What has happened to hunter's judgement?

Tristate

Tristate

Long Time Member
Messages
8,883
Last week while guiding antelope hunts I walked in the bunkhouse and found my client watching a hunting show on the television. I had just finished cutting up a big antelope for his son. The television show he is watching was called "Pure Hunting". Now I don't follow this show but I think a while back I saw one of these shows where they were bow hunting mule deer I think. But this show was two men bow hunting mountain goats I believe in the state of Colorado. So in the show one of the characters stabs this mountain goat in the back with his arrow poorly and it runs off. They spend a day looking for it and find it again and some how determine he isn't hurt that bad, AND DECIDE TO KEEP HUNTING DIFFERENT GOATS! We rewind the shot with the clicker. Time and time again we watch the shot. Although the shot is not immediately lethal we are pretty sure the goat died an agonizing death over several days. By the end of the show these two mo-mos have gone and killed another goat.

So I ask yall what is more damaging to wildlife and heard management, I guy that puts down a wounded elk for a friend and only one tag is used on one animal, OR TWO IDIOTS STABBING MULTIPLE ANIMALS TO DEATH ON ONE TAG UNTIL THEY CAN GET ONE THEY CAN RECOVER?
 
Depends Tri?

On the Elk Hunt was there a 6X7 & a 7X7 Bull shot?

I don't know exactly what happened?

Them 2 StickFlippers need their Asses Kicked!

I Think the MM Wardens will warm this Thread up!




Go Ahead!

Make Me take it down!

9001hank2.jpg
 
elk,

I am not trying to dive deeper into the other thread. On the other thread it became obvious that some people posting did not care about personal judgement, ethics, or conservation. All they care about is the letter of the law and the animals be damned. So I asked a question FREE OF THE OTHER THREAD, which of these two cases AS DESCRIBED SOLEY IN MY POST, not the other thread. I want to see these people defend one persons LEGAL actions which were horribly destructive to a limited and finite resource in comparison to a hypothetical in which two men working together fill a SINGLE TAG WITH A SINGLE ANIMAL, and do no more harm to the heard than the DWR had already deemed acceptable.
 
Wow, that was a lot of references (and assumptions) to another thread in which you do not want to discuss the other thread.

The problem is you are confusing moral ethics with black and white law, they don't always lead you down the same path. Have you ever heard the saying, one bad apple will spoil the whole bunch? This is why we have many of the laws we currently have, some people are always trying to get something for nothing. In Utah you are no longer able to find and pack out a deadhead. Why? Because a few people figured out that if they shot a buck, hung it's head in a tree for a few months and then went back and picked it up they could say it must have died from natural causes. You also can't party hunt anymore. The situation you described without wanting to talk about is impossible to enforce across the board. How can you determine if an ethical person put down a suffering animal or is a poacher just shot a 400" bull and then claimed it was sick? That is a very slippery slope from a law enforcement prospective Tri.
Sadly, in the world we live in today, those who try to do the right thing will often be punished because of the actions of those who want to do the wrong thing. I think given the opportunity, MOST people will do the right thing, but there are always those who wont and will take advantage of those who do.

Rut
 
Tristate is like the pedophile waiting outside the school in the brown panel van offering candy it will be interesting how many of you will succumb to the bait.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-14-15 AT 08:03AM (MST)[p]Rutcrazed,

You dodged the question completely. Which of the two presented scenarios does more damage to conservation efforts and which do you see as unethical?

Cornhusker,

How did the candy taste?
 
Obviously the situation in which more than one animal was taken will have the potentially biggest impact on the herd, BUT, do you know for a fact that the wounded animal was going to die? I don't have the resume that you have (tens of thousands of animals killed), but I have seen more times you can count on your hands an animal killed during the rifle season that had some kind of archery or even firearm injury that was completely healed over. Animals are very tough and resilient to injury. I have seen 3 legged deer and elk running with herd without missing a step, deer with claw mark scars down their back, deer and elk with only 1 eye, pheasants and chukars missing toes or feet. The animal you see suffering today could be dead or thriving tomorrow, your judgement doesn't determine it's fate.

Rut
 
>Tristate is like the pedophile waiting
>outside the school in the
>brown panel van offering candy
>it will be interesting how
>many of you will succumb
>to the bait.


Yep I took the candy, wont do that again.
 
Thankyou for answering the question. So you know what the state is leaving legal is allowing less ethical behavior and mor destructive behavior to occur well more ethical less destructive behavior is being punished. Second to your argument about the animals that live I can guarantee that survival of animals shot with centerfire weapons is extremely low and exceptionally rare. Regardless of that why should it be left to chance in a situation where YOU would know the animal would have a single tag put on it from the hunter who shot it initially WHY WOULD YOU CHANCE THE ANIMAL DYING A SLOW DEATH AND NOTHING BE UTILIZED FROM IT? That is wasteful and illogical.

Your last sentence states this.

"The animal you see suffering today could be dead or thriving tomorrow, your judgement doesn't determine it's fate."

Our judgment determines the fate of every beast on the land. We manage, control, and manipulate all of these animals in some way or another. SO to think that you can put a bullet in one and then back away and forget about it and you are no longer part of its fate is both illogical and irresponsible.
 
I'm a little bored this morning waiting for the rifle opener this weekend. Soooo, unfortunately, I'll bite.

In the Mountain Goat scenario, you are assuming the first goat will die. If that is the case, then I agree with you that those hunters have taken more from that Mountain Goat herd than they should. While one goat may not cause a dent in the population, obviously I would prefer that they only kill one goat, as they were licensed to do.

As for the elk scenario, while your logic regarding the ultimate killing of only one animal with one tag, within the management plan for that herd put forth by the DWR seems to have some weight, I have to disagree with that logic. Using that same logic, any individual not having a tag could go into that unit and kill as many bulls as they want, so long as it was within the DWR's management plan for that herd. If the DWR gives out 20 tags and expects a 100% harvest rate, but then only 16 bulls are killed, any individual without a tag could logically kill 4 more bulls without hurting the management plan/herd for that unit.

Both situations are a detriment to wildlife and the reputation of us sportsmen. You should not wound animals and then go after others, and you should not leave your hunting unit and allow someone else from your party to kill your animal for you.

"Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!" 2 Ne. 28: 24
 
There is a dance we do to stay on the right side of the law and also follow our moral compass. Usually the two will be the same but not always.

Back to the goat thing; the behavior SHOULD be criminal for someone to knowingly pass on an animal, which they have already wounded, for the sole purpose of high-grading the trophy.

It will always be difficult to legislate morality! Most guys get it right but some guys never will.

I find it reprehensible that a trophy would be wounded and then passed-up for the purpose of hunting a different animal. These guys are clowns, not sportsmen!!!

Zeke

PS: tri, I know that didn't answer you question directly and I don't really care. ha
 
Wouldn't the logical and responsible action be to follow up on every animal that YOU have a tag for and have wounded and end it's suffering, not push this responsibility to other parties?
This sounds like the scenario of a little kid asking for a puppy and then expecting the parents to take care of it for him. Do not accept the responsibilities of obtaining a limited entry tag if you cannot fulfill them yourself.

Rut
 
Tri,

I'll bite because I don't have much going on right now. This is your question:

"So I ask yall what is more damaging to wildlife and heard management, I guy that puts down a wounded elk for a friend and only one tag is used on one animal, OR TWO IDIOTS STABBING MULTIPLE ANIMALS TO DEATH ON ONE TAG UNTIL THEY CAN GET ONE THEY CAN RECOVER".

Now the vide you described was archery hunting or are they actually "TWO IDIOTS STABBING MULTIPLE ANIMALS TO DEATH". From your statement it would appear that you don't like archery hunting and or you don't understand it. You do realize there is a difference between archery hunting and "STABBING" animals?

Again from your post you say "we are pretty sure the goat died an agonizing death over several days". You are "pretty sure" but that is an assumption. You don' know for sure.

Also, in the Utah Poaching thread there is a witness that two bulls were shot and killed and one person used another's tag to tag the bigger of the two bulls.

Now to your question...To me it is worse to have multiple animals die for one tag. To me, it would be hard to argue the other way.

However, on the Utah thread you have two stories. One wherein a witness says these clowns shot two bulls and never looked for the first because they heard about a bigger bull. The claim is that the hunter never even went to the area to see if he hit the bull. He sent his kid. Is that reasonable for the tag holder to personally not even follow up on his shot? The probable cause statement posted says they shot two bulls with one tag, lied and left one bull to rot. The PC statement also reports that "Late in the evening of 9/15/2014, and after shooting hours had ended, members of another witness' hunting party heard various shots fired." So it sounds like two bulls were killed by two guys with one tag with the second bull being shot after shooting hours. Then there is the statement form a mysterious person who says this was a mercy killing.

So, which is worse? A single tag holder hitting an animal that might die and then deciding to take a different animal or a two guys who use the same tag to kill two animals?

I have been put in a position where I had to put big game animals down (both deer and elk) in Utah. In each instance, I called the Utah Highway Patrol (they dispatch for the Utah Game and Fish officers), told them where I was, the situation I had and the course of action I was planning to take. I then put the animals down. I have been asked to meet with game wardens following these incidents. I took them to the location, explained the situation, explained my actions and that was the end of it.

That is, in my opinion, is how the situation should have been handled. Instead they chose to lie and try to cover up that the guy who killed the elk didn't have the tag.

By the way...

http://forums.bowsite.com/tf/bgforums/thread.cfm?threadid=446917&messages=13&forum=5

I need to get the location of this bull so I can make sure he doesn't have an "agonizing death over several days". Do you think I should post pictures of my kill on Instagram and lie to investigators about my mercy killing when confronted?
 
Utah400,

If you insert an edged weapon into flesh you "stab" it. That's what arrows do. We just speak different lingo so don't assume I am anti-archery hunting.

As for the goat dying, no I am not sure it died. After all I have not thought of the fact that aliens cruse the galaxy in a mobile veterinary flying saucer rescuing kidney shot goats off of mountains and rehabilitating them.

Also in the Utah poaching thread which I have told yall I have tried not to incorporate into this thread, There was no witness to two bulls being shot by one hunter. Go read the report please. As for you talking about two different stories on the other thread that is why I came over here and started a new thread with ONE HYPOTHETICAL.

ANd then you ask this question.

"So, which is worse? A single tag holder hitting an animal that might die and then deciding to take a different animal or a two guys who use the same tag to kill two animals?"

This is an attempt with a completely different set of assumptions to hi-jack the thread which I started.

As for your personal experiences putting animals down I am glad those worked out wonderfully for the benefit of the suffering animal. Its good that apparently you live in a perfect world. I'll go ahead and tell you in 90% of the places I hunt there ain't no calling the cops. There ain't any telephones or signal for phones.

As for your picture of the injured elk thanks for sharing. I always love unique images like that. However its apples and oranges. I believe a broken elk point in the side of the head is as lethal if not more than a centerfire rifle as long as you can make the antler point travel 3000 feet per second.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-14-15 AT 02:44PM (MST)[p]Wow! Archery hunting is now stab hunting. Who knew?

Aliens fix injured animals...cool.

In your discription of he video you talk about one shooter but that quickly becomes two idiots stabbing multiple animals. So you are prone to exaggerations. Good to know.

Also if you read the Utah thread the claim from the witness is that the tag holder shot a bull and it died 450 from the spot his son shot a 7x7. Two hunters, two Bulls and only one tag.

And finally,,,So you are accusing me of hijacking a thread? Pot, pot this is kettle over.

Carry on
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-14-15 AT 02:46PM (MST)[p]The "witness" never said he saw two bulls get shot. Go back and read. Regardless this isn't a discussion about what that situation so go take your argument over there.

Who's thread did I hi-jack? On the other thread I talked about the evidence provided. When I wanted to alter the subject I started a new thread. Looks like your wearing this one kettle.

I also find it interesting that in your previous post you want to question my judgment over whether the goat was going to die but your judgment is perfectly fine when you see wounded or injured animals. I guess you know better than anybody else???
 
>Obviously the situation in which more
>than one animal was taken
>will have the potentially biggest
>impact on the herd, BUT,
>do you know for a
>fact that the wounded animal
>was going to die?
>I don't have the resume
>that you have (tens of
>thousands of animals killed), but
>I have seen more times
>you can count on your
>hands an animal killed during
>the rifle season that had
>some kind of archery or
>even firearm injury that was
>completely healed over. Animals
>are very tough and resilient
>to injury. I have
>seen 3 legged deer and
>elk running with herd without
>missing a step, deer with
>claw mark scars down their
>back, deer and elk with
>only 1 eye, pheasants and
>chukars missing toes or feet.
> The animal you see
>suffering today could be dead
>or thriving tomorrow, your judgement
>doesn't determine it's fate.
>
>Rut

A 3-legged deer or elk not missing a step? My math says they would miss one in every 4 steps.
 
If a Well endowed bull were to drag his dink in the dirt because of an injured limb...would that count as an extra step.
 
Utah400,

Just because I don't agree with a majority of posters on a thread or you don't like my opinion doesn't mean I hijack the thread.

Grosevenhunter,

Why do you care what other people respond to on a thread I started???? How old are you?
 
I know, right??? I learned about 1 year ago to not respond.

So...any good hunting pics anyone wants to share?
 
Really Robiland? Two weeks ago you were crying I ruined your mule deer story and I never even posted on your thread.
 
Tristate, if you watched the whole show Willi recovered his goat before,his buddy who also had a tag shot his.They recovered Willi's goat and the meat, spent a lot of time and effort on the recovery. I have areal problem with all these T.V.hunters mgun or bow shooting all these animals just before dark and then leaving them over night. Must like the taste of tainted meat.
 


Here is a cool buck I found. I hope he wasnt left behind because he was too small. He was actually a good sized buck. I rough scored him out at 165. Fun hunting Nevada.
 
"what is more damaging"

It doesn't matter which is more damaging. Either are damaging and neither is acceptable.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-15-15 AT 03:30AM (MST)[p]To answer the thread's title; antler, horn and skull inches have become more important to many more hunters than the hunt and/or the welfare of the animal and/or the welfare of the herd and/or the meat!
 
You make a great point there elkfromabove.

Has this magnified the hate in which other hunters feel for someone charged with poaching to an unreasonable level?

30 years ago most of the people I ever met that poached a buck did it for some meat. Most people I know had done it at one time or another and nobody really was socially persecuted for doing so and getting caught.

Jump forward three decades and you have a slew of people who want to ruin a mans life over putting down a wounded elk???? Is this the rewards for the idolatry in which you speak?
 
Bigmoosie,
I watched the show. They left the goat. They specifically stated they left the goat to hunt a different one. I think you are referring to part 1 of this rodeo where they wounded lost and recovered the first persons poorly shot goat before this one.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-15-15 AT 12:14PM (MST)[p]>You make a great point there
>elkfromabove.
>
>Has this magnified the hate in
>which other hunters feel for
>someone charged with poaching to
>an unreasonable level?
>
>30 years ago most of the
>people I ever met that
>poached a buck did it
>for some meat. Most
>people I know had done
>it at one time or
>another and nobody really was
>socially persecuted for doing so
>and getting caught.
>
>Jump forward three decades and you
>have a slew of people
>who want to ruin a
>mans life over putting down
>a wounded elk???? Is
>this the rewards for the
>idolatry in which you speak?
>

It has changed a LOT of things! In Utah, there are harsher penalties for shooting a trophy animal than there are for shooting a non-trophy animal. There is more enforcement of party hunting, there are more laws and programs centered around the trophy aspect of hunting (Limited entry hunts, CWMU's, Conservation tags, EXPO tags, 30 unit hunter management, guides and guiding services with their regulations, tag reductions, higher buck to doe ratios and age objectives and shortened seasons, to name some of the direct changes.) There are also some indirect changes and some ongoing efforts to make further changes primarily centered around the trophy aspect. Certainly, not all of these changes are detrimental to the health of the animals and/or herds or to the majority of hunters. But just as certain, they're not all beneficial either.

I believe what you're seeing is some backlash from hunters who see these changes and aren't enamored with them. (And, frankly, it's the majority of the hunters.) By your response, I think you're assuming that those opposing you are trophy hunters that are upset because those guys allegedly illegally shot 2 of "their" trophies with only one tag. But, in reality, (at least in my case) your opposition comes from the fact that you're defending the alleged poachers by questioning our manhood, degrading women and chiding us for not being willing to break the law ourselves. The trophy mentality is what drove the hunters to the alleged poaching, but it's not what's driving your opposition. Quite the opposite, I'm sure!
 
Elkfromabove,

My opposition stems from people's failure to use logic. I can't put it any simpler than that. It is the same broken logic that makes you put on her that I am "degrading women". The trophy mentality isn't what drove this shooter to do this. The trophy in no way belongs to him. It belongs to the father so what does HE receive by recovering the trophy. Again you have thrown logic aside.
 
>By the end
>of the show these two
>mo-mos have gone and killed
>another goat.


Tristate, can you define "Mo-MO" Please?
 
> Although the shot is
>not immediately lethal we are
>pretty sure the goat died
>an agonizing death over several
>days.

"that's a personal judgment by you" - Tristate
 
Yes exactly elevenbravo. Just like Utah400 and the game warden I can make a judgement call. Just like you or anyone else here. That is my point. However there are some tags and resources which are so finite people need to move past their greed for horns and decide the wounded lost animal WAS MY TAG. Whether there is an arrow in his kidneys or a bullet through his toe. Once you draw blood in this day and age you are done hunting. The remainder of the hunt is recovery of the wounded animal. You can't manage a heard properly if people are killing more animals than they have tags for.
 
>Yes exactly elevenbravo. Just like
>Utah400 and the game warden
>I can make a judgement
>call. Just like you
>or anyone else here.
>That is my point.
>However there are some tags
>and resources which are so
>finite people need to move
>past their greed for horns
>and decide the wounded lost
>animal WAS MY TAG.
>Whether there is an arrow
>in his kidneys or a
>bullet through his toe.
>Once you draw blood in
>this day and age you
>are done hunting. The
>remainder of the hunt is
>recovery of the wounded animal.
> You can't manage a
>heard properly if people are
>killing more animals than they
>have tags for.

What if you don't have a tag for an animal?
 
Then you don't have a tag. That's doesn't mean you throw away good judgement and conservation practices.
 
I saw that show with the Mt. Goat. Should have never made it on TV.
Not sure what the status of his tag was, but, it would have been better if he finished that goat with a rifle.

I have seen animals that have survived better hits than that though.
 

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