Teton Mtn Goat Slaughter

I thought Wyo owned the wildlife?

Obviously it's federal land but seems like there may be a solution? Colo does the same thing inside RMNP once in a while. It's pretty sad because it's perfect goat country and sheep are almost nonexistent. I don't think anyone knows 100% whether goats roamed the Teton's 100+ years ago? Seems like they could have easily come in from Idaho or Montana?

It seems like a perfect opportunity for Wyo hunters to be offered additional mtn goat tags? Elk are hunted in Teton Park so why not mtn goats?
 
jims said:
I thought Wyo owned the wildlife?

Obviously it's federal land but seems like there may be a solution? Colo does the same thing inside RMNP once in a while. It's pretty sad because it's perfect goat country and sheep are almost nonexistent. I don't think anyone knows 100% whether goats roamed the Teton's 100+ years ago? Seems like they could have easily come in from Idaho or Montana?

It seems like a perfect opportunity for Wyo hunters to be offered additional mtn goat tags? Elk are hunted in Teton Park so why not mtn goats?
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There were hunts in the park for goats, Rip Van Winkle.

Read the article first, open mouth second.
 
Last time I checked mtn goats were one of the Big 5 species that Wyo res want more opportunity to hunt? I can guarantee this would offer a gob more mtn goat tags than 90/10 will ever provide Wyo res!

First, Rip Van is a narley little dood! Buzz you are a class act!

2nd, I read the article and am pretty sure there wasn't a draw for those tags? My suggestion was that it would be great if there was a designated hunt with established seasons rather than "qualified volunteers" and sharp-shooters out of copters?

I guess it's ok with you Buzz that guys in copters and sharp shooters are buzzing around the Tetons slaughtering goats when the public could potentially be offered a season with tags? A gob of goats are dead and more are to come!

Here's a prime example of more opportunity for a Big 5 species for Wyo res that could slip through the cracks! Way, way more res opportunity than a couple additional mtn goat tags grabbed from nonres with 90/10!

Someone may want to bring it up at the next Task Force meeting? If I was a guide or outfitter I certainly would be drooling over this!

I'm pretty sure there would be a long line of Wyo res that would drool over the opportunity to hunt mtn goats in the Tetons and would support this? A designated season with tags sure seems like a no-brainer to me? Instead of paying high $ for sharpshooters out of copters, hunters would pay for tags for the opportunity to hunt!

Colo actually offers relatively high numbers of goat tags to public hunters in a drawing to harvest mtn goats in units where bighorn conflicts may exist. Success is generally lower than other units due to lower populations of goats but it is a win-win for hunters to enjoy goat hunting with an outside chance of harvesting a goat.

For any Wyo res that cares about more Big 5 species hunting opportunity here you go!:

Last year’s participants will once again undergo a background check, and may not have active warrants, or past major wildlife violations. Volunteers identified as shooters must successfully pass a mandatory firearm proficiency evaluation. All volunteers are United States citizens and at least 18 years of age.

Additional required testing and comprehensive training to safely and successfully participate in this program includes bear spray deployment, backcountry tracking, radio protocols, ecology, and genetic sample collection. Each volunteer will receive this testing and training on the first day of each operational period.

The volunteer teams will each be assigned one of five geographic zones throughout the Teton Range within the park. The non-native mountain goats are generally found at high elevations. Qualified volunteers may access these zones from a variety of trailheads, as well as national forest lands to the west of the park.

All volunteers for the culling program will be clearly identified as a “National Park Service Qualified Volunteer” with an orange bib on their back or pack as well as an orange or pink hat or other exterior garment. Visitors can expect to see volunteers in camouflage clothing carrying rifles, may hear gun shots, or see volunteers packing out portions of culled mountain goats.

No park trails or areas are anticipated to be closed during the culling program. Signs will be posted at trailheads that access the areas the volunteers will be working to create awareness for any backcountry hikers or climbers.

For more information about the project, visit https://www.nps.gov/grte/getinvolved/mountain-goat-management-volunteer.htm.

There are key differences between a culling program in a national park and traditional recreational hunting.    
• Culling in a national park is done exclusively for conservation and stewardship purposes, while hunting is primarily for recreation or procuring food.    
• Culling in a national park is conducted under controlled circumstances with the supervision of National Park Service personnel, while hunting is performed at the hunter’s discretion, subject to applicable licensing and laws.  
• Volunteers may not keep a trophy when participating in a culling program in a national park. The meat may be donated or distributed to Indian Tribes, qualified volunteers, food banks, and other organizations that work to address hunger, in accordance with applicable health guidelines. Culling in a national park does not generate revenue and does not include fair chase.
 
They had to have a process to weed out guys like you for that hunt in the Park, Sebastian.

They wanted qualified people.

Anyone could apply.
 
Wyoming does hold it's wildlife in trust for the people.

TNP(Feds) got the G&F Commission to go along with it by calling Rocky Mtn goats "non-native", "invasive" & "excotic".

Sad chapter in wildlife history in my state.
 
As usual, thanks for the kind words Buzz!

Hopefully Wyo figures out a strategy to hunt a Big 5 species within the park. Sounds like a great opportunity with lots of tags available to public hunters that currently doesn’t exist?
 
jims said:
As usual, thanks for the kind words Buzz!

Hopefully Wyo figures out a strategy to hunt a Big 5 species within the park. Sounds like a great opportunity with lots of tags available to public hunters that currently doesn’t exist?
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NPS said it will cull mountain goats "using aerial methods in Grand Teton National Park
So no there will not be any oppurtunity or lots of tags it will be gov sharpshooters in helicopters
 
That would be cool if they did relocate, I know a group of guys who did it 2 yrs in a row, wasn’t easy, but they did kill a goat or 2!!
 
I highly doubt they would spend that kind of money much cheaper to just shoot them. Gotta remember these guys are all about money
 
I wonder how much it ends up costing them to shoot each goat from a copter? Most copters charge by the minute for flights!
 
jims said:
I wonder how much it ends up costing them to shoot each goat from a copter? Most copters charge by the minute for flights!
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They charge by hour.

Ok guys who’s next to correct Jims in his next post?
 
SS- I need to spell every word out for you. Copters aren't cheap and it's mighty expensive for fuel and flight time for sharp-shooters to slaughter them! Instead of spending $$$$$ for copters and sharp shooters..... public hunters are willing to pay to hunt goats.

It's pretty hilarious that several Wyo hunters don't see what's right in front of them that would open up new options for a large number of Big 5 mtn goat tags that don't presently exist.

I'm pretty sure there are plenty of Wyo res that would be tickled to death to hunt mtn goats in the Tetons.
 
They could have a "hunt" and issue tags, but then it would be tied up in court for years for offering a "hunt" in a National Park. Probably easier to call it a culling operation. The nature fakers will be okay with that.
 
How do we get jims banned from the wyo forum? Feel like it would benefit everyone.

First off, they have opened 2 hunts outside the park lines with high tag numbers and very low goat numbers that hunters have been able to go after for 3 years. I drew the first year and killed a mature billy with my bow, and its the oldest and largest to have come from that hunt. I scouted relentlessly, and saw a total of 1 goat, and i was able to harvest him. Since then very few if any hunters have found goats.
The area where the helicopter hunting will occur is literally damn near impossible for humans to access the goats in the cliffs. I know numerous people who have done the park hunt the past 2 years and saw plenty of goats, but many were entirely unsafe and impossible to get to. So the park is taking matters into their own hands because the entire point is to get rid of the population because of the bighorn sheep which is the entire point of the eradication.
So instead of worrying about our state, maybe do a little research before you act like you know anything about this situation. Also fyi... this isn't the first time they have used the helicopter in winter, they did it 3 years ago and shot a little under 40 in a couple days... to get rid of that many with hunters, would take years in that country. Also not to mention the environmentalists who tried to stop it originally, but the park listened to the game and fish and allowed the volunteer hunt, which they had no intentions of doing at all in the beginning. But thanks for your continued worries about the state of Wyoming, they truly are unnecessary.
 
Could we please transfer just one to boars tusk and send me a tag for it . You can put it up on the point and I’ll take it from there ?
 
mntguide ~~ you can block him and never see his posts nor threads.


Out of all the M&M members I have done it to 2 of them and it is nice to not even read/see anything they post.


Robb
 
All of the goat population south of YellowStone National Park on Wyoming’s western boarder. Are a result of migration out of Unit 67 in Idaho. Years ago there should have been a migration border line, with a open goat hunting policy in place. Things like that are very hard too predict let alone garner public support. Once the goats reached the security of the Park with its no hunting they were bound to become a problem. This isn’t the only place the Park Service is culling goats, it’s being done in Washington State also.
 
A lot of people would be shocked to know the Park Service used to cull elk in the Park.

“In 1934 Yellowstone rangers began shooting the elk of the northern herd to directly control their numbers. In 1967, after years of controversy, Yellowstone stopped using direct reduction, and shortly thereafter, ceased live-trapping and shipment of elk as well.”
 
Mntnguide, There were "qualified volunteers" that shot 63 goats that hiked into Teton Park to kill goats in 2020 and 2021. That's pretty good harvest kill if you ask me. It also tells me that it would be possible to have a viable draw hunt for public hunters.

Taken straight from my first article: "NPS said it removed 36 mountain goats using aerial lethal means in February 2020, 43 mountain goats using qualified volunteers in Fall 2020, and an additional 20 mountain goats using qualified volunteers in Fall 2021."

Public hunters have been killing elk in Teton Park and Jackson Refuge for years. If aerial sharpshooters are allowed to shoot goats why not public hunters? I wonder how much $$$$ the Feds have spent on the culling project....they probably don't quote that amount?

Just because I'm not a Wyo resident doesn't mean I don't have great suggestions! Instead I'm treated like an outcast! This seems like a viable hunt that public hunters would welcome with open arms. Wyo res want more Big 5 tags.....here is a prime example of something that would produce a pile of goat tags and opportunity that doesn't currently exist!

Pretty darn good idea if you ask me....but I'm a nonres and what do I know?
 
Sounds like their reasoning was pretty well justified, but the latest up date this morning make all of this arguing a moot point now!!!

Previously-
"Barnum said that the park is retuning to helicopter gunning because of safety concerns and dwindling efficacy of the hunts. A team of hunters was stranded overnight in 2021 and required "climbing assistance to descend the area the next day," the Tuesday press release said.
"The safety risks and difficulty in ground-based removal efforts would continue to increase given there are fewer non-native mountain goats and most of those that remain occupy the least accessible areas of the Teton Range," the park wrote in the release. "As such, aerial removal is a safer and more effective method."

Update-
"Grand Teton National Park contractors had killed 50 invasive mountain goats in the northern part of the Tetons through Thursday, and park officials said they planned to continue aerial gunning today, including in the southern part of the range.
No additional closures are expected.
 
jims said:
Mntnguide, There were "qualified volunteers" that shot 63 goats that hiked into Teton Park to kill goats in 2020 and 2021. That's pretty good harvest kill if you ask me. It also tells me that it would be possible to have a viable draw hunt for public hunters.

Taken straight from my first article: "NPS said it removed 36 mountain goats using aerial lethal means in February 2020, 43 mountain goats using qualified volunteers in Fall 2020, and an additional 20 mountain goats using qualified volunteers in Fall 2021."

Public hunters have been killing elk in Teton Park and Jackson Refuge for years. If aerial sharpshooters are allowed to shoot goats why not public hunters? I wonder how much $$$$ the Feds have spent on the culling project....they probably don't quote that amount?

Just because I'm not a Wyo resident doesn't mean I don't have great suggestions! Instead I'm treated like an outcast! This seems like a viable hunt that public hunters would welcome with open arms. Wyo res want more Big 5 tags.....here is a prime example of something that would produce a pile of goat tags and opportunity that doesn't currently exist!

Pretty darn good idea if you ask me....but I'm a nonres and what do I know?
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How big is your clipboard? You copy and paste all damned day.
 
Yes I know this would never happen,
I could shoot a goat out of a helicopter, fastrope down, get a big basket lowered down to get the goat and myself a ride out at same time.....
Ya, I would pay a couple bucks for that as long as I could keep the goat.
 
I think in the type of terrain they are talking about recovery might be impossible. Even with a helicopter.
 
None of the volunteer hunters who killed goats were allowed to keep anything but meat if they wanted to. They were forced to leave hide and skulls, due to federal policy regarding national parks. I know my couple buddies shot at least 1 goat that they could not get anywhere close to. The country in the northern section is not to be messed with, and there is a reason goats survive in it and hunters were unable to get to them. If those goats were easy to kill, over the last 3 years, the helicopter wouldnt have found 50 to shoot in 1 day this week.
 
Nasty country! Bummer for those that agree that adding a new goat unit in Wyo would have been a great option with a substantial increase in Big 5 tags that currently isn't available.

Maybe in 10 or 20 years when the goats return they'll figure out that public hunters would be a great option.

I have another idea that would benefit Wyo mtn goat hunters but I'm sure I would be shamed by Wyo residents on this website! Mtn goats are pretty cool critters that live in magnificent country!
 
Jims: You're wrong on this one, so just let it drop. My wife is an experienced climber on the Grand, and unless your hunters have lots of experience, several thousand dollars worth of equipment, and ball of steel - this is not a hunt and never will be. If you want them out of the Park, kill them before they get there. I'm done here!!
 
LIK2HNT said:
I have only eaten one Mtn. Goat, and that was the one I shot last year in Colorado. it tastes great to me and the few other people who tried it.
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You might want to take a Covid test. Losing sense of taste is a great indicator you have it.
 
The smart thing would be to transplant them to Deer Area 87, and try to get them breed some of the Deer there. Firm up those Genetics. No way a Mule Deer/Mountain Goat Hybrid would sport a three point main frame.
 
SS! said:
You might want to take a Covid test. Losing sense of taste is a great indicator you have it.
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The smell of those things alone will about turn your stomach.
We watched a billy one day, pee in its own mouth. You guy's can have em, everyone of them.
 
Here's an interesting tidbit of info in regard to Teton Park. Of the 5 species of trout in Teton Park only 1 of them is native. The non-native trout species in Teton Park include lake trout, rainbow, eastern brook, and brown trout. I don't see the park service eliminating lake trout and other invasive trout from Jackson Lake? In fact, invasive lake trout eat most of the native fish species! Pretty funny how they point the finger at mtn goats!

Cutthroat is the only native trout. I'm sure "invasive" trout have a negative impact on the many native species of fish and other aquatic species that are in Teton Park waters?

Do any of you know exactly where mtn goats are native in the lower 48 in the US? How about where in Wyo, Montana, and Idaho? My guess is that not many do and it is somewhat of a guess? Could it be possible there were goats in these areas 200 years ago?

Here in Colo the CPW has done the same thing. Mtn goats always seem to be given a bad rap. Where there are sheep and mtn goat areas that overlap the goats always take it on the head! The simple truth is mtn goats and sheep in Colo have interacted on the same mountain for years...and are doing just fine! In reality how many cases of disease have ever occurred across the country where mtn goats have killed off sheep herds? This is just another poor excuse to slaughter goats!

It's pretty much a bunch of crap why mtn goats get such a bad rap. The same exact thing happened in Olympic Ntl Park in Washington. Olympic goats were introduced way back in the 1920's and recently were also slaughtered! Thankfully in the Olympics a bunch of goats were transplanted.

I'm sure guys that have been fortunate to hunt goats in Wyo, Idaho, Colorado, Nevada, and Utah all would say what a privilege it was to have the opportunity to hunt them. No one is 100% certain that they never were endemic in some of these areas. I'm not aware of any cases where mtn goats totally wiped out bighorn sheep? Maybe someone in Idaho or Montana can chime in that spend time in areas where these 2 species overlap?

Just thought I would add some more comments to vent my frustration on why goats are given such a horrible name across the Western US.

Hey Teton Park....when are you going to start culling lake trout and browns? They eat a heck of a lot of native fish?
 
They are killing them because they are worried about them giving the bighorn sheep diseases. Trout don't kill bighorn sheep give it a rest
 
jims said:
Here's an interesting tidbit of info in regard to Teton Park. Of the 5 species of trout in Teton Park only 1 of them is native. The non-native trout species in Teton Park include lake trout, rainbow, eastern brook, and brown trout. I don't see the park service eliminating lake trout and other invasive trout from Jackson Lake? In fact, invasive lake trout eat most of the native fish species! Pretty funny how they point the finger at mtn goats!

Cutthroat is the only native trout. I'm sure "invasive" trout have a negative impact on the many native species of fish and other aquatic species that are in Teton Park waters?

Do any of you know exactly where mtn goats are native in the lower 48 in the US? How about where in Wyo, Montana, and Idaho? My guess is that not many do and it is somewhat of a guess? Could it be possible there were goats in these areas 200 years ago?

Here in Colo the CPW has done the same thing. Mtn goats always seem to be given a bad rap. Where there are sheep and mtn goat areas that overlap the goats always take it on the head! The simple truth is mtn goats and sheep in Colo have interacted on the same mountain for years...and are doing just fine! In reality how many cases of disease have ever occurred across the country where mtn goats have killed off sheep herds? This is just another poor excuse to slaughter goats!

It's pretty much a bunch of crap why mtn goats get such a bad rap. The same exact thing happened in Olympic Ntl Park in Washington. Olympic goats were introduced way back in the 1920's and recently were also slaughtered! Thankfully in the Olympics a bunch of goats were transplanted.

I'm sure guys that have been fortunate to hunt goats in Wyo, Idaho, Colorado, Nevada, and Utah all would say what a privilege it was to have the opportunity to hunt them. No one is 100% certain that they never were endemic in some of these areas. I'm not aware of any cases where mtn goats totally wiped out bighorn sheep? Maybe someone in Idaho or Montana can chime in that spend time in areas where these 2 species overlap?

Just thought I would add some more comments to vent my frustration on why goats are given such a horrible name across the Western US.

Hey Teton Park....when are you going to start culling lake trout and browns? They eat a heck of a lot of native fish?
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Hey Colorado cheatgrass here’s a link to where they are trying to get rid of the invasive lake trout:


I picked the spokesman because you would fit perfect in Spokane.

Let’s try something new Colorado cheatgrass. How about you only post on topics you actually know something about? And for the rest of them you STFU.

We would enjoy the silence around here..
 
The truth is, a viable herd of goats, that could be hunted outside the park was eradicated in the name of a herd of sheep we will never get to hunt. I rarely agree with anything jims says, but on killing these mtn goats I do. There are many places sheep and goats cohabit and both do just fine. There are even more places bighorn sheep live without ever seeing a mtn goat and struggle. Mtn goats have become the new "domestic sheep" and there is literally no proof a mountain goat ever gave a bighorn a disease. In fact it could be the other way around.

But this is old news and I could care less about the fish.
 
The trouble with Jim "cheatgrass" Sebastian, is that he's about 2 years behind the issue. He also doesn't do anything but complain, and clearly does nothing in his state of Residence to help NR hunters.

Wyoming did push back a bit and the park stopped aerial gunning to allow at least 60 of the goats to be hunted.

I do agree that its a sad waste of a long-term, viable, and huntable population of goats being sacrificed for a maybe population of sheep. I also don't believe that enough research was done to justify the actions of wiping out an entire goat population.
 
I'm clearly standing up for DIY nonres and res hunters on this one. This and other mtn goat management strategies are definitely a loss of great opportunity for public hunters!

Are mtn goats truly non-native in the Tetons and elsewhere? Well here's a pretty thorough article about the history of mtn goats in Wyoming that mentions that there is a very good chance they are in fact native. We may want to actually thank the animal rights guys for this article?

www.animals24-7.org

Mountain goat massacre begins in Grand Tetons - Animals 24-7

The northern and western slopes of the Cathedral Mountains in Grand Teton National Park were on January 5, 2020 closed to the public to allow air gunners flown by Baker Aircraft of Baker City, Oregon, to massacre as many as 100 mountain goats deemed "invasive" by the National Park Service.
www.animals24-7.org www.animals24-7.org
 
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I have no clue but they know a lot about the history about goats in Wyo that could benefit hunters over a culling program.
 
LIK2HNT said:
My understanding is that they were not Canadian wolves in the lower 48. I will have to look into that further.
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That’s misinformation. You know the Canadian border is an imaginary line to animals right?
 
I know it’s an imaginary line. I should of said subspecie. I always thought the wolves native to the US were smaller in size than the ones up north. Internet is so full of bias info it’s hard to trust. Everyone skews the date to fit their narrative.
 
LIK2HNT said:
I know it’s an imaginary line. I should of said subspecie. I always thought the wolves native to the US were smaller in size than the ones up north. Internet is so full of bias info it’s hard to trust. Everyone skews the date to fit their narrative.
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The ones in the US were not smaller. That’s more misinformation from the anti wolves. Don’t drink the kool aid
 
Animals get bigger the further north you go. So, I would think that wolves are (somewhat) bigger in Canada. Look at body weight of Texas whitetail vs Alberta whitetail.

"Bergmann's rule is an ecogeographical rule that states that within a broadly distributed taxonomic clade, populations and species of larger size are found in colder environments, while populations and species of smaller size are found in warmer regions."
 
Teepee said:
Animals get bigger the further north you go. So, I would think that wolves are (somewhat) bigger in Canada. Look at body weight of Texas whitetail vs Alberta whitetail.

"Bergmann's rule is an ecogeographical rule that states that within a broadly distributed taxonomic clade, populations and species of larger size are found in colder environments, while populations and species of smaller size are found in warmer regions."
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Someone tell this Bergmann fellow that Arctic Elephants are not as big as their African and Indian cousins.
 

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