Utah - Think You Can Draw??

[backinthegame]

So based on some discussion in the Mule Deer section yesterday I decided to look over some numbers for the great state of Utah...

These are based on current numbers of applicants and current tag numbers. Rifle or Any Weapon tags.

Each is assuming you're starting fresh. Zero points. Living the dream of getting that tag.

Now of course, you might win the lottery and grab a tag somewhere along the line, (yeah, right ;-)) but until you're GUARANTEED...here you go:



DEER

Henry Mtns. - Resident: 193 years. Non-Resident: 2,541 years.
Paunsaugunt - Resident: 27 years. Non-Resident: 130 years.
San Juan - Resident: 27 years. Non-Resident: 43 years.
Vernon - Resident: 25 years. Non-Resident: 21 years.
Book Cliffs - Resident: 14 years. Non-Resident: 32 years.

ELK

Pahvant - Resident: 91 years. Non-Resident: 149 years.
Monroe - Resident: 54 years. Non-Resident: 125 years.
Beaver - Resident: 54 years. Non-Resident: 280 years.
San Juan - Resident: 50 years. Non-Resident: 367 years.
Wasatch - Resident: 18 years. Non-Resident: 29 years.



So just some quick highlights:

- Henry Mountains. 193 years and 2,541 years are NOT typos.

- Vernon. Quicker as a non-resident than a resident.

- "Great" Resident elk tags. All at least 50 years...say you're starting pretty young. Age 20. Could you hunt them at 70? Or 75? Or 111?

- "Great" Non-Resident elk tags. Nothing better than 125 years. Wasatch is doable...maybe.

If you've got points...you might think you're ahead of the game. And I guess technically you are, kind of. But as we learned yesterday, even with 10 points as a resident you're waiting 59 years longer to be guaranteed a Henry's tag.

Not only that, but with non-residents now being able to purchase points for all species the odds are only gonna get worse for them, and significantly so.

Just some food for thought...Utah's in a pickle. Thousands upon thousands of guys will NEVER, NEVER draw the tag they're after. Bottom line.

Solution? Is there one?

But hey...if you think deer and elk are tough, you could be putting in for Desert Bighorn. The San Rafael will take you 325 years in you live in Utah, and 2,327 if you don't.

 

[VELVETRUSH]

Utah needs to pull their head out and find a way to burn points. They need to micro manage and make you use points for all tags first choice. kick the limited entry elk hunt out of september. Yes rifle hunters that is you, but it will open so much oppurtunity for more tags when hunters are not hunting them during the rut because the success ratios will go down. Utah is the only state that has these stupid hunt dates.

 

[BIGJOHNT]

LAST EDITED ON Sep-18-09 AT 11:23AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Sep-18-09 AT 11:19?AM (MST)

Thats whats nice about the utah points system .Its not just the max point guys that get the tag. They have better odds,sure. But there is still hope even if you only have one point you have a chance for a tag.
I have seen guys with six points or even one get a phavant elk hunt. If I had to wait for max points with no chance to get a tag, I guess I might lose hope.
Even with tough odds I think our state of Utah has some great hunting opportunitys. I am not saying I agree with all of the dwr decesion,but when I look at the tropy elk taken in coloardo , idaho or wyoming. In general they are not impresive.
I know what the odds says, just the numbers. But in my case . I have hunted with my dad on a trophy indian peaks elk hunt ,I have drawn a fish lake elk tag, My son has drawn a youth elk hunt,i have drawn a tropy deer tag and antelope. Along with several cow elk tags and doe tags threw out the years. So if I look at those odds , I guess we shouldn't have tried to put in for any tags ? Those tags where drawn over 17 years or so . This is not to mention the hunts with friends , oh and my brother in laws phavant elk tag last year . A late hunt . But thats another story.

 

[Packout]

Taylor- Great post, although you are muddying the waters with facts. haha The saddest part of the whole deal is people are actually satisfied hunting a mature bull maybe once or twice in their life.

Look at the Henry Mtn deer herd. They give 40 or so permits to hunt a herd of 2,000 deer. This year permits were reduced, yes permit numbers decreased, because the unit isn't meeting age objective. Obviously the unit is meeting hunter satisfaction objectives and some guys (OH THE HORROR) actually shoot 150" 3 year olds and smile all the way home. Imagine that...... and put the same secenario across the state. That is where the opportunity has gone.

 

[Craig]

So your saying I still have a chance?

 

[Daxter]

Pretty depressing math eh? I have said it before and I will say it again, we need to make anyone who hunts a species use their points to do so. If draw a general season Northern Region deer tag it should use all your deer points. Do it like NV or CO and make people use their points when they draw. Merge the limited entry and general season application process and make people decide if they want to hunt on a regular basis on lower quality units, or wait for years to hunt on LE units. Let people buy leftovers after the draw without loosing their points, but make people choose when they really want when they put in. It will help draw odds for people that want to hunt trophy units, and for people that want to hunt general season every year.

Dax

 

[sremim]

That is how AZ does it. No matter what choice you draw, all your points are used. The only way to hunt in AZ and not lose points in the drawing is going OTC archery deer, or pick up one of the few leftover tags they have.





























"I'll keep my guns, freedom, and money.
You can keep the "change"!"

 

[apollosmith]

Check http://wildlife.utah.gov/hunting/biggame/pdf/09_stats/09.pdf for updated numbers. Yours are a bit off, but not too much.

Your numbers assume a few things:

1. That the number of tags will remain stable over time.
2. That hunters that put in for these units will always put in for these units.
3. That the application numbers will remain steady for these units.

It's very likely that we'll start seeing many more tags on the Henries, for example, in the next few years as soon as it hits it's age objective. This will decrease the wait time tremendously.

Quite a few hunters with 10+ points bail on these high demand units once they realize they can be guaranteed a tag almost anywhere else in the state... or if they die. For example, for the Henry Mtns any weapon tag, 105 residents had 10 points in 2008 (none of them drew), but only 95 applied this year. This alone will trim the wait by a lot.

But, you also have to factor in the increase in applications. When you look at the trends for the Henry's, application #'s have increased 25% in each of the last 3 years. This means that there is a higher likelihood that somebody with <10 points will draw the remaining regular tags. If this trend continues, it will make it even harder to draw these remaining tags over time.

Overall, your assessment is spot on - it will take a VERY long time to draw these high demand tags unless you already are very close to maximum points for that unit or are very lucky (someone drew the Henry's with 1 point this year - 1 in a bazillion odds!).

 

[RidgeRebel]

The numbers are depressing but I am greatful that I can hunt spike elk and decent mule deer every year. Sounds like I might as well enjoy it while it lasts and keep writting checks to the DWR every year for my point. (After all the next winner could be ME!!! LOL)

P.S.
Would it be out of line to have a spike elk shoulder mounted? LOL...

 

[trophyfever]

Wow-over whelming reality! I'll have 12 points nonres next year for archery elk? what are my odds for top trophy units.I'm trying to outlive my draw but no success yet-drawing that is. Also, have lots of general buck points thaat I hope to go for sure next year but never hunted in Utah. spent most of my time in Arizona, Colorado, and Calif.

comments please on draw and unit.

thks

 

[1911]

...but, zero percent of the people who did not put in drew a tag....ever.

 

[Flint]

I doubt you'll ever see significantly more deer tags on the Henries. It is a limited range and simply isn't conducive to a giant deer herd.

 

[Seabass]

I agree that hunting spike elk is great but even this opportunity is probably going to disappear eventually. Keep in mind that once wolves become established in Utah they will be taking away a MAJOR portion of the elk population and this will further reduce hunting opportunities, especially spike and antlerless permits. Considering on average a wolf kills 4 elk per month(2 for food, 2 for sport), do the math - there's currently somewhere around 1000 wolves in Idaho, which means there's about 4000 less elk each year in that state. Then consider they reproduce at a rate between 24 and 35 percent, they primarily kill the young and pregnant, and they're migrating to Utah, this means we can kiss our annual hunting traditions good bye! I live in Montana and in some areas elk tags have already been reduced substantially - over 90% in places, strictly due to the impact of wolves. So enjoy your spike hunting while you can because it's not going to last forever.

 

[NWElkHunter]

Velvetrush I agree! I know it doesn't solve the problem, but it has always seemed to me they could pick up the pace by doing away with rifle rut hunts for elk or at least severely limit them...

 

[DonVathome]

I love these kinds of posts, I used to do the same stuff but got bashed for being negative. Luckily I have 8 points for elk now (NR) missed a few with AR301 hunts. But at least I am WAY ahead of the pack. I will likely bowhunt so I will get a tag. Seeing new apps is amazing, same in AZ. Many times I saw guys post get a tag every 5-6 years (NR bow) no freakin way now on average. The game has changed.

The amazing thing is, what "helps" those odds over LOOOOONG term is not the guys who draw leaving, it is guys passing away or giving up. Looong odds tags have 3 times as many guys stopp applying then draw.

That lowers to to every 50 years! Ha!

Neat info, now calculate sheep odds........

Good luck, I will be in Utah for elk in 5 years max and enjoy it. I will never be able to draw again (I am 38 now). New draw regs are rough.

 

[excaliber]

" Considering on
average a wolf kills 4
elk per month(2 for food,
2 for sport), do the
math - there's currently somewhere around 1000 wolves in Idaho,
which means there's about 4000
less elk each month in
that state. "

Fixed it for you.

 

[dillon]

Let me say that the mud is deep in this thread. I have eight points for elk, not too many seeing as of how many people out there have more than I do. If you don't understand bonus points then try to understand this. If you don't put in you can't get the tag. Elk permits have increased substantially over the past few years in Utah, and more guys are getting to hunt the big boys. Utah is like 1000 elk away from their population goal, so as soon as we hit that number we will see more tags than ever before, especially cow tags.

I think that anyone who takes over 15-18 years to get a big bull tag is struggling to read that stats or is a non-resident.

I have eight and the Pahvant is mine in seven years give or take two years.

I do hate that the guys with the most points get half the tags, but that is only because I don't have as many points as they do, they have been waiting forever to get their hunts.

The goal: Keep wolves out of Utah, and let the division reach their goals.

 

[backinthegame]

Well dillon, I hate to be the bearer of bad news...but let me clear up some of the "mud" you're having trouble seeing through.

The numbers are black and white...

You've got 8 points now, meaning that this past year you had 7. Based off the very odds that we are all supposedly having a tough time reading, you've got 775 guys putting in for the Pahvant with MORE points than you. You've got another 112 guys in your same point group.

There are 10 bonus tags going to the max points guys. Well, unfortunately all 775 of the guys ahead of you are going to be "max-pointers" before you will, so it's gonna take 77.5 years to weed those guys out based purely on bonus tags.

Yeah, some of those guys ahead of you will draw any number of the 11 other regular tags. Last year was a pretty good year...9 out of the 11 regular tags went to guys with more points than you. That's rare, normally it'll be more like 4 or 5. So just for fairness sake, let's say that 15 of those 775 guys ahead of you get tags every year. 10 get bonus tags, 5 get regular tags.

775 divided by 15 = 51.66 years.

52 years...and all the guys ahead of you will have their tags. You'll finally be a "max-pointer"!!

So now you just gotta worry about those 112 guys in your same point group...based on 15 of them getting a tag every year, 10 bonus tags and 5 regular tags, just like above...

112 divided by 15 = 7.46 years.

And after only 59 YEARS (plus the 8 already invested, of course) you've finally got that tag!!!

You're right dillon, you'll never draw if you don't put it. I'm not saying don't put in...not at all. You could hit the lottery and draw your tag in the next 7-9 years like you're planning, but if you do,make no mistake: YOU WON THE LOTTERY. Your chances of drawing that Pahvant tag anytime in the next 50 years is very, very slim. If you don't understand what I'm saying...check the odds and do the math yourself. It's very simple math, and yeah, it's not exact because tag numbers will vary slightly, applicants will vary slightly, etc. But nothing drastic is changing. The simple math is there in front of you...tons of guys putting in for very few tags.

Sure, tag numbers will probably increase some in the coming years, but it's gonna take a HUGE increase in order to sway odds in your favor. Huge. Having your Pahvant tag in 7-9 years is a pipe dream...it could happen, if you're one lucky SOB. Which you might be!! ;-)

http://wildlife.utah.gov/hunting/biggame/pdf/09_stats/08.pdf

Your hunt in on page 61 of the PDF file from the DWR.

Of course I'm assuming you're putting in for the any weapon tag, since that's what we're talking about here...if you're putting in for archery, your odds with your 8 points are very good as a matter of fact...you'd have the tag in 3-4 years.

 

[Dahlmer]

Please, no more intelligent, data backed arguments. You're bound to get yourself into a lot of trouble for putting forth a logical and well-thought-out premise like that. I want to continue to hold on the pipe dream that like Lloyd Christmas I still have a chance.

 

[woodruffhunter]

Best at times to forget the odds (instead of not applying). I have drawn 2 "impossible to draw tags".

The draw odds are sad, but reality.

 

[backinthegame]

Truth is guys, and it's a sad truth, is the odds are much, much worse than most of us imagine. I started with all this after telling a non-resident friend who wants and elk tag that "if you start now you'll be lucky to get one in 30 years..."

That got me thinking...would he even be able to get it in 30 years?

Then I saw a thread in the Mule Deer section asking the question regarding where to apply with 10 points. Somebody said the Henry's, although the poster "would probably be waiting at least a few more years..."

That got me thinking...no way it would really only be "a few" more years, would it?

So I went to the odds reports and did some reasearch...I always knew the odds were bad. I'd heard and talked about it like we all had...I figured like a lot of us that although they were bad, they couldn't really be THAT out of control, could they?

Well...they could. And they are. My non-resident buddy? Try 30 years x 5. 150 years, give or take a couple of course.

That guy with 10 points waiting for the Henry's? A few years? If you consider just under 60 years a few, then yeah. ;-)

The way Utah's point system works we DO all have a chance to draw the tag and any time, this much is true, and very welcome for guys who do get lucky. That's great...this thread IS NOT about not putting in, not at all. There are guys around like woodruffhunter who have drawn tough tags without waiting a lifetime...it happens every year. So put in, without a doubt. We've all got a chance...

But the truth remains, and the real point of this thread...Utah is in a bad way right now. And only gonna get worse with the advent of new policies allowing non-residents to buy points for every species. Those non-resident applicant pools are gonna grow a whole lot faster than the tag numbers...and so will the resident appilicant pools, even without the new policy.

It's tough...I wonder if UDWR has any plans for finding a solution? Or is their plan to let thousands and thousands of applicants eventually just give up, or pass away, or forget the sport after filling out applications, buying licenses, and buying points for a lifetime...with the "hope" dangled in front of thier faces that they might be one of the lucky ones who doesn't wait multiple decades to draw a tag?

Something needs to change...and yeah, we're not solving the worlds problems here. This is hunting and wildlife, we all understand that. But what Utah's got going now is not good...I'm not smart enough to know WHAT needs to change, but undoubtedly something does.

 

[FamilyMan]

Sobering posts. I guess I should no longer be jealous of you Utah elk hunters.

The point has been made, but not emphasized enough, that the wildcard in all this is the wolf. When they start to take their toll the number of tags will drop and the years to wait will become so much worse that there will have to be a change in the draw system - perhaps where they allow you to start putting in for your unborn grandchild now, or bequeath your points to your kids when you die. The wolf is our enemy.


Mark

My hunting spot is so secret, not even the elk have found it yet.

 

[ELKOHOLIC]

Dillion, Hang in there. You will get that tag if thats what you want. I get a kick out of these doomsday post. I don't like the odds either, but I know enough about them that I have drawn a few tags and plan on drawing more. Some choose to put in for the top hunt in the state or at least the most hyped unit. If thats the case your in for the long haul.

backinthegame, your leaving a lot of factors out of your statistics. I'm not going to argue about it, but your numbers are off. Matter of fact there is so many things that factor in its difficult to calculate time to draw a tag. I'm just not ready to say it's going to take 59 years.

 

[backinthegame]

It's pretty hard to argue with numbers ELKOHOLIC...

...yeah, they aren't exact due to factors that can't be forecast, like increase in tag numbers or decrease in applicants for any number of reasons. Neither of those have or show promise to be significant, however.

Simple math for dillon and plenty of others in his shoes. Pahvant. He's got almost 800 guys ahead of him, and over 100 with the same number of points. There are only 21 tags per year. He's in for a giant wait, unless, like we've all said, he wins the Utah Lottery and pulls a tag out of blind luck. Which could definitely happen, but highly unlikely.

 

[EROCK1313]

I think everyone is forgetting one important date other than Draw Dates:


December 20, 2012!!!




No One will draw after that date - HA! LoL


But really, I only have 8 points but am doing what I can to better my odds at the Henry's - ARCHERY! I have only done it the last 3 years, but at least it guarantees I'm hunting something, somewhere! I would love a trophy, but in all reality; it's also nice to hunt every year and try and figure out an area and figure out those DIY Public Land animals too while I am waiting. Those hard earned animals are definitely trophies in my eyes.

If anyone wants an easier trophy process, they always have the option of paying for a Hunt of a Lifetime somewhere with a Guaranteed tag and an outfitter helping them find that trophy. There is always options.

Frankly, I am just happy to have the opportunity to hunt (even though the odds suck for Great Tags I really would like) and build up my skills for when I do draw that "Premium Hunt." The GREAT thing is, until then; I can hunt trophies all over the Wasatch with my bow or put in the hard work on other General Units.

Now that being said, I am pretty sure that 2010 is my year for the Henry's !!! (If I didn't believe, then why apply?) =)



?-ERock-> ?

 

[EROCK1313]

Strange.........I just noticed that my Post about the "December 20, 2012" was actually my post #212 - WTF!! Maybe it REALLY is my year to draw???


?-ERock-> ?

 

[2lumpy]

Bearing in mind that only the LE hunts are these hunts that nearly impossible to draw, we can still hunt on the regional units ever 2 or 3 years for deer and so far most of us can hunt elk somewhere every year. I recognized that most MM members seem to be more of the......shall we say....selective sportsmen.

Before Utah offered points, some folks got drawn three or four times for LE hunts and others that had applied for many years never were drawn. The point system was established, in part, to try and even out this issue. Keeping the "lucky" few from getting to hunt trophy's often and others never getting to go.

If you eliminated the draw all together your odds would only double ie: if it takes 200 years to draw a tag now with the current point system it would still take the average hunter 100 years to draw, because there are only a limited number of tag available and half are already on a random draw. So the question, it seems would be, would you rather have a purely random system or a split system like we have now.

Yes, if you went to smaller herd management units, manage more of the units for an older class of animal you could implement a different point system, as has been suggested in this thread, however every time you manage for older animals, fewer folks get to harvest an animal, either by tag limitation or harvest restriction of some kind.

In as much as we all differ when it comes to which system is best, we continue to stumble along with less than a satisfactory system, if there is such as thing with our divers desires.

Or so it seems to me.

DC

 

[backinthegame]

I couldn't agree more EROCK, I'm beyond happy that for now I get the opportunity to hunt general archery bucks and spike elk every year. I wouldn't trade that for the chance at a "premium" tag once every 5 or 10 years, no way.

My point of this whole thread isn't to tell people they're doomed from drawing their tag...it's to generate ideas regarding ways for the UDWR to start working throught the mess!

I too have 8 deer points...I'm still a good, long ways out from pulling that Henry's archery tag, but I should have my Paunsaugunt tag in a couple more years. 2011.

 

[sixgunn]

Taylor,

You have too much time on your hands.......get to work.
Pretty sobering post. Makes me think I got lucky this year drawing my tag.

J.C.

 

[backinthegame]

>Taylor,
>
>You have too much time on
>your hands.......get to work.
>Pretty sobering post. Makes me think
>I got lucky this year
>drawing my tag.
>
>J.C.


HAHAHA!!

You probably did get lucky...how many points did you have?? Ha, ha...by the way, nice buck. I'll bet that's good time out there!!

 

[dillon]

I know that I am in this for the long run just like anyone else. First off I don't want to draw my tag for at least the next three years because I have a bunch of college to still get through up here at Utah State. Guess what I am studying wildlife science, and then will get a masters in wildlife biology. My goal is to make a difference rather than just complaining about what goes on at the state level. I won't have time to hunt my bull for the next few years, so waiting won't kill me or my wallet! However, I do want to hunt a unit like the Pahvant with great bulls that come with a price...time. I am an avid bow hunter and if I decide that I am capable of getting a big bull on the Pahvant with my bow then I may apply for an archery tag.


Number of Tags this year on the Pahvant:

Archery:25 tags( I could draw in 2-4 years)
Early Rifle:21 tags(I could draw in 7+ years)
Later Rifle:32 tags(I could draw in 4-5 years)
Muzzleloader:15 tags (I could draw in 6-8 years)
ALL Seasons:3 tags (I could draw in...well most likely never$$$)

Total number of tags on the Pahvant: 96

Yes a lot of people put in for the Pahvant, but most give up early or move over to another unit with better odds.

I am not discourage to wait for my tag, I will wait.



Do you guys think archery is worth a try on the Pahvant?

Dillon

 

[swbuckmaster]

all you coolaid drinkers that are happy with the spike hunts just remember they will cut the big bull tags this year and mess up your odds of ever hunting big bulls.

Archery is a year round commitment!!

 

[Dahlmer]

Quick question for those of you with deer bonus points. If the state pooled the bonus and preference point systems together and you had to use your points to draw every unit, LE or general, how many of you would give up hunting utah regularly and continue putting in every year for the current LE units? How many would put in for current general season tags with the intent of hunting on a more regular basis?

 

[ELKOHOLIC]

SW, I don't think anybody was begging for a statewide spike hunt. Do you or do you not believe that more bulls needed to be taken on certain units to keep a healthy herd? If you say no then I'm wasting my time. If you agree with this then how do you go about keeping the herd in check? I think we both no the answer but there is a select few that had the power to stop this I guess.

 

[sixgunn]

Taylor,

I had six points. The hunt came and went way too fast.

 

[backinthegame]

Six points...not too lucky, that's about the going rate for the Books archery, at least for now!! ;-)

I'll be it did man, like I said, that had to be a blast!

 

[Coyote_chaser]

Mid October rifle hunts, that would lower rifle success greatly, issue more archery and muzzy tags. If you want to hunt with the easiest weapon, you should hunt the hardest season. Hardest weapon easiest season.. With 98 percent success rates adn 2 days of hunting the early rifle hunt will prevent issuing any sort of significant tags. Hell they give 500 or so rifle tags in Unit 10 in AZ which happens to kill giants, they manage for bulls per cows not age class. It wont happen though, SFW cant sale conservation tags for lots if they gotta hunt in OCT!!!

 

[schmalts]

I have 14 elk points in UT now.... what to do, oh what to do

 

[SMELLYBUCK]

Back,

You calculated 15 tags into your Pahvant equation. Dillon stated 96. Who's right?

 

[Deerlove]

Coyote aint that the TRUTH!!

 

[Wildman]

These type of issues boil down to what none of us really want to accept, and that is that we are part of the problem. The reality is that the demand is greater than the resources, and each one of us is part of the demand (part of the problem).

 

[trophyfever]

Hi Schmalts,

if you haven't drawn by now (14 points-wow)--then you probably won't (badluck or bypassed). Take a Break! Please let us(me 11 pts) have a chance before I die! ha

Hope your not putting in for my unit.
Anyway-good luck next year. We are all hooked in the point systems(not just in Utah) and must be hopefull, persistent,and cover our losses by shotgunning all the western states for all species praying for that once in a lifetime trophy tag!
ps:any bull or buck is a trophy for the hunter. I almost forgot, its the hunting experience-not just the kill. thank God, we can still get an over the counter tag and enjoy the hunting experience with our friends.
thanks fellas for all the great research and stats, I'll read them again next year!

 

[txhunter58]

I just participated in an survey they sent me. In it they state that they manage 25% of units for 6+ year class, 50% for 5-6 year class, and 25% for 4-5 year class.

That sounds about right to me, but what are they basing it on? Age of kills? If that is the case, they are probably underestimating the age class of units.

One of the choices was to move the rifle season out of the rut, and I voted in favor of that. I just think we need to figure out a way to get more oppurtunity without increasing harvest too much.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

 

[backinthegame]

SMELLYBUCK...

I used 15 tags in my equations because there are 21 total any weapon tags on the Pahvant. 10 of those 21 are "bonus" tags that are guaranteed to go to max point holders, the other 11 are "regular" tags that anyone with any number of points is eligible to draw. I used 15 as a benchmark for how many applicants with more points than dillon would draw and thus be eliminated from the draw each year. 10 bonus tags would go the the max point guys ahead of him, 5 of the 11 regular tags would also go to guys with more points than him. There are 775 guys ahead of him and over 100 in the same group as him putting in for the Pahvant any weapon hunt.

dillon used 96 tags...that is the TOTAL number of Pahvant, combining archery, muzzleloader, any weapon, and premium. I have no idea how many TOTAL applicants would be ahead of dillon combining all these hunts, well into the thousands for sure.

 

[slcmuley]

micro manage the entire state.any tag drawn should take your points for that species. thats the only way i see my kids getting a fair shake. we have got to clear out the point creep situation. i would gladly use 2 pts to huntthe so.slope elk if it meant there would be less people there and better elk. just my 2 cents the solution shouldn't have to be rocket science.

 

[SHANEWA300]

all point systems will fail!!
best one is ID, no points, everyone has a shot every year, how it should be. WA and NV have the best for point systems go, someone with 0 pts still has a chance

 

[txhunter58]

>all point systems will fail!!
>best one is ID, no points,
>everyone has a shot every
>year, how it should be.
>WA and NV have the
>best for point systems go,
>someone with 0 pts still
>has a chance

Not sure I uderstand what you are saying. Without SOME type of point system, a guy who decides on a lark he/she will apply this year has the same chance as someone who has applied for 20 years. I don't agree with that.

Some states may seem to have "better" systems (i.e. better odds) because they either have more tags available, or less people applying or both. The states you mention don't have the supply and demand problems that Utah does. Utah built a field of dreams and people did come.

And FYI, in Utah, under the current system someone who applies for the fist time (0 points) does have a shot at a tag.

So far the only ideas I have seen that make any sense to me are:
1) Make you use points to hunt even if it is not a LE hunt
2) Move seasons around to lower success rates, and thefore you can increase tag numbers.
3) Continue to build herd numbers/habitat to allow for tag increases
4) Don't give so many away for auctions/raffles.

However, even with all these things, there will always be long odds to draw a tag, especially for nonresidents.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

 

[bigmikea]

Txhunter58 Your last post is the best one yet I agrre totaly
Move hunt dates
make people use points to hunt should make sure you could hunt a good deer or elk on a regular bassis with less compatition and even our kids will have a chance to hunt.

My only two cents would be stop killimg spikes kill more mature bulls even if size drops a little.

We need to continue to improve, devlope, or buy more habitat threw sporsmens groups so we can increese herd numbers that will let us get more tags to draw.

 

[elkantlers]

Yea, lets get rid of the 12500 spike tags so 500 more people can shoot 5 points. 12000 less people elk hunting in Utah doesn't sound too good to me.

 

[whuppinstick]

>
>Not sure I uderstand what you
>are saying. Without SOME
>type of point system, a
>guy who decides on a
>lark he/she will apply this
>year has the same chance
>as someone who has applied
>for 20 years. I
>don't agree with that.
>

That's not quite how it works, at least in Washington. A person who applies for the first time does have a chance as they are given one entry in the pool. But a person who has been applying for 20 years has that number squared, so they have 400 entries in the pool. 20 bonus points in Washington gives you 400x better odds on a tag than a first-time applicant.

 

[REDDOG]

I really dont think half of you understand how Utah's points system works.

 

[txhunter58]

>
>>

>>
>
>That's not quite how it works,
>at least in Washington.
>A person who applies for
>the first time does have
>a chance as they are
>given one entry in the
>pool. But a person
>who has been applying for
>20 years has that number
>squared, so they have 400
>entries in the pool.
>20 bonus points in Washington
>gives you 400x better odds
>on a tag than a
>first-time applicant.


Call it what you want, but what you describe for Washington is still a "point" system, just not a straight up point system. However, I didn't know that is how it worked up there, so thanks for the info.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

 

[MJ]

My question is how many of you with very few points have drawn a tag before? I am sitting on 15 deer points right now. This is the first time in 20 years of applying that I actually will have a chance in 2010. I should have hunted by now, but my parents forgot to put in for my point while I was on the two year church thing. I am sure there are many people how where in my point pool who settled for something else. I have not, now I will finally get what I want. My dad finally drew the tag with 15 points. There were 3 people left in his pool. One just bought a point and is waiting on something.

 

[AWHOLELOTTABULL]

I will tell you my solution to the sobering fact of not drawing a tag in Utah. I still apply but get my hunting fix in other states that I have a shot of hunting every year or at least every other year.

It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com

 

[woodruffhunter]

"I will tell you my solution to the sobering fact of not drawing a tag in Utah. I still apply but get my hunting fix in other states that I have a shot of hunting every year or at least every other year"

That is my solution. I am just glad that there are "backup"
general hunts that I can go on.