UNSUCC. guys, thank you, Utahs deer herd!

hossblur

hossblur

Long Time Member
Messages
10,520
Just a letter of thanks to all you guys that ate an UNSUCCESSFUL letter this year. To you guys with 20 points that couldn't draw a deer tag. To you guys who now can sit home this fall. $FW saved Utahs deer herd from the brink of destruction by making it so you can sit home. MDF was able to "donate" over a million dollars by selling some of those LE tags you were hoping to draw. You guys that started putting in in your 30's who are now retired, YOU have made this all possible. You fellas that drew an elk tag when the first Clinton was president that are still UNSUCCESSFUL with the second one on the way, well, Doyles guys have hunted every year thanks to you!! You guys have made this UTOPIA possible. So again, on behalf of the "conservation" groups, the outfitters, and the fly in crowd, thanks for sacrificing your hunt for the betterment of the (theirs) the deer derd. Because lets face it, the only way to save hunting, is to make sure only the deep pockets with political connections get to keep hunting. The rest of the state sitting home is a GREAT thing for the future of the sport!!

Thanks again!

Signed,

Utahs deer herd.


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
Condolences. I hope hunters in other states, esp. mine, are watching UT as an example to avoid RE limited and auction tags. I sure like hunting every year.
 
So what would you do to make it more "fair" ? Do we just open it up like it was back in the 60's. Do we make every draw "random", so that some lucky folks draw 2-3 years in a row while some never draw--? You can always go buy an antlerless elk tag, spike elk tag, any bull unit bull tag etc. Guess you weren't around in the "bad ol' days" of elk hunting when you only dreamed of getting a tag-- then it was every 5 years, then every 3 years then every year for spike- and some LE units for larger bulls ( which happened because sportsmen demanded and wanted to have a better opportunity to hunt larger bulls). Sure its still the luck of the draw-- but still not as bad as it used to be. Certainly we can disagree with the way money is raised by some Conservation groups and then gives 90% of it back, however, for the most part, all of us benefit from the work that has been done and will be done using the money raised. Habitat projects, some winter land acquisition (not enough) transplants of big game, turkeys, chuckars, Rocky Mt. Goat, Big Horn sheep, increased predator control etc.
Yeah, I got an unsuccessful with 15 bonus points and it sucks, but I will eventually draw and have a great time with my family. General season deer hunting is getting better though, should be a good time with family on the mountain this fall--
 
U hope. My dad grew up on the manti. Herded sheep. Actually lived on it. We hunted it before it went le. He never drew a tag, then cancer got him. But Mdf gets their tags every year.
Guess you have to ask those 300(don't forget all the non expo tags given away) or so guys who didn't draw if it's worth it for THE DON to pull $260k for "lobbying",from selling tags. So u tell me. If u have a tag and didn't kill or sit home, what's the difference? My bet is the grocery stores, gas stations etc know. The sporting goods you don't buy (that fund wildlife) know. You will never expand your sport, with its political power and financial power, by shrinking your numbers. How does you sitting home, and denny hunting the pahvant help you on the nebo, or the manti? Those 300 or so tags, would help with point creep if nothing else.


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
Off subject a bit but, if you guys are supporting the public lands transfer to the state; use the state run big game bonanza as a guide to what will eventually become of public lands if Utah takes control. I believe the current legislative body has good intention, but unfortunately they won't be in office for ever.
And I'm sure there is a Don Peay just waiting to help sell your public lands to private interest for your best interests. Sarcastically said!
 
>Off subject a bit but, if
>you guys are supporting the
>public lands transfer to the
>state; use the state run
> big game bonanza as
>a guide to what will
>eventually become of public lands
>if Utah takes control. I
>believe the current legislative body
>has good intention, but unfortunately
>they won't be in office
>for ever.
>And I'm sure there is a
>Don Peay just waiting to
>help sell your public lands
>to private interest for your
>best interests. Sarcastically
>said!
Ya because the Feds manage things soooooooo much better! Closing millions of acres of land a year and doing it unconstitutionally at that.
FYI IMO
State lands are managed far better than blm and forest!
 
>Ya because the Feds manage things
>soooooooo much better! Closing millions
>of acres of land a
>year and doing it unconstitutionally
>at that.
>FYI IMO
>State lands are managed far better
>than blm and forest!

Do you have any examples of these millions of acres that are closed each year?????
 
>
>>Ya because the Feds manage things
>>soooooooo much better! Closing millions
>>of acres of land a
>>year and doing it unconstitutionally
>>at that.
>>FYI IMO
>>State lands are managed far better
>>than blm and forest!
>
>Do you have any examples of
>these millions of acres that
>are closed each year?????


Serious? Open your eyes man! You are that lazy you need me to do the leg work for you. Google it.
I also consider wilderness areas and monuments closures. When ever you are excluding certain groups of people from lands. That is a closure! Also when the state lands allows for habitat management when the blm and forest are stingy with it. The blm refuses to allow any sort of habitat improvements by ranchers while state lands are allowed and those lands are in far better shape than fed lands.

Also I'm not sure if you have ever heard of these animals called horses that are running UNMANAGED by your lovely federal Govt.
those horses pushing hunters and ranchers off lands. The Dwr has had to issue more elk tags for units to cut down to make room for those horses cause there isn't enough feed. I'm not sure if u can see what happens when federal govt controls stuff but it's never been good
 
Thanks Hoss for starting this thread, gotta keep this mess with SFW at the top to help educate the folks in Idaho and other states why we need to stay vigilant and fight SFW every step of the way.
 
if you are trying for the Henrys as a resident, you should have drawn a ALW tag this year- What did you put in for?-- OIL ?
 
When its private and posted "NO Trespass" it will certainly be a hard closure!
I don't support the Fed way of doing business but for now I can still access every piece of land I ever have.
The only thing that stops me from enjoying my favorite piece of public lands is the State of Utah's catering to special interests. SFW and a hand full of private land owners control state wildlife via a very flawed RAC, Big Game Board system. Supporting the land transfer means your willing to give up 5% of your public lands right up front. You should take a trip to Texas and see how well public lands have worked out for the common man.
 
runamuk, yes, i think it's too late for Utah and the common hunter but it could even get worse. Both Hoss and counch are spot on, very valid concerns but the bed is now wet and somebody has to sleep in it. I wished it weren't so but collectively, you guys allowed the Fox in the hen house.


Joey

Keep your slimy Paws Off My, Yours, Our,.. Public Land!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON May-19-16 AT 12:32PM (MST)[p]
>Serious? Open your eyes man! You
>are that lazy you need
>me to do the leg
>work for you. Google it.
>
>I also consider wilderness areas and
>monuments closures. When ever you
>are excluding certain groups of
>people from lands. That is
>a closure!

So you would rather there be no areas for walk in recreation restricting non motorized travel?


What about the frank church wilderness? Should I be able to just start riding my ATV through it? It's my Constitutional right! Right?

What about an ATV tour of Yellowstone I'd love to throw a constitutional roster tail/ power slide in old faithful's smug face! MERICA!
Justin
 
Yep. Now we get to see how the welfare culture behaves when the gubmint runs out of cheese.

Socialism didn't work for Venezuela and it ain't going to work for wildlife anymore. The thorn in your side is from the tree you planted. Now your descendants will get to suffer because of your shortsightedness.

By the way nobody likes it more than the government when your illogical anger is pointed at someone besides them.

Cheers
 
>>
>>>Ya because the Feds manage things
>>>soooooooo much better! Closing millions
>>>of acres of land a
>>>year and doing it unconstitutionally
>>>at that.
>>>FYI IMO
>>>State lands are managed far better
>>>than blm and forest!
>>
>>Do you have any examples of
>>these millions of acres that
>>are closed each year?????
>
>
>Serious? Open your eyes man! You
>are that lazy you need
>me to do the leg
>work for you. Google it.
>
>I also consider wilderness areas and
>monuments closures. When ever you
>are excluding certain groups of
>people from lands. That is
>a closure! Also when the
>state lands allows for habitat
>management when the blm and
>forest are stingy with it.
>The blm refuses to allow
>any sort of habitat improvements
>by ranchers while state lands
>are allowed and those lands
>are in far better shape
>than fed lands.
>
>Also I'm not sure if you
>have ever heard of these
>animals called horses that are
>running UNMANAGED by your lovely
>federal Govt.
>those horses pushing hunters and ranchers
>off lands. The Dwr has
>had to issue more elk
>tags for units to cut
>down to make room for
>those horses cause there isn't
>enough feed. I'm not sure
>if u can see what
>happens when federal govt controls
>stuff but it's never been
>good

What am I supposed to google, public lands closed according to theox??

Oh yea I forgot, you're the guy who wants every mountain peak wheel chair/ATV accessible for the lazy a$$es I mean old and crippled. Like you've been told before, life's a beotch then you die. None of us are going to be able to hunt the same places we did when we were younger. Well except maybe you. You sound like an ATV road hunter so you'll be able to hunt the same places when you're 90.

You blaming horses for the DWR increasing elk tags is truly laughable. Did you not hear about the southern RAC meeting where a 100 cattle ranchers showed up demanding ALL the elk be killed off. How about the SW Desert elk herd being eliminated by 50% because elk eat the same things as cows.

I can name habit projects on 10,000s of acres of federal land, so you're full of crap on that too.

The state of Utardia has locked you out of 2700 miles of rivers and streams, in case you didn't know. You could even google that.

Keep slinging the BS maybe it will stick to something some day.
 
>>>
>>>>Ya because the Feds manage things
>>>>soooooooo much better! Closing millions
>>>>of acres of land a
>>>>year and doing it unconstitutionally
>>>>at that.
>>>>FYI IMO
>>>>State lands are managed far better
>>>>than blm and forest!
>>>
>>>Do you have any examples of
>>>these millions of acres that
>>>are closed each year?????
>>
>>
>>Serious? Open your eyes man! You
>>are that lazy you need
>>me to do the leg
>>work for you. Google it.
>>
>>I also consider wilderness areas and
>>monuments closures. When ever you
>>are excluding certain groups of
>>people from lands. That is
>>a closure! Also when the
>>state lands allows for habitat
>>management when the blm and
>>forest are stingy with it.
>>The blm refuses to allow
>>any sort of habitat improvements
>>by ranchers while state lands
>>are allowed and those lands
>>are in far better shape
>>than fed lands.
>>
>>Also I'm not sure if you
>>have ever heard of these
>>animals called horses that are
>>running UNMANAGED by your lovely
>>federal Govt.
>>those horses pushing hunters and ranchers
>>off lands. The Dwr has
>>had to issue more elk
>>tags for units to cut
>>down to make room for
>>those horses cause there isn't
>>enough feed. I'm not sure
>>if u can see what
>>happens when federal govt controls
>>stuff but it's never been
>>good
>
>What am I supposed to google,
>public lands closed according to
>theox??
>
>Oh yea I forgot, you're the
>guy who wants every mountain
>peak wheel chair/ATV accessible for
>the lazy a$$es I mean
>old and crippled. Like you've
>been told before, life's a
>beotch then you die. None
>of us are going to
>be able to hunt the
>same places we did when
>we were younger. Well except
>maybe you. You sound like
>an ATV road hunter so
>you'll be able to hunt
>the same places when you're
>90.
>
>You blaming horses for the DWR
>increasing elk tags is truly
>laughable. Did you not hear
>about the southern RAC meeting
>where a 100 cattle ranchers
>showed up demanding ALL the
>elk be killed off. How
>about the SW Desert elk
>herd being eliminated by 50%
>because elk eat the same
>things as cows.
>
>I can name habit projects on
>10,000s of acres of federal
>land, so you're full of
>crap on that too.
>
>The state of Utardia has locked
>you out of 2700 miles
>of rivers and streams, in
>case you didn't know. You
>could even google that.
>
>Keep slinging the BS maybe it
>will stick to something some
>day.

Accuse me of wat you want you are just trying to insult me about something ur ignorant about. Just because ur a selfish person and don't want to share land with others and want it all to yourself. The feds have closed tons of access for many people. Regardless of how bad u wanna make yourself feel better about being selfish. I proved to u lands were closed and u just start insulting. Showing me you are In the defensive and support the agencies that ate allowing our lands to be closed. To be poorly managed to be over run with wolves and horses. Etc.
the stream access is a tough call. When you have streams crossing private lands and you want to fish the land someone else owns. I am on the fence about that one because on one hand you have landowners that don't want people on their property and on the other hand u have a public asset such as fish and streams that should be enjoyed by others. But where do you draw the line?
Funny how when your group is blocked from something you change your view.
I just spent almost 2 months working on the grand staircase nm and let me tell you what a waste of land. The majority of that place is not deserving to be blocked off from all the access. There are a couple cool areas but 99% of that is a joke to close off. But we all know the real reasons for the closure was the environmentalists to keep gas and oil exploration down.
It's pretty sad that people like you really are ok with the govt restricting you so heavily.

Oh and my understanding on the swd it was proposed to the Dwr and the cattle ranchers to cut numbers because of the horse over populations.

Oh and your ignorant comment about what to google was pretty lame. All you have to do is Google blm or nf land closures etc. you can see areas that don't allow hunting, motorized travels. Road closures. Etc. if you don't think that is a foot in the door to restrict more accesses well here is some advice....

Be careful what you wish for!
 
LAST EDITED ON May-19-16 AT 02:21PM (MST)[p]The plain truth is if you support the public land transfer movement, you are supporting the eventual sell off of land you treasure. When that happens it will be gone forever. Land your great grand parents used to hunt on and you will be robbing from your grand children. Say what you will about federal land practices but you will always have some sort of access as long as they manage it. With the state it will disappear over the years.

If the state took over federal lands, the first big fire season would bankrupt the state. It cannot afford to manage them. Then they will use that as justification to liquidate them.
 
Theox,
what you "consider" and what you "understand" doesn't make it true. You've proved nothing but your own ignorance.

YouTube the May 2015 Wildlife Board meeting where the decision to eliminate 50% of the SWD elk herd was made. Horses weren't even mentioned. We had just come off one of the driest winters ever. The elk on the SWD unit are being killed off because your beloved cattle ranchers want them killed off and it has nothing to do with horses and everything to do with elk eating the same things as cows.

Wild horses don't even occupy the same habit as elk in 90% of Utah, but cows sure do. Why are elk numbers being reduced in units without wild horses? I'll tell you why, because your beloved cattle ranchers want them to.

Again, you blaming the Feds and horses for the reduction of Utahs elk herd is laughable.
 
Theox, what is the public blocked from on the Grand Staircase. You do have to keep your vehicles on existing roads and trails now but you have access to it all . Not so with a lot of state owned land.
 
hossblur, Thanks for the recognition. With 20 devalued deer points, I just met your qualification this year. It's been a pleasure funding DP's corrupt money machine, with even a few dollars for wildlife as well. No matter I would have drawn my LE tag 8 years ago.

Isn't it amazing how SFW & UTDOW can shrug off scandal after scandal and a month or two later everything is dead quiet???

**************************************************
Greenhorns educate yourselves. Wherever SFW goes, scandals and corruption follow. Write your legislators:

http://kutv.com/news/local/allegations-of-corruption-surround-utah-hungtin-and-conservation-expo

https://www.cascwild.org/don-peay-the-man-who-would-be-king-baron/

http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs...ares-north-american-hunting-model-“socialism”

http://www.standard.net/Recreation/...16-Western-Hunting-and-Conservation-Expo.html

http://www.mtbullypulpit.org/2012/06/pox-on-fox.html

http://www.thewildlifenews.com/2013...on-essentially-buy-utah-division-of-wildlife/

http://westernvaluesproject.org/tax...hunting-energy-industry-over-hunters-anglers/

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/02/u...-but-hunters-cry-foul.html?smid=pl-share&_r=2

http://www.themudflats.net/archives/25891
 
I started this one to make a point. Then I talked to my little brother today, and yup, UNSUCCESSFUL of a rifle deer tag. So, theres another dad who now has to try to explain to his son how things are so much better for him by them not hunting. Another kid we turn off.
You outside Utah guys, fight like a basterd. Watch the cracks. $fw already spun the saving deer tale, and the wolf free Utah story, so your watching for that. Like cockroaches, under the color of darkness they search out openings. Watch government officials, see who is taking them hunting.
At 42, with 2 Elk points, I find myself facing the prospect of never drawing and elk again. I see a realistic 30yr wait for myself and others who just drew or are on probabtion. Quite frankly, I could give not a single SHIZZ if Doyles guys ever kill another "trophy class" elk if it means I could draw 2 in a lifetime.
Way too many of our well meaning friends drank the coolaid. They stepped up to try to make a change. How many of them would join again, if $fw was starting out today knowing what they know? How on gawds green earth do I tell my boys who were 4 and not born when I drew my FIRST LE tag that we honestly may never hunt LE elk together, but "us not doing that is REALLY good for hunting. Even my 5yr old can see that bird don't fly.

And, because I am bored, TRI, a Pahvant elk tag sold for 5 figures this year, what did $fw pay for it? NOTHING. That's the definition of welfare. Let them have their expo, I am a capitalist. But let them BUY those tags, AT LAST YEARS prices. They can then sell them for whatever they want. Its not capitalism, or free market for you to buy smokes with your EBT card, then sell them retail and talk about capitalism or free markets, that's all $fw does.

Last, sorry to the guys a generation older than me, who really are looking down the barrel of "never again". It flat out sucks!!


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
I am going to chime in here not because I have a stake in the future of Utah hunting but because I do have a stake in public land ownership--as do we all. If not for public lands, all I see is "No Tresspassing" signs and no opportunity to hunt. Federal lands came into the possession of every US citizen for the simple reason that they every citizen, of every state, helped to pay for them, in cash and blood. Texas may have declared its independence from Mexico, but it could not defend itself without the support and intervention of the other states. Every American helped to repay Texas' debt and the debt owed by Mexico that was impetus for annexation. Same with Nevada, Utah, California, etc. There weren't four hundred American settlers in California when the US military arrived to take possession. Nevada was so desperate for US funding and security that they ceded vast tracts of land to the US to expedite entry into the Union. Nobody twisted their arms--Nevadans received a huge amount of free land and resources, and the protection they required to keep them. The US, not Oregonians, strong-armed Britain into relinquishing the Oregon Territories, paid Russia for Alaska, etc. These lands were bought by my ancestors and yours, no matter where they live today. I'll be damned if I will give my lands up to anyone.

That said, if the problem is with management, then change it. That is the American way.
 
Guess what guys, I didn't draw this year either. Guess what else. I HAVE NEVER DRAWN A TAG. No matter how many points I have no matter what state the gubmint has never once granted me one of these undervalued welfare tags and I think it was the best thing for me. You know why? Because I didn't sit around waiting to see if the gubmint was going to decide whether I OR MY KIDS, are going to be hunters. I went muley hunting last year, antelope hunting, whitetail hunting, hog hunting, predator hunting, and bird hunting. AND MY KIDS WENT HUNTING TOO. I work for hard earn money and spend it to enrich my and others lives with experience. Will I ever make enough to buy a bighorn tag? Probably not, but I won't waste time crying like a little girl about it.

There is a reason Envy is a deadly sin Hossblur. Quit focusing on what the gubmint didn't hand your family and the rich people you hate and focus on that wonderful blessing that your son is whether he hunts or not. You can take him hunting if you put your mind to it.
 
It's a matter of priorities and how you chose to approach life in general I believe.
Just received our emails yesterday, 18 year old son drew his 6th general season tag in a row. Wife drew her 4th general season tag in a row. I also drew. I have literally not gone a single season in Utah without drawing a deer tag. Last year my son wanted to go more, so we bought over the counter deer tags in Idaho. Drew deer tags in New Mexico. Bought spike elk tags. This spring he shot his second turkey in as many years. I have a big bull permit for NM just staring at me on the dresser.
If it means enough to you then you find a way. You study draw trends you save money, you apply. You research regulations and make it happen. Whiners and doers, it's weird how that always seems to fit these posts.
 
Haven't been on here in a long time but I say open it all up! Don't need one single draw area! All it's doing is feeding this circus! Normal guy with 20 points finally draws and then has to deal with the guide and helper bonanza! Make it a hunt again! There has to be restrictions on ATV access, weapons, etc. Who voted for scopes on muzzleloaders! What a joke! Suppose to be a primitive weapon, not a rifle! Make it a hunt again and get rid of all the jokers. Sorry you can't have your 25 spotters, 1000 yard rifle, scoped muzzleloader, rangefinder bow, plane, etc. What's next? Heat seeking bullets? Lol The average hunter is losing out in Utah and other states too. You'll believe me when you finally draw a tag and witness the circus! Time for unlimited tags again! Everywhere! Good post.
 
Oh I forgot to add that you can't have your trail camera on every water hole while you sit home and look at the pictures!!!!! I could go on and on. Man I have a lot of anger built up. Lol
 
It is funny how anger negates reason. You "ain't" seen nothing yet! Wait until we see another million people in Utah. The anti's will be coming in droves to hike the National Monuments and enjoy our beautiful country. The bear, mt. lions, and wolves will be a common place in the mountains and you wouldn't be able to shoot any of them.

Right now you can hunt most any place except the limited entry units at least every other year. As one person said (Oh! that may have been me) that we aren't in the sixties and we don't have number of deer we use to, so get use to it and quit complaining.

ps. As far as I'm concerned we could have more deer by good management. Base herd commitments are way to low on most units. That's my opinion anyway - nothing scientific.
 
As usual these get off in the weeds somewhere.

1. It ain't the 60's. We don't have as many deer. We also have 1/3 the hunters. Most of N. Utah is under lock and key, leased out to CWMU which get guaranteed tags, which are bought by the same guys(in the majority of cases), which allow them to bypass the waiting periods, or choosing which LE species.

2. Stop and read TRITIPS post. Seriously. Read it, ponder it. His line of thinking is decades ahead of mine, and most of us. NO BS. TRI line of thinking is the ultimate end that the $fw et al, want to bring about. They want the mindset changed from the traditional western ideal of "hey, I can start hunting something in September, and chase into Jan." or " today I feel like hitting the mtn.". TRI can't do that. He can't just jump in the truck, or wheeler and hit the mtn. and lose himself. TRI has to call someone. He has to scratch a check. His idea of hunting is pretty similar to a out of town golf weekend. He comes in here first because he is a troll, but second because he can't fathom the idea of independence and freedom. To TRI, hunting is a business transaction that he can research on Yelp, and plan via Expedia. High fence or not, I doubt TRI has ever had the ability to just go hunt. This is what $fw envisions. Read their writings. Listen to what their own members say. Look at the long game they play. In the end, when all the "saving mule deer" crap is pushed to the side, the end game, in fact the goal, is Texas. Its an INDUSTRY, with itself as kingmaker. They use words like "trophy", and "conservation". But logic tells you no matter how great the deer numbers, less than 5% would be "trophy". "Conservation" is the buzz word that they use, same as "green energy" is to the hippies. READ WHAT TRI WRITES. Take it in. But actually think about how his mindset got to where it is, its pretty simple, ENVIRONMENT. His way of thinking about hunting comes about because of where he lives and how things are done there. Then go talk to the old guys. Go find an 80 yr old and discuss trophies. Go talk about $20k elk. Listen to what he says about it. Then talk to a 20 something. Notice how quickly the mindset about hunting has changed, and how excepting they are of the "industry". Look at how easily they buy into Utah running land. They don't think about all the backroom deals. All the ties guys like THE DON have. To them, its not a heritage, its not a birthright, its business.

So yeah. I stand by it. You UNSUCC. guys, thanks for saving the deer herd. Now if you would just take up golf or gardening, $fw and the like could spend less effort coming up with ways to weed guys like you out to "improve opportunity"




"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
By the sounds of it just give them all the tags they want and they'll be happy... Its kind of along the same lines as the "feel the bern" way of thinking...
 
LAST EDITED ON May-20-16 AT 08:10AM (MST)[p]Hoss has made a post that actually makes sense and is said almost perfectly. Most of the time he is too over the top for my tastes. His point number 2 is the gospel truth for people who enjoy the freedoms of hunting public lands and makes it simple to see the divide.

And once again Muley shows his ignorance while portraying himself as a better-than-others, hunting tag acquisition-er. "If it means enough to you then you find a way. You study draw trends you save money, you apply. You research regulations and make it happen. Whiners and doers, it's weird how that always seems to fit these posts." To hell with anyone not willing to discover the Utah loop-hole or to anyone who doesn't live and breathe hunting every month of the year. Don't need no pansies here. We need men who are willing to research and apply and stuff.

The aunts, uncles, and cousins who don't care enough to apply 8 months ahead of the actual hunt are not worth our time and don't deserve to hunt. We only need the men who are willing to research and apply for the aunts, uncles, and cousins so when those aunts, uncles, and cousins draw those men can go on a hunt and accompany a hunter.

Everyone should be able to see the mindset and goal of some is to cut tags which will reward only the most dedicated segment of the hunters. But hey, it is all for the mule deer, elk, and the kids. Whoops, not the kids. We make 1,000s of them sit home so there can be an extra hundred bucks or bulls on the mountain.

A tag acquisition-er that has never had his son, daughter, niece or nephew sit home because they didn't draw a tag can't understand. Wait for it, "Those kids who don't draw can still tag along with someone who has a tag".
 
LAST EDITED ON May-20-16 AT 08:17AM (MST)[p]Unfortunately berryblaster is spot on. When the demand outweighs the supply, someone has to be told to hold off a year.
I have no idea where or what you applied for. Or how many points you have.

But what can work is adjusting. we as hunters can adjust to allow us more opportunity or better our odds. You can still hunt every year. You just gotta do your homework and make alittle sacrifice.

Learn new units that have easier odds, list them as choices on your application. I have been hunting an easier unit to draw for the past 4 years and I still find some big deer in there.
Study the latest changes Utah makes. For example, I anticipated many hunters jumping to the muzzleloader hunt. So switched back to a rifle application.

Pay great attention to draw odds, tag numbers, etc.
Apply in other states.
Lastly, there is still plenty of chances to get out and hunt. Over the counter bull and spike tags in July, the antlerless application begins soon.
I understand your frustration Hoss. The average Hunter is under fire. If you want to hunt, you have to make adjustments.

I've had a deer tag every year since I began hunting. The draw is a system and you have to find a way to play the game. It might involve alittle sacrifice if you want to hunt every year.
I'd go crazy if I couldn't chase after mule deer each year. Maybe that's why I am constantly on top of all changes and constantly looking at the data.
Good luck



"Wildlife and its habitat cannot speak. So
we must and we will."
Theadore Roosevelt
 
I love it. Hossblurs defense is two hundred words that translate to SPOILED BRATS SHOULDN'T HAVE TO GROW UP AND CHANGE WHEN THE CONSEQUENCES OF THEIR FAILED BEHAVIOR IS DETRIMENTAL TO EVERYONE'S HERDS.

"I hate rich people and capitalism because I might not be able to go to the woods anytime I want to without asking too." That's his tantrum now? Really?

In reality nobody told you that you can't go stomp around the woods whenever you want. Which I still get to do here. I love how most of your defense is to attack me, a person you have no clue how much time I spend in the woods, by myself or with friends and kids. You just can't go kill whatever deer you want whenever you want. PERIOD. And for whatever reason you can't get your head around that. Lord help us all if Hossblur doesn't have to show restraint and actually plan on having a deer herd survive past his own will and compulsion.


Hossblur do you realize you are hating a group of people that effect less than %1 of the big game tag distribution within your state????? But somehow its all THEIR fault and we should all hate them childishly and without logic. RIGHT?
 
2-point...

This is the reality of the situation in Utah.
Let me give you an example.

I stay on top of all changes, constantly going over data, tag numbers, draw odds, list several different weapons, units on me and by boys applications. I think about hunting every stinking day. We draw every year.
Vs
My brother and his boy...
They don't stay up to date on changes. They don't list multiple choices on their applications. They don't look at draw odds. Always the same weapon.
Usually one of the two doesn't draw each year. This year, it was his 15 year old boy who didn't draw and his boy is about as obsessed with hunting as I am. Sad story.

But that's the difference and what Muley was referring to. He wasn't stating the one side is more deserving because they live and breathe hunting everyday.

He is stating that for those who it is more important to hunt every year, spend more time doing their homework to help their chances of drawing. Adjusting is necessary now days to hunt every year.







"Wildlife and its habitat cannot speak. So
we must and we will."
Theadore Roosevelt
 
Berry has a pretty good question. Simple answer to me is less LE. With the amount of land lost on the Front. The amount lost up in Ogden and park city canyons, and with legitimate 20 year waits for deer, the system is broke. Those 300 tags don't help.

TRI as usual your wrong. But the sun came up this morning so no suprise.

But yeah, you aren't exposing kids to the sport by setting home. A chunk of the CWMU either don't allow you to bring people, or only allow 1. So which kid do u leave home. The mindset, in large part pushed by the "industry" isn't hunting, it's killing. And Berry is right, the supply of trophy animals will never match demand. Even if the entire state was LE it still cant. Btw, over 90k guys put in for the draw, 8 months before hunts. Kinda means they cared enough. In the end realism has to hit. This ain't the serengetti of the west. I ain't Fred Bear, or Jim Shockey. I doubt any of u started hunting by killing a 30 inch buck. In fact most of us did because we could be part of a group who loved to spend the fall together. Seems to me the system is broke, but it's not by accident.



"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
This is how this Tri fellow hunts in Texas with never drawing a tag.



"Massa sir, I'd like to shoot me one of them there dog dink texas whitetails from underneath that there cornflinger. Can I hunt your property? I brought my checkbook."

"Sir Massa Sir, I'd like to get me one of them there penis bones from a coon. Can I hunt coons on your property and maybe a opossum or two? I brought my checkbook."

"Massa landowner sir, me and my daughter would like to hunt turkey on your property, I brought my checkbook, I'll even write out two checks ifin you like."

"Massa, I'd like to wallow around with some hogs on your property, ifin it's ok with you, I brought my checkbook."
 
I get it Billy. You make my point that if you don't "think about hunting every stinking day" you are less likely to be able to hunt. Tag acquisition is more of a hunt than some hunts. We cut tags to carry more bucks or bulls and then thousands of people get to sit at home. If you follow Muley73 you find he was all for not increasing tags this year. Which is how it all intertwines with the original post on this thread. Lots of people getting unsuccessful notices while most units are above the goals outlined for the F&G to follow.

Sad part of your story is that you think your brother and nephew are somehow wrong or misinformed or lazy or whatever because they want to hunt the same area with the weapon they want to use. What if the unit they want to hunt is above the stated goals for the unit? Do you care that your nephew sits home while there was an opportunity for more tags if the unit is over its goals?

Better say it before all the whiners come out and claim "you just want to shoot them all". If you think that then you don't understand the issue.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-20-16 AT 10:33AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON May-20-16 AT 10:27?AM (MST)

2-point....you COMPLETELY missed my point. No pun intended.
Thinking about mule deer and hunting every stinking day inclines me to spill over all the data to my hearts content. Tag numbers, buck averages, success rates, boundary changes, everything! It all helps me better determine which units and hunts to apply for. It also helps me realize how important it is for me personally to chase deer every year.
My point was pretty simple. If hunting deer in Utah every year is as important to you as it is to me, then you better give yourself more options. Whichever way you can.
I know so many Utah hunters that apply for GS tags and don't have a clue what their odds are for drawing.

Your assumptions of my thoughts concerning my brother and my nephew are off base as well.
I don't want any youth to sit home and if they did, doesn't mean they're lazy or whatever because my brother wants to limit them to only one option.
It's no coincidence that if you do your homework and give yourself multiple options, you more than likely will be chasing deer in the fall.
But I have little sympathy for guys who understand what is going on in Utah concerning the Tag grabs yet still limit themselves considerably on their applications and complain about it when they don't draw.
Everyone can't have the best of the best every time.
I apply for two different units. One unit I can pretty much draw every year while the other is about every other year. If I don't get the harder to draw unit, I have always gotten the easier one.
Go purchase a different weapon and learn it. It's fun to try different stuff out.

The tag allocation is set up on buck to doe ratios and for the most part, added the tags where the buck numbers justified more tags. They added nearly 3k to 4K tags!
Finally, I was one who voiced to add some tags. Not everyone can get a successful email. It's just the way that it is.

Also, I have very clearly voiced my opinions on the expo tags and auction tags in many if not all of the SFW threads. Feel free to go look. I understand the importance and need to auction some tags off, but it's getting out of hand and I feel they constantly want more. This is not as black and white as some may seem.
I have passed on A TON of bucks over the last several years looking for an opportunity at a big one. I've personally seen an increase in bucks in my unit and the tags increased for it as well and I hope that my "trophy" mindset has contributed to the buck growth in my unit over the last 4-5 years. Last year I could have poked a buck with the end of my muzzleloader after getting so close. But he wasn't the deer I was after.

This thread is about as frustrating as the guy who complains about overcrowding during their hunt but won't step foot off of a road. Like I said earlier. I don't know what Hoss' situation was with his application. But I know many who simply apply for what they want without doing any homework before hand and get mad that they didn't get the tag they wanted. Not saying that Hoss didn't do his homework. But what options did he give himself?
Hunters need to try harder to help themselves concerning these situations.




"Wildlife and its habitat cannot speak. So
we must and we will."
Theadore Roosevelt
 
I think the fact of the matter is this:

There is public land that is in essence "closed to hunting" for most of us every year (LE units). These public lands are managed using public funds, managing a public resource (deer, elk, etc.), and they are managed for "trophy" animals so that private organizations (conservation organizations) and private companies (outfitters) can make a lot of money off of them.

"Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!" 2 Ne. 28: 24
 
SO the "system is broke" you say.

That's what I have been telling yall for years Hossblur. But you and others were so busy worrying about deer tags and calling people trolls you missed that. Here's the problem though. The guys you hate ain't the problem and regressing into a past outdated failing system will not make one thing better for you or our children.

It's like the economy is bad and your guy didn't win the election so you are ready to start paying taxes to king George.

Fluffypuffy,

Funny how you try and demonize capitalism. You know the same system you use when you eat, buy gas, or BEG THE STATE TO SELL YOU A DEER TAG. Try living in Venezuela. Socialism is doing so well there, boy. You are going to have a hard time making me feel ashamed for working hard, earning money, and spending it on any legal thing I damn well please.
 
>
>Funny how you try and demonize
>capitalism. You know the
>same system you use when
>you eat, buy gas, or
>BEG THE STATE TO SELL
>YOU A DEER TAG.
>Try living in Venezuela.
>Socialism is doing so well
>there, boy. You are
>going to have a hard
>time making me feel ashamed
>for working hard, earning money,
>and spending it on any
>legal thing I damn well
>please.

Apparently Tri has no idea what capitalism is. To be a true capitalist you would produce the product being sold. Game animals (especially in the west) are part of the landscape and only exist these days because the government decided to manage and protect the herds for the benefit of the public using public funds. The state does not sell or give a tag. It does not own the animal. The people do. Therefore the selling of a tag cannot be considered capitalism. If you are going to troll, at least be an accurate troll.
 
>
>>
>>Funny how you try and demonize
>>capitalism. You know the
>>same system you use when
>>you eat, buy gas, or
>>BEG THE STATE TO SELL
>>YOU A DEER TAG.
>>Try living in Venezuela.
>>Socialism is doing so well
>>there, boy. You are
>>going to have a hard
>>time making me feel ashamed
>>for working hard, earning money,
>>and spending it on any
>>legal thing I damn well
>>please.
>
>Apparently Tri has no idea what
>capitalism is. To be
>a true capitalist you would
>produce the product being sold.
> Game animals (especially in
>the west) are part of
>the landscape and only exist
>these days because the government
>decided to manage and protect
>the herds for the benefit
>of the public using public
>funds. The state does
>not sell or give a
>tag. It does not
>own the animal. The
>people do. Therefore the
>selling of a tag cannot
>be considered capitalism. If
>you are going to troll,
>at least be an accurate
>troll.

+100000

Thats funny right stuff right there.
 
Guys I'm not trying to be irogant at all. I'm saying if it matters to you then make it happen. If is doesn't then no you should not have as much say or expect others to take care you and make sure you get the things you want or desire. With hunting or anything in life. I guess it comes down to fundemental difference oh how people approach life in general. If you want to hunt there is huge amounts of opportuntiy all around us. You can chose to continue to chase your passion and hunt or you can complain that things aren't the way they use to be. The world changes that is just a fact.
 
And theirs your problem boys. You think that deer are a no overhead entitlement gifted solely from the hand of God. The state doesn't need funds or have to work for the herds to remain healthy. It doesn't take time or investment to make deer hunting just your deer tag that of course you are entitled to since you "own" the deer.

You have no clue what honor, stewardship, or conservation is do you.
 
So, aside from all the tantrums, replete with foot-stomping and snot-blowing, because someone didn't get "their" tag, how do we fix the demand v supply issue?

Shall we manage wildlife? or Shall we open it up to everyone who wants a tag? Shall we go totally random drawings (Oh ya, that'll fix it so nobody goes without a tag, TIC). Some pretty sharp minds have set up a pretty good management system for wildlife and it's pretty okay if YOU get a tag but watch-out when you don't. Everyone from the Pope on down is to blame. Nice blanket!

Some of you guys are such whiners.

Zeke
 
>So, aside from all the tantrums,
>replete with foot-stomping and snot-blowing,
>because someone didn't get "their"
>tag, how do we fix
>the demand v supply issue?
>
>
>Shall we manage wildlife? or Shall
>we open it up to
>everyone who wants a tag?
>Shall we go totally random
>drawings (Oh ya, that'll fix
>it so nobody goes without
>a tag, TIC). Some pretty
>sharp minds have set up
>a pretty good management system
>for wildlife and it's pretty
>okay if YOU get a
>tag but watch-out when you
>don't. Everyone from the Pope
>on down is to blame.
>Nice blanket!
>
>Some of you guys are such
>whiners.
>
>Zeke

I would be fine with just stop selling 400-500 tags a year to the wealthy. Put them back into to the draw. Let everyone have a chance at them.
 
>And theirs your problem boys.
>You think that deer are
>a no overhead entitlement gifted
>solely from the hand of
>God. The state doesn't
>need funds or have to
>work for the herds to
>remain healthy. It doesn't
>take time or investment to
>make deer hunting just your
>deer tag that of course
>you are entitled to since
>you "own" the deer.
>
>You have no clue what honor,
>stewardship, or conservation is do
>you.

It is obvious you are very ignorant of the science of wildlife management.
 
"I would be fine with just stop selling 400-500 tags a year to the wealthy. Put them back into to the draw. Let everyone have a chance at them."

At least you are honest with your childishness. You actually think a difference of opinion on tag distribution of less than %1 of the big game tags is going to change the major problems mule deer are facing??????????

You just want to argue over who gets to kill the last deer and a heritage for our children and the deer herds be damned.

Grow up. Wealthy people ain't your problem.
 
>So, aside from all the tantrums,
>replete with foot-stomping and snot-blowing,
>because someone didn't get "their"
>tag, how do we fix
>the demand v supply issue?
>
>
>Shall we manage wildlife? or Shall
>we open it up to
>everyone who wants a tag?
>Shall we go totally random
>drawings (Oh ya, that'll fix
>it so nobody goes without
>a tag, TIC). Some pretty
>sharp minds have set up
>a pretty good management system
>for wildlife and it's pretty
>okay if YOU get a
>tag but watch-out when you
>don't. Everyone from the Pope
>on down is to blame.
>Nice blanket!
>
>Some of you guys are such
>whiners.
>
>Zeke

Bingo, less LE would help......about 10% more hunters get through the system. That's it, the answer is too man up, get over what happened in the good ol days and live in the now. We don't have the deer we had then, and unless you plan on kicking 1.5 million people out of Utah we aren't gonna get those deer back. So start teaching kids that hunting is a important, so important it's worth waiting for and working towards. Get them used to the idea that nothing is guaranteed and that they have to put effort into whatever they want.

I'm not wealthy, in fact I qualify for the earned income credit. For you tax guru's that means I'm what the government would consider 'poor' from an annual income perspective. I hunt every year, in state and out, I find ways to put extra hours in and make the money I need to hunt. My kids will do the same, and they for damn sure won't get on forums and complain about how the 'system' did them wrong. More than that was expected of me and I expect more than that of them.

That being said I'm blessed to have been raised in a family that felt this way, my dad worked more hours then anyone should ever have to, he put himself in a position to take us hunting frequently, we still do our share, but a lot of what we do is made possible by his struggle, I will do the same for my kids.

I'll get off the soap box now and admit there is a lot I'd like to see changed in our current system much of that is centered around a seperation of organizations and state, but all in all it's pretty darn good to live in the 'Serengeti of the west'. Some sarcasm intended there ??


https://www.facebook.com/strawberrybayoutfitters
 
Less then 1% of the tags, Huh city boy?That's a lie and you know it.

We're talking LE tags here city boy, you know the ones that take 20 years to draw. But then you wouldn't know anything about that.

Houston is it? I like how some city boy from the east comes on here telling people from the west how to manage their wildlife and land. Why is it people from big cities think they always know what's best for everyone else?

Yea I bet you get out hunting a lot living in Houston and all. LMAO!!!

You have no clue what it's like being able to get off work, throw your rifle or shotgun in the truck drive 10 minutes down the road and start hunting. I pity you.
 
After reading all of this, I think it went off topic multiple times. I think there are 4 or 5 separate topics being discussed, all of which are important. It has been the "Utah system" so long I can't remember the background any more.

As far as the tags being sold, I am curious how many LE tags are actually available? How many are sold via auction, raffle, etc? From what I understand, the preponderance of tags come from the non-resident allocation. What percentage of tags comes from that group? Or is it cut up that way? How much money does SFW get? How much money is spent on actual "on the ground" habitat improvements? It has been sooo long since I have heard the "facts" I don't even remember!

Free Draw Odds!
www.hunthardcore.com
 
For the record, I drew a tag so I wasn't whinning. Berry, and others, don't you find it odd that your solution to be a hunter in Utah, is to go out of state? If you truly believe that sitting out seasons is the proper way to be a hunter, then why aren't you sitting out seasons? The fact is, you and the others are saying the same thing I am. You want to hunt every year. You hunt every year. How is wanting that in my state any differnet than you doing that in a neighboring state? If things are so glorious, why are you taking your money elsewhere? Money talks doesn't it?

"those tags are less than 1%". Okay, so 99% if the hunters in this state won't be affected lets start with the low hanging fruit. Or better yet, take those tags and auction them off to the orgs. Let them compete. Let them take the risk that they might overpay and take a loss. You know, like TRI loves to talk about, CAPITALISM. I bid every week, that's business. Let them. The guaranteed winner should be the state, everyone else can take the risk. Then they can do what they want, the state made money, and if those orgs can after that, then what they do with it is up to them.

But again, MINDSET. You teach your kids that hunting is so important that they should sit out from time to time, all the while you support a system in which a tiny connected group NEVER DO? Why is Doyles clients hunting every year more important than your kids doing so? What is the mindset of you guys that you believe the only way for you to be a hunter, is to make sure your neighbor gives it up?
In one generation we went from school being cancelled, orange parade on Friday before the opener, and a parade of trucks with horns hanging out the back on Sunday evening, to closing the state, cutting out our neighbors and family, and creating a class system. Sorry TRI, but in Utah, we hunted deer before Utah was a state, and $fw saved them. It is our birthright, and those who surrender it for some fantasy of a 30" buck behind every tree, are the problem, not Berry, or Sage, or my kids wanting what I had, my dad had, and his dad had.

TRI, if I wanted Texas, I would have followed Glen Beck and Ted Nuggent and moved there. I don't, so I didn't.




"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
LAST EDITED ON May-20-16 AT 11:39PM (MST)[p]800,000+ deer with half the population that we currently have with 380,000 deer. Simple math. More opportunities to hunt in the the state of Utah than there was when I was growing up. Deer are just one single option and Utah is only one of the oppurtunities. I remember the days of school off on Friday and Monday and the parade of hunters Orange. I remember the heads lined up on the rack at Pearson tire. But times have changed and preserving the future requires changes in our game managment. That will be met with angry resistance by some. But it doesn't change the fact that times have changed and so must our approach. Having a deer tag is NOT a birthright. It sounds cool and passionate to say that but it's foolish to try and make that a valid argument. The fact that some support that argument just goes to prove what I have said for awhile now, if Utah were to issue over the counter either sex tags for mule deer there are "sportsmen" out there that would wipe out the entire herd without question. Good thing there are those sportsmen out there that are willing to fight and hold strong on saving us from ourselves while being blamed as the evil enemy.
 
No puffyfluffy that ain't a lie. Now you want to add the caveat of just LE tags. These fellas are talking about hunting being whiped out and nothing for the kids and your the spoiled brat who just admitted it's all about the trophy.

I may be the city boy but you don't know what hunting is about. Grow up slow down and start thinking.

A TAG distribution method OF LESS THAN %1 OF YOUR TAGS, isn't a threat to your hunting future. If you think it does maybe when you get to fourth grade the teacher will give you some better math skills.
 
>Doesn't Utah have its own forum
>for these sorts of pissing
>matches?


x2 and founder should start a forum called Anti SFW/MDF please whine here...
 
It's not just a Utah thing, there are many of us in other western states that need to keep tabs on what's happening in Utah though.
It helps us to combat any of Utah's problems from spewing over state lines.
After all if we end up like Utah, where the hell is guys like Muley 73 going to take his kids to hunt every year?

Keep up the good work Hoss, Hawkeye, Buzz, Big fin and all the others that take the time to help their neighbors stay informed.

There's always room around any campfire I have for fellas like you, got plenty extra Sturgeon poles and some damn good Chukar dogs to share also.
 
runamuck,

Where am I gonna take me kids hunting? Well where ever there are tags available, any tags not just over the counter tags. Like I stated above my 18 year old has had a tag 6 years in a row in Utah. My 3 nephews all drew tags this year....first year applying. Make a plan and make it a priority, if you do that it's amazing to see the opportunity. It's funny when you thank the guys like hoss and Hawkeye. They are Internet voices for sure. What do they actually do for our deer herds???? NOTHING !!!! But hey hitch your wagon to that star and let me know how it works for you, in the mean time I'll be hunting, with my kids! It's all about how much you want it, great thing about America!
 
>I t's not, just a Utah thing,
>th ere are man y of us
>in other wester n sta tes t hat
>need to kee.p tabs on
>what's happening in Utah though.
>
>It helps us to combat any
>of Utah's problems from spewing
>over state lines.
>After all if we end up
>like Utah, where the hell
>is guys like Muley 73
>going to take his kids
>to hunt every year?
>
>Keep up the good work Hoss,
>Hawkeye, Buzz, Big fin and
>all the others that take
>the time to help their
>neighbors stay informed.
>
>There's always room around any campfire
>I have for fellas like
>you, got plenty extra Sturgeon
>poles and some damn good
>Chukar dogs to share also.
>

man I've ate some shizx in my 42 yrs., but I can honestly say chukar dogs ain't one. Intrigued for sure!

Wisconsin had WAY over 500 hunters. How'd they do that? Did they wipe out their herd? Get real Muley. You know where I'm at, Be honest, your for taking me and others tag
so u can kill that 30". U just want less competition

"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
Too many people not enough deer too shoot! Go buy a spike elk tag and not shoot one of them either a little effort will get you alot farther than whining on this site ! I can't stand to log on here anymore but did so to see what people were getting hit for tags .hardly anyone was getting hit for utah tags so I thought no one drew then I realized that the only people posting were whiny crybabies who probably didn't even apply ! I've never not had a utah deer tag and I've only killed one deer in the last 5 years and my kids still haven't starved to death ! Hoss if you really want to take a kid hunting or just get out into the woods just go do it . Make your rant against SFW about something more than not getting to shoot the first 2 point you see Or some rich guy that gets to hunt every year . I'm the farthest from rich and I hunt every year in utah .
 
Nobody is saying you or your kids need to sit out. What I'm saying is Utah does a pretty good job of giving enough opportunity to anyone who doesn't draw a tag. Especially youth. They reserve a percentage of tags specifically for youth. Antlerless hunts as an option with 20% specifically for youth, mentoring program, youth bull elk hunts during the rut with a rifle, they added several thousand tags. Kids can now apply for LE,OIL hunts etc....

You can list up to 5 choices on your GS application. I wonder how many hunters actually list 3 or more choices? I doubt that many do. I listed 4.
Have you applied in the depredation pool? I apply each year
Have you tried finding landowners/farmers offering depredation tags? I've found one who gives me vouchers each year.
Elk control permits.....I may purchase one over the counter.
15k tags for spike and bull elk tags over the counter....
Do you purchase points for multiple antlerless species? My kids and I are next week. We do each year
Other state applications? I'm applying WY

If hunting is a priority to you or your kids, you can see there's plenty of different avenues to go down.
Plenty of opportunity.


My son drew a CWMU cow elk tag last year for one of the best properties in the state. He had 3 points. Had a blast! The operator was wonderful to work with and he was rewarded for his efforts.
All I did was bought him points each year and did some homework to find him a good CWMU unit.

I hope you are able to find an avenue that works for you this year Hoss.
Good luck to you and to all others hitting the hills this year!

"Wildlife and its habitat cannot speak. So
we must and we will."
Theadore Roosevelt
 
To all you envious cry babies, try this novel idea...lend a helping hand to some youth hunter or an over the hill nimrod on his or hers hunt. Maybe you can be camp biotch and feed the possee when they come in after a long day hunt. Or, maybe help out glassing or packing. Really, this shiit is getting old. In fact, I'm sending a donation to both SFW and MDF since I'm already a life member of RMEF. Hell, here is another suggestion, why don't your start a new org and do something for wildlife.
 
>To all you envious cry babies,
>try this novel idea...lend a
>helping hand to some
>youth hunter or an
>over the hill nimrod on
>his or hers hunt. Maybe
>you can be camp biotch
>and feed the possee when
>they come in after a
>long day hunt. Or, maybe
>help out glassing or packing.
>Really, this shiit is getting
>old. In fact, I'm sending
>a donation to both SFW
>and MDF since I'm already
>a life member of RMEF.
>Hell, here is another suggestion,
>why don't your start a
>new org and do something
>for wildlife.


I agree, I'm sending THE DON a check Monday!!

Look, then I'm out, $fw et al preach tag cuts. They preach trophy hunting. They preach limited access, limited tags, etc. All of which are going to make Utah the serengetti...... Then the guys that read from that bible come in here and preach it. But, they don't live it. They chase tags. They buy tags. Or whatever. They preach about sitting out. They talk about some guys being UNSUCCESSFUL. But they have ZERO intention of sitting it out. They want YOU to sit out. They talk about "opportunity" hunters like its bad thing. Yet they have a tag in their pocket EVERY year. So they talk about the THEORY of some guys will have to sacrifice. Some guys may have to give it up because they aren't serious. They will shoot every 2 point on the mtn. Yet, they are there, year after year.

Difference between them and you, your honest. YOU want a tag every year. You don't chase the entire state because you are part of a group. Or you have some connection to an area. Or your againt bought hunts. Or whatever. You simply want to hunt, not every so often, but every year. SO DO THEY, and they do, every year, yet somehow they are morally superior because they talk about the GRAND SACRIFICE.
So, I will buy into the not hunt every year, when Denny does. Or when Doyle shuts down for a year. Or when $fw does a every other year expo. Until then, asking someone else to sit it out is GRANDSTANDING.

I have a tag, my kids are to young to hunt, etc, etc. So all the whinning, or envy is just that, talk. YOU WILL NOT KILL A RECORD BOOK DEER BECAUSE YOUR NEIGHBOR DIDN'T HAVE A TAG. You'll do it because your hunted harder, hunted longer, were a better hunter, or even were just lucky. All of which aren't affected by those UNSUCCESSFUL letters. But there are 300+ of you that got those letters soley because of the orgs. So if your sitting on a UNSUCCESSFUL letter, who hurt your hunting more, the other guys with tags, or the orgs who sold them out from under you?

"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun
 
I doubt Denny or Doyle want me and my boys boulder deer tags ! I thought you were talking about opportunity
Hunting
 
He ain't talking about hunting. He's talking about horn chasing and he is bitter about getting priced out of it. He forgot it's about experience and not possession.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-21-16 AT 09:56PM (MST)[p]Prediction.

As, demand continues to increase against a limited supply, even if the supply does increase, which it can and should, more and more sportsmen will find themselves without all the opportunity they would like.

We continue to attempt to increase hunting populations, and we should. We try and do recruit many youth and I'm told more and more women are applying for permits and they are new hunters, not simply buying a tag for a son or a husband.

We like that, we promote it and we should.

However, as supplies are out stripped by demand, the systems will, as they already have, in the Western States on public lands, began to limit the ratio of big game animals to the number of sportsmen applying for permits.

As the supply tightens, we will experience less and less opportunity. In time, maybe sooner than later, the agencies will being to consider it unfair to allow anyone more than a single big game tag each year or eventually ever other year, and so on. I'm predicting, the day will come, when, if you draw a tag or buy a tag, you will not be allowed to hunt another big game animal that year. So, if you draw a deer tag, you will not be allowed to hunt any elk, moose, sheep, goat, antelope, that year, antlerless included. if you draw and elk, then no deer or anything else, for that year.

The idea being, with so many that want to hunt, and not enough opportunity to go, without harming the resources (yea, I know, killing the males doesn't hurt the population base) if you get to hunt one species, you must allow someone else to hunt, hunt some kind of big game, and you will not be allowed to hunt a second species, that year.

Secondly, if you draw a tag for a species, you will go to the back of the line for that species, until others that want to hunt the species have been given their opportunity.

It has nothing what ever to do with trophy hunting or guys getting ahead of the line by purchasing a tag outside the public draws, it has everything to do with spreading the opportunity to hunt, to as many sportsmen as the system can support.

I think it should happen tomorrow but I'm guessing it will take an uprising from those that aren't getting to hunt, after years of applying, before the agencies do it. The agencies prefer status que so as not to get blamed and filleted by the public but they will eventually get forced into it, and they will, after it's been done, be glad it happened.

Have a great hunt in 2016, enjoy the many opportunities that you have today because the in the future you will have even less. There are still antlerless draws, and elk tags to be had this year, so if hunting is your passion, find out all you can about getting one of those tags and get out there and enjoy your sport. Others are going to, they don't even know that your staying home.

DC
 
It's pretty plain to me that right, wrong, or indifferent - Utah needs to sever its relationship with SFW. When a group is a lightning rod for this much division, they are doing more harm than good. Period.
 
I say sever the relationship with titty babies who think they are entitled to deer tags and sever the relationship to the broke down western wildlife model of undervalued tags that keeps a stranglehold on your deer herds.
 
Lots of other states seem to manage their herds fine without SFW's involvement. I'm sure Utah could do the same.
 
>Lots of other states seem to
>manage their herds fine without
>SFW's involvement. I'm sure Utah
>could do the same.


Yes the obvious truth. But the outfitters cry the sky will fall without their Johnson administration entitlement mentality welfare tags. And DP will say the same without his $261K/year welfare payment.


*****************************************************
Greenhorns educate yourselves. Wherever SFW goes, scandals and corruption follow. Write your legislators:

http://kutv.com/news/local/allegations-of-corruption-surround-utah-hungtin-and-conservation-expo

https://www.cascwild.org/don-peay-the-man-who-would-be-king-baron/

http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs...ares-north-american-hunting-model-“socialism”

http://www.standard.net/Recreation/...16-Western-Hunting-and-Conservation-Expo.html

http://www.mtbullypulpit.org/2012/06/pox-on-fox.html

http://www.thewildlifenews.com/2013...on-essentially-buy-utah-division-of-wildlife/

http://westernvaluesproject.org/tax...hunting-energy-industry-over-hunters-anglers/

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/02/u...-but-hunters-cry-foul.html?smid=pl-share&_r=2

http://www.themudflats.net/archives/25891
 
Very constructive posting puffyfluffy. Did your big sister help you with that one.


Lets talk bad about my state then. You mean the state where I got every tag I wanted last year AND YOU COULD HAVE TOO. DO you realize how many free hunting opportunities I turn down in this state? I doubt it.
 
>Says the texas asswipe from the
>big city who has no
>idea of the goings on
>outside his own $h!thole
>state.

I resent that post. I am not from the big city. :)
 
>You should take
>a trip to Texas and
>see how well public lands
>have worked out for the
>common man.

It's worked out pretty great if you just want to hunt (whitetail) or waterfowl. Common man gets guaranteed deer tags to go hunt public. Heck, I can go to where I normally hunt and within a 30 minute drive in 3 directions could kill 3 bucks/yr on public....easily.
 
>Very constructive posting puffyfluffy. Did
>your big sister help you
>with that one.
>
>
>Lets talk bad about my state
>then. You mean the
>state where I got every
>tag I wanted last year
>AND YOU COULD HAVE TOO.
> DO you realize how
>many free hunting opportunities I
>turn down in this state?
> I doubt it.


Texas and Utah. Apples and oranges City boy.
No wonder you don't do wildlife management for a living, you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

They give out hog and dog dink whitetail permits in Texas like candy, then you have to go beg your Massa for permission to hunt.

BTW, how much are your under priced welfare dog dink whitetail permits?

Cbeard, wasn't talking to you.
 
Now who is telling lies. This state doesn't give out any hog permits. The more you talk the dumber you look. You might want to give it a rest.

I would wrather hunt "dog dink whitetails" every year I want killing more than one a year than sitting around crying on the internet that rich people don't "let" me go hunting.
 
>Less then 1% of the tags,
>Huh city boy?That's a lie
>and you know it.
>
>We're talking LE tags here city
>boy, you know the ones
>that take 20 years to
>draw. But then you wouldn't
>know anything about that.
>
>Houston is it? I like
>how some city boy from
>the east comes on here
>telling people from the west
>how to manage their wildlife
>and land. Why is it
>people from big cities think
>they always know what's best
>for everyone else?
>
>Yea I bet you get out
>hunting a lot living in
>Houston and all. LMAO!!!
>
>You have no clue what it's
>like being able to get
>off work, throw your rifle
>or shotgun in the truck
>drive 10 minutes down the
>road and start hunting. I
>pity you.

I wouldn't pity me for my Houston living arrangements. There are worse things in life when it comes to hunting.
 
Per berrysblaster's post #37 and zeke's post #54 which asks the basic question, How do we propose to deal with the fundamental problem of DEMAND far outweighing SUPPLY, the solution as best we can deal with it is actually quite simple. FOLLOW THE MANAGEMENT PLANS (with the main focus on science)!!!

Each unit and each species has a long term management plan which includes population numbers, buck to doe ratios or age objectives, habitat management, losses to predators or disease or roadkills, considerations for private land and public lands, competition with other species (wild and domestic) and general climate (specific weather issues being somewhat unpredictable.)

If that were happening without all the social tweeking designed to solely produce more trophies instead of more opportunities, we would find that there could be many more permits issued than there are now. For instance, under the current numbers, we have 23,380 more deer (10,489 bucks and 12,891 does) on general units than the deer plans call for. Given a 40% success rate for bucks and a 90% success rate for does, that could be about 40,500 more general deer tags than we now have. Yes, that's 9x more than the numbers you're already complaining about now!

Would I personally recommend that much of an increase, especially in only one year? Hardly! Many of those tags would be on units that are heavy on private lands or are used by many other outdoor enthusiasts which could make for safety and/or public perception issues or have only a few surplus animals. But 9 of those 15 units that are over population and/or buck to doe ratios are ideal opportunity manageable units. ALL WE HAVE TO DO IS RECOGNIZE THAT GENERAL DEER UNITS ARE TO BE MANAGED FOR OPPORTUNITY HUNTING, NOT TROPHY HUNTING! Yeh, I know, good luck with that.

DC would have us believe that his prediction has nothing whatever to do with trophy hunting and that the system and the DWR are driving the problem, but I beg to differ with his assessment. It has a lot do with trophy hunting and the trophy mentality that is driving the system. Those trophy tags (Expo, Conservation, Sportsman, Limited Entry, CWMU marketed and OIL tags) are expensive and difficult to obtain because they are rare. And in order to keep up their value, access to trophies has to be limited, even on general units. As long as that mentality drives the system, opportunity will take a back seat or will be ignored entirely and that's unfortunate because it doesn't need to be that way.
 
So, EfA-- what exactly is a trophy deer to you? I really think that most hunters would like to feel that whenever they go hunting they have a decent chance of seeing a mature buck-- not just yearlings.
As far as all the Conservation, Expo, Banquet permits auctioned or raffled-- the funds raised from those activities have and are being used to increase wildlife populations through the state, which in turn benefits all of us and gives more of us more opportunity to get a tag. It may not be great for everyone but its getting better for most of us. I just hope it continues to get better on all units. I just don't get any heartburn over what some folks are willing to spend to get a primo tag, if the money is used to help increase our opportunity to enjoy a little more success (however you want to describe what success is to you)
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-01-16 AT 00:03AM (MST)[p]>So, EfA-- what exactly is a
>trophy deer to you? I
>really think that most hunters
>would like to feel that
>whenever they go hunting they
>have a decent chance of
>seeing a mature buck-- not
>just yearlings.
>As far as all the Conservation,
>Expo, Banquet permits auctioned or
>raffled-- the funds raised from
>those activities have and are
>being used to increase wildlife
>populations through the state,
>which in turn benefits all
>of us and gives more
>of us more opportunity to
>get a tag. It may
>not be great for everyone
>but its getting better for
>most of us. I just
>hope it continues to get
>better on all units. I
>just don't get any heartburn
>over what some folks are
>willing to spend to get
>a primo tag, if the
>money is used to help
>increase our opportunity to enjoy
>a little more success (however
>you want to describe
>what success is to you)
>
My idea of a personal trophy is any game animal I'm hunting that presents enough of a challenge to make the hunt interesting, enjoyable and memorable. I've killed does and 2-points that were more of a trophy than some of the mature bucks I've killed. That's the same with fish. Size matters to many people, but not so much to me.

But it's not my definition of a trophy that I'm talking about or concerned about. It's your apparent definition. "Trophy", "Quality", "Mature", "Wall Hanger", "Pope & Young", "Boone & Crockett", "World Class", "Once-in-a-Lifetime" are words used to describe the type of buck or bull with large antlers or horns that is driving the management of Big Game Animals.

Yes, I think you're correct that most hunters, including me, would like to have a chance to kill (not just see) a mature buck whenever I go hunting, but the only way that can happen is if I'm on some unit with a permit in my pocket and a bow in my hand and the more times that happens, the better chance I have of killing that "Pope & Young" deer. But in the meantime, I will have some great times hunting some of my "trophies".

As for the money generated by the Expo, Conservation, Limited Entry, etc. tags, I have no problem with it being used to increase populations and, in fact, welcome it. What I do have a problem with is that some of it is used for unproven projects or programs and it is used as leverage by some of the organizations to pass laws or rules that favor the hunting of large antlered/horned big game animals at the expense of opportunity. And adding only 11% of the possible general deer tag increases (4,400 out of 40,545 possible) isn't my idea of a good return.
 
I think one of the problems elkfromeabove you may not understand is that most biologists no longer consider a deer herd that has a buck to doe ratio of 1 to 12 and an average age of mortality for bucks is 18 months, to be a healthy herd.

Managing for "opportunity" is not necessarily managing healthy deer herds.
 
>I think one of the problems
>elkfromeabove you may not understand
>is that most biologists no
>longer consider a deer herd
>that has a buck to
>doe ratio of 1 to
>12 and an average age
>of mortality for bucks is
>18 months, to be a
>healthy herd.
>
>Managing for "opportunity" is not necessarily
>managing healthy deer herds.

I'm not sure where you got that information or what biologists you've talked to, and I'm not sure if you're talking mule deer or whitetails, but that info doesn't impact the deer herds in Utah anyway.

First, ALL of the general deer units in Utah are at or above their established buck to doe ratio ranges which are either 15-17 or 18-20 bucks per 100 does. (7 are within range, 22 are above range.) In fact, the lowest unit is at 15.9 while the highest is 32.9, with the average at 22.3. Please note that these ratios are taken after the general hunting seasons.

Second, While many of the bucks killed are yearlings (spikes and some two-points), there are enough yearlings and older bucks left (see the above paragraph) to insure the vast majority of the does are bred (%95+) per the recent transplants and studies. Additionally, while it's true that there is a B/D ratio that's too low to sustain a healthy herd, there is also a B/D ratio that's too high to sustain a healthy herd. So, managing for "trophies" isn't necessarily managing for healthy herds either. Personally, I think that the Utah Mule Deer Committee came up with the best plan they possibly could to meet the desires of ALL hunters. Now we just need to follow it!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-01-16 AT 04:23PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jun-01-16 AT 04:23?PM (MST)

We are following the Mule Deer Committee plan. The exact number of tag increases is not and should not be spelled out by the MD Plan. That should be left up to biologists and the hunting public. No where in the plan does it say that once the management objectives are met (b/d ratios) that it is required that tags be increased. In the Central RAC meeting when the plan was eventually approved, the Central Region Big game manager was asked if anything in the plan could be changed or modified and the answer was -Yes. The plan was a guiding document and could be modified as necessary. If that were not the case, why would the RACs and public ever be involved in discussing and/or modifying the permit proposals set each year by the DWR. Hunters still need to have a say and their opinions vetted. Many units are way under population objectives and having "excess" bucks really isn't a problem on winter habitat in those cases. In fact, having more bucks creates more opportunity for success and higher harvest rates which equals happier hunters. We will still have ups and downs in populations but hopefully we won't tumble into the population depressions like we have experienced in the past. the best part of the plan in my opinion is the part that requires the DWR to take whatever action is necessary to increase buck numbers if a unit ever falls below the minimum levels e.g 15 or 18 b/d ratios.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Jun-01-16
>AT 04:23?PM (MST)
>
>LAST EDITED ON Jun-01-16
>AT 04:23?PM (MST)
>
>We are following the Mule Deer
>Committee plan. The exact number
>of tag increases is not
>and should not be spelled
>out by the MD Plan.
>That should be left up
>to biologists and the hunting
>public. No where in the
>plan does it say that
>once the management objectives are
>met (b/d ratios) that it
>is required that tags be
>increased. In the Central RAC
>meeting when the plan was
>eventually approved, the Central Region
>Big game manager was asked
>if anything in the plan
>could be changed or modified
>and the answer was -Yes.
>The plan was a guiding
>document and could be modified
>as necessary. If that were
>not the case, why would
>the RACs and public ever
>be involved in discussing and/or
>modifying the permit proposals set
>each year by the DWR.
>Hunters still need to have
>a say and their opinions
>vetted. Many units are way
>under population objectives and having
>"excess" bucks really isn't a
>problem on winter habitat in
>those cases. In fact, having
>more bucks creates more opportunity
>for success and higher harvest
>rates which equals happier hunters.
>We will still have ups
>and downs in populations
>but hopefully we won't tumble
>into the population depressions like
>we have experienced in the
>past. the best part of
>the plan in my opinion
>is the part that requires
>the DWR to take whatever
>action is necessary to increase
>buck numbers if a unit
>ever falls below the minimum
>levels e.g 15 or 18
>b/d ratios.

I'd guess that page 20 contains your favorite part that requires the DWR to take whatever action is necessary to increase buck numbers if a unit ever falls below the minimum levels e.g 15 or 18 b/d ratios.
"If the 3 year average bucks/100 does in a unit/subunit falls below the lower end of the set objective, permits on this unit/subunit WILL be reduced accordingly to achieve objective."

But page 20 (the very next sentence) also contains my favorite part that requires the DWR to take whatever action is necessary to REDUCE buck numbers if a unit ever EXCEEDS the MAXIMUM levels e.g 17 or 20 b/d ratios.
"If the 3 year average bucks/100 does on a unit/subunit exceeds the upper end of the objective, permits WILL be increased accordingly to achieve objective."

Note that the wording is of equal value in the two sentences which means the DWR has as much of an obligation to increase permits as they do to reduce permits to keep the b/d ratios within the set ratios, so please don't throw a fit next year when they are increased again. They're just following the plan.
 
I may need to go back and read all 90+ posts, but if one of the general units has 50 total deer and there are 22 bucks in that total, does that qualify as too high of a b/d ratio and a increase of buck tags will be implemented regardless of the total deer numbers?
 
I am not talking about what the buck to doe ratios are now. I am talking about what they become when all you do is manage for "opportunity" and screw everything else.

Let me ask you this what rancher Kills all of his bulls each year and expects his yearlings to do his breeding?

Betting on yearlings to get your breeding done is irresponsible and HORRIBLE WILIDLIFE MANAGEMENT. I don't know what people have been feeding you but its dangerous.
 
Tristate-

Nobody is saying that the DWR should manage completely for opportunity and "screw everything else." Take a minute to read the Utah Mule Deer Plan: https://wildlife.utah.gov/hunting/biggame/pdf/mule_deer_plan.pdf It was put together in an effort to, among other things, balance the competing interests of quality v. opportunity. Please also consider the current herd numbers and buck to doe ratios on the various units. As usual, your comments are way off base and ignore the facts. Nobody is asking the DWR to decimate the herds. They are simply stating that when numbers were down tags were cut according to the Mule Deer Plan. Now that numbers are improving, there should be some modest tag increases according to the Mule Deer Plan. There is plenty of room for moderation and balance.

-Hawkeye-
 
Hawkeye,

You mean that with the DWR paying for budgets with "wealth tags" mule deer numbers are climbing????

I know what people want and they can quote the plan all they want. The truth is just because numbers are climbing again you don't automatically alter your harvest. It is fairly typical in wildlife management that cutbacks are fast and brutal while gains are slow. People need to be patient and start trusting the professionals doing the job are better at it than they are.

The truth is managing wildlife for "opportunity" is a disaster now for wildlife. People on other threads have asked how we deal with the real problem of demand outweighing the supply and the truth is the first step is to quit managing for "opportunity".

Cheers,

Ben
 

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