Wildlife Conservation Projects in 2020

deadibob

Very Active Member
Last month I went up our canyon to watch the dwr catch and collar bighorn sheep. My boys and I were able to help with the sheep, it was a lot of fun. Helicopter time isn't cheap and it was funded by SFW so good on them.
 

Vanilla

Very Active Member
Good start!

$880k is what percentage of what they brought in this year through expo tag and conservation tag revenue alone?
 

elkassassin

Long Time Member
Been Going on for Decades grizzly!

Bet if Most of us didn't Pay they'd have us Locked up years ago!



They judgements have already been issued. The Bundy's will have to pay, but it may not be until the death of some key players and then the seizure of assets at that point. Judgements are legal actions that don't just disappear.
 

Packout

Very Active Member
If groups are going to share what they put back on the ground in Utah then they should make sure to more clearly include their partners. The good citizenry of Utah gives the groups hundreds of permits to auction/raffle which create many of the funds which are then touted as being "put on the ground".
So props to the groups and even more props to the State of Utah (and its citizens) which supplies the source for much of the funding.
 

grizzly

Long Time Member
If groups are going to share what they put back on the ground in Utah then they should make sure to more clearly include their partners. The good citizenry of Utah gives the groups hundreds of permits to auction/raffle which create many of the funds which are then touted as being "put on the ground".
So props to the groups and even more props to the State of Utah (and its citizens) which supplies the source for much of the funding.
Yep.

I've always thought it was analogous to a guy giving me the keys and title to his truck, I go sell the truck, and then give a portion of the money back to him and keep the rest for my "projects, policies, and personnel."

Who here would think I "donated" the money back to the guy?

Who here would take me up on that offer?

And, by the way, even though it was your truck, you don't get to ask how much I made on the deal. You just have to trust that the amount I gave back to you was enough because it was more than anybody else gave to you.
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
Its great when MDF, or RMEF, or even $fw can take funds and use them to partner with other grants, or funds and do great things.

Whether that's Frag mowers, or easements, or whatever, that's great.

The 2 card Monte or slight of hand is the issue.

$880k is a lot. It's great. It will do good things.

But what did $fw do with ALL the money WE GAVE THEM.?

We gave them $3.75 on every lotto ticket. Where did that go? How much did WE give them in tax breaks for the expo? How much did WE pay DWR employees to man booths?

$3.75 x 50,000= $188,750

So that's IF their was 50k attendees, and they each only bought one ticket.

What was their real take? $300-$400k? More?
When you look at $880k and tgen figure they kept $300-$400k, that amount spent doesn't look great.

Then if you figure in what they got from the auctions. And what they get from their chapter banquets, it quickly starts to add up.

On top of that money poured in through partnerships and dues from members.

So ya. Every bit helps. And yeah, groups can circumvent some red tape.

But not all groups are equal. In fact. The group's at the expo aren't equal.

In my Opinion you had one of the best, MDF partnered with one of the worst, $fw.

So. THANKS hunters for giving all that extra to fund your passion, and for creating a nice revenue source for a select few
 

notdonhunting

Active Member
Hoss it is 880k more helping wildlife than we would have if the DWR kept all them permits and distributed them through the draw.
 

grizzly

Long Time Member
Hoss it is 880k more helping wildlife than we would have if the DWR kept all them permits and distributed them through the draw.
If auction tags are really important for revenue, then the state can put them on onlinehuntingauctions.com like SFW and keep all the money for conservation. You should definitely support that additional money for wildlife! Heck, so should SFW!

Technology has changed, we don't need to pay somebody else to do it anymore.
 

notdonhunting

Active Member
Grizz the DWR could auction off the tags and keep all the money. But all of the money from the auction would go into the general budget which then the state legislators would cut the DNR budget. A small percent of that extra money brought in from the auction tags would be spent on projects.
I know one thing for sure it is alot easier to get the SFW to fund a project than try to cut through the red tape and get the DNR to fund a project.
 

grizzly

Long Time Member
Grizz the DWR could auction off the tags and keep all the money. But all of the money from the auction would go into the general budget which then the state legislators would cut the DNR budget. A small percent of that extra money brought in from the auction tags would be spent on projects.
I know one thing for sure it is alot easier to get the SFW to fund a project than try to cut through the red tape and get the DNR to fund a project.
Your entire post is conjecture and hypothetical.
 

notdonhunting

Active Member
Your entire post is conjecture and hypothetical.

Sorry. Let me restate post # 18
Gained revenue from sales or services from said goverment entity can and will be used to cover any shortfall of general budget for current fiscal year of said government entity.
If any gained revenue is left from general budget at end of fiscal year that revenue can then be placed in a PTIF Type savings with stipulations and/or be carried over to the next year general budget.
I do believe he stated that you can revisit the budget and use some of the gained revenue for a needed project, like for something that was unforeseen when the budget was adopted.
That is how it was explained to me by my accountant when I ran a government entity budget, it was a small budget but still a government budget.
I am sure there is an accountant that can explain it better or correct me if I am wrong, it would not be the first time.
All of that is not conjecture or hypothetical

Good article read it

DWR budget is about 90 percent self supporting and 10 percent tax funded.
This is a quote from KSL article.
SALT LAKE CITY — Unlike other Western states like Colorado, Wyoming and Idaho, Utah’s wildlife agency is not self-supporting, instead relying on general fund money from the state budget for its operations.
Yes it is conjecture or hypothetical of my assumption the state legislature would not utilize any extra revenue generated by auction tags used by conservation organizations to fund projects for the benefit of wildlife at the same rate as conservation organizations do.
But I myself I support the conservation organizations to auction tags to generate funds for projects for the benefit of wildlife in Utah.

Just one mans opinion.
 

Vanilla

Very Active Member
But what did $fw do with ALL the money WE GAVE THEM.?

We gave them $3.75 on every lotto ticket. Where did that go? How much did WE give them in tax breaks for the expo? How much did WE pay DWR employees to man booths?

$3.75 x 50,000= $188,750

So that's IF their was 50k attendees, and they each only bought one ticket.

What was their real take? $300-$400k? More?
When you look at $880k and tgen figure they kept $300-$400k, that amount spent doesn't look great.
We probably ought to get the real numbers out there. For 2020 projects it is realistic to think that the money would be coming from 2019 revenue. So, I decided to look at just the beginning of that revenue. You can look at the data on the link provided here, so we are not worried about guessing on the numbers.


Hoss, just the OIL species had a total of 53,781 individual applications. So your very conservative estimation above is very, very low. In fact, here is the breakdown of individual applications, at $5 a piece, for each species at the 2019 expo:

OIL species (together): 53,781
Cow elk: 3,227
Pronghorn: 10,904
Bear: 5,359
Cougar: 2,735
Turkey: 1,926
Mule Deer: 77, 946
Bull Elk: 136, 829

Total individual applications for the 2019 exp? 238,926

238,926 x $3.50 = $836,241.00

They received more in just the retained $3.50 on each application than they did in conservation projects. Remember, this money isn't required to be used for conservation projects, it's for administrative costs.

This figure above doesn't even begin to dive into the 60% of the revenue generated at the auction that is REQUIRED to be used for approved conservation projects. I may go and look at what each tag sold for and do some math, but that overall number is in the millions, and 60% of is REQUIRED to be retained and used by the conservation organization for approved projects. If the expo tags brought in $1.3 million, that $800,000 figure would represent the money they are REQUIRED to spend on approved projects. I'm not sure I want to dive into that math because I suspect it's only going to lead me to frustration.

So yeah, I'm not congratulating SFW for their $800,000 in conservation projects for the year. This was required, at a minimum. None of their own money used in that figure, this was the money "we gave them" (as Hoss put it) on top of everything else they've received off the welfare teet of the government.
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
I didn't have time to do homework so im glad Vanilla did.

Somehow I'm thinking crickets will soon be chirping
 

notdonhunting

Active Member
It is 882K a little closer to 900K than 800K. But who is really counting.

Don't the SFW have a partner?
So if the SFW have a partner, I do not know the split if it is 50/50 cut 70/30 cut or what ever. But would it not change some figures.
Two into something is alot different than one into something. Atleast that is what I found out when I shared my apple pie with someone else.
 

Vanilla

Very Active Member
So notdon got me a little more curious based upon his quibbling over the $82k I slighted SFW. so I actually clicked on the link. This is what their own website says:

“SFW’s funding of these projects comes from two sources:

1. Utah Conservation Permit funds raised through SFW’s live auctions at the Western Hunting and Conservation Expo and its 17 fundraising events held throughout Utah in 2018 and 2019.

2. $5 Application Revenue from the Western Hunting & Conservation Expo during the 2018 and 2019 Expo events.“

Holy crap! They are not only including the $5 application fees, but this is from TWO years of the expo!!!!

Wow, this is going to look really bad when I finish the math on that one.

Notdon, feel free to inspire more interest with more comments. It seems you will be a great catalyst for some difficult questions to come. Like this one I asked above:

Where is the rest of it?

Stay tuned...
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
So notdon got me a little more curious based upon his quibbling over the $82k I slighted SFW. so I actually clicked on the link. This is what their own website says:

“SFW’s funding of these projects comes from two sources:

1. Utah Conservation Permit funds raised through SFW’s live auctions at the Western Hunting and Conservation Expo and its 17 fundraising events held throughout Utah in 2018 and 2019.

2. $5 Application Revenue from the Western Hunting & Conservation Expo during the 2018 and 2019 Expo events.“

Holy crap! They are not only including the $5 application fees, but this is from TWO years of the expo!!!!

Wow, this is going to look really bad when I finish the math on that one.

Notdon, feel free to inspire more interest with more comments. It seems you will be a great catalyst for some difficult questions to come. Like this one I asked above:

Where is the rest of it?

Stay tuned...

But they "present" the WB with money on one of those poster sized checks.

You got any idea how much those babies cost to print?

Notdon. Does it really matter if they have a partner?
They are doing the very minimum required.

Whether that's 1/2 pie, or the whole pie makes no difference.

Especially if you consider the other org was offering the MAXIMUM.
 

notdonhunting

Active Member
Okay. I’ll oblige and round up. $900k it is.

Where is the rest of it?
But they "present" the WB with money on one of those poster sized checks.

You got any idea how much those babies cost to print?

Notdon. Does it really matter if they have a partner?
They are doing the very minimum required.

Whether that's 1/2 pie, or the whole pie makes no difference.

Especially if you consider the other org was offering the MAXIMUM.
So notdon got me a little more curious based upon his quibbling over the $82k I slighted SFW. so I actually clicked on the link. This is what their own website says:

“SFW’s funding of these projects comes from two sources:

1. Utah Conservation Permit funds raised through SFW’s live auctions at the Western Hunting and Conservation Expo and its 17 fundraising events held throughout Utah in 2018 and 2019.

2. $5 Application Revenue from the Western Hunting & Conservation Expo during the 2018 and 2019 Expo events.“

Holy crap! They are not only including the $5 application fees, but this is from TWO years of the expo!!!!

Wow, this is going to look really bad when I finish the math on that one.

Notdon, feel free to inspire more interest with more comments. It seems you will be a great catalyst for some difficult questions to come. Like this one I asked above:

Where is the rest of it?

Stay tuned...

238,926 x $3.50 = $836,241.00
They received more in just the retained $3.50 on each application than they did in conservation projects. Remember, this money isn't required to be used for conservation projects, it's for administrative costs.

Not quibbling over numbers just holding you to same leval of accurate information some of you guys are holding others too.
We don't want any conjecture or hypothetical posting on Monster Muleys.

You did not answer how much is SFW if you cut that figured amount in half.



But they "present" the WB with money on one of those poster sized checks.

You got any idea how much those babies cost to print?

Notdon. Does it really matter if they have a partner?
They are doing the very minimum required.

Whether that's 1/2 pie, or the whole pie makes no difference.

Especially if you consider the other org was offering the MAXIMUM.
Hoss I goggled giant fake check it would cost $21.95 on Amazon.
I hope not too many deer are going to starve to death now that SFW wasted so much money.

Yes hoss it does matter if I share my pie with someone else . If I only get half of the pie then I only have enough pie for two pieces vs the full pie I get four pieces.
And I will thank the Muley Deer Foundation for donating the MAXIUM AMOUNT of there share of the pie.
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
Notice I didnt, nor did Vanilla mention
MDF.

I don't because they are pretty open with accounting. Second, because I read Slamdunk say MDF dropped $3.5 million. Which if true is roughly 7x what $fw did.

But again another spin.

No one commented on what anyone else did. The numbers are from $fw.

And ya. They took spent $900k, plus 21.95 for the check.

How much did they pull from their part of the auction pie?

How much did they pull from the WHOLE pie in the tags they auctioned at their banquets?

I'll ask Slamdunk. I betting MDF has an answer.
 

Vanilla

Very Active Member
While I'm still trying to compile some numbers, I have had this thought:

I wonder how much the whole sheep purchase and reintroduction on Antelope Island cost KUIU this year? And they took it 100% of their own resources, not what the state provided to them to do the work, and a bunch more on top.

That to me is REAL conservation. If you pay me a million dollars to go work at service projects all of next year, am I really doing service projects? One has to wonder...
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
If you get paid to do a job you are a contractor. No different than WW Clyde building roads, or Big D building buildings.

Only they aren't given the materials to build them for free.
 

notdonhunting

Active Member
Notice I didnt, nor did Vanilla mention
MDF.

I don't because they are pretty open with accounting. Second, because I read Slamdunk say MDF dropped $3.5 million. Which if true is roughly 7x what $fw did.

But again another spin.

No one commented on what anyone else did. The numbers are from $fw.

And ya. They took spent $900k, plus 21.95 for the check.

How much did they pull from their part of the auction pie?

How much did they pull from the WHOLE pie in the tags they auctioned at their banquets?

I'll ask Slamdunk. I betting MDF has an answer.
I apologize to anyone that thinks I was slighting the Muley Deer Foundation because I was not meaning anything negative by saying thanks for sharing the maximum amount of there share of the pie. I really meant THANKS because I do believe right now tha MDF is doing alot of good for the bang of the buck they take in. I have been a member of SFW, RMEF and MDF at different points of my life but I am planning on joining up with the MDF and actually getting involved not just giving my $35 for a few free magazines.
Hoss and Vanilla I will apologize I have been a little bit of a smart a!@ and I do think the SFW needs more accountability of the funding that is raised by the sale of state tags. So yes I understand where you guys are coming from.
I do think the SFW, MDF and RMEF do alot of good for wildlife through out the west and even beyond.
If between the three organizations they put 4+ million (3+ million from MDF) into projects in the state of Utah I do believe that is 4 million more than what would come from the state legislature if the SFW, MDF and the RMEF did not have these tags to auction off.
Just my opinion. I don't want to accused of conjecture or hypothetical
 

notdonhunting

Active Member
Hoss, Vanilla and Griz you guys are just mad at SFW because you saw in them pictures they used apples to baite in them deer on that net.
I bet buying them apples is why they had to spend the extra 82K. I was wrong they did only spend 800K for the wildlife and the $21.95 dollar giant check.
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
Notdon, no need to apologize.

Guys hopefully challenge other guys thoughts/ideas. We can learn things.

BTW, slam said they split 50/50 on the lotto money, MDF and RMEF.

I greatly dislike the tag welfare.

500ish tags every year seems asinine.

But like I said. IF, we think it's necessary, then maximizing revenue on them should be the mandate.

MDF dropping $3.5 million, and $FW dropping $900k, yet they split 50/50 lotto tickets, is a pretty damning number.

Somehow MDF is able to out spend $fw by nearly 7x.

AWESOME JOB by MDF.
 

notdonhunting

Active Member
You are right about the MDF outdoing SFW and MDF not just a Utah organization.
Welfare tags I support but i do believe the DWR should put a minimum percent of auction sale that has to be put back to projects.
 

Vanilla

Very Active Member
Alright, I'm back with some more numbers. Let me begin by telling you my methodology here. I looked at the reported sales at auction at the 2019 Western Hunting and Conservation Expo. And I ONLY used Utah big game permits. I did not include anything from another state, any out of the country hunts, any merchandise in the auction, or fishing trips. This is strictly the money generated from tags given to them by the state of Utah, because I know what the requirement is for those, whereas I'm not sure for out of state, merchandise, etc.

The 2019 auction brought in the following total just in Utah tags:

$2,260,000

Giving the benefit of the doubt on a 50/50 split with the MDF, SFW would have received $1,356,000 from this auction alone. By rule, 60% of that is REQUIRED to be reserved by the organization for approved conservation projects. 60% of the total above is......

$678,000.

Now, we rounded up to $900,000 to give SFW the benefit of the doubt here, but before we start congratulating them on spending over $200,000 extra, let's remember, they said that $900,000 came from TWO years of the expo, including the $5 application fees and auction revenue, in addition to 17 other SFW fundraisers throughout those two years. (Including other tags SFW received to raffle/auction at their own banquets.) That $678,000 is just SFW's 60% responsibility for approved conservation projects from the auction alone.

Goodness people. Where the heck is the rest of the money????

This is so embarrassing that our state allows this to keep happening.
 

Packout

Very Active Member
Slam- I like MDF, support them, and have sweat and bled on MDF projects. That said, the photo you posted is the exact problem with groups taking all the credit. I doubt all of the $3.5 million came from banquet dinners, raffle tickets, and memberships. $3.5 million most likely includes the 90% of funds received from Conservation tags which has legal mandates to be used on State approved projects. Yet not one word of credit is given to the State of Utah and it citizens for essentially giving MDF the resources to generate some/most of that funding. Partners should be acknowledged in a partnership.
 

slamdunk

Moderator
Slam- I like MDF, support them, and have sweat and bled on MDF projects. That said, the photo you posted is the exact problem with groups taking all the credit. I doubt all of the $3.5 million came from banquet dinners, raffle tickets, and memberships. $3.5 million most likely includes the 90% of funds received from Conservation tags which has legal mandates to be used on State approved projects. Yet not one word of credit is given to the State of Utah and it citizens for essentially giving MDF the resources to generate some/most of that funding. Partners should be acknowledged in a partnership.
That's a fair statement and I don't have a rebuttal for it at this time without digging into it further.

The MDF is completely transparent and I trust without an ounce of doubt I could find an adequate answer.

There is and always be "question" and criticizing with any and all charitable and non-profit organizations, just as there should be 👍
 

slamdunk

Moderator
Alright, I'm back with some more numbers. Let me begin by telling you my methodology here. I looked at the reported sales at auction at the 2019 Western Hunting and Conservation Expo. And I ONLY used Utah big game permits. I did not include anything from another state, any out of the country hunts, any merchandise in the auction, or fishing trips. This is strictly the money generated from tags given to them by the state of Utah, because I know what the requirement is for those, whereas I'm not sure for out of state, merchandise, etc.

The 2019 auction brought in the following total just in Utah tags:

$2,260,000

Giving the benefit of the doubt on a 50/50 split with the MDF, SFW would have received $1,356,000 from this auction alone. By rule, 60% of that is REQUIRED to be reserved by the organization for approved conservation projects. 60% of the total above is......

$678,000.

Now, we rounded up to $900,000 to give SFW the benefit of the doubt here, but before we start congratulating them on spending over $200,000 extra, let's remember, they said that $900,000 came from TWO years of the expo, including the $5 application fees and auction revenue, in addition to 17 other SFW fundraisers throughout those two years. (Including other tags SFW received to raffle/auction at their own banquets.) That $678,000 is just SFW's 60% responsibility for approved conservation projects from the auction alone.

Goodness people. Where the heck is the rest of the money????

This is so embarrassing that our state allows this to keep happening.
Niller
You've done some good homework, quite impressive.

But......is it really fair to ask- "Goodness people, where is the rest of the money?
This is so embarrassing that our state allows this to keep happening"- when there is absolutely no way you have found EVERYTHING in the financials?

I cannot vouch for the SFW but 88% of all funds coming into the MDF go right back into conservation with the other 12% goes to administrative costs.
Having said that, there is only ONE SINGLE PERSON on the Utah state level that is a paid employee of MDF, the other few hundred of us are 100% completely volunteer.

I personally joined the MDF because I know EXACTLY where my money goes because of my involvement and ability to physically see it go to work when I am running an auger in the ground to plant thousands of watershed and habitat in the spring and summer.

The MDF is totally transparent and you can even view their 990's on their website.

And for the record, I am not here to sell anyone on ANY conservation group, but I am very passionate about the MDF and will defend it to the best of my ability.
 

Vanilla

Very Active Member
slamdunk,

Please notice that none of my criticism or questions have been directed towards MDF. There is a reason for that. As you stated, they have been very transparent.

You’re right, I haven’t looked at SFW’s financials. I haven’t even looked at all the expo tag financials. Nobody outside of the organization has. And therein lies the problem.

I am using their own reported public information to ask these questions, and have given them the benefit of the doubt at every single turn to make things look most favorable into them. And they still come up millions short.

Asking where the rest of the money is at is a very fair question. One I doubt anyone in the organization will ever answer. But I’m going to start asking it to people that are accountable to us as the people.
 

slamdunk

Moderator
slamdunk,

Please notice that none of my criticism or questions have been directed towards MDF. There is a reason for that. As you stated, they have been very transparent.

You’re right, I haven’t looked at SFW’s financials. I haven’t even looked at all the expo tag financials. Nobody outside of the organization has. And therein lies the problem.

I am using their own reported public information to ask these questions, and have given them the benefit of the doubt at every single turn to make things look most favorable into them. And they still come up millions short.

Asking where the rest of the money is at is a very fair question. One I doubt anyone in the organization will ever answer. But I’m going to start asking it to people that are accountable to us as the people.
Fair enough 👍👊
 

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