Why have Utahs Desert Sheep tanked?

Trammer

Active Member
Messages
327
I have my own theory but I am more interested in hearing why others think Utahs Desert Sheep program is in the tank. According to Don Peay, Utah was to have 100 Desert Sheep tags by the year 2000 and was projected to have about 200 tags per year by now.

Interestingly the interstate transplant rate also suggests the same trend (Utah is a Sheep whore) and imports more wild sheep than any other. So why are there about the same number of Desert sheep and permits as there were when that claim was made?
 
Sheep move around and our DWR refuses to recognize their existence. For instance thing of the Zion herd how long was it there before they said oh yeah theres sheep in those hills? It is simple the sheep spread out and the DWR are pretty lazy half the time.
 
I wasnt aware they had "tanked". Sheep tag numbers only tell part of the story. Are there specific units that are not thriving while othera are?

Why dont you go ahead and tell us your theory?


[font color="blue"]I don't make the soup, I just stir it.[/font]
 
There has been talk that the nutritional value of the plants they eat have been lower than normal in the past few year, which makes it easier for them to get sick from viruses.
Also, the high amount of predators are taking there toll.
 
Trammer,

You've been around Utah desert sheep as much or more than anyone around. I'd be interested to hear what you have to say. God knows it's not because we over-hunt them! We have sheep that should be hunted and are not. I suspect it's a number of factors, feed, predation, disease, weather etc.

There's one other thing, why the hell does the F&G love to have odd number of tags with shocking regularity? This exacerbates the points logjam since the max tag holders end up with way less than 50% of the tags. More like 35%.
They could rotate tag numbers in a unit. Say they want to average 3 tags in a unit. They could issue 2 tags one year and 4 tags the next. Instead they play the game with odd tag numbers!

Let's hear it Brad.

Zeke
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-08-14 AT 10:37AM (MST)[p]Tram,

I too am wondering what your thoughts are... More broken promises by chance? Think it was just more blowing of smoke by SFW to get big money into Utah?

My thought is that Don did have good intentions and lots of big Ideas that we SO want. More Deer, and more sheep and other OIL animals but he seemed to get side tracked. IMHO, he wanted to get more people interested in sheep and we all know that once you get into sheep it will be for life. Which means more people going north which means more money in his pocket with his side business in owning ARRO.

Just my thoughts....

Tallbuck1
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-08-14 AT 10:08AM (MST)[p]Wow Tall,
Usually you fact-check pretty well before you post, which I usually enjoy, but you might want to double-check a few facts before you grind your axe!
Wow!
Zeke
 
Ok, I get it now.
I'm glad you shared all the facts.
Now we all know why the Utah desert sheep have not done as well as projected. That damn Don!
Zeke
 
Zeke what percentage of sheep tags does SFW auction off? It's NOT 5 percent that they agreed to??
 
>Ok, I get it now.
>I'm glad you shared all the
>facts.
>Now we all know why the
>Utah desert sheep have not
>done as well as projected.
>That damn Don!
>Zeke



:)



Tallbuck1
 
I thought the "grind-the-axe" thread was elsewhere but I guess you all can pop-a-squat where ever you want.

Auction tags? What does that have to do with the decline of the Utah desert sheep? Do you realy think we're over-hunting them into population decline? The auction tags and other donations are the reason we even have the numbers we still do.

Trammer said we are a "sheep whore" which I think he meant we transplant sheep from other States to bolster our population and infuse new genetics... which is a good thing. I fail to see how he can twist that into blaming Don for the decline.

If you guys want to talk about your dislike for Don, then that's fine and you'll gain "popularity" with the "big boys" on MM. I thought we were talking about the sheep population.

Carry on,
Zeke
 
Just a random question... Are Utah Rocky's doing better then Desert's?

Seems like a lot of instate transplants have taken place with rocky's and out of state transplants have happened for desert. Are Deserts just not doing that well that we don't have a big enough population in state to start other herds?

Brad, seriously wondering what your thoughts are why the Desert's haven't been able to have the population grow.


Tallbuck1
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-08-14 AT 11:44AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Apr-08-14 AT 11:42?AM (MST)

I hope Brad gets back on here to give us his ideas. I value his input since he has vast knowledge and has spent as much or more time around desert sheep than anyone I know... and he's fun to talk to.

Tall, That's not a random question at all. Yes, the rocky's are doing better and most all the recent transplant have taken place from in-State.

The desert sheep are a different animal... literally. ha
Most but not all recent transplants are from other states.

We lack 2 critical things for growing world class size desert sheep; genetics and habitat. Both are kind of important. Utah's sheep have always been known as the runts of the litter. Most of our largest rams taken by hunters are actually sheep which originated from other States.

2 cents worth,
Zeke

I should pruf reed better.
 
>
>We lack 2 critical things for
>growing world class size desert
>sheep; genetics and habitat. Both
>are kind of important. Utah's
>sheep have always been known
>as the runts of the
>litter. Most of out largest
>rams taken by hunters are
>actually sheep from other States.
>
>
>2 cents worth,
>Zeke


Zeke,

I agree that we are missing those two critical items for big sheep, but what about just bolstering the Desert population in general? If we have more sheep wont size and genetics come in time?

How can we as utahn's help "grow" the herd size?






Tallbuck1
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-08-14 AT 02:43PM (MST)[p]Tall,
We've been doing it and as far as I know we plan to continue doing it. The bummer is when our areas/States from which to draw our future sheep get impacted by desease. Even if the specific area isn't infected, the donor State is less likely to donate more sheep to us.

One constant goal is infuse our runt sheep with outside genetics along with bolstering numbers. Transplants will continue and we're getting sheep from areas that historically produce larger rams. (remember that BIG HORNS are just one small part of a genetically heathy ram)

Here's the catch; MONEY!
The average deer hunter cares nothing about wild sheep. He's never seen one, will never hunt one and probably doesn't know anyone who has. His $40 per year "donation" will not pay for much extra.... and sheep are an "extra". It takes donations, auctions, time donations and lots on interested people. The F&G cannot fund all the sheep projects with the money from the deer hunter's tag sales and sheep tags do not return enough money to sustain the work involved. Sheep are expensive!

I want you all to know that, IMHO, at times some of these money generating methods get a little out of hand but the sheep are dependant on them if we want to grow more sheep and have more tags. Moderation is the key. We don't want to grow lots of sheep just so we can auction off all the tags. We're more on the same page than you might guess.

We have spent tons of money, as a State, and our sheep numbers still just sputter along. Some areas are doing well and others have been hit hard by desease, predation and drought.
I don't have all the answers and I suppose no one does but it helps to hear other's opinion.

Stay interested, stay involved, stay willing to help and we'll all find a way to contribute.

Zeke
 
I totally agree with your points about the average deer hunter, and raising money for sheep. I appreciate your insight Zeke...

Thank You! I will always do what I can, with time and money for sheep!

Tallbuck1
 
Zeke define average deer hunter and define what constitutes seeing sheep. I have seen a ton of sheep from my truck. Granted that was on winter range, I have seen a heck of a lot more by boat (lake powell and flaming gorge), and even more hoofing it into the back country. I guess the reason I ask is because if your average deer hunter drives the road for 2 hours a day and calls it a hunt after two days then yes they won't see sheep, but if your average deer hunter is constantly driving roads then they probably will see sheep sooner or later. I have seen them in the strangest places while driving, like by strawberry, eureka utah, crossing high way 89 by indianola, and so on.
 
88,
I'm not for a minute looking down my nose at "average" deer hunters.... Whatever that really is. I was just making a point.
Tell me you're "average" and I'll laugh out loud! The average hunter doesn't think hunting 24/7 like you do!
Like I've said before "average" is impossible to define but and it's NOT guys on MM.
Best,
Zeke
 
I am still waiting for Trammer to come back and share his thoughts. Can somebody track him down? You can't start a discussion without at least offering your two cents.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Bowtech Destroyer
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
 
Tram will be back.
He's a busy guy but I'm sure he won't leave us hangin'. He's probably down looking at sheep! Like I said, few guys get out more than him.
I have a buddy who is down looking this week in a unit he should draw. ...and here we sit!
Zeke
 
I have a buddy who is
down looking this week in
a unit he should draw.
...and here we sit!

Zeke



can you say JEALOUS!!! Will he share pics when he gets back just to rub it in??? :)

Tallbuck1
 
Me too Mr Tall, and here we are and there he is! LOL

If/when he gets some pics he'd darn well better share them with us all or I'll post him home phone number on MM!

His son is with him and I KNOW that kid can take some great photos. I'll threaten to post his private cell number is he doesn't share!

Zeke
 
Tallbuck is right that the claim was a little smokeblown. Don is known to be a little like P.T. Barnum when he is focused on a project. But you cant blame Don for the decline. Don is to be credited with infusing millions of dollars into the wildsheep effort during the last 20 years. The problem with both the SFW and UFNAWS efforts is they focus mainly in 2 places, Fundraising and Transplants. More accurately, one place, transplants, because I have yet to see wildsheep eat money.Yet in spite of all the money and effort, Utah residents can look forward to 30 or 6 less Desert Sheep tags in the draw than we had 10 years ago.
I think Tallbuck is on the right track again when he asks: why have Rockys done better? An even better question is: Why have Calis done the best? The answer is predators, more specifically Lions.
Californias have done the best especially in Units where there are no Lions. Californias on antelope island and Newfoundlands have exploded in numbers primarily because they are not exposed to lions.
But the problem is not so much with the predators as it is with the people who manage them. I am one who thinks we are suppose to have Government Hunters and Trappers reduce or eliminated large cats in certain places.That is why I get so mad when Utah DWR does such stupids things: like double the number of doughnut eaters rather than Trappers.Desert Sheep are poised to explode in numbers in most units if we can literally get the Lions off their backs.I am sure coyotes get their fair share of the lambs as well but Lion predation is the primary cause.
Utah doesnt get it, we moved sheep to Nebo 25 years ago and the Lions got em all, and so we move sheep there again,....Similarly we did a transplant into Long Canyon in the Escalante 15 years ago and the Lions got em all, and so we transplant Long Canyon again this year. Any bets whether Lions were eliminated from the area first?
I am sure there are other factors as well. I would like to know the truth about the San Rafael. If disease is really a factor. Another pet peeve of mine is the current practice by Utah DWR of hiding relevant information from Sheep Hunters and the devastating effect it has on the sheep.
Sheep hunter own and should have access to all the information about their unit that the DWR has. Nevada does that: when you draw a tag in Nevada NDOW tells you everything they know about your unit. In Utah, you are left guessing as all the information is hidden from you. It does not surprise me that Utahs Desert Sheep program started its nose dive at exactly the same time as it privatized and privileged the knowledge about the sheep. In Utah you may settup up your Sheep Camp along side another Camp that has full access to guzzler locations, current full survey data as well as a list of past hunters and their phone numbers. You will just be screwed as you try to hunt along side other hunters who have access to information about the Unit that will not be given to you.
When this information was withheld from the Sheep Hunters by (the poacher) Jim Karpowitz was when Ram Age harvest started to plummet. The plummet caused units to be overharvested which caused ram numbers to drop and the cycle to worsen. Another problem occurred when successful time proven Outfitters were subjected to regulatory hassle, many of them were put out of business to make room for a new class of priveledged (DWR connected)Outfitters. The DWR Biologists who also had access to all the information settup Utah WildSheep Outfitting business' and used their Government power to run most of their unconnected
competitors out of business.
And in adding unsult to injury even more layers of regulations were added to Outfitters by the DWR in the form of licensing, with the price of their services doubling in the last 10 years. Sheep lose, Sheep Hunters lose. Sheep Hunters and Conservationists are doing their part The DWR isnt. Its time the Utah DWR put Sheep and Sheep Hunters back on top and forgot about their own self serving interest.
 
Ahhh yeah, predators. I guess I should have known.

While predation can be a serious problem in establishing sheep populations the sheep have to hit that threshold where they can sustain the loss to predators. Removal of predators before a release and selective removal thereafter can be very beneficial in reaching that threshold. But the simple fact is, the sheep are going to have to live with the predators. Nevada has many units with lions and some of them don't have much in the way of alternative prey species like deer. In MOST cases the sheep have found that sweet spot.

In the late 1970s, when Nevada's sheep program started to get real wings, there were around 100 tags, all in those old traditional desert sheep units in southern Nevada. In 2013 we had 365 desert tags available. More than half of those are in units where the populations have been re established since the 70s. Nevada currently offers more sheep tags than any other state in the lower 48! How did it happen? Many reasons.

For one, a ton of private money has been raised, mostly by volunteers, which has been spent to move a lot of sheep around and develop water for sheep. The vast majority of that water was, and still is, developed by volunteers. Sheep captures are done with manpower assistance from volunteers. Sheep are monitored by volunteers. Legislation and regulation is fostered and shepherded (pun intended) by volunteers. Notice how many times the V word shows up. I could name names but that wouldn't be fair if I left some out. They know who they are.

We also have had, and continue to have, some of the finest, most enthusiastic, dedicated wildlife biologists in the world on the staff of NDOW.

As for the guide issue... really? I can't see how that could have any effect on sheep populations the way you tell it. Maybe I'm missing something.

You guys do things differently over there. Yes, all our information on guzzlers is available. Population estimates and details are available. Past harvest data is available. Why isn't it in Utah? That doesn't seem right to me and if a certain organization is to blame perhaps it's time for a regime change.

Just my thoughts.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-09-14 AT 06:51PM (MST)[p]Zeke, thanks for clarifying. I am glad you could see I was just curious and not trying to start a internet fight. Your A+ for that. I wanted to chime in to Trammers post. I feel cutting off guides with information/the public is a horrid idea. The simple fact is, taking a 8 year old sheep when a known 10 year old is wondering around just killed 2 sheep with one tag. Most hunters who can't afford a guide probably will be more prone to take a younger less mature sheep then the area holds because of the lack of information. I know they used to give age data like it was candy, I have to search and search for it now. Why is that if a unit is holding a 10 year old age minimum year end and year out I am not going to shoot that 7-8 year old sheep unless its injured and the last day. The same goes for a 6-7 year old average, I won't go out expecting a 10 year old sheep if for the last ten years the oldest ram was 6-7 years old. The fish and lame need to start giving the public, this public information they have without hassle. It will improve the hunting for not only sheep but everything else too. Say the Thousand Lakes Unit is producing 2-3 year old bucks as its average I sure am not going to hold out for a older looking deer, but at the same time I won't drop a spike first thing. Secondly I would not go for a unit only producing 1-2 year old deer. I have taken these younger bucks and yes they taste better but lets face it the wife likes to jerky the whole thing anyways. Okay back on topic I feel the fact they withhold this information is due to the fact that they have mismanage the herds and they want to hide it, because the younger age of animals harvested would show this.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-09-14 AT 10:32PM (MST)[p]A couple questions:

How many DESERT sheep permits are allocated to Sportsmen for Wildlife for "sale" to the public, and to what DIRECT cause is the greater percentage of such raised funds generated toward the propogation and perpetuation of DESERT wild sheep in Utah? Examples please, if anyone happens to have them.

Secondly, if Utah is so persistent with their transplant agenda, why wouldn't they implement a provision for aggressive lion control within the newly populated habitats?

Seems rather counter productive, no? See AZ's recent planting of sheep into the Catalinas and the subsequent cougar predation on their numbers as an example.

Please forgive my ignorance regarding Utah's Sheep Program...I know absolutely nothing about it.

Though I do know that my own State was able to delist (state listed, not fed) the Desert Sheep here in NM, and provide significantly greater hunter opportunity; primarily due to the sale of ONE Auction Permit, and ONE Raffle Permit, purveyed by WSF/FNAWS, which provides very substantial, and needed, augmenting of general State generated/federal funds.

That, and VERY aggressive cougar control within those "new" Desert Sheep ranges; by means of both contracted Government trappers, and a liberal season/limit for Citizen Hunters.

I would be grateful for any meaningful answers.

** edit---NO propaganda please :)

Thanks,

Adam
 
put the time and money in elk and deer, sheep are not working , and it is not for lack of money. all we are doing is feeding kitty kats.
 
aggressive cougar control, now that's more like it,,,, but you have to do it before, they eat the sheep.?
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-10-14 AT 10:07AM (MST)[p]Guys, another stupid question that I think I know the answer to, but I wanted to get your opinions.

This is a paragraph out of the UDWR's Desert Bighorn Sheep Statewide Management Plan (page 8). Found on the DWR's website.

Mountain lion populations should be managed at levels which will allow for the establishment of viable bighorn populations and allow bighorn population objectives to be met. That may require removal of mountain lions which are negatively impacting bighorn populations until herds are well established. In established small herds where mountain lion harvest is typically low or non-existent because of topography and access, a consistent effort to improve mountain lion harvest opportunity may need to be considered. These efforts could include not closing sheep units to harvest (i.e., no quotas) and maintaining a liberal policy of removing lions on sheep units when there is opportunity. In some cases, the use of USDA Wildlife Services or other contracted personnel may also be needed to help control cougar populations. Bighorn sheep unit management plans and predator management should specify conditions for predator management in bighorn areas.

I remember when Rockys were transplanted to the Stansbury's the DWR did a big push on lion control in order to help establish the sheep. Are things like this done with Desert Big Horns prior to a transplant, and when lions are impacting sheep herds does anyone know if there are "emergency" lion hunts to help the sheep herd?

Brad and anyone else who has info, what is the opinion on current Mountain Lion population and quota for areas that you hunt or scout DBH? Do you see many lions with your time in sheep country? Does more need to be done, and if yes what?


Tallbuck1
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-10-14 AT 11:21PM (MST)[p]I have no "soap box agenda" in this little sheep fray but I will drop my opinion since the original post was soliciting such.
WE are the culprit to the sheep demise.
Wild Bighorn (Deserts and Rocky) sheep roamed this country numbering millions until European settlers entered the scene. Those folks loved the taste of sheep so they slaughtered them every chance they got. Worse yet they introduced domestic Sheep and goats, equaling DEATH to Bighorn sheep. (Notice the thin horns, Dall/Stones escaped the plague of domestics because of their remote locations) Almost overnight Bighorn numbers plummeted to near extinction.
IMO DISEASE which comes from contact with domestic sheep is what keeps limiting Utah's deserts sheep. When an event happens it wipes out a herd, (recent examples N. San Rafael, Dirty Devil, San Juan, Potash, Escalante) all showing signs of pneumonia at one time or another and all dropping in numbers very quickly. And those sheep that do survive events are often carriers who can down the road infect other sheep (dirty sheep).
Cougars are also a factor for sure. The law to control them was a specific response to some tragic transplant results. But cats are difficult, at best to control in desert sheep country. Nobody is taking dogs into most desert sheep haunts to hunt cats. There has been a $1000 bounty on any lion killed in the Escalante for years, but very few hunters have collected a check.
And while the Newfy and Antelope Island herds don't have cougar problems, they also don't have domestics to contend with either.
Volunteers also man our transplant teams, although we came within a cat's whisker of killing a couple this year because of them being too close to the choppers at the wrong time. (DWR nightmare).
And GW, According to the conservation tag lists published on the DWR website, SFW gets 0 sheep tags to sell.
UFNAWS gets 5 desert tags to raise money for sheep programs.
Also on the DWR website, Utah is proposing issuing 40 desert tags this year. 37 to residents and 3 NRs.
There is no question that Utah is struggling to grow desert sheep herds, but we are not alone in our battles. Nevada is going through a horrific event right now and all but lost their prized Rocky herd. Montana, Idaho and Wyoming have cut tags as well.
The problem is sheep are fragile! Period. Studies are recently finding new information about sheep diseases, but they are still years, maybe decades away from pinning down a solution. Everyone wants sheep herds to grow, and I think everyone, including the UDWR is trying their best to find a fix.
That's my 2pennies!
 
+1 LBH
Same song, second verse!
Disease, predation, habitat.
It takes money, time, dedication and the "V" word.
We're lucky to have so many people interested and involved!
Amen,
Zeke
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-11-14 AT 11:40AM (MST)[p]Thanks for the clarification Rick, I'd always been under the impression that SFW was awarded permits to sell...perhaps they were in the past. Glad to hear that all UT Desert conservation incentive opportunities are being handled by Wild Sheep.

Excellent points about disease as well; I didn't realize that so many populations in your state had been so affected. It IS a very scary deal, that can strike almost ANYwhere, ANYtime, with exponentially devastating results. Several of NM's early efforts at restoring bighorn to historic ranges were thwarted/negated by contact with domestics and subsequent infection of the wild animals. If I remember correctly, the recent CA desert epidemic was sourced to a dumping of domestic carcasses that had perished in transport along I-40 between Needles and Barstow. Something similar could happen really just about anywhere. SCARY!

I'd imagine that some of those areas you mention with cougar 'bounties' are just not very conducive to running lions due to extremes of terrain? Unfortunately, there are many places wild sheep call home that are just not practical to run hounds in.

Interesting discussion, thanks.

Adam
 
LittleBighorn, I have tried to be open minded about the disease issue. But what you are saying is: with disease basically being little or no problem in utah for 20 years. (Yes the North San Juan has seen some disease but hasnt had a hunter for 30 years)You are saying that we had an outbreak simultaneously in most of our units.

That just is not possible. The Dirty Devil is separated from the potash by the Green River with no known travel between the two. The Dirty Devil is 50 air miles from the North San Rafael sheep that have little to no travel in or out of the unit. Similarly the Escalante sheep only interact with other waterpocket fold Sheep in Capital Reef NP. I am saying that disease may be a factor in some of the units. But its not even possible for a disease event to show up concurrently in 5 units that dont interact with one another.

Littlebighorn I see cougars chasing sheep all the time. Note the time I saw a female cat teaching her cubs how to hunt sheep in the North San Rafael in 2002. Now go look at the surveys before and after that. Lamb numbers plummeted on all surveys from 2002 on. Cat food.The beginning of the end is when lambs are not surviving. The beginning of the end for the rams and the sheephunters is when the age of harvested rams drop.

Elkun, I am hoping you can graduate from elk to sheep someday.
They say there are Sheephunters and then theres Everybody else.

Tallbuck whenever I report seeing lions chasing sheep to the Utah DWR I always have a fantasy about them telling me to mark the spot I last saw the lion and that there will be a houndsman there within a couple of hours to pick up the scent...that doesnt happen....I get lip service...then my call gets pooh poohed away. I for one think DWR should respond with hounds as Urgently as they would respond if I reported someone poaching a ram.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-11-14 AT 02:11PM (MST)[p]"The beginning of the end is when lambs are not surviving. The beginning of the end for the rams and the sheephunters is when the age of harvested rams drop."

Trammer, this is an observation with which I could not agree more. I remember having a conversation on here years ago, and expressed my incredulity at some of Utah's sheep units having a mean age of harvested rams at 5 years! I emphasized the importance of age class, and was actually ridiculed by some who proclaimed that I was "taking it too seriously". Others became angry and insisted that it was the hunter's tag, and they should shoot whatever the hell they wanted to...I was actually pretty shocked :)

Not to derail your thread, but this is my greatest concern over the implementing of the res/nonres quota in NM. Residents rarely hire guides, and have displayed in the harvest record over time a majority propensity for killing young rams. And NMGF flat out REFUSES to implement a mandatory sheep hunter's orientation program, claiming it is 'alienating', or some such rubbish. So we at our state chapter of Wild Sheep are working on having an orientation available in some form to permit holders as soon as possible.

Anyway, like I said, interesting discussion, thanks.

Adam
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-11-14 AT 05:40PM (MST)[p]The current desert bighorn permits include 40 tags given in the draw, 2 tags given through the Hunt Expo, and 6 tags auctioned by FNAWS and SCI. 8 desert bighorn tags are given outside the draw. SFW and FNAWS work very closely in Utah and there is no way SFW would compete with FNAWS to auction sheep permits.

No doubt predators are taking many sheep. Disease is huge issue. I worry about how transplants are introducing different diseases into herds. As far as permits go, it seems some hunters are a problem. Look at how many times there is a permit increase recommended and some lobby against the increase. The Zion this year is a good example with more sheep than ever, a recommended increase of 4 permits and the sky is falling for some sheep outfitters/hunters. Too bad they are such a fragile species making it so many will never get to hunt them.
 
The figure of 36 resident tags in the draw 10 years ago vs 30 now is generally accurate. Last year we had 36 tags of which 6 were Zion tags.Because the truth is 6 tags should have been, but were not issued in the Zion Unit 10 years ago. I suppose I should have noted 36 tags currently and 36 that should have been 42 10 years ago had the Zions sheep been "discovered". Resident tags are down net 6 possibly more if you also were to consider the Henrys. And all of this, even after all of the imports.

Non existent Lion control program and corrupt Utah DWR that acts like the decision makers themselves own the sheep and the rights to guide and outfit for them,
rather than the public.
 
I generally agree but when we look at any "import" more recent than 8 years they haven't even had time to produce a class IIII ram yet.
The next 5 years will tell if the transplants are becoming a net gain in tags issued.
The influx of new genes is a benefit yet there is always the concern about introduction of disease.
Either way, the lions comtinue to be a huge issue (I don't doubt trammer for one minute). We need trapping in areas where hounds cannot run and where they can run they should be employed as a real tool.
It's been an excellent thread and some real food for thought and action.
Thanks Trammer.
Zeke
 
, trammer . sorry but sheep and turkey hold no magic for me, but I am glad it does for you, next time you see mr, kitty cat, trying to eat mr, big horns . kill the sob, it will make the sheeps and my day.
 
So, Utah FNAWS is NOT a chapter of WSF? But rather, if I am interpreting correctly, yet another entity of Don Peay's?

If such is true, well, that would change my perspective quite a bit...

Who endorses whom? Where do the the MAJORITY of the raised funds go?

Also, what is the REAL record of disease induced depopulation of Utah's wild sheep herds? If anyone has any FACTUAL information of such?

Seems that some on here would rather play ring around the monkey eh?

Thanks,

Adam
 
It is kinda like this---

We have the Larry H. Miller Auto group (multiple dealerships)

and of similar like business...

We have the Don Peay Con. Org group (multiple Con. Orgs and 'franchised into other states')

Both the Auto group and the Con Org. group are legal and legitimate, completely separate/different nothing in common with each other.

Robb
 
Thanks for the PM's and Emails..


YES--- I did indeed forget Don's 'BGF--Con Org Group--$$'..my bad---

Big Game Forever $cam......

Robb

PS-anyone have $FW-Wyoming Tax Report?----thx
 
Based on our experience in NM, you can release as many desert sheep as you want, but until you start hammering the crap out of lions all you are doing is feeding lions.

See chart. The first time I saw it I was shocked.

We have two full time sheep biologists and they have done an incredible job and have been incredibly successful. We have a wildly successful sheep program in NM. We have gone from 1 Public draw permit in one huntable desert herd to 16 permits in 6 separate herds. I am no sheep expert but it sure seems to be heading in the right direction. If size is what you are after we may have the best Desert Sheep hunting in the world. Our auction Desert Sheep Permit went for $270,000 this year.

There were many contributors to our Desert Bighorn success, WSF, Ted Turner and Armendaris Ranch are high on the list.

I'd say find out what we are doing and do that.
 
1565image.jpg
 
abqbw, Thank you for the great information. Nice to learn that NM F&G gets it and Desert Sheep are skyrocketing in your state.

GreatWestern, you too raise a great point. What does Utah DWR officially have to say about disease in Utahs Desert Sheep. I think they have about the same to say as they do about other aspects of Utahs WildSheep program. Not Much, or Its A Secret or we dont release that information to the public.

Like I said about 10 years ago Utah DWR quit answering to their bosses (the Taxpayers, Citizens and Sportman)and act like they personally own the sheep and they will not answer to anyone about them.

The outrageous Official answer I got from the Head Biologist for the San Rafael in 2009 about the plummeting numbers of Sheep was "ATV use, we actually think that the sheep are still there somewhere in the unit but we think that people on ATVs who are not staying on designated routes have pushed then into new country and we cant find them" This is the same buffoon biologist that I called when I was looking threw my rifle scope at 3 Lions that were in with and part of a band of wildsheep. I had called to get permission to kill the lions and was angry when he told me not to.

We have heard precious little real data on disease here in Utah and dont expect to hear much more.
 
Trammer a good ole boy gave me some good advice when it comes to coyotes, lions, and bears. Shoot dig and shut up! He told me this is how they would run up around strawberry back in the day before soldier creek was there when they still had the camps (he worked out of the clark camp) he said if you can see a lion, coyote, or bear there are too many. Maybe that old way of doing things was wrong but after looking at the animals he killed back in the 60's, 70's, 80's and the one from the 90's maybe he has a point. We should go after these things like stick on poo.
 
So get this. The Utah DWR websight lists 22 wildlife "diseases of concern" and none of them are wildsheep disease.
You have the most important species that is notoriously disease prone and according to the Utah DWR, wildsheep disease appears to have officially fallen between the cracks.
In Utah, for the most part, we have been led believe that the die off is primarily disease related, perhaps because predator control is part of the Bighorn Sheep management plan. So for the DWR to admit that the Lions are the problem would be for them to admit. We are failing at our job.

So they direct the sheep hunting community toward disease and officially wildsheep diseases are of no concern.

How convenient.


Grand Slam #911
 
>So get this. The Utah DWR
>websight lists 22 wildlife "diseases
>of concern" and none of
>them are wildsheep disease.
> You have the most
>important species that is notoriously
>disease prone and according to
>the Utah DWR, wildsheep disease
>appears to have officially fallen
>between the cracks.
> In Utah, for the
>most part, we have been
>led believe that the die
>off is primarily disease related,
>perhaps because predator control is
>part of the Bighorn Sheep
>management plan. So for the
>DWR to admit that the
>Lions are the problem would
>be for them to admit.
>We are failing at our
>job.
>
> So they direct the sheep
>hunting community toward disease and
>officially wildsheep diseases are of
>no concern.
>
> How convenient.
>
>
> Grand Slam #911

Wondering if the current lion population in these areas and lack of acknowledgement of disease you bring up Brad has been addressed and if there is any sort of documentation from any of the parties involved. Anybody know if there has been any communication from some of the large conservation groups in Utah funding sheep transplants.


Maybe some emails or phone calls of concern need to be expressed to UDWR people from the sheep hunting community. Or maybe our concerns need to be sent to Utah FNAWS and have them bring it up with the DWR.

thoughts???

Tallbuck1
 
They are sticking their heads in the sand about disease. The sad question is though, WHAT could they do about disease? It's such a difficult thing to have any positive effect on. If the diseases are coming from domestic sheep interactions then good luck stopping that. And that may be why they don't acknowledge the diseases themselves. Its a political snake den.

[font color="blue"]I don't make the soup,
I just stir it.[/font]
 
A closer look at the actual numbers reveals that the situation is actually worse than I had mentioned. I erred in claiming 35 current resident tags. There are only 30. I made a mistake and included the 5 nonresidents.

But the best comparison is to look at the specific sheep units that were on line 10 years ago there were 35 tags. Today in those same units there are 22. Perhaps more accurately only 20 because the Virgin River unit is actually down in numbers on the Utah side of the border but Utah issues 3 tags now compared with only 1 ten years ago. Utah basically decided to issue 2 additional ambush tags where Utah hunters take 2 Arizona rams when they wander across the border. That could have been done 10 years ago as well.

The real bottom line is Utah has only 20 resident tags where they once had 35. So we are actually down 15 Desert Sheep tags with only 20 remaining! That is a 43% decline in what was an up trend.
 
Last year was my first year getting into this sheep hunting phenom. That said, I spent a bunch of time down on the Escalante unit with my buddy trying to get him a ram. I saw about as many lion tracks as I did sheep. I have spent hundreds and hundreds of days in the Utah mountains chasing animals and I cannot add up all the lion tracks or lion sightings in my life to what I saw on the Escalante in a couple trips. That said, the unit is extremely remote and I don't see how houndsmen can help much down there. I do think that the lions are going to continue doing what they want down there just because of the isolation of the unit.

We found a few rams but no old ones and we came home empty handed but with a world of amazing experiences to remember. We have also heard that the other hunter shot the only ram that his guide could turn up and I don't think that it was super old. I can't vouch for that though as I just heard it through the vines. Maybe Sagehunter29 can tell us all about his Escalante hunt?!

Just my opinion but it would seem that guys like Trammer and the others that are constantly in these populations of sheep would be the best resources for learning how to help the sheep out. I was excited to hear about the Escalante sheep transfer but I now am a little skeptical to how it will turn out. I think the SFW and DWR guys are trying to look good in our eyes by continuing to dump sheep into Utah but if there are underlying problems that aren't being fixed to help these herds out, we are just wasting money and sheep. My two cents...
 
Last year was my first year getting into this sheep hunting phenom. That said, I spent a bunch of time down on the Escalante unit with my buddy trying to get him a ram. I saw about as many lion tracks as I did sheep. I have spent hundreds and hundreds of days in the Utah mountains chasing animals and I cannot add up all the lion tracks or lion sightings in my life to what I saw on the Escalante in a couple trips. That said, the unit is extremely remote and I don't see how houndsmen can help much down there. I do think that the lions are going to continue doing what they want down there just because of the isolation of the unit.

We found a few rams but no old ones and we came home empty handed but with a world of amazing experiences to remember. We have also heard that the other hunter shot the only ram that his guide could turn up and I don't think that it was super old. I can't vouch for that though as I just heard it through the vines. Maybe Sagehunter29 can tell us all about his Escalante hunt?!

Just my opinion but it would seem that guys like Trammer and the others that are constantly in these populations of sheep would be the best resources for learning how to help the sheep out. I was excited to hear about the Escalante sheep transfer but I now am a little skeptical to how it will turn out. I think the SFW and DWR guys are trying to look good in our eyes by continuing to dump sheep into Utah but if there are underlying problems that aren't being fixed to help these herds out, we are just wasting money and sheep. My two cents...
 
Thank You Foxskinner, I do think that Lions can be removed anywhere it just takes money and work. Huge bountys, Dedicated well planned sorties after snow storms and trapping programs could remove all the lions in the Escalante in 1 year. The lions would come back gradually over time to be sure.Just as sure that the sheep decline could be reversed in short order with an aggressive lion removal program.

It does seem to me, that sheep units go through a sort of lion free honeymoon of about 10 years after they pioneer new country but lions almost always find them and when they do they quickly become the prey of choice for the big cats.I dont fully understand why, but sheep (that are faster and more agile and live in rougher country)are easier for lions to catch than muledeer.

The bad news in Utah also is that the Honeymoon is over in the Zions unit. I spent most of this week scouting in the Zions and captured footage of 2 lions.
 
Guys,

Did you hear that blurb in the Wildlife Board meeting last week about the helicopter that went down in southern Utah and how they were down there doing controlled lion hunts on the Escalante unit to help out sheep herds?

That is all that was mentioned so I was hoping that someone else heard something or knows more.



Tallbuck1
 
Okay I will play along here----



"The real bottom line is Utah has only 20 resident tags where they once had 35. So we are actually down 15 Desert Sheep tags with only 20 remaining! That is a 43% decline in what was an up trend."


So in my follow up of Con. Org tag$.....not seeing a 40+ % reduction-----

None of them have been reduced in Years.

Am I wrong/missing something here?

Thanks,

Robb
 
PleaseDear, not only that, but the sheep numbers being in decline has been during the same time frame as the bulk of Conservation Tags have been issued. So I get what you are saying. As far as the Conservation Tag program is concerned, it has been a total failure for wildsheep. No sheep have been produced by it and Utah residents have lost a lot of Tags to the program.

Grand Slam #911
 
after watching a few rare videos of Mountain Lions preying on ungulates I think I know why Desert sheep are easy prey for Lions. It has to do with Lion Predator Strategy being a four step process.

First the lion has to catch and get a bite on the neck of the ungulate. Second, the lion has to execute a take down. Third, while on the ground the lion needs to get a bite on the wind pipe of the prey and after cutting off its oxygen, the lion eventually seals the deal by covering the preys nose and mouth with its own mouth. This makes it impossible for the prey to breathe...Game over.

The superiority of the Wildsheeps Antipredator Strategy ends after the first step. Mule deer weigh about 275# and a Ram Desert Sheep about 165#. Even more important is the neck size of a big muley is 27 inches and a Desert Ram is only 17 inches. Desert Sheep not only are lightweights but they have very small necks. So for a lion, taking one down is easier than a mule deer and way easier than an elk.

This too explains why Desert Sheep are more vulnerable to lion predation than Rockys or Calis. Rockys weigh the same and have the same size neck as mule deer and weigh about twice as much as a lion. Deserts weigh about the same as a lion.
 
Sheep, particularly Desert Sheep live in the most remote, rugged and forbidding country on earth. They face extreme conditions, poor feed, lack of water, easy access to lions and are constantly sought by hunters. On two occasions I have seen sheep almost fall to their death by an accidental bump from another sheep. One ram almost went over a 500 foot cliff, hung on all straddled out and slowly inched up. Just the wrong breath and he'd be raven bait. Speaking of ravens my friend Mike Hirschi who killed the Utah record book archery desert big horn a couple of years ago, watched a raven nearly push a ram over a cliff. Eagle regularly knock sheep and particularly lambs off cliffs. Sheep are also very susceptable to diseases carried by other animals including deer and domestic animals, particularly domestic sheep and goats. The large die offs are usually from some kind of contact with domestic animals. In our forays guiding sheep hunts and scouting we find several dead heads from lion kills each year. Lions in sheep habitat are nearly impossible to control and love sheep. My advice is when you draw a sheep permit in utah carry a harvest objective lion permit and stack every one you can legally harvest. You will save a dozen or more sheep a year, plus some big bucks.
 
a little follow up. I just learned that 4 Ram pickups have already been found on the same ridge as the Lion sighting in the Zion Unit. 4 rams all in 1 square mile.
 
ARE YOU SERIOUS! That is a darn shame! Thank you for keeping us up to date! Any photos or aging on the deadheads?

I think something needs to be done to curb that sort of thing. Too bad one of the major con groups couldn't step up some funds to collar the lions to help track them and see what they are killing. I am suprised that some BIO student at USU or somewhere hasn't proposed this already.

SOMETHING NEEDS TO BE DONE, the sheep need all the help we can give them. If we are isolating them from domestic sheep to protect the herd from disease and other aliments, then something needs to be done to help with predators!

There needs to be a call for action!



Tallbuck1
 
I have seen 3 of the 4 pickups. They are an 8 year old would be state record that scored 179, a 7 year old ram that scores about 170 and a 4 year old ram. All too young for natural death. The worst part is that a Sheep biologist also told me there are some domestic sheep running with the wild sheep on the same ridge.

There have been wild goats that I know of that have been in the Zion but this is the first I have heard that domestic sheep are on the mountain. Even with that myself and the biologist think the four rams are likely lion kills...the alternative is worse...Also of note, when I told the Biologist that I would kill the domestics if I see them. He told me not too, because it would be illegal.This again bespeaks of the larger problem where our Game Managers themselves are so tied up in BS Laws and regulations they cant even do their job. We both agreed the domestics should be shot in sight.
 
Something needs to be done! We need to send out emails to UDWR, UFNAWS and other conservation Groups asking for them to use their mighty power to get this kinda garbage done with. If they can buy out dom sheep allotments on Oak Creek to get sheep there, they should be able to flex their muscle with emergency action to alleviate lion problems and dom sheep issues.

Who can we start talking to, emailing, and letting our voice be heard so they know that we cannot or will not tolerate this kinda of stuff with how much private money is spent to keep sheep on the mountain.


Tallbuck1
 
I thought Utah just hired a FG Employee.
His only job is to watch over Desert Sheep.
Does anyone know who this is?
Can we get a meeting with him, or get him on this forum to discuss the plan?

When I hunted the Zions in 2010, I found 2 Lion killed sheep. Both were Ewes, but last I checked, all Rams came from Ewes at one time :)

Conservation tags have done more damage than good for Desert Sheep hunting:
-Eliminated many tags from the draw
-Allowed them to buy sheep and send them off for Lion food.
-Lulled us into believing something was being done.

The only reason for Conservation Sheep tags?
-Keep several wealthy guys interested in attending banquets so others have jobs, and can get a piece of their money.
 
Agreed, Where can we get a hold of the Sheep Bio?
Anyone know if Utah FNAWS (Adam Bronson) is aware of the newest issue? Some emails need to be sent out, and NO napkin meetings can be held on this issue. Something has to be done, and quickly to help the sheep. Stuff like this chaps my hide!



Tallbuck1
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-17-14 AT 01:23PM (MST)[p]I was just made aware that the feral goat that has been seen on the mountain was actually killed yesterday by the UDWR. They tried to locate it last fall by helicopter but could never find it. Luckily someone spotted the goat while scouting last weekend and reported it. Yesterday the biologist was able to relocate and shoot the goat with the use of the UHP helicopter. They took samples from the goat and submitted it the lab for a disease profile. The goat has been living with the sheep for some time now so there is some concern that it my have transmitted diseases to the sheep. However it was noted that the sheep that the goat has been hanging around all had great lambing success this year so it looks like we may have dodged a bullet with this one. But keep an eye out for sick sheep while scouting.

Cougars are for sure making a mark on those sheep down there. When I was down there a couple weeks ago I came across two dead heads in one draw (one ewe and one 3-4 year old ram). I do know that UFNAWS did payout 4 or 5 cougar bounties in 2013 for the Zion unit alone. Most sheep units are within harvest objective cougar units so everyone should pick up a tag. I only wish the season was year round so we could pack a rifle around while scouting just in case you run into one.
 
I have refrained from jumping on here and clearing up several erroneous claims, and statements, and so "facts" made by some, simply to avoid the potential back and forth on some hunting website. My contact info is easy to get so call or email me with your questions or concerns vs shout here that nothing is being done for Utah sheep. Contact me and get some facts before spewing inaccurate information about Utah's sheep herds and the lack of effort by UFNAWS or the UDWR to manage Utah's sheep. I'm always open to discuss solutions to better Utah's sheep program. I think of sheep and ways to get and keep more of them in Utah, everyday, many times a day.
We are a small conservation organization with one fundraising banquet each year and don't have full time paid staff to go to work for Utah sheep every day 365. However, there is a lot more being done than most realize on a weekly, monthly, and annual basis for sheep management here in Utah. We don't have a monthly newsletter, nor could we afford to print one to keep everyone informed up to the minute about our goings on, $$ spent, and donated time to try and make Utah's sheep herds better in the future than they are today. As the new UFNAWS President, I'll do my best to hit the highlights in our few newsletters each year to keep our members and other Utah sheep lovers informed. Some of you here have made statements about me, UFNAWS, etc so lets set a few facts straight about this thread.
One effort we've made is that for the past 3 years since I got more involved in UFNAWS as their "staff biologist" and now President, I've traveled the state on field trips with DWR, BLM, and Forest Service personnel and discussed sheep issues, concerns, transplants, on the ground in every region of the state 1-2 times per year. A lot of time and collaboration goes in to moving sheep into or within the state, and these meetings help lay out the logistics to make it all happen, as well as allow for discussion of prescriptive measures to keep what sheep we currently have out on the mountains. UFNAWS stepped up and funded the full time bighorn sheep and goat biologist for the DWR, something we think is crucial for Utah sheep, given their fragile nature. Nothing stays the same with sheep herds it seems, there are always new or reoccurring challenges that pop up. Dustin Schaible has taken his job very seriously and has been extremely eager to help enhance and secure Utah's sheep herds. He has Utah's sheep herds on his mind everyday.
UFNAWS has been involved in dozens of negotiations with buyouts and domestic sheep permit conversions that take hundreds of thousands of dollars to pull off. Bighorn sheep permit license fees don't add up to much in Utah each year, nowhere near the costs it takes to actively manage sheep populations. I am currently working on solutions to some existing domestic permit issues in the state, they take $$ plain and simple. Utah wouldn't have near the bighorn herds we have without conservation permit dollars for transplants and conversions. Most people never hear of these buyouts and bash the conservation permit program for being a failure. Something I just don't get.

Lions eat sheep yes, no question everywhere they can get their teeth into one, they'll kill it. Some units they have, and continue to have much more of an impact on sheep numbers than others. For instance the Escalante unit which now has less than 100 sheep, is nearly impossible to hunt lions with dogs, we've flown houndsmen into the unit and asked their opinion, they said it would be better off trying to trap and snare them. So over the past year and a half, UFNAWS and DWR asked and paid USDA Wildlife services trappers to go in and at least try to kill a lion or two, anything, in the Escalante. This spring, these trappers were nearly killed when their helicopter crashed while in checking snares. UFNAWS thanks them for their efforts, and hope they continue to recover. Bottom line we are trying, and will continue to try and trap lions in there until we get results.
On the Zion unit there are 700-800 sheep throughout the unit, more than there probably should be with available habitat, proximity to towns, backyard sheep, goats, etc., this is why we have been aggressive at working with the DWR and Park Service in setting up transplants to thin the herd and reduce the magnitude and threat of a disease outbreak, at the same time giving a new home to desert sheep, conservation permit dollars at work!
Along with 700-800 estimated sheep in and out of the park on the Zion, there are also thousands of wintering deer that spend half the year in sheep country, giving the lions plenty to eat. Undoubtedly, lions will eat sheep but the herd is at it's population threshold. I hate to find a lion killed sheep, ram, ewe, or lamb, it chaps me bad. They are stealing precious opportunity from a future sheep hunter. But it will happen to some degree in all sheep herds, I am committed to mitigating these losses however we can, even by offering monetary incentives for hunters to kill them in areas that get little lion harvest. The Zion and most all of our sheep herds are open quota lion units open 360+ days of the year and the quota remains open almost never filling, so anyone can buy a tag and kill a lion when they want. UFNAWS has pushed for this kind of harvest objective status on sheep units to allow hunters to kill them whenever. I personally buy a cougar tag every year just in case I see one while, guiding sheep hunters each fall on various units. Anyone could do the same. Despite sheep numbers being so high on the Zion unit, in the winter of 2013-14, UFNAWS contacted houndsmen and asked them to target the Zion unit for lions in sheep country, and we offered an additional monetary incentive to them if they killed a lion, not just treed it, took photos, and turned it loose. These houndsmen killed 5 additional lions on the Zion unit and we compensated them for doing so, all in the name of saving some sheep. So we are doing something!
There are no domestic sheep with bighorn on the Zion to my knowledge or the DWR's, not sure where Trammer gets all of his info but, I can assure you, if we knew about it, we'd be doing all we could to remove them. The threats are constant from Sprigdale, Rockville, Hilldale, Apple Valley, Kanab, and Mt. Carmel, so inevitably more interactions may happen.
There was a feral goat spotted among some bighorn by a couple different hunters on the Zion last fall. An effort was made by the DWR to fly in and find it and kill it but efforts were unsuccessful. This past weekend, I was scouting for sheep on the Zion and found the goat among some bighorn. I called the DWR from the mountain and told them I had it found. I watched it until evening and hiked out. Due to Father's day and helicopter availability, we were not able to go back until the first thing Monday morning. I flew in with the DWR and we relocated and killed it. We took nasal and blood samples to send to the lab for disease diagnostics. We are doing something!
It seems to me Trammer would like to doom and gloom Utah's sheep management efforts and excite many of you into thinking no one is doing anything about the problems. This couldn't be further from the truth. I have many more examples, like I said call or email anytime, you to Brad. Get some facts straight before making false allegations. I ask you all to get involved in Utah sheep management however you can and help find solutions to the ongoing problems sheep will unfortunately face indefinitely. They are a sensitive, "high maintenance" species that require a lot of effort to establish and maintain, this will never change. Sheep herds will build and unexpectedly fall, I hope to do my small part to make the rises higher and the falls not so low.
I welcome your comments or questions regarding Utah sheep management anytime.

Adam Bronson
Utah FNAWS President
435-531-3272
 
Good post Adam!
May you live long and prosper in UTAH FNAWS.

There's some good info for you kids! Unfortunately many of the same guys who complain the most are involved the least and bash those who do something. Just hang around MM for a while and see what I mean.

We all want the same thing but certainly have differing ideas.

Zeke
 
I'm no expert on Utah's sheep herds but I just read a Damn good response to the naysayers and critics. Mr Bronson I applaud you for your work and even more so for having the huevos to get on here and respond.

You said "They are a sensitive, "high maintenance" species that require a lot of effort to establish and maintain, this will never change. Sheep herds will build and unexpectedly fall, I hope to do my small part to make the rises higher and the falls not so low."

There is a lot of wisdom in that statement. More than many coffee shop or internet critics will ever grasp.
 
Robb,

I respect your opinion more than many on this site. So please tell me what you would like to hear from this gentleman that wouldn't be a Company Man Post? What makes it be one? Please elaborate...

[font color="blue"]I don't make the soup,I just stir it.[/font]
 
Carl,

It has never ever changed and it never ever will change---Period.

Same ole song and dance yearssss-in yearssss-out Ca$h Flow-a-go-go....

Be so very happy you live in Nv. man---

Robb
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-21-14 AT 02:26PM (MST)[p]Adam, AKA Utah Bighorns.

I totally get your frustration.
You got one of those jobs similar to law enforcement.

Lots of stress, not a whole lot you can do about crime, little appreciation.

But, I did get one interesting thing from all this.

The zion unit has a staggering number of sheep in it.

So, whats the difference between the zion unit and the other desert sheep units?

Why has the Zion unit done so well comparatively?

What can be learned from The Zion unit, and applied to the other units, to increase sheep herd success?

Clearly the Zion unit is not without predators.
Is the large number of sheep versus predator population what keeps the sheep survival rate up?

Is there a significant habitat difference in the Zion unit?


In the end, I believe that establishing new populations of ANYTHING has got to be super tough. Mistakes will be made, I know they would be if I was running things.

I applaud those who take on these responsibilities.
I also appreciate the passion of the enthusiasts.


Its wise to keep an eye out for corruption, since it finds its way into everything.
Where big money meets exclusive opportunities, you have be very cautious.
Especially with government.
But, I think you also have to realize that most of these guys are just passionate sheep fanatics who want the same thing as the rest of us.
More sheep to look at, more sheep to hunt, bigger rams, pregnant ewes. 100% survival rates for young sheep.
 
Adam,

I hope that by my comments you did not think that I was bashing you or UtahFWNAWS. I was just wondering if the group was involved and if not we needed to inform to see if there was something that could be done.

I applaud you for your efforts now and in the past for helping keep sheep on the mountain and to maintain the prestige that they have among us.

Again, thank you for your comments and clarity, and continued help! Glad to know someone is on the good graces with the UDWR to help out!




Tallbuck1
 
Adam, Thank You for the great post. You do make it seem like more is being done than I thought. I have always found it hard to even get lip service out of the Utah DWR. Please fact check anything I post. I work hard to only post honest accurate information. The information I received about the domestics actually running with wild sheep came from Mr. Tim Shurtliff Wildlife Manager Arizona Strip. Arizona manages the southern tip of the Mountain and 4 of the pickups as well as the domestics that are near the border. Arizona may not put much effort into the Sheep.You cant blame them. I am not sure an Arizona hunter has ever killed one. The sheep only run about a mile into Arizona. He may not appreciate it but can be reached at Flagstaff Office of The Arizona Game and Fish Department. Tim seems like a great guy who loves wildlife and works very hard.
I suggest more of Utah and Arizonas efforts get put into deregulation and interstate agreements and even interstate hunt units. Then we can shoot domestic sheep or lions with sheep anytime we see them. I would have shot a truckload of them by now especially with an unregulated bounty. As a guide and Outfitter I would even turn a Sheep hunt into a Lion hunt upon sighting one or even a fresh track. I would even write it into my hunt contract and force the Hunter to switch gears from sheep to lions if there wasnt so much legal BS involved.
 
I do have a problem with anyone who claims a "lack of funding" as the basis for any wildlife Conservation program in Utah to not be implemented.Utah is awash in money. As I already pointed out, when Utah made the bad decision to double the number of Game Wardens in the state, in one fell swoop. It added about 5 million dollars a year to the already bloated DWR budget. 5 million dollars a year, I understand to be more than double the annual amount that is returned to the state by all Conservation Organizations combined. There is plenty of funding for every Wild Sheep program.
 
Well of course they needed to double them. It took two of them to check a pile of elk meat just after we'd backpacked the first load into camp last year. One of them proceeded to tell me how clever they were to spot that meat. I asked how much "clever" it took to spot 150 lbs of fresh elk meat on the tailgate of my truck. Things went downhill from there, but try as they might, they could find no infractions. I cordially invited them back anytime and said they'd write just as many tickets next time too.

They also told me how I needed to handle the antlers/scull and I proceeded to quote the regulations to them.

I bristle when johnny law tries to be the tough guy for absolutely no reason. Treat me with respect and you get the same. Get your "cop" attitude and I'll start quoting the regulations to set ya straight.

I've had the best experiences and the worst experiences with F&G. I guess they can set the tone and I'll follow their lead.

Someone had a bad day!

Zeke

PS: Sorry for the rant but my last elk hunt experience came to mind when you said "F&G".
 
well and Utah has about enough honest, meaningful Game Warden work to justify about 1 statewide Warden.The number of Real, W/O license,State actually lost an animal poaching cases that are filed in Utah each year can be counted on your fingers. So we had about 24 too many Game Wardens and then added 25 more....So they could shake guys like you and me down and pretend to do some imaginary Wildlife Conservation... The Wildlife could actually use some results oriented help and that 20 million annual dollars could solve every problem and fully fund every meaningful program. Zeke do you know who the Buffoon was that pulled the trigger on the Warden expanse program? Or if SFW was behind or supported it?
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-25-14 AT 09:25PM (MST)[p]Guys,
No disrespect , but as a public employee, I rarely experience any genuine appreciation for what I do and I am not even in law enforcement.
Spewing poisonous comments about someone's livelihood doesn't seem to warrant even "lip service" in return and certainly doesn't lessen our sheep wows in my mind. A few months ago, I lost a dear friend who was gunned down on the roadside trying to enforce the law. And somehow your comments seem to point a finger at him too.

Somehow this thread has bounced around blaming everyone and everything with no productive resolution.

So let it be known, "IT'S MY FAULT SHEEP NUMBERS ARE NOT GROWING IN UTAH!!! I AM THE CULPRIT. YES ME!! AND HOPEFULLY I CAN THIN THE HERDS EVEN MORE!
 
I have a bitter taste in my mouth after I turned in some moose poachers two years ago and they gave the tags to the first people to call because they came upon the moose. I got those pricks video of the thing going down, the A$$'s who called in initially did not even see who shot the moose, they found the moose dead in the woods. Yet they got the tag. Seriously my tip lead to the conviction, and my video slammed the door on the conviction. Needless to say that was the first and last time I snitch someone off for UDWR, as my one buddies still pissed that I turned his cousin in. But my god if you get drunk and show me video of you poaching, then you send it to me you kind of asked for it. I better drink a red bull and get some wings here.

?If men were angels, no government would be
necessary.? John Adams
 
>LAST EDITED ON Jun-25-14
>AT 09:25?PM (MST)

>
>Guys,
>No disrespect , but as a
>public employee, I rarely experience
>any genuine appreciation for what
>I do and I am
>not even in law enforcement.
>
>Spewing poisonous comments about someone's livelihood
>doesn't seem to warrant even
>"lip service" in return and
>certainly doesn't lessen our sheep
>wows in my mind.
>A few months ago, I
>lost a dear friend who
>was gunned down on the
>roadside trying to enforce the
>law. And somehow your
>comments seem to point a
>finger at him too.
>
>Somehow this thread has bounced around
>blaming everyone and everything with
>no productive resolution.
>
>So let it be known, "IT'S
>MY FAULT SHEEP NUMBERS ARE
>NOT GROWING IN UTAH!!!
>I AM THE CULPRIT.
>YES ME!! AND HOPEFULLY
>I CAN THIN THE HERDS
>EVEN MORE!

Ok, It's your fault! ha

You have a point about thankless jobs and a GW is probably one of them.

The amount of disrespect reflected in my post isn't directed at the F&G as a whole but it was only a fraction of what I had to deal with during that encounter. There wasn't even a hint that they were gald I was there and had just killed an elk...or two... very legally. It left me shaking my head.

I know that other F&G whom I've dealt with have been so different that when I went through this I was shocked and saddened by the "attitude". I was treated like a criminal and they informed me they'd be back to follow-up with me. Follow -up for what? A successful elk hunt? It left a poo taste in my mouth.

Sorry to offend all the hard working folks out there. I guess they have a job to do and they all do it differently.

Zeke
 
LittleBigHorn, I do have respect for Law Enforcement especially when they are doing meaningful work. But too often lately they spend their time lobbying the legislature for more silly rules and laws that only function to take away sportmans rights and do nothing for wildlife.

I was commenting on the first half of Little Big Horns great post that was essentially about a lack of funding for projects that UFNAWS would like to do for the Sheep."1 banquet, No full time staff,no money to even print a newsletter" and even will a strapped budget UFNAWS had to fund the new statewide sheep specialist.

LittleBighorn, doesnt it strike you as a little odd that Utah DWR can double up on statewide Fish Cops but not afford to salary a single statewide sheep specialist. That is what this thread is about.

I have always suggested that Utah have a statewide Sheep only specialist in addition to a Sheep Water Developement Coordinator and a State Lion/predator manager for core sheep use areas and a Sheep statewide Lion Trapper for core sheep use areas and that all four of these positions be funded by the DWR regular operating budget. To create these meaningful positions would only require doing away with 4 Fish Cops...That way private organizations can use their own money for transpants and the like that are harder for the division to budget for.
 
one more thought about Lions and Sheep.
About 20 years ago, Carl Mahon told me that he surmised that after a Lion had eaten his first Sheep. The Lion preferred the taste of Sheep to any other ungulate. So the Lion would only hunt Sheep from that day forward. Basically, because of a preference for mutton over venison.
Although Carl was on the right track, his reasoning was nonsense. I think Carl was right that, after eating Sheep, Lions generally prefer to prey on Sheep. However, the reason they do so is because Sheep are easier to stalk and catch than any other ungulate. A mule deer for example has a far better nose and ears than a Sheep. Deer also stot. Sheep run. Sheep are far more intelligent than deer. Intelligence, may serve as a disadvantage to an animals anti-predator strategy. Sheep simply are easier to stalk and gain position on, than deer or other big game.
 

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