Tips for setting up my muzzleloader

JakeH

Long Time Member
Messages
3,233
Ok guys, I drew a decent late season Utah muzzy deer tag, I want to get my gun set up and shooting good and have bought some powder and bullets to try a few out and see what it likes.

Gun is a CVA Optima, I have a cheap BHA scope on it right now, and I am going to upgrade that to something else a little better.

Any tips for me while figuring out what the gun likes.

I will be using Triple 7 loose powder and have enough to last me through the hunt (I know BH 209 is better but its impossible to get and I don't want to be stuck without powder before my hunt)

I have a few different bullets to try out in different weights. mostly powerbelts, and I think some Hornady's.

Anyway what tips do you all have for me when shooting to keep things consistent and going off without a problem. I have had hell with muzzleloaders in the past and have shied away from them for that reason but want to do this right.

Would like to be able to shoot out to 300 yards with confidence. Thanks for any advice you might have.
 

MountainSqwabler

Active Member
Messages
240
Pack that powder and keep it dry. Never muzzy hunted, but I've shot my father's muzzys a good amount and had a few later fires and even just not firing at all.

So again, pack that powder tight and keeper dry. They sell barrel covers but honestly a piece of electrical tape works perfectly for while you're out hunting.
 

hunt30

Active Member
Messages
327
Sell the optima, buy a paramount, shoot their recommended load, and to kill a big buck. This is somewhat tongue in cheek, but I always struggled with muzzleloaders as well until I finally just bought a paramount.
I used a 40 cal paramount with the 225 powerbelts elr on a hunt last year and was very surprised at how easy it was shoot accurately at 300+ yards
 

tailchasers

Long Time Member
Messages
4,473
Not really sure about 777, but you certainly don’t want to pack BH209 tight if long range accuracy is your goal. Snug the bullet down until you feel it engage the powder and that’s good.

My optima showed me that I have to pack the heII outta the powder or pay the consequences. Didn't matter what bullet either. I've given the same advice to other shooter too with similar results. Goes to show the need to try alternatives.
 

elkassassin

Long Time Member
Messages
29,222
And Right There Explains Why I Was Getting My Tail Chewed about SmokePole Scopes being Banned!:D

I'll See If I Can Get a SPECIAL RUSH Put On The BAN JakeH!:D:D:D

(((RAZZIN Ya Of Course!:D:D:D)))
 

JakeH

Long Time Member
Messages
3,233
And Right There Explains Why I Was Getting My Tail Chewed about SmokePole Scopes being Banned!:D

I'll See If I Can Get a SPECIAL RUSH Put On The BAN JakeH!:D:D:D

(((RAZZIN Ya Of Course!:D:D:D)))
Lol do your best bess. I can shoot open sights just fine.

Now help me out and give me some pointers for load development with this thing.
 

Horniac

Very Active Member
Messages
1,125
I’m shooting a T/C Omega. 90 grains by volume of BH209 and the 290 Barnes TMZ or TEZ is the most accurate load out of my gun. Never had much luck with the Powerbelts myself…

Horniac
 

diablo

Active Member
Messages
732
You didn’t say but I’m assuming you have a .50 cal and are shooting 777 2Fg powder. FFFg is finer than FFg 777 so it’s a little hotter. Either are fine but you can’t use them interchangeably and expect the same results. Yeah, I’d upgrade the scope for sure.

Consistency is the real key to accuracy. If you’re looking to shoot to 300 yards then you’ll want to shoot in the upper range of charge weights - probably 90-110 grains by volume for 2F 777. Be very consistent in your volumetric measuring and/or weigh your loads. (If you decide to weigh charges, measure a charge or several charges by volume and then weigh that charge or average the weights to determine the weight of the charge you want to use.). Throw away those Powerbelts and use some quality bullets like Hornady SSTs, TC Shockwaves or Barnes bullets in a sabot. Triple Seven is famous for fouling the barrel with a “crud ring” near where the bullet sits so lots of guys spit patch or swab the barrel with a patch with a little windex or Hoppes/alcohol mix or something to remove the crud ring between shots. Follow this with a dry patch or two. This is really important. It keeps the bore condition more consistent. When you load the bullet/sabot, use a jag that does not damage the tip of the bullet. Seat the bullet on the powder with the same force every time. I seat all bullets with approx 50 lbs of pressure. Start at 90 grains by volume and work up in 5 grain increments. Shoot three shots of each charge weight at 100 yards. You will find that your rifle likes a charge somewhere in that range with whatever bullet you choose. If you can shoot an 1-2 inch group at 100 yards that’s good enough. Go with that load.

I like my rifles zeroed at about 200 yards usually which will usually allow you to shoot to 225 or 250 with a dead-on hold. You’ll see a big increase in drop between 225 and 325. Shoot it to 300 or 350 to verify your drops. You can use either regular 209 primers or muzzy specific 209s. You may have a little less fouling with the muzzy specific primers

When hunting, cover the muzzle with a little electrical tape. If you follow these steps you’ll have no issues with hang fires or fail-to-fires.
 

JakeH

Long Time Member
Messages
3,233
You didn’t say but I’m assuming you have a .50 cal and are shooting 777 2Fg powder. FFFg is finer than FFg 777 so it’s a little hotter. Either are fine but you can’t use them interchangeably and expect the same results. Yeah, I’d upgrade the scope for sure.

Consistency is the real key to accuracy. If you’re looking to shoot to 300 yards then you’ll want to shoot in the upper range of charge weights - probably 90-110 grains by volume for 2F 777. Be very consistent in your volumetric measuring and/or weigh your loads. (If you decide to weigh charges, measure a charge or several charges by volume and then weigh that charge or average the weights to determine the weight of the charge you want to use.). Throw away those Powerbelts and use some quality bullets like Hornady SSTs, TC Shockwaves or Barnes bullets in a sabot. Triple Seven is famous for fouling the barrel with a “crud ring” near where the bullet sits so lots of guys spit patch or swab the barrel with a patch with a little windex or Hoppes/alcohol mix or something to remove the crud ring between shots. Follow this with a dry patch or two. This is really important. It keeps the bore condition more consistent. When you load the bullet/sabot, use a jag that does not damage the tip of the bullet. Seat the bullet on the powder with the same force every time. I seat all bullets with approx 50 lbs of pressure. Start at 90 grains by volume and work up in 5 grain increments. Shoot three shots of each charge weight at 100 yards. You will find that your rifle likes a charge somewhere in that range with whatever bullet you choose. If you can shoot an 1-2 inch group at 100 yards that’s good enough. Go with that load.

I like my rifles zeroed at about 200 yards usually which will usually allow you to shoot to 225 or 250 with a dead-on hold. You’ll see a big increase in drop between 225 and 325. Shoot it to 300 or 350 to verify your drops. You can use either regular 209 primers or muzzy specific 209s. You may have a little less fouling with the muzzy specific primers

When hunting, cover the muzzle with a little electrical tape. If you follow these steps you’ll have no issues with hang fires or fail-to-fires.
Thank you this was exactly the kind of post I was looking for.

Powder is ffg, I have 40 cci 209 primers that I have had for years, I couldn't even say how long I've had them for. But I also picked up a case of 1000 cheddite cx2000 209 primers this winter. Will mixing the primers be an issue or not so much? Should I keep shooting the cci until they are gone? Or switch over to the new ones?

I do have 30 TC Shockwave 200 grain bullets. It seemed like I was having issues with them a few years ago when I tried shooting them, but I think that was a different gun, I'm not sure I have tried them through this one. I got the powerbelts because they was in stock and they seem to always be in stock. I wanted something that is accessible. I shot some 245 grain bullets last fall and got them shooting decent, but didn't really have the time to fine tune a load. So I grabbed a few different weights this year, I got the 245gr coppers, the 270gr platinum, and the 330gr elr bullets to try out.

I've been in the dedicated hunter program for years so have always had the opportunity to hunt with a muzzleloader but it's never been my main focus so I've always kinda winged it. I'm actually going to take the time to get it shooting right this year.

I'm also not one to tinker around much, once I get something that works I'm going to stick with it.

Thank you for the advice.
 

elkassassin

Long Time Member
Messages
29,222
Hey JakeH!

I Have a CVA ACCURA II!

95 Grains of BH 209!

338 GR Platinum POWERBELTS!

BH 209 is Like a Ghost Town!

The Other Powders are Everywhere & Cheap!

If I Were You I'd Try & Find Some BH 209 but it Ain't Gonna Be Easy!

Now Put That 6,000.00 Damn Night-Force Scope on that Thing & You'll Have Something!:D

Well Until They Make You Take it Off that Is!:D
 

JakeH

Long Time Member
Messages
3,233
Hey JakeH!

I Have a CVA ACCURA II!

95 Grains of BH 209!

338 GR Platinum POWERBELTS!

BH 209 is Like a Ghost Town!

The Other Powders are Everywhere & Cheap!

If I Were You I'd Try & Find Some BH 209 but it Ain't Gonna Be Easy!

Now Put That 6,000.00 Damn Night-Force Scope on that Thing & You'll Have Something!:D

Well Until They Make You Take it Off that Is!:D
Thanks bess, I don't have a completely set up rifle that's cost Me $6,000 or probably even half that, I damn sure ain't spending it on a muzzleloader.
 

diablo

Active Member
Messages
732
Will mixing the primers be an issue or not so much? Should I keep shooting the cci until they are gone? Or switch over to the new ones?
Mixing primers will likely affect your results. I’d stick with one or the other. Cheddite 209s are shorter than other 209s so you may see lots of blowback through the flame channel which could result in stuck primers, fouling and inaccuracy.

4B88C860-EC93-4447-B968-DB6266EB33C5.jpeg


I do have 30 TC Shockwave 200 grain bullets. It seemed like I was having issues with them a few years ago when I tried shooting them, but I think that was a different gun, I'm not sure I have tried them through this one.

Try those 200 grain Shockwaves - they may shoot well. They may not. I use 250-300 grain Shockwaves. Can’t go wrong with 300 grain (or 250 grain) bonded Shockwaves. I’ve killed dozens of animals with the 300s. But I believe the bonded are now discontinued - so getting tougher to find.

Sportsman’s almost always seems to have 250 gr Shockwaves on the shelf. Good luck!
 
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shootem

Active Member
Messages
599
Mixing primers will likely affect your results. I’d stick with one or the other. Cheddite 209s are shorter than other 209s so you may see lots of blowback through the flame channel which could result in stuck primers, fouling and inaccuracy.

View attachment 77518



Try those 200 grain Shockwaves - they may shoot well. They may not. I use 250-300 grain Shockwaves. Can’t go wrong with 300 grain (or 250 grain) bonded Shockwaves. I’ve killed dozens of animals with the 300s. But I believe the bonded are now discontinued - so getting tougher to find.

Sportsman’s almost always seems to have 250 gr Shockwaves on the shelf. Good luck!
I’m not a big fan of the shockwaves. Shot a deer with one about 15 years ago, got no expansion at all, almost able to reload the bullet and use again. The shot was about 125 yards, found the bullet in the hide on the opposite side. Ever since then I switched to the Barnes TEZ and TMZ and have killed tons of critters with very good accuracy out to 300 yards.
 

diablo

Active Member
Messages
732
I’m not a big fan of the shockwaves. Shot a deer with one about 15 years ago, got no expansion at all, almost able to reload the bullet and use again. The shot was about 125 yards, found the bullet in the hide on the opposite side. Ever since then I switched to the Barnes TEZ and TMZ and have killed tons of critters with very good accuracy out to 300 yards.
Barnes are great bullets, although they’ve never been as accurate for me in any of my 15 or so muzzleloaders. It’s easy to form a negative opinion of anything based on one bad experience. I lost count at about a hundred animals I’ve killed with 250 and 300 grain Shockwaves and never had a bullet failure. I have complete confidence in them.
 

TheOneRidgeRunner

Active Member
Messages
188
Keep it dry!! From oil to cleaning solvent. Id bet 90% of misfire is due to some type of liquid fouling in plug or on powder.
Before you load for first shot after cleaning always fire a primer to clear out any debris.
My Accura loves the 250 grn hornady SST pushed by 90 grains (volume) of 777.
Measure a load and weigh it, use a scale to keep consistency, it pays dividends. While sighting it in clean every 3 shots with wet patches and then dry completely.
 

pushin_30

Active Member
Messages
953
I highly recommend Barnes bullets. They shoot amazing and preform great on game.
I’ve got a ton of them if you would like to try them out!
As for powder I don’t have experience with the 777 loose powder but I have great luck with 777 pellets in my 50 cal.
My .45 ca I shoot BH209 and it is night and day difference between 777. I also have a ton of that.

As for a scope I recommend a turret style
Vortex makes one with 1/2 MOA adjustment which is great for muzzys

Nikon makes a great muzzleloader scope that’s 3-9x that has the internal bdc reticle. I personally have not used one but have had friends that do and have good luck with them.

Let me know
And congrats on the tag
 
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JakeH

Long Time Member
Messages
3,233
I just picked up a new scope tonight, went with a Burris Fullfield IV 4-16x50. I liked the reticle in it, and it is definitely a step up from what I had.

I also picked up some Hornady Bore Driver FTX bullets to test out.

Also had a buddy suggested the Federal B.O.R Lock mz bullets. I haven't found those in store, but looks like I can order them.
 

Bigwiffy

Active Member
Messages
878
I just picked up a new scope tonight, went with a Burris Fullfield IV 4-16x50. I liked the reticle in it, and it is definitely a step up from what I had.

I also picked up some Hornady Bore Driver FTX bullets to test out.

Also had a buddy suggested the Federal B.O.R Lock mz bullets. I haven't found those in store, but looks like I can order them.
Leave your muzzy and skirt at home Jake, pick up your bow like a real man.
 

BIGJOHNT

Long Time Member
Messages
5,069
A tip would be set up two guns. Why only one ? You never know what might happen ! If someone in your group has a late cow tag in the same area. They can pass you their muzzle loader for a quick second shot !
 

JakeH

Long Time Member
Messages
3,233
Leave your muzzy and skirt at home Jake, pick up your bow like a real man.
Lol, well since you are not allowed to use a bow during a muzzleloader hunt that is not an option.

You trying to get me a poaching violation wiffy?
 

JakeH

Long Time Member
Messages
3,233
A tip would be set up two guns. Why only one ? You never know what might happen ! If someone in your group has a late cow tag in the same area. They can pass you their muzzle loader for a quick second shot !
I do have a buddy with gun he said I could use so that might be an option.
 

HntHrdr

Active Member
Messages
293
I’m in a similar boat as you Jake, looking to cook up a load using 777 2F, had to switch since Blackhorn is too hard to find to play that game anymore. I have an accura instead of an optima, but cva as well, I’m shooting 295 tipped powerbelts I’ll let you know if I find a particular powder volume that it likes
 

257Tony

Long Time Member
Messages
3,970
I'm in the same boat, drew a late season LE muzzy tag, and haven't shot mine since 2004. I do have plenty of BH209, hopefully the old Omega likes it, and still goes boom when you pull the trigger.

Good luck with your load dev, and with your hunt!
 

Servehim

Very Active Member
Messages
1,627
I shoot the CVA accura , love it. I'm very pleased with results using 100 gr of 777 and the Thor 300gr bullets. Not a 300 yd gun but thankfully I'm a bow hunter at heart and I can get closer...lol
 

JakeH

Long Time Member
Messages
3,233
Did some shooting today, I got to say that crud ring is a b!tch, I never knew what to call it until diablo called it out above, but that is definitely my biggest issue with shooting muzzloaders lol.

Those of you that know. Is the newer accura's better in that regard?

The first bullet will slide down and seat without issue, the second bullet hits a wall about an inch from seat depth, and I have to ram the rod down to get the bullet to seat. One time I tried a 3rd bullet without cleaning and it hung up about 2 inches from seat depth. It can't be good on the bullet to ram it down with the rod like that. I did get my best group out of those bullets though lol, bout a 3" group at 50 yards shooting the Hornady 290 gr Bore Drivers.

Seriously thinking about purchasing a new gun, but I really don't want to drop $1200 on a paramount, plus the fact blackhorn is impossible to find I really don't think that is an option right now anyway.
 

Bluehair

Long Time Member
Messages
5,759
Find some 209 Jake!

Bye-Bye Crud Ring!
There’s your answer to the crud ring.

As a super lazy guy, I always feel guilty when I read these ml threads. I throw some bh209 down the pipe, stomp it down real good, and shoot. I clean my gun sometimes, but not every year.:censored:

I’ve used win, cci, and cheddite primers. Currently using some 10 year old cheddites. I like the little finger polish dab on the flash hole, because my feeble mind thinks things might be a little better sealed against moisture.

(knocking on head) I’ve never had a misfire or hang fire with a 209 primer. But then again, there isn’t a lot of risk of contamination from cleaning with my method :rolleyes:

I drew my backyard ml deer tag again this year, so soon I’ll go out to the truck to find the 209 that’s been rolling in there since last year, and unload the gun. I’ll report back whether my no miss/hang streak remains intact. I try to at least use a fresh load every year. :)

Good luck and good times(y)

Edit: I forgot to mention that I ream my flash hole aggressively with a welding tip cleaner. On my muzzleloader :ROFLMAO:
 
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diablo

Active Member
Messages
732
Buying a new rifle won’t eliminate issues with the 777 crud ring. It comes with the territory when shooting 777. That’s what the patching between shots is for. Are you patching between shots? That’s all it should take. If you need to, run a brass brush down to help break it up before patching. As I mentioned above, 777 is very water soluble and so a spit patch, windex patch or some kind of solvent will usually easily clean it out. Dampen a patch and run it down, scrub up and down in short strokes as you reach the crud ring, turn it over and run the other side of the patch down, then run a dry patch or two. Easy.

What you don’t want to do is let it continue to build up shot after shot. It just gets worse. And if you let it sit for days or months it can be a real b$$ch to remove - easy to freeze the breech plug as well if you let it sit.

The primer you’re using will affect the crud ring. A muzzleloader-specific primer like a Winchester Triple Seven primer will usually produce less crud ring. If you can get a hold of some that would help too. But you’ll still need to patch between shots.

If your best group is 3” at 50 😳 (6” at 100) you’ve got a ways to go!
 

JakeH

Long Time Member
Messages
3,233
Buying a new rifle won’t eliminate issues with the 777 crud ring. It comes with the territory when shooting 777. That’s what the patching between shots is for. Are you patching between shots? That’s all it should take. If you need to, run a brass brush down to help break it up before patching. As I mentioned above, 777 is very water soluble and so a spit patch, windex patch or some kind of solvent will usually easily clean it out. Dampen a patch and run it down, scrub up and down in short strokes as you reach the crud ring, turn it over and run the other side of the patch down, then run a dry patch or two. Easy.

What you don’t want to do is let it continue to build up shot after shot. It just gets worse. And if you let it sit for days or months it can be a real b$$ch to remove - easy to freeze the breech plug as well if you let it sit.

The primer you’re using will affect the crud ring. A muzzleloader-specific primer like a Winchester Triple Seven primer will usually produce less crud ring. If you can get a hold of some that would help too. But you’ll still need to patch between shots.

If your best group is 3” at 50 😳 (6” at 100) you’ve got a ways to go!
I was cleaning the gun after 2 shots, except for the one time I tried 3.

That's pulling the breech, running a brush, then spraying some cleaner, swabing it with a swab, then a couple dry patches.

My optima is one of the older ones that doesn't have the easy to remove breach plug.

Yeah 3" isn't great, I'm pretty sure I can improve on it that was just initial testing. I've been reading most guys get the best consistency with 90 grains of t7, I was using 100 grains. Got a couple more bullets to try out as well.
 

joevegas

Active Member
Messages
372
Jake-if ya can find some it will make all the difference. How much Blackhorn do ya think ya need to get your gun ready and for the hunt?
 

diablo

Active Member
Messages
732
I was cleaning the gun after 2 shots, except for the one time I tried 3.

That's pulling the breech, running a brush, then spraying some cleaner, swabing it with a swab, then a couple dry patches.

My optima is one of the older ones that doesn't have the easy to remove breach plug.

Yeah 3" isn't great, I'm pretty sure I can improve on it that was just initial testing. I've been reading most guys get the best consistency with 90 grains of t7, I was using 100 grains. Got a couple more bullets to try out as well.
You’re overthinking it. Swab exactly as I described after every shot (one damp patch and one or two dry). That’s the secret with 777. Should be no need to pull the breech plug until you get home for the day. And keep an eye on the flame channel on the breech plug. That may require reaming it out with a drill bit to keep fouling from building up.
 

joevegas

Active Member
Messages
372
You’re overthinking it. Swab exactly as I described after every shot (one damp patch and one or two dry). That’s the secret with 777. Should be no need to pull the breech plug until you get home for the day. And keep an eye on the flame channel on the breech plug. That may require reaming it out with a drill bit to keep fouling from building up.
We need to find him Blackhorn, so he doesn't have to deal with this crap that we had 2. I can still go back to the old Hawken days when we thought we had it made!!
 

diablo

Active Member
Messages
732
We need to find him Blackhorn, so he doesn't have to deal with this crap that we had 2. I can still go back to the old Hawken days when we thought we had it made!!
No doubt. Blackhorn is the only way to go. Plenty on the shelves if you know where to look - probably no where close to Jake though. Some on GB right now. 😳🤣

1D524075-C6D5-4C4B-B7B0-008DA8F37D88.jpeg
 

TheOneRidgeRunner

Active Member
Messages
188
Did some shooting today, I got to say that crud ring is a b!tch, I never knew what to call it until diablo called it out above, but that is definitely my biggest issue with shooting muzzloaders lol.

Those of you that know. Is the newer accura's better in that regard?

The first bullet will slide down and seat without issue, the second bullet hits a wall about an inch from seat depth, and I have to ram the rod down to get the bullet to seat. One time I tried a 3rd bullet without cleaning and it hung up about 2 inches from seat depth. It can't be good on the bullet to ram it down with the rod like that. I did get my best group out of those bullets though lol, bout a 3" group at 50 yards shooting the Hornady 290 gr Bore Drivers.

Seriously thinking about purchasing a new gun, but I really don't want to drop $1200 on a paramount, plus the fact blackhorn is impossible to find I really don't think that is an option right now anyway.

Try different primers. Alot of the crud ring is from powder not burning correctly. Make sure to clean the breech plug when giving it a through cleaning at home. Carb cleaner and a pipe cleaner work wonders
 

HIcountryman

Very Active Member
Messages
1,042
sucks that you cant find Blackhorn. it really is great for lack of fouling up your barrel. i shoot it out of an Accura V2 with federal bor-loc 350 gr lead with cci primers. no problems of any kind, very accurate at range and great performance. though i have not had the opportunity to shoot it very far at game. 45 yards... Good luck
 

Horniac

Very Active Member
Messages
1,125
Here are a couple of groups from my Nikon Omega scoped 50 cal T/C Omega. Both using 90 grains by volume of BH209 @ 100 yards.

The first 3 shot group is with Barnes 290 gr TMZ and the yellow Harvester sabots in-lieu of the Barnes factory yellow sabots.

The second 4 shot group using the Barnes 290 gr TEZ with the blue Barnes supplied sabots without any scope adjustments.

The groups are pretty good for me so I didn’t shoot anymore at 100 yards due to scarcity of projectiles, powder, and primers.

No spit patches used between shots and I put another 10 or so rounds down range on steel from 150 to 250 to check the Omega holdovers…

Horniac

5BA302D3-69E7-4C82-98E3-215CF6A4F9B5.jpeg
5BA302D3-69E7-4C82-98E3-215CF6A4F9B5.jpeg
CD2E1385-BF4D-4791-91C7-77DFB6DD4056.jpeg
 

JimNv

Active Member
Messages
553
I just looked on the blackhorn.com site and it looked like they had it for 45.00 per 0.7lbs.

Agree with the 209, and the Barnes 290 grains TEZ combo. I've taken 5 cow elk with my muzzleloader. 4 went down with one shot with the above combo. I used Powerbelts for the last one and put two good hits on an elk right in behind the shoulder and still had to finish the job with another through the neck.
 

ridgetops

Very Active Member
Messages
2,197
My best advice. Don't be fooled by all the long range muzzy talk. It doesn't matter how powerful or expensive your scope is or how well you can keep your groupings inside one MOA. Most muzzleloader guns and bullets don't have the energy or velocity to effectively or ethically quickly kill a large mule deer or elk.
 

diablo

Active Member
Messages
732
My best advice. Don't be fooled by all the long range muzzy talk. It doesn't matter how powerful or expensive your scope is or how well you can keep your groupings inside one MOA. Most muzzleloader guns and bullets don't have the energy or velocity to effectively or ethically quickly kill a large mule deer or elk.
There’s some truth to this. I agree that muzzleloaders are not centerfire rifles.

“Most muzzleloader guns and bullets don't have the energy or velocity to effectively or ethically quickly kill a large mule deer or elk.”

Do you mean at long range?
 

ridgetops

Very Active Member
Messages
2,197
There’s some truth to this. I agree that muzzleloaders are not centerfire rifles.

“Most muzzleloader guns and bullets don't have the energy or velocity to effectively or ethically quickly kill a large mule deer or elk.”

Do you mean at long range?
Oops, I completely left out the effective range. I was talking about 300+ yard shots. So if shooting over 300 yards is long range, then yes. I personally would never shoot over 250 yards because the energy and velocity is not there to be effective. I'm shooting 100 grains of 777 and a 250 grain shockwave.
 
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JakeH

Long Time Member
Messages
3,233
I just looked on the blackhorn.com site and it looked like they had it for 45.00 per 0.7lbs.

Agree with the 209, and the Barnes 290 grains TEZ combo. I've taken 5 cow elk with my muzzleloader. 4 went down with one shot with the above combo. I used Powerbelts for the last one and put two good hits on an elk right in behind the shoulder and still had to finish the job with another through the neck.
What happened with the powerbelt bullets to cause them to fail do you think?
 

diablo

Active Member
Messages
732
What happened with the powerbelt bullets to cause them to fail do you think?
Powerbelts are very soft and are quite notorious for poor terminal performance. They turn in to pancakes and don’t penetrate well.
 

elkassassin

Long Time Member
Messages
29,222
Hey Ridge?

I've Got a SmokePole That Shoots a 600 Grain Bullet!

No,It's Not A Long Ranger!

Wished I Had Pics of The Damage This Gun Has Done To a Few Animals!

I've Moved Animals Back 10'-12' with just a Squeeze!

I Flipped One Buck Over Backwards with it!

It'll Black & Blue Your Shoulder With One Shot!
 

elkassassin

Long Time Member
Messages
29,222
I've Hit Numerous Sports Stores Asking About BH 209!

I've Heard Every Excuse & Then Some!

I'll Bet Once They Get It JACKED To 500.00 a KEG it mysteriously Shows Back Up!
 

Bluehair

Long Time Member
Messages
5,759
Well, I’m taking a stand right here. Kegs are for beer. And so are glasses and cans BIGGER than 10oz.
 

JakeH

Long Time Member
Messages
3,233
Hey Jake you having any luck getting your smokepole dialed in yet?

Horniac
Haven't made it out to shoot again yet.

But I have found some blackhorn 209 powder as well. Also am seriously looking at getting a new .45 cal paramount. Just need to bite the bullet and go get it lol
 

elkassassin

Long Time Member
Messages
29,222
Well Jake!

Go Get The New Gun!

You Don't Archery Hunt With JUNK Equipment!

But Remember:

Don't Loc-Tite Anything Down!:D

Where'd You Find The BLACK GOLD?

Haven't made it out to shoot again yet.

But I have found some blackhorn 209 powder as well. Also am seriously looking at getting a new .45 cal paramount. Just need to bite the bullet and go get it lol
 

diablo

Active Member
Messages
732
Haven't made it out to shoot again yet.

But I have found some blackhorn 209 powder as well. Also am seriously looking at getting a new .45 cal paramount. Just need to bite the bullet and go get it lol
I would think long and hard before spending that kind of money on a Paramount. Lots of guys having major issues with them. Mostly because of poor quality inconsistent bores. The other thing to consider is that they are designed to shoot Powerbelts - which as has been said above is a really sub-par performer on game.
 

Joe2Kool

Very Active Member
Messages
1,940
Wow! Lots of responses, and I haven't read all of them, but try different bullet weights. I tried 260, 200, 180 gr unsuccessfully. When I tried the 300's, it was like flipping a light switch. It became a tack driver.
 

Cahunter805

Long Time Member
Messages
3,178
Haven't made it out to shoot again yet.

But I have found some blackhorn 209 powder as well. Also am seriously looking at getting a new .45 cal paramount. Just need to bite the bullet and go get it lol
I’d pickup a Rem700 ultimate instead of the paramount. Better availability of parts for the 700 also.
The BH209 might also surprise you in your current rifle. I would recommend trying some non full bore bullets also. Something with a sabot.
 

HntHrdr

Active Member
Messages
293
Never taken an elk with a muzzy, but the Powerbelts worked great on the antelope I have shot with it, but seems like a mixed bag some guys hate them other guys can stand them. I was shooting touching groups at 100 yards with powerbelts out of my older optima
 

diablo

Active Member
Messages
732
Blackhorn is now in stock at Midsouth (8oz “keg”?)

 

257Tony

Long Time Member
Messages
3,970
Blackhorn is now in stock at Midsouth (8oz “keg”?)

Shrinkflation! At least it's available I guess.
 

joevegas

Active Member
Messages
372
Blackhorn is now in stock at Midsouth (8oz “keg”?)

Thanks Diablo. Is this legit for sure? You ordered from them before?
 

JakeH

Long Time Member
Messages
3,233
Giving another update.

Went out with a buddy, loaded up a bunch of t7 powder 90gr by weight. (Found out its a big difference in the amount of powder, as 90 grains by weight was actually only about 80 grains by volume, I. Previous testing I was doing 100 grains by volume so had some really hot loads)

Anyway shooting 350 grain federal bor lock bullets. At 50 yards, first shot hit high about 4 inches (clean bore) next 3 hits were dead center 3 shot group all touching things are looking good. Did not swab in between shots, and was able to get all the bullets to load and seat well without to much trouble, but was getting harder by the 4th shot.

Decided to clean the barrel and site in for 100 yards, start shooting, first shot was about 8 inches low, move the site to adjust, shoot again now its 5" high and right. Shoot again without moving now it's 6" high and left..... starting to think wtf... shoot again, now it's down by the bullseye..... shoot a 4th shot and it's high off the paper in the box about 16" shoot one more time and now it's 10" high. Bullets are going all over the place. Only moved the site twice during all of this. Feel pretty confident the seating depth was good on all shots, we did run out of pre measured powder and had to start using the same amount by volume that we tested at my buddies house, I am fairly confident that wasn't the issue.

Cleaned the barrel Really good. And started over, shot a few more times and never could get a consistent grouping. Called it a day after that.

Not sure what the deal is especially as it was shooting great at 50 yards, and was even getting consistent grouping the other day too with different bullets and more powder, but they just wasn't as tight of groups. Not sure what the deal is.

Starting to think maybe the scope is messed up as it didn't start jacking around until I moved the cross hair on the scope, as it was pretty accurate with just the bore site the store did on it when they mounted it up, but it's a brand new Burris Fullfield 4-16x50.

Anyone got any suggestions??? 😆

Either way it was enough for me to bite the bullet and buy a new .40 cal paramount as a father's day gift. Lol
That and my buddy just got his all set up and is shooting a 3 shot group at 100 yards he could cover with a dime.

Still gonna try and get this gun figured out but man it's testing my patience lol
 

JakeH

Long Time Member
Messages
3,233
I would think long and hard before spending that kind of money on a Paramount. Lots of guys having major issues with them. Mostly because of poor quality inconsistent bores. The other thing to consider is that they are designed to shoot Powerbelts - which as has been said above is a really sub-par performer on game.
I haven't seen anything about inconsistent bores. I was seeing people having issues with the muzzle breaks and the powerbelts, but sounds like that was an issue with a bad batch of bullets causing issues.

Either way I am probably going to go with the fury bullets and they will be sized to the bore of my gun.
 

Joe2Kool

Very Active Member
Messages
1,940
Couple of suggestions:

1) Bullet weight and barrel twist may not be a good match. Try a different weight bullet. My Knight shoots 250 gr bullets like you described. It drives tacks with the 300 gr at 50 and 100 yards.

2) Depending on the type of scope mounts you have, you may be able to align the iron sights at 50 yards and compare it to the scope. I have see thru scope mounts on my ML and turkey gun. I look thru both every so often on a leaf or rock or... and compare them.

Good luck!
 

diablo

Active Member
Messages
732
This is my buddies 3 shot group at 100 yards with 105gr blackhorn by weight. With 250 grain fury bullets.

View attachment 79269
That’s a fantastic shooter! However, each black powder rifle is different and you can’t assume that even if you did everything identically with another rifle that it would perform the same. I haven’t heard much bad about the .40 Paramount bore and you may get really lucky and get one that will shoot lights out like your buddy’s. I hope it does! For the money, though, there should be no question regarding quality control issues like bore consistency - but CVA is quite famous for that sort of thing. I’m keeping my fingers crossed for you!
 
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