WY Bighorn NR PP going into the 2015 draw

HornedToad

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Wyoming has posted its updated summary of preference points going into the 2015 draw:

http://wgfd.wyo.gov/web2011/hunting-1000147.aspx

Of the 16 NR's with a MAX of 19 PP for bighorn sheep going into the 2014 draw, none applied for a permit, but all applied for a PP, leaving 16 NR's with a new MAX of 20 PP going into the 2015 draw. This is beginning to look like a game of seeing who will be the last man standing.

Based on the above data, I have updated my model to predict the median year each point class could expect to draw a NR bighorn permit in the future years draw. For this year, I have only addressed the top ten point classes (going out beyond thirty years seems hardly realistic). The attrition rate for all point classes has fallen to an all-time low, now on average less than 4% annually. For example, for the top fifteen point classes going into the 2014 draw, there were 4,740 NR with from 5 to 19 PP. Of these, 43 drew permits in the 2014 Preference Point permit draw, leaving 4,697 to enter the PP-Only draw. Of these 4,511 received an additional PP, meaning that only 186, or 3.96%, dropped out of the process. At that low rate of attrition, it will mean even more years of waiting before most applicants can expect to draw a NR bighorn permit in Wyoming.

For NR applicants going into the 2015 Wyoming bighorn sheep draw, listed below are - (A) Number of PP, (B) Number of NR, (C) Predicted Median Year to Draw, and (D) change from prediction of previous year:

(A) (B) (C) (D)

01 1317
02 733
03 655
04 649
05 460
06 437
07 418
08 407
09 367
10 340 2044 (+9)
11 424 2041 (+8)
12 448 2037 (+7)
13 463 2034 (+6)
14 419 2030 (+4)
15 417 2027 (+3)
16 128 2022 (+2)
17 117 2020 (+2)
18 060 2018 (+1)
19 050 2017 (+1)
20 016 2016 (+1)

The Median Year can be thought of as the average year in which a person in a given PP class could expect to draw. Half would draw before the median while half would draw after. In general, those drawing earlier than the median would be applying in secondary (or less in demand) units, while those drawing later would be applying in primary (or most in demand) units.

The Predicted Median Year to Draw is based on a model that includes a number of assumptions, including (a) that the number of permits offered in the Non-Resident preference point draw remains constant at the current level, and (b) the annual attrition rate in each PP class (those dropping out of the draw) remains consistent with the average of the previous three years. Obviously, if either of these assumptions is off, the predicted years to draw would change measurably.

The annual attrition rates assumed in the above model remains a significant variable. For the 2014 draw, the actual attrition rate was substantially lower for all points classes compared to the model prediction. This lower rate of attrition is the principal reason most point classes saw additional years added to their expected median year to draw a tag.

For now, more participants are choosing to stay with the PP-Only draw, which will only increase the number of years required to draw a permit. It may be that the passage of years since the 2009-2011 economic recession has reduced the number of applicants each year deciding to forego the $100 cost for a NR sheep PP.

Small changes in attrition rates can make a big difference in the number of future applicants for permits, particularly when the compounding of years is taken into account. This is why the incremental number of years to draw increased substantially for this year compared to the previous year. Since 2011, attrition rates have been falling steadily. Projected forward, on a compounded basis, this implies many more applicants holding on for years waiting to draw their Wyoming bighorn permit. Obviously, something has got to give. No person gets to apply forever. But for now, most applicants seem to be willing to continue to play the game, counting on "the other guy" to drop out of the race.

Good luck to all in the 2015 Draw.

Horned Toad
 
Thank you for putting this together every year...I really look forward to seeing it. Looks like I have a few more years to wait.
 
Well, eventually someone has to DIE and I'll take their place in line. I just hope it's not ME.
Thanks HT, even though it's not good news unless a guy has 16 or more points!
There's hope for the top guys if they're young enough and their money holds out and/or the NR allotment doesn't change. For the rest of us, we're wasting our money!

Zeke

I sure hope my health hold up well!
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-22-14 AT 03:54PM (MST)[p]Back when this PP-game began in Wyoming in the mid-1990's, it was not unusual to have attrition rates of about 10% per year for most points-classes. That was the norm for many years, even when the cost of a preference point was much cheaper at only $7.

One can understand why the attrition rates in the high point-classes (15 thru 19) would be low (e.g. 4% per year), given the number of years and dollars invested to hold that position (though it is interesting to consider the 0% application, 0% attrition experience of the maximum point class). But when the attrition rates for even the lower point-classes are in low single-digits, at a cost of $100 per point, then it confirms that all but those in the very highest point classes should expect to have a very, very long wait to draw their permit.

In this respect, the Wyoming sheep draw is like most lotteries... that don't make sense, statistically, but many still play the game, in the off-chance that they could have their lucky day.

HT
 
......and everything you said is the truth.
Sad deal unless you're at or damn near the top.
"I may not live long enough but I'm not pulling out now" is the battle-cry of the under-informed. (Sounds like me)
Zeke
 
Very depressing for me. Almost a 100% certainty that I won't live long enough to draw a tag in the preference point pool.

I still apply because the tiny chance of drawing in the random pool though.

Whoever decided to make the PP a mandatory thing for BHS for Wyoming should get a raise. I know I wouldn't pay for a preference point if I didn't have to.
 
Of course where you apply makes all the difference. with 17 points I have a lock on a few tags but can't get to the top ones.

I'm surprised more people aren't backing out due to age, isn't it logical the reason so many people at the very top aren't trying for a tag because they don't figure they can handle the hunt? so in effect they're not really in the game anymore they just can't let go so they pay the $100.

Maybe the reason I suspect this is I'm worried about it myself, sheep hunting is no country for old men and I'm not getting any younger.
















Stay thirsty my friends
 
>I'm surprised more people aren't backing
>out due to age, isn't
>it logical the reason so
>many people at the very
>top aren't trying for a
>tag because they don't figure
>they can handle the hunt?
> so in effect they're
>not really in the game
>anymore they just can't let
>go so they pay the
>$100.
>
>Maybe the reason I suspect this
>is I'm worried about it
>myself.......

+1
It's either because of age or money... or both!
A guided sheep hunt is 10K and the tag is 2.5K. Petty cash for some but a huge financial sacrifice for others. Then there's the age thing. I'm no spring chicken and the clock is ticking.
There are just some tags that some of us will never have, I suppose.
Zeke
 
4 knee surgeries already and need another now, 23 more years to wait......I am sure they will be replaced by the tieem I am 68!
 
The lack of attrition at the top is surprising to me. Obviously most of those sitting on points are older and well healed enough to drop a C-Note each year. Unless they are out hunting other species somewhere else, it makes no sense to not apply. Then again, as long as they don't apply, it's just like they don't exist...at least until next year.

At any rate, I was once in that group but I did apply and got my Wyoming Bighorn 10 years ago. It was the start of some amazing sheep adventures for me. I hope you all get that chance sometime in your life. If you do, it will be worth the wait! :)
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-23-14 AT 04:22PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Oct-23-14 AT 04:21?PM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Oct-23-14 AT 04:20?PM (MST)

It should start to clear out at the top eventually, especially in the next 20 years...that will put the top point possible at 40...of course depends on at what age they started...not many super young guys put in back then unless their parents did it for them. That of course does not help the guys just coming up. I don't get why someone would start collecting sheep points as a NR...just doesn't make sense...save your money and put it elsewhere! Too much demand and not enough supply...if they could have done it over they should have squared the points like Montana (unless you're one of the first in then that's Blasphemy)...now its too late and unfair to change it with all the money we've already invested in it.
 
Things are going to change. There is going to be legislation introduced this coming session to reduce the nr tag allocation for sheep, moose, goat, bison to 10% of the quota. I'm sure it will pass and be implemented by 2016. The outfitters wont be able to stop it either.
 
I expect you're right. and anyone who isn't at the higher end of the point game would be an idiot to stay in .














Stay thirsty my friends
 
LBH,
The NR tag number would be 10% of the whole! Come on man, you're an educator.... just take the whole number and move the decimal to the left one place (and round down, I'm sure). LOL
I know we've had it good in Wyoming but it will sure stink when it changes, especially for those of us with a pile of points!
I guess for a 5% better chance the residents will gladly take away 50% from the NR's.
Zeke
 
It should be ILLEGAL to make you buy the preference point. I can't believe this hasn't been challenged. I would challenge it but I am sitting in no man's land with 14 points.
 
Geezzz Zeke,
You forget that I am old...I mean really old...like 4 years older than you.
I just thought someone might know, the numbers, but since no one chimed in, I looked it up during lunch and it appears to go from 44 NR tags to 16 if it is just pure 10%. That's even worse than you described.
And then if they consider only giving NR tags in units that have 10 resident tags...and 4 of the 16 tags will go to the random draw...well you get the picture!

I'm sure glad I was able to draw while the drawing was good.
 
Thank you Colorado! (1990)
It's starting to look like Wyoming doesn't want me any more. Ha
Sorry for the jab LBH, just funnin' ya. I've got to laugh about it or I'd cry.
Zeke
 
Really nice of someone to put the time into showing others the true situation. I dropped out of sheep after paying the $100 once or would have been in the 15 point pool this year. The new 10% allotment is going to kill the guys who are back 4-5 points. I have not looked at the sheep numbers, but there are many moose areas which give 5 tags- 4 res and 1 non-res. Those non-res tags will be gone, so it will be much less than 10% in the end. I imagine sheep is the same way.

I burned my moose points in WY this year on a lesser-unit. Glad I did, even though I have not seen a bull in my unit. So content not worrying about applying for those types of tags in WY ever again.
And for the record, I agree with them going to 10%. That is what my state does.
 
At 114.00 to apply for sheep in the random draw, it's one of the cheapest sheep raffles in the country, based on the odds you get per dollar spent. But if they slash the NR quota in half and keep the random tags at 25% of the total, then most or all of the random tags will be gone. There'll no longer be any reason for NR to apply, unless holding near max points. I wonder how much NR revenue will be lost across all the affected species?
 
Toad,
Can you do the same for residents. I drew my sheep tag this year and can't put in for 5 more years. Need to know if I'll still be alive and kick'n when my number might come up again...
 
Interestingly, attrition rates for Resident applicants for Bighorn Sheep were greater in 2014 than for Non-Residents, which is counterintuitive, given the $7 cost for a R-PP compared to $100 for a NR-PP. For example, in the top fifteen point classes, there were 6,111 Resident applicants with 5 to 19 PPs going into the 2014 draw, of whom 120 drew permits in the preference point draw, leaving 5,991 to enter the PP-only draw. Of these, 5,662 drew an additional PP, meaning that 329, or 5.49% dropped out. This is still a low rate of attrition, and most Resident applicants among the 5,662 above will not live long enough (or more appropriately, retain their fitness level long enough) to ever draw a bighorn permit. And this applies whether the future Resident allocation is 75% or 90%. But at least, a 5.49% attrition among Resident applicants is still better than the 3.96% attrition among Non-Residents.

HT
 
I appreciate you posting this also. Saving me a $100 a year.

When I first saw you post this a few years ago and realized I would be 92 before I had a chance of drawing. These were worse odds than Vegas.
 
440sixpack

I've wondered if people might not be dropping out due to age because they hope that a law will allow them at some point to transfer the points or the tag to a family member. Somewhere out there is a 17 year old kid who is going to go to law school and challenge this some day. Literally, these young kids have zero chance in certain scenarios in certain states with certain species. That kid might not get them to change the whole process, but he might get them to allow his grandpa to write his points into a will or to transfer a draw tag if if it happens before he dies.

MT_Grizz.jpg
 
Actually since 25% of the tags can go to anyone who applies a kid does have a chance, a slim one thought it may be.

Since I have quite a few points it's no surprise I like the points system, and since I've been payinmg my dues since the 17 year old kid was born I think it's fair I get an advantage over him.

I see what you're saying, and I understand, but this is what happens when demand exceed supply on anything. someone isn't going to be happy.

If there were grounds for a lawsuit I'd say it would be more on the issue of taking our money for years, then upping the price to stay in the game, then yanking the allotment you have been in the game for 20 years down to diddly. I don't think it's fair, but I don't think there is is anything you can do about it.


















Stay thirsty my friends
 
I woke up after applying for 5 years.
I put in for other states where I actually have a chance. :(
 
HT thanks for the analysis. The lower attrition rates do not surprise me. I believe I alluded to attrition rates seeming very high and not sustainable as early or earlier than your 2009 analysis.

Wy dropping the non-resident allocation was just a matter of time. Az is now changing and three great tags (early AZ elk, Az Strip deer and Wy BHS) I was really looking forward to may now be gone due to age.
 

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