When do you own you deer?

Trammer

Trammer

Active Member
Messages
327
From a legal standpoint can anyone tell me at what point a hunter actually owns his deer? The state clearly owns the animal when it is in the field. The hunter clearly owns it at a later point and is free to sell his trophy for example.

Additionally,does a taken animals legal status divide? Does the state retain legal ownership of parts of the animal? Like the meat?
 
A person owns the animal when he/she tags it. Unless it is taken illegally the State wouldn't have anything more to do with it than checking to see that it was legally taken. Some jurisdictions will not allow the sale of any parts, including horns/antlers of an animal even if it was taken legally.
 
Topgun, would that not suggest that the state doing so was acting outside of their authority? I mean if an animal is lawfully taken, and if a tag is a sort of title. Wouldn't any state that makes and enforces laws that dictate what may be done with the various parts of the animal after legal harvest and tagging be acting outside of their jurisdiction?
The state clearly has the authority to decide the what, why, how and when animals may be taken. Because the state owns the animals, when the animals are on the mountain.
 
>Topgun, would that not suggest that
>the state doing so was
>acting outside of their authority?
>I mean if an animal
>is lawfully taken, and if
>a tag is a sort
>of title. Wouldn't any state
>that makes and enforces laws
>that dictate what may be
>done with the various parts
>of the animal after legal
>harvest and tagging be acting
>outside of their jurisdiction?
> The state clearly has
>the authority to decide the
>what, why, how and when
>animals may be taken. Because
>the state owns the animals,
>when the animals are on
>the mountain.


I've never read that a state allows you to "own" the animal. Once tagged, you "take possession" of the animal and certain rules continue to apply by state/jurisdiction which you agree to as a holder of a hunting license and tag which you sign. At least that's the way I understand it. I'm interested in where you're going with this thread!

GK
 
>I've never read that a state
>allows you to "own" the
>animal. Once tagged, you "take
>possession" of the animal and
>certain rules continue to apply
>by state/jurisdiction which you agree
>to as a holder of
>a hunting license and tag
>which you sign. At least
>that's the way I understand
>it. I'm interested in where
>you're going with this thread!
>GK

I was thinking the same thing! There are laws that you have to continue to abide by once you "take possession" of the animal. I think that those laws HAVE to be in place or it will turn the sport even more commercial than it is now.
I am also very curios where this thread is going..why don't you just say what your problem is??
 
I'm with you guys! I figured this would turn into a commercial hunting/use game to turn a profit issue.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-02-12 AT 02:53PM (MST)[p]I knew where he was going with this as soon as I read his post. He's using the word "own", so I went along with it. Generally it is referred to as "take possession" of the animal when you tag it. Some jurisdictions consider what was mentioned when a person "mortally wounds" an animal, but many say it's actually who recovers the animal and takes possession. If it was a perfect world, anyone who kills an animal that is hurt badly and someone is tracking would give the animal to whomever hit the animal good, especially when bow hunting due to the length some animals can go before they bleed out. This guy trammer is about as anti government and anti law enforcement as you can get and I figured he would say about what he came back with. Anyone that responds to this thread contrary to his thoughts will probably receive some kind of idiotic rejoinder similar to what he has already made in response to my post. Read this thread if you don't think this guy is way out in left field and that is trying to be polite! He starts in on us with his BS in post #32! It finally got shut down by Founder or a Moderator when he made a correlation between two members and the Nazis!

http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/DCForumID8/4877.html
 
Topgun, I am not anti government nor anti law enforcement. I do think law enforcement in this country is currently out of control. Proof of this lies in the truth that 7.2 million Americans are in prison in this country. By far the highest rate on earth. Not something I am proud of as an American. I do think law enforcement needs to be refocused on right and wrong simply because what is legal and illegal does not work anymore.Some of the best examples of law enforcement being out of control exist in wildlife conservation law enforcement and I do have a wealth of experience with conservation law enforcement.Perhaps More accurately called pseudo Conservation Law Enforcement.
Topgun and GK, if all we do is "take possession" then why can you sell it? Or shouldn't you then at least be required to give the money to the state if you do? Is it really legal to sell something that you do not own? Topgun, ask you direct questions that you rarely seem to answer.
 
There are plenty of other examples of the law enforcing restrictions on that which a person does own. Misuse of chemicals, use and sale of a legally owned "automatic" firearms, growing of marijuana (which can be technically legal under various restrictions, though would be cost prohibitive for most applications), etc...

You take possession of the animal, but are restricted from wasting the meat. Do you define that as ownership? We possess many things without license or certification of ownership. You may donate the meat, but may not sell it. It is a legally old concept. History dictates that when given too much latitude pertaining to what they may do with their kills, enough hunters abuse the resource to endanger it.

Most who kick severely against the law are somewhat pro-anarchists. Ironic, in that they no doubt would be the ones eliminated first from an anarchist society. People naturally gravitate (as groups) to restrictions that exist to protect and/or benefit a majority.
 
Brad, i have a feeling of your intentions in your post..
in regards to your statement...

"Proof of this lies in the truth that 7.2 million Americans are in prison in this country. By far the highest rate on earth. Not something I am proud of as an American"

IMHO when a hunter is given the opprotunity to harvest an animal especially a MTN GOAT or WILD SHEEP and they pack out only the head and a small amount of meat they have disrespected that animal and BROKE THE LAW.....that my friend does not make me proud to be a HUNTER.....it gives us all a big black eye and feeds the fire of non-hunters

society in general dictates we act in a certain way, laws are placed for the general good of the public.

if anything that i agree with you is that game wardens, especially in UT are in general lacking in ethics and not out to serve the public. I know there are few good ones in UT but they are the exception.....i have had VERY good interactions with COLO, NEV, WYO and especially MONT wardens....UT they look for something to charge you with....the others i found to serve the public along with enforce game laws



How to start an argument online:
1. Express an opinion
2. Wait
 
I hope this thread isn't allowed to last as long as the other one did. I haven't forgiven or forgotten the acusations made in the other thread.
 
Whenever somebody complains about law enforcement it always makes me think about complaints about drivers?

Anybody who drives slower than you is an idiot (i.e. when cops make an arrest or write a citation the cop is an idiot) and whenever somebody drives past you they are a maniac (i.e. the cops don't make an arrest or issue a ticket they are lazy or incompetent). Either way they can do no right in some people?s eyes. It seems to be that way with Trammer. When the cops do something they are idiots and infringing on his rights. I don't have the energy to check, but I would be willing to guess that he has complained about lazy cops as well.

I will also say that there are idiots and maniacs amongst cops. IMO Trammer is itching for a fight and is going to argue with anybody who doesn't agree with him?

I am glad that Game and Fish (i.e. the state) puts limits on what can be done with big game animals. I can only imagine the number of people who would be willing to poach an animal and sell the rack, gall bladder, etc. of animals they now OWN.
 
Hey TopGun,

Thanks for the reminder trip down memory lane with Trammer. Won't get sucked into another Trammer "vortex"

Suffice it to say that I disagree with Trammer's line of reasoning and leave it at that......

"Seacrest OUT"
GK
 
FLEH, I am not going anywhere with this thread. I have just always had some basic questions about conservation law and enforcement that have never been answered. This forum seem perfect for asking them. I am not following you as to how hunting would become more commercial if there were not regulations to follow after the take. What problems do you see arising?
 
Thank you everyone for the comments, I agree please lets not restart the B Joe Coy thread. Though I did hate to see it go. I think Topgun tapped out just when it started getting interesting.
Utah400elk, no one said a poached animal was lawfully owned. Are you saying that we dont own the deer heads above our fireplaces?
Treedagain I agree with you on the respect for the animal point, as long as you dont lose track of the respect for the person. I agree that wasting any game meat is a very unethical thing to do. I am not sure if sportsman would take any fire from Nonhunters if all laws pertaining to post harvest were abolished. Surveys have shown that the majority of Americans (who do not hunt)support hunting and hunters rights at an amazing 72%. furthermore I do not see any general good that comes from these laws. Additionally for the second time would you please come out of the shadows and Identify yourself for me.
Shummy, I apologize if I offended you but if you read the post I received a barrage of personal insults prior to even semireturning them. Even in the Nazi comment I did not personally insult you, Topgun or anyone else. I called your attitude, not you Nazi like.
NMWB, under the good example you give, isnt any potential endangerment of the wildlife already addressed in the Quota? How does the species suffer any affect by what happens to the animal or its parts after the take?
 
Shummy (1114 posts)
Jul-02-12, 04:14 PM (MST)
12. "RE: When do you own you deer?"

I hope this thread isn't allowed to last as long as the other one did. I haven't forgiven or forgotten the acusations made in the other thread.

***You and me both Bro, but the only way that will happen is if nobody else responds to him because nothing you say makes him happy. He**, on the other thread he likened two members to Nazis and badmouthed me and my profession when he doesn't even know me or what I did all my life, so why should we respond again and let him continue!!!
 
Trammer there are alot of things you won that you really don't. I can guarantee 99% of MMer's don't own the mineral rights on "their" property. This is the same type of thing. You own the deer mount but you don't own some of the "rights" associated with it.

You own your car but you don't have the right to do whatever you want with it. There are plenty of other examples....
 
"isnt any potential endangerment of the wildlife already addressed in the Quota? How does the species suffer any affect by what happens to the animal or its parts after the take?"

Human nature. As stated, history indicates that when a profit is to be made, an increase in compromised law and ethics follows. The laws that decrease the ease by which animals can be used for profiteering, don't eliminate it from happening, but decrease the ease by which it can happen and thus the overall rate it happens. Profiteering, by the way, may be in the more traditional monetary form, but also can be in terms of prestige profit--explaining the awful rate of poaching of trophy animals.

I don't think any laws eliminate abuse of resources. The nature of antisocial and narcissistic thinking in criminal types will ensure that. Laws do have the potential to decrease abuse by those sitting on the legal/ethical fence.

Laws set some limits on what I can do with my animal after I have killed it. I can live with that. Laws set some restrictions on my truck in terms of emissions, ongoing licensing, speed limits, etc... I can live with that too. Because laws tend to be built on ethics and ethics are of a personal nature, people naturally run into laws they don't like and laws they do like.
 
Trammer,


Ifn' Y'all got some time ta answer this here question I'd appreciate it.

Who owns the what, wheres, hows, and whens to life ifn' we don't and who owns us ifn' somebody does?

Ifn' I was divorced, the ex-wife would prolly own most of me stuff,

Wait, I think I just answered my question to you......Women own ever thing.
 
>"isnt any potential endangerment of the
>wildlife already addressed in the
>Quota? How does the species
>suffer any affect by what
>happens to the animal or
>its parts after the take?"
>
>
>Human nature. As stated, history indicates
>that when a profit is
>to be made, an increase
>in compromised law and ethics
>follows. The laws that decrease
>the ease by which animals
>can be used for profiteering,
>don't eliminate it from happening,
>but decrease the ease by
>which it can happen and
>thus the overall rate it
>happens. Profiteering, by the way,
>may be in the more
>traditional monetary form, but also
>can be in terms of
>prestige profit--explaining the awful rate
>of poaching of trophy animals.
>
>
>I don't think any laws eliminate
>abuse of resources. The nature
>of antisocial and narcissistic thinking
>in criminal types will ensure
>that. Laws do have the
>potential to decrease abuse by
>those sitting on the legal/ethical
>fence.
>
>Laws set some limits on what
>I can do with my
>animal after I have killed
>it. I can live with
>that. Laws set some
>restrictions on my truck in
>terms of emissions, ongoing licensing,
>speed limits, etc... I can
>live with that too.
>Because laws tend to be
>built on ethics and ethics
>are of a personal nature,
>people naturally run into laws
>they don't like and laws
>they do like.

GREAT ANSWER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Trammer,

I was pointing out that some states have put limits on what can be done with game to try and prevent the monetary gains of poaching. You are welcome to donate your trophies to whomever you want. The ?OWN? comment was an attempt to point out that once a big game animal is in your house there is almost no way to determine if it was lawfully taken or poached.

As many have pointed out, there a numerous examples of items that are owned that have restrictions on what you do with them. I am sorry that you can't see ANY general "good that comes from these laws".
 
Thank You for the great comments. I do think the verbage that confuses people and caused TopGun to flipflop is the word possession. Possession being used in conservation criminal law goes way back as a practical matter. Without the word possession oldtimer poachers caught with an illegal deer in the back of a truck could simply evade prosecution by saying nothing or saying "thats not my deer", thus requiring Law Enforcement to establish all of the elements of the crime.Including who actually shot the deer.It rightfully tied most wildlife crimes to possession and made things simpler and easier for everyone.I do not think that the word possession being part of most wildlife law, changes the fundamental ownership question.Does ownership of the animal transfer from the state to the individual as a result of hunting?
I submit that it does. The hunter owns his deer upon lawful harvest and tagging. That much conservation law should be done away with because of this fact. Laws that are not based on real, results oriented conservation are not in the public interest and function only as infringements on the rights of hunters and revenue generators for the courts.Something Claude Dallas and Tom Jefferson would both agree on.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-21-12 AT 03:14PM (MST)[p]Brad, do the people you guide for know of your lack of regard/respect for current game laws? or your views on wanton waste/poaching?

I "submit" that you have a right to your views, even though i do not share them. but i have the right to think your not running on all cylinders and that your views are pretty much polar opposite 99% of the MM crowd.

How to start an argument online:
1. Express an opinion
2. Wait
 
I don't have a problem following any of the game "Laws". If I did I would try to lobby a change (the American way). What are your problems?
 
this Trammer character is a guide. He is an international Outfitter. He is an International Hunter. He is nearly done with his North American Super Slam. He is Grand Slam #911.He is the first Utahn to finish his Grand Slam at age 36 without any finacial assistance of anyone else. He is a Member of Utahs first 3 generation sheep hunting family. He is a professional Hunter.He is a member of countless conservation and hunting fraternities.He has hunted Africa, New Zealand as well as Mexico a dozen times and Canada several times as well as Alaska 7 times.He joined Utah FNAWS before he had ever even hunted sheep in 1992 and is officially member #21. He is by far the most experienced Bighorn Sheep guide in Utah with 122 Hunts. He is the only Utah Sheep guide with 100% success rate. He spends 100 days a year hunting and scouting, he has participated in about 500 big game hunts.
Most importantly,he always follows the local laws whether or not he agrees with them. AND he has never done anything disrespectful of Wildlife, Conservation, The Land or any other Sportsman.
 
Amazing that a guy with those kind of credentials could write what you have in this and the B. Joe Coy thread!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-23-12 AT 07:45AM (MST)[p]Attention MM Members: Please read these links regarding trammer aka Brad Turner, especially the first one for conviction by an Alaska jury in 1995 for wanton waste of four caribou!!! I guess this explains why trammer doesn't care for the G&F Departments and law in general too much! It doesn't look like his peers in Utah care much for the way he does business either, seeing as how the other two links show he was called into their office for hearings on various outfitter/guide indiscretions in Alaska (1995), Nevada (2002), Utah (2005), and Wyoming (2008)! Now we know the real truth and he's one big liar with game law violations all over the place. Ten years loss of hunting priviledges in Alaska and five year probationary status in Utah are amongst the penalties that he received. It's amazing what you can dig up on the internet if you have a little time and information to do searches with. His telling how great he is actually gave himself away with a little googling here and there. It looks like ole trammer has some splainin to do, LOL! I guess this proves the old adage that you can run, but you can't hide!!! Oh, the power of the internet!

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/...H-MAN-OF-WASTING-BIG-GAME-ANIMALS.html?pg=all

http://www.dopl.utah.gov/licensing/minutes/2010/hunting_guides_2010-07-06.pdf

http://www.dopl.utah.gov/licensing/minutes/2010/hunting_guides_2010-04-06.pdf
 
Evidently the State of Alaska has an interest in caribou AT LEAST until all the meat is removed from the field.:)

Oh, those pesky game laws.

Trammer, you make me sick.

Eel
 
Trammer's posts remind me of something I heard from a lawyer once:

When you have the facts, pound the facts!
When you have the law, pound the law!
When you have neither, pound the table!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-23-12 AT 09:53PM (MST)[p]"Most importantly,he always follows the local laws whether or not he agrees with them. AND he has never done anything disrespectful of Wildlife, Conservation, The Land or any other Sportsman"

wow...if there ever was a false statement made on MM...this is about the worst...



i "submit" he has a little "splainin" to do....

still pisses me off that he compared me to HITLER...so to that end i have 2 words to say to him and it aint HAPPY BIRTHDAY...

How to start an argument online:
1. Express an opinion
2. Wait
 
It is a simple answer, you own a gun, it is yours correct. Until you shoot someone with it and then it becomes evidence. When they seized your items Trammer it was called evidence. The courts get to decide what is returned or forfieted, pretty simple concept. Evidence comes in the form of poached animals some times, think about it,

Rich
 
You know TopGun. I have a wealth of experience with Wildlife Law enforcement. Little to none of it has been just. Why do you think I would make the comments I did about B Joe? I spoke from first hand experience.You have my permission to tell everyone anything you wish about me. I would prefer if it were true. My response to you posting the Alaska article is to say that it was my lifes best learning experience. It was a false conviction. Any one is welcome to ask me anything they would like about it or any other court case I have been involved.
 
Trammer,

The provided links show that according to the minutes from the Utah division of wildlife you chose not to follow the rules because it was easier for you. Given that, do you still stand behind your statement "Most importantly,he always follows the local laws whether or not he agrees with them. AND he has never done anything disrespectful of Wildlife, Conservation, The Land or any other Sportsman."

Your claims don't appear to hold water. False conviction but you were found guilty by an Alaska jury?

What happenend in Nevada?

Are all the Utah issues false as well?
 
Our prisons are full of falsely convicted rapists, murders, drug dealers, and the list goes on and on....I am also convinced that for every charge or conviction most criminals have 20 other violations that were never discovered. Probably not Trammer.
 
Trammer please explain how you were falsely convicted in alaska? id love to hear it, did they go out of their way to make it seem you wasted 4 caribou? id love to hear your story.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-24-12 AT 06:26PM (MST)[p]You guys probably didn't see this post that he buried up above earlier this afternoon. He's just one poor, innocent guy that has been unjustly accused and convicted in four different states by various G&F departments and a jury in the case of the Alaska wanton waste charges! Funny he says below that it was his life's best learning experience and then he goes right out and violates laws in other states where he was also falsely convicted!

Trammer (43 posts)
Jul-24-12, 02:28 PM (MST)
38. "RE: When do you own you deer?"

You know TopGun. I have a wealth of experience with Wildlife Law enforcement. Little to none of it has been just. Why do you think I would make the comments I did about B Joe? I spoke from first hand experience.You have my permission to tell everyone anything you wish about me. I would prefer if it were true. My response to you posting the Alaska article is to say that it was my lifes best learning experience. It was a false conviction. Any one is welcome to ask me anything they would like about it or any other court case I have been involved.
 
as far as the DOPL minutes, I am not sure why they used the word "easier" not to follow the rules. The better word would be impossible to follow the rules. Just like in the Coy case all I could do was be fully qualified for a land use permit and make application. The BLM then should issue the permit in a timely fashion. In my case 4 months prior to the dates of use was not timely enough for BLM as they invoked an obscure law (one of those that was not made by elected officials)not to deny my permit but simply not to act on it as the silly law that they were following required outfitters to apply for use permits up to 23 months in advance of use.It is impossible for me to issue myself a permit as was it for Coy. If a person is charged, pleads guilty too or convicted of; Failing to do the impossible,should they really be held up for judgement and community condemnation?
Additionally I believed I was completely compliant with all laws because I was licensed to guide the four hunters in the other half of the unit by Glen Canyon. I had all my hunters agree to an addendum to their hunt contract that acknowledged the licensing issue and even noted times when we crossed jurisdictional boudaries and changed status from being paid to unpaid. There was no wrongdoing, only an attempt work work with a hodgepodge of junk or dysfuntional laws
 
Additionally I believed I
>was completely compliant with all
>laws because I was licensed
>to guide the four hunters
>in the other half of
>the unit by Glen Canyon.
>I had all my hunters
> agree to an addendum
>to their hunt contract that
>acknowledged the licensing issue and
>even noted times when we
>crossed jurisdictional boudaries and changed
>status from being paid to
>unpaid. There was no wrongdoing,
>only an attempt work work
>with a hodgepodge of junk
>or dysfuntional laws

so trammer your ATTEMPT to do an end around the laws is to go from "paid and unpaid"....so if they paid (hypothetical) 7000 for a 7 day hunt did you give them money back for the time spent in areas you were not licensed???


How to start an argument online:
1. Express an opinion
2. Wait
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-26-12 AT 05:31PM (MST)[p]From the Board minutes:

Wyoming 2008 documents.
A detailed discussion ensued regarding the
circumstances around all charges. Mr. Turner
admitted, even though he knew he needed Special Use
Permits in 2002, he chose to not comply with the
requirements, due to it being easier to not comply.
Mr. Bronson explained he was involved in the 2002
case, and questioned Mr. Turner, regarding
falsification of the kill sites. Mr. Turner explained he
had admitted to the general area of the kill sites.
Mr. Woodard seconded by Mr. Wayment made a
motion, due to the number and the deliberate act
behind the charges, to place Mr. Turner on a five year
probationary license with the following restrictions:
?h Submit letters from five (5) clients here in
Utah documenting their experience; and
?h Copies of the clients Hunting Agreements
and appropriate special use permits, for each
of the five (5) clients.
The motion carried unanimously with Mr. Bronson
and Mr. Justensen abstaining.

*** Thus it appears that not only was he knowingly operating with out the proper license, but also falsified where animals were taken by his clients so that he would not get caught. It appears from the minutes that he got caught anyway trying to cheat the system. The way game tags are issued for certain animals that are closely monitored for kill rate, this again makes me feel that trammer has no regard for the animals or the law if they were taken from one area and reported as taken in another! As dishonest as it appears that he was, what if they were not even within the unit where they could legally take an animal with the tag they had? With everything demonstrated by his posts and then reading the facts, it is hard to listen to a word the guy puts out. Listening to him, he's an honest, reputable guy and is just being persecuted in four different states on multiple charges that were all trumped up, LOL! Yea, right! Sounds to me like this guy is not only an habitual offender, but an habitual liar who doesn't know truth from fact because of telling so many! Just violate the laws on the books if they don't happen to come up to your liking is about the way it sounds. Just sayin!!!
 
WB---Reading that post of his with all the excuses and blaming it all on everybody but himself when he is caught violating the laws that he thinks are all against him sounds like a little kid. He knew he needed the permits to hunt a certain area and then comes up with some lame BS about keeping track where he was and they weren't paying him when he took them where he shouldn't have. A person like him always has an excuse that it's always the fault of someone else instead of themselves. I wonder what the excuse is for taking the caribou antler out first when Alaska law says the meat goes first all the time and he was convicted for wanton waste. According to him that was another bogus conviction when a jury heard all the evidence and he was found guilty. Maybe he'll come back and give us some more BS on that one next!
 
Treedagain, my hunts sell for a fixed amount. A 5 minute hunt is the same as a 30 day hunt.So no partial refund would ever be given. The lawyer that reviewed the arrangement with the hunters said that it was perfectly legal. You need to remember the BLM caused the whole mess. #1 By passing a dysfuntional (up to 25 month) rule in the first place. #2 selectively applying it. Some outfitters got their permits issued overnight, others waited 1 1/2 years.Seems the people who made the law did't think much of it either. They were free to break it as they wished. Hold some to the rules and not others. Shouldn't everyone be required to play by the same rules?When the BLM breaks its own 24 month law and issues an outfitter a land use permit overnight, why shouldnt the agent be charged with the same crime? The BLM agents having discretion is the problem. That was the problem in the Coy case as well.
You need to remember that the hunters are licensed to hunt the whole unit and may hunt with whoever they wish, provided no money is paid.They are free to hunt anywhere they wish. Also TopGun the kill sight of rams were accurately reported. They were reported taken in the correct drainage.Do you really think that if there were inherent wrongdoing DOPL would have licensed me as both outfitter and guide?
 
Rich, In a meat salvage or antler transport case what possible "evidence" are guns? People don't debone with a gun or carry meat with a gun. Because the state has the power to rip people off as they chose: Should they?
I thought honesty, integrity and Justice were the business of the court. In the Alaska case the guns were evidence of nothing. All animals were lawfully taken.
 
Trammer, are you saying your violation was the BLM's fault. Just because there system takes too long? If so I guess a person who has applied for a sheep tag is good to take a sheep because the DWR is taking too long to give them a permit? It's not fair that some people apply for years and are told no but others draw in their 1st try. That is weak. If your rifles were taken and seized they are the tools used in the crime and if allowed by state statute are subject to seizure. If you don't like it don't break the laws.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-30-12 AT 05:53PM (MST)[p]More excuses and reasons why a bigtime multistate, multilaw violator that has these kinds of issues and responses should, IMHO, never be allowed to have any kind of a guide or hunting license in the future. He has continued to respond showing he doesn't believe in any law because they are all against him and don't make any sense to him. In my estimation, this type of person will just keep right on breaking any law that's on the books if he feels it doesn't suit him until he gets caught again! Then there will be more excuses of how he's being singled out and persecuted! FYI trammer, the guns were not evidence in the case. Items used in the commission of various game law violations are seized and forfeited as part of the attempt to lessen the number of crimes if people know their equipment can be taken, as well as monetary fines and jail time issued to the violator. So Boohoo and take a hike trammer and get your chit together before you do lose all your rights in the outdoors due to multiple violations that are indefensible!
 
yet another end around to the law...apparently the DOPL did not agree with you....and to this end you were penalized...if you are being compensated for a hunt and you are physically in an area your not licensed you are breaking the law..if you waste the meat fo a game animal your breaking the law...


>Treedagain, my hunts sell for a
>fixed amount. A 5 minute
>hunt is the same as
>a 30 day hunt.So no
>partial refund would ever be
>given.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Jul-30-12
>AT 05:53?PM (MST)
>
>More excuses and reasons why a
>bigtime multistate, multilaw violator that
>has these kinds of issues
>and responses should, IMHO, never
>be allowed to have any
>kind of a guide or
>hunting license in the future.
> He has continued to
>respond showing he doesn't believe
>in any law because they
>are all against him and
>don't make any sense to
>him. In my estimation,
>this type of person will
>just keep right on breaking
>any law that's on the
>books if he feels it
>doesn't suit him until he
>gets caught again! Then
>there will be more excuses
>of how he's being singled
>out and persecuted! FYI
>trammer, the guns were not
>evidence in the case.
>Items used in the commission
>of various game law violations
>are seized and forfeited as
>part of the attempt to
>lessen the number of crimes
>if people know their equipment
>can be taken, as well
>as monetary fines and jail
>time issued to the violator.
> So Boohoo and take
>a hike trammer and get
>your chit together before you
>do lose all your rights
>in the outdoors due to
>multiple violations that are indefensible!
>




Is his name Claude Dallas?
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-30-12 AT 08:38PM (MST)[p]"I thought honesty, integrity and Justice were the business of the court."

Justice is the business of the court with the judge and/or jury ideally remaining impartial to subjective variables and decisions of innocence and guilt being determined by evidence relative to regulations and statutes. The human element in all things is the wrench in the works. There are injustices all around us and things are not fair as most of us perceive it. That is reality. Two wrongs don't make a right. If we justify breaking laws or ignoring regulations, we are no less criminal. Minimization, justification, victim stance and blaming are the foundations of all criminal thinking. Address the problem, work toward change. If you break the law, expect the harshest of consequences regardless of your motivations. The courts would truly fail us if they started to weigh based on individuals' sense of fairness rather than based on what the law dictates.

You may have been dealt a bad hand and it maybe even a travesty, but you are touting the need for honesty and integrity in others (government agencies, employees, courts, etc...) and yet where is your integrity in using their lack of character to justify your own lack? You will find yourself feeling less persecuted and having less problems with the system when you start adhering to the highest standards in spite of others rather than a lower level because of them.
 
Utah400elk, The best way to put the licensing issue in proper perspective is to: imagine going to renew your drivers license and having the agent tell you "everything looks great, here is your fees, tests, lets take your picture. Now make sure you don't drive during the next two years. we will send you your license 25 months from now"...Drivers being forbidden to drive for no good reason at all.....is it surprising that problems arise from such policy?
treedagain, I am shocked that you or any sportsman would take the treehugger,bureaucrats side in a debate between honest sportsmen and the hodgepodge rulemaking of an overbearing state.
Toggun again you are the biggest rulebreaking hypocrite of all. Here on MM you ignore the rules with nearly all your posts, like the ones about foul, hatefull, threatening or abusive language. As well as off topic remarks. You are a troublemaker and even hijacked this thread.
Additionally, guns and other property are often seized and forfeited in wildlife cases not because they are related to the crime but as a result of the farce that is proactive law enforcement and the truly American problem of policing for profit.Smart people get it.
 
trammer: "Smart people get it."

Yep, and you obviously aren't one of them, LOL! More excuses, excuses, excuses, tied in with some BS about me hihjacking a thread when what I did was expose a law breaking, liar!! I'll stack my credentials against yours any day of the week booby!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-31-12 AT 02:47PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jul-31-12 AT 02:40?PM (MST)

Trammer, where do you get

"treedagain, I am shocked that you or any sportsman would take the treehugger,bureaucrats side in a debate between honest sportsmen and the hodgepodge rulemaking of an overbearing state"

from this
"yet another end around to the law...apparently the DOPL did not agree with you....and to this end you were penalized...if you are being compensated for a hunt and you are physically in an area your not licensed you are breaking the law..if you waste the meat fo a game animal your breaking the law..."

your loophole (you thought) to "not be compensated" for time spent in area your not licensed was just an end around the rules..you got caught, you were penalized, your in the wrong but just to blind to see it....

your a habitual wildlife offender.....you have in the past knowingly broke the law....because it was easier than follow them
you knowingly and willingly wasted a game animal....because you were to lazy to pack it out...you were found GUILTY by a JURY of that crime....your actions both in the field and on-line prove your worth and show your lack of regard to both the law and wildlife we pursue....shame on you


How to start an argument online:
1. Express an opinion
2. Wait
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-03-12 AT 01:58PM (MST)[p]Why don't you just go away, as nothing you can say is going to change the fact that you've been tried and convicted in four different states for multiple game law offenses. Nobody, I repeat nobody, that's innocent gets nailed that many times for being a choir boy, LOL! The more you come on here, the more you sound like a moron and now not only have you started the Nazi BS again, but am associating me with child rape! I'm warning you right now that if this continues any more you may just be heading for another friggin court case and your ass will be grass and I'll be the lawn mower! You're a plain and simple loser and everybody now knows it and every time you post you compound your own problems. Just go away because it's about time that someone ask that you be banned from the site and it might just be me that asks Founder to get rid of your sorry ass!
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-04-12 AT 12:11PM (MST)[p]"I say dept paid. I know that I have been more diligent in my butchering and meat salvage that anyone I know. In fact I bet that I have salvaged and packed more meat with a higher % of yield than anyone on Monster Muleys"

thats about as close to a true statement that you have made, because if you hauled out more than 20 lbs of meat you did more than your BFF B JOE COY....

http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/DCForumID8/4877.html



How to start an argument online:
1. Express an opinion
2. Wait
 

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