The Middle Man

[G3]

I am looking at trying to buy a landowner voucher (deer) for Colorado for the first time this year. Being new to the game I have looked a little but was wondering if there is a good way to get a tag and avoid the middle man. I understand that this is the best way to probably get a tag but on a budget it would be great if there is a way just to get one from a landowner. Any ideas are appreciated.
Thanks in advance
G3

 

[marley]

In Colorado there can be no middleman. You must buy it from the landowner.

 

[G3]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-03-10 AT 08:48PM (MST)[p]I am confused a little? So with places like the Huntin Fool, Trophy Chasers, Pennington, etc. are they buying the tags and then doing a re-sale of the tags to the general public? Also is there a list of landowners anywhere that a guy could contact? Thanks again.
G3

 

[Gator]

No landowner list that I know of.


"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".

 

[BeanMan]

There is supposed to be no middleman but CDOW does not enforce it. Lots of Pimpingtons out there. I hate to say it but the new owner of Pimpingtons lives in my town (Palisade, CO) and is blatantly advertising the he buys landowner tags in the local want ads. I pointed that out to the DOW but they don't really care.

 

[G3]

I am finding out how hard this is actually going to be unless a tag broker is used. Sucks that it has to be this way to get a landowner tag but this is the world we live in. Thanks for the help and I will be in Colorado in November regardless as my friend and hunting partner drew a tag this year.
G3

 

[TwoDogs]

BeanDude.......that's an ugly comment, man. A guy who puts time, effort, and $$$ into finding vouchers should be rewarded financially. It's a business, same as any other.

Just curious, why do you view a voucher-broker as a sleaseball???

 

[Founder]

Ya, BeanMan, what's wrong with Dennis (Owner of Alan Pennington Hunts, LLC)? He's a great guy. He and Alan have been supporting this site for many years. He's helped many guys go on great hunts (never me though....DENNIS...hint, hint...great deal on super voucher would be nice!! LOL).

Anyway, Dennis, Dan, Garth and the others spend a lot of time on the phone, going door to door, working on relationships with landowners and doing the work that many landowners and hunters don't want to do. Lots of landowners have no interest in dealing with all the phone calls. Do you have any idea how many tire kickers a guide or tag broker has to talk to before finding a buyer? It is work. Landowners don't want to do it.
In this day and age, landowners know that if they wanted to sale the vouchers themselves, they could. They could run ads, etc. BUT, many don't, they choose to let Dennis, Dan, Garth and others deal with all that and they're willing to give those guys a cut of the action.

It's funny that it just drives so many people nuts when it comes to Colorado Landowner Vouchers.

G3 - You could get lucky and have a landowner call you tomorrow offering a good deal on a voucher, but chances are you probably won't get that call. In the end, if anyone wants to avoid the middleman, then they'll probably have to do the work of the middleman.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com

 

[Christian]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-04-10 AT 08:09AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jun-04-10 AT 08:09?AM (MST)

Colordo vouchers have been around for years, but it wasn't until the "tag pimps" came along that the average joe (as most everyone on here proudly calls himself) had a chance at finding one.

Very few if any nonresidents would drive to Colorado in early June and start knocking on doors, or run ads, or network to forge relationships with the Landowners (who, by the way, feed much of Colorodo's big game) as the so called "tag pimps" have. Yet many of these NR "hate" the tag pimps. Hilarious.

Be careful if you're an average joe and you buy a LO voucher as you'll be labeled an elitist who is contributing to the decline of hunting, not to mention supporting a greedy landowner who doesn't hunt and therefore is a lesser human then we are.

If you don't want a middleman, take a week off, drive to your interested unit, go to the county courthouse and get a list of property owners, call everyone of them, hope they'll talk to you, hope they are actually signed up for the Landowner voucher program (if they arent', hurry and talk them into signing up)then offer them your cut-rate deal and hope they don't know a "tag pimp" who can get them more money than you ever thought the tag was worth. Then you can get your tag at what you feel is fair market value.

That's how you eliminate the middleman.

Or you can do what DKMuleybuck does and offer free labor to the landowner and earn a voucher. I think when he calculted his time investement, it was something like half of minimum wage. Of course he lives in Colorado so knows many landowners which will give him an "unfair" advantage over us average joes. We should start a thread on the unfair advantage Colorado residents have at contacting landowners. There has to be "evil" there somewhere.

Maybe CDOW doesn't do anything about the middleman because they actually see the value of supporting landowners who provide habitat for Colorado's big game?

The Christian

 

[DougW]

Christian- you conveniently leave out one important fact: the vouchers can be used to hunt the entire unit they are sold in (public land). You might want to include that part in your description before accusing folks of having personal vendettas.

 

[Christian]

DougW
only left it out because everyone knows they're unit wide. That's what gives them their value.

The private property vouchers are worth much less because in many units there is little game on private property during the seasons.

For the record, I have bought two landowner vouchers over the years: one for $225 and one for $500. Those same vouchers are now $3500 and $1000 respectively which I won't afford.

I'm not bitter because that is what they are worth in today's market and I've seen the positives first-hand of landowners who control big-game habitat being compensated handsomly. They become pro-hunter and that is valuable to me.

The Christian

 

[hornaddiction]

(From Colorado DOW website)
5. Landowner vouchers may be transferred one time only, and shall only be
transferred by the landowner to the hunter that will use the voucher to
purchase the license. Third-party brokering of landowner vouchers is not
permitted. Violation of this subsection shall invalidate the applicable
landowner voucher and any license purchased with it.
----------------------------------------------------------

I copied this straight off of the Colorado DOW website. So here is my question to those that think brokering in Colorado is ok?

Does it make it right for tag brokers to break the law just because Colorado does not enforce their own law??? I dont think so!!

Poaching is also against the law in Colorado! If the DOW did not enforce laws against poaching would it be ok to poach?? I dont think so!!!

I am not trying to have a pissing match with anyone but if its illegal then its not ok to break the law because the state does not enforce the law!

Just my 2 cents!!

 

[ORIONTHEHUNTER]

That is part of the problem with our society not enough people with balls enough to enforce laws. I could care less if someone buys a landowner voucher, but it appears that these "tag pimps" are breaking the law so the DOW needs to do something about it or get rid of the law if they do not want to enforce it.

 

[Christian]

If they are breaking the law, I agree, stop them.

The Christian

 

[infinitecircles]

I questioned the Colorado DWR about this issue last year. I didn't want to get a voucher and not have it be valid. What I was told is that "Brokering" means the "Tag Pimp" buys the vouchers from the land owner and then resells them for a profit.

What is legal is for the "Tag Pimp" to act as a sales representative for the respective land owners and for him to draw a fee or commission off of the sale of the voucher.

Just the way it was explained to me.

 

[Christian]

infinitecircles

You're right, and I was waiting for someone to make that point. Before the law change, tag brokers could actually buy the tag, then sell it again.

That was outlawed, However, to receive a commission from the LO for selling a tag for him is not illegal. It's still considered fair trade. As said, most landowners don't want to be in charge of marketing, nor do they understand the hunting business enough to do so, hence the tag brokers.

My opinion is that CDOW didn't overlook this loophole. They obviously have a vested interest in rewarding Colorado Landonwers for wintering/feeding big game. As do I.

So for anyone who is anti-tag pimps, there you go. Close that loophole, too, if you think there is no value for landonwers to be handsomly compensated.

The Christian

 

[DougW]

I fully support landowners who assist the DOW in managing herds, and who help preserve or enhance good habitat. They should be rewarded. Good hunter relations for large private holdings are crucial for a lot of wildlife enhancement issues.

But can't we figure out a way to do that without short-circuiting the preference point system via the almighty $$$$ ?
If the voucher values decreased as a result of not allowing public land access, surely there are other ways to foster and enhance DOW-landowner relations, including increasing $$ compensation (for crop damage etc., e.g., allowing access for hunters, etc.) where it is deserved. Were any alternatives considered when the voucher process began? I don't have the answers, just trying to discuss.....

 

[tailchasers]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-04-10 AT 11:56AM (MST)[p]Thanks for the quote from the DOW, I didn't realize this was not on the up-n-up. Seems if there is an issue with the middleman then maybe the state Attorney General or DOW legal department could be contacted and informed of the situation if this issue bothers so many. Then maybe something could be done but on the flip side it could also make the situation even worse.

I live in a part of the word where land owner voucher sales and availability are on the increase and drawing opportunities are on the decrease. I know of several locals that line up and beat on land owners doors only to be turned away because the once minimal cost tag for a cow is now up over $600 due to individuals reselling these tags for an inflated value and inform you to instead contact "Such and Such Tag Service". What was once a staple for the local residence is now a luxury and being turned in to an economic cash register for the middleman and the landowners.

When I see a landowner who has less than 200 acres with zero elk habitat and no evidence of elk ever on the property get a dozen land owner vouchers for little or nothing and then sell them off to the highest bidder then I have an real issue with how this program is administered. Then lets to forget what has already been mentioned about the majority of the landowners not allowing those who purchase this tag to hunt their land then later in the season come screaming back to the DOW needing depredation tags because the animals are damaging their property. I can't help but cry foul. This does not only fall into place with cow elk but I have also seen this true with a Deer buck landowner voucher and then seller informs the buyer they may not hunt the property.

Does the program have some issue? Yes. Are there ways to work around the issues? Yuppers. Are there alternatives to purchasing a tag for the "middleman"? Yes again as I have found out for myself.

Until the DOW does something different I don't see this game changing any until more stand up and say something. In the mean time I am gonna stay creative and still get my tags.

 

[infinitecircles]

A couple of other thoughts.

Increasing compensation to land owners requires raising funds or cutting funds from somewhere else. How much more are you willing to pay for your resident deer tag to replace the monies generated by voucher sales.

Who else benefits from voucher sales and what would be the impact on them. I would guess that the bulk are sold to nonresidents. What impact would there be on the motels, gas stations, outfitters, restaurants, non-res license sales, souvenirs etc.

I don't think it's fair that if a non resident exchanges a voucher for a tag it cost them $326 but if a resident exchanges that same voucher it costs like $35. It's the same tag, make everyone pay the same for a tag redeemed via voucher. That would be fair right?

I believe Colorado wants the vouchers to be sold to non-residents, look how much more revenue they get from the sales off of licenses.

Lastly, do people have issues with vouchers in units that can be drawn with 0 points or even as second choice permits? Or is it only in the units that take a couple of points that vouchers are "bad".

All I can say is be careful what you wish for. I have 2 young sons that if things don't change, may never get to hunt a limited unit here in Utah due to point creep and management philosophy.

 

[ORIONTHEHUNTER]

Isn't a "tag pimp" a third person broker, if so it sounds like it is illegal. The law says it must be transferred from a landowner to the hunter. I guess I am not seeing where "tag pimping" is legal.

 

[justdada]

I seem to recall the writing of such in Colorado is; that the tag can be transferred only from the landowner to the hunter, and if a third party is involved, the tag becomes VOID. So if you are going through a broker you are essentially hunting without a valid tag... I'll have to look into that again.

 

[REDDOG]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-04-10 AT 12:55PM (MST)[p]>Isn't a "tag pimp" a third
>person broker, if so it
>sounds like it is illegal.
> The law says it
>must be transferred from a
>landowner to the hunter.
>I guess I am not
>seeing where "tag pimping" is
>legal.


The voucher is mailed directly from the landowner to the hunter...the broker or "facilitator" never see's it...they just find a buyer for the landowner.

 

[Snuffy]

G3
Back to your original question, since this has been beat to death in another post.
I suggest putting your own add in the paper in the area you want to hunt asking for land owner tags for unit?.
This has worked for me and no middle man.
Usally make a good contact and do this for normally $200.00 dollars for a deer tag depending on the unit.
Rick

 

[Christian]

G3,
my apologies for co-highjacking your post. Best of luck in your search. Snuffy's pointed you in the right direction.

The Christian

 

[TwoDogs]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-04-10 AT 06:54PM (MST)[p]Founder,

FYI......I used Dennis Gillilan @ Alan Pennington Hunts to acquire a very expensive voucher for me last fall. He was a class act and did every last thing he said he would do. I trust him completely.

On another note, some of the posters here are waaaaaaaay off base about the legality of Dennis' operation. Vouchers are assignable only once, but they DO NOT get assigned from the landowner to Dennis to the buyer. Dennis does his research to locate these vouchers, then he "hooks you up" and facilitates payment and voucher delivery by the landowner. He is a facilitator, kind of a consultant. The landowner signs the voucher directly over to the buyer.

 

[REDDOG]

I there an echo in here?

 

[BeanMan]

Out camping in 61 for the weekend so I missed the stink.

OK since it is illegal for 'facilitators' to buy tags why is he advertising in the local rag that he will buy landowner vouchers?

Acting in an illegal fashion doesn't make him Robin Hood.

 

[Founder]

I think it's a bad idea (and not right) to accuse someone of breaking the law when your evidence is obviously nothing that the state attorney thinks is worth a crap, otherwise there would be charges filed against some tag brokers.

You can have your opinion, but posting on this site that one of our advertisers is breaking the law, is really crappy. And you could be putting yourself at risk. If you can prove it, then you should talk with CDOW and state attorneys. If you can't prove it, then you should probably just keep that "opinion" in your head. You wouldn't want someone saying that about you.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com

 

[REDDOG]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-07-10 AT 02:39PM (MST)[p]>Out camping in 61 for the
>weekend so I missed the
>stink.
>
>OK since it is illegal for
>'facilitators' to buy tags why
>is he advertising in the
>local rag that he will
>buy landowner vouchers?
>
>Acting in an illegal fashion doesn't
>make him Robin Hood.


Dont know if a case can be made from the wording of said advertisement, and I aint sticking up for him...But I highly doubt he is doing the buying...But I've no doubt he has buyers lined up.

I know you dont like the LO tags Bean, I've bought them in the past and some of the things going on are BS. but I doubt you'd catch a facilitator buying and re-selling, regardless the of the wording in the add.

I mean, from a business standpoint, it sounds better to say "I will buy your landowner tags" rather than "I may be able to find someone to buy your landowner tags"..

 

[G3]

And to think all I wanted was a little info on buying landowner tags in Colorado. Whew.
G3

 

[Founder]

LOL....The Colorado Voucher subject is very touchy. There are those who are REALLY against the whole thing....WITH PASSION TOO!!
Good entertainment and fun to debate it all.

So G3, what did you decide to do? You going to start calling landowners, make a trip over there, watch ebay and the online papers, or use a broker?

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com

 

[G3]

After doing a bunch of research over the last couple of days I have realized one thing for sure, people are looking at this year in Colorado as one for the books. There has been more "buzz" this year about season dates and quality of the hunt than I can ever remember. That being said I feel it is going to be very hard to find a tag and being new at this part of the game I have decided to go with the Huntin' Fool to help me find a tag. I think the guys at the Huntin' Fool are pretty stand up guys and have had nothing but good experiences with them so far. With the shear demand on Colorado this year this is what I feel gives me the best chance. Call me crazy or whatever I just want to hunt. Thanks and sorry for causing such a stir.
G3

 

[BeanMan]

G3,

If you do find yourself a tag and it is in a part of Colorado that I know I will be happy to share information with you. I don't have a problem with the hunter, just the process.

 

[G3]

Thanks and I will hopefully be hunting unit 62. I know it is not on the list of better units but should be fun. Thanks for the offer BeanMan.

 

[Gator]

Maybe the ad show read "I will facilitates payment for your Landowner tags/Vouchers please call me".
Hell I have read in the paper people getting arrested for say I'm going to kill you, Do they mean it or not don't really matter because they are sitting in Jail.
Wording is a problem as I see it DOW should do a better job on taking care of problems just like this.



Now back to the question check Craigslist in all the towns around the area you want to hunt. Good Luck

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".

 

[Longshot81]

Send me an e-mail i think i can help

 

[Lawrence]

If you want to go on a "hunt of a lifetime", there is a Gunnison Basin deer voucher advertised in "Hunts & Tags Classifieds" for $13,500.00.

 

[Bomber]

I am responding to your earlier post concerning landowner vouchers; do you have access to any deer vouchers? I am looking for two (2) vouchers for a decent unit at a fair price. My brother and I have a lot of experience and simply want the opportunity to hunt in 2010.

Thanks, Paul

 

[jaegermeister]

I may be able to help you out with some L.O. tags. Send me a P.M. if your still intrested.

 

[Longshot81]

I can give you the number of a guy that has 2 muzz buck tags you can pm for his number.