Where Is The Line?

H

HardcoreOutdoor

Guest
This may be a dangerous question but it shouldn't be. I am certainly not trying to incite any riots or insurrections. I am however curious about where the line is?

In light of the direction Congress, the President and his appointees seem to be taking us, for example the proposed gun/ammunition restrictions, increased taxes on certain classes, interference with private contracts and companies, and the potential granting of political asylum to all illegal aliens already in this country, at what point do you think that we will decide that enough enough. What is it that would cause the average guy with a wife and kids, a mortgage and a truck payment to take to the streets and march on the capital.

When do people say that things have gone too far ( I am not suggesting that we are there...yet) and what will they do about it. I have heard "they can have my .45 when they pry it out of my cold, dead hands" my whole life but do you really think that if push came to shove that it will really come down to armed confrontation between private citizens and federal law enforcement? I really wonder if we have any revolt left in us. I have this sneaking suspicion that although we may ##### like stuck pigs we are prone to being steam rolled if the majority of politicians had the audacity and tenacity to go that way.

What is the tipping point?

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
If you are writing of armed rebellion it has been tried here before. The cost in human life was devastating. Better to do it at the voting booth.
 
If they pass an amnesty bill its all over, they will not vote out the hands that feed them. I think its too late anyway, the brain washing begins in our school systems with the growing number of liberal teachers and just progress' into college with any free time spent watching MTV so all they know is the views shared by our hip and cool commander in chief. Slowly chipping away at our gun rights is a small piece of the puzzle for these guys and I will give them credit, there not dumb and they have thrived off of the ignorance of the American people and will continue to do so.
 
They out number us. The only way we beat them at the poles is if they become too apathetic to vote.

The question was, what, if anything, would cause a mass response from those of us that don't usually do the protesting. What would push us too far? What wouldn't we put up with?

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
I listen to talk radio all day at work. I find myself thinking "Is there people out there that get as pissed about all the BS... as I do"? I don't know where the line is and what has to be done to stop all this but I can tell you I feel like a post turtle. Some arsehole put me up here now what am I going to do? Not a dang thing I can do. I don't forsee people taking it to the voting booth and making the right choice. People aren't going to vote out there silver spoon. As fast as things are changing now I don't even want to think about what it's going to be 4 years from now.
I wish I had an answer...
 
I don't think that armed revolt is totally out of the question but who knows? If you look at the gun buying thats occurring now, people are genuinely concerned.

I do believe that the long term answer is to somehow wake people up to use their own good judgement and stop being swayed by others. People are just too apathetic. If you don't believe this, just check around with folks you know. Most of them have no clue who their congressional representatives are MUCH LESS what their voting record is.

It's not just Obama. Our legislators are the ones with their hands in our pockets and voting on the introduced packages. (Mostly without reading them). These people are the most dangerous individuals in the land. They make the law, Obama just signs it. He has already ceded the presidency to Pelosi but they all have the same destructive agenda.
 
Pro so you're saying you can't beat " them " at the polls so a revolt is the only way for you to get your way? how Shiite of you.

In a democracy the majority rules, so you screwed up and took a butt kicking in the last couple elections, get over it and act like big kids. better yet act like AMERICANS. the margins aren't that far in the liberal's favor to make it impossible, and if there is one thing you can count on the ruling party always makes mistakes and those mistakes cost them votes.

All this sore loser talk is childish, Obama won the presidency fair and square by the laws of our land as did those in congress. if every election from now on we have cry babies from the losing side thinking we shouldn't accept it and mount an revolt it's only a matter of time until it happens, great time to steal a TV and a new DVD but bad for the nation. in a year and a half you have the chance to turn the tide in the other direction , focus your attention to doing it the American way.
 
I think it will take a real food shortage and that could happpen this year with the weather we are seeing in Texas right now and the weather that has been dry in many parts of the country, it could get real tight. I took out disaster insurance on my farm for the first time ever. The cost of rasing crops is real high with very little profit margin. I heard through the grapevine that a local dairy hasn't sent checks to about 50 farmers as the deductions taken out of thier milk checks was higher than the money they were recieving for thier milk. It could get ugly this year.
Driftersifter
 
It's a lot easier and cheaper to go to the polls than it is to buy a gun, but we don't do that. Where I work, I bet 80% don't vote. That's where it has to start.

But the question was, where is the line? My guess is as long as there is gasoline at the pump, food, booze, and cigarettes in the stores, and the light comes on when you flick the switch, nothing will change.
 
Post turtle. That is great and that is pretty much how I feel. I talk to my neighbors, other parents at school, little league etc, etc and I feel so out of step. If they do care at all, they are on the other side of the spectrum from me. I have been an Independent for 15 years now after being pretty active in the Republican party. I was just so fed up with their inability to project clear, concise, sensable ideas. They were just giving up, placating and conceding. I couldn't stand it anymore.

I am not an ideologue but I am a conservative. Enough government to do what the constitution directs and to regulate the idiots but no more. Once these big government programs are implemented, they never go away and they develop their own constituencies. We have created a majority that is just standing there with their hands out. The rugged individual, the entrepreneur, the independent that doesn't want or need any help is becoming a minority. I don't see how that can be reversed. It is like trying to clean up an entire society of junkies.

For me, the line might be confiscation of our firearms like they did in Australia and England. I don't love my guns, to me they are tools. I love my freedom and I sincerely believe that those guns and the second ammendment are there to guarentee that freedom. I will be bent out of shape beyond belief with many of these legislative things especially asylum for illegals but I don't know that I would be grabbing my pitch fork and marching on the capital over it. The gun issue might make a criminal out of me though.

I am basicly an optimist but the sober realist in me sees a steady, sure change in our way of life and it is my belief that it is a negative change. A place where Bill Marher, Rosie O'Donnel, Phil Donahue, Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, Keith Olberman, Oprah Winfrey, Al Gore, Chris Mathews, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, John Kerry, Ted Kennedy, Jeneane Garofalo, Al Sharton, Hillary Clinton, Barak Obama and on and on represent the norm, the mainstream and the majority. I don't think the trend can be reversed and I am not sure that is a place I want to live. What's worse, I don't know where else to go. Anybody ever been to New Zealand?

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
The dairy industry is in a big pinch but it's from oversupply, the grain market is also in the dumps from oversupply. the cattle market is flooded, but none of this lines up to cause a food shortage.

The drought in California will cause some shortages of those specialized crops but overall we're flooded with food, no danger. you are correct though a food shortage would cause chaos, this is why our government has the FSA programs in place to insure we always over produce to insure a cheap stabile supply of food. it's working well, best investment the tax payer ever made.

Did you get in on the income insurance program? I'm planting double the wheat I normally do because of it. in this economy a guaranteed $8.99 SWW on your historic yield is a no brainer, I'm not sure how it's paying on the other commdities but it works here.
 
Ya I did the income guarentee, for corn and beans. I don't agree on the cattle outlook around here they have been shooting dairy bulls for months, those use to be feeders. I raise a few beef but they have not cash flowed for a few years and I'm gonna dump them and just keep a few to eat or for emergency. Farmers around here are having a hard time borrowing for the spring plant, so I see a downward trend in yeilds due to less money for spring planting some have dropped corn entirely and are planting only beans. I have kept my same rotation but see very little profit if any in corn at the moment. I think our food on storage is at an alltime low, a serious drought of one year could put the squeeze on prices and some poor people will be left will poor choices. Our local food bank is under more pressure than anytime in memory. Unemployment in our county is at 15%. The theft crime rate is climbing like at no other time in recent memory either. We use to blame the crackheads now I think its just poor people trying to feed thier families or kids feeding thier car with gas.

Driftersifter
 
Huntindude,

It's not the election, he did win it fair and square, it is the whole collective American mindset which seems to have turned from doing something and making something to getting something. And I am not crying, I am lamenting the transformation. I believe in the syetem, I just think we have turned a corner and are headed the wrong direction and that there are too few of us that feel this way to make a difference.

By the way, I don't have any more confidence in the Republicans than I do the Democrats. They certainly didn't impress me when they had control. And if I remember my history correctly, revolt is the American way.

Regarding the food shortages, I heard a news spot this morning saying that California farmers have to prove an assured water supply for x number of months before they can finance this years crop and that water is running $1500 per acre/foot. They were saying that there was quarter section after quarter section laying fallow.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
Hardcore don't get me wrong, I don't have any more confidence in the democrats than the republicans, if either party was right more than 50% of the time they'd seeze control for good.

My way of looking at is since both sides are screw ups don't single one out as superior, America needed a " change " and they voted for it and they got some form or another of it. anyone who expected wonders out of Obama is a chump, anyone who thinks Bush or McCain were much better is equally a chump. when the parties made their nominations we were screwed, it isn't like Obama is a wrong choice we really had no choice so why get so worked up what goes around comes around. I won't be happy until TR pops out of the ground so the chance to argue is all I get out of any of this.

There isn't any food shortage guys, there is and always has been a money shortage. grain stocks are WAY up, even with a disaster here and there we have huge world stocks to fill the orders. Canada is FULL of cattle ready to cross the border, all we have to do is say the word. hard economic times are always hard on the cattle market anyway so no surprise. the stronger dollar is making export competition tough, we may see a food stortage in the future but it won't be this year I'll bet on that.
 
Timeline of nations:

1. From bondage to spiritual faith

2. From spiritual faith to great courage

3. From courage to liberty

4. From liberty to abundance

5. From abundance to complacency

6. From complacency to apathy

7. From apathy to dependence

8. From dependence back into bondage
===================================

From the comments posted and whats now happening in this country, I would say we are in the beginning second third of #7 and quickly approaching the end.
 
That comes from a Scottish jurist and historian named Sir Alexander Fraser Tytler. It was written around 1800 if I remember correctly. It is as profound today as when it was written. I believe he is correct. What is even more interesting is something that he said in the same lecture.

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largess from the public treasury. From that time on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the results that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy".

And that is where I think we are headed because the majority has figured it out.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
Your right Wade, they have figured it out, even this president believes this bs. Although I honestly believe he knows exactly what he is doing. All dictators collapse the economies severely weakening private business so they can eventually seize them one at a time and eventually overthrow the whole thing.

But this is why the founders set this country up as a Constitutional Republic designed to control the government and protect the rights of the individual. But we don't seem to want to follow that document. Instead we pick and choose whatever Amendment or Article that is convenient at the time and completely ignore the rest. There are so many unconstitutional things going on now it is utterly amazing and nobody seems to care. The only part anybody seems to want to defend is the second, they have completely thrown the rest to the dogs.
 
Unconstitutional or in your opinion unconstitutional? this is what the supreme court is for and in my opinion they do a pretty good job. it's all about interpretation.

No government in history has lasted forever, while our system is great it isn't fool proof, and we have lots of fools.

I'm going to catch hell for this but in my opinion our " diversity " as it's called will be our undoing not a few bucks wasted here or there. we have special interest groups tugging this way and that way and we waste way too much time and money trying to be PC, nobody fights this as much as the US. while the guy is a right wing whacko the book by Pat Buchanan " the death of the west " I think is way too true for my comfort. if I wanted to play dooms day advocate which seems to be so popular these days that would be the scenario I'd run with. still I'm not ready to throw in the towel, it's not that bad yet and I don't think it will be for a while.
 
Please don't misunderstand, I am not suggesting that we are headed for doommsday or armegedon. I am simply saying that our society is changing, like they always do and always have, I just don't like the changes we are making and the direction they are taking us. Change is inevitable and sometimes it is good. It is the direction of change that we have a say in.

I don't think Obama or any of the others I mentioned are evil, in fact I think they are well intentioned. They think they are doing the right thing. I just think and feel with every fiber of my being that they are wrong.

A moral, virtuous, self-reliant path is a tough one to walk. It takes discipline and strength so when people are offered an easier way to reach the same destination they naturally take it but it is a fools errand which will end badly. For hundreds of years religion was the thing that kept most people on track but it plays a far leser part in peoples lives now than it used to so there isn't anything but themselves to keep them in line. Obama and his ilk are simply offering a path of least resistance to what they think is the same end.

If I were going to pick only one of the ammendments of the constitution to defend it would probably be the second because with it in tact at least we would have a fighting chance at all the others.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
WELL!!!

IT'S KINDA LIKE THIS HERE!!!

THEY SNEAK THINGS IN REALLY SLOW!!!

KINDA LIKE RAISING TAXES!!!

THEY RAISE THEM JUST A LITTLE AT A TIME!!!

THEY'RE GONNA TRY THE SAME THING WITH AMMO & GUNS!!!

JUST TAKE A LITTLE AT A TIME!!!

I'VE SAID FOR MANY YEARS???

HOW HIGH WILL TAXES GET BEFORE THE PEOPLE STAND UP & SAY WE'VE HAD E-F'N-NOUGH???

EVIDENTALLY ALOT HIGHER THAN THEY ARE NOW???

CUZZ PEOPLE ARE JUST SITTIN BACK TAKING IT!!!

AS I'VE SAID FOR YEARS!!!

PEOPLE LIKE RUS'S BUDDY WILL TRY & SCREW US REAL SLOW!!!

TAKE JUST A LITTLE AT A TIME!!!

THEN THE STUPID PEOPLE OF THIS COUNTRY WILL WAKE UP SOMEDAY & WONDER WTF HAPPENED!!!

GEEZUS HOW BADS IT GOTTA GET BEFORE THE PEOPLE STAND UP & SAY WE'VE HAD ENOUGH???



"I'M NOT COMPLAINING,I'M TELLING IT THE WAY IT IS,SOME OF YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,THATS O.K.,SOMETIMES THE TRUTH HURTS & YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT IT,OR YOU FIND OUT WHAT THE FACTS ARE,STAND UP & VOICE YOUR OWN OPINION,THIS IS STILL AMERICA THE LAST TIME I CHECKED"!!!

493c3bb236d04499.jpg


REMEMBER!!!

THERE'S ONLY ONE bobcat!!!
 
Hardcore, I think you've got a pretty good take on things and you're level headed about it, I don't think we're that far apart in how we see the big picture. I'm not sure if that's a compliment or an insult.

The only thing I'd say is if you feel so strongly that Obama is wrong what would you say is right? I can't say I have any confidence in him myself, so if we want to make some changes in the midterms who and what should we be looking for? I'm not seeing anyone or hearing any ideas I see as any better, simply opposing everything isn't much of a plan.
 
Like I said, I am not an ideologue. I refuse to be group or pigeon holed. I try to think for myself and I am of the believe that if you get people away from the talking heads and discuss things, we really are not that far apart on most things. We want pretty much the same things. Politics in this country changed signifacantly with the advent of TV and it really ginned up after JFK was killed. It is the multi-term, long time politicians, mostly Senators, that are the problem. They have become institutions onto themselves. Any major changes proposed to the system are a threat to their agendas and power base so they demogogue it and defeat it. They are the problem and the mostly liberal media goes along with them.

I am a strict constructionist so I believe that the constitution is not a living document, it is what it says it is. I think that the federal government should be limited to the enumerated powers and everything else goes to the states where citizens can access and influence decision makers. Of course we have come a long way from that point and it will take a lot of surgery to cut all that fat away.

At the very least I would like to have seen the Republicans succeed in freezing the budget for this year at last years levels. The Obama administration was able to defeat that effort and submitted the bloated carcass that congress is debating right now. Even some of the Dems are choking on this one and not just the conservative blue dog causcus either.

Look there is reason you don't feed that poor stray that shows up at the back door and there is a reason that the Rangers at Yellowstone say not to feed the bears. They get hooked on the handouts and then they are forever changed, ruined forever. Humans are no different.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
I pretty much agree with you, the spending has been out of hand for years and this will take it to the next level. as I said above though, I think the time to make a difference has passed, all we could ask or expect the dems to do now is slow down so it takes longer for us to drown in debt.

Obama is going to do one of two things, save the economy and put himself in a second term or look like an idiot which will hand full control back to the republicans in protest of his irresponsibility. the stakes have never been higher for both parties. this is why I hate full control by either one of them, they're just to stupid to have it.
 
Todays headline about Obama pushing the CEO of GM out is another example of things going to far. We shouldn't be bailing private companies out. If we were not bailing them out we would not be making decisions about who runs a particular company. But I feel better now because the President told me this morning that the full faith and credit of the federal government is backing the warranty of my wifes Chevrolet Suburban. I guess I will be calling him if the dealership doesn't fix the tranny properly.

I think you asked who I listened to or who I had confidence in within the government. I worked for McCain many years ago and have a great deal of respect for him personally, the man is in so much physical pain day in and day out yet he never let's it stop him, but I am not a fan of his politically. Dr. Tom Coburn is a Senator from Oklahoma and he is just about the most common sense guy out there. He is one of the few we should be listening to.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
I'm not big on the government getting involved with private industry either, but when we decided we wanted to be a player in a world economy I'm not sure how you pick and choose . it's a well known fact we've exported millions of jobs, if we lose the auto companies we have left they won't come back it's a cinch. Japan is putting money into Toyota, now the worlds lagers auto maker, if Japan will do it how can we tell GM tough luck? if America farmers got the subsidies the european and Japanese farmers got we'ld live like rock stars, where do you draw the line if you want to play the world game? if we want to be the ONLY capitolist nation in a world game we're going to lose, just like we're melting away right now.

To stay alive and compete we need protection for our companies, subsidies to level the field or admit we're going to have to drop our standard of living to that of our competition. there is no way around it we're not that much smarter or special than the rest of the world, we have to make a choice and go with it.
 
Well, actually, I wrote an article that covered that subject sometime back. We either have to be a part of the global economy and play like everyone else plays or not and work within our own borders with a limited number of other trading partners. If we do the later we would be self-sustaining and just fine but our companies would be smaller because they would only be serving US customers.

Going global allowed our companies to grow very large and stock holders made a lot of money. Which is the right choice? I don't know but the reason we are having so much trouble right now is that we are neither trully US centric or tully global. We are trying to have our cake and eat it too and that won't work for long.

Jobs and industry left this country because companies could get the same specified products built for a fraction of the cost overseas and then turn back around and sell it here and other markets at a much higher margin of profit. Stock holders make a lot of money, companies grow but the US population loses jobs and industry. Then you have an influx of cheap labor come in the country illegally from over the borders which drives wages down. That is the second whammy.

Other countries standard of living will rise and ours will fall until they equalize and then there will be no more incentive for US companies to outsource jobs because they will be able to get the same work done here for the same cost as overseas. Our standard of living has to fall and their standard of living has to rise if we are going to compete on a global basis.

I am not a protectionist but I would rather have smaller, less profitable US compnaies doing business here in the US serving US customers. Going global costs us jobs, industry and standard of living. But then again I don't dream of retiring at 65 on a big fat 401K account either. And from a strategic, homeland defense standpoint losing all those jobs and industry is a disaster. How do you make guns and tanks to protect your country if there are no machinsts or steel mills left here. However, read a book called "The Pentagons New Map" by Thomas P.M. Barnett and he says the more global we are, the more connected we are, the less apt we to go to war with each other. He says the waring countries in the 21st century are the ones that are not a part of the global economy, the disconnected ones.

We got to big, too fast and lived too large. To keep it all going business, government and idividuals had to expand and take on debt. At the same time the majority of our society changed from makers to takers. It is a house of cards.

We got fat, dumb and "happy". We put away our moral compasses and let ourselves get distracted from what is really important.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
Both of you guys make sense the challenge lies in the fact that we are broke, we cannot pay back what we owe now. If we throw up protectionist barriers the consquences will be far worse then what was experienced during the Great Depression.

There were many reasons for jobs moving offshore and it goes far beyond just simple wages. China is WAY easier to do business with, they want businesses to open there, they welcome capital and investment. Our country is anti business, anti growth and anti capital. We tax savings and capital gains therefore those savings and that capital goes to where it isn't taxed.

Until we want to admit to ourselves that we cannot paper over the structural problems in our economy nor can we become protectionist because we need the rest of the world to finance our lifestyle we are just kidding ourselves.

Global markets are here to stay, like it or not. If the rest of the world get's more protectionist it will hurt us far more then it hurts them.

There is a way forward but there is not a single politician who wants to be reelected that could state facts, they would be crucified by the U.S. media and by which ever is the opposite party.

Until you can convince Americans to feel some pain nothing is going to be done about our continued erosion. Living standards in this country are going to decrease because either inflation will destroy the value of the dollar or we will not be able to borrow enough to maintain them. Either way the end result will be a declining standard of living and more transfers of wealth away from the U.S.

Nemont
 
As long as we all agree a reduced standard of living is price we pay for wanting to play ball in the global economy then I agree with both of you. we want to be capitolist when it suits us and we want to be socialist when it works out best for us, our businesses can't survive in that climate, we're seeing proof of that right now.


Sometimes I have to wonder if it was worth it though, it may be too late now but we did have a choice .
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-31-09 AT 03:12PM (MST)[p]I don't know that anyone agrees that reduced living standards is the price we pay. I think 99% of Americans are either brainwashed or braindead when it comes to economics and the consquences of what is being done to their money and their lives.

We have squandered our capital on unproductive things and have only ourselves and the Federal Reserve to blame for it. It is not the Chinese, Japanese nor any other foreign countries fault that they are open for business and we choose not to be.

Watch what happens when they finally pull the plug on the U.S. dollar. Living standards will fall dramatically.

What Washington is doing right now is guaranteeing that living standards will be reduced, either through inflationary monetary policy or through crushing debt burdens piling upon all the debt we already have taken on. Reduced living standards are inevitable.

Borrowing and printing money to paper over all the bad borrowing we done before is like painting over the cracks in the walls of your house, you don't see them any more and the next owner will have to deal with the structural problems that are causing the cracks. Well the next owners of our house, our kids and grand kids, are being handed a bigger and bigger strutural problem to have to deal with.

It is far too late to pull inward and become isolationist, we simply cannot afford it nor is there any political will to do it.

We are niether capitalist nor are we socialist, we are selfishist. We want to be able to borrow and spend all that the world gives us but the minute things turn south for us we want to tell the world how we should be treated. We are an arrogant empire and all empires end.

We went around the world making deals to open borders and demanded that the people around the world compete. Then we subsidize all our industries that have political clout. We have thrown billions at the car companies, and trillions at the banks and what is there to show for it? Now Giethner is the de facto manager of the worlds largest hedge fund. None of this is going to end well in the long run.

Now Barney Frank want control not just of bonuses but all wages in any company that recieves Federal money. As if Washington knows what is and is not an appropriate wages for every job better then the market does.

We deserve everything that is coming our way.

Nemont
 
Unfortunately, I agree with both of you. We squandered, we lost focus, we got lazy, we got distracted, we allowed ourselves to get drawn into the Madison Avenue hype and consume more than we should have, we borrowed more than we should have, we gave up too much power to the federal government, we turned our heads while millions of lillegal aliens flooded across the border, we overlooked greedy, irresponsable and negligent business practices, we let groups like the ACLU turn the law on its head and worst of all, maybe the root cause of all of it, we allowed elected politicians to stay too long and become far too powerful.

They got into office, they built little kingdoms and then incrementally but patiently and persistantly implemented their personal agendas in such a way that to criticize their programs makes you sound like a biggot, homophobe, snob, racist, misogynist, warmonger, bible thumper, fascist or right wing nut job. And to add insult to injury, most of them got wealthy in the process.

We fought a revolution. We fought a civil war. We beat Hitler and Tojo. We ended slavery. We put men on the moon. We were given a gift of wealth and priviledge. We were supposed to be vigilent. We were supposed to be good stewards. Yet we are more deeply divided now along racial, religious, political, sexual and financial lines then ever before. I don't know what the future holds for this country.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
I think that is a great question. Ive wondered that for a long time. I am a huge history nut, and everything I read suggests it does it ever so slowly. Look at the poor Jews, they stood there and got slaughtered and barely lifted a hand. The German citizens were blind in what came there way. So its hard to tell. We have 65 million gun owners in USA so I think it would be different. I think you are seeing stuff happening now. All the Tea Partys, people writing that never do, People wondering what the heck they did by voting for Obama. It happens ever so slowly. I think what would happen first is some real radical milita groups would rise first, and people would slowly start to back them, along with a good part of our military i do believe. But I totally agree this is something one has to win by education and the polls. About time conservatives got off there butts and started to be vocal. Same goes for gun and hunting rights!!! We have to speak out, vote, run, educate............
 
Huntindude

The only thing I'd say is if you feel so strongly that Obama is wrong what would you say is right? I can't say I have any confidence in him myself, so if we want to make some changes in the midterms who and what should we be looking for? I'm not seeing anyone or hearing any ideas I see as any better, simply opposing everything isn't much of a plan.


Simple put for me, would to hold up our constitution, strong states rights, 20% straight across the board tax rates,limited social programs to get people on there feet, limited goverment intervention so manufacturing etc can make a profit and not be so bogged down by b.s. laws and regulations. Let the American people, work and keep what they make and reward those that do. That would line out alot of things. I dont know how, but if we could get more people to represent us that were actually working class people that have a clue. Not a pot of lawyers.... anyways, be better what is happening now...
 
All of this comes down to dependence ideals. Everyone expects a free ride. We have the government bailing-out banks and auto companies. What would really happen if these institutions failed? The government is expected to redistribute wealth under the current admin, but how much and to whom? Mortage relief for those who got in over their head. What about the guy who didn't buy the $600,000 house, but could have gone the same route?

We have welfare, flood insurance, crop insurance, and people want the government to cover their health insurance. The majority of the people in our nation expect some type of a free ride. That is a fact. The most important ffact is that the Goverment has NO MONEY! They are using leverage against future american citizens to give the dependent policies to the current population, and then only a select few. Too many people are taking advantage of the system and handouts from the cop insurance to dairy buy-outs to banks to auto workers to medicaide drs to welfare recipients to 58 weeks of unemployment to disability to etc......

When will Americans revolt. Not in the current generations because too many expect something for nothing. They were raised that way, to expect something for nothing. Allowance as a kid, a free ride as a teen, paid my mummy and pop. Now the government is the surrogate. Where is my check?? Check, where are you?? I want a check, too!!!!!!
 
I would start with replacing the old, entrenched politicians with new faces in every federal election. Get the little kings and queens out of congress. Then I would push hard for a dramatic reform of the tax code. I mean take a meat cleaver to it until it is simple, fair and equitable.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
>I would start with replacing the
>old, entrenched politicians with new
>faces in every federal election.
> Get the little kings
>and queens out of congress.
> Then I would push
>hard for a dramatic reform
>of the tax code.
>I mean take a meat
>cleaver to it until it
>is simple, fair and equitable.
>
>
>Wade
>www.HardcoreOutdoor.com

Term limits, an excellent start.
 
Term limits are already in place, they are called elections! When Americans wake up and start speaking with their votes we will start taking our country back.

PRO

www.oddiction.com
 
>Term limits are already in place,
>they are called elections! When
>Americans wake up and start
>speaking with their votes we
>will start taking our country
>back.
>
>PRO
>
>www.oddiction.com

Agreed, but also limits prevent making a lucrative career of it instead of simply serving and going back into the private sector.
 
Interesting. The one thing that politicians forget is that we still have the ability to vote them out. Amnesty and massive amounts of welfare will change all of that since the takers will outnumber the producers soon. Next year we all need to vote out all incumbents regardless of party. They are all smart lawyers who have, over years, developed a foolproof system to guarantee themselves lifetime jobs with great benefits. Thay don't care about killing off the middle class or robbing social security. They are corrupt by definition. My old man told me never to mess with the guy that has nothing to lose because he will be the one that kills you. He was right and a lot of people are reaching that point of not valuing a life of misery. What is my tipping point? It is the second amendment. When that is lost we are finished. That is the one I will kick the bucket for.
 
I got a PM saying that I had lost hope. Not true but I don't live on hope anyway. What does give me hope? Tom Daschle getting voted out of office gave me hope. Daschle having to withdraw his nomination for Secretary of Health and Human Services for not paying his taxes gave me hope.

Other cabinet Secretaries having to withdraw from nomination because we raised cane about them not paying their taxes gives me hope. Voting Ted Kennedy, Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, Barney Frank, Cheuck Schumer, Christopher Dodd, John Murtha, Robert Byrd, Arlen Specter, Olympia Snowe, Susan Collins out of office would give me hope.

Dr. Tom Coburn gives me hope. John Kyle gives me hope. Jeff Flake gives me hope. John Shaddeg gives me hope.

When that starts happening, I will cut back on buying ammunition and high cap mags.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
I liked Daschle , one of the few pro ag voices we had.

Nemont what about the debt we already have? $36,385 PER CITIZEN not per taxpayer so whats a few more trillion if your not going to pay anyhow? going up 3.85 billion a day even in the good'ol days before Obama, how is he going to cut that during a depression? it's easy to say it's bad because it is, but I really think the horse has left the barn already. am I the only one who sees a problem here?
 
I guess Daschle is where we part ways then. I think he was one of the biggest crooks in Washington. His tax problems and his wifes ethical conflicts were just the iceing on the cake for me. The fact that he was bringing home the pork doesn't earn him any points with me. On a national level he was one of the partisan, game players that got us headed the wrong direction.

Most people don't know just how responsable Daschle was for Obamas rise to stardom. I won't forgive him for that either.

Regarding the debt, so if the barn is on fire, you suggest throwing gas on it?

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-01-09 AT 09:43PM (MST)[p]HD,

The problems is that it makes the future problems worse. China buys about 50% of our bonds. That means that we expect them to be on the hook for about another Trillion just this year.


When they finally figure out we aren't good for all the money they lent then they can do a couple of things. Strip assets from our country and/or demand security in the form of real estate.

If just borrowing and spending is the right course then we are going to be able to see what consquences are.

Inflating the dollar works in the short term to help pay back the trillions we are borrowing. The problem is that inflation destroys the middle class. All I have heard from those that think Obama has to spend this money is that if he doesn't things would be worse. Rapid and persistant inflation will rob more wealth and savings then any tax increases will. It ensures that the standard of living for vast swaths of the U.S. population will be decreased because the value of their paper be will destroyed.

I understand the horse has left the barn, I don't understand the idea that just letting run wild, join up with some wild mustangs and breed more wild horse. We should be trying to put the horse back in the barn.

When the currency crisis hits this country it will move more rapidly then the banking crisis and the Fed and the Treasury will not be able to stop it.

Nemont
 
O'Bama & the majority party in congress (THE DEMS) are completely out of control. They are just like little kids with an extreme sweet tooth and an open tab, in a candy store, or h-dude with an unlimited tab down at the corner tavern. The kids are gonna eat all the candy and order more - and H-dude is gonna drink the bar dry. I keep hearing the libs in the media and on this site say that the minority (GOP) just saying "NO" is not the answer. YES IT IS. This country and its citizens can't afford what O'Bama & The Lib Congress is doing to this country - period. Yea Bush cracked open the barn door as did the rep. majority party till 2006 and the dem. majority party since 2006. The libs with their pent up spending desires have not only kicked down the barn door - they burnt down the barn when they left - and even if we could round them up, their is no place to puy them. We are totally fu**** as are our kids and their kids. The only answer is to vote every single one of these losers out of office in 2010 before they spend all the money on the planet even China's.
 
So Daschle didn't pay some taxes right away on a loaned car, but he paid in full when he found it. sloppy maybe, but not crooked. if we're going to hold everyone to such a high standard that mistakes can't be found and voluntarily corrected we're never going to find the 545 saints we need to run the nation. pure as the driven snow politians are rare even in the republican party.

I'm not saying the spending is the right thing to do, or that it isn't going to hurt us, I'm just asking why is it that it took near 40K per citizen to get your attention? and how do we pay it down now when we were adding 3.5 billion a day during the good times? nobody wants to answer how we do that. as I said even if Obama was half Scotch and held the budget where we're used to it we'ld double the debt in 10-15 years. I think all the sudden interest in debt has more to do with politics than economics sometimes. we were and we are screwed, we're just fighting over a few years one way or another before we're broke.

I'm not making any excuses because there isn't one for Bush or Obama , just an observation.
 
I believe the spending and deficit are distractions from the end goal, which is for the government to wrest power away from the private sector. dude is right, the debt is so huge what difference does it make as far as ever paying it off? The rub is, it allows the federal government to take over the banks, insurance companies, auto companies, and now ANY company that little Timmy G wants. The federal government is now going to hand pick the Board of Directors for GM, is that really the proper role of the feds? What about all the shareholders who have been ripped off by this 'hostile' takeover? dude says we aren't losing any freedoms, WTF do you call having your business taken away by corrupt politicians?

PRO

www.oddiction.com
 
Maybe the line is when gas exceeds $4 a gallon again and does not stop there on its way to $10?

Or maybe when the coming energy and gas/oil shortages come and Obama moves to nationalize the oil and power companies compounding the problem?

Or maybe its after Iran has a nuke and attacks Israel and Obama stands by and does nothing while the Israeli's fight for their very survival? They will not go quietly this time like they did with Hitler.

Or maybe its after our currency collapses and standards of living are reduced so much that Americans get fed up with living in poverty?

At some point something is going to happen to make the American people realize the left and its policies are destructive to our country and way of life. At that point if we're not all living under martial law and Obama has become our dictator for life? They will all be tossed out of office. It happens every time the left comes to power because they destroy wealth and create a crisis. It then takes the principles of conservatism to right the ship. The problem has always been the policies they implement we can't seem to get rid of when we do correct the ship so they are a drag on what we really could achieve in a truly free society. This time though it is going to come to a head much sooner because we are headed for a financial disaster with social security and medicare alone and now we have all this on top of it.

I don't which one of those it will be but it would not surprise me if one of the above was the turning point. Hopefully the country is still functioning when it happens, and hasn't been knocked back to the 18th century because someone exploded a nuke in the upper atmosphere and the resulting EMP took out all our electrical systems. That is a possibility if Iran acquires a nuke because Obama doesn't seem to be for missile defense.

Interesting times indeed.
 
HD,

If you were so inclined and had the time you could wade through my posts regarding the GWB spending and how that spending lost him my support. I am opposed to deficit spending and was even before it was cool to be against deficit spending.

To me it doesn't matter whether there is a D or an R after the name, it matters whether they believe in transparent markets and fiscal discipline. Not many in that category. I voted for Bush twice, not proud of my second vote but the dems put up such a terrible candidate I didn't see where I had a choice. Ron Paul was on the ballot here and I supported him.

I have no doubt that those who ignored the spending spree during the Bush years but suddenly have found their "conservatism" indeed are just playing politics. For me economics is far more important then playing politics. There has never been a country in the history of the world that lost it's economic power and maintained it's dominant position in the world.

The 21st century is going to be the century of China. They will have enormous problems just like we did but look around at what China is spending it's money on. They are securing their supplies of energy, strategic metals and food products. The U.S. Army is providing security in Afghanistan for the Chinese Companies and workers who are developing the 2nd largest copper deposit in the world.

We are dependent upon them for nearly 1/3 of GDP in the form of either goods or loans. Do you really think the best course of action is to continue to pile up debt on top of the debt we already have? It would be better to cut up the credit card and start to live within our means. Digging a bigger hole only allows for more bodies to be thrown into it.

I don't believe that the left in this country is any more dangerous then the right. There are as many "good" and patriotic American on the left as there are on the right. The problem is that both parties have to hold on to their "base": the exteme left or extreme right.

If anyone screaming about Obama racking up this debt did not condemn VP Cheney when he stated that, "Deficits don't matter", then in my mind they don't deserve the right to critize. You cannot be for deficits when Republicans hold the power and against them when Democrats do. Deficits and debt do indeed matter and both parties seem bent upon the idea that when they are in power they are going to show the other side how to really spend money.

I think if you had children you would understand my point of view better. We are leaving them a legacy of debt, dependence and perhaps outright economic bondage.

Nemont
 
huntindude

You must be kidding. Daschle, the Senate Majority Leader, enjoys the services of a full time driver and a spiffy new Caddi for three years. The car/driver was not part of his official compensation pacakge, it was provided free of charge to him by a Democrat fundraiser and you want us to believe that his not declaring that and paying taxes on it was just a mistake? Just an oversight? I can only conlude from this incident that Daschle is either stupid, crooked or incredibly arrogant. In any case he deserves to be out of office and his accountant should be sanctioned.

As far as debt and spending. I am vehimently opposed to irresponsable and excessive spending by any government entity, regardless of party affiliation. Especially when it results in the taking on of debt. Me and a lot of other people were complaining about over spending and debt during the second Bush term. The reason Obamas spending has become such a big deal though is because of the the sheer magnitutde of the new spending and new debt. It is unprecidented. It is not political, it is about bad leadership, bad legislation, bad business practices, and bad stewardship.

This administration has said numerous times that a good crisis creates all sorts of opportunities that should be exploited and they are certainly taking advantage of this one. It deserves all the attention and sunshine it gets.

The thing that gets me and the thing that hurts the credability of the liberals is their reluctance to be critical of their own side when it deserves it. Most conservatives tend to be pretty even handed and fair about their criticism. They pass it out to whomever deserves regardless of party. Not so much with the libs.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
I'm not sure why all the wood for Daschle, he paid his taxes in full without being forced, so big deal. nobody said he had a halo but he isn't any worse than 90% of them.

Nemont I can agree with eveything there. your kids should do fine because you'll see to it they're prepared for the reality of the future, others may not be so fortunete. we are in trouble and it was a bipartisan effort that got us there, I just don't see any way to avoid digging a deeper hole no matter who has control from here on.
 
Daschle is a turd of the first order and always will be. The guy didn't pay his taxes until he found out about his prestigious cabinet appointment. If he had not been tagged for a high level cabinet appointment - He would have never paid his obligation!!! Just like all the other numerous OBUMMER appointees - that suddenly had an taxpaer enlightened epiphany and did the right thing once they get tagged to serve in the messiah's administration. I give the guy a little credit unlike little Timmy, at least he pulled himself out, or maybe he was pushed out who knows. The good thing is that he is out, and so should all the other liberal TAX CHEATS.
 
It was the sunshine that forced him to pay up and "he is no worse than 90% of them" is beautiful. Why not just say what the people in Massachusetts have been saying for years about Ted Kennedy which is "yea we know he is a crook but he is our crook so it is OK". That's why 90% of them should be voted out.

Things won't get better in this country until the majority of voters decide that the damage being done to the country is more important than the pork their politicians bring home. Voters need to take a longer, more mature view.

Want to know how to avoid digging the hole deeper? How about stop digging! Stop spending! But they can't, they are weak and addicted, which is why they should be voted out.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
So Daschle wouln't have paid if he hadn't been up for a cabinet post? maybe, but with that theory everyone in congress who wasn't up for a post is a tax cheat undiscovered. no republicans would be in that group though, all angels. no wonder we can only get losers elected, anyone with a life who's done anything would rightfully run from the halo zone we now demand elected official live in. some of the best and brightest who can get things done have a checkered past and a skeleton in a closet or two, they're out now days. I'm not saying Daschle is one of these people because he's a run of the mill politian, but we ask for geaks and nerds and that what we get.


Stop spending? fat chance, if people can't run their own finances properly what are the odds politains who promise pain will get elected? the best we can hope for is a leader who'll keep it around the 3.5 billion a day debt like Bush did, from here on that will be a conservative who knows what a liberal will do.
 
Well based on the number of recent appointees that have had notable tax problems come to light there appears to be a fair amount of tax cheats in Washington. Apprarently they are not a scared of the IRS as regular folks.

Look, you will keep getting idiots elected if that is what you are willing to accept. Work to defeat the idiots and things will eventually improve. The key word there is "work." A successful democratic republic requires hard work, vigilence and a moral code.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-02-09 AT 01:22PM (MST)[p]The "tax cheats" issue is kind of stupid. Daschle got what he deserved but I can take my taxes to 3 different accountants and get three different numbers. The IRS doesn't even know what the actual number should be.

I got some bad advice a couple of years ago, my new accountant filed for an amended return and I recieved two years worth of refunds, Obama gets the stimulus passed and I am allowed to go back three years and get that third year refunded. I paid what my accountant put on paper. I am willing to bet that these guys are exactly the same. The tax code is so complex and it is open to interpretation is alot of areas. If you have an aggressive accountant and he/she pushes the edges then you can have issues later.

Daschle spoke at a health care conference I attended. He had some good ideas but he acted like an arrogant POS when anybody questioned his assumptions or numbers. Told the crowd of insurance people that they are just going to have to accept his numbers as correct because those were the ones he was going to use.

Nemont
 
The car service provided to him free of charge is pretty straight forward. It is either a gift or imputed income. Either way it is taxable and in this case worth $142,000 in taxes and interest which is certainly material. The only question really is do you want to declare it or not. Do you want to be honest of not. Do you ever want to serve as a cabinet secretary or not.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
I am in no way defending Daschle, he got what he deserved and he knew that there was no way he could serve effectively even if he had been confirmed. Who do you think is happier right now? Giethner or Daschle?

I was just saying our system is screwed up and to hang your hat upon whether or not there were mistakes made in completing a tax return is silly in a lot of cases.

Nemont
 
I said several times here that the tax system was rediculously complex and should be dramatically reformed/simplified. I am not hanging my hat on Daschle not paying his taxes. I was responding to a comment that he paid his taxes in full.

Gift or imputed taxes, he did not declare it. That is cheating and that is not silly. Public oficials should be doing better and cleaner than anybody, especially an issue as cut and dried as this one.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
He did pay it in full, are 100% positive all the other 545 people in DC don't have worse issues? he should have caught it I agree, but he didn't and when he did it was paid, if everyone paid their debt even if it was a little past due would that be a good thing or not? don't make this a bigger deal than it is, he did pay and he paid before the IRS told him too.

If he had been a righty arrested for playing gay footsie with an undercover cop in the mens room he'd have been appointed and all would be swell. but be late on a tax payment on a perk and you're degenerate not fit to serve, funny stuff.
 
No, not at all, I am saying that 95% of them are crooks and will get away with everything they can as long as they can until they get caught or have no other choice to do the right thing. They are running the odds and gaming the system.

Your error in this is that you assume Daschle made an honest mistake, could have happened to anybody right? I just happen to disagree. I think he knew exactly what he was doing. They all do.

Please don't even get me started on the guy from Idaho. Besides, he is still in office isn't he?

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
>He did pay it in full,
>are 100% positive all the
>other 545 people in DC
>don't have worse issues? he
>should have caught it I
>agree, but he didn't and
>when he did it was
>paid, if everyone paid their
>debt even if it was
>a little past due would
>that be a good thing
>or not? don't make this
>a bigger deal than it
>is, he did pay and
>he paid before the IRS
>told him too.
>
> If he had been
>a righty arrested for playing
>gay footsie with an undercover
>cop in the mens room
>he'd have been appointed and
>all would be swell. but
>be late on a tax
>payment on a perk and
>you're degenerate not fit to
>serve, funny stuff.


It was unreported income. He didn't know where the money came from or if it was taxable? He is a tax cheat and another hypocritical politician.
 
I didn't say he was Johnny on the spot, I'm just asking what makes Daschle a stand out in a room full of the same?

I can go along with the point that unless we demand better we aren't going to get better, but who in their right mind would take the job? live in a fish bowl getting attacked on a daily basis to make less money than you could in the private sector? does it surprise you we get losers?

Only a loser would take the job, they never did crap so it's hard to find crap on them. I don't care if the guy was late with TWO tax payments and owns a chain of cathouses if he can get it done and do it legally. most great businessmen and go getters aren't pure as the driven snow and few squeak when they walk. we deserve what we get for setting the " moral and ethical " standards too high for a real person to hold office.
 
Is paying their income tax setting the bar too high? I think not. Stop making excuses for a POS like him.
 
I will agree with one thing. We have sort of backed ourselves into a corner with regard to who can or can't run for office. John Wayne couldn't survive the process. I know I couldn't, had too much fun when I was younger.

Daschle and most of the others in that bunch are old enough to know better.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
Ransom you miss the point , he DID pay his taxes, and he paid them BEFORE the IRS told him too. yes he should have known better and the fact he lives in a fish bowl you'd think would have made him even more careful. if you look hard he might have been late on paying his power bill one time or another, that would prove he's a crook right? if everyone who owed me money paid before I sent them a bill I'd be one happy guy, if Daschle needs any hay he can call me anytime. like I said anyone who's never made a mistake hasn't done much.
 
>Ransom you miss the point ,
>he DID pay his taxes,
>and he paid them BEFORE
>the IRS told him too.
>yes he should have known
>better and the fact he
>lives in a fish bowl
>you'd think would have made
>him even more careful. if
>you look hard he might
>have been late on paying
>his power bill one time
>or another, that would prove
>he's a crook right? if
>everyone who owed me money
>paid before I sent them
>a bill I'd be one
>happy guy, if Daschle needs
>any hay he can call
>me anytime. like I said
>anyone who's never made a
>mistake hasn't done much.

The point is he's a POS. That's my point and I'm sticking with it. I hope you sell him hay and he eats it himself because he is a jackass.
 

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