Western Hunt Expo Transparency?

I appreciate that. I try to just do my thing Cody. But it does bother me when people claim to "know it all" when they have no clue. And than they question the credibility and truthfulness of people that were there from the start.

I guess I took the bait cause I was bored :)

My bad.




Tony Abbott
www.thebigoutdoors.com
801-885-1274
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-11-17 AT 08:49PM (MST)[p]>Lee,
>I promise you have nothing to
>worry about. You and I
>are not even in the
>same solar system on what
>reality is. :)

Cody,
On this issue, I'm pretty sure we're on the same planet on what reality IS, but we're light years apart on what it should and can be. In any case, we're reasonably civil about it, which I appreciate.
Thanks! :)
 
Actually fishon you panicked after someone slammed your butt in the door you wish your mouth could back you out of. That's why you are still lying trying to tell people you are fighting me because I claimed to know it all, which never happened.

You know it's never to late to apologize for your hypocrisy, fishon.

Do you realize you haven't quoted me truthfully yet. Signs of a desperate "expert witness".
 
"panicked" "melting down" "Lying"

Man, I must be a mere sliver of a man. Tri has accused me of these three things so they must be true. Plus according to Tri my agenda is as follows

" YOUR AGENDA IS TO STRIP THE SHOW OF THE TAGS AND PUT THEM BACK IN THE DRAW."

That is a direct Quote of yours Tri. But I guess I have not quoted you truthfully yet. HAHA

This is actually entertaining. How do you ever find time to work. Im sure like your knowledge on Utah issues you are probably the worlds greatest Taxidermist. Im surprised you dont provide all the taxidermy for the show you created, you know the Hunt Expo in Salt Lake. The one you are an expert on and started 10+ years ago and the one you traveled the state to all the public meetings and got the 200 expo tags allocated to it.

You know it was the same time you were running the Mule Deer Foundation for 5 years. Which followed the 5 years you were with SFW.

Yes that expo. I think they are changing the name to " western hunting and Tristate expo"

Bro you are impressive. Since you wont come to Utah can I come down to your place and buy you lunch. I need a photo signed


Tony Abbott
www.thebigoutdoors.com
801-885-1274
 
Don't feed Tritip. The sumbitch knows everything about absolutely everything.

You'll get better interaction if you walk outside and have this discussion with a rock.

I did hear a roll call for SFW haters.. here.




"If the DWR was just doing its job, and
wildlife and hunting were the actual focus,
none of this process would even matter.
But that is not the focus or the goal in any
of this. The current DWR regime, and
SFW were born out of wildlife declines,
and are currently operated and funded
under that paradigm. Those 200 Expo
tags would not even be worth anything if
the focus was where it was supposed to
be, and wildlife and tags were plentiful.
But under the current business model,
that is how the money and power is
generated. It is generated through the
rising "value"(monitization) of a declining
resource. A resource that is supposed to
be being beneficially managed for the
masses that own that resource, ie. US.
The problem is obvious, hedging is not a
long term sustainable strategy, and
others have to lose, for some to win. In
this case it is us, the many, and our
resources, that are being forced to lose,
because there is a minority who's power
and money is derived from our loses."

LONETREE 3/15/16
 
You can come see me anytime you want. Just don't blow your government handout doing it.

You keep talking about all your expo street cred like I should care.
 
I can't blow it Tri, It was ALL spent on advertising and promotion months ago. Would like like to see the invoices and receipts? Oh and I've dumped another $100,000 of my own into it.

But you are the one with the expo knowledge. Just go read all your posts.

Tony Abbott
www.thebigoutdoors.com
801-885-1274
 
Nothing easy about it. But it is all accounted for. But you don't care about that anyway.

Oh that was another quote of yours. You don't care about accountability.

Tony Abbott
www.thebigoutdoors.com
801-885-1274
 
Almost is me giving up on trying to get you to Utah for the all expense paid trip to The Big Outdoors Expo. I'm gonna offer one more time.

Tri, myself and several MM members are willing to pay for your trip to The BIg Outdoors Expo and get you a VIP pass. This also includes FULL access to the books and records of this event both past and present.This is your last chance. All you have to do is answer this one question. Lets see if you can do it.

Tri, will you accept my invitation to attend The Big Outdoors Expo at ZERO expense to you?

You can answer yes or no. If it is yes I will book all your travel plans and message them to you. If it is no then I must wash my hands of trying to bring you up to speed on Utah and its wildlife and transparency.

Either way Tri you get the last word. Even if you want to come back on here and make really "witty" comments about me or Hawkeye or WW or any of your other fellow MMers. You get the final word on our exchange.

I guessing that your response won't be yes or no. I'm betting it will be a really cleaver post like calling me a liar. Hawkeye, Robo, or either io the WW's. YOu care to give me odds on Tris response being more than 1 word and not getting a yes or a no?

I see a huge money making opportunity for me here and it won't even be a handout :)

Tony Abbott
www.thebigoutdoors.com
801-885-1274
 
H E double hockey sticks no. I have zero interest in going to your show. Like I did say before I have zero interest in your "books".

You are still welcome to spend all that money and come see a really great taxidermy shop.

I am looking at maybe coming to the big show this weekend in SLC since it looks like I won't be killing coyotes.
 
>"Survival award" is Brilliant
>
>And I think a lot of
>people would stand in line
>to help fold Tri's parachute.
>
>
>This is the 'EXPERT WITNESS" checking
>out
>
>
>Tony Abbott
>www.thebigoutdoors.com
>801-885-1274


Can I fold the 'chute, I may put a few stitches in it too.
 
>H E double hockey sticks no.
> I have zero interest
>in going to your show.
> Like I did say
>before I have zero interest
>in your "books".
>
>You are still welcome to spend
>all that money and come
>see a really great taxidermy
>shop.
>
>I am looking at maybe coming
>to the big show this
>weekend in SLC since it
>looks like I won't be
>killing coyotes.

You dont even have a taxidermy shop. Stop lying through your teeth. YOu dont need to lie to act cool in the hunting crowd.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-13-17 AT 08:09AM (MST)[p]"You dont even have a taxidermy shop. Stop lying through your teeth. YOu dont need to lie to act cool in the hunting crowd."

I am pretty sure I do. Maybe you have me confused with someone else. You are welcome to come visit it also. I quit worrying about looking cool a long long time ago.
 
I hesitate to jump into this.... not sure what to call it. However, I think it's worthwhile to point out that there are those in this state who question. Those who understand that, constitutionally, wildlife is a state's right. The wildlife of Utah belong to, and are the responsibility of, the citizens of the state.
Without a doubt, the state (meaning all Utahns) have the authority to utilize hunting opportunities as a means of revenue. We should be clear that it is the citizens of the state who hold this authority. Not RMEF's, MDF's or SFW's. We, the people, hold the power and, by our grace, allow these organizations the opportunity to auction or raffle our permits. Likewise, the DWR, Wildlife Board and other state officials serve US. It seems, occasionally, all benefit by being reminded of this.
Having said this, I would suggest that it is responsible for any citizen of Utah to question how our public resource is being utilized. Questioning the efficacy of 70% of proceeds being diverted for managerial purposes, policy and salaries is absolutely legitimate.
Every Utah citizen, not only sportsmen or hunters, should question this and expect, not only transparency, but results benefiting the state. We may debate where proceeds are used for the benefit of the state; i.e. habitat, transplants, land acquisition, education, health care.... but there should not even be an argument regarding if revenue should go back to the state vs somewhere else.
The reality exists: there are those organizations and individuals employed by those organizations that directly or indirectly benefit through the sale of permits. Be it increased membership enrollment at banquets and auctions or availability of funds for salaries, they are on the teat of wildlife. It is only logical that they would want to protect the hand that feeds them.
Let's hope that they understand that they are in no way entitled to this benefit. At any point, the people of this state (most likely through the voice of sportsmen) can petition the Wildlife Board and ultimately the legislature to change how things are done. The only question remaining is if this should be done.
Checks & Balances: As a group, in my opinion, Utahns are quite conservative and, in so, expect efficiency and conservation from our representatives. This starts with transparency. Most of us understand that their are expenses involved with what Non-Governmental Organizations, such as SFW, RMEF & MDF, do. It, therefore, seems wise to seek an accounting of the public resource. I'll generalize here but most sportsmen and women that I know are grateful to NGO's for championing wildlife conservation and happy to contribute and participate in the process. They simply want to know they are getting the greatest bang for their buck (pun intended).
I, for one, will certainly start to question the integrity of any NGO who is benefiting from a public resource when I am told that I am not intelligent enough, knowledgeable enough or informed enough to understand the issue and therefore should not be asking questions.
I like the EXPO. Simply my opinion here: The Expo brings great people who share a common interest together. It brings commerce to our state and enhances the outdoor and hunting industry. It was, at least an attempt at providing some standard to how these permits are used to benefit wildlife.
I'll finish on this note: Let's apply a little capitalism to the issue. Transparency and accountability will allow the citizens of this state to make an informed decision regarding their resource. If another NGO or process can return more than 70% of revenue back to wildlife and ultimately generate more revenue, only a fool would want things to stay the same. The organizations that claims to be advocates for wildlife and conservation should be the loudest voices in this cause.
 
It always ends the same way

592651297691146560original.jpg
 
>LAST EDITED ON Feb-13-17
>AT 08:09?AM (MST)
>
>"You dont even have a taxidermy
>shop. Stop lying through your
>teeth. YOu dont need to
>lie to act cool in
>the hunting crowd."
>
>I am pretty sure I do.
> Maybe you have me
>confused with someone else.
>You are welcome to come
>visit it also. I quit
>worrying about looking cool a
>long long time ago.

You dont have a taxidermy shop and we all know it. You cant even prove it.

And when were you ever cool? You have to start before you can quit.
 
Okydoky. Go right ahead and think that way.

I never said I was cool. I just said I quit worrying about it. Must have been about third grade.

Grow up Robiland. There's no first prize for crazy.
 
Just like it always begins the same way NVB. Every year you look at your dwindling draw odds. Then you see the big expo is coming up and you and the SFW haters start doing your butt hurt annual cry-a-thon again.


Whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine.
 
>Okydoky. Go right ahead and
>think that way.
>
>I never said I was cool.
> I just said I
>quit worrying about it.
>Must have been about third
>grade.
>
>Grow up Robiland. There's no
>first prize for crazy.


Can you prove you are a taxidermist? See, you cant answer any questions, just deflect.
 
>Your a special kind of crazy.
>
>
>I guess after awhile the smackdowns
>take their toll.


Cant handle your own crap can you. LOL!!! Im out. Have a great one!
 
Only a true internet troll jackass like pigboy would take this so seriously that he thinks he's putting a "smackdown" on someone. Truly pathetic.

and 73 to the rescue in 3 2 1....
 
Weird. I've never been to the expo but I will go someday. As I have told you several times I have no dog in the fight. And neither do you. I don't whine about their tags. I just like watching, and helping, you make an ass out of yourself. I also don't whine about my draw odds. Thats because, unlike you, I understand what drives those odds, what the real options are to improve them, and I recognize and admit I won't trade what we have for better draw odds.
 
Puffy,
Rescue? Why are you still posting? I think we established that you are only an internet biitch and nothing more. Helll at least a troll has some backbone. Why you still running your mouth if you aren't willing to back it up?
 
Denial. It ain't just a river in Egypt. I totally understand the people that tell lies to each other. Not condone but understand. But to lie to yourself???? Like Robiland you are turning into a special kind of crazy.

Honestly if your transparency argument held any water whatsoever do you really think you would spend the last five years getting shut out and calling some taxidermist in Texas a bunch of names???? Its like Fishon. If he was such a great and wonderful person do you think he would have to remind yall with every single post? Yall are living in a childish fantasy.
 
Let me know next time you're in Utah or I'll let you know next time I'm where ever it is that you hide behind a screen.
 
Puffy,
I didn't say you had to come in I said that's where I'll be all week. You let me know when you show up outside and I'll be more than happy to come out and chat.
 
LOL, you guys are so cute with your internet threats. I wish we could all meet up someplace and let all these badasses go at it. I would pay good money to see that. Maybe we should organize somthing, and then we can donate 100% of the funds to benefit big game critters... oh and pheasants need some love too. This same crap comes up every year, I wish something would be done. Atleast SFW is doing something, although they do seem to have the UDWR in there pocket. 30% of the tag application money is B.S. all of that money should go back to the state. Then they can divvy out the rest, booths funds, entrance fee's, etc.
 
Sure Muley, I'll let you know when I show up then you and all your buddies, boys and your dad can come out and have a chat with lonely ole me. You're a real tough guy aren't ya.
 
No not at all. I'll come out and chat all by myself. I just wanna chat about you talking shittt on my kids. They not in this fight and who are you to drag them into it?????
 
Yeah the state shouldn't have to pay people for services rendered, Fullthrottle. You nailed that one. Maybe cops shouldn't get paid either. Game wardens should do their work for free. I like this idea of free labor. What should we call it? Oh wait it already had a name and over half a million people died shutting it down. I think it was called slavery.
 
Don't do it to start with. You run your mouth and never have anything but cheapshots. I get that your one of those guys on the internet. But learn to draw a line. If you can't come up with something better than to take a shot at my kids then keep your mouth shut. I'm no tough guy by any means but certain things are off limits. The fact I have to call you out about that to start with ought to be embarrassing. You don't know me and I don't know you and you sure as hellll don't know my boys other then apparently looking at them on IG. You wanna take shots at me feel free, but you wanna take a shot at anyone's kids try being a grown up that was raised with a little manners and don't.
I'll still be at the expo all week if you'd like me to explain it in person.
 
Wow you are a dandy tristate. Wasn't saying that. If you read my post they should have plenty of money from the $$ for the tickets to get in the door and the cost to set up a booth to cover there overhead. I know one thing is for sure they don't need 70% of the profit from the tag applications.
 
Wait a minute fullthrottle, you said this.

"30% of the tag application money is B.S. all of that money should go back to the state."

That means they get no fiscal compensation for completing a contracted job for the state. You didn't argue over a shared percentage you specifically stated "all of that money should go back to the state." That is very specific. SO YES YOU WERE SAYING THAT. Now I like how you decide you know how the door should cover their overhead. There isn't a single convention that I have ever been to where the entry fees cover the overhead.

Utah400 go back and read his post he isn't talking about transparency he is talking about the state being entitled to private labor at no cost to them. PERIOD.
 
You would be correct. I don't think SFW should be entitled to the money that comes from the state of Utah's public tags. The tags are a huge attraction for people to come to the expo, without the tags the expo wouldn't be squat. So SFW gets major exposure from selling utahs public tags. No they shouldn't make money directly off the tags, Utah and its wildlife should receive that money. There payment from the state is the "exposure" "their" organization gets from these tags being available at "their" expo. The money made from the rest of the expos festivities should be divided how they see fit. But not utahs public tags. That's just my opinion, according to you I am way off base and that's fine everyone has different views. That being said I don't know what it takes to run an expo, but I damn sure believe the states wildlife deserve a hell of a lot more than 30%, that seems pretty one sided to me. Rant over, I'm out.
 
Can someone provide a single logical argument for wildlife not generating revenue for both the state and the private sector?
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-14-17 AT 08:04PM (MST)[p]>Can someone provide a single logical
>argument for wildlife not generating
>revenue for both the state
>and the private sector?

If you believe that's true, can you provide a single logical argument for that revenue not to be maximized for both the state and private sectors? Isn't that competition a cornerstone of capitalism?

Why should the government choose a lesser organization to generate less revenue than a competing organization with nearly 17x the members? I thought your whole point was using wildlife to raise revenue, but you seem to support a group that wants to raise far less money by reaching a comparably tiny audience with tired tactics. Don't you want the new, much larger, group to raise even more money off those tags?

I thought you supported the private sector, but it seems like you don't want open competition and would rather revenue from wildlife not be maximized and the winner to be chosen by the government instead of free market.

Grizzly
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-15-17 AT 09:32AM (MST)[p]The Big Outdoors Expo is giving away a Honda side by side this year. As well as a Fort Knox Gun safe, some whitewater fishing trips and a few other nice things. All attendees that choose can enter on one of the Ipads I have at the show for no additional cost.

Meaning if you come to the show and pay to come in the exhibit hall which is $10 for a 2 day pass and you can get a $2 off coupon online you can enter for all these great prizes for no additional charge.

Why do I do this you ask? Its simple, more people will attend the expo because they have a chance to win a great trip or item for simply attending.

So lets compare this to the hunt expo. If you apply for the tags and then go and validate them in person "which is a requirement" chances are you will also buy a ticket to the exhibit hall and go walk the floor. THis of course was part of the plan when we created the tags and expo (to get more people to attend by requiring them to validate in person).

Now the price for the ticket is $20 and you can find a $10 discount coupon at several of their sponsors places or online. I believe they said over 30,000 people attend. TImes that by lets say even $10 and you have an additional $300,000 in revenue minimum.

How many people attend and buy tickets because of the tags? IN other words the tags themselves just by being there generate a lot of money at the gate that they would not get if there were no tags.

This is why I give away items at my show. It gets more people there to pay the entrance fee to the expo. It is a marketing tool that I use and it works.

The hunt expo is no different. How many of the thousands or so that apply for the tags every year would not go to the expo if the tags were not there?

SO there are many many benefits from the expo tags. there is no question that show attendance would be significantly less if they had no tags to give away.

SO yes, the benefit of the expo tags reaches further than just the revenue off the application, it adds to the ticket take and the amount of people at the show and the business of the floor which makes vendors more happy and food sold etc. The traffic allows them to charge a premium for booth space as well.

THE TAGS ARE THE ATTRACTION. Otherwise it would be just another hunting show.

So the benefits go FAR beyond the application revenue.


Tony Abbott
www.thebigoutdoors.com
801-885-1274
 
Here let me quickly...

So Tony, let me ask you this (any stupid question inserted here)

And while we are at it (any stupid statement here)

And finally Tony (any feeble attempt to bait you inserted here)

Tony you are a lying hypocritical whiner with a 3rd grade education & full of SFW hate! And a bunch of blah, blah, blah freaking blah.

Seriously though - you have done a great job with the Expo. Hunter & I will be there, I'm sure we'll see you sometime.

Clint
 
It might all be a wash as far as heads through the door if they didn't have the tags. Look at the five guys on here that say they won't go to the expo until the 200 tags are put back in the draw. :D
 
Tri-State, I think it is safe to say that you really like to start a debate as a hobby. Its cool. For some reason I am drawn to the debate and enjoy reading all the drama as it unfolds. I also believe your passion for the debate sometimes outweighs common sense. I have a hard time thinking you really believe some of the things you are saying. We all know that conservation takes money to accomplish. We also know that the more money you can provide, the more conservation can be accomplished. Kind of common sense I would think. Am I wrong?? So with that said, lets use this as an example....
1. Our beloved Utah has a bid... They are going to offer up 200 animals to Tri-State Taxidermy to be mounted up (Tax Payers will pay for the cost of the mounts) and raffled off to all that would like to buy a raffle ticket for $5.00. Tri says he will then give back 30% of the money from the raffle tickets. The other 70% he needs for ???? of $1 Million dollars in raffle tickets sold, Tri will give $300,000 for conservation efforts.

2. Utah then offers up the same 200 animals to ANY OTHER Taxidermy shop to be mounted up (again, Tax payers will pay for the cost of the mounts) and raffled off to all that would like to buy a raffle ticket for $5.00. The other shop says they will give back 100% of the money from the raffle tickets. They dont want any money for ???. Of the $1 Million dollars in raffle tickets sold they will give back $1,000,000 for conservation efforts.

Hmmmmmmm. Going back to the common sense of.. The more money you have for conservation projects, the more you can accomplish in conservation... I think its pretty cut and dry to why there are passionate people out there that think 30% is a joke when others are offering 100%. Tri- I know you like to argue for the sake of arguing, but how is there any response that can justify why a change shouldn't be made?? Utah is missing out on potentially $700,000 in money that could be used for conservation. Of course there is an uproar about it. Again, we are passionate about OUR wildlife.
 
Well OpeningDay, you missed one . in the first ellipsis in your third paragraph... therefore you will be called a whiney liar and scolded for not answering the question and expecting people to work for nothing.
 
Openingday,

I appreciate how simple you try and make it. The problem is, it's not that simple.

To give you an idea people call me on the phone all the time and ask "How much to mount X"? I tell them. Their next statement is "Well another taxidermy shop says they will mount it for less". Very often I tell them that they are under the misunderstanding that me and that taxidermy shop are doing the same thing.

Just like them you are making the false assumption that there is only one variable in the business models of RMEF and SFW. The truth is there are lots of different variables between these two companies. Some of these variables are shared, with differences, between these companies, and some variables are unique to that specific company.

This is a FACT that you must accept and others on here will not. THERE WAS NOTHING IN THE BID SUBMITTED BY RMEF THAT GUARANTEED THE GROSS PAYMENT BACK TO UTAH, at %100, WAS AS MUCH AS THE GROSS %30 SFW HAD PRODUCED IN THE PAST. No guarantees whatsoever. None. We can guess and wish and argue but that remains a fact.

And that is only one variable in the bid. ONLY ONE. That is also a fact. The reason for choice is based on multiple variables besides the %30/%100 argument. THAT IS ALSO A FACT.

Now I have kept all emotion out of this post and strictly discussed business. I don't think poorly of you for posting that idea. It is just an underdeveloped business logic.
 
Tri-State,
Thank you for the response. I completely understand what you are saying. I understand the "you get what you pay for" theory and I fully believe in it. I am sure there were many variables in the decision process. Maybe SFW is the best entity to run the expo?? They have many exhibitors and I think the expo is a great show. Would there be no expo without the tags?? Is there a reason the (200) expo tags cant be done by the State of Utah in the name of Conservation. Hell, they can do it right in the same hallway they do it in now. You already don't have to pay the $10.00 entry fee and walk the expo to validate your expo tag apps. Why do the tags have to be incorporated with any Conservation Group?? You are probably right, there are no guarantees on anything, but you must be up in the night if you think the tags in the hands of ANY other organization would gross 70% less than what SFW has produced in the past. That is completely ridiculous. I really think you could put a 10 year old in a lemonade stand with these (200) tags and it would generate the same $$ it would in the hands of any Org. I really cant see how you think the SFW name has anything to do with the sales of the tags? Maybe you can elaborate??
 
OpeningDay-

You are right on point. Under Tristate's theory and the DWR's analysis no other conservation group will ever win the Expo Tag contract? Why? Because they put some much emphasis on certainty and historical facts that they refuse to consider the fact that other much larger groups with much larger memberships and a proven track record of hosting much larger events and who promised to return a much larger % to conservation and who promised complete transparency would almost certainly generate more money for actual conservation projects. In tristate's mind the anlaysis is as follows:

SFW/MDF - 30% of $1,000,000 = $300,000
RMEF - 100% of $0 = $0
$300,0000 is more than $0
End of story!

If the state is going to use that type of naive reasoning then what is the point of even sending the contract out to an RFP. Nobody besides SFW/MDF have hosted that actual event and, therefore, nobody else can present the same level of proven historical certainty and track record in administering the tags. Don't waste the public's time with a dog and pony show. The reality is the groups and the DWR know this whole thing is a farce. If they really felt comfortable about pocketing 70% of the proceeds from the Expo Tags then they would not have added the ridiculous language in the latest contract stating that the remaining 70% is spent on "programs, policies and personnel to benefit wildlife" . . . but there is no reporting or auditing requirement. Just trust us! It is all a big smokescreen to try to get sportsmen like us off their backs. SFW and MDF should just come out and say that we keep 70% to fund our group, pay our overhead expense, pay our employees, lobby the state to resist calls transparency and accountability, lobby for multi-million dollar contracts for our affiliated-organizations, AND TO BUY PENCILS.

-Hawkeye-
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-15-17 AT 04:48PM (MST)[p]Openingday,

This post now is full of assumptions which confuse the issue. First I wasn't talking about this, "you get what you pay for", at all. I am talking about completely different businesses under completely different variables of business, will offer completely different products. It is inevitable, and the Hunting expo is a product. As a result grosses and margins can and most likely will also be much different. One of these two companies has much more precedent than the other with this show. Doesn't mean they are better. That just means they have more numbers and evidence to back up their projections. The state has to give that significant weight when making a bid.

To answer your question, no, I think the state of Utah could handle their own raffle. Do I think it is better that it be done by a secondary group at an expo, Yes. Like I have said in previous posts , the tag distribution model as it is being used now, is good for including people outside of hunting in the fiscal benefits of the hunting world. If you want hunting to remain for years to come we must show it has value beyond just us hunters. DO you know right now the largest anti-hunting organization in the world, USFWS, is requiring people who apply for an African Lion import permit to prove on their application that the money from the lion hunt benefited local non-hunting communities? That's your government right now already requiring you to give them a good fiscal reason they should give anyone a permit. However as far as the DWR running the raffle at the same time in the same building I am not sure of the legal restrictions involving that. It could be fine but it could be conflicting to existing contracts.

As far as less gross for the tags it isn't completely ridiculous. My other point is there were many more variables to this bid than %30 or %100, so the fact that these guys have been hung up on that one variable for two years IS RIDICULOUS.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Feb-15-17
>AT 04:48?PM (MST)
>
>Openingday,
>
>This post now is full of
>assumptions which confuse the issue.
> First I wasn't talking
>about this, "you get what
>you pay for", at all.
> I am talking about
>completely different businesses under completely
>different variables of business, will
>offer completely different products.
>It is inevitable, and the
>Hunting expo is a product.
> As a result grosses
>and margins can and most
>likely will also be much
>different. One of
>these two companies has much
>more precedent than the other
>with this show. Doesn't
>mean they are better.
>That just means they have
>more numbers and evidence to
>back up their projections.
>The state has to give
>that significant weight when making
>a bid.
>
>To answer your question, no, I
>think the state of Utah
>could handle their own raffle.
> Do I think it
>is better that it be
>done by a secondary group
>at an expo, Yes.
>Like I have said in
>previous posts , the tag
>distribution model as it is
>being used now, is good
>for including people outside of
>hunting in the fiscal benefits
>of the hunting world.
>If you want hunting to
>remain for years to come
>we must show it has
>value beyond just us hunters.
> DO you know right
>now the largest anti-hunting organization
>in the world, USFWS, is
>requiring people who apply for
>an African Lion import permit
>to prove on their application
>that the money from the
>lion hunt benefited local non-hunting
>communities? That's
>your government right now already
>requiring you to give them
>a good fiscal reason they
>should give anyone a permit.
> However as far as
>the DWR running the raffle
>at the same time in
>the same building I am
>not sure of the legal
>restrictions involving that. It
>could be fine but it
>could be conflicting to existing
>contracts.
>
>As far as less gross for
>the tags it isn't completely
>ridiculous. My other point
>is there were many more
>variables to this bid than
>%30 or %100, so the
>fact that these guys have
>been hung up on that
>one variable for two years
>IS RIDICULOUS.

Read that last paragraph again
Think
Now reread that last paragraph again

Many variables

CRONYISM
SFW/MDF controls DNR/UDWR
CRONYISM
 
Tristate,
a couple of questions..

I believe the ultimate goal of the Expo is to NET as much money possible to put back into conservation projects. Our wildlife need help and this is a great tool to provide the money for that help.

1. Do you think SFW is the most efficient avenue to produce the most money to put back into conservation?? It doesn't matter if you hate/love SFW or not.

2. I understand that there is nothing to compare to as no other organization has had their shot with the Expo. That argument is dull.

3. Why do you think SFW is so closed up on their transparency and where all that $$ is going?? If what they are doing is on the up and up, why not shut up all the nay sayers and shove them books in their face. Do you honestly think they are directing that money towards wildlife??

Utah is one of the capitols of the world when it comes to Pyramid schemes. Whether it be a fitness gel, Noni juice, whatever. The guys at the top put together a model to get rich while the minions at the bottom funnel that money up. To me, this is similar to what is going on with the expo. I believe it is pretty probable that people are getting rich off the Expo tag money. That has to be the only logical reason for not opening the books. In my opinion anyways.

Tristate, In the sake of civil debate, please shed some light on the questions above without vague answers of comparison. We all know there is nothing to compare to as SFW is the only organization who has had a shot with holding the Expo. Thanks
 
DO I think SFW is the most efficient avenue? I don't know. More than likely they are more efficient than some and maybe not as efficient as others. That's a whole other ball of wax we could argue until hell freezes over and never get a truthful answer.

Why do I think SFW is so closed up? First I don't think they are as closed up as these people like to whine about. There is some transparency there but these guys want more. As for reasons why. Maybe they actually like spending money on important things instead of paying CPA's and attorneys to produce documents in an attempt to satisfy people which many believe will never be happy. Maybe they would rather spend their time on other things besides answering six million questions about whether this person deserves this salary or whether the office really needed a new laptop.

I sit on the board of a non-profit. In the past eight years we have done more than the previous two decades the non-profit existed. All officers and board members are %100 honest and devoted to the cause. We spend over fifty percent of our time covering questions regarding spending. It is actually beyond ridiculous. We are %100 transparent. We get hassled over our documentation not being in the format or media someone wants. We get hassled over essential purchases. We get hassled for paying necessary legal fees. We get hassled over not being transparent about things which we are required by law to not be transparent about. :D etc.... I have a board meeting next Friday. I have to travel four hours there and back. I pay for my own Hotel. I will lose two days of work. I promise you %80 of that board meeting will be answering stupid questions stemming from our openness and honesty. We will probably only spend %20 of our time devoted to bettering things for our constituency. I'll probably get told how I am getting rich off of being on the board although I have literally never received a single penny for being a board member and they can see it because we are %100 open. I GUARANTEE PRODUCTIVITY GOES DOWN THE MORE TRANSPARENT A NON-PROFIT GETS.

Now I haven't been vague, and I'm %100 straight with you.

As for this statement,

" That has to be the only logical reason for not opening the books. In my opinion anyways."

Try not to think so negatively of the people around you.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-16-17 AT 12:17PM (MST)[p]Im picking up what you are putting down and I thank you for your honesty. I also cannot say with certainty that any other Org could do any better with this Expo, but I do think that others should get the chance. Ultimately, I believe our wildlife deserve every opportunity we can give them. Which in my opinion means trying every avenue until the best product is produced. Which in this case would be the most net money being produced for conservation. Seems logical to me. I am sure there are many that feel the same way, no matter if they are pro SFW or not. Some boycott, some do not agree with SFW, but will still attend. I will attend, I will apply for the tags, I will also stop by and say hello to my friends Doyle Moss and Ryan Hatch. If they happen to be around. Some will cringe by the thought of that. I don't think any of these things make me less of a sportsman or any less passionate about the well being of our wildlife. I just truly believe that any org that has the resources to put on this expo and the tags that go along with it, should have the opportunity to show what they can do. Maybe 2 or 3 year contracts and then a 2 or 3 year waiting period. Hell, we have a 5 year waiting period after pulling an elk tag. Haha. Give everyone their shot. You can almost guarantee that the competition would bring out the best in these Orgs and the Ultimate winner after all the dust settles would be OUR wildlife.
 
I hear what you are saying but I think the best way you could introduce competition into the mix is by other orgs getting other states to do similar programs. Then they will get experience and refine these distribution methods where they can be more efficient. Also when these tags come up for bid other orgs can show experience on how they can do a better job than the incumbent.

I have said repeatedly on these forums, why hasn't RMEF started lobbying another state for a show deal with 200 tags there? Pick Montana or Arizona, or any other western state. Make a track record that specifically shows what they can do. Why give up just because you didn't get Utah? If you believe you can do better then make it happen somewhere else.

Good luck at the show.
 
The RMEF is a habitat conservation group. For years they have not been involved much with politics, protecting hunter rights, predator control,feeding programs, etc.
They have done some good projects and are a national organization.

They hold banquets, raise some money, around 30% stay local and about 70% goes to MT. They have some good sportsmen who volunteer.

SFW is a political wildlife organization, that figured out, that raising 30-40K at banquets through out the state isn't generating enough money, to do what is needed to improve wildlife populations, and rehab enough habitat to make a difference. Generate money for underpass for migration routes, fence highways,$500,000 for coyote bounty, pay for Moose and deer collaring studies, to find out the problems. Pay for studies to see what can be done with sage grouse, so they won't be put on endangered list.

Pass prop 5. Get spring bear hunting back. Protect trapping and other predator control, etc.

3 million for fish hatchery repairs.

Record transplants with many species.

You get the idea.

SFW although I don't agree with everything they have done, has by far done more hunting and wildlife than other organizations in Utah IMO.
 
>I hear what you are saying
>but I think the best
>way you could introduce competition
>into the mix is by
>other orgs getting other states
>to do similar programs.
>Then they will get experience
>and refine these distribution methods
>where they can be more
>efficient. Also when these
>tags come up for bid
>other orgs can show
>experience on how they can
>do a better job than
>the incumbent.
>
>I have said repeatedly on these
>forums, why hasn't RMEF started
>lobbying another state for a
>show deal with 200 tags
>there? Pick Montana or
>Arizona, or any other western
>state. Make a track
>record that specifically shows what
>they can do. Why
>give up just because you
>didn't get Utah? If
>you believe you can do
>better then make it happen
>somewhere else.
>
>Good luck at the show.

Hey Tristate are you going to the expo
 
No big secret, I'm not a fan.

Sad thing is, I was a fan. The year $fw started, there was a lot of push on construction sites for them. Seems us construction trash do a lot of hunting and it was a logical place to hit up guys to join. I never have been a "joiner", so I did not. However I did donate some money. That continued for a while. Then, Prop 5. Which I think is still perhaps the biggest thing done in hunting in this state, perhaps ever. To their credit, and for a younger org $fw was all over this. They helped organize, they advertised, they lobbied. And, I will always give them credit for it.
But I started noticing, much like the NRA does, there seemed to be more and more "emergency, send us some money to save the deer" newsletters, advertisement, etc. The expo, in in infancy, was pretty cool, and to be honest I never thought much about the tag situation.
Then, as I was reading a lot, I started to notice, THE DON, was "around" a lot. Seemed like his name was popping up all over in State politics. Karl Malone started making it known that he pay massive ammount to kill one of those bucks out on AI. There seemed to be a shift, away from the hunters in the state, towards a select group of hunters in the state. I attented the expo, and it had gone from a Utah thing, to an all out trade show. It had become nothing more than a collection of guides, trying to out gladhand each other for the high rollers. Again, not a bad thing necessarily, but FAR from the "utah sportsman getting a voice in the DWR" $fw had set out to do. The circle of fanboys surrounding Doyle, was perhaps one of the saddest things I have ever witnessed. It was, and is, a BIG SCHLONG CONTEST. I did enjoy the usual suspects, with there women in the skin tight jeans with the girls hanging out, but, it was amazing to see. I quit going to the expo.
That brings us to today. I havent been to the expo since the year before Spidey was released out of the game farm(cool your jets, even I don't believe that BS). I simply refuse to hand over my money to groups that work against me. I don't deny the average $fw does good work. I don't deny they are in it for the right reasons. BUT, they also shouldn't deny that in order to do so, they hold their nose, and cover their ears to what $fw is doing. They are not for public access, they have proven that over and over. They are not for expanding BIG GAME HUNTING. They were the driving force in the huge tag decreases. Notice when that subject come up its always "you can buy a spike tag OTC. Its never, we need more open bull units at the expense of LE. They are not for, and in fact lobby against the average, Utah hunter having a voice in the DWR. You need only look at who sits on the WB to see that. They are, a conduit between big money interests, guides, and the state. AI proved that. They have changed completely from a grass roots, voice, for Utah hunters. No ammount of PR, or BS changes the facts. SO, IMO, since they no longer represent the whole, they should no longer be able to profit from the wholes money, AKA tags. Im afraid, however, that ship sailed. The cancer is so deeply entrenched, its hard to seperate DWR and $fw. They seem to be becoming one, which was exactly 180 degrees different from what $fw started out as.




"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
>No I am not. I
>wanted to go but I
>have way too many irons
>in the fire.


So let me get this strait you do not live in Utah you do not attend the expo but you spend countless hours on the Internet acting as if you know everything about the situation.

You sound like a cheerleader a cheerleader that doesn't even dare show up on the field but spend most of your time in the locker room behind closed doors i.e monster muleys.

Just like wade lemon I am sure sfw could care less about who you are. and get pissed about how bad you make their organization look by your stupid out of touch with reality posts. How do I know this because it's a fact here in the state of UTAH so keep your sorry trolling up me I am headed to the expo see ya
 
In case you were wondering I have been to the expo before and I have quite a few customers there now.

Desertpointbrian,

you spent way to much time on that post.
 
>In case you were wondering I
>have been to the expo
>before and I have quite
>a few customers there now.
>
>
>Desertpointbrian,
>
>you spent way to much time
>on that post.


Not near as much time as you have making a clown of yourself and dragging sfw's name through the mud. Go away believe me they don't want you to try and defend them
 
DPB,

I feel so disillusioned. I can't believe it took you telling me that for me to finally see the light. Wow I'm going to pay up my RMEF life membership and build a statue of Hawkeye that I worship everyday. ;D
 

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