Wolves? What about Mt. Lions!

[Trophy_Taker]

LAST EDITED ON Nov-03-10 AT 07:02PM (MST)[p]There is so much talk about good for nothing wolves and the damage they are doing to big game herds, and I agree! But what about the damage Mt. Lions are doing? What are they good for and why isn't more pressure applied to dramatically lower their numbers. They must be killing many more big game animals than wolves, given the numbers difference, but everybody seems to complain much more about wolves.

 

[Deersman]

Because the powers that be have replaced you as a primary means of keeping big game herds in check with the cougar and coyotes. And it is working quite well for them I might add. Nowhere I'm aware of has a overabundance issue with big game. Now if you throw the wolf in there too then it will screw up there plan and too much game will end up in the bellies of predators. Then they would be forced to manage all predators. The way it is now work perfectly for them. I dwindling deer herds have got use all fretting about our hunting future. And pied pipers like Don Peay can make promises of savior and the masses fall inline.

 

[NMPaul]

Hate them to.

 

[sticknastring3]

Yeah I think mountain lions do have an effect on the dwindling deer numbers in utah. but everyone is up in arms about wolves because if packs of wolves enter utah, the effects on big game from both lions and wolves would just make the situation that much worse.
About 8 years ago I heard a DWR officer tell our camp on the bowhunt that if you see a mountain lion, shoot it. He just told us if we do shoot a mountain lion, just to not go bragging about doing so. Basically a don't ask don't tell sort of thing. Still have never seen a mountain lion in the wild. The only one I have seen was one my uncle shot because it was getting into his pheasant pens at night and killing his birds.

 

[mevertsen]

trophy taker - this is about the 4th or 5th topic on this site in less than a month complaining about mountain lions, and how much deer they eat.

I do now know where you are at, but if I read the information correctly, there are still parts of Utah where the harvest objectives still do not fill in Utah.

I know for a fact that Nevada does not reach its harvest objective. We can buy two tags over the counter every year, hunt day or night, with hounds or without. The only restriction is we cannot kill a spotted kitten or female accompanied by a spotted kitten.

To me, it seems that people ARE given the opportunity to kill the lions, but they DON'T. They sure will ##### though.

Here is the situation in NV. We CAN'T make it any more lieral than it is. If that happens, speacial interest - anti hunting groups WILL have it shut down. That is plainly evident as what has happened in the wolf deal.

It would only take a group to think there is no lions, a few senators/assemblymen to bite, and a good propoganda campaign with the liberal voters, and we could lose it here, just like California.

The game commission here made a big deal about it on their last meeting, and what they could do to make them a varmint, furbearer, or otherwise make it EASIER for someone to kill a lion in NV. Bottom line is the only thing holding someone back now is a $29 tag.

At that meeting, the anti hunting groups showed up in force, and the commission tabled the issue. And the groups said that won't stop them and they will be back. We have to have a season where lions are counted when they are killed. That at least has a number for everyone to look upon. If we quit recording kills, then NO ONE can say how many there are, or that there is a healthy population or not, and as far as the anti hunting population is concerned, their "ENDANGERED", so Mr/Mrs Senator/Assemblyman, we need to put forward a bill to stop the hunting to protect the beautiful creatures.

And how many people that don't know a damn thing about wildlife in the first place would bite on that? I am guessing a good bit.

So I say this, if you think the lions are eating so many deer, go get a tag, and try to kill one. I am guessing you will be part of the 96-97% or so of the people that buy tags here, and WON'T kill one.

Later,

Marcial

 

[justr_86]

I wanna kill one!!! I don't have dogs, or the money to hire an outfitter. I will buy the tag if anyone wants some practice for their dogs.

 

[gb22]

Lions kill many more deer than do people.

Here, in Idaho, hound OWNERS apply a great deal of pressure NOT to kill lions. If pressed (and honest), those hound owners will openly admit, they care nothing about the health of the deer herds.

They have a lot of time and money invested in their dogs and want a lot of lions so their dogs can "practice". They are only interested in killing TROPHY cats.


Within the shadows, go quietly.

 

[Hawkeye]

LAST EDITED ON Nov-04-10 AT 11:12AM (MST)[p]I have wondered for some time what effect mountain lions have on our mule deer population so I did some basic research and this is what I found. According to the DWR, there are approximately 2,500 cougars in the State of Utah. The Utah Cougar Management Plan contains two separate population estimates. The first study is based upon unit populations and it estimates that there are between 2,528 and 2,936 cougars. The second study is based upon mean cougar densities and total occupied cougar habitat and it estimates that there are 2,927 cougars in the state. (Utah Cougar Management Plan p. 8.) Based upon these two studies, I think it is safe to say that there are between 2,000 and 3,000 cougars in the State of Utah.

The next question is how many deer to 2,500 cougars kill in a given year. Most of us have probably heard the saying that ?a single cougar will kill on average one deer a week or 50+ deer in a year.? Although I have heard that statistic many times, I wanted to see if there was any scientific data to support it. What I found after reading several studies is that in Western states, such as Utah, mule deer make up 60-80% of a cougar?s diet throughout year. They also eat rabbits and hares, rodents, porcupines, skunks, coyotes, and, occasionally, domestic stock. (Currior, M. J. P. 1983. Felis Concolor. Mammal. Species No. 200) One of the most often cited scientific studies conducted in Idaho showed that the average cougar killed one mule deer per week or fifty deer per year. (Hornocker, M.G. 1970. An analysis of mountain lion predation upon mule deer and elk in the Idaho Primitive Area)

Based upon these numbers, it seems one could reasonably conclude that the approximately 2,500 cougars in the State of Utah may kill up to 125,000 in a year. Now these numbers seem fairly high given that we only have approximately 300,000 deer in the state. However, I would not doubt that cougars kill upwards of 100,000 deer a year. That is a huge number when you consider that we as hunters only harvest an average of about 30,000 deer a year. That means that cougars probably kill at least three times as many deer as hunters harvest in a given year.

Now, whenever someone comments on the toll that cougars take on our mule deer herds, the houndsman usually come out of the woodwork and tell us that the cougar populations are at all time lows, that we are killing more cougars now than ever, that there are no mature cats left and that cougars do not kill that many deer. I am certainly not a wildlife biologist but have done my best to find some of the premier studies on the issue and this is what the experts are saying. At a time when we are considering drastic cuts in mule deer tags and turning the whole state into limited entry units, perhaps we should take a more serious look at the impact cougars have on mule deer herds.

Hawkeye

P.S. ? For those of you that think cougars only prey on the sick and weak, please watch the following video:

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD

 

[CATMAN]

LAST EDITED ON Nov-04-10 AT 12:15PM (MST)[p]I am an avid deer, elk, lion, and bear hunter. I will tell you that the dwr's numbers on lions in this state are about as accurate as their deer numbers. Like it was stated above. MANY units have been harvest objective units for years. MANY units never reach their objective in a given year. MANY units are year round hunting. I will tell you that you can go look at the harvest results for lion in this state and the average age of cougars taken is 2 yrs old or less. Don't you think if there were that many lions we could kill something a little more respectable. Too many people speculate on the numbers of lions and the damage they do. I will not object to the fact that they eat deer, but they have forever. If you think that the lions are the problem in this state as far as deer numbers go....you are all misguided. Look at California....they haven't been able to hunt lions for years......they see them all the time in town, but their deer herd is far greater than ours....why is that? Please people before you go blaming everything on the lions do some research and spend some time with a houndman this winter and actually see how many miles he covers to find a single lion track. Also don't go saying you seen 13 in one canyon as that will tell me how unknowledgeable you truly are about lions and their habits. I love deer hunting.....that is the exact reason I got into hounds is I had the same mentality as some of you. After I spent years following them I came to the conclusion that I cannot blame them anymore....although I do find 100's of coyote kills and still enjoy capping them every chance I get, but I can prove we don't have any shortage of them. Am I a lion lover? Nope but I know the facts and I will stand by what I say. I still say I'll buy anyone and their wife a steak dinner for a fresh lion track I can run in my area. Pretty good of me since there are millions of them, but it will save me that much money on gas easy compared to what I spend looking for tracks

 

[quickdrawkinker]

Great insight Hawkeye! Puts things into perspective for sure. Having an archery elk tag on Monroe this year I couldn't believe the amount of lions there appears to be on that unit--seemed like every canyon I went into had lion tracks. I even discovered one had been using my makeshift blind because when I got there one morning it was covered in tracks! took the fun out of sneakin in early and goin out late!
It also shed a little light on why there aren't any deer left on that unit--pretty sad!

 

[bearman]

In Nevada the lion numbers are just pulled out of thin air. All hounds men I know care more about deer numbers than lions. One more time it is usually people that have no idea that think lions are killing our deer. Coyote's eat ten times the number of deer as lions. I wonder how any deer ever lived before the rocket scientists came along that want to kill every predator? Natural part of wildlife.

 

[Broadside_Shot]

I'm not going to say that there are lions everywhere but I will say that there are alot more than there used to be. I can almost guarentee a lion on my Trail Cameras every time I set them out.

My grandfather who has spent alot more time in the hills than I have only saw 1 lion in his lifetime. I have pesonally seen 4 in the wild and this is without even hunting or looking for them.

If lions really kill 40 to 50 deer a year then even the slighest increase will effect the deer.

Coyotes are a huge problem also. It could be just an up cycle but I have heard more packs of coyotes this year then ever. My neighbor loves hunting dogs, he perfers in more than deer. Every year he kills more than he did the previous one. He has killed 32 coyotes so far this year.

I really think the predators are a big problem for the deer. More than we may want to believe.

We just have to ask ourselves do we want deer or do we want predators. We can not have abundance of both, Mother nature won't allow it

 

[Cahunter805]

Catman I am from CA and can tell you that lions are a huge problem for our deer herds. My local spot has become more and more overrun with lions and bears in the past few years. Its a shame there isnt a lion season and someway to control them.

 

[biggameballer]

There is always going to be wolves and mountain lions the big problem with wolves is that we are not allowed to manage thier population while we can for mountian lions.

 

[Hawkeye]

LAST EDITED ON Nov-04-10 AT 02:24PM (MST)[p]biggameballer-

While it may be true that we as states have the authority to manage mountain lions, I do not think that we are doing a very good job of it. If mountain lions, not to even mention coyotes, are killing 2x, 3x or even 4x the number of deer that we as hunters harvest, then I think we have a serious problem. I am not suggesting that we ignore the advancing wolf problem but let's not overlook the other predators that are already here.

Catman, since you disagree with the population numbers in the Cougar Management Plan, what do you think the state-wide population really is? What do you think about the studies that suggest cougars kill on average one deer a week? Does that sound accurate to you? I am certainly no expert on mountain lions but I was shocked when I did some research into the impact they have on mule deer heards. Even if the State's numbers are off and there are only 2,000 cougars, that is still approximately 100,000 deer a year. If those numbers are even close to accurate, no wonder are deer herds are in the tank!

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD

 

[CATMAN]

Hawkeye
I believe the number of lions is FAR less than that. I do not think lions average a deer a week. Lions are predators and yes they do eat deer. When I first started hunting lions in the early 90's I would catch a lion per day average. Now I can hunt for days in as prime of deer habitat as we have and not find a track. The SFW targeted lions several years ago and they have REALLY took a toll on lions. I would encourage anyone wanting to really see for themselves to come out and bring some gas and a snowmobile this winter. We will look for lion tracks, kills, and monitor how many coyote tracks we see. It would be my pleasure to show anyone how many cats are decimating our deer herds. We will hunt in the biggest deer herds wintering out here in the Uinta Basin (which aren't many)

 

[Hawkeye]

Catman-

I don't own a snowmobile but I would certainly be happy to pay for gas, lunch and dinner in exchange for an opportunity to tag along some time. The numbers in the Cougar Management Plan were shocking when compared with the studies regarding deer predation. I would welcome an opportunity to learn about the other side of the debate through some "on the ground research."

As mentioned before, I am not a wildlife biologist but based upon my experience and limited research, I would rank the causes for the decline of Utah's mule deer as follows:

1. Predators (cougars, coyotes and black bears);
2. Motor vehicle fatalies;
3. Increase in elk numbers;
4. Loss of and decline in quality of critical winter habitat--primarily in Northern Utah; and
5. Hunting.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD

 

[bearman]

In Nevada twenty years ago you could pick the track you wanted to run that day. Now you may go a week or two before you see one track! How many deer bones do you see when hunting? If they killed the number of deer as some think all you would see is deer bones. As for elk being a problem, in Nevada where I live and hunt deer numbers are raising. At the same time elk numbers are raising. In some spots of the state where deer are the lowest there are no elk.

In your list I see no mention of over grazing. Grazing in Nevada helped change the land for the deer. All though It passed the point of help and now leaves much of the land with out any feed. Pinion and Juniper was a big part if not the most important part of mule deer numbers hitting a all time high.

Can predators have an impact on deer numbers "yes"? Does over grazing by domestic livestock have an impact on deer numbers "yes"? Does P&J have an Impact? The list could go on and on. Fact is predators have a small part and with the anti-hunters out there it is a losing fight. We should concentrate on the major factors affecting deer and aggressively tackle them.

 

[huntingjlc]

catman,
Why don't you come down around Monroe and hunt the cats here. There are plenty cats and very few deer. They have had cats come into Richfield and Monroe the past three winters. The dwr claims there are only 20 cats on the whole mountain and that is a bald face lie. I am not saying there are not many cats in the basin, but by dang there are more than enough here.

 

[Deersman]

As the deer herd declines it stands to reason so will the cougar population. It also stands to reason there would be more cats in the 90's when there were more deer. One thing I want houndsmen to understand is the answer to more cats is more deer. And if they would help reduce predation instead of increasing it and filling us full of misinformation. Then when the deer herd recovered and met objectives we very well may learn that we can increase the objective on many units. With a population of 500,000 deer you could have your 3000 cats. And no one would ##### about them. But if we are going to be pitted against them for the last few deer out there someday houndsmen and cougars are going to get run over.

 

[Deersman]

So many cats on Monroe that after the deer herd was eaten they turned on the elk and cut the herd in half in 2 yrs. Down to 900 elk. Just about the only unit with an under objective elk herd. And it had nothing to do with overhunting since they only let 80 tags a yr on that Mtn. 5 yrs later that herd still is stagnant with about 900 elk.

 

[mevertsen]

One other thing that I thought of when it comes to deer and elk estimates and cougar estimates.

I talked to a biologist here about how its done. In Nevada, the numbers they put out for ungulates is for ADULT animals, not including the young from that spring on a fall count, or the previous spring on the winter/spring counts prior to mamas having babies.

When people figure how many cats there are, its typically TOTAL cats, which can really throw a monkey wrench in the numbers.

One thing I have always wondered also, is how can we even get a halfway accurate count for an animal that has a home range of anywhere from 20-200 square miles?

So what about that female that kills a deer and feeds her two kittens for a week off that one carcass? So now instead of "3" deer killed that week, we can only figure one, so again the numbers are flawed.

Also - how come the Utah guys believe the lion numbers in Utah, but throw stones at them when they say there are a certain number of deer - and they have no clue how many lions there are either?

As an example though, I went out on the second day after a snow last week, which is usually the prime time for me to find tracks.

I saw no less than 3 and possibly as many as 5 seperate coyote tracks, chukar tracks, deer tracks, horse tracks, tons of hawks, a couple eagles, and not one lion or bobcat tracks.

That was in a good area that with hard looking, I will find 1 track every other or 3rd day if I am lucky.

Yup, cats everywhere, no doubt.

Later,

Marcial

 

[Trophy_Taker]

The Utah deer herd is a joke and the best answer that the hunting powers that be can come up with is to cut a few thousand tags, divide hunt units, and raise tag fees. Utah has half the hunters it did 25 years ago, and has now for some time, and the deer herd has not improved one bit. So let's cut 3,000 tags and save 1,000 bucks, that's a band-aid on a severed neck. How about eliminating 1% of the lion population and save more that 1,000 deer. Or better yet eliminate 30% of the lion population and save tens of thousands of deer. It's really not that complicated is it?

 

[mojo]

So blame it on the lions that the deer heards are down wow some body did their home work. I am a houndsman and also a big game hunter to. During the lion season I do spend alot of time in the hills. There really is not as many lions as alot of people think. With the harvest objective program it has dropped the lion populations in the state. For example living very close to the foot hills of mount. timp. I spent two years looking for cats there. It is a roadless area so you are limited to travel by foot or horse, in those two years I have cut one cat and that is no B.S from battle creek to provo canyon. The deer heards seemed to be doing well in numbers. I did come across five cow elk that were killed the only tracks were etheir human which one of them had been dragged aways the givin up on or coyoties. The other reigions that I spend alot of time in are slightly better. What about the doe hunts in the 1990's, the deer killed by vehicles, poaching,weather,over hunted areas, and the number one mismanagement? I not saying the we should not harvest these animals but to go out and shoot them off is not going to help that much at all. We did that to are deer heards now maybe we should look at managing all of the wildlife in UTAH achive better populations and hunts for all spiecies. Micro managing just does not work!!!!!!!!

 

[ELKOHOLIC]

Deerman, Where are you getting your information? I'm seeing an estimate of 1200 last year. Remember it's just an estimate though. I think the Monroe is a tough unit to count with the elk coming and going off the unit. It sounds like they will be killing more lions this year so we will see what it does, but I don't think that will make that big of a difference for the elk.

 

[Kevin D]

Anybody else tire of this discussion??

We kill all the lions and what are we saving the deer from Trophy_Taker, winter kill?? Have you ever spent time on the winter range come March or April and seen the winter killed deer piled up so high that there aren't enough scavengers to pick their bones?? I have.....and this is on a unit where cougars are scarce and it's been years since the harvest objective quota has been filled.

So yuh, it is a little more complicated than that.

 

[Deersman]

LAST EDITED ON Nov-05-10 AT 09:29AM (MST)[p]Sorry the last figure I seen was for 2008.

Monroe Elk herd objective population 1800 elk
2004- 1575 elk
2005- 900 elk
2006- 1000 elk
2007- 1000 elk
2008- 1050 elk

And apparently a figure of 1200 in 2009.

I don't think that a reduction of 10% or 20% cougar is enough to see an increase in elk or deer on Monroe. I would start with at least a 50% reduction maybe more. Then I wouldn't let the cougar population rise as prey became more abundant. Instead I would increase big game tags to keep the herds at objective.

I have no knowledge of these units other than on paper. I have noticed something. Zion and Pine Valley have had a bunch of cougar tags issued over the last several yrs. Coincidence maybe? These two units have seen a significant increase of deer in the last 5yrs. (on paper) Has the habitat made a miraculous recovery in these units? Roads, ATV's, Hunters, Winter, drought, Human encroachment. Are these factors absent from these units?

Another case in point. Our beloved Henry Mtn. Was under chronically under objective objective. They went and increased the cougar harvest on that unit significantly and look what we have. the deer herd went from a pathetic 680 deer in 2004 to 1500 deer in 2008.

How has the cougar harvest been on the Panguitch lake unit?

 

[bearman]

You just said what everyone reading this already knows. You have NO knowledge except on paper. Anyone that spends time in the mtn's that knows how to read sign can tell you that lions are not the problem!!!

 

[califhuntn]

You are right it is more complicated than that. Habitat loss both summer and winter range. Black bear and coyote have huge impacts on fawns here in Northern California. But yes lions eat more deer in a year most realize. Poaching is a problem as well. Some states are doing fine while others are seeing deer numbers decline and then there is California, just sad.

JR

 

[buxnduxNV]

Last spring I came up on a lion with a fresh doe kill. the picture was taken with my cell phone at a spot not 20 minutes from house.

 

[moose]

that looks more like a winter kill than a lion kill, the birds have worked the gut area and pulled the hair out...if it was a lion kill it would not be lying in the open, under a tree usually, and the meat part of the deer would be eaten, not the gut area.........

 

[buxnduxNV]

Well I came up on it and a lion was on top of it and it had claw marks on it's rump so believe what you want

 

[IDBoneCollector]

>that looks more like a winter
>kill than a lion kill,
>the birds have worked the
>gut area and pulled the
>hair out...if it was a
>lion kill it would not
>be lying in the open,
>under a tree usually, and
>the meat part of the
>deer would be eaten, not
>the gut area.........


I agree i see no damage to the neck lions choke their kills down and usually prefer meat not guts