Your experience with APR's let's hear it

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schoolhousegrizz

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Utah is looking to put antler point restrictions on a few units. I know what the data says. That the buck to doe ratios goes up. Success goes down, for obvious reasons. For the first little while there's a few more mature bucks but then the data for multiple States seems to be saying that the mature Buck population starts to drop because they are the ones that can be shot.

I would love to hear your experiences in areas where they have implemented APR's. Sometimes the anecdotal evidence if accurate can be very enlightening. Fire away let's hear it.
 
Do a search on the forum and bring up one of the many threads on it. Lots of info already posted on the matter.
 
I grew up in a county that has been an antler restricted county for about 15 years now. It's waaaaaaaaaay better now than it was back then. For the longest time no doe were allowed to be shot. Now we have a doe season also and this year they are lengthening the doe season.

People were scared we would end up with tons of deer that were geneticly selected to be narrow. Basically mature bucks that couldn't be shot because of the restrictions. That hasn't happened.

We have gone from an average age of mortality of 18 months to 3.5 years. We kill mature deer often. The oldest one aged at 8.

I would welcome them as long as the state is doing it in association with other changes that benefit the deer herd at the same time.
 
I’ve hunted some units in Wyoming that have rotating APRs. The main benefit I feel was that on years with an APR, less residents would show up to hunt that unit. This was something I noticed but is well documented by Wyoming fish and game. In turn there was less harvest and pressure. I don’t think there is any long term effect, maybe some more fluctuation in buck numbers/quality but nothing dramatic that I noticed. On years with an APR the hunting pressure seemed to stay higher through the end of the season, vs an opening weekend madhouse and then relatively quiet after that.
 
My experience is, people shoot first and count points last. Not enough points, musta missed, and walk away.

If units are in such bad shape to consider point restrictions, they should be closed entirely.
 
I remember APR installed in the Book Cliffs. Previous to that, we might have seen a few trucks per day. Beginning that year, it was a pumkin-fest. Everybody and their dogs showed up expecting there to be big bucks everywhere. THAT was the beginning of the decline that led to them shutting down the whole unit for 5 years because you could hardly find a deer anywhere. I'm sure there were other factors, but that's what I saw.
I also saw the general antler configuration shift from nice long tined 4 points in general to more older 3 points and a predominance of 2x3 and 3x4 configurations with a lot of crab claw fronts.
I've seen similar on limited entry units where people refuse to shoot a 4 year old 3 point and instead shoot the beautiful little 4 point on the last day. Last year after season, on Diamond Mtn, I saw many really big 3 points that you could drive to within archery range. They knew they were safe. No 4 points to be found.
 
Tristate said:
I grew up in a county that has been an antler restricted county for about 15 years now. It's waaaaaaaaaay better now than it was back then. For the longest time no doe were allowed to be shot. Now we have a doe season also and this year they are lengthening the doe season.

People were scared we would end up with tons of deer that were geneticly selected to be narrow. Basically mature bucks that couldn't be shot because of the restrictions. That hasn't happened.

We have gone from an average age of mortality of 18 months to 3.5 years. We kill mature deer often. The oldest one aged at 8.

I would welcome them as long as the state is doing it in association with other changes that benefit the deer herd at the same time.
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What is the minimum points in your county?
 
100% support antler point restrictions.

The days of shooting first and asking questions later is a very slippery slope compared to years ago. Everyone has big glass and a phone scope. I just don't that to be a valid there are loads of bucks being shot and left to lay. Sure there is always going to be some low lives around, but you odds of being filmed and turned in have gone way up.

Wrecking the gene pool is complete BS. Doe's carry genes too.

Most valid outfitters in the midwest carry strict antler point restrictions. Maybe you should ask how that's working out. Trophy quality has never been higher.

3 point or better seems like a better option than 4 point or better to me. 2 1/2 year old bucks are going to be 3 or 4 points 90% of the time. 4 point or better serves no benefit over 3 point or better IMO. Might even have a negative effect if you believe the gene pool nonsense.

Personally I'd love to see an antler point restriction.
 
Not to be a smart ass.
But I thought Antelope Island, Henry Mountain and Oak Creek was all shot out. Aren't they basically a 4 point or better.
 
Tristate said:
Mule deer are an outside beam spread of at least 20 inches. Whitetail must be an inside beam spread of at least 13 inches or can be taken if at least one side is an unbranched antler.
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Interesting on the rack spread being the metric.
 
My experience with APR was great. Fish Lake was a great deer unit. Literally hunted herds of bucks. The unit was flush with buck deer of all age class.

The excuse of people shooting 2 points and leaving them may be true in units you can road hunt with zero effort like the book cliffs and I’m sure it happened occasionally in all APR units. I’m not naive enough to say it didn’t. But, the positives FAR outweigh any negatives.

Mature bulls and cows get shot on the spike elk hunt in Utah, every year. That does not negate the amount of opportunity provided for both spikes and LE hunters.

I fully support APR and hope they do it on a few units throughout the state.
 
A few years ago, we had Region K tags and a moose tag in that area when it went to 3 point or better. We found multiple dead 2 points, some close to roads and some aways back in. We watched people shoot at 2 points. It was a mess. I also never understood why we want to place 100% of the hunting pressure on the very segment of the buck population that people seem to want to protect.
 
I'm Not Against APR's!

But It Should Be Enforced With BIG Fines When Joe Blow Shoots An Illegal Buck & Leaves It To Rot!

As In Taking his Hunting Rights For Life!






Silentstalker said:
My experience with APR was great. Fish Lake was a great deer unit. Literally hunted herds of bucks. The unit was flush with buck deer of all age class.

The excuse of people shooting 2 points and leaving them may be true in units you can road hunt with zero effort like the book cliffs and I’m sure it happened occasionally in all APR units. I’m not naive enough to say it didn’t. But, the positives FAR outweigh any negatives.

Mature bulls and cows get shot on the spike elk hunt in Utah, every year. That does not negate the amount of opportunity provided for both spikes and LE hunters.

I fully support APR and hope they do it on a few units throughout the state.
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Silentstalker said:
My experience with APR was great. Fish Lake was a great deer unit. Literally hunted herds of bucks. The unit was flush with buck deer of all age class.

The excuse of people shooting 2 points and leaving them may be true in units you can road hunt with zero effort like the book cliffs and I’m sure it happened occasionally in all APR units. I’m not naive enough to say it didn’t. But, the positives FAR outweigh any negatives.

Mature bulls and cows get shot on the spike elk hunt in Utah, every year. That does not negate the amount of opportunity provided for both spikes and LE hunters.

I fully support APR and hope they do it on a few units throughout the state.
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Was fish lake 3-point or better or four-point or better?
 
schoolhousegrizz said:
I would love to hear your experiences in areas where they have implemented APR's. Sometimes the anecdotal evidence if accurate can be very enlightening. Fire away let's hear it.
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Several years back, an APR was implemented state-wide in the Land of Entrapment (3 pt on at least one side).

Several 2 pts lay dead, as others have mentioned, reported by both game wardens and forest rangers. That only lasted a couple of years. You've never been able to shoot a spike buck. It's always been a 2 pt or better, except for the APR timeframe. It's now just managed like normal, 2 pt or better.

A premium unit close to home now has a predominant supply of spindly horned large 3x3's and 3x4's, because the preferred target has been heavy horned large frame 4x4's and up that easily gross 190 - 205. So, a self imposed APR based on trophy qualtiy and bragging rights. And, genetics have suffered.

The Jicarilla Apache once shut down deer hunting on the rez for 3 years (maybe it was 5). They now have a very healthy deer herd with an APR for tribal members of a 3 pt. They also increased predator control like no tomorrow (a key for good herd numbers). The Jic's now offer buck deer hunts to non-tribal members for a minimum low 5 figure dollar amount ($15,000 ish to start) with the expectancy of a 200" mule deer. There are a lot of deer on the Jicarilla.

An APR restriction that makes sense is 3 pt or better for areas that make sense. CO has this in place in some units (maybe a lot of them really) for bull elk as 4 pt or better. 3 pt buck deer would be the equivalent of a 4 pt bull (5 pt really) and 4 pt buck a 6x bull.

Just my anecdotal evidence...
 
Well here is my issue. In wyoming game and fish run APR for a year and go damn well that didn't work cause we didn't gain more mature deer. If they could run it for mutiple years I believe we could see a difference. I always bring this subject up at the meetings and same response from the game fish saying man we didn't notice a difference.

Then they bring it back then take it away.
 
Fishlake was 3 point or better and it was awesome back then. Groups of bucks was no joke. Kids have no idea how good thing’s actually were. It’s laughable when I hear how great deer herds look, laughable.
Are we’re really that pathetic as hunters, with the optics we have today, to use the excuse of shooting bucks that fall under a point restriction and let them lay. Pathetic, unacceptable. We should hold ourselves to a higher standards.
 
fullthrottle said:
Fishlake was 3 point or better and it was awesome back then. Groups of bucks was no joke. Kids have no idea how good thing’s actually were. It’s laughable when I hear how great deer herds look, laughable.
Are we’re really that pathetic as hunters, with the optics we have today, to use the excuse of shooting bucks that fall under a point restriction and let them lay. Pathetic, unacceptable. We should hold ourselves to a higher standards.
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Seriously, I agree!
 
elkassassin said:
My!

My!

My!

How F'N Quick We Forget!

APR'S Were Tried!

It FAILED Miserabley!

Can't Tell You How Many Dead 2 Points We Found In The Book Cliffs!

Did Everybody Forget Why They Quit Doing The APR?

JUDAS!

F'N!

PRIEST!
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I didn't forget, see my post above. I lived through those years and remember the outcome.
 
A few times up here in Montana I have heard the "at least we are not Utah" when it comes to mule deer management. This kind of kicks the chair out from under that argument. I hope Montana takes notice and looks into other ways of doing management because what we are doing is not working on public land. Not holding my breath though. Up here we have lots of hunters that would gladly shoot the last fork horn on earth as long as they can get a tag every year good for 12 weeks of fall.
 
Ya!

These Are The 2 Common Statements That Crack Me Up The Most Down Here In DRATville:


At Least I Filled The Freezer!
That Freezer Must Be A Real PISSCUTTER!

I Needed The Meat!
Ya,What'd That Cost You Per Pound In The Finished Form?





antlerradar said:
A few times up here in Montana I have heard the "at least we are not Utah" when it comes to mule deer management. This kind of kicks the chair out from under that argument. I hope Montana takes notice and looks into other ways of doing management because what we are doing is not working on public land. Not holding my breath though. Up here we have lots of hunters that would gladly shoot the last fork horn on earth as long as they can get a tag every year good for 12 weeks of fall.
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APR’s changed the game in PA for deer. Introduction of crossbows negated the effects a lot.

APR’s are in place for my clubs county in GA. If they were not, hunters would wipe bucks off the map here just like they do in almost every county statewide. APR’s save a ton more deer to make it to maturity than people want to admit.

That’s my take.
 
antlerradar said:
A few times up here in Montana I have heard the "at least we are not Utah" when it comes to mule deer management. This kind of kicks the chair out from under that argument. I hope Montana takes notice and looks into other ways of doing management because what we are doing is not working on public land. Not holding my breath though. Up here we have lots of hunters that would gladly shoot the last fork horn on earth as long as they can get a tag every year good for 12 weeks of fall.
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MT has got to end doe hunts for public lands. Especially in limited draw zones like the Bridgers, it makes zero sense.
 
Take this for what it's worth ($.02). Wyoming has dallied in APR's for quite a few years; off and on and in varying areas. When B/D ratios get lower than they like, they have employed this tactic in the past. But only for a period of 2-3 years usually. One particular unit that I hunted quite a bit was used for this management option. In 2 years, the number of bucks exploded, with many larger than normal bucks being taken. Some 200" bucks were taken the 2nd year after the APR was put in place. G&F kept the APR for one more year, and then dropped it when the B/D ratio got up to where they wanted it. That summer, I found more good bucks scouting than I ever had before (or since). I had at least 10+ shooter bucks located, with one possible 200" class (biggest buck I've seen in this unit). Some great bucks were taken that year. None by me; but I had a blast trying to kill that big one.

So...I had a talk with the biologist for this area. When I suggested that the APR seemed to be producing a lot of larger bucks, he told me that could be due to a myriad of reasons. One was we had great spring/summer moisture that year. True enough, but that is a bit of a reach, IMO. The APR definitely helped bring the buck numbers up. Of course, when 2-3 year old bucks don't get killed, they can get to be 4-5 years old with some luck.

Once the APR's were dropped, the unit was back to normal within a couple years. But...the B/D ratio has since stayed reasonable.

Doesn't seem there was much of an issue with smaller bucks being killed and left, although I have seen/heard evidence of that in other areas.

IMO, APR's are good in certain instances. If left for periods of more than 3 years, I think they can have the unintended consequences of working just the opposite as intended. Too much pressure on the 3pts or 4pts.
 
nontypical said:
Take this for what it's worth ($.02). Wyoming has dallied in APR's for quite a few years; off and on and in varying areas. When B/D ratios get lower than they like, they have employed this tactic in the past. But only for a period of 2-3 years usually. One particular unit that I hunted quite a bit was used for this management option. In 2 years, the number of bucks exploded, with many larger than normal bucks being taken. Some 200" bucks were taken the 2nd year after the APR was put in place. G&F kept the APR for one more year, and then dropped it when the B/D ratio got up to where they wanted it. That summer, I found more good bucks scouting than I ever had before (or since). I had at least 10+ shooter bucks located, with one possible 200" class (biggest buck I've seen in this unit). Some great bucks were taken that year. None by me; but I had a blast trying to kill that big one.

So...I had a talk with the biologist for this area. When I suggested that the APR seemed to be producing a lot of larger bucks, he told me that could be due to a myriad of reasons. One was we had great spring/summer moisture that year. True enough, but that is a bit of a reach, IMO. The APR definitely helped bring the buck numbers up. Of course, when 2-3 year old bucks don't get killed, they can get to be 4-5 years old with some luck.

Once the APR's were dropped, the unit was back to normal within a couple years. But...the B/D ratio has since stayed reasonable.

Doesn't seem there was much of an issue with smaller bucks being killed and left, although I have seen/heard evidence of that in other areas.

IMO, APR's are good in certain instances. If left for periods of more than 3 years, I think they can have the unintended consequences of working just the opposite as intended. Too much pressure on the 3pts or 4pts.
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Thanks for the reply!
 
Correct. First of all, vast majority of whitetail are on private. Much of Texas has a deer every 5-10 acres. I hear similar stats in other deer states. With high numbers and the controls that private land offers, I think restrictions (points or width) can mean more than with public land Mulies. And we generally don’t deal with severe winter die offs that can affect mule deer herds in the mountains. After the rigors of breeding season, a rough winter can take some mature muley bucks. WTs tend to inhabit better year round habitat. That all goes into the equation. And private generally gets the same pressure every year. With public, some areas get slammed this year and others the next year. Not consistent.

But with WTs it is also usually more about QDM (quality deer management). We are schooled in identifying a mature buck by body characteristics rather than antlers. Yes, there are certainly many people who know how to age a muley on the hoof, but prob not as common as with WTs.

From what I have seen, WT restrictions tend to get some results in increasing quality. But with mule deer, it’s really mostly about increasing buck numbers, not an increase in quality that antler point restrictions helps a bit in.
 
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I found a bull in Colorado a few years ago that didn't meet the point restrictions and someone clearly left it to rot (yes, I reported it).

I think for a point restrictions to work there needs to be a "variance" option to avoid criminalizing people who try to comply with the rule. I honestly would rather pay an extra $50 if I shot a non-qualifying buck and still be able to keep the buck. Most people want to be honest, but mistakes do happen.

I 100% oppose antler restrictions for youth.
 
Rie bread said:
MT has got to end doe hunts for public lands. Especially in limited draw zones like the Bridgers, it makes zero sense.
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This should be step one.
I am not for APR. All that the most common APR (four point or better) does is focus all of the hunting pressure on the bucks with the most potential at a young age. A good way to get yearling fork horns to live another year and also a good way to insure that bucks with top end potential never make it to age four. Three or better would be better, but I don't think the results would be much different. If you want to grow truly big deer with APR I would have general three point or less seasons and fairly limited four point or better. Would probably not be very popular. Most of the people pushing four point or better are looking for a way to get better bucks with out impacting themselves. Just not going to work out that way. What do I know though. Maybe people are happy long arming a 155 inch three year old and calling him an old warrior on the net.
 
What about a two point or less apr? Like in some fly fishing rivers where only 12” or less can be kept. Keeps the fish you catch on average bigger.

Keep the breeders and thin the younger deer. Naturally this would be catastrophic in some areas with low numbers/ after a bad winter kill like now but one would also think NO one would hunt the unit.
 
fullthrottle said:
100% support antler point restrictions.

The days of shooting first and asking questions later is a very slippery slope compared to years ago. Everyone has big glass and a phone scope. I just don't that to be a valid there are loads of bucks being shot and left to lay. Sure there is always going to be some low lives around, but you odds of being filmed and turned in have gone way up.

Wrecking the gene pool is complete BS. Doe's carry genes too.

Most valid outfitters in the midwest carry strict antler point restrictions. Maybe you should ask how that's working out. Trophy quality has never been higher.

3 point or better seems like a better option than 4 point or better to me. 2 1/2 year old bucks are going to be 3 or 4 points 90% of the time. 4 point or better serves no benefit over 3 point or better IMO. Might even have a negative effect if you believe the gene pool nonsense.

Personally I'd love to see an antler point restriction.
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Agreed 100%!

Genes are not affected by APR's, that is just ludicrous nonsense.
Just because a 3x4 breeds doesn't mean his offspring will be 3x4. A doe will change his fingerprints into his own unique pattern, just like a human.

Management hunts don't do anything but offer opportunities to hunt mature bucks.
Paunsaugunt has had a Management hunt for years and yet there are inferior bucks all over that unit.

I too would rather see a 3x over a 4x APR, but perhaps their goal is a quicker save and buildup of the buck population by saving the 3x?
 
slamdunk said:
Agreed 100%!

Genes are not affected by APR's, that is just ludicrous nonsense.
Just because a 3x4 breeds doesn't mean his offspring will be 3x4. A doe will change his fingerprints into his own unique pattern, just like a human.

Management hunts don't do anything but offer opportunities to hunt mature bucks.
Paunsaugunt has had a Management hunt for years and yet there are inferior bucks all over that unit.

I too would rather see a 3x over a 4x APR, but perhaps their goal is a quicker save and buildup of the buck population by saving the 3x?
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Love it
 
How about APR with a $200 penalty for “accidentally” shooting one smaller. Takes some pressure off the yearlings, but also allows for some wiggle room and ground checking. I guess guys would need to be honest, which is a lot to ask.
 
willfrye027 said:
How about APR with a $200 penalty for “accidentally” shooting one smaller. Takes some pressure off the yearlings, but also allows for some wiggle room and ground checking. I guess guys would need to be honest, which is a lot to ask.
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Too bad there's not enough law enforcement to handle something like that.
 
willfrye027 said:
How about APR with a $200 penalty for “accidentally” shooting one smaller. Takes some pressure off the yearlings, but also allows for some wiggle room and ground checking. I guess guys would need to be honest, which is a lot to ask.
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I think here it's $1500 and they bust people every year.

Let me tell you. You spend a lot of time looking over a buck before you pull that trigger.
 
willfrye027 said:
How about APR with a $200 penalty for “accidentally” shooting one smaller. Takes some pressure off the yearlings, but also allows for some wiggle room and ground checking. I guess guys would need to be honest, which is a lot to ask.
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What's the penalty for shooting a doe by mistake?
 
roadrunner said:
What's the penalty for shooting a doe by mistake?
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That would be a pretty egregious “mistake” and be more of a poaching situation in my mind. VS a 13 year old kid who gets the two bucks mixed up in his scope, accidentally hammers the 3pt instead of the 4pt. Rather than shamefully walk away, Dad pays XX amount for the mistake and they take the deer home.
 
Tristate said:
I think here it's $1500 and they bust people every year.

Let me tell you. You spend a lot of time looking over a buck before you pull that trigger.
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Antler Spread would be really hard for me! I completely misjudged my Nevada buck because he was 26” ear to ear. Antler point should be much easier..and hopefully any kind of APR would result in folks taking their time to size up a buck, maybe even stalking closer to confirm..
 
slamdunk said:
Too bad there's not enough law enforcement to handle something like that.
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You could self report it somehow along with the proposed mandatory reporting. A box to check. Just imagine you or a kid you are with accidentally shoots the wrong deer. It happens.

Option 1 pay an additional “fee” for the mistake and stay on the right side of the law. Option 2 walk away in shame (which is one of the issues with an APR, nobody wins here). Option 3 tag the deer, don’t pay the fee, but have the guilt of knowing you broke the law. I think most guys these days would choose option 1, and honestly it probably wouldn’t happen often. But who knows.

Without a self reporting fee/penalty, you are limited to walking away (breaking the law) or turning yourself in and being at the mercy of the game warden/judge who may or may not decide to hang you out to dry.
 
willfrye027 said:
That would be a pretty egregious “mistake” and be more of a poaching situation in my mind. VS a 13 year old kid who gets the two bucks mixed up in his scope, accidentally hammers the 3pt instead of the 4pt. Rather than shamefully walk away, Dad pays XX amount for the mistake and they take the deer home.
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Which is why APR's shouldn't apply to youth hunters.

Most youth hunters try to shoot big bucks anyway because that's what dad and uncle want them to shoot.

I doubt the amount of forkies that little Johnny and Sally are willing to shoot would put much of a dent in the small buck population.
 
willfrye027 said:
I like the idea of a deterrent that still gives honest people a way to make it right. Accidentally shoot a 3pt…or maybe it’s a 30” 3pt and worth the extra “fee”.
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They have to sit out next deer season and they have to teach a section of hunter's safety ?
 
Packout said:
A few years ago, we had Region K tags and a moose tag in that area when it went to 3 point or better. We found multiple dead 2 points, some close to roads and some aways back in. We watched people shoot at 2 points. It was a mess. I also never understood why we want to place 100% of the hunting pressure on the very segment of the buck population that people seem to want to protect.
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Packout you do realize Wyoming let the youth shoot any deer in Region K up to this year. Now it's still any buck for youth.

They also have pioneer licenses that can shoot any deer.

Personal it's stupid to let youth shoot any buck when the unit has APR'S. Just enough youth to kill all the little bucks.
 
roadrunner said:
They have to sit out next deer season and they have to teach a section of hunter's safety ?
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As if points have anything to do with age class. The reason Texas pursued it as it kept a lot of 2X2 and 2X3 bucks which were mature 22+ inch bucks that were passing on inferior genes. I won’t argue whether that’s true or not but the biologists in Texas thought so and I saw it in Utah back in the 80s with lots of big 24 inch 2 points doing all the breeding on the Winter ranges in Nov. and Dec. Study up on what Texas biologists determined if you disagree.
 
IDbullz said:
As if points have anything to do with age class. The reason Texas pursued it as it kept a lot of 2X2 and 2X3 bucks which were mature 22+ inch bucks that were passing on inferior genes. I won’t argue whether that’s true or not but the biologists in Texas thought so and I saw it in Utah back in the 80s with lots of big 24 inch 2 points doing all the breeding on the Winter ranges in Nov. and Dec. Study up on what Texas biologists determined if you disagree.
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❓️
 
IDbullz said:
As if points have anything to do with age class. The reason Texas pursued it as it kept a lot of 2X2 and 2X3 bucks which were mature 22+ inch bucks that were passing on inferior genes. I won’t argue whether that’s true or not but the biologists in Texas thought so and I saw it in Utah back in the 80s with lots of big 24 inch 2 points doing all the breeding on the Winter ranges in Nov. and Dec. Study up on what Texas biologists determined if you disagree.
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This is not why Texas made their decision.
 
schoolhousegrizz said:
I'm pretty sure the vast majority of 5.5 year-old bucks are wider than 1.5 year old bucks. Width does correlate with age to an extent.
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Too an extent yes.
A particular buck generally has the same shape to his rack from year to year and usually progresses with age.

But to have width as an age determination for herd management versus APR wouldn't be very accurate.

We've all seen some big "trophy class" bucks be quite narrow by comparison.
Even a lot of top end world class bucks in the B&C book aren't exceptionally wide.
 
slamdunk said:
Too an extent yes.
A particular buck generally has the same shape to his rack from year to year and usually progresses with age.

But to have width as an age determination for herd management versus APR wouldn't be very accurate.

We've all seen some big "trophy class" bucks be quite narrow by comparison.
Even a lot of top end world class bucks in the B&C book aren't exceptionally wide.
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I am not saying that we should use width as the determining factor, but I bet most 3.5 year old bucks and up are wider than the vast majority 1.5 and 2.5 year old bucks. Anyway I hope these changes produce some good bucks.
 
slamdunk said:
Too an extent yes.
A particular buck generally has the same shape to his rack from year to year and usually progresses with age.

But to have width as an age determination for herd management versus APR wouldn't be very accurate.

We've all seen some big "trophy class" bucks be quite narrow by comparison.
Even a lot of top end world class bucks in the B&C book aren't exceptionally wide.
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People very often believe these management decisions are based off of exact ages and numbers.

The reality is a lot of management decisions aren't based of of 1,2,3,4, or 5 year old estimates. They actually are based on premature, mature, or postmature. That's right. Basically deer get broken down into three ages instead of ten.

So a state, Texas, realized deer can not mature in certain counties. The average age of buck mortality for almost 2 decades never rose above 18 months(PREMATURE). After much data collection and research biologists determined the vast majority of bucks under the age of 3 (whitetail) or 4 (mule deer) will have undeveloped spreads. The spread requirements have worked almost exactly as designed.

Now the goal is getting some of the bucks to maturity and the antler restrictions don't quite get a buck to maturity on their own. However it has started an imperfect secondary effect. Hunters in these counties are actually studying and looking at deer longer. At the same time they are being allowed to kill doe. If you feel you need meat, kill a doe. The meat tastes better and a buck gets to live another year and maybe get bigger. So more mature bucks over the age of 3 are being seen.

The state has spent a lot of time trying to design an even better system that will get more bucks above 3 years old but a solution hasn't happened yet.
 
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fullthrottle said:
Fishlake was 3 point or better and it was awesome back then. Groups of bucks was no joke. Kids have no idea how good thing’s actually were. It’s laughable when I hear how great deer herds look, laughable.
Are we’re really that pathetic as hunters, with the optics we have today, to use the excuse of shooting bucks that fall under a point restriction and let them lay. Pathetic, unacceptable. We should hold ourselves to a higher standards.
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I had the same experience on the wellsville in the 80s lots of bucks.
the human variables will always be present regardless of the rules , we find dead cow elk all the time people flock shoot them we don’t stop cow hunts because of it.
 
let’s keep it 4 points for 2 years then on the 3rd year open it back up to any legal buck for 1 year. Then back to 4 points for 1 more year after that we see where we’re at. I would guess that the count could be 70% young bucks 30% older bucks. We still want to keep the buck/doe ratio going . It takes about 2 years for young bucks to get in the 4 point range then we wipe them all out. I think by rotating we have a better chance at having a good overall population age group.
 
On our ranch, we tried to devise a system of restrictions where we would only take mature bucks. And therefore not have to set an actual number restriction on bucks. We are talking a low fence ranch and taking only friends and family.

It failed miserably. Rules were:

8 points or better
Heavy based antlers wider than the ears
Mature body

The main part of failure was in width. Would get a message: “I killed a monster”. And it would be a 14” (outside spread) 3.5 yr old buck. Bucks in our area are generally 16” ear tip to tip.

And would also get 7 point “ooops”

Only thru limited total numbers were we ever able to make some restrictions work.

We also instituted a “cull buck” category. But those have to be photographed and talked about before getting the green light.

All of this is only possible on private. If it was public, and there was just an 8 point or better rule, there wouldn’t be a buck older than 2.5 yrs pretty soon.
 
So, if we go to APR, will that save more does and fawns? I am still trying to figure that out.

I will be honest, I have never been a fan of it since I saw 1st hand on Monroe it didnt work. But now my selfish self is thinking, that it will be good for the short term to be able to shoot more mature bucks, all the while the does and fawns and heard keeps shrinking.
 
What about a 3 point or better, or over 20" in width. I like to track bucks, and when they jump up, you have to make a quick decision. I would hate to walk up to a mature 28" 2 or 3 point. I would hope the game warden in this case would be pretty lenient if you shot a big mature buck that did not meet the requirements. Now if it is clearly a yearling buck, then the game warden should not be lenient. Too bad we cannot say no yearling bucks, pretty easy to tell a yearling buck.
 
Robiland said:
So, if we go to APR, will that save more does and fawns? I am still trying to figure that out.

I will be honest, I have never been a fan of it since I saw 1st hand on Monroe it didnt work. But now my selfish self is thinking, that it will be good for the short term to be able to shoot more mature bucks, all the while the does and fawns and heard keeps shrinking.
Click to expand...
Save them from what?
 
It would be interesting if they would pick a unit and not have any anterless harvest for a couple of years just to see what would happen
 
ORIONTHEHUNTER said:
It would be interesting if they would pick a unit and not have any anterless harvest for a couple of years just to see what would happen
Click to expand...
For the most part, the only place they harvest does is around towns and farms.

Where I live, we have town deer permits (only good within city limits) that are archery only. The deer can either be shot with a bow or hit with a car. There are way too many and they have to be dealt with.
I would love to see them relocated but it would be pretty tough to accomplish.
 
Mountains of research have been done with APR's. The conclusions I've read is that short term they pull pretty good buck numbers into the next age class. Long term, they don't work.

The best solution is to provide enough of everything so that some of the deer in the herd die of old age/natural causes.

Harvest should be spread throughout the age classes with a majority being younger animals.

The reasons that many areas don't have many older bucks is more to do with lots of access, longer seasons, lots of hunters, better optics, long range rifles, endless scouting. In other words, they're lacking security to live full lives.

You can't make chicken salad out of chicken chit...and that's about all you're attempting to do with APR's.
 
GLEDEASY said:
Youth tags should be exempt.
Click to expand...
this philosophy really needs to die in all management discussions.

i'm still waiting for some one to tell me how a deer killed by a 12 year old is any less dead then a deer killed by a 40 year old?maybe they get a special deer ghost that can still breed? i don't know, science has changed so much in the last 15 minutes i cant keep up

if its about herd management the hunters age doesn't matter. if its about opportunity management that's a different topic and they need to stop being conflated.

the 12 year old is still getting handed dads 6.5 manbun and dialing at 1000 after all
 
It appears there are 434 antlerless deer tags available in the draw system. Almsot 8,000 elk in the draw system.
 
JPickett said:
the 12 year old is still getting handed dads 6.5 manbun and dialing at 1000 after all
Click to expand...

Then the 12 yr old shooting the man bun gun isn't who's being discussed when it shouldn't apply to youth hunters.

It's brought up for the kid that just wants to shoot a deer and is strapped for time.

It self regulates. The horn porn dad will get his fix on Instagram, and little Johnny or Sally will have a grin from ear to ear with a little 2x3 that shot their first deer with their 75 yr old grandpa with them...
 
roadrunner said:
Then the 12 yr old shooting the man bun gun isn't who's being discussed when it shouldn't apply to youth hunters.

It's brought up for the kid that just wants to shoot a deer and is strapped for time.

It self regulates. The horn porn dad will get his fix on Instagram, and little Johnny or Sally will have a grin from ear to ear with a little 2x3 that shot their first deer with their 75 yr old grandpa with them...
Click to expand...
like to see how that reg gets written :rolleyes:
 
With youth hunters it is sort of messy.

On the one hand, if you're trying to achieve a goal of older bucks, pretty hard to justify exempting any group of hunters, old, young, archery, etc. Wyoming used to exempt archery hunters from APR's and antlerless deer, I put a stop to that.

On the other hand, youth struggle enough getting the time they need to find a deer, set up for a good shot, and the whole learning curve that goes with deer hunting. They get burned out pretty easy if all they do is hike and look at deer they can't shoot. You can't learn if you don't get to shoot some deer.

In some states its much easier to do both with doe hunts, cow elk hunts, etc. They can gain experience even if they are subjected to things like APR's.
 
no doubt it isnt simple. and im not anti youth hunting by any means. but at some point you need to get down to brass tacks. is it about recovering the herd or isnt it. cant have it both ways. i just think its funny when guys talk out both sides of their mouth.

"we gotta do everything we can no matter what to save the deer! oh but give out 5000 doe tags to youth and let my kid shoot whatever they wants or ill be pissed!"

simple fact is probably 99% of all that hunt are not willing to give a thing. the few members on sites like these who really want something to change represent a very small window of who's out there buying tags every year and are thinking about deer for a total of 2 weeks a year if that
 
Alaska uses an antler spread and point restriction on moose, we are fine to handle spike only elk hunts all over the state. Make the fines hurt and hold people responsible. With optics today there is zero excuses.

The DWR did not want APR the first go around and did not enforce the way it should have been. If they want it this time maybe the outcome will be better.
 
BuzzH said:
With youth hunters it is sort of messy.

On the one hand, if you're trying to achieve a goal of older bucks, pretty hard to justify exempting any group of hunters, old, young, archery, etc. Wyoming used to exempt archery hunters from APR's and antlerless deer, I put a stop to that.

On the other hand, youth struggle enough getting the time they need to find a deer, set up for a good shot, and the whole learning curve that goes with deer hunting. They get burned out pretty easy if all they do is hike and look at deer they can't shoot. You can't learn if you don't get to shoot some deer.

In some states its much easier to do both with doe hunts, cow elk hunts, etc. They can gain experience even if they are subjected to things like APR's.
Click to expand...
And two point or less areas.
Look at big bucks all day long.
Kill small buck.
 
JPickett said:
like to see how that reg gets written :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

"It is unlawful for any buck deer hunter to take, or attempt to take, any buck deer with less than 3 points on each side. A burr or eye guard does not count as a point. Hunters under the age of 18 before or during the hunt dates are exempt and may take any buck deer of their choice."

Pretty simple really...
 
BuzzH said:
With youth hunters it is sort of messy.

On the one hand, if you're trying to achieve a goal of older bucks, pretty hard to justify exempting any group of hunters, old, young, archery, etc. Wyoming used to exempt archery hunters from APR's and antlerless deer, I put a stop to that.

On the other hand, youth struggle enough getting the time they need to find a deer, set up for a good shot, and the whole learning curve that goes with deer hunting. They get burned out pretty easy if all they do is hike and look at deer they can't shoot. You can't learn if you don't get to shoot some deer.

In some states its much easier to do both with doe hunts, cow elk hunts, etc. They can gain experience even if they are subjected to things like APR's.
Click to expand...

On this we agree.
 
roadrunner said:
"It is unlawful for any buck deer hunter to take, or attempt to take, any buck deer with less than 3 points on each side. A burr or eye guard does not count as a point. Hunters under the age of 18 before or during the hunt dates are exempt and may take any buck deer of their choice."

Pretty simple really...
Click to expand...
so a net gain of zero. makes sense
 
Excluding children from an antler restriction is counter productive.

Kids can count and most hunt with a grown up anyway.

If you are worried about kids not getting to shoot enough baby deer make a youth only unit.
 
JPickett said:
i think they all have adults with them. again, if its about recovery it doesn't matter who kills the buck. its still dead
Click to expand...

By law, yes. You're correct. Anyone under 18 is required to have someone over 18 to be with them while handling a firearm. There is a certain population of youth hunters forbidden to shoot a "dink" though. They aren't any different than adult hunters. It's the smaller portion (maybe) that are willing to notch their first tag on a 2x3 or 2 pt or 2x1, or....

If 3x's and up are outside their effective range, they may well give up.

It's hard enough to get youths involved in hunting. If they have that spark of interest, better to fan the flame a little than let it fizzle.

I doubt the ratio of youth to adult is 2:1.

Tristate said:
Excluding children from an antler restriction is counter productive.

Kids can count and most hunt with a grown up anyway.

If you are worried about kids not getting to shoot enough baby deer make a youth only unit.
Click to expand...

Not really. It's not about the youth hunter getting to shoot enough "baby" deer. It's about the portion of the percentage of youth hunters having the option.

It's not a point restriction of 2 or less and we aren't talking about the kid that makes a mistake by miscounting...
 
if there is a priority of youth hunters opportunity over heard recovery that's fine. just make it that. im simply pointing out at some point they cannot go hand in hand if the goal is controlling harvest of specific requirements for the recovery.

again, dead deer's a dead deer, doesn't matter how old the trigger finger was
 

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