Utah hunt changes (youth)

[ELKOHOLIC]

I just seen this proposal and think it's a great idea. I really hope this happens. I'm sure there will be several people outraged about this!

"Also, young hunters who don't have their own hunting permit might be allowed to use their parent's or grandparent's permit to take a big game animal in 2014."

 

[Roy]

How do you think that is good? All it amounts to is party hunting, somebody shooting grandma's deer for her and putting her tag on it. If they are old enough to hunt, then they should have their own license and tag. If the family doesn't have enought money for both grandma and little Johnny to have their own tags, and grandma doesn't really want to hunt they she doesn't have to buy a tag.

About one of the dumbest ideas I have ever heard of.

HOOK 'EM!
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[Robiland]

I HATE IT. We give way too much to our youth. I have 4 boys, 9, 7, 5 and 2. I'll tell you what, I guess I should put my 69 year old mom that doesnt hunt and hope she gets tags so that my kids can hunt if they dont draw. Its going to flood and put a bigger butt plug on the system.

I VOTE NO!!!

 

[ELKOHOLIC]

I knew you guys wouldn't dissapoint! Robiland, When your kids are old enough I hope you don't feel that way about youth getting to much opportunity. Chances are your kids may not get a tag the first year they put in. As for me, I would get a lot more satisfaction letting my boy shoot a deer on my tag than me shooting it. Obviously there would have to be rules put in place to make this work, but I think it could.

It's funny the guys that have the most grief about it could go buy there tag at the hardware store every year the day before the hunt. They never had to worry about not getting a tag.

ps. And before someone feels the need to bring up the age requirements Utah has.....I don't think all 12 year olds are ready to hunt at that age. My son will be 12 next year and I think I have taught him well about gun safety. Bottom line is, he will still need to be supervised every step of the way. He pointed out some things he seen during the rifle hunt this year that he understood wasn't safe, but apparently there is 60 year olds that haven't figured it out yet.

 

[ELKOHOLIC]

And Roy, Tell me with a straight face (on the internet) that you wasn't part of the party hunt era. Actually Don't even bother...

 

[coyoteslayer]

I drew a kiabab tag in AZ this year, and they have that rule in place. My 10 year old is hunting. I had to mail my tag into the az dwr and they put the tag with his name on it. It says it is transfered from me. The rule in Az is the person who transfers the tag has to be in field with the new tag holder. I am sure it will be abused in some ways, but when used correctly, what an awesome deal. I am still hunting, right beside my son, usually packing the gun for him, but when it comes time to pull the trigger, it will be him that does it and not me. How much better memories will this hunt be for both of us, with him shooting the deer instead of me.

 

[pookiebar]

I am ok with this as long as the parent/grandparent or whoever the tagholder is, is sitting right there with them. I say if they catch a kid out on his own and his name isn't on the tag then the tag holder gets a $1,000 fine no questions asked. That way you don't get to use grandmas tag who is never going to hunt anyway.

Put some teeth to the punishment that way it hopefully deters some people.

 

[sled_guy]

I like it... if the adult has to be with the youth hunter. I see it as my boy and I are sitting on a ridge and a deer comes out and I hand him my gun and he shoots it.

I may or may not have experienced that sort of thing with my dad when I was a kid.

sled_guy

 

[ELKOHOLIC]

LAST EDITED ON Oct-28-13 AT 10:35AM (MST)[p]Coyote, That's kind of how I see it working. Good on you for doing that!

Roy, I see your point, but I think if they are smart this can be done in a positive way. By the way, I was 14 when you was 16.

 

[Roy]

LAST EDITED ON Oct-28-13 AT 10:28AM (MST)[p]>And Roy, Tell me with a
>straight face (on the internet)
>that you wasn't part of
>the party hunt era. Actually
>Don't even bother...

Well Elkoholic I can tell you this with a straight face both in person and on the internet:

Yes, I was a part of it - BUT INDIVIDUALLY - I DID NOT PARTICIPATE! Many of my family may have, but NOT ME!

I had to wait until I was 16 before I could hunt - and guess what - I WAITED! The year I turned 16 was the first year they lowered the limit to 14 and I was pissed as hell because I could have hunted at 14 but I DIDN'T! - I WAITED!! I could have killed grandma's buck for her every year since I was 8 - many of my cousins / acquaintances did - BUT I DIDN'T! AND IT SICKENED ME!

Here is an example. When I was 21, I was fresh off a mission, didn't have a job yet, wasn't enrolled in school, and had the full two weeks to hunt. My younger brother and sister both had tags too but only had opening weekend to hunt and at first legal light on opening morning they both opened up on a monster 1X2 and missed twice each so in the heat of the moment I drew up my rifle and touched one off and folded that little thing up on a dead run like a jack-knife. So at 7:15AM or so on that opening morning I put my tag on that monster and my whole hunt was OVER. I put my rifle away and though I continued to go out with my dad and grandma, spotting and swamping for them I WAS DONE!

Then one day, as I was spotting for my grandma, she hit a buck twice, then lost it in plain sight. I could see it moving away from us heading towards a big, steep, canyon, and though she tried she just couldn't see it limping along, and to keep it from getting away, or down into the canyon she handed the rifle to me and told me to shoot it. So, feeling trapped between a rock and hard place, I put the kill shot on it. It ended up in the canyon anyway and I ended up dragging / packing it out of the steep son-of-a-gun for her and her tag went on it.

I felt guilty about it, so when we saw the game warden the next day - I turned myself in and told him the whole story. He listened intently and only asked if I thought I saved the buck from any undo suffering. I said "Yes, probably", and he just laughed at me and slapped me on the back and told me to forget about it.

So, yes, I do understand completely why they are proposing this, and I will admit, this is the first I am hearing about it and probably need to research it a little more, but my offhand reaction is that NO - this is not a good thing. It seems to me that it just a way of getting around the law and legalizing what both hunters and wildlife law enforcement officers have been ignoring in large part for years and years. Maybe that is a good thing as you point out, but until I get a chance to research it a little more and read up on it, my opinion toward it is still strongly negative. (Maybe I am still just mad that I had to wait all those years and then the State went and changed the law on me - just to spite me - right as I turned 16!) ;-)

HOOK 'EM!
_______________________________________

Since I am frequently asked about my religion on this site and others, I have created a profile that explains my beliefs. If you are interested in finding out more about my faith, please visit the link below:

http://mormon.org/me/6RNQ/

 

[Hawkeye]

I don't like the proposed change. I accompanied my father on many hunts as a youth without a tag and loved every one of them. To this day, some of my most memorable hunts are helping friends with their LE and OIL hunts. I think the proposed change creates an opportunity for abuse and there are already plenty of hunting oppportunities available for our youth.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Bowtech Destroyer
Winchester Apex .50 Cal

 

[Deerlove]

I have two youths and I'm against it. What a can of worms.

 

[Foreman4x4]

What a
>can of worms.

+200!

 

[cannonball]

I am against it and also for it! Confused?

I can see great abuse with Grandma putting in if her health is able to make it on the mountain for the grandchild, making just one more permit to draw for, but you better believe I will use it for my grandkids.

I'm getting to the age it is questionable whether I would like to put a fly in the water or get before light to chase a buck. I would love to go hunting with a grandchild who was not able to draw knowing he could shoot the deer legal. In the good old days when you had to be 16 there were a lot of us who shot our Dad's deer.

 

[swbuckmaster]

LAST EDITED ON Oct-29-13 AT 09:51AM (MST)[p]NO its a bad idea. It only helps the ones who can afford the tags. It looks like Ill have to be buying tags for my mom, dad, grandpa and grandmas. So my kids can keep up with the point creep. Total bull crap!

who farted?

 

[pookiebar]

LAST EDITED ON Oct-29-13 AT 10:05AM (MST)[p]This is a good point I had not considered point creepage!

I will change what I said, I am ok with this only on the general season hunts, or antlerless hunts with the same stipulations I had before.

I am ok with this as long as the parent/grandparent or whoever the tagholder is, is sitting right there with them. I say if they catch a kid out on his own and his name isn't on the tag then the tag holder gets a $1,000 fine no questions asked. That way you don't get to use grandmas tag who is never going to hunt anyway.

 

[Zeke]

If the youth want to hunt, they will. Period. We don't need to make them feel like they're even more entitled than they already are! It's a slippery slope to abuse anyway!

This is a joke when we feel the need to cater to the little ones. I hunted because I wanted to go. I froze my azz off just like all the rest of you even though I wasn't handed a tag on a silver platter.

I say, let them all play their damned video games so they and their parents can stay out of the woods! "The future of hunting" my azz!

Can I make it more clear?

Entitlements are the downfall of this country and we always make it seem litle we're doing someone a favor. The more you hand-out the less you hand-up!

Zeke

 

[ELKOHOLIC]

"I wasn't handed a tag on a silver platter."

No, but you was handed one by the clerk at the hardware store. I understand a lot would be against this, but some of you sound like some really bitter people!

 

[Zeke]

"Bitter people"
Not me.
I'm just strenuously voicing my opinion. No reason to start to pigeon-hole us just because we expressed our views.
Nobody started calling you a demo just because you love hand-outs!
Love, Zeke

 

[Zeke]

Remember, these are not "extra" tags. They will come out of the Sportsmans pockets and go to grandma so some youth can hunt... Because his dad wants him to.
Some of you will get to stay home while Gma (who doesn't give a hoot about hunting) gets a tag!
Points creep, abuse, taking tags from dedicated hunters, is what you'll have when you take from one and give to another! Sounds like big government in action!
Ok, carry on.
Zeke

 

[swbuckmaster]

you tell em zeek

who farted?

 

[ELKOHOLIC]

Zeke, You win! How did you know I liked handouts, was a dem, liked obamacare, just from reading this post. You are so off base it's not even funny. I think if we was setting around the campfire talking about this you wouldn't have your feathers so ruffled. I don't want point creep, people putting in relatives, etc. That would suck if that ever happened. I just though it would be cool if a dad could hand over his gun to his son and watch him shoot his first muley even though he wasn't able to draw his first year. Feel free to have the last word. I wasted enough time on this.

 

[Zeke]

Oh my! I didn't know you didn't want different views. Had I known it was so easy to make you roll out the white flag, I'd just have said "I disagree" and left it at that.
If you think it's a good idea then good for you! You SHOULD have an opinion. We usually don't differ but on this point we do.
Sorry bro if you thought it was a personal attack. It was not.
It WAS just MY opinion and nothing more.
Meant no personal offense
Zeke

 

[elkantlers]

I like the idea. I think a youth under 16 ought to be guaranteed a deer tag that is good for all three hunts on certain units. There are a some of the bigger units, like the central mtns and Wasatch, that could handle the few extra youth hunters.

 

[swbuckmaster]

Thats different than doing the point scam on the limited entry units.

who farted?

 

[Robiland]

I agree with Zeke 100% on this. Keep at it!!!

 

[Packout]

Havn't we spent the last 25+ years fighting the "Party Hunting" mentality? Now we are re-enforcing it. As a very supportive parent of my kids (and yours), I think this idea is a poor one at best.

I know my parents and my wife's will be applying for tags if they implement this. Just increased the odds by 3 applicants from one family. How many more will do the same? There are Disability Laws that will be played which will allow grandma to sit in the truck (or the nursing home) while Little Johnny is miles up the mtn.

I'll just need to figure out how to give Grandpa's permit to one of my kids and not to the cousins. But which one of my kids will I give it to? And are the cousins better at guilt-tripping Grandma than my kids?

From some of the families I have known over the years, I see fist-fights a brewin' and Uncles not talking at funerals because Cousin Johnny got the permit and little Ricky didn't.....

Can of worms is correct.

 

[deadI]

I don't like it at all. If the kid wants to hunt they need a tag. Now your going to get kids out there with no hunter safety shooting at deer. Don't like it one bit.

DeadI/Jared

 

[elkun]

bad idea, this is not going to get kids to hunt. just puts more people putting in,,,,,

 

[peakfreak]

1988 was when they changed the rule from 16 to 14. I was 15 and way excited and didn't sleep a wink the night before the opener. I killed my first buck with my dad there by my side. A memory he and I will never forget. The difference today is some youth go years without drawing a tag. I was blessed to just buy one every year over the counter. I think every situation is different for the individual. I like the idea of surrendering your tag for the purpose of a youth hunter. However the surrendered person needs to be in the field with the hunter. I think it is a way to legalize something that is already being done. My 13 yr. old son killed his first buck last week on his own tag. It was a great day. He has been on cloud 9 all week. He is hooked to say the least. Because of this experience I will have a hunting buddy for life. If he never drew a tag like others I know I might be missing out on a life long hunting buddy. The youth need to get tags period! I see this as a good opportunity to legally get them a tag by not issuing more tags. I like it if it is done right.

"You'll never get a big one if you shoot a little one"

 

[Zeke]

Kids never drawing a tag? What do you mean? Some of you guys make it sound so bad for the kids! You must be talking some LE hunt!
They can apply at 14 and have a tag at 15 in just about every general deer unit out there. That's a year earlier than the oldtimers (me) could hunt anyway!
If the dad really wants them to shoot something every year then a doe antelope leftover tag and a tank of gas is pretty easy to come by.
They get antlerless elk tags skimmed off the top already (it's a good thing) and they can shoot a cow almost every year.
There is opportunity out there for the dads and kids! I should know, I've raised 5 kids to adulthood and they all hunt! When they don't have "this" tag, they hunt "that".
There's no reason to pop the top of the can-O-worms.
Pretty simple to hunt with a youth every year but some of you guys seem to be making this way too hard!
Zeke

 

[dz]

I'm an outsider looking in, so take what I have with a grain of salt. 1st off to slow down the political bashing, I'm as conservative as they come. I have paid my own way since I got married 31 years ago. And yes that was when I was 16. I live in Oregon now and they have a mentored program. I do like it. Is it abused, yes. For the most part I think it is giving the next generation of hunters a step up. And the way I see it they need it. Most would rather sit around and play video games then hit the outdoors. The tag stays in the name of the adult and the youth can sign up for the program. Out in the field it is legal to hand them the gun and they can shoot the animal. Also as a bonus they can get a point for signing up. This is the burn that moves them ahead of others. Some of the youth draw hunts here are very competitive. The dads that start their kids at 9 in the program and stay the course can get their kids up pretty high in the point pool. It can be a very good thing for those younger ones that want to go. If you make them wait, they may lose the drive. Entitlements are a bad thing no matter how you look at it. Allowing youth to shoot an adults animal is not an entitlement. It is a way to keep the hunting heritage alive in a very time demanding era. Good luck Utah on this tough topic.

DZ

 

[Vanilla]

How many irrelevant emotionally and politically charged descriptions that don't apply can we throw in here? Maybe that if you support this you automatically support Obamacare and Nancy Pelosi?

No, Gma can't sit miles away down the mountain or at the nursing home. Go read the law passed and you'll see that simply is 100% false. Completely, totally, and entirely false! No, it's not an "entitlement" either. It's totally up to the tag holder, who can receive no compensation for the tag transfer. No youth hunter is entitled to anything here. Nobody can lay claim to any tag, it has to be voluntarily given up. It also is NOT party hunting. You assign it before the hunt and it becomes that youth's tag...not a chance for either/or to shoot a big game animal with an in-the-field decision. Point creep? Yes, it may impact that down the road. But we could be decades before you see that impact, if at all.

Keep in mind, the WB still has to pass the rule. It's not legal to do so yet. And they could restrict it if they choose. My vote would be to exclude LE or OIL tags from the program. Or if they were including, both parties lose their points and waiting periods apply to both for LE and both are excluded from future OIL tags. However, I think the good that can come on general hunts vastly outweighs any theoretical abuse that could happen.

 

[grizzly]

When this law was proposed, I was vocally against it on MM. Now it has come to fruition, I will use the laws as they stand to my best advantage. Hypocritical? I don't think so.

I argued against it even though it would benefit those in my situation (this is why it is not hypocritical). I even sent letters to both of my State Legislatures asking them to oppose (neither did). At this point it would be stupid for me to cut off my nose to spite my face by not using any lawful means to better my kid's hunting future.

My in-laws don't hunt, and are old enough to not require hunters safety. I don't yet have children. I am financially able to buy points for both my in-laws every year for every species allowed. The day my children are able to hunt, they will already have a pile of points to start with. We'll just have their grandma draw a good tag and "mentor" them.

My kids will be at a distinct advantage to those without non-hunting family members or the financial well-being to participate in this practice.

This is exactly why I don't like the law. There are plenty of kids who are now at a major disadvantage. It is really too bad.

Grizzly

 

[Packout]

LAST EDITED ON Nov-01-13 AT 01:17PM (MST)[p]Vanilla- It is my opinion there will be disability issues which will come into play with these permits. How can Grandpa X be able to give his permit to his grandson because he is able to hike, while Grandpa Y can not due to a disability limiting his mobility? The disability laws will come into play, allowing that portion of the law to be unenforceable or be changed to mirror the current law which allows the disabled to hunt earlier or later than the masses.

 

[Vanilla]

>LAST EDITED ON Nov-01-13
>AT 01:17?PM (MST)
>
>Vanilla- It is my opinion there
>will be disability issues which
>will come into play with
>these permits. How can
>Grandpa X be able to
>give his permit to his
>grandson because he is able
>to hike, while Grandpa Y
>can not due to a
>disability limiting his mobility?
>The disability laws will come
>into play, allowing that portion
>of the law to be
>unenforceable or be changed to
>mirror the current law which
>allows the disabled to hunt
>earlier or later than the
>masses.

There is no legal argument for the disability laws you speak of to trump the provisions in this law. I assure you that if this is your worry, rest easy, Packout. It simply isn't going to happen.