Tag Grab

yatran

yatran

Member
Messages
60
Ok so I'm a bit new here and a little bit confused, maybe some of you wiser sportsman can help me out. It seems to me as sportsman we should be joining together against the anti-hunters, the tree huggers, Obama and the wolves. But what I'm finding here is a lot of name calling and finger pointing among ourselves. One specific topic that seems to really fire people up is the conservation tags sold to the highest bidder. I have been putting in for OIL tags and LE tags for many years without ever drawing one, So I can see why taking tags away from the average joe (ME) to sell to the highest bidder (NOT ME) would fire people up. Understandably the argument has been, ?Our chances of ever drawing one of the few tags available are hard enough. Why take these precious tags away from me and hurt my chances by selling the tag to the rich guy?? This is a question that I can surely identify with.

As you can probably tell already, today was a little slow at work and so I decided to do a little reading. I went to the DWR website and started reading the Utah Annual Big Game Report. It is an interesting read. I'm sure some of you have already read it. Here is the link?

http://wildlife.utah.gov/hunting/biggame/pdf/annual_reports/10_bg_report.pdf

The report has a section for each of Utah?s big game species. At the end of each section there is a graph that shows the number of hunters in the field for that specific species and how many of that species was harvested annually. The graphs did a great job of showing that in almost every species, there was a DRAMATIC increase in the number of hunters and number of animals harvested right after/around 1997. It was not like the numbers had been increasing since 1970 and we have gradually reached the numbers we are at today. Most of the numbers were growing very slowly or flat lining. Then in 1997 shot right up. (you should really look at the graphs they really make the point, but ill try to illustrate here) The following is the number of each species harvested in 1997 compared to the number harvested in 2010.

Rocky Mtn. Sheep went from 3 to 34!!!!
Rocky Mtn. Goats went from 19 to 110!!!!!
Desert Sheep went from 28 to 48!!!!!
Bull Moose went from 160 to 360!!!!!
Bull Elk went from 9,000 to 16,000!!!!!

I started thinking about this and wondered, what was it that caused this DRAMATIC increase? Was it the fact that a bunch of sportsman got on the internet and started calling each other names? That couldn't have been it; Al Gore barely had the internet going in 1997! Then I started reading about conservation tags. This is what I found? ?Since 1997, the Utah Conservation Permit Program has allowed more than $12 Million to enhance wildlife habitat, transplant and start new flocks and herds, and other on-the-ground activities. The Utah Conservation Permit program has contributed greatly to Utah?s dramatic increase in both quantity and quality of elk, moose, bighorn, bison, antelope, mule deer, goats, and wild turkey. 100% of your purchase price of a Conservation Permit voucher goes into wildlife conservation.? (http://www.sfw.net/in-action/)

Let me say that I am not a member of SFW nor have I ever been. I'm just an average guy who was curious about all the arguing and stumbled across some interesting numbers. Maybe I'm drinking the ?cool aid? SFW is making, but it seems to me that whatever they are doing IS working. I'm not saying they are perfect. I don't know if the directors are getting rich, driving new trucks, or passing some of the tags to their buddies, but really, I DON'T CARE! If they can increase my odds and my family?s odds of getting a OIL tag or a LE tag, God Bless ?em! I have been putting in for Deseret sheep for a long time. I would much rather see 4 of the 48 available tags raffled off every year to the rich guy (decreasing my odds by .001%) IF we can have 96 tags to draw from in 2022. (If we stay at 48 tags the only way I'll ever draw is if all you old guys putting in for sheep ahead of me die!) :)

If I'm wrong I would love to hear why, I am not pushing ANYBODY'S agenda, I just really want to know. But can we forgo the name calling and personal attacks? Didn?t we grow out of the ?my dad is stronger than your dad? stage a long time ago?
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-09-12 AT 01:34PM (MST)[p]I really see no need to start another thread regarding SFW like you have done here. If you haven't figured things out and are still confused after all the information that has been presented regarding this tag grab, then you need to go back and read the other threads dealing with the way our nation has always considered wildlife, as well as the NAM. If that doesn't convince you that SFW is out to lunch with their schemes and doing a 180 regardng the NAM and the average Joe, then it's really too bad. However, you're not the only one to have swallowed their koolaid, as some guys are calling it, but if you haven't done some serious reading on what they are doing to circumvent proper procedures so that everyone has an equal chance at a tag, then it's a shame. One thing you mention in your post is $12 million that has been used to enhance habitat. One outright lie alone in there I will touch on and then quit is that it says that 100% of the money from those tag vouchers goes into wildlife conservation. How can that be when they gross over $3 million a year just from the EXPO? Even if it cost them 1/3rd of that money to run the thing, which it darn sure doesn't, you would still have 2 million dollars a year left. That would be two times the 12 million dollars they say they have put into habitat since 1997. So where did the other million dollars a year that isn't accounted for go? Try lobbyist fees to Suzanne Gilstrap, consultant fees to Don Peay, trips, salaries, donations that have nothing to do with habitat preservation, etc. just to start! No organization worth it's salt spends 2/3 of the money taken in to get the end result they are talking about with the remaining 1/3! I will not even comment on your statement about them getting fancy cars, etc, as long as you have a better chance at a tag, which is not the case and they haven't proven any such thing. Here is a C/P of just that one small section of their BS:
Conservation Permits

$12.5 Million for Wildlife

Since 1997, the Utah Conservation Permit Program has allowed more than $12 Million to enhance wildlife habitat, transplant and start new flocks and herds, and other on-the-ground activities. The Utah Conservation Permit program has contributed greatly to Utah?s dramatic increase in both quantity and quality of elk, moose, bighorn, bison, antelope, mule deer, goats, and wild turkey. 100% of your purchase price of a Conservation Permit voucher goes into wildlife conservation. While some initially thought this was taking 5% of the permits away from sportsmen in the normal state public draw, hunting opportunity has dramatically increased in the state of Utah, and these permits have played a large roll in increasing habitat, thus increasing herds and flocks of game. In a recent survey, 75% of Utah sportsmen supported this program. The organizations involved in marketing these permits include Sportsmen for Fish & Wildlife, National Wild Turkey Federation (NWTF), Wild Sheep Foundation (WSF), Mule Deer Foundation (MDF), Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation (RMEF) and Safari Club International (SCI).



***
What they don't say is how many million dollars SFW has taken in at their annual EXPO alone that HASN'T gone back into the habitat where it was supposed to!!! One last thing is that they say that in a poll 75% of Utah sportsmen support the program. Were you questioned in that poll? I don't believe I have heard one member on this or another big website I'm on say they have been asked that question in any poll! SFW is certainly good about putting out BS, including those ridiculous figures! Now they are up trying to convince the Governor and Legislature that they are speaking for the majority of the sportsmen, which is pure hogwash! That's as nice as I can be to you on this subject and if anybody else comes on this thread I hope they will be as polite.
 
Yea that sfw mo, try to steal the tags as the sportsman sleep, then say we need to stick together. I'm not buying it, i smell a troll, drinking LOTS of coolaid, go to the AZ forum and do some reading.
 
Well yatran,
It matters not how much good the SFW has done. You can point out the good but these fact matter none to the staunch anti-SFW crowd. There will always be those who think you're drunk on the coolaid if you try to credit SFW for doing any good. Some guys are either short sighted or too young to remember what hunting, in the State, used to be. While the deer numbers are down (like all over the west), every other big game animal has benefitted from SFW projects. The deer will too with the added predator control and more management control. Lots of habitat project have been done so what's left? Predators!

As for the expo and most of the associate gains for SFW, there are funds which are returned to wildlife, some are used by the org, there are 200 tags which go back to the average Joe (whoever that is), some are auctioned to the high-rollers (we all know it's not us). ***check on what % of your DONATED dollar "hits the ground" with the Red Cross***. Remember the entry charge or permit application money at the expo is NOT a donation. It's an admission fee!!!!

I think there have been billions of dollars made at all sorts of expos where none of the money went for wildlife but I'm sure they're not stealing YOUR tags.

You should have read enough to realize how fashionable it is to stand, beat your chest and name-call the SFW and all the "stupid" members. You're begging to be berated if you try to point out and positive about the SFW. Some guys just don't want to hear it. Their minds are made up and they feel a need to "fit in".

Zeke
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-09-12 AT 03:48PM (MST)[p]I wouldn't call it fashionable to out SFW, more like a public service to make everyone aware of the cancer they are. You want em in UT, great. I feel sorry for the regular sportsman there. The AK & AZ fast ones are what's pissing people off. Its too late for UT (sadly) but that doesn't mean those of us that care about the rest of the west should remain silent. I've read enough to know Zeke is a pal of Don's and SFW so I know you'll never see SFW the way the rest of us do.


"Whatever you are, be a good one."
- Abraham Lincoln
 
There was a polite question so I will hold my smart mouth.

1. How many hunters have we lost since 1997?
2. What is currently happening with mule deer, which were hunted at one time by 250,000 people?
3. How was it biolocially necessary to hunt antelope island?
4. How has public management of wildlife failed, needing to be replaced by landowners managing their game when 70% of Utah is public land, including the very "tropy units" that SFW likes to trumpet?
5. How is it good for the public hunter, trying to draw a tag, waiting 10-15 years between hunt draws, plus another 5 for a waiting period, when in utah you can bypass draws, and waiting periods and just buy a tag?


This isn't about name calling. For me, I grew up hunting in a group of family and friends that at some points included over 30 guys. We hunted the same areas year after year, some years killing some not, but every year it was an event. Now, many of our group simply gave up. Limited tags, limited season lengths, etc... just made it not worth it to all but the most passionate of our group. We hunted both public and private lands, owned by guys who stopped by for supper and a cocktail, and asked only that we close the gates.

Now, I hunt perhaps the most overtagged unit in the state, the manti. Our group is whittled down, and will be worse this year with decreased numbers. The DWR is constantly pushing our landowners to go CWMU. The deer are gone, the elk we watched become an excellent herd have been killed off so the "conservation" groups can build the Pahvant. I started putting in for an elk on this unit with my dad, who died before he ever got to hunt it. I am currently on a waiting period, and at 38 am pretty sure I will only have one more chance to hunt these elk once more in my life. Denny Austad hunts the best units in Utah every year, no draw, no waiting.

Now I read how despite a loss of over 140,000 hunters, and season lengths, SFW wants their deep pocketed members to have unlimited seasons on any private ground they can find. SFW wants to turn the entire state, in fact the entire west, into Northern Utah, which is almost entirely locked up to CWMU's. In the mid 90's, Byron Batemans son Brett, with whom I worked came around to drum up membership in a newly forming group(SFW) which had the idea of being a advocate for hunters to either work with, and in some cases against the DWR. They were all about the average joe, getting better hunting for him, and his kids in the future. I was newly married and money was tight so I held off. Look at it now. Which average guy bought a tag at the auction? What public, non trophy unit has SFW invested in? How was offering a tag on antelope island to the public only AFTER the bought tag had 5 days good for the average joe?

I joined DU. I realize they play the money game as well, HOWEVER, since I joined I hunt ducks 107 days a year, hunt record numbers of ducks, and hunt ground the DU is trying to open either by themselves or in partnerships. SFW is for closing access, limiting tags, and creating special rules for deep pockets. They are currently against me and my interests so I oppose them.

By the way, PETA, The WWF, and humane society have gotten rid of 0 hunters. SFW and their friends, about 140,000. You tell me who the "antis" are.


When they came for the road hunters I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for the oppurtunists I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for the public land hunters I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for me there was no one left to say anything!
 
I respect your opiniom and the mature manner in which you responded.

I do know Don and have no reason to deny it. While I'm not part of the innercircle, or any circle for that matter, I can see the good which has come from SFW. Some of the SFW things I don't agree with but I rarely agree 100% of the time with everyone. I suspect we've all mis-spoken or mis-stepped a few time (especially if you're married! LOL)

Topgun and I agree about 98% of the time but we do not on this subject. I suspect we still respect each other and have never belittle or berated one another.

Well done,
Zeke
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-09-12 AT 04:32PM (MST)[p]Zeke---One thing I would like to get straight, and that I mentioned recently in another thread, is that I don't disagree that SFW may have done a lot of on the ground stuff out in Utah. What I'm adamantly against is the way they get the money with those high dollar and raffle tags, as well as no transparency as to where all the money they take in is going. It would be very interesting to know what percentage of money they take in goes back on the ground, but everything is so muddled up it's impossible to know. It boggles my mind that it seems that those speaking positively of them don't seem to care whether it's 75% or 7.5%!!!
 
Hoss,
This isn't my battle but I'll respond a bit. I am NOT THE SFW but just a lowly member.

I suspect that you will not, and could not, attribute all your "issues" to SFW. I respect your opinion and intellegence so don't throw the blame blanket over SFW for everything. It makes for good reading when we blame everything on SFW, as though they had full control over everything in your hunting life. I read your posts pretty closely so I know you're smart enough to seperate fact from hype and we both know SFW is not to blame for all your problems. Just like the US Government is not to blame for all my problems.

The big issue seems to be because of some guy who has enough money to "butt up" in line. I suppose it's enough for some to hate everything about SFW and ignore any good which has been done. You might not have seen the increase of elk, sheep, bison, turkey, goats etc. While the SFW cannot take all the credit for these huge gains, it's unfair to lay all the blame on their steps for everything else.

Respectfully, Zeke
 
Hello Mr Topgun,
I'm sure that what I have to say has been said before but maybe you'll see a different perspective. I'm not the mouth-piece for SFW but rather just a member.

Expo tags: These are dispersed through application at the expo. The tag fees go to the DWR, the application fee goes to SFW and was set up this way because of the economic value which the expo brings to Ut. This money if freely given by sportsman for a crack at a tag. It is NOT a donation although some think of it as such.

Auction tags: These are a public resource which is auctioned to the wealthier public and a portion of this money (??????? I don't have the numbers either) is kept by SFW and some returned to the DWR. The DWR receives vastly more money than if the tags were distributed through conventional means thus benefiting wildlife even more.

Remember, expo entrance fees, application fees and tag fees are not donations and are freely given by the public. The expo tag and auction tag money is private money which is given by the richest and poorest among us for the chance at a tag. There are those who wish not to apply and most of us cannot bid but that's our free right.

While there are things that I would change and I always have the wish to learn more, I have to remember that the tags are returned to the public and a greater amount of money is raised for the benefit of wildlife. Oh, and not all SFW are crazy, lazy, rich a-holes! LOL

sincerely, Zeke
 
Are we seriously going to complain about a couple deer harvested off of Antelope Island for money, are you serious??
Ok then.....lets keep letting them die of old age out there, raise the entrance fees for bikers and hikers to enjoy the mountain and throw Denny Austads $160K "donation to the Island" in the garbage. Jeeeeezust
 
If you are gonna start using numbers to make your case then use all of the numbers.

In 1993 there was nearly 250,000 mule deer hunters in utah.

SFW stormed the capital in 1994 and in 2012 there will be about 80,000 -85,000 deer tags. And the quality of deer has not increased.

So don't be like the politicians and only use what numbers make your case. Use all the numbers.

There are less hunting opportunities today then there were when the SFW started. This is a FACT.....

So if they get credit for more Elk and deer and sheep then they also take blame for less deer.

Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
The next buck to have a fawn will be the
1st.
 
Topgun

who made you the post police? your not doing a very good job by the way! Hoss if nobody wants to go hunting or camping with you if they don't have a tag you need to find better friends !
 
Tony my old friend, how are you?

While it would be nice to totally blame SFW for the decline of the mule deer, it's not the sane thing to do..... just like we can't give them ALL the credit when things go well. We have the DWR too!

What has SFW done to intentionally decimate the deer herd? Build homes in the foothills? breed coyotes? put more cars on the roads? These are some of the biggest reasons for decline and SFW didn't do any one of them. Oh, and increased elk don't help deer either.

I also don't think Don can sit on the border with a net and keep the wolves out of Utah, although some blame him for everything. Remember, he didn't plant the damn things in the first place!

Best regards Tony,
Zeke
 
RE: Tag Grab"
Posted by coondog on Mar-09-12 at 05:41 PM
Topgun
who made you the post police? your not doing a very good job by the way!


WTF are you talking about? I made comments just like everyone else on this thread and if you don't like em don't read em!!!
 
>RE: Tag Grab"
>Posted by coondog on Mar-09-12 at
>05:41 PM
>Topgun
>who made you the post police?
>your not doing a very
>good job by the way!
>
>
>
>WTF are you talking about?
>I made comments just like
>everyone else on this thread
>and if you don't like
>em don't read em!!!

sorry topgun i thought you were the one who said their was no need to start a new post about SFW . my bad please forgive me.
 
Hmmmm where to start. First off thanks for keeping it a mature conversation. That was my real purpose, to have a civilized discussion to help inform me of what all the controversy is about. There are some good comments from a couple guys whose opinion I really respect. Tony, I listened to your show forever, in fact just shot my Hoyt bow yesterday that I won from your radio show a few years back. Didn't shoot it very well! (not your fault!) But thanks again! I Love my bow! I have shot mule deer with it and taken it to Africa twice shot impala, wart hog, gemsbuck, eland and what we think will be a top 25 Nyala. (haven't had it officially scored yet)All thanks to you! you can see some of the pics if you want in the Africa section somewhere.

From your comments, it seems to me that you feel I posted these numbers to PROVE that SFW was the savior of wildlife, I did not. I was bored and decided to go to the DWR website and do some reading. Like I said I did not pick and choose selective numbers to prove ANY point. I stumbled across the 2010 report, saw the graphs and was shocked at the change that happened in wildlife in 1997. (have any of you looked at those charts, Im sure Fishon and Zeke have. it really is INTERESTING) Then I went to SWF page and saw the claim that since 1997 SFW has raised 12.5 million to help wildlife. Seemed like not too much of a stretch to see some kind of correlation. You said that there are less opportunities to hunt in Utah, it seems to me there are more opportunities to hunt everything else EXCEPT Mule Deer. Is that a correct statement? I agree that we have a major mule deer problem in the state. But not sure its the SFW fault. I guess what I'm asking is, if it's not SFW and the sale of the tags that caused the dramatic increase in opportunits to hunt sheep, moose, goats, elk, then SPECIFICALLY WHO or WHAT DID? thanks for your insight guys! Speaking of goats, Tony did you ever draw your goat tag?
 
coondog (197 posts)
Mar-09-12, 08:00 PM (MST)
16. "RE: Tag Grab"
>RE: Tag Grab"
>Posted by coondog on Mar-09-12 at
>05:41 PM
>Topgun
>who made you the post police?
>your not doing a very
>good job by the way!
>
>
>
>WTF are you talking about?
>I made comments just like
>everyone else on this thread
>and if you don't like
>em don't read em!!!
sorry topgun i thought you were the one who said their was no need to start a new post about SFW . my bad please forgive me.


So let me get this straight. You can come on here and tell me what I shouldn't post, but I shouldn't make a comment like that ot the OP? Sounds to me like that's the pot calling the kettle black there coondog, LOL!
 
Zeke and Yatran

I appreciate and respect your stances and opinions and support over the years. Groups have done good on many things and I have always said that, they have also in my opinion and from my studies done the most harm to mule deer in this state.

Please hang with me as I explain how I see things.

Yes we have more Goats, elk, sheep etc to hunt. That is indisputable. We also have less deer to hunt and that is equally indisputable.

And we have many less people hunting and less opportunity to hunt and that is indisputable.

We must look at things as a whole, and hunting as a whole in this state is down over the last 18 years. This is indisputable. Opportunity to hunt is also down as a whole. Time being able to hunt is also down as a whole. Places to hunt is also down as a whole. Ability to hunt several animals is down as a whole. Ability to hunt with family and friends is down as a whole. Ability to hunt with different weapons is down as a whole.

Those are facts.

Utah is the ONLY Western state that you can only put in for 1 once in a lifetime hunt and 1 BUCk,BUll or Antelope each year. It is also the only state that says if you draw one of them you cannot draw the other. This was instituted by who do you think?

You will also lose bonus points you have for the other species that you put in for and paid for over the years cause now you have to choose only one each year to apply for.

We use to be able to hunt with all 3 weapons, That is gone and do you know who was behind that? You use to hunt statewide and that is gone, do you know who was behind that? You use to hunt on a region wide basis and that is gone, do you know who is behind that? There use to be statewide archery and it is gone, do you know who is behind that.

When Utahs mule deer herd was at an all time high there was 1,000,000 domestic sheep in this state and only about 5,000 elk. Ranchers fixed fences, shot predators and maintained water sources.

Over the last 18 years groups have bought grazing permits to move sheep off the mountain, grown the elk herds statewide and basically took the rancher off the mountain so he no longer maintains water sources and kills predators.

They did this in the name of wildlife and wild sheep. Well millions and millions of dollars and countless hours have been spent on this project and for what? A handful more sheep permits?

They said we are converting the grazing permits into wildlife feed and that the deer would benefit from it. Well all that has happened is that a few more guys got to hunt sheep and the elk exploded and have over run the deer.

The domestic sheep were a mule deers best friend. Elk are worse on deer than coyotes. An elk eats 4 times as much food as a deer and displaces deer not just in winter range but also on summer range. Elk eat the best feed and the deer are sucking hind tit.

NO ranchers are killing predators or fixing water sources. And our deer herds are plummeting at an alarming rate.

SO though there is more of a "variety" to hunt, there is grossly less opportunity to hunt.

Groups claim that Utah has done more habitat work and more predator control then all the other states combined. What do we have to show for it? Less opportunity.

The model with which Utah is operating under is a bad one and one that is a mule deers worst nightmare.

You want deer herds back then greatly reduce the elk and the places they habitat and flood the hills with domestic sheep again.

There is NO success stories with Utahs deer herds. The henry mountains is not a success story, it is a travesty. Few people will ever hunt it and that is a crime.

My son and daughter did not shoot their 1st deer in Utah and that is a shame. In fact neither of them has ever shot a Utah deer. Why you ask? Because this state and the groups in charge are not into "tomorrows hunter" no they are into the "rich and trophy" hunter.

Can either of you tell me that the opportunity for a few that get to hunt these other species is worth the price of so many not being able to hunt at all?

It is not worth it to me.

Thanks again for your support over the years. I am quit sure there will be those that blast me on here for this post but the facts are the facts. The model we use for deer is not working and will not work. SO if people are happy with a once in a lifetine hunt model over the opportunity to hunt then I guess Utah is the place for them.

I should draw my goat this year and then be done with my once in a lifetime in Utah. It has taken 16 years if I draw this year. Not gonna wait that long again for another species.

Glad the hoyt is treating you well, mine does too.

Best wishes to both of you and would love to have lunch sometime.












Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
The next buck to have a fawn will be the
1st.
 
Tony

are you sure you will will lose your bonus points? i thought the only way you lose them is if you didn't apply at all.
 
>coondog (197 posts)
>Mar-09-12, 08:00 PM (MST)
>16. "RE: Tag Grab"
>>RE: Tag Grab"
>>Posted by coondog on Mar-09-12 at
>>05:41 PM
>>Topgun
>>who made you the post police?
>>your not doing a very
>>good job by the way!
>>
>>
>>
>>WTF are you talking about?
>>I made comments just like
>>everyone else on this thread
>>and if you don't like
>>em don't read em!!!
>sorry topgun i thought you were
>the one who said their
>was no need to start
>a new post about SFW
>. my bad please forgive
>me.
>
>
>So let me get this straight.
> You can come on
>here and tell me what
>I shouldn't post, but I
>shouldn't make a comment like
>that ot the OP?
>Sounds to me like that's
>the pot calling the kettle
>black there coondog, LOL!
>
>

lol topgun 3437 posts

so it was you who told him not to start a new thread that did not agree with you and Zim.are you the kettle or the pot?
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-10-12 AT 05:30PM (MST)[p]What the he** does my post count and Zim have to do with anything? In case you haven't noticed, that are no more than four or five members on this whole site that have come on in favor of SFW and their way of doing things, so Zim and I sure aren't in the minority! Anyway, it was only a one sentence comment on my feelings and didn't tell him what he could or couldn't do. It was basically that I thought he could have put his post in one of the ongoing threads so as not to garbage up the Forums. In fact, it was very similar to some comments that were made as recent as this past week where other members said Founder should just start a Forum pertaining to SFW because there were so many threads it was hard to keep track of things. Why is it that the few posts you put up generally seem to be derogatory towards others?
 
I've never hunted Utah, have never applied for PPs or tags, and have no intentions to ever hunt there! Why do you ask? I will say that when I visited Zion Canyon on vacation one September that I thought it was one of the prettiest places I have ever seen! I can't say the same for the country from SLC heading towards Reno though. It was different, but not what I care for.
 
topgun

why are you so against sfw?

you say that only 4-5 MM's are for sfw . I only see 4-5 MM's that are totally against sfw . you and zim being the most vocal.zim claims to have points for deer but doesn't have a clue to utahs seasons or hunts!! you hate the tag grab but if your not in the game why complain? lets do a survey . who is against sfw but still went to the expo and put in for the tags? who thinks sfw is OK but needs some revamping ? and who would be willing to stand up and make sfw better?
 
>You can count me in on
>the side that thinks SFW
>can go suck a$$.

thanks 1 against . well spoken. whats you alternate plan?
 
I'm not going to get into a pizzing match with you when you make the silly statement you just did. There are hardly any of the people posting on this website or on the OYOA site that wouldn't shoot Don Peay and his sidekicks Ryan Benson, Byron Bateman, and the Gilstraps on sight, LOL! I could give a rip whether you get any Utah tags, but I will certainly stand up and be vocal in support of those of us in other states who don't want to see the debacle that is SFW/BGF worm their way into other states like they are trying to do in AZ right now. End of discussion!!!
 
>I'm not going to get into
>a pizzing match with you
>when you make the silly
>statement you just did.
>There are hardly any of
>the people posting on this
>website or on the OYOA
>site that wouldn't shoot Don
>Peay and his sidekicks Ryan
>Benson, Byron Bateman, and the
>Gilstraps on sight, LOL!
>I could give a rip
>whether you get any Utah
>tags, but I will certainly
>stand up and be vocal
>in support of those of
>us in other states who
>don't want to see the
>debacle that is SFW/BGF worm
>their way into other states
>like they are trying to
>do in AZ right now.
> End of discussion!!!

not pizzing just trying to get some answers sorry to offend you.
what silly statement are you talking about?
 
>I'm not going to get into
>a pizzing match with you
>when you make the silly
>statement you just did.
>There are hardly any of
>the people posting on this
>website or on the OYOA
>site that wouldn't shoot Don
>Peay and his sidekicks Ryan
>Benson, Byron Bateman, and the
>Gilstraps on sight, LOL!
>I could give a rip
>whether you get any Utah
>tags, but I will certainly
>stand up and be vocal
>in support of those of
>us in other states who
>don't want to see the
>debacle that is SFW/BGF worm
>their way into other states
>like they are trying to
>do in AZ right now.
> End of discussion!!!


i wouldn't use the term "shoot on sight " unless your talking about wolves. that might be considered a "silly statement "among big boys. not the end of discussion!!!
 
The silly statement was that only 4 or 5 are against the SFW. There are three times that many on this thread alone, so you obviously can't count. Now that's the end of the discussion on my part with you. Good night and sweet dreams!!!
 
>The silly statement was that only
>4 or 5 are against
>the SFW. There are
>three times that many on
>this thread alone, so you
>obviously can't count. Now
>that's the end of the
>discussion on my part with
>you. Good night and
>sweet dreams!!!


i'm not tired yet . lets talk about shooten more people! and how we hate sfw LOL.
 
>The silly statement was that only
>4 or 5 are against
>the SFW. There are
>three times that many on
>this thread alone, so you
>obviously can't count. Now
>that's the end of the
>discussion on my part with
>you. Good night and
>sweet dreams!!!


i went back and counted 6 is that 3 times 5 ? who can't count plus Tony don't count so that makes 5 sorry Tony!
 
>corndog, Good luck in you SFW-lover
>crusade. You will need
>it.


zim

nice of you to show up! did you re-check the tag numbers on the pauns? looks like someone put in with 16 non-res points. sucks to be you! not really a SFW lover just not a big fan of BS!
 
Do I not count because I actually am the only one on here that knows how it all works? That should make me count 10 fold cooner....

Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
The next buck to have a fawn will be the
1st.
 
Hate them just like we hated USO and Taulman. Carpetbaggers one and all. Tar and feather used to be the remedy. Are we over 5 haters yet?
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-11-12 AT 10:07AM (MST)[p]>did you re-check the tag
>numbers on the pauns? looks
>like someone put in with
>16 non-res points. sucks to
>be you! not really a
>SFW lover just not a
>big fan of BS!


corndog,
Don't need to recheck something I already know. You and your SFW-lover cronnies are funny. You seriously thought I'd buy that phony 16 pt. Pauns BS??? C'mon man.
 
not against sfw. agree with their ideas to put more money into organizations hands through auction/raffle tags to help improve habitat, fight the wolves, and provide several avenues in which with a little work the "public" has a net gain in hunting opportunity in the long term.

IMO it's only a matter of transparency and budgets. Their idea is great...
 
It's not a net gain. Over 18 years it is over 130,000 net loss of hunters in this state. That is a FACT..... Where is the net gain BTK?

Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
The next buck to have a fawn will be the
1st.
 
data is at the top of post tony. reasons for a decline in mule deer and hunters is explained as well.. facts are that if you take away the habitat improvements, drinkers/water catchments, predator control measurements, etc. there would be a much greater loss of hunters than 130,000.
 
Again not true, There was more predator control when there where 1,000,000 domestic sheep in this state. Habitat was better when those sheep where here as they ate all the grass and let the shrubs grow abundantly. Also there was less elk that were not eating all the best food for mule deer and displacing them.

So continue to drink the koolaid you are getting but know that it is spoiled koolaid.

All those ranchers that groups took out of the hills by buying their grazing permits did better water improvements and maintained them 10 times better than is done now.

More Coyotes, lions and bears were killed when we had a lot of sheep.

Everything today is smoke and mirrors to hide the fact that this state and those that control its policy's are more responsible for the continued decline in mule deer and the current suppression of them coming back.

There is less hunters and less hunting opportunity today then there was 18 years ago. So your continued spin is just another politician trying to justify his agenda.

Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
The next buck to have a fawn will be the
1st.
 
This is my first post so i will introduce myself as a member of SFW and a active committee member who volunteers with the Weber Davis chapter. I have been involved since 04. During this time I've attended rac meetings, town hall style meetings all to promote hunting for everyone. I've helped with providing hunts for disabled hunters, wounded vets and serviceman. I've also been able to help introduce youth into hunting. All of these opportunities came to me through SFW. If SFW was truley trying to eliminate the number of hunters in Utah they would not be doing so much to introduce new hunters to the sport.

There are fewer tags for deer being sold today then 18 years ago, but i dare say that most of those who no longer buy deer tags never were into hunting deer and were there for the company. Times have changed the attitudes towards hunting is not the same. This is no fault of any organization. With athletics now year round and the number of activities available to our youth there is not the interest there once was. It pains me to see the number of those who love to hunt dwindle. It pains me more to see our deer heard dwindling as well. The two are directly connected, I'm sure that there were those who were tired of going deer hunting and seeing orange on every ridge but never seeing a decent buck.

I believe that the new deer units is a good approach to fixing our deer heard. Its going to be tough as a archer to no longer have the freedom to hunt multiple units, but it's a sacrafice im willing to make. I hope all will do the same in the name of conservation. If we do nothing but argue amongst ourselves it will only get worse. I joined SWF to improve the quality of hunting for all. I volunteer my time my money and talents along with many others who love to hunt and spend their time in the outdoors.

This site has became a place to hate on SFW and its members, there our many who support SFW and its efforts but choose not to come on here and be ridiculed for wanting to improve hunting in their communities. Its unfair to assume that the opinions on this site represent a majority.

I do not intend to spend much time on this site but I will continue to volunteer my time to SFW. I have a young family, a job, and belong to a Church that that all require much of my time. Its not fun going anywhere you are not welcome, and where you are continually attacked. That is why so many supporters choose not to come on here, to voice their feelings.
 
Justin

Lets go to lunch, I will buy and I will answer any question you have about my stance on Utah and its deer herds.

I am glad you are involved but to make such an ignorant comment as " but i dare say that most of those who no longer buy deer tags never were into hunting deer and were there for the company" proves my point that most are blind as to what happened to Utahs deer hunting opportunity.

Some of us have been around since the start and know the WHOLE story....



Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
The next buck to have a fawn will be the
1st.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-11-12 AT 07:17PM (MST)[p]ok got it. more sheep is the solution to fighting the SFW. you certainly have some good points. i believe most of your arguments are things of the past and active ranching as we once knew it in the west has and will continue to diminish over time. water under the bridge for me. my wife once had a ranch in southern az. they kept up several water tanks and made appropriate habitat improvements for the benefit of the coues deer there. due to the "cost of business" of ranching, they were forced to sell it. unfortunately the people that bought the ranch don't give a crap about cattle, wildlife, or anything that would lead them down the path of wildlife conservation. ultimately, the coues deer herd has dramatically decreased due to just a few years of neglect. nobody is filling up the drinkers when they are dry, fixing the damns on the dirt tanks when they blow, keeping the predator levels at a manageable level, etc. i to would like to have the "good old days" back.

when there are active plans for predator control, habitat improvement, and water catchments and drinkers it is my opinion that the investment leans in favor of the "public" in the long term. all of this costs money and w/o these organizations projects go unfunded and therefor aren't done. it is my opinion that the number of "auction/raffle" tags used to fund these projects are fewer than the increased opportunity these projects create for the "public" hunters to draw. this is my opinion. quite your crying. i don't put inflammatory/incendiary comments directed at every individual that comes out with a different opinion than yours or other people that oppose this line of thinking. good luck...
 
"It's not fun going anywhere you are not welcome, and where you are continually attacked. That is why so many supporters choose not to come on here, to voice their feelings."

JMO - No, the reason so many SFW supporters choose not to come on here is that most have absolutely no answer to the midnight tag rape attempt that was AZHB2072, nor to Don Peay's arrogant, outragious, and just plain bizarre statements of late with regard to the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation.

Throw in SFW's attempted blocking of the wolf rider, and the Corey Rossi scandal..........and the list goes on..........what are they gonna say???
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-11-12 AT 07:24PM (MST)[p]Justin---Good for you and all of the involvement you have mentioned. We who are ragging on SFW are really not after members such as yourself that are trying to make a real difference and I commend you on your efforts. It's the fact that your top leadership is not being upfront as to where all the monies collected are going and the way they get that money. Just think how much more you and the guys could accomplish if all the money that can't be accounted for came your way to help in your many projects!
 
"Ignorant" why such strong words. A difference in opinion does not mean ignorant. I would do lunch though. I read your book awhile back and must say I enjoyed your humor. So what exactly did happen to Utah's deer hunt? I know there is not just one thing so lets do lunch and talk. I did say most and again its my observation. I have been involved with the scouting program for over ten years now, in that time it amazes me how little interest there is in enjoying the outdoors. I plan a fishing trip or a campout and five boys show up.I tell the boys video game night and 20 show up. I believe that the same is going on with hunting. There are other factors as well. But still you can't blame the decline in hunters on SFW. Your phone number is listed above I'll call you if that's ok.
 
I did not call you ignorant, I said it was an ignorant comment. And my opinion is it was based on how long you have been involved versus some of the others on this site.

I am serious about the lunch. Anytime, The deer story needs to be addressed in person.

Glad you enjoyed the book. It is just my skewed way of looking at the world. 801-885-1274

Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
The next buck to have a fawn will be the
1st.
 
There is lots of posts and statements on here about the miss use of money by SFW. How the leaders seem to not be honest in their dealings. Topgun makes the statement that, How much more could be accomplished if that can not be accounted for came your way to help projects. Others talk about SFW members that most have absolutely no answer to the midnight tag rape attempt that was AZHB2072.
First of all, SFW has gone through audits both by the internal revenue service and the State of Utah. Both have found them clean of any wrong doing. They continue to maintain there 501c3 status saying they are following the rules set up. That must be true. The money must all be accounded for so more. Sorry Topgun, They are within the law. Not breaking it.
As for the tag rape attempt that was AZHB2072 and SFW members no nothing about, is because Sportsman for Fish and Wildlife does not have a chapter in Arizona. That is why members do not know about it. They have a different name, just the same key letters. They have chapters in 7 states, Arizona is not one of them. THAT IS A FACT. Dispite all you people out there that think different. YOU ARE WRONG.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-11-12 AT 09:28PM (MST)[p]Birdman---I did not say they are breaking the law. Passing an IRS audit has nothing to do with what we are talking about! In order to pass a 501C3 audit and maintain that tax free status, all they need to do is basicly show they aren't making a profit. To the best of my knowledge there are no caps on salaries, consulting fees, etc., but take a look at where a lot of that money went to meet that status. If the Utah members want to keep paying over 100 grand each a year to Gilstrap and Peay, as well as some of the other money that went to land purchases, charities, etc. that could be going to help their habitat improvement projects, have at it is all I can say. However, please drop the BS about these AZ groups not being tied to DP, whether technically they are or aren't. If you are so naive to think that people who are on both boards and are operating out of the same address aren't tied together in some way with Don Peay and his cronies, I really feel bad for you as you are obviously easily duped. Your heart is in the right place though, so all is not lost!
 
Topgun, One question. Who is this Gilstrap that you keep talking about. I am up high enough to know that he has nothing to do with SFW Utah and is not paid here in Utah. Other than here on the posts, I have no idea who he is.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-11-12 AT 09:39PM (MST)[p]Topgun, You are also right about some money that goes to the purchase of land. That land is then opened to the public for the public to hunt on. They do not have to be SFW members to hunt it either. They also bought the rights to some School trust lands. What did they do with that land, They opened it up to the public. If they would not have bought it then it would have become as it was before. CWMU property. They also do things for Charity. They do hunts for those that were wounded in the wars going on. They do things for kids that are dying. They do work for handicapped kids. No question about that. That is all part of their terrible agenda.
When you talk about SFW Arizona and know it is the same because of the SFW, it reminds me of the guys duck hunting last week in Utah knowing it has to be open to hunting, the proclimation has shooting hours till the 10th of March. After I made a phone call they now are getting ready to explain to the judge why they assumed because of something they thought. You really have no idea what you are talking about when you say SFWaz is tied in any way to Sportsman for Fish and Wildlife. Not talking out the side of my mouth. I know for a fact. You can continue to blow your smoke and try to tell people lies, but it will never change what is FACT.
 
Topgun you said "if the Utah members want to keep paying over 100 grand each year to Gilstrap and Peay, as well as some of the other money that went to land purchases,charities,ect." well not sure about paying these guys that much but if your against orgs buying land to save wintering grounds so houses are not built on critical winter range, then you my friend need to open your eyes. As far as charities go I am proud to say I have helped disabled kids go on hunts of their dreams because of SFW, if you think those reasons are a waste of money then you in my opion are not worth the oxygen that you breath.
 
Birdman---If you don't know that Mrs. Suzanne Gilstrap has been the paid lobbyist for UTSFW for quite a few years and who Don Peay has now sent over to AZ to lobby for HB 2072, you must not be too high up. She has met with Governor Brewer and her staff twice now trying to get the Governor to push HB 2072 back into the Legislature after Rep. Weiers witdrew it due to all the pressure put on him. If you are truly unaware of Mrs. Gilstrap, it makes a person wonder how you are coming up with all this pro SFW rhetoric and no wonder why you are making what appear to be baseless comments on these threads!

hangfire---Those are great reasons to put money into! However, from what Utah members are saying on these threads, it doesn't appear that SFW was set up to donate to charities, even though that's great and work that I also do to help kids back here in MI through the NWTF. I have no idea about whether the SFW was set up to buy land, but that is also getting a lot of negative comments from Utah members on here and that's why I mentioned it. If it's what you stated, and I have no reason to say it's not, and the land is used properly, I would have no problem with that either. Even though I may disagree with someone, that last sentence of yours is pretty harsh and I'll not make that kind of statement about anybody on here regardless of how obnoxious they may appear. Have a good evening!
 
Topgun, I offer my apology for may statement towards you! I know we both want the same outcome for our wildlife. I sometimes let my feelings get the best of me again sorry.
 
tony,
Now you are waaaaay off base! I am the one who started this thread, and all I get is an "invitation" for lunch with you and zeke, yet you offer to BUY Justin's lunch????? HA HA just kidding, if anyone owes anyone then I owe YOU!! Lets figure something out, I would love to sit down and talk with you and Kyle.

Randy
 
Zim I disagree with your reasoning as to why many SFW supporters choose not to visit this site. I can't answer for the actions or comments of others. I will continue to volunteer my time to a cause that I know to be good. I am a proud American citizen that loves this country. I respect both views from the left and right. Most from both major political parties want a better America. I believe when it comes to conservation we can have the same approach. Discussion is good and finding answers to the problems that face sportsmen should be paramount. I believe the way SFW is taking an aggressive stance on issues is what needs to be done. As a whole I support SFW and its mission. Yes mistakes have been made, and will continue to be made. The biggest mistake that could be made is to sit back and do nothing. I also believe that this great country we live in has made mistakes, doesn't mean I'm no longer a proud American.

I stated above that most from both political parties want what's best for this nation. I hope that is what all on this site want as well. Can't we all just get along.
 
Topgun, Suzanne Gilstrap is NOT Paid by SFW Utah. There are 4 paid employees and she is not one of them. Where you get your information is not correct. I did a search on her and see that she lives in Arizona and has lobbied for Sportsman For Wildlife in Arizona, but then again that has nothing to do with the Sportsman for Fish and Wildlife. And since you and others continue to think that SFW, the initials for both groups make them the same then all I can say is that you do not know. Blinded by the letters SFW. Drawing to conclusions that are not correct. With your statements you continue to make, makes SFW members wonder where you get your information. I have worked and signed people up for SFW for years and never have signed one up for an Arizona chapter. I have for all the other chapters. Those that have been signed up from Arizona end up in the Utah chapter. There is not Arizona chapter of as you call it Dons SFW. For 6 years now I have worked in the membership setup of SFW. Yes, and if I see DP on the street, we stop and have a visit. I am not just a blind person to this. I guess I may be one mixing the coolade as you call it. So if you do not have anymore pride in yourself than to continue to spread false information then I guess you really do not care about truth.
 
Judas Jenny Birdman! She's been the Utah SFW lobbyist for at least the last 5 or 6 years and the IRS tax records one of the guys found and posted on one of these threads in the last couple weeks shows they paid her over $300,000 in the years the records were for! Take it somewhere else, as she doesn't have to live in Utah or be one of their 4 paid employees there to be making that money. No wonder they have you buffaloed and making statements about alll the money being accounted for and going to the proper palces. They are also paying Peay in the six figures for "consultant fees", so who gives a rip if he's listed as a paid employee or a consultant! The money is being paid and is gone and it isn't going to habitat improvment!!! Now Gilstrap has gone to the AZ Governor as the AZSFW lobbyist trying to push that tag grab bill through that is damn near identical to the one that Peay pushed through in Utah. You are really something to keep saying I don't know what I'm talking about. You said you didn't even know who Gilstrap is when she has had such close ties to the Utah SFW for years and now is also working as a lobbyist for the AZ organization(s)doing the same thing, regardless of whether it's legally a chapter of you Peay boys or not!
 
Topgun, I would have to see that. They put on the SFWAZ tax records on here but I have not seen anything else. I have been She is not listed as a lobbyest in Utah and so I would have to question your information. If she had lobbied in the last 5 or 6 yours I would know. So again, I would have to question your information. There is not Sportsman for Fish and Wildlife in Arizona that was set up by Don. NOT SO. You can say all you want but I think you will never believe that. Then again, For the last 6 years I have worked in the membership situation of SFW. Not on a local level, but the State level. You can continue to blow smoke all you want.
 
Read my lips for the last time and comprende English man! I, and the others, are not saying AZ is directly under Don Peay, a chapter, affiliated or whatever. However, I believe it was either you or billthekid that stated right out in the Forums that Don was contacted and went to AZ to help them form their own SFW. That's all we need to know and why we are all saying that there are close enough ties to him to smell the stink when HB2072 came out. Even thought they are completely separate on paper, they are attempting to pull the same crappola that was perpetrated on the Utah citizens by DP and it sucks!!! I'll try to find the information I mentioned about Gilstrap, but they hide all that stuff so well that it's hard, if not impossible, to track down. If you are an upper level Utah member, it would be a lot easier for you to get the last tax return and/or business statement from your organization for us to show everything is on the up and up. How about that or are you just going to keep telling us all about "Facts" that you know about to show we are wrong, but can never produce anything? It would seem if it's the great, honest group you proclaim it to be that you could do that for all of us and put this whole thing to rest!
 
TG, you said "put to rest"
I say "??????????"

It will never end because neither side wants their opinion clouded with "facts"!

Yatran, see what you've done now? Are you proud of yourself? LMAO


Zeke
 
I have two points.

1. SFW started fund raising in 1997 and there was a dramatic increase in tags that year. I can't believe they did such a super job in one year to produce those results. Therefore, the efforts of the DWR must account for the improvement.

2. Here in AZ, we have a program, the Habitat Perservation Committee, that takes 100% of the proceeds from a hand full of tag sales and doles them out to conservation projects proposed by various volunteer groups and overseen by Game & Fish. A few of us are working on sourcing more funds for the HPC that do not include pimping our big game. A few concerned sportsmen can make a difference without lining their pockets with the proceeds from game sales.

By the way, here once again is the tax form for Sportsmen for Habitat DBA Sportsmens for Fish and Wildlife that has been discussed ad nauseum all over the web.

5539001.jpg



I appreciate the largely civil discussion and hope to see more of it.
 
Zeke---Do you really think that is asking too much? You said you know Don, so why don't you talk with him and get what we have asked for and put it to rest for us? That seems like a reasonable request, but maybe not when it was like pulling teeth when they were asked for such a long time to be open and post draw odds for the Expo tags! It would seem that if a group is being attacked from all sides that someone in the know could end these threads by being open on this type of request. Silence is normally considered an admission of guilt in our society when things like this break and could easily be put to rest with some simple paperwork put forward from group leaders!
 
Interesting thing is that if you asked how many members SFW has they would include AZ and AK members. But when it hits the fan in AZ and AK Utah members are like "There not with us there different."
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-12-12 AT 11:23AM (MST)[p]Thanks sagebrush, as that really saved me some time looking for it! Okay Birdman, if you look at one line alone on that tax report, you will see almost 1/2 million dollars spent on consultant fees alone in one friggin year, besides salaries that are probably listed on another page for the four people you said are actual employees. Guess who the consultant is and even if that line also includes money that went to Suzanne Gilstrap for lobbying besides to Don Peay himself, don't you think that is just a little more than excessive for a conservation group that is supposed to be putting as much as possible of it's earnings back on the ground for habitat improvement? Look at the measily numbers shown on the lines for that! How about $150,000 listed as Miscellaneous or $885,000 for program expenses, whatever the he** those are for! That's another million dollars down the tubes that didn't go on the ground! Then they have the nerve to show a picture on their website "DONATING" $600K to the DWR. Donation, my rear, as that was money that they legally had to return under their deal with the state, LOL! It's a friggin joke and if you can't see it looking at those numbers, there is no need for further discussion about your great organization!
 
Again Topgun,
This isn't YOUR tax money. This is money which is freely given by sportsmen. I'm sure that if you look at the bottom line of any organization you'll see the number which is brought in far exceeds the "on the ground" money.

The expo tags go back to the average joe and allows some of us to apply for tags which we wouldn't have been able to otherwise.

Zeke
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-12-12 AT 11:41AM (MST)[p]Give it a break Zeke! Those kind of excuses suck wind and you dang well know it!!! Yea, it's money freely given because the average guy is trying to get a tag some way so he can still hunt in that screwed up state. They don't have a gun to anyone's head, but for a guy that is passionate and wants to hunt as much as possible, they might as well have one stuck in his ear! Guys having to take a chance with the odds in those draws might as well put their money down on lottery tickets and if they win some cash then maybe they could bid against Austad and Hamberlin, LOL! Lastly,just in case someone wants to question why I'm so adamantly against this even though I don't plan to hunt in Utah,it's because I want my voice heard along with others like BuzzH, Mighthunter, and Zim so that AZ and the other states don't have this cancer spread there like it is trying to right now!
 
This is money which is freely given by sportsmen.

Really Zeke?

How many NR hunters had a voice in the 500+ tags that SFW ripped from them?

How many sportsmen were represented when AZSFW tried to back-door 350 tags there.

Freely given?

Laffin'....
 
If you sell a resource owned by the people of the state and you keep some of the money for yourself then it is exactly like tax dollars. If you want to steal money from donations and membership fees have at it but don't sell off a public resource and tell people they have no right to know where the money is spent.
 
Now Buzz, you're smarter than that. If you want to talk about those things feel free to do so. But again I'll say the money was "freely" given! It has nothing to do whether the NR has a voice in the State or not. Nice level switch though.

I don't remember Wyoming consulting me on the NR tag fee increases or permit numbers!

Like I said, everyone has an opinion and God knows we'll hear yours laced with laffin', puffing and unwarranted belittling.

You wouldn't think so but we actually all want the same things.

Zeke
 
Great response gleninaz! I wish I could come up with such succinct posts as you just did to get the message across!!!
 
>Zim I disagree with your reasoning
>as to why many SFW
>supporters choose not to visit
>this site. I can't answer
>for the actions or comments
>of others. I will
>continue to volunteer my time
>to a cause that I
>know to be good. I
>am a proud American citizen
>that loves this country. I
>respect both views from the
>left and right. Most from
>both major political parties want
>a better America. I believe
>when it comes to conservation
>we can have the same
>approach. Discussion is good
>and finding answers to the
>problems that face sportsmen should
>be paramount. I believe the
>way SFW is taking an
>aggressive stance on issues is
>what needs to be done.
> As a whole I
>support SFW and its mission.
> Yes mistakes have been
>made, and will continue to
>be made. The biggest
>mistake that could be made
>is to sit back and
>do nothing. I also
>believe that this great country
>we live in has made
>mistakes, doesn't mean I'm no
>longer a proud American.
>
>I stated above that most from
>both political parties want what's
>best for this nation. I
>hope that is what all
>on this site want as
>well. Can't we all just
>get along.


JMO, Do you also believe in the North American Model for Wildlife Conservation?
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-12-12 AT 01:57PM (MST)[p]>Again Topgun,
>This isn't YOUR tax money. This
>is money which is freely
>given by sportsmen. I'm sure
>that if you look at
>the bottom line of any
>organization you'll see the number
>which is brought in far
>exceeds the "on the ground"
>money.
>
>The expo tags go back to
>the average joe and allows
>some of us to apply
>for tags which we wouldn't
>have been able to otherwise.
>
>
>Zeke

The expo tags were raped from nonresidents who payed and waited 16 years only to have their tags stolen by dishonest lobbyists and "consultants". Quit yer "average joe" crappola unless you're gonna tell the WHOLE truth. "Freely given" by guys who waited 16 years............ya right.
 
Dear Zeke,
In the words of the piano-man "I didn't start the fire, it was always burnin!" I do like the passion for wildlife, but in my opinion, most of the posts on here are people spouting off. However...there are a few people on here on both sides of the argument who do actually know what they are talking about, and I have learned quite a bit! AND I think I got us lunch with world famous tony tree beard abbott! Maybe he can pass on some good info on my LE book cliffs tag I'm going to draw this year :) so YES Zeke I am VERY happy! :)
 
topgun said, " However, I believe it was either you or billthekid that stated right out in the Forums that Don was contacted and went to AZ to help them form their own SFW."

not me. quite putting words or thought into the conversation that are clearly wrong. you have made a point of twisting several peoples statements or opinion on this subject including mine. you clearly have an issue with speaking sole truth and seems as though you have more of an issue with diarreah of the mouth. good luck.
 
>Dear Zeke,
>I think I got us
>lunch with world famous tony
>tree beard abbott! Maybe he
>can pass on some good
>info on my LE book
>cliffs tag I'm going to
>draw this year :) so
>YES Zeke I am VERY
>happy! :)

I don't want to put words in his mouth. He didn't offer to buy ME lunch so I won't hold him to it. How 'bout it Tony? Wanna spend an hour or two with a couple of dudes for lunch?

Zeke
 
BTK---Your reading comprehension sucks! I said I BELIEVED it MAY HAVE BEEN one of the two of you. If it wasn't you, as you now say, then I apologize for getting your panties in a wad! However, you two have been the biggest bags of wind on here touting how great your SFW is and that's why I was thinking it MAY HAVE BEEN YOU. What you call "diarrhea of the mouth" is more from my puking when reading all the BS you two post and that keeps getting contradicted with facts from Tony and others that can actually back themselves up with facts like those SFW tax returns he just posted again this afternoon! I don't need any luck, other than if maybe SFW would go away never to be heard from again, or maybe hoping that the two of you could come up with some facts to back yourselves up instead of asking all of us to find them ourselves!
 
Topgun, First of all, What was said was that I called AZSFW to see about who they were. They said that they patterned themselves after Don Peays group. It was the haters that kept saying that DP set up AZSFW. I said that they may have contacted him about what to do. I do not know but they may have. They are patterned like Sportsman for Fish and Wildlife.
Next, I am not sure but would guess that like all public records they are open to the public. Why don't you and your accountant come out here and go over the tax files like the good watchdog that you are and find out all this for yourself. Bring your accountant so you can expose all the little things. If this is the tax form that was put up before that showed all the money being paid to Gilstrap, I do not see the name. Then again, You have assumed so much. Also for your information. Several of the people that are paid by SFW are used of other things. They are consultants. None of them are Gilstrap. I am tired of trying to explain what is what. Come find out for yourself. It is there to see.
When you say Zeke, these excuses suck wind. Will topgun You suck wind. You can come and find out these things or any of your cronies. I forget that you know everything. You are one of the most hateful people on here. You look for nothing but finding fault in everything that goes on. You know nothing how the system works for getting the conservation tags. They do not just give the tags out. The organizations bid on them. Then again you don't know know how the system works and until you do you are really not qualified to tell people how they work.
Now KNOW IT ALL TOPGUN, (as I bow down at your feet) you keep spreading the stuff you are full of. You are good at it. And also YOU HAVE A GREAT DAY.
 
The problem is that every time you make a post it's the same thing as the previous ones and is nothing but what you state as fact and nothing to back it up. Who cares whether the name Gilstrap or Peay appears on that return? That's just another one of your excuses to change the subject, which is the way most work when they have nothing of substance to defend improper activities. Regardless of what you say, it's wasted money whether it went to her, Don Peay, or whomever else are freeloading off the SFW welfare trough. The point is that a tax return HAS been posted showing what I stated and this is all you can come up with, that Gilstrap's name isn't on it! I'd hate to have you as my defense lawyer, LOL! Why do I need to come out and pick through a bunch of paperwork trying to find what you say should be available to exonerate your great SFW organization? That one tax return showed exactly what all of us are saying and that is that there is so much money that is wasted going to consultants, lobbyists, etc. that could be put on the ground to help the habitat and animals that use it. You, Sir, appear to be blind and just making arguments that are the same every time just for arguments sake. I can't remember where it was on this site, but there was also paperwork produced that SFW filled out for their own audits and it showed over a three year period of time that they had paid Mrs. Gilstrap over $300,000 for her work and I could care less whether you want to call it consulting fees, lobbyist fees, or any other assorted category you care to come up with. The fact is that she is getting rich off SFW money and DP is doing pretty darn good with his hundreds of thousands of dollars he's making off the wildilfe that could be better used for habitat improvement! With all the heat that SFW is under, don't you think if what you are saying could have been produced by DP by now that it would have been to get people off his back so it would be easier for him to keep pushing his agenda? Please sit back and think about all that people are saying before you try to defend stuff that is indefensible! If the SFW higher ups could defend themselves, they would have done so by now out on Froums like this that you know darn well they are reading. Think about it a little bit and maybe all of a sudden the lightbulb in your brain will start flashing like it has to the rest of us for quite some time now! Hope it's as beautiful a day where you are as it is here!!!
 
topgun, The only form I can find on this sight is a form tying money to Gilstrap is from SFWAZ. Don't ty it to the wrong group. But then again. That is what you are good at. Putting blame where it does not belong. Again you have no idea how it all works and you have no desire to find out how it all works. You will draw your own conclusions no matter what happens. By the way, DP is a consultant and not an officer. And yes, a consultant works of a salary but also expenses. He makes suggestions but not policys.
Now you can keep up your complaining on things you really know nothing about. YOU HAVE A GREAT DAY.
 
Same old BS trying to put your own slant on thing. I've stated a number of times that DP was getting consultant fees and nowhere did I say he was an officer! Incidentally, consultants aren't in a salaried position drawing a paycheck and/or benefits. That's why they are called "Consultants", LOL!It's also a lot easier to slip them a lot more money in a position like that than if they were in a salaried position within the organization or company. Normally they are paid an agreed amount depending on what they are doing, how long it takes, etc. and they generally have no benefits, like say David Allen has as head of the RMEF with his salary and perks. it's amazing how you keep coming up with all these facts like you just stated that are easy to disprove, so you may want to slow down before you type again before thinking a little like I suggested in my last post.
 
topgun Call it a retainers fee if you would like. Do you really know what kind of agreement they have? No you don't, You really do not know how this all works. But then again, You know everything. I keep forgetting that. I will try to work on remembering. Until then, Keep Pi$$ing in the wind. I think your shoes are getting really wet. HAVE A GREAT DAY.
 
You are too much man! I said nobody cares what they call the fleecing titles that they are using. All that matters is that Peay, Gilstrap, Benson, et. al. are eating from the welfare trough that SFW has become and the money they are taking away for themselves that could be going to the habitat is huge. Funny that you aren't arguing that all that money is outgoing, but can't come up with what they did to deserve it. Maybe that's because they didn't honestly earn most of it for doing much of anything that the original organization was supposed to do. Too bad you can't see it, but let's quit for awile and maybe someone else can post and tell you that I'm not the only one who thinks you are way off base in your thinking!
 
topgun, you keep bringing in Gilstarp into the money situation. That is the way that you work. She isn't or doesn't.

What has really been interesting on the forums on MM, I have lived in Utah, Nevada, and New Mexico. Have been several different people and I am rich. Also that I support SFW so that I can jump over all the people by buying conservation tags. Also it has been said in some forums that SFW gives me tags. Boy I am one of the luckiest people here on MM.
The fact is topgun is you are not sure how it all works or what the rules are. Too bad. Keep blowing it out youra--. You are GREAT AT THAT. HAVE A GREAT DAY. A REALLY GREAT DAY.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-13-12 AT 11:28AM (MST)[p]"topgun, you keep bringing in Gilstarp into the money situation. That is the way that you work. She isn't or doesn't"


She isn't or doesn't what? You are typing so fast just to get out comments that you can't even finish a friggin sentence. Gilstrap got paid six figures a number of years for lobbying or whatever else you want to call it and I , as well as most others, could care less which SFW it came out of. It's gone and that's all that matters! You seem to talk like you're the great SFW guru, so since you seem to be the insider that knows everything, let's do this. You've got me thinking now such that I'm now a perspective member of your organization and would like to know all about how it all works and what the rules are before I send my check in and join as a member. How about you posting how "IT" works and all the rules. You do that and I'll send you a check for membership dues and maybe a little extra under the table for being my consultant! Put up or shut up bud! The ball is in your court and I will make no further comments unless you can come up with some concrete evidence to back yourself up. Remember to treat me kindly now because I'm a perspective member just wanting to know what I'm getting into before I fork over hard-earned cash!
 
Oh topgun. There is plenty on MM to show you how it really works. Doesn't matter what is said, You know it will never be enough for you. And Gilstrap works for an Arizona group Sportsman For Wildlife, not Sportsman for Fish and Wildlife. Since you have refused to check and know that they are two different groups, but then you mind is closed to anything else I would say about Sportsman for Fish and Wildlife. So I can see the waste of time.
On the other side topgun. I bow down at you feet and worship you for all your GREAT KNOWLEDGE that you know. You have a GREAT DAY. Oh how I admire you and your knowledge. How is the wet shoes.
 
Birdman---Please read and do what what is in this post gleninaz just put up as I am doing and then come back and keep saying what you have been, LOL!


gleninaz (1439 posts)
Mar-13-12, 02:12 PM (MST)
"Use the search engine for SFW!"

I searched my username and read all the posts from 7/05 about SFW and how Don Peay was at the meetings and hired Pete C for $150000 a year to start the AZSFW. Intersting how spot on some posters were when warning us about SFW and how others were already lapping up the Kool Aid. Just search my username and read a few of the posts and it will all become clear. No BS from the birdman, plenty of Denham and others touting the new group and how Pete C guaranteed them the AZSFW would never go for the tag grab. Here is one post from Don Martin:

"Pete is adamant that NO BIG GAME TAGS are in the plans for SFW (Arizona).

That was one of my major concerns after seeing all the hoorah here about the Utah plan.

I also like the idea of the sportsmen in SFW being the ones who give direction the the "other side" (money guys) of SFW in Arizona.

From what I see, the Arizona plan is different from the Utah plan in a number of ways.

I have always said that those that have issues with groups, etc. need to be involved- especially getting in on the ground floor of this organization so that Arizona residents can set the direction and goals of the group.

I'm not sure I'll have a lot of time to donate due to other conservation committments, but I believe SFW will be good for Arizona, IF we get involved and IF SFW does what it is designed to do.

By the way, Pete can be contacted via e-mail to answer any questions at [email protected] and yes, Arizona SFW will have a website coming up that explains in detail what SFW (Arizona) is all about.

Pete is looking at an August meeting in Phoenix to set up bylaws, etc. for the group.

Ask questions, and get involved!

Don Martin"
 
Here are some sound effects from when Tony was suckling on the SFW teat,

"This is the best nipple ever, gimme more teats"

slurp slurp slurp, num num num.. BEALCH !

"I love this milk its creamy, delicious & nutritious"

...SFW to Tony ---> "slow down Jr... you'll get the scours"

Tony.. "nonsence, give more milk dammit"....
"if you don't... I know MDF has a large bag, plus very suple areolas.
& I will not hesitate teaching them lactating procedures.

as to be be expected, Tony is weaned from the mothers milkers.
(a large tantrum ensues) kicking & screaming whilst wreathing around on the floor.

Next chapter, Tonys @ MDF ... suckle, suckle, slurp, chug, gag, num, num, num, BURP !

Post MDF chapter, with a shortage of freash heifers to fondle..


Tony to the general public.. " I HATE MILK ! its all evil ! "
 
Very clever and childish all together.

But it was more like this,

Once upon a time

SFW was almost out of business, Don paid Tony out of his own pocket to do the fundraising. Sfw blows up to Chapters all across the state as well as Wyoming, Idaho and New Mexico. Sfw forgets that it was the little guy that got them there and starts only dealing with the rich. Tony makes questionable actions by some known to SFW board. Tony says clean it up or Tony is done. Sfw board chooses tony to be gone.

Tony goes to MDF, public asks who is MDf. MDF is a NON factor prior to this. Tony makes MDF viable and a player. MDF creates fundraisers all over Utah and takes lots of money from SFW and humbles them. MDF joins FNAWS for national convention. MDF gaining power and momentum. SFW comes to MDF and FNAWS and asks to be part of the party. Please come to Utah and lets have a massive convention. SFW knows they dont have the base to do it alone.

Convention set up to be great for Utahs wildlife. Sets up drawing process to raise nearly a million a year of which the majority of the money is suppose to be spent on UTAHs wildlife. Tony HAs now been pretty instrumental in helping SFW and hugely intrumental for saving MDF.

Tony completes his contract with MDF and rides off in to the sunset with a great convention set up to help Utahs wildlife.

The hunt expo then gets greedy, FNAWS puts ZERO dollars from the permits into Utah. SFW and MDF put very little of the expo tag money into Utah, Sportsman getting pissed and call tony to find out how it was set up. Tony lets the public know what the agreement is. More and more public gets pissed. UWC forms to try to help Utahs wildlife and stop the constant whoring out of a public resource with NO accountability.

Tony hunts more now than ever and actually makes a living for his family. Tony is happy but people still call him, email him and text him to help Utah get back on track. Tony posts FACTS on MM about what he KNOWS. Tony still hunts more and builds his business. MDF and SFW do not keep their promises on transparency and accounting of expo tag money. Groups also do not spend much of the money on Utahs wildlife that was agreed on. DWR turns their head and says no RULES are broken,

SPortsman continue to get frustrated for lack of answers.
Tony says it is not his problem but still gives the FACTS for people to know.

BFE gets diarrhea of the mouth and spouts off about things he has no idea about. Tony gets humored and post the FACTS again. BFE will respond with ignorance and continue to hide behind a false screen name. PEople will laugh at BFE because he sounds like a moron and ignorant.

Tony laughs at BFE and the sheep and goes to New Zealand to hunt

The End




Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
The next buck to have a fawn will be the
1st.
 
Last chapter,

BFE starts sobbing uncontrollably, crys himself to sleep while having sweet dreams of large areolas. ;-)
 
>LAST EDITED ON Mar-11-12
>AT 10:07?AM (MST)
>
>>did you re-check the tag
>>numbers on the pauns? looks
>>like someone put in with
>>16 non-res points. sucks to
>>be you! not really a
>>SFW lover just not a
>>big fan of BS!
>
>
>corndog,
>Don't need to recheck something I
>already know. You and
>your SFW-lover cronnies are funny.
> You seriously thought I'd
>buy that phony 16 pt.
>Pauns BS??? C'mon man.
>

Zim

i don't have any sfw lovin cronnies . i don't care if you draw the pauns tag. all that bothers me is your lack of understanding about how the utah tag system works. utah has always given about 10% of the tags to non-res,like most states . utah still gives about 10% to non-res so go ahead and b@tch about sfw all you want but don't bullchit anyone about tag numbers!!!you don't have a clue about tags or seasons so go to wildlife.utah.gov and download the proc and maybe go back a few years and look at tag numbers then get on mm and show everyone what you learned.
 

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