Thoughts?
- Thread starter kawboy
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elkassassin
Long Time Member
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That Ain't Nuttin!
One of these Days I'll SPLAIN to you what a Long Shot is with a 7 Mag!
The Dew I had for Breakfast wasn't Bad so I had one more for Dessert!
One of these Days I'll SPLAIN to you what a Long Shot is with a 7 Mag!
The Dew I had for Breakfast wasn't Bad so I had one more for Dessert!
crazeymaez
Very Active Member
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I really wish he would have rushed the shot and knocked out his beaver teeth.Looks like Utahrd to me..
HorseCreek
Very Active Member
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Not really my cup O tea but the kid can flat out shoot! I'd like to save my pennies and buy one of their rifles one day. It'd be kinda fun. But then again I like to be within 30 yards of my quarry.
Traditional >>>------->
Traditional >>>------->
BrowningRage
Long Time Member
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Frankly, with the turrets, its not that impressive. I get it, it's a long piece out to that bull... But dialing the crosshairs right onto it, I dunno, just makes it less impressive.
I think optics with turrets should not be allowed. retical dots and stuff are good enough. I dunno. It's 2:25am and I just wasn't impressed. Maybe tomorrow will be a different story. Until then - Down with scopes with turrets for hunting.!!
"Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!" 2 Ne. 28: 24
I think optics with turrets should not be allowed. retical dots and stuff are good enough. I dunno. It's 2:25am and I just wasn't impressed. Maybe tomorrow will be a different story. Until then - Down with scopes with turrets for hunting.!!
"Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!" 2 Ne. 28: 24
elkassassin
Long Time Member
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- 37,329
>I really wish he would have
>rushed the shot and knocked
>out his beaver teeth.Looks like
>Utahrd to me..
You can't even Spell TARD!
You want CUPSY to give you a Grammar Lesson?
The Dew I had for Breakfast wasn't Bad so I had one more for Dessert!
>rushed the shot and knocked
>out his beaver teeth.Looks like
>Utahrd to me..
You can't even Spell TARD!
You want CUPSY to give you a Grammar Lesson?
The Dew I had for Breakfast wasn't Bad so I had one more for Dessert!
crazeymaez
Very Active Member
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- 1,513
Lessons please.just dont let the first word be trotline
> Frankly, with the turrets, its
>not that impressive. I get
>it, it's a long piece
>out to that bull... But
>dialing the crosshairs right onto
>it, I dunno, just makes
>it less impressive.
>
> I think optics with turrets
>should not be allowed. retical
>dots and stuff are good
>enough. I dunno. It's 2:25am
>and I just wasn't impressed.
>Maybe tomorrow will be a
>different story. Until then -
>Down with scopes with turrets
>for hunting.!!
You don't just run to Wal-Mart pick up a scope with turrets and hit everything out to 1000 yards. There is a lot of work that goes into long range shooting. Load development, testing scope tracking, developing range charts, etc. All of this am mounts to more range time in one summer than most people get in 10 years. To me if you put in the work and do it in a responsible manner I'm all for long range hunting.
>not that impressive. I get
>it, it's a long piece
>out to that bull... But
>dialing the crosshairs right onto
>it, I dunno, just makes
>it less impressive.
>
> I think optics with turrets
>should not be allowed. retical
>dots and stuff are good
>enough. I dunno. It's 2:25am
>and I just wasn't impressed.
>Maybe tomorrow will be a
>different story. Until then -
>Down with scopes with turrets
>for hunting.!!
You don't just run to Wal-Mart pick up a scope with turrets and hit everything out to 1000 yards. There is a lot of work that goes into long range shooting. Load development, testing scope tracking, developing range charts, etc. All of this am mounts to more range time in one summer than most people get in 10 years. To me if you put in the work and do it in a responsible manner I'm all for long range hunting.
Cornhusker
Long Time Member
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I'm with Bess on this one that isn't hunting, just shooting. IMO the kid would have had a better experience if he would have put a stock on the bull and made a shot where the bull actually looked like a real animal rather than an image on one of those hunting video games.
elkfromabove
Very Active Member
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My thoughts? Great shoot, sorry hunt!
opbuckslayer
Active Member
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I'm with gknutsen on this. I used to think the "long range crowd" were a bunch of fags but have changed my opinion since starting to practice on steel out to 700 yds so far with my 300 win mag with custom turret. There is alot of technology and practice that goes into it and putting a live critter in the scope eliminates many from making a shot half as far as Davidson's kid did. That wasn't some dik with a walmart rifle/scope combo and a box of corelokts holding 10 ft over and seeing what happens, they practice daily I'm sure.
I'm curious Corn, knowing that the kids family owns Gunwerks what would give you the opinion that if the kid was able to stalk to bow range he would of had a better experience? I doubt it. He was with his pops doing what they do and that made it an experience of a lifetime I'm sure. Take your high horse back to the barn and lets just give kudos to the Davidsons for having the equipment and ability to make that happen. I would rather see that then a dik that has no ability with a bow at 30 yds and trust me there are plenty of those guys out there to.
I'm curious Corn, knowing that the kids family owns Gunwerks what would give you the opinion that if the kid was able to stalk to bow range he would of had a better experience? I doubt it. He was with his pops doing what they do and that made it an experience of a lifetime I'm sure. Take your high horse back to the barn and lets just give kudos to the Davidsons for having the equipment and ability to make that happen. I would rather see that then a dik that has no ability with a bow at 30 yds and trust me there are plenty of those guys out there to.
LAST EDITED ON Jun-01-13 AT 02:59PM (MST)[p]I'm only going to make one post on this subject, as I'm tired of getting into pissing contests when this subject comes up and most will know what I'm going to say before they read this. All this long range crap like that video portrays is shooting, not hunting in my book. The only reason that video was posted up on utube was to sell equipment Aaron makes, not to show the hunt or that his son can shoot. The same can be said of that video John Burns posted a year or two ago with that young girl shooting a cow elk with a .243 at 600+ yards. She had never shot at a big game animal at any distance or ever shot that gun of his and to let her do that was ridiculous IMHO! I know a lot of long range people really gave him heck for it too. After all, this Davidson kid missed the first shot and I'm surprised they even showed that one! Also, what astounds me is people that condone this stuff evidently don't realize that even at over 3000 fps that bullet starts out at, it is going take well over one second to get to that bull at that long distance. In that time frame that animal can take one step and the shot will go from a kill zone shot to a miss, or even worse, a gut or ham shot animal that is probably not going to be recovered. God knows how many feet over the top of that bull that bullet is starting out at and I don't see how in the world it would have enough ft./lbs. of energy to kill an animal that big if the shot hit and was off a tad. If the shot is at a reasonable distance, even if the animal starts to move, you are still probably going to hit him close to where the shot should be placed and humanely take him. IMHO a majestic animal like a big buck or bull, or any animal as far as that goes, deserves a lot more than what that video shows. Many people buying that equipment see it as an easy way to increase their success and won't spend the time and money to do as a post above stated that is needed to even attempt a shot like that. That's been my feelings all along on this subject and it will never change because of what I mentioned here.
Stonefly
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That's nothin, Yesterday my son hit a 10" bullseye 21 times out of 21 times, Its was easy for him. He does it all the time. he shoots for about 2 hours a day ( if we let him )oh ya the range was 30 yards and he used an old recurve bow I bought in 1982 to do it. He shoots at targets out to 45 yards, but wont shoot at an animal beyond 30 . His bow doesnt have turrets, or even sights. But he usually comes home with his Elk every year. Not a big bull, usually a cow or spike. Couldn't really tell how big that Bull was in the video, I could tell it was an elk tho. His last was shot at 21 yards, My last was shot at 8 yds. We probably have no more desire to learn to shoot like that , than they have to learn to hunt. To each his own I guess. Didn't keep watching to see the end results with the bull on the ground ,but, assumed it was harvested. I hope my Friends and Family always love Hunting the way I do, My kinda Hunting might not be your cup of tea, but up close and personal with Big Game sure is ours.
opbuckslayer
Active Member
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- 892
Good post Stonefly, to each his own is the key statement. I've never shot a critter more than 350 yds nor would I ever attempt what they did. At the same time I'm not an archer or archery hunter so I have no business picking up a bow and trying what you do without proper gear and tons of practice. It just comes down to being responsible for ones self and knowing your capabilities and not for what everybody else does or doesn't do. If we are going to get on the "eliminate technology" from hunting soapbox then we should go back to 30-30 iron sight rifles,flintlock black powder and recurve bows and get rid of all the technology. The its only right or good if I'm doing it or like it preaching gets a little old guys. Once again, to each his own.
E
elkun
Guest
no no and no,,,,,,,learning to hunt.and being good at it is hard,,, learning to shoot any women or kid can do it.....
Only a couple hundred more yards and it would have been a mile away. I remember the first time I had to stalk within a mile from an elk..... I agree it is one impressive shot. But its just not for me. I also don't think it is very sporting. kind of like shooting turkeys out of their roost.
K
klbzdad
Guest
I don't care who makes the rifle, how much practice they have at a target, how many laptops they have to calculate wind drift, elevation, and muzzle speed, and I could care less if the kid is happy or not! Who's to say there wasn't a hunter on the ridge in between the kid and the bull who had just spent gobs of time getting closer to that bull for a shot but instead had to suddenly listen to someone lob lead over their head hoping not to get hit while knowing their hunt was just ruined by a SHOOTER and not a hunter!!! Teach your kids how to HUNT. A monkey can be trained to pull a trigger after putting cross hairs or a dot on a target. That's all I've got on this subject.
"There is no reason why I have to tolerate your stupidity if you are unwilling to tolerate mine." ME
"There is no reason why I have to tolerate your stupidity if you are unwilling to tolerate mine." ME
tailchasers
Long Time Member
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Are we teaching people hunting or shooting? Or is the new age of hunting just about shooting?
"Courage is being scared to death but saddling up anyway."
"Courage is being scared to death but saddling up anyway."
I was booted from the long range hunting forum by Len Backus for posting and bashing on this video.
First of all, you do not go out and buy a scope with turrets and hit a milk jug sized target every time at 1K. I'd say your average shooter on this website can shoot 350-400 yards. You have load development, atmospheric conditions, validated velocities (not just from a chronograph), perfect technique and wind doping. To name just a few of the factors... So by all means, the fact that he even hit it was impressive. I'm sure the kid is an incredible shooter. I'm all for people honing their skills and becoming proficient marksman to make these shots.
Where it ruffles my feathers is when you run the numbers of that load through any ballistics program, it's far from ethical. The sustained energy is not even close to sufficient. The Davidson's like to take the high shoulder shot to put them DRT for TV and advertising's sake. With the good bullets they use and a good high shoulder shot, a bull doesn't run off that far down hill like it did when shot at an ethical distance for that specific caliber/load. With the load he's using in the video, he should not be shooting past 700-800 yards max on ELK.
First of all, you do not go out and buy a scope with turrets and hit a milk jug sized target every time at 1K. I'd say your average shooter on this website can shoot 350-400 yards. You have load development, atmospheric conditions, validated velocities (not just from a chronograph), perfect technique and wind doping. To name just a few of the factors... So by all means, the fact that he even hit it was impressive. I'm sure the kid is an incredible shooter. I'm all for people honing their skills and becoming proficient marksman to make these shots.
Where it ruffles my feathers is when you run the numbers of that load through any ballistics program, it's far from ethical. The sustained energy is not even close to sufficient. The Davidson's like to take the high shoulder shot to put them DRT for TV and advertising's sake. With the good bullets they use and a good high shoulder shot, a bull doesn't run off that far down hill like it did when shot at an ethical distance for that specific caliber/load. With the load he's using in the video, he should not be shooting past 700-800 yards max on ELK.
LAST EDITED ON Jun-03-13 AT 09:17PM (MST)[p]>I was booted from the long
>range hunting forum by Len
>Backus for posting and bashing
>on this video.
>
>First of all, you do not
>go out and buy a
>scope with turrets and hit
>a milk jug sized target
>every time at 1K. I'd
>say your average shooter on
>this website can shoot 350-400
>yards. You have load development,
>atmospheric conditions, validated velocities (not
>just from a chronograph), perfect
>technique and wind doping. To
>name just a few of
>the factors... So by all
>means, the fact that he
>even hit it was impressive.
>I'm sure the kid is
>an incredible shooter. I'm all
>for people honing their skills
>and becoming proficient marksman to
>make these shots.
>
>Where it ruffles my feathers is
>when you run the numbers
>of that load through any
>ballistics program, it's far from
>ethical. The sustained energy is
>not even close to sufficient.
>The Davidson's like to take
>the high shoulder shot to
>put them DRT for TV
>and advertising's sake. With the
>good bullets they use and
>a good high shoulder shot,
>a bull doesn't run off
>that far down hill like
>it did when shot at
>an ethical distance for that
>specific caliber/load. With the load
>he's using in the video,
>he should not be shooting
>past 700-800 yards max on
>ELK.
***I went on that LR thread and asked if someone could run the stats on that bullet and caliber and the answer was about 908 ft./lbs. at that 1376 yard distance. That's not quite as low as I thought it might be, but less than what I would want to hit a big bull with. Oops, I said I was only going to make one post on this---sorry!
>range hunting forum by Len
>Backus for posting and bashing
>on this video.
>
>First of all, you do not
>go out and buy a
>scope with turrets and hit
>a milk jug sized target
>every time at 1K. I'd
>say your average shooter on
>this website can shoot 350-400
>yards. You have load development,
>atmospheric conditions, validated velocities (not
>just from a chronograph), perfect
>technique and wind doping. To
>name just a few of
>the factors... So by all
>means, the fact that he
>even hit it was impressive.
>I'm sure the kid is
>an incredible shooter. I'm all
>for people honing their skills
>and becoming proficient marksman to
>make these shots.
>
>Where it ruffles my feathers is
>when you run the numbers
>of that load through any
>ballistics program, it's far from
>ethical. The sustained energy is
>not even close to sufficient.
>The Davidson's like to take
>the high shoulder shot to
>put them DRT for TV
>and advertising's sake. With the
>good bullets they use and
>a good high shoulder shot,
>a bull doesn't run off
>that far down hill like
>it did when shot at
>an ethical distance for that
>specific caliber/load. With the load
>he's using in the video,
>he should not be shooting
>past 700-800 yards max on
>ELK.
***I went on that LR thread and asked if someone could run the stats on that bullet and caliber and the answer was about 908 ft./lbs. at that 1376 yard distance. That's not quite as low as I thought it might be, but less than what I would want to hit a big bull with. Oops, I said I was only going to make one post on this---sorry!
I would compare it to high fence hunting. It is legal, just not within my own ethics.
I like to challenge my wits vs the animals. To me, shooting an animal from a thousand yards a way or in a pen, doesn't do that. It kind of seems like cheating to me. That's just my opinion.
I read a study where certain men in certain Mos's dealt with killing men on a battlefield differently. It was concluded that men who did their killing up close and personal in combat, described it as intimate. Those who did it from far, it was just pushing a button.
I know its apples to oranges, but I like the intimacy of hunting. I think if it was like pushing a button, it would take something from the hunt away.
I like to challenge my wits vs the animals. To me, shooting an animal from a thousand yards a way or in a pen, doesn't do that. It kind of seems like cheating to me. That's just my opinion.
I read a study where certain men in certain Mos's dealt with killing men on a battlefield differently. It was concluded that men who did their killing up close and personal in combat, described it as intimate. Those who did it from far, it was just pushing a button.
I know its apples to oranges, but I like the intimacy of hunting. I think if it was like pushing a button, it would take something from the hunt away.
Hunting = good times, hanging out with pals and family, great memories as far back as I can remember, vacation to get away even for a couple of days, awesome meals! Stories my dad always told me, new stories to tell my kids etc etc etc; if we are lucky enough to get an opportunity at a shot at an animal that we appreciate that is just icing on the cake, even if that shot is out to 600 yds (my comfort distance)
elkfromabove
Very Active Member
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>Why isn't it hunting? Same hills,
>same legal method of harvest,
>he spotted him legally didn't
>he? He is with is
>pop in the hills having
>a great time and making
>memories.
It is hunting! Just not my prefered style. I prefer to put more of myself into the challenge of outwitting a formidable foe and I prefer more flexibility. Wild animals are too unpredicatable to limit yourself to only one method of hunting per your practice and equipment.
Wouldn't it/won't it be ironic if, after all that long distance practice and equipment, he should bump a bigger bedded bull within 50 yards that bolts into the trees before the turret/scope can be adjusted or the gun steadied. Or he bumps a bigger bull on his way to recover the one he just shot.
>same legal method of harvest,
>he spotted him legally didn't
>he? He is with is
>pop in the hills having
>a great time and making
>memories.
It is hunting! Just not my prefered style. I prefer to put more of myself into the challenge of outwitting a formidable foe and I prefer more flexibility. Wild animals are too unpredicatable to limit yourself to only one method of hunting per your practice and equipment.
Wouldn't it/won't it be ironic if, after all that long distance practice and equipment, he should bump a bigger bedded bull within 50 yards that bolts into the trees before the turret/scope can be adjusted or the gun steadied. Or he bumps a bigger bull on his way to recover the one he just shot.
When I ran the load I think I came out with a figure closer to 500 ft/lbs. Even 900 is not enough IMO. That's why it ran off like it did, even being shot through the high shoulder. I almost guarantee it took a finishing shot when they finally tracked it down. I'm all for extreme long range hunting, but with an adequate load.
That video was made just to sell guns.
That video was made just to sell guns.
Southpawshooter
Active Member
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- 265
LAST EDITED ON Jun-04-13 AT 12:26PM (MST)[p]I do not know the exact load the kid was using. It says he was using a 7mag.
I ran 7mm mag, 180 Berger Bullets (G7 = .337) with 3050 feet per second, 40 degree weather, at 8000'. The result was 1155 ft-lbs, 1700 ft/sec, at 1400 yards. At 1300 yards it was 1270 ft-lbs @ 1783 ft/sec.
A 168 berger (G7 = .316) at 3150 would get 1074 ft-lbs at 1400 yards and 1189 ft-lbs at 1300 yards. Obviously, you would get more ft/sec with a lower bullet weight.
At 10,000 feet with the 168 Berger (3150 ft/sec) had a result of 1267 ft-lbs at 1300 yards and 1152 ft-lbs at 1400 yards.
Since we do not know their exact ft/sec (and I did not hear the bullet weight on the video), or altitude, or temp, then we really do not know that gun's ft-lbs. What we do know is the elk is dead.
I subscribe to the 1200 ft-lbs to kill in elk and 800 ft-lbs to kill a deer.
I ran 7mm mag, 180 Berger Bullets (G7 = .337) with 3050 feet per second, 40 degree weather, at 8000'. The result was 1155 ft-lbs, 1700 ft/sec, at 1400 yards. At 1300 yards it was 1270 ft-lbs @ 1783 ft/sec.
A 168 berger (G7 = .316) at 3150 would get 1074 ft-lbs at 1400 yards and 1189 ft-lbs at 1300 yards. Obviously, you would get more ft/sec with a lower bullet weight.
At 10,000 feet with the 168 Berger (3150 ft/sec) had a result of 1267 ft-lbs at 1300 yards and 1152 ft-lbs at 1400 yards.
Since we do not know their exact ft/sec (and I did not hear the bullet weight on the video), or altitude, or temp, then we really do not know that gun's ft-lbs. What we do know is the elk is dead.
I subscribe to the 1200 ft-lbs to kill in elk and 800 ft-lbs to kill a deer.
>LAST EDITED ON Jun-04-13
>AT 12:26?PM (MST)
>
>I do not know the exact
>load the kid was using.
>It says he was using
>a 7mag.
>
>I ran 7mm mag, 180 Berger
>Bullets (G7 = .337) with
>3050 feet per second, 40
>degree weather, at 8000'.
>The result was 1155 ft-lbs,
>1700 ft/sec, at 1400 yards.
> At 1300 yards it
>was 1270 ft-lbs @ 1783
>ft/sec.
>
>A 168 berger (G7 = .316)
>at 3150 would get 1074
>ft-lbs at 1400 yards and
>1189 ft-lbs at 1300 yards.
> Obviously, you would get
>more ft/sec with a lower
>bullet weight.
>
>At 10,000 feet with the 168
>Berger (3150 ft/sec) had a
>result of 1267 ft-lbs at
>1300 yards and 1152 ft-lbs
>at 1400 yards.
>
>Since we do not know their
>exact ft/sec (and I did
>not hear the bullet weight
>on the video), or altitude,
>or temp, then we really
>do not know that gun's
>ft-lbs. What we do
>know is the elk is
>dead.
>
>I subscribe to the 1200 ft-lbs
>to kill in elk and
>800 ft-lbs to kill a
>deer.
I came up with slightly lower numbers when I ran those loads but none the less, it's not enough. I know that Aaron Davidson likes to have his kids shoot their 6XC or the 6.5x284 quite often as well.
If it was either of those it's no where near enough energy @ POI. Once again, I like extreme long range hunting and the art of it and am getting into it myself. AS LONG AS IT'S WITH SUFFICIENT LOADS AT PROPER DISTANCES.
>AT 12:26?PM (MST)
>
>I do not know the exact
>load the kid was using.
>It says he was using
>a 7mag.
>
>I ran 7mm mag, 180 Berger
>Bullets (G7 = .337) with
>3050 feet per second, 40
>degree weather, at 8000'.
>The result was 1155 ft-lbs,
>1700 ft/sec, at 1400 yards.
> At 1300 yards it
>was 1270 ft-lbs @ 1783
>ft/sec.
>
>A 168 berger (G7 = .316)
>at 3150 would get 1074
>ft-lbs at 1400 yards and
>1189 ft-lbs at 1300 yards.
> Obviously, you would get
>more ft/sec with a lower
>bullet weight.
>
>At 10,000 feet with the 168
>Berger (3150 ft/sec) had a
>result of 1267 ft-lbs at
>1300 yards and 1152 ft-lbs
>at 1400 yards.
>
>Since we do not know their
>exact ft/sec (and I did
>not hear the bullet weight
>on the video), or altitude,
>or temp, then we really
>do not know that gun's
>ft-lbs. What we do
>know is the elk is
>dead.
>
>I subscribe to the 1200 ft-lbs
>to kill in elk and
>800 ft-lbs to kill a
>deer.
I came up with slightly lower numbers when I ran those loads but none the less, it's not enough. I know that Aaron Davidson likes to have his kids shoot their 6XC or the 6.5x284 quite often as well.
If it was either of those it's no where near enough energy @ POI. Once again, I like extreme long range hunting and the art of it and am getting into it myself. AS LONG AS IT'S WITH SUFFICIENT LOADS AT PROPER DISTANCES.
Bwht4x4
Very Active Member
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- 1,429
I wouldn't shed a tear if they outlawed turrets, trail cams, baiting (where allowed currently), scoped muzzle loaders, etc. Hunting is getting so advanced and hunters are becoming so successful that the wildlife agencies have to account for this. In the end it's just lower tag numbers and more reductions for all of us due to a few.
In the end, that video is sad to me because it takes the hunter (the kid) out of the "excitement distance." Like it was said earlier the kid was just shooting. Had he worked in to a couple hundred yards over an hour or two all the while getting more and more nervous and anxious he'd be hunting and giving the elk a chance too. Not to mention the memories of getting closer are burned into the memory deeper than a 1300 yard shot where you can basically stand out in the open and talk nearly as loud as you want.
In the end, that video is sad to me because it takes the hunter (the kid) out of the "excitement distance." Like it was said earlier the kid was just shooting. Had he worked in to a couple hundred yards over an hour or two all the while getting more and more nervous and anxious he'd be hunting and giving the elk a chance too. Not to mention the memories of getting closer are burned into the memory deeper than a 1300 yard shot where you can basically stand out in the open and talk nearly as loud as you want.
Gator
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 18,139
I agree the video was to sell product, But you can't take away the joy the kid had with his father there, How many kids that don't have fathers to stand next to them in a moment like that.
I KNOW I raised 2 foster boys that got to have that moment.
"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
I KNOW I raised 2 foster boys that got to have that moment.
"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
Bwht4x4
Very Active Member
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- 1,429
>Bwht4X4, What do you suggest we
>hunters use as equipment to
>make it all fair and
>square? mtmuley
mtmuley,
To answer your question I'm not sure, but simple things like I already mentioned...outlawing trail cams and scopes on muzzleloader, use of turrets of scopes, baiting...could be a start. Above that maybe there needs to be regulations on allowed calibers/cartridges, shell casing volumes, restrictions on barrel lengths, scope magnification, use of muzzle brakes, illuminated reticles, etc.
I'm not sure what the right answers are, but just remember a couple of things...in the last 100 years we hunters have evolved into a better and more efficient hunter with all the new technology and gadgets, but the animals we hunt are the same as they were a thousand years ago. They can evolve to deal with their environment and pressures placed on them, but no where as fast as we are creating new ways to find and harvest them.
>hunters use as equipment to
>make it all fair and
>square? mtmuley
mtmuley,
To answer your question I'm not sure, but simple things like I already mentioned...outlawing trail cams and scopes on muzzleloader, use of turrets of scopes, baiting...could be a start. Above that maybe there needs to be regulations on allowed calibers/cartridges, shell casing volumes, restrictions on barrel lengths, scope magnification, use of muzzle brakes, illuminated reticles, etc.
I'm not sure what the right answers are, but just remember a couple of things...in the last 100 years we hunters have evolved into a better and more efficient hunter with all the new technology and gadgets, but the animals we hunt are the same as they were a thousand years ago. They can evolve to deal with their environment and pressures placed on them, but no where as fast as we are creating new ways to find and harvest them.
elkfromabove
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,122
>>Bwht4X4, What do you suggest we
>>hunters use as equipment to
>>make it all fair and
>>square? mtmuley
>
>mtmuley,
>
>To answer your question I'm not
>sure, but simple things like
>I already mentioned...outlawing trail cams
>and scopes on muzzleloader, use
>of turrets of scopes, baiting...could
>be a start. Above
>that maybe there needs to
>be regulations on allowed calibers/cartridges,
>shell casing volumes, restrictions on
>barrel lengths, scope magnification, use
>of muzzle brakes, illuminated reticles,
>etc.
>
>I'm not sure what the right
>answers are, but just remember
>a couple of things...in the
>last 100 years we hunters
>have evolved into a better
>and more efficient hunter with
>all the new technology and
>gadgets, but the animals we
>hunt are the same as
>they were a thousand years
>ago. They can evolve
>to deal with their environment
>and pressures placed on them,
>but no where as fast
>as we are creating new
>ways to find and harvest
>them.
I think we give too much credit to the technology that's been developed. It appears that all it's done is make us lazier. The buck deer harvest reports from 1925 to 2011 show the success rates are more or less the same from year to year with a few spikes and drops, primarily due to weather. It may also have something to do with the herd populations and/or other factors, including either sex statewide, but us old-timers seemed to get the job done back then without red dots, lasers and speed cams.
For instance, in 1957 when I first hunted deer, the buck deer harvest rate on the general season hunt was 41.5%, while the overall deer harvest rate (including 19,757 does) was 56.4%. In 2011 the buck deer success rate was 25.2%.
And the archers don't fare much better. In 1960 (6 years before Holless Wilbur (or Wilber) Allen invented the compound bow) the buck deer archery success rate was 10.7%, but the total deer harvest rate was 18.5% (1,232 bucks and 908 does taken by 11,546 hunters). It's hard to calculate the exact stats because we don't know how many of those hunters were actually looking for a buck, but settled for a doe or how many were looking for tender doe meat. In those days, to many hunters, a young buck or doe was the goal. In any case, the 2011 archery harvest rate (bucks) was 17.4%
And the overall general deer season harvest rates are pretty standard. Since 1975 we've had a high of 38.1% (1981) and a low of 19.2% (1993), but the 35 year average (1976 to 2010) is 29.5%. The 20 year average (1991 to 2010) is 28.0%. The 10 year average (2001 to 2010) is 27.9% and the 5 year average 2006 to 2010 is 29.3%. Pretty consistant!
Bottom line, all the great new stuff you just can't wait to get your hands on may appear to make you a better hunter, but they don't make up for good ol' woodsmanship!
>>hunters use as equipment to
>>make it all fair and
>>square? mtmuley
>
>mtmuley,
>
>To answer your question I'm not
>sure, but simple things like
>I already mentioned...outlawing trail cams
>and scopes on muzzleloader, use
>of turrets of scopes, baiting...could
>be a start. Above
>that maybe there needs to
>be regulations on allowed calibers/cartridges,
>shell casing volumes, restrictions on
>barrel lengths, scope magnification, use
>of muzzle brakes, illuminated reticles,
>etc.
>
>I'm not sure what the right
>answers are, but just remember
>a couple of things...in the
>last 100 years we hunters
>have evolved into a better
>and more efficient hunter with
>all the new technology and
>gadgets, but the animals we
>hunt are the same as
>they were a thousand years
>ago. They can evolve
>to deal with their environment
>and pressures placed on them,
>but no where as fast
>as we are creating new
>ways to find and harvest
>them.
I think we give too much credit to the technology that's been developed. It appears that all it's done is make us lazier. The buck deer harvest reports from 1925 to 2011 show the success rates are more or less the same from year to year with a few spikes and drops, primarily due to weather. It may also have something to do with the herd populations and/or other factors, including either sex statewide, but us old-timers seemed to get the job done back then without red dots, lasers and speed cams.
For instance, in 1957 when I first hunted deer, the buck deer harvest rate on the general season hunt was 41.5%, while the overall deer harvest rate (including 19,757 does) was 56.4%. In 2011 the buck deer success rate was 25.2%.
And the archers don't fare much better. In 1960 (6 years before Holless Wilbur (or Wilber) Allen invented the compound bow) the buck deer archery success rate was 10.7%, but the total deer harvest rate was 18.5% (1,232 bucks and 908 does taken by 11,546 hunters). It's hard to calculate the exact stats because we don't know how many of those hunters were actually looking for a buck, but settled for a doe or how many were looking for tender doe meat. In those days, to many hunters, a young buck or doe was the goal. In any case, the 2011 archery harvest rate (bucks) was 17.4%
And the overall general deer season harvest rates are pretty standard. Since 1975 we've had a high of 38.1% (1981) and a low of 19.2% (1993), but the 35 year average (1976 to 2010) is 29.5%. The 20 year average (1991 to 2010) is 28.0%. The 10 year average (2001 to 2010) is 27.9% and the 5 year average 2006 to 2010 is 29.3%. Pretty consistant!
Bottom line, all the great new stuff you just can't wait to get your hands on may appear to make you a better hunter, but they don't make up for good ol' woodsmanship!
Bwht4x4
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,429
>A bunch of government regulation on
>what I can and can't
>use to hunt. Sorry, I
>just can't get behind ideas
>like that. mtmuley
Then you're going to have 13 y/o kids and women new to hunting taking 1,300 yard shots. That's now and in 5 years they'll be taking 2,000 yard shots from turnouts and parking areas on the edge of a wilderness. No reason to walk in if it ain't dead, right! I'm to the right on the political scale and hate new regulations as much as anyone, but self-imposed regulations will only result in more and more of this.
Laziness is becoming rampant and ingrained in our sport due to the creation and perpetuation of new tools and gadgets to make it all easier. Where my dad lives in the mid-west is the epicenter of all of it. Watching deer feed on the corn and protein powder they put out for them while they get ready to take their 800 yard shot from the deer stand that was raised on hydraulics from the bed of his truck. The hardest part of their hunt was waking up that morning and making coffee!
>what I can and can't
>use to hunt. Sorry, I
>just can't get behind ideas
>like that. mtmuley
Then you're going to have 13 y/o kids and women new to hunting taking 1,300 yard shots. That's now and in 5 years they'll be taking 2,000 yard shots from turnouts and parking areas on the edge of a wilderness. No reason to walk in if it ain't dead, right! I'm to the right on the political scale and hate new regulations as much as anyone, but self-imposed regulations will only result in more and more of this.
Laziness is becoming rampant and ingrained in our sport due to the creation and perpetuation of new tools and gadgets to make it all easier. Where my dad lives in the mid-west is the epicenter of all of it. Watching deer feed on the corn and protein powder they put out for them while they get ready to take their 800 yard shot from the deer stand that was raised on hydraulics from the bed of his truck. The hardest part of their hunt was waking up that morning and making coffee!
I agree with 4x4. I'm not all for more government restriction but at some point the game wont stand a chance. I like our rules in Idaho regarding primitive weapons. No 500 yard bull ##### muzzle loaders, it has to be traditional.
Those Gunwerks tards literally have "muzzle loaders" that are shooting 1K now. They aren't breaking any laws etc, and they are following the rules, but what's the point in having designated muzzle loader hunts? That's why we need restriction on those things.
The definition of hunting is different for everyone. The Gunwerks dudes have a lot of fun shooting extreme long range, so be it. I wouldn't do some of the things they do (IE, this video) but oh well. What's lame though is that the kid didn't even seem very excited AT ALL. I know, and have the pictures to prove it, that I was way more pumped/thrilled/stoked you name it after belly crawling for 2 hours to shoot my first doe at 90 yards when I was 12.
Those Gunwerks tards literally have "muzzle loaders" that are shooting 1K now. They aren't breaking any laws etc, and they are following the rules, but what's the point in having designated muzzle loader hunts? That's why we need restriction on those things.
The definition of hunting is different for everyone. The Gunwerks dudes have a lot of fun shooting extreme long range, so be it. I wouldn't do some of the things they do (IE, this video) but oh well. What's lame though is that the kid didn't even seem very excited AT ALL. I know, and have the pictures to prove it, that I was way more pumped/thrilled/stoked you name it after belly crawling for 2 hours to shoot my first doe at 90 yards when I was 12.
I also didn't think the kid really showed much enthusiasm or excitement in the video. It was more like he had to go on the hunt and when they finally get to that dead bull he just sort of watches in amazement that there's actually a dead animal there as compared to his sniping one on his computer games at home!
LAST EDITED ON Jun-08-13 AT 04:35PM (MST)[p]You guys that ##### and moan about the LR thing need to think a bit. Although there are no records kept, I'm betting statistically people that are actually adept at shooting extended distance wound and lose less animals than average joe $hithead that pulls his rifle out once a year and heads out "hunting". Or the many that are stuck with an arrow by guys that get into archery to extend their season. 2000 yards from a wilderness pullout? Jeezus. The LR thing has turned into a very lucrative business. So what? I for one won't stand for no turrets on my scope or how much powder my case holds. I've watched kids ventilate cow elk with numerous bullets at close range. It's really pretty. Least this kid could shoot. There's a lot of things I could ##### about that some other folks would consider normal hunting behavior. I don't know the Davidson's personally, so can't comment on if the kid was exited or not. The holier than thou stuff is a pain in the ass. mtmuley
Bwht4x4
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,429
>LAST EDITED ON Jun-08-13
>AT 04:35?PM (MST)
>
>You guys that ##### and moan
>about the LR thing need
>to think a bit. Although
>there are no records kept,
>I'm betting statistically people that
>are actually adept at shooting
>extended distance wound and lose
>less animals than average joe
>$hithead that pulls his rifle
>out once a year and
>heads out "hunting". Or the
>many that are stuck with
>an arrow by guys that
>get into archery to extend
>their season. 2000 yards from
>a wilderness pullout? Jeezus. The
>LR thing has turned into
>a very lucrative business. So
>what? I for one won't
>stand for no turrets on
>my scope or how much
>powder my case holds. I've
>watched kids ventilate cow elk
>with numerous bullets at close
>range. It's really pretty. Least
>this kid could shoot. There's
>a lot of things I
>could ##### about that some
>other folks would consider normal
>hunting behavior. I don't know
>the Davidson's personally, so can't
>comment on if the kid
>was exited or not. The
>holier than thou stuff is
>a pain in the ass.
>mtmuley
mtmuley,
This isn't an attack on you. It's a simple discussion on what some of the MM member's beliefs and opinions are on the video and the larger topic of ultra-long range hunting and gear.
With that said, I for one will keep my 400 yard max range and hope that I still draw a tag in AZ, ID or CA this year. Good luck to you mtmuley in the draws also.
>AT 04:35?PM (MST)
>
>You guys that ##### and moan
>about the LR thing need
>to think a bit. Although
>there are no records kept,
>I'm betting statistically people that
>are actually adept at shooting
>extended distance wound and lose
>less animals than average joe
>$hithead that pulls his rifle
>out once a year and
>heads out "hunting". Or the
>many that are stuck with
>an arrow by guys that
>get into archery to extend
>their season. 2000 yards from
>a wilderness pullout? Jeezus. The
>LR thing has turned into
>a very lucrative business. So
>what? I for one won't
>stand for no turrets on
>my scope or how much
>powder my case holds. I've
>watched kids ventilate cow elk
>with numerous bullets at close
>range. It's really pretty. Least
>this kid could shoot. There's
>a lot of things I
>could ##### about that some
>other folks would consider normal
>hunting behavior. I don't know
>the Davidson's personally, so can't
>comment on if the kid
>was exited or not. The
>holier than thou stuff is
>a pain in the ass.
>mtmuley
mtmuley,
This isn't an attack on you. It's a simple discussion on what some of the MM member's beliefs and opinions are on the video and the larger topic of ultra-long range hunting and gear.
With that said, I for one will keep my 400 yard max range and hope that I still draw a tag in AZ, ID or CA this year. Good luck to you mtmuley in the draws also.
mtmuley: "I'm betting statistically people that are actually adept at shooting extended distance wound and lose less animals than average joe $hithead that pulls his rifle out once a year and heads out "hunting".
***I probably would go along with that statement if you keep it to the small percentage of guys that know what they're doing. The problem is that they keep making these videos and TV shows to make it look like the average guy just needs to buy their system and a box of shells to make it happen! Instant gratification, which seems to be rampant in our society nowadays! The most disgusting one I think I've seen is the one I mentioned where John Burns takes that young girl out that had never even shot at a big game animal before or touched his gun and let's her shoot at an elk over 600 yards away with a .243! The Best of the West shows have also taken a bunch of "newbies" out that have never shot the rifle to let them show on film how "easy" it is if you buy their equipment. mtmuley, the one problem I do have with your bet is that I wonder how many will even go check for a hit at those long ranges if the animal doesn't drop on the spot like most do in those videos. However, I guess the same thing could be said about all the nimrods that don't when they are shooting at short yardages too, so it's probably a wash. This is obviously one of those topics where a lot of us will just have to agree to disagree on. Have a good day everyone!
***I probably would go along with that statement if you keep it to the small percentage of guys that know what they're doing. The problem is that they keep making these videos and TV shows to make it look like the average guy just needs to buy their system and a box of shells to make it happen! Instant gratification, which seems to be rampant in our society nowadays! The most disgusting one I think I've seen is the one I mentioned where John Burns takes that young girl out that had never even shot at a big game animal before or touched his gun and let's her shoot at an elk over 600 yards away with a .243! The Best of the West shows have also taken a bunch of "newbies" out that have never shot the rifle to let them show on film how "easy" it is if you buy their equipment. mtmuley, the one problem I do have with your bet is that I wonder how many will even go check for a hit at those long ranges if the animal doesn't drop on the spot like most do in those videos. However, I guess the same thing could be said about all the nimrods that don't when they are shooting at short yardages too, so it's probably a wash. This is obviously one of those topics where a lot of us will just have to agree to disagree on. Have a good day everyone!
