is the epitome of selfishness in my opinion. Unless you’re taking hossy’s challenge that literally not one single person crying for others to lose opportunity has ever taken. Then I’d give you a pass.

It’s time for the silent majority to no longer be silent. We really need to get people off their butts and start talking to these fools who openly say “screw biology, we’re doing what we want regardless” while they crap on hunters year after year.

This is our wildlife, not theirs. It’s time we start acting like it.

Outside of emails to the RAC and WB members each time all this comes up, how do we “talk to these fools”?

I think this goes way beyond them. The whole RAC/WB system is broken.

 

[elkassassin]

They Only Wanna Give People Like Us 3 Minutes!

I Can't Tell Them What I Need To Tell Them In 3 Minutes!

If That 3 Minute Rule Ain't The Biggest F'N Joke Of Anything I've ever Heard of...................................!

Outside of emails to the RAC and WB members each time all this comes up, how do we “talk to these fools”?

I think this goes way beyond them. The whole RAC/WB system is broken.

 

[Vanilla]

Are you saying you want them to deviate from the plan, give out more buck tags and knock the buck to doe ratios even lower? What do you think the ratio should be at?

I’m not saying that at all. Which unit is below objective on buck:doe ratio where the biologists were recommending increased tags?

 

[Vanilla]

Outside of emails to the RAC and WB members each time all this comes up, how do we “talk to these fools”?

I think this goes way beyond them. The whole RAC/WB system is broken.

I agree, but there needs to come a time where they have no choice but to listen. And by “they” I mean the legislature, governor, and the wildlife board.

 

[schoolhousegrizz]

I’m not saying that at all. Which unit is below objective on buck:doe ratio where the biologists were recommending increased tags?

I said below OR AT objective. I would have to look to see if any are below. Pine valley is at objective and they increased tags. I know there's a number of units where this has been done in the past. I would have to look up to find specifically what unit. They also always seem to be fine closer to 15 and closer to 18 never try to get it up to 17 and 20. That's fine it's in the plan but these people that are mad at TAG cuts or think there should have been tag increases have to realize that would knock the buck to doe ratio even lower. I don't know if there's one unit that's over objective is there? My point is we give out plenty of buck tags according to the plan and we have lowest buck to doe ratios in the west. That seems like a major lean towards opportunity and not at all towards quality. Which is fine, but let's call it what it is. I don't think another state is even close to trying to manage for 15 bucks per 100 does. It seems like we give out as many Buck tags as we possibly can.

 

[Vanilla]

And my point is we have cut tags five years in a row now and there will be 15,000 less hunters afield this fall than there was just 3 years ago.

When is enough enough for you tag cut folks? Give me the magic number so I can know when you’ll stop trying to take tags out of everyone else’s pocket while you get to keep one in yours every year. What’s the number?

 

[Silentstalker]

So how do we make them listen? Do we do a March on the capitol? Do we bombard the governor with calls?

I for one am past ready. It sounds like there are more than a few ready as well. The biggest issue with it all is most hunters in this state don’t have a clue as to what happens or how it all happens. Most are apathetic and won’t do a dang thing.

The RAC/WB is a required process tied to federal funding if I’m not mistaken. What is the end goal? Replace the WB or rebuild the entire process?

 

[schoolhousegrizz]

And my point is we have cut tags five years in a row now and there will be 15,000 less hunters afield this fall than there was just 3 years ago.

When is enough enough for you tag cut folks? Give me the magic number so I can know when you’ll stop trying to take tags out of everyone else’s pocket while you get to keep one in yours every year. What’s the number?

We have to stay within the plan so they're doing exactly what they should be doing. It's fine how it is. The numbers are between 15 and 17 bucks per 100 does and 18 to 20 bucks to 100 does. Even though it's piss poor and the lowest in the entire West, that is the number.

If they change the plan then so be it. Maybe they will go to 4 bucks per 100 does since they say that's all we need. Then would you opportunity guys be happy?

 

[travishunter3006]

Tag cuts = failure of game management.

 

[southernutahhunter]

Look at Beaver unit. Wanted a 300 tag increase. Has dropped in deer numbers last 3 years to all time low of 9200 by their poor inaccurate count. Buck/doe ratio of 15 for 3 year average and fawn to doe ratio lowest in the state. This is the unit I hunt vanilla and there is not 1000 deer total on this unit. Now tell me about the Biology making sense.

 

[Muley_73]

Everyone screaming about losing tags. Nobody saying a word about actually losing the resource. What’s the % of hunters compared to the % of deer we once had. Factor in our efficiency improvements connected to technology over the past 50 years. There are ways to address this without cutting tags. However we…all of us, WB, RACS, DWR, public at large choose to not.
Buck/Doe ratios I would like to see higher…but not more than I’d like to see the overall number is deer increase. But I think in Utah “biology” was thrown out the window by the DWR…long long ago before Wade Heaton was even involved at all. If you’ve been around long enough to talk to actual biologist that have studied mule deer and also worked for or with the DWR you would understand this. The biologist they stay with and excel at the DWR are those that conform to the DWR narrative. Sorry but at the end the day I believe guys like Bess have more true insight and understanding of local deer herds than the “biologist”

 

[elkassassin]

Well Muley_73!

I Surely Don't Claim To Be A Biologist!

I Don't Think You Have To Be A Biologist To Figure This Sshitt Out Neither!

We Do Deer Counts in a Couple of Areas in a Couple Different Units!

After Pounding Them Areas for 5-7 Days Straight Right During The RUT You Get A Perty Good Feel For What Is There & What Is Not There!

Un-Believably It Gets Worse By The Year!

We Count Every Buck Even If He's a MOTL Buck or a Buck With Nubs!

The Difference Between Our Deer Counts & The DWR's Counts Is We Keep Track of Age Class & HeadGear Size!

I Don't Give A Rats Ass When The DWR Boasts a Buck To Does Ratio of 20 to 100!

In Their Buck To Doe BS Management They're Counting Everything With Nubs Including MOTL Bucks Trying To Breed Their Mothers!

We Need To Bring Total Mule Deer Numbers Back!

We Hunt These Animals To Death!

If There Is A Decent Buck Or Two Left In The State They've Got a Name & A Price Tag On Their Heads!

It Ain't Hard To See Why Alot Of The Youth are Not Gonna Hunt Like alot of The Youth in This State Use To Hunt!

I More Worried About What My GrandKids & Everybody-elses GrandKids May Or May Not See When They're Old Enough To Hunt!

By Then a Forked Horn Buck In This State Will Be a F'N Trophy!

SAD!

50+ Years & Counting Of PISS POOR Management and Getting Worse by The Year!

People Like he KING Worried Only About Tags!

It Ain't Far Off & You'll Be Wishing There Was Something To Go With Them Tags!

But After It's Totally F'D Up They'll Still Be Willing To Sell You a Tag!

And I Suppose There Will Always Be Dumb-Asses Dumb Enough To Buy Them Tags & Still BRAGG They Got a Tag That Ain't Worth The Paper it's Printed On!

Carry On!

 

[Muley_73]

I hear you Bess!

 

[Weiserbucks]

What's an MOTL buck?

 

[Vanilla]

Muley73, your attacks on Utah “biologists” would carry more water if we were in a unique situation compared to every other state around us. Or does the UDWR exercise mind control over all those other states’ biologist as well?

50+ years of tag cuts Whoopi, and here we are…still yelling about tag cuts! I’m sure if we just keep doing it, at some point it’s going to work! What could go wrong?

 

[Muley_73]

Muley73, your attacks on Utah “biologists” would carry more water if we were in a unique situation compared to every other state around us. Or does the UDWR exercise mind control over all those other states’ biologist as well?

50+ years of tag cuts Whoopi, and here we are…still yelling about tag cuts! I’m sure if we just keep doing it, at some point it’s going to work! What could go wrong?

That comment is based on the words of the Biologist themselves.

 

[schoolhousegrizz]

Muley73, your attacks on Utah “biologists” would carry more water if we were in a unique situation compared to every other state around us. Or does the UDWR exercise mind control over all those other states’ biologist as well?

50+ years of tag cuts Whoopi, and here we are…still yelling about tag cuts! I’m sure if we just keep doing it, at some point it’s going to work! What could go wrong?

Do you agree that we give out as many Buck tags as we can if we want to stay in the parameters of the plan?

 

[elkhunterUT]

Ok, you all are saying we shouldn’t believe the biologists and data from actual collared studies, and instead go with the opinions of an irrational plumber from the basin and hillbillies from southern Utah carrying a clicker with them as they drive the roads?

I’m not saying the biologists have all the answers all of the time and are always right, but cmon. Let’s give the professionals some credit here.

 

[ridgetops]

Here's my prediction. The guys that are crying for more tag cuts because they don't see nothing but 2 points while driving around the last couple years will continue to see the same thing in 2024. The guys that have been seeing and killing big bucks already are going to have a banner year in 24, that's if they can get a tag.

 

[schoolhousegrizz]

Here's my prediction. The guys that are crying for more tag cuts because they don't see nothing but 2 points while driving around the last couple years will continue to see the same thing in 2024. The guys that have been seeing and killing big bucks already are going to have a banner year in 24, that's if they can get a tag.

Many of the guys that support more conservative tag numbers have shot plenty of big bucks.

 

[Muley_73]

Ok, you all are saying we shouldn’t believe the biologists and data from actual collared studies, and instead go with the opinions of an irrational plumber from the basin and hillbillies from southern Utah carrying a clicker with them as they drive the roads?

I’m not saying the biologists have all the answers all of the time and are always right, but cmon. Let’s give the professionals some credit here.

When the data has been proven to be ignored or manipulated in the past to fit the narrative of the DWR. When biologist have been told to change numbers or report different numbers it gives reason for questioning it now.

You all scream that cutting tags doesn’t help the herd. So explain to me how adding tags to a dwindling resource helps? You all are more concerned about having a tag than actually helping the resource.

 

[Muley_73]

Many of the guys that support more conservative tag numbers have shot plenty of big bucks.

That’s because a lot of them actually put in the time, in fact some of those irrational hillbillies have sent a massive amount of more time with and studying and cataloging the resource than the actual biologists.

 

[bucks]

When the ANTIS could not beat the system,They joined the system.
I have stated on this forum before that when CWMU were set up in Utah that was the beginning of the end of hunting for the common hunter. if you don't think that the people that are making these decisions are not Antis then its time to wake up.Politically motivated,And it is GREED!!!!!!

 

[ridgetops]

Many of the guys that support more conservative tag numbers have shot plenty of big bucks.

And a lot of them have lifetime tags.

 

[elkhunterUT]

When the data has been proven to be ignored or manipulated in the past to fit the narrative of the DWR. When biologist have been told to change numbers or report different numbers it gives reason for questioning it now.

You all scream that cutting tags doesn’t help the herd. So explain to me how adding tags to a dwindling resource helps? You all are more concerned about having a tag than actually helping the resource.

I’m not sure what you mean by data being ignored, but I know for a fact biological data was ignored by the Wildlife Board on Thursday out of fear and wanting to “send a message”

That is what is broken in Utah. It is not the biologists

 

[Muley_73]

I’m not sure what you mean by data being ignored, but I know for a fact biological data was ignored by the Wildlife Board on Thursday out of fear and wanting to “send a message”

That is what is broken in Utah. It is not the biologists

Biologist counts, condition of the herds, buck:doe, fawn counts. Biologist making recommendations based on their own data the higher ups at the Division telling them to change the numbers or make different recommendations. More than one biologist has made this claim usually off the record.

 

[elkhunterUT]

Biologist counts, condition of the herds, buck:doe, fawn counts. Biologist making recommendations based on their own data the higher ups at the Division telling them to change the numbers or make different recommendations. More than one biologist has made this claim usually off the record.

Ok, you are just one more voice with no facts, but I’ll be sure to take your credible word into account along with the ol Bobcat’s

 

[Vanilla]

Do you agree that we give out as many Buck tags as we can if we want to stay in the parameters of the plan?

No, I do not agree with that. I think I’ve made that MORE than clear. Because the people that actually have the data have told me so.

Despite conspiracy theories by people with an ax to grind, I trust those we actually pay money to do the work and are professionals over part time wanna be internet biologists.

 

[Muley_73]

Ok, you are just one more voice with no facts, but I’ll be sure to take your credible word into account along with the ol Bobcat’s

Actually facts…but again reality is a hard pill to swallow.
Are you familiar with the “model” the DWR uses and has used in the past? The same model used when the DWR was issuing 800+ Lope tags on the Parker. Locals screamed until they finally flew the unit and had to shut down the entire hunt. It asked Anis if it was the same model. He’s answer was a laugh and a yes along with a shoulder shrug. The biologist that Anis replaced on the Cache had very low counts and pushed for less tags and pressure on the herd. He was removed and on one single year with Anis counting the herd numbers sky rocketed. Yet the local hillbillies saw no change at all in the herds. Several more amazing counts and tags had increased and Anis was promoted….did Anis grow deer or just deliver on the narrative ? Based on the model he referred to If guess he himself actually has no idea.

 

[Muley_73]

No, I do not agree with that. I think I’ve made that MORE than clear. Because the people that actually have the data have told me so.

Despite conspiracy theories by people with an ax to grind, I trust those we actually pay money to do the work and are professionals over part time wanna be internet biologists.

That’s just your 5th booster talking

 

[schoolhousegrizz]

No, I do not agree with that. I think I’ve made that MORE than clear. Because the people that actually have the data have told me so.

Despite conspiracy theories by people with an ax to grind, I trust those we actually pay money to do the work and are professionals over part time wanna be internet biologists.

So how is giving out more buck tags not going to drop the buck to doe ratio below objective when we are barely at objective?

 

[elkhunter81]

It seems to me that the same people who continually want tags cut everywhere are the same people who supported the shut downs during the covid. Same tactics are being "you are not smart enough to see what's going on" "I'm doing this to protect future generations" "you are not old enough to remeber". So I think anyone who is let's say over 60 shouldn't be able to hunt anymore. "You guys" that are that age are preaching the most but you allowed certain groups to take hold and here we are. So lead by example and hang it up and stay home and just remember the good ole days. The rest of us will enjoy and try and make the best out of bad situation because who knows we could cut all tags next year for the better of the herd

 

[elkhunterUT]

Actually facts…but again reality is a hard pill to swallow.
Are you familiar with the “model” the DWR uses and has used in the past? The same model used when the DWR was issuing 800+ Lope tags on the Parker. Locals screamed until they finally flew the unit and had to shut down the entire hunt. It asked Anis if it was the same model. He’s answer was a laugh and a yes along with a shoulder shrug. The biologist that Anis replaced on the Cache had very low counts and pushed for less tags and pressure on the herd. He was removed and on one single year with Anis counting the herd numbers sky rocketed. Yet the local hillbillies saw no change at all in the herds. Several more amazing counts and tags had increased and Anis was promoted….did Anis grow deer or just deliver on the narrative ? Based on the model he referred to If guess he himself actually has no idea.

How long has Anis been gone now? I won’t argue that for a long time the DWR did not always have the best data and numbers to manage the resource. Thankfully that is all in the past and the Division is actually doing great work, as of the past couple years, to utilize actual data thanks to collar studies and other technology that helps a great deal. It really is ok to acknowledge the DWR has changed for the better-give them a chance now to make a difference with better data.

You should probably let go of your displeasure with Anis, just as you should let go of ever having a mule deer herd like we had back in the 80’s. Population explosion and sprawl adversely impacting habitat, weather, and many other factors will prevent us from ever having the “good ole days” back. Might as well embrace that and try to make the best of what we do have.

 

[Vanilla]

So how is giving out more buck tags not going to drop the buck to doe ratio below objective when we are barely at objective?

This is where your whole line of logic fails:

The recommendation was NOT to give out more buck tags. There was a unit you care about because you get handed a tag every year like I do and you want to keep other people from hunting it, and I don’t.

You and I just fundamentally disagree on how we should use our public resources. I think we should manage to benefit all of us, and you want them to manage to benefit you. It’s okay. This is America, we are all entitled to our opinions.

 

[Vanilla]

That’s just your 5th booster talking

I’ve seen this tactic of defraying from the conversation when you know you can’t actually back up your argument a million times. 1500 of them from you.

Wyoming lost an estimated 40% of their deer herd in less than a decade. Did Utah biologists cause that too?

 

[schoolhousegrizz]

This is where your whole line of logic fails:

The recommendation was NOT to give out more buck tags. There was a unit you care about because you get handed a tag every year like I do and you want to keep other people from hunting it, and I don’t.

You and I just fundamentally disagree on how we should use our public resources. I think we should manage to benefit all of us, and you want them to manage to benefit you. It’s okay. This is America, we are all entitled to our opinions.

Wrong again, I said I'm fine with the tags they are within the objective. You want more tags. You said hunters make you sick!! What do you want the buck to doe ratio? What's your number? You asked me my number and I told you. Now let's hear your number.

If you are saying you don't want more buck tags then why did you start a thread where you're so upset and say hunters make you sick? Seems strange.

 

[Muley_73]

So how is giving out more buck tags not going to drop the buck to doe ratio below objective when we are barely at objective?

Currently the state claims 335,000 mule deer. They also claim to have a buck to doe ratio of 15-20 bucks. That puts 50,000 to 65,000 bucks in the state . That’s if you actually believe the numbers. But let’s for the sake of this argument agree with the DWRs numbers. Please explain to me how issuing more deer tags than there are actual bucks in the state a good idea …let alone pretending that we are being conservationists and putting the resource first? I know that success rates factor in but what about road kill, predator kills, horrible winter taking out an entire fawn crop and adults. We are gambling to close to the line based even the DWR numbers.

 

[Katoom]

What's an MOTL buck?

 

[schoolhousegrizz]

Currently the state claims 335,000 mule deer. They also claim to have a buck to doe ratio of 15-20 bucks. That puts 50,000 to 65,000 bucks in the state . That’s if you actually believe the numbers. But let’s for the sake of this argument agree with the DWRs numbers. Please explain to me how issuing more deer tags than there are actual bucks in the state a good idea …let alone pretending that we are being conservationists and putting the resource first? I know that success rates factor in but what about road kill, predator kills, horrible winter taking out an entire fawn crop and adults. We are gambling to close to the line based even the DWR numbers.

Agree

 

[Muley_73]

I’ve seen this tactic of defraying from the conversation when you know you can’t actually back up your argument a million times. 1500 of them from you.

Wyoming lost an estimated 40% of their deer herd in less than a decade. Did Utah biologists cause that too?

I never said the crash of mule deer was the sole fault of hunters. I have only stated that we have mismanaged our resource.

I generally defray because it’s a waste to argue with someone that’s under educated on the subject…and even worse when that individual believes they are.

 

[elkhunter81]

Currently the state claims 335,000 mule deer. They also claim to have a buck to doe ratio of 15-20 bucks. That puts 50,000 to 65,000 bucks in the state . That’s if you actually believe the numbers. But let’s for the sake of this argument agree with the DWRs numbers. Please explain to me how issuing more deer tags than there are actual bucks in the state a good idea …let alone pretending that we are being conservationists and putting the resource first? I know that success rates factor in but what about road kill, predator kills, horrible winter taking out an entire fawn crop and adults. We are gambling to close to the line based even the DWR numbers.

We are not 100% successful as hunters. Based on "data" from previous years they set numbers based on success. So you can issue tags knowing that most years it won't affect the herd too much and allow for new deer to come onto the landscape. If a tag means a "right" to a monster buck every year then someone has lied to you

 

[Muley_73]

It seems to me that the same people who continually want tags cut everywhere are the same people who supported the shut downs during the covid. Same tactics are being "you are not smart enough to see what's going on" "I'm doing this to protect future generations" "you are not old enough to remeber". So I think anyone who is let's say over 60 shouldn't be able to hunt anymore. "You guys" that are that age are preaching the most but you allowed certain groups to take hold and here we are. So lead by example and hang it up and stay home and just remember the good ole days. The rest of us will enjoy and try and make the best out of bad situation because who knows we could cut all tags next year for the better of the herd

And see I would argue the exact opposite . All those screaming to listen to the professionals and data and trust the government seem to be the people that got the jab. But I’m not 60 either.

 

[Muley_73]

We are not 100% successful as hunters. Based on "data" from previous years they set numbers based on success. So you can issue tags knowing that most years it won't affect the herd too much and allow for new deer to come onto the landscape. If a tag means a "right" to a monster buck every year then someone has lied to you

“We should be ok” sounds like a great plan for success!

 

[elkhunterUT]

I never said the crash of mule deer was the sole fault of hunters. I have only stated that we have mismanaged our resource.

I generally defray because it’s a waste to argue with someone that’s under educated on the subject…and even worse when that individual believes they are.

What are your credentials and education Muley? I am genuinely curious. You are quick to discredit others ideas, so why should we think your line of thinking is the right one?

 

[elkhunter81]

And see I would argue the exact opposite . All those screaming to listen to the professionals and data and trust the government seem to be the people that got the jab. But I’m not 60 either.

I get it. We are a diverse and divided group. Nothing can be done to make us all happy. One side argues for less hunters the other side argues to not lose anymore than we have already lost. Because of this we will never be happy. Simple as that.

 

[elkhunter81]

“We should be ok” sounds like a great plan for success!

They sell 1 winning lottery ticket yet millions buy. I would rather have a chance then be told I don't get a chance

 

[Muley_73]

What are your credentials and education Muley? I am genuinely curious. You are quick to discredit others ideas, so why should we think your line of thinking is the right one?

I’m just a hillbilly. Spent time in Northern, Southern and Central UT. Grew up in Wildlife meetings, listening to Biologists and other hillbillies. Spent time on the winter range with USU biologist. Listen to their frustration with former students that had gone to work for the DWR and “knew better” than to be making the recommendations and decision they were now making. Read studies and listened. Did counts and watched areas change year to year. That has been over a 45 year period. Am I an expert…nope….do I understand the history and reality of all this…I do hold my own in my opinion I believe.

 

[elkhunter81]

So do we have more or less deer than we did 45 years ago. And do we have more or less less tags available than we did 45 years ago. If your answer is less, then I don't think hunting is the reason for the decline.

 

[schoolhousegrizz]

Vanilla still super curious what you think the buck to doe ratio should be. I genuinely want to know.

 

[elkhunterUT]

I’m just a hillbilly. Spent time in Northern, Southern and Central UT. Grew up in Wildlife meetings, listening to Biologists and other hillbillies. Spent time on the winter range with USU biologist. Listen to their frustration with former students that had gone to work for the DWR and “knew better” than to be making the recommendations and decision they were now making. Read studies and listened. Did counts and watched areas change year to year. That has been over a 45 year period. Am I an expert…nope….do I understand the history and reality of all this…I do hold my own in my opinion I believe.

Great-which is no different than many of us on here. The one thing we do share for sure is passion for hunting but none of us have all the answers. I choose to believe the biologists in place now do want to do what is best for our wildlife because I have talked with them and know they are just as passionate as I am about hunting.

Most people have good intentions.

 

[BradA]

I think if we want to see less tag cuts and a reduction year after year in general season deer tags then let the deer herd rebound first! The first step is to not increase tags in pv and the southern units but instead leave it at the amount they decreased it to a year or two ago so the new young can have a chance then the numbers will start to increase and therefore tags will increase but until they start allowing the deer herd to grow it will continue to decrease.

 

[jester]

Well, we are now down to just 64k buck deer tags in Utah. This is the fifth year in a row that tag numbers have been cut.

How many more need to be cut next year when this does exactly Jack squat for our deer herds? I mean, we are almost down to just 25% of the number of tags we had in the glory days. Do we need to drop all the way down to just 10%?

Maybe if we get down to just 25k tags that will be enough for some of ya’ll and Wade Heaton, who admittedly doesn’t care about biology in his decision making.

“Hunters” make me absolutely sick. Stay tuned if you’re interested in taking our wildlife back from antis and A holes.

Define "anti's" we know the "A Holes"..

 

[Deerlove]

Northern Utah is death and destruction with winter kill I saw a 70 on Monday and a 20 more this morning.

 

[Vanilla]

If you are saying you don't want more buck tags then why did you start a thread where you're so upset and say hunters make you sick? Seems strange.

All you have to do is read my post and you’ll know exactly why SOME supposed hunters make me sick. It’s not a hidden message. Some people speak clearly and make their intentions known openly. I choose to be one of those people. If you want to know what makes me sick, just read this thread.

 

[Vanilla]

What are your credentials and education Muley? I am genuinely curious. You are quick to discredit others ideas, so why should we think your line of thinking is the right one?

Muley is like Bess. He’s been given AMPLE opportunities to give his ideas, and he always declines. It’s easy to sit on the sideline and lob cheap shots. It takes a lot more intelligence and balls to actually put a plan forward. He won’t. Don’t waste your time.

 

[Muley_73]

Muley is like Bess. He’s been given AMPLE opportunities to give his ideas, and he always declines. It’s easy to sit on the sideline and lob cheap shots. It takes a lot more intelligence and balls to actually put a plan forward. He won’t. Don’t waste your time.

Lmao!!!! I’ve given plenty of input and ideas. Just like I answered elks question. You just get your feels hurt because I don’t chose to answer you or hoss and a few others. As far as lobbing shots from the side lines, I’ve been involved long before you even knew there was something to me involved in. Again the fact that you don’t know that shows exactly how under educated you actually are. Keep crying ace…you’re making a difference!!!

 

[Vanilla]

I’ve been involved long before you even knew there was something to me involved in.

Congrats on all your successes in Utah deer management! You should be proud.

Maybe if you stay involved we can get hunting ended entirely?

 

[schoolhousegrizz]

All you have to do is read my post and you’ll know exactly why SOME supposed hunters make me sick. It’s not a hidden message. Some people speak clearly and make their intentions known openly. I choose to be one of those people. If you want to know what makes me sick, just read this thread.

So what should the buck to doe ratio be?

 

[Vanilla]

So what should the buck to doe ratio be?

I’ve stated probably no less than 100 times on this forum I don’t like the buck:doe ratio management style. That ain’t even how I’d prefer we do it. However, it is the plan we have so they should manage according to the plan. No disregard it and the biology to back it up to push the trophy hunting mentality that is killing our way of life as hunters.

Enjoy that LL while begging for everyone else to stay home though. Between that admission by you and Muley73 taking credit for the long term successes of Utah management, this thread achieved way more than I’d ever intended it to.

 

[schoolhousegrizz]

I’ve stated probably no less than 100 times on this forum I don’t like the buck:doe ratio management style. That ain’t even how I’d prefer we do it. However, it is the plan we have so they should manage according to the plan. No disregard it and the biology to back it up to push the trophy hunting mentality that is killing our way of life as hunters.

Enjoy that LL while begging for everyone else to stay home though. Between that admission by you and Muley73 taking credit for the long term successes of Utah management, this thread achieved way more than I’d ever intended it to.

Haha, you see Vanilla you wont say what you think the buck to doe ratio should be because you know what will follow. I said I am fine with what it is, even though it is the LOWEST IN THE WEST! If you want more tags then you will lower the buck to doe ratio. Just say it, that's what you want. It's fine, but own it!
You asked me what my number was and I told you. Now I'm asking you what your number is.

You can't have it both ways. If you want more tags you will have a lower Buck to doe ratio.

 

[schoolhousegrizz]

I want more tags also. I'd say give out a million tags if we can keep the buck to doe ratio where it needs to be. You see the problem is we don't have enough deer but that is the problem right now so you must give out less tags to keep them buck to doe ratio where it is. If you want more tags than the buck to doe ratio will drop, so what is it?

 

[Vanilla]

SHG, I know you think you’re in one big “gotcha” moment right now, and that’s kind of cute, but you need to snap out of reality.

You are absolutely NOT okay with how it is. You’ve stated multiple times you want them to cut tags to boost up the B ratio. We went the rounds on this on two or three other threads recently. Don’t hand me a piece of dog crap and tell me it’s a hot dog.

I’ve also been clear with what I want. I want as many people to be able to hunt and still have healthy deer herds. Since I don’t even pretend to be a biologist on the internet like some, I put my trust in those that actually are capable of telling us what that is. I want us to follow sound data and science. Not uneducated public outcry like we constantly see on this forum.

Heck, read muley73’s own statements here. He tries to talk out both sides of his mouth and say he has been involved for longer than I knew there was something to be involved in, then tells us about the decades of mismanagement. I guess he is using those posts to apologize to all of us for how badly he’s helped screw things up? He feigns some knowledge none of the rest of us but Whoopi has, and yet they both have actually given zero legitimate ideas to help the deer herd, even though they’ve both been given dozens upon dozens (if not hundreds upon hundreds) of chances to do so. Yet these are the clowns Wade Heaton is saying “screw the people that have data and information, I’m going with the clown show!”

If that is your method of management, you’ll fit in great with the last 40 years. I’m sure it’s bound to turn around eventually. But until then, you didn’t “gotcha” anyone.

 

[schoolhousegrizz]

SHG, I know you think you’re in one big “gotcha” moment right now, and that’s kind of cute, but you need to snap out of reality.

You are absolutely NOT okay with how it is. You’ve stated multiple times you want them to cut tags to boost up the B ratio. We went the rounds on this on two or three other threads recently. Don’t hand me a piece of dog crap and tell me it’s a hot dog.

I’ve also been clear with what I want. I want as many people to be able to hunt and still have healthy deer herds. Since I don’t even pretend to be a biologist on the internet like some, I put my trust in those that actually are capable of telling us what that is. I want us to follow sound data and science. Not uneducated public outcry like we constantly see on this forum.

Heck, read muley73’s own statements here. He tries to talk out both sides of his mouth and say he has been involved for longer than I knew there was something to be involved in, then tells us about the decades of mismanagement. I guess he is using those posts to apologize to all of us for how badly he’s helped screw things up? He feigns some knowledge none of the rest of us but Whoopi has, and yet they both have actually given zero legitimate ideas to help the deer herd, even though they’ve both been given dozens upon dozens (if not hundreds upon hundreds) of chances to do so. Yet these are the clowns Wade Heaton is saying “screw the people that have data and information, I’m going with the clown show!”

If that is your method of management, you’ll fit in great with the last 40 years. I’m sure it’s bound to turn around eventually. But until then, you didn’t “gotcha” anyone.

We both know I gotcha. I am honestly fine with the way it is. I did some reflecting thinking about my kids getting tags and what it's like for others who don't have a lifetime license. I can admit I was probably being a little selfish before. What you guys need to admit now is that Utah gives out plenty of tags, we manage the buck to doe ratios lower than anyone in the west. There's no way to give more tags unless you want the buck to doe ratio to go lower. Yes we need more deer but right now we don't have them so the numbers are what they are. We are definitely on the side of opportunity versus quality, but that's fine. But quit acting like we are managing everything like the Henries, we give out a ton of tags compared to how many bucks we have.

I'm even throwing the dwr a bone. They're staying within their plan doing what they need to do ( for the most part )with tag numbers, good for them.

 

[elkassassin]

Oh My!

You've Told Me On Many Occasions I Didn't Know WTF I Was Talking About When I Said The BUCK TO DOE Ratio Management SUCKS!

But Look At You Now!

And I Quote It From The KING:

I don’t like the buck:doe ratio management style

Well Hot F'N Damn!

It Might Be The Plan But The DWR'S & Your PLAN SUCKS!

You're SLOWLY Learning A Little But It's DAMN SLOWLY!

I’ve stated probably no less than 100 times on this forum I don’t like the buck:doe ratio management style. That ain’t even how I’d prefer we do it. However, it is the plan we have so they should manage according to the plan. No disregard it and the biology to back it up to push the trophy hunting mentality that is killing our way of life as hunters.

Enjoy that LL while begging for everyone else to stay home though. Between that admission by you and Muley73 taking credit for the long term successes of Utah management, this thread achieved way more than I’d ever intended it to.

 

[Dangbig]

I really don’t think cutting tags will help,
The hunter success % will not affect the buck population one way or the other.
The misuse of funds not buying up winter range and the push for more elk on the landscape will never allow for the deer to rebound.

 

[elkassassin]

Ya!

That's a Couple Of The Items On The List!

I really don’t think cutting tags will help,
The hunter success % will not affect the buck population one way or the other.
The misuse of funds not buying up winter range and the push for more elk on the landscape will never allow for the deer to rebound.

 

[elkassassin]

The KING Has Really Got His Panties In A Wad!

Have You CHEWED THE DWR'S & THE WB'S Ass Niller?

 

[ridgetops]

We both know I gotcha. I am honestly fine with the way it is. I did some reflecting thinking about my kids getting tags and what it's like for others who don't have a lifetime license. I can admit I was probably being a little selfish before. What you guys need to admit now is that Utah gives out plenty of tags, we manage the buck to doe ratios lower than anyone in the west. There's no way to give more tags unless you want the buck to doe ratio to go lower. Yes we need more deer but right now we don't have them so the numbers are what they are. We are definitely on the side of opportunity versus quality, but that's fine. But quit acting like we are managing everything like the Henries, we give out a ton of tags compared to how many bucks we have.

I'm even throwing the dwr a bone. They're staying within their plan doing what they need to do with tag numbers, good for them.

The O/S unit has a 20/100 average ratio for the past three year. That's three over the 15-17 it's managed for but the board still cut 500 tags this year just because no other unit in the central region had a proposed tag increase. That was just a plain ole bonehead thing to do. The board should be ashamed of themselves, instead of patting themselves on the back.

 

[southernutahhunter]

Vanilla wanted to know units that are under objective that increased tags. Beaver,Monroe and Dutton. They sure followed the science in the southern units. $$$$. Science.

 

[middlefork]

https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1166&context=usupress_pubs

Page 54 is a good start

I'm willing to read more if someone provides the links.

 

[schoolhousegrizz]

The O/S unit has a 20/100 average ratio for the past three year. That's three over the 15-17 it's managed for but the board still cut 500 tags this year just because no other unit in the central region had a proposed tag increase. That was just a plain ole bonehead thing to do. The board should be ashamed of themselves, instead of patting themselves on the back.

If all that's true, and I haven't looked into it, then I would agree that doesn't make sense. We all just need to be honest instead of trying to defend our personal interests.

 

[schoolhousegrizz]

Vanilla wanted to know units that are under objective that increased tags. Beaver,Monroe and Dutton. They sure followed the science in the southern units. $$$$. Science.

Wow, doesn't make sense!

 

[elkassassin]

Niller thinks All The Changes Are Great Cuzz They Were Made By The Pro's!

How's That Treatin You Just About Now Niller?

 

[Muley_73]

Congrats on all your successes in Utah deer management! You should be proud.

Maybe if you stay involved we can get hunting ended entirely?

Vanilla,
without guys like me the herd would be completely gone. Because of guys like you. Yes others factors have hammered our herds but guys like you that are opportunity above all else have given the DWR the justification to float along with management.

 

[Muley_73]

Vanilla,
Funny how you avoid the numbers when I put them out there. Do you really believe we should issue more tags than actual bucks we have in the herd. When he have no control over the other factors that kill bucks. Predators, highways, weather snow and drought, lose of habitat, disease.
You’re telling me we should ride that line without control of those things that close? Say the number is off by even a little. Or how about this…how many of those 335,000 deer including 50,000 bucks live on private unhuntable land during the season. Say it’s 25% , that puts your total number of bucks that are huntable at 37,500, and we are issuing 65k tags? And success rates are near 50%. That’s gonna leave only 5000 bucks …with factoring in the losses from the things listed above that we can not control. Damn all this time it looks lucky that some private is actually managing and leaving some bucks the breed come Nov or us have nots would have NOTHING.
Implement antler restriction
Primitive weapon only units
Limit technology
Study elk impact
Shorter seasons
Shutdown some areas and create rest zones for deer. (Huge factor according to USU biologist, he’s done the studies they are ignored)
Most of these options give a path to maintain or even increase tags yet the DWR will not support them. And the public that you are asking to raise up only pays attention for a split second of each year.

 

[Vanilla]

Vanilla,
without guys like me the herd would be completely gone. Because of guys like you. Yes others factors have hammered our herds but guys like you that are opportunity above all else have given the DWR the justification to float along with management.

Keep telling yourself that if it helps you sleep at night, sport.

 

[Vanilla]

Niller thinks All The Changes Are Great Cuzz They Were Made By The Pro's!

How's That Treatin You Just About Now Niller?

I don’t think any of the changes are good. Wade Heaton ain’t a pro.

And you ask if I have chewed the WB’s butt yet? Standby, Whoop! It’s gonna be a good show.