13A and 13B deer recommendations

DonMartin

DonMartin

Very Active Member
Messages
2,077
LAST EDITED ON Apr-14-11 AT 08:29PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Apr-14-11 AT 08:16?PM (MST)

I thought I would add some information regarding the recommended deer tags for Units 13A and 13B this year. I got most of this info after making a couple of calls to the Arizona Game & Fish Dept.and from personal observations.

Obviously most sportsmen ought to be interested in the management of what is arguably the best public lands mule deer hunting in Arizona, if not the southwest.

In regards to Unit 13A, while yes there are a few tags being taken off of the archery hunt, the same amount will be put on the general rifle hunt.

There will be not be a reduction or increase in the TOTAL amount of tags issued this year in this unit.

The reason for the reduction of archery tags has to do with the management guidelines that the department has established for areas like the Strip and due to the archery hunt harvest guidelines that have been previously established by the department.

AS far as I can tell, there is nothing new here. The policy on deer harvest (not success) for archery hunters has been on the books for a while.

Now on to 13B.

This year there will be five tags taken off the archery side and 10 tags will be put on the general rifle side. That means a net increase of five tags over the 2010 numbers that were issued. In 2010 there were 30 archery tags and 55 general rifle tags. There were 85 tags total. IN 2011 there are 25 archery tags and 65 general tags, for a total of 90 tags.

I would say that means MAYBE five more deer taken overall this year than in 2010. From a biological point, this is truly insignificant.

Here is my personal observation on the deer situation in Unit 13B. This information is based upon actual obervations and yes Whiskey Man AKA Two Dogs, those hated trail cameras you rant and rave about.

The deer population in Unit 13B has been growing steadily over the last 10 years. I believe there are more bucks there today than were on the ground 10 years ago. And the who can question the quality? More older age bucks---and those that would be described as "Trophies" are being taken each year by hunters, reagrdless if they are guided or not.

Does anyone not see that this unit has had a wildlife manager, Luke Thompson up there for almost a decade, and that Luke has more knowlege of that deer population than anyone else around?

Luke lives in St. George and works in Unit 13B. Personally I have complete faith in his judgement and feel we as AZ sportsmen are darn lucky to have a wildlife manager like Luke with his expertise and experience up there.

I asked Luke about the most recent surveys that have been done by G&F.

It has been a while since a helicopter survey was done up there, but there was one done this year. The results were excellent!

It was great to hear that they saw a large number of bucks: everything from two-points to giant non-typicals. There is a good cross section of age classes of bucks, something that you sure want to see in a healthy deer herd.

Another thing is that this year the fawn to doe ratio was at 57/100. For the Strip that is outstanding! Remember this is not the Kaibab,which is a true mule deer "factory".

It seems that the biological data and ground surveys show that the herd is doing well, and is actually growing!

The increase in tags this year is not going adversely affect the total deer numbers in Unit 13B.

I don't want to see these premium units opened to a huge increase in tags, but knowing these are conservative increases, based on good data, I am not shocked, disappointed or upset.

Bottom line is that everyone has a right to their opinion. I have no problem with that and see a good exchange of info as healthy between concerned parties. But I do think that information should be obtained and evaluated BEFORE we start throwing folks such as wildlife managers and/or agencies under the bus!

I have hunted and been fortunate enough to guide on the Strip for many years. It is, without a doubt my favorite deer hunt.

My hope is to personally draw at least one more tag on the Strip. I brought home my last Strip deer tag unfilled, and have no regrets for having done it. This year I have 12 bonus points and am a resident, so maybe I'll draw again.

Next time is the last time for me. From then on it will be the Kaibab hunt or nothing. The rest of you sportsmen can try to draw this truly tag of a lifetime if you are a mule deer hunter.

Guys,it is bad enough we got the antis trying to shut us down. All the infighting we do must make them smile.

There is no doubt we all care about the resource, but we do have diverse opinions on how to see that the best management practice is implemented.

If like the current president (don't get me started on this!) says, you want change, go the G&F meetings and voice your opinions. Let your voices he heard. IF you don't agree with the archery harvest plan, then step up and be heard!

I don't always agree with everything the department and commission does, but I have the utmost respect for them!

Get involved, be engaged in the process. Sure it takes some time and effort but remember it is your resource!

Don Martin
Arizona Wildlife Outfitters




Don Martin
Arizona Willdife Outfitters
 
I agree with your comments Don and also have full faith that the strip is being managed properly! I remember a couple years ago, I believe they offered 85 rifle tags in unit 13B. This year they are only offering 55 rifle tags and I think that's ok. A couple years ago with more general tags offered I don't remember seeing nearly the amount of negative comments about the management on the strip.

I've been on the strip archery hunt and it's a challenge especially trying to harvest a good buck! Being that this last year was a great year for the strip, especially on the 13A side, I didn't really feel the archery hunters needed a decrease of tags in unit 13A & 13B. It will be interesting to see if the hunt success increases this year with less archery tags in both units....I know game and fish has hunt objectives and success ratios to follow on the archery hunts, but one thing I would not like to see is a constant decrease in archery hunters on the strip in the future. I felt the last couple years g&f had an acceptable amount of archery hunters on the strip.

On the strip I really think the archery hunt has made the strip better the last couple years! The archery success ranges from 30-60% in both units. The rifle success ranges from 70-100% with more tags. Take 13B archery for example, I think out of the 30 tags offered, about 3-4 will harvest a buck over 200 inches. With 55 rifle tags I think 7-14 will harvest a buck over 200" depending on the year. Overall I would much rather take my chances at harvesting a monster buck on the strip during the rifle hunt. I also think the archery hunt has been leaving bigger bucks for the rifle hunters the last couple years and if so I kinda like it! Either way these are just my opinions so I'm not here to favor one hunt over the other!
 
Nothing but "POSITIVES" can be said about these great Deer Units,and the Management that protects it for "ALL",good job and thanks --- Bruce & SilverGrand
 
Thank you for the good information. I am sure hoping to draw this year with max pts and a nice moisture year so far!
 
Don,

Do you acknowledge that when trail cams are outlawed.......and success rates on older bucks drops accordingly......that more tags can be issued.......giving opportunity to more hunters without sacrificing the age class?
 
He ain't dead yet....but hopefully soon will be.

This is a discussion between me and Don M.
 
"This is a discussion between me and Don M."

Then take it to an email or pm. This is a public forum so everybody can join the discussion.
 
Buzz off.

I asked Don a question directed to only him. That's why I addressed it to him......same as he did me in his message. This is obvious to a sane person. Don't interfere, okay Wiz?
 
Whiskey Man,

I just read a post that you did on KOWA's. I also have a pair, and will tell you I run trail cameras and have for years. I can say for a fact that KOWA's will do way more damage in terms of harvesting animals than trail cams ever will.. So tell me. What gives? You sound very hypocritical to me. I think trail cams are fine, and contrary to what you believe, most of the guys I know that use them scout a lot more than those that don't.

I still believe the reason those bucks were taken was due to the rut so strong..and the greenup that the does were mowing down, which is rare for that time of year. Why wasnt 2009 as good?, as there was certainly a lot of cameras us then. This I know.

Don,

I think the strip is headed in the right direction, and dont think the increase in tags will have an impact on the resource. I still believe the reason those bucks were taken was due to the rut so strong.. Why wasnt 2009 as good, as there was certainly a lot of cameras us then. This I know.
 
Canon,

I posted here the other day about the true benefit and goals of users of trail cams. The whole, entire concept is about laziness, incompetence, and using the Achilles Heel of animals (the need for a drink) to locate the living room of one. Find it and read it. Optics (8x, 15x, 32x) still have to be used in the field....and you still need to look in the right place.......and know something about mature animals......and with cams you don't. Sometimes I hate repeating myself.

Why don't you give Don M some time to answer my question instead of putting words in his mouth? He is a big, grown man, and completely capable of answering questions.
 
While I wait for my plane in Oklahoma City, I'll try and answer the question that Whiskey Man poses.

I beleive more mature bucks die from natural causes than ever are taken by hunters.

Mother Nature is hard, cruel and unforgiving. Big bucks by nature are mostly solitaire critters MOST of the time (rut and summer bachelor groups the exceptions).

The Strip is 1.5 MILLION acres of lands than no one can really explore, scout or even drive through in a given period of time.

We all seem to find heads of what are almost always OLDER MATURE bucks when out there--at least that is my experiecne!

I won't go into the predator situation as that is pretty well a known factor. Predators of all kinds kill to survive...they kill or they don't live! And the predator population is pretty good up there.

It it how it is in the natural world.

Last year I had a total of six cameras out.

The buck my archery hunt took was not on any of them. The giant fuzzy headed 34 inch buck that Tony Keller got on our hunt was not on any of my cameras! I found the buck several weeks PRIOR to the general hunt.

There was no team event either. On the archery hunt just me and the hunter. One of my guides had drawn a tag and his dad was there with him.

That's all in our camp!

On the Keller hunt, both he and his 16-year-old son had tags. My long time friend Jay Chan went with me. That's it, no team!

By the way we got the Keller buck on the fifth day of the hunt.

Anyway, got to go, plane is starting to board. Headed home after a great two week visit with my oldest son and his family.

I know this won;t answer all the questions, and many might not agree, but this is my opinion!

Don Martin
Arizona Wildlife Outfitters
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-15-11 AT 01:25PM (MST)[p]"Here is my personal observation on the deer situation in Unit 13B. This information is based upon actual obervations and yes Whiskey Man AKA Two Dogs, those hated trail cameras you rant and rave about"

Don, you're a turd stirrer. You went a wrote a great post but you just had to say those two words... Whiskeyman and Trail Cameras. Sadistic...lol

Whiskeyman, his post was truly about the tag numbers and the condition of the deer herd, as was the other thread that started this whole argument. I think you were the one that started the whole TC discussion on that thread too. Bro, give it a rest. We allll know how you feel about TC's. Awsome, great, wonderful!!!!

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
 
Great post Don!!! I think you're spot on.

On another note,,, I think Kowa High Landers give the strip deer an unfair advantage and if somebody uses them I think they're being lazy because all you gotta do is glass from the road next to the truck drinking beer and eating hot-wings listening to the football game on the satellite radio instead of hiking/walking that extra mile or so to glass like the way they did in the old timey days.




























Gun control is a good aim and a steady rest
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-15-11 AT 08:32PM (MST)[p]""Whiskeyman, his post was truly about the tag numbers and the condition of the deer herd, as was the other thread that started this whole argument. I think you were the one that started the whole TC discussion on that thread too. Bro, give it a rest. We allll know how you feel about TC's. Awsome, great, wonderful!!!!""



AZWALKER,

You are wrong with that comment.

In the same spirit as Don's post, my question (although Don didn't answer it) was also about future tag numbers. I proposed a way to increase them and to give other hunters the opportunity to hunt the Strip without decreasing mature buck numbers and sacrificing age-class and to reward those that actually work hard and hunt instead of cheating to find the living-room of a mature buck. Read it again.

This is some of the same reasoning as that behind creation of the Federal Airborne Hunting Act.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-15-11 AT 09:16PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Apr-15-11 AT 08:59?PM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Apr-15-11 AT 08:56?PM (MST)

""The Strip is 1.5 MILLION acres of lands than no one can really explore, scout or even drive through in a given period of time.""




Another question Don,

The Strip is indeed wild and woolly country and is that big in size. Conventional hunting and scouting can make it seem even bigger and more ominous, which I think is your point in this particular quote of yours. You must begin at 1.5 million acres and reduce it to a huntable portion in order to succeed. Enter the number one goal of water-tank cam users.

A mature buck's actual living room isn't that big and ominous. It's actually miniscule in comparison, even if he has to create a bigger one in order to find does to keep his rutting desire satisfied during late fall.

Do you acknowledge Don.....that with the use of water-tank cams........along with the fact that a mature buck MUST have water to survive and therefore MUST visit watering holes......and that there are relatively few water sources on the AZ Strip's hot, barren, desert countryside..........that the use of water-tank cams is having a severe impact on the numbers of mature bucks harvested and that those same water-tank cams are preventing more applicants and hunters from enjoying the excitement of applying for and luckily hunting this trophy mule deer OIL paradise? Do you agree that this all leads to a stagnation in the number of buck tags that AZGFD will issue in order to keep the age-class intact in spite of the fact that overall deer numbers have increased dramatically in 13A during the past 15 years?
 
I agree with your assessment. You make a valid argument towards TC use on the Strip.

Although most on this site are against you, I have to say I that I agree. I imagine a hypothetical one year ban on TC use on the Strip would prove your point. We know that won't happen, but the results would be eye opening.

Change is hard. If we want to sustain the resource(deer) for future generations, we, as hunters, need to not be so selfish today.

I think WhiskeyMan is offering a sensible solution.

Anyways, two quotes come to mind:

Whosoever desires constant success must change his conduct with the times." ? Niccolo Machiavelli

"Only the wisest and stupidest of men never change." - Confucius
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-15-11 AT 09:53PM (MST)[p]WhiskeyMan:

First of all,there are about 244+- known waterholes in Unit 13B. Again they are scattered in and among 1.5 MILLION acres of land!

There are a lot of places up there I don't go to, for a number of reasons! I know waters that seem to only get visited once or twice every two weeks! Pretty hard to figure out a pattern on those kind of deer.

I'm not sure I agree with your contention that big bucks live in a small area.

For instance, I saw a photo of a buck that was filmed obviously in the early summer. Later that year, one of my hunter's took that same buck who had some very distinctive antlers.

That buck had moved at least 7 AIR miles from the summer range to where he was at chasing does.

Plus a few years back we were working an area that held a really nice buck that I DID have trail cam photos of. Matter of fact, I had photos of almost 20 different bucks.

On the 8th day of the hunt in the same area, we found a buck we had never seen before. This buck wasn't wide but had mass that was awesome!

We took that 7 X 5....

I don't know where he came from, never saw him in person while scouting or on any trail cams I had out.

But he showed up, unannounced and alone. I think he had "migrated" from a far away mountain..

I know you have a real heart burn about trail cams.

But to say that trail cams are having a severe impact on trophy caliber bucks is not something I can agree with.

I can't address your concerns about 13A, though I have hunted there before.

I'll end by saying I think that the AZ G&F Dept. does a good job on the Arizona Strip, and that I trust the wildlife manager to do what's the best for that herd.

Sorry if we don't agree and I appreciate this discussion not getting nasty and/or degrading.

These kinds of diverse opinions are important and the posters should know that even if we don't agree, we will keep it civil.

Don Martin
AWO
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-15-11 AT 10:14PM (MST)[p]Alright Don,

Fair enough, partner. Don't agree with you....but you've always done a lot for AZ hunting and handled yourself well in public. I met you once in Kingman.

According to your math, tho......I need to buy 244 cams so that when I draw 13B this year.......I can absolutely have a 100% chance of whacking a 250" nontypical without worry or regret! 244 cams @ $120 each = woooow.....I better start saving today! I'm gonna have to give up pizza and beer in order to succeed!

Take care, Don.

C
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-15-11 AT 10:41PM (MST)[p]>LAST EDITED ON Apr-15-11
>AT 10:14?PM (MST)
>
>Alright Don,
>
>Fair enough, partner. Don't agree
>with you....but you've always done
>a lot for AZ hunting
>and handled yourself well in
>public. I met you
>once in Kingman.
>
>According to your math, tho......I need
>to buy 244 cams so
>that when I draw 13B
>this year.......I can absolutely have
>a 100% chance of whacking
>a 250" nontypical without worry
>or regret! 244 cams
>@ $120 each = woooow.....I
>better start saving today!
>I'm gonna have to give
>up pizza and beer in
>order to succeed!
>
>Take care, Don.
>
>C

No need to give up your pizza and booze there "C". Just sell those supremely advantageous Kowa Highlanders that you've been belly braggin about and you'll be all set. Ya know, those huge binos that can spot deer at ((fill in the blank)) miles away.......
Lets all chant together..........I am Whiskeyman, and I am a hypocrite......
 
6640img_0448.jpg


Whiskeys quote:

On this cold morning, I spotted a coyote (Oh wait, maybe it was a wolf) standing still in one of the far, above PJ level basins in the snow background. I could clearly see his bushy tail. I checked my topo map......he was almost 4 miles away!!!
 
BTW there Whiskey. It sure looks like you're a "high roller" with your KOWA HIGHLANDERS that you're belly braggin about. You referenced "$120 cameras" in your above post. It looks like the way you roll, you can swing the high end cameras for all the water holes up there, ya know.
Ever heard the term "the pot calling the kettle black"?....................................................
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-15-11 AT 11:51PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Apr-15-11 AT 11:41?PM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Apr-15-11 AT 11:40?PM (MST)

Where in the world shall I begin my search on the Strip? After all.......there is 1.5 million acres there. Which specific areas should I focus on that might simplify my dissection of 1.5 million acres to the small home-turf of a mature buck? How in the world can I simplify this time-consuming, mind-breaking, back-breaking task of figuring out where to glass so that I don't have to get off my couch, risk getting bit by a mosquito, interrupt my football game, and actually hike some? How can I minimize the time I'll have to spend away from my friends.....in order that I might impress them with my big buck from the Strip that I whacked that makes me appear the consummate real he-man?

Should I go right down the street from my house to AZGFD regional office and buy the book that identifies all 244 water sources on the Strip? Might be a good start then, huh? They actually publish such a thing.

But....I'm too sorry-ass to spend time actually sitting water holes and hiking, scouting and glassing near them. I have no idea what Cliffrose is. Nor do I know anything about track size. I also don't know how to read sign......so I can't determine if a big buck is living in that area or not. Think I'll capitalize on the Achilles Heel of all deer, and pursue this solution to my ineptitude. I do know......THEY ALL NEED A DRINK!

Oh wait......I have the answer. I'll buy a number of water-tank cams and set them up on the tanks! WATER-TANK CAMS SCOUT 24/7/365.......ALL WHILE I'M BACK IN SCOTTSDALE MAKING THE BEST USE OF MY COUCH AND BEDROOM!!! WoooooHoooooo......this is the answer. I won't have to actually be there myself! I won't actually have to spend time behind my KOWA Highlanders or any of my other high dollar optics!

All mature bucks have to drink. Most use several water sources within their living-room and are not locked into one. But......If I set up my cams on a whole bunch of tanks......I'll capture a pic of him eventually. After all..... WATER-TANK CAMS SCOUT 24/7/365..........and I don't have to even get off the couch!

Woooooow........what a great idea, huh? Just buying great optics and spending hours, days, and weeks searching and hiking, sweating, blistering, and using some knowledge about the habits and behaviors of mature bucks to locate a potential living room of them is a total waste of time and energy and will.

I wanna take the easy way out.......and then get on the web and attempt to act like I'm not cutting corners and cheating. I then wanna discredit the true, caring hunters on the web who are trying to expose my water-tank cam usage for what it is.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-15-11 AT 11:58PM (MST)[p]And then what.......buy a bigger set of bino's so you can see more real estate that mule deer inhabit, close to water, close to cover, close to feed? Thats friggin lazy huntin dude.....right?
Dam dude, if you're gonna try and be the dude preaching about the use of technology, be a man about it and go after them old school, ya know, loincloth and spear type shiz. Otherwise, shut your pie hole. You're taking advantage of technology to locate animals whether you will admit it or not. Or is it just the technology that fits "your" lifestyle? And thats good enough for you, right?

Nuff said sporto!
 
What is close to cover and close to feed? What is feed on the Strip?

I just placed my order for the not-yet-released KOWA MonsterLanders. They are due out by fall.

They are 1,836x and cost $11,399 and actually have a button on them that you push when focusing on vegetation and it categorizes the quality of the feed that big 'ol bucks like. Then you can focus on that specific zone.......
 
Now you're just being you're usual self. Answer my observations on your use of technology dude. Don't look in the mirror sporto, you might not like what you see!!!!!

If you dont know what and where feed is on the Strip, you have other issues that you're trying to make up for.
 
TipMWiz,

You and Canon must be brothers. I sent him to the thread of a few weeks ago where I pointed out that this is not a technological thing. Water-Tank cams are all about a "work-around" for laziness, incompetence, and time-saving. Binos and spotters don't scout all by themselves 24/7/365.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-16-11 AT 01:03AM (MST)[p]WhiskeyGuzzzzler24/7/365

Thats really cute, dude. You're not the sharpest knife in the drawer, are you?

Yeah, and you do it all "the way it should be done" right? You're laughable by the average of 99.9%......funny. And yet you lay there thinking you're "better" because you only use 25-50x KOWA Highlanders..........
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-16-11 AT 01:34AM (MST)[p]So, Einstein...... (WhickeyDrunnk, 1Chihuahua or WTF ever)


By the mid 20th century, humans had achieved a mastery of technology sufficient to leave the atmosphere of the Earth for the first time and explore space.Technology is the usage and knowledge of tools, techniques, crafts, systems or methods of organization in order to solve a problem or serve some purpose. The word technology comes from Greek τεχνολογία (technolog?a); from τέχνη (t?chnē), meaning "art, skill, craft", and -λογία (-log?a), meaning "study of-".[1] The term can either be applied generally or to specific areas: examples include construction technology, medical technology, and information technology.

Technologies significantly affect human as well as other animal species' ability to control and adapt to their natural environments. The human species' use of technology began with the conversion of natural resources into simple tools. The prehistorical discovery of the ability to control fire increased the available sources of food and the invention of the wheel helped humans in travelling in and controlling their environment. Recent technological developments, including the printing press, the telephone, and the Internet, have lessened physical barriers to communication and allowed humans to interact freely on a global scale. However, not all technology has been used for peaceful purposes; the development of weapons of ever-increasing destructive power has progressed throughout history, from clubs to nuclear weapons.

Technology has affected society and its surroundings in a number of ways. In many societies, technology has helped develop more advanced economies (including today's global economy) and has allowed the rise of a leisure class. Many technological processes produce unwanted by-products, known as pollution, and deplete natural resources, to the detriment of the Earth and its environment. Various implementations of technology influence the values of a society and new technology often raises new ethical questions. Examples include the rise of the notion of efficiency in terms of human productivity, a term originally applied only to machines, and the challenge of traditional norms.

Philosophical debates have arisen over the present and future use of technology in society, with disagreements over whether technology improves the human condition or worsens it. Neo-Luddism, anarcho-primitivism, and similar movements criticise the pervasiveness of technology in the modern world, opining that it harms the environment and alienates people; proponents of ideologies such as transhumanism and techno-progressivism view continued technological progress as beneficial to society and the human condition. Indeed, until recently, it was believed that the development of technology was restricted only to human beings, but recent scientific studies indicate that other primates and certain dolphin communities have developed simple tools and learned to pass their knowledge to other generations.


So your $5000 technology is ok, but my $120 technology isn't? Funny sporto.

You're not the brightest candle on the cake, are you?
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-16-11 AT 04:00AM (MST)[p]Thanks for the up date Don.

I think (if I bottom out in the Ut./Nv. draw) I will do 13a 1st choice bow buck and a late date down south mzzy hunt 2nd choice.

I am in the double digits on deer.

Robb
 
>LAST EDITED ON Apr-16-11
>AT 04:00?AM (MST)
>
>Thanks for the up date Don.
>
>
>I think (if I bottom out
>in the Ut./Nv. draw) I
>will do 13a 1st choice
>bow buck and a late
>date down south mzzy hunt
>2nd choice.
>
>I am in the double digits
>on deer.
>
>Robb
Dont do it!!! A late date Muzzy tag down south in no way compares to 13A/B. With double digit points, hold out a few more years...
 
>LAST EDITED ON Apr-16-11
>AT 01:34?AM (MST)
>
>So, Einstein...... (WhickeyDrunnk, 1Chihuahua or WTF
>ever)
>
>
>By the mid 20th century, humans
>had achieved a mastery of
>technology sufficient to leave the
>atmosphere of the Earth for
>the first time and explore
>space.Technology is the usage and
>knowledge of tools, techniques, crafts,
>systems or methods of organization
>in order to solve a
>problem or serve some purpose.
>The word technology comes from
>Greek τεχνολογία (technolog?a); from τέχνη
>(t?chnē), meaning "art, skill, craft",
>and -λογία (-log?a), meaning "study
>of-".[1] The term can either
>be applied generally or to
>specific areas: examples include construction
>technology, medical technology, and information
>technology.
>
>Technologies significantly affect human as well
>as other animal species' ability
>to control and adapt to
>their natural environments. The human
>species' use of technology began
>with the conversion of natural
>resources into simple tools. The
>prehistorical discovery of the ability
>to control fire increased the
>available sources of food and
>the invention of the wheel
>helped humans in travelling in
>and controlling their environment. Recent
>technological developments, including the printing
>press, the telephone, and the
>Internet, have lessened physical barriers
>to communication and allowed humans
>to interact freely on a
>global scale. However, not all
>technology has been used for
>peaceful purposes; the development of
>weapons of ever-increasing destructive power
>has progressed throughout history, from
>clubs to nuclear weapons.
>
>Technology has affected society and its
>surroundings in a number of
>ways. In many societies, technology
>has helped develop more advanced
>economies (including today's global economy)
>and has allowed the rise
>of a leisure class. Many
>technological processes produce unwanted by-products,
>known as pollution, and deplete
>natural resources, to the detriment
>of the Earth and its
>environment. Various implementations of technology
>influence the values of a
>society and new technology often
>raises new ethical questions. Examples
>include the rise of the
>notion of efficiency in terms
>of human productivity, a term
>originally applied only to machines,
>and the challenge of traditional
>norms.
>
>Philosophical debates have arisen over the
>present and future use of
>technology in society, with disagreements
>over whether technology improves the
>human condition or worsens it.
>Neo-Luddism, anarcho-primitivism, and similar movements
>criticise the pervasiveness of technology
>in the modern world, opining
>that it harms the environment
>and alienates people; proponents of
>ideologies such as transhumanism and
>techno-progressivism view continued technological progress
>as beneficial to society and
>the human condition. Indeed, until
>recently, it was believed that
>the development of technology was
>restricted only to human beings,
>but recent scientific studies indicate
>that other primates and certain
>dolphin communities have developed simple
>tools and learned to pass
>their knowledge to other generations.
>
>
>
>So your $5000 technology is ok,
>but my $120 technology isn't?
> Funny sporto.
>
>You're not the brightest candle on
>the cake, are you?

------

Nice copy and paste from Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology

If you're going to debate an issue, at least use your own words. Or at the very least, credit the source you used.

I have no beef with either of you guys, but its a bit disingenious to post something and imply, or give the impression that you came up with it.

Although it was obvious from the first sentence you didn't write that, however, you discredit your whole argument.

Anyways.....carry on!
 
>>LAST EDITED ON Apr-16-11
>>AT 04:00?AM (MST)
>>
>>Thanks for the up date Don.
>>
>>
>>I think (if I bottom out
>>in the Ut./Nv. draw) I
>>will do 13a 1st choice
>>bow buck and a late
>>date down south mzzy hunt
>>2nd choice.
>>
>>I am in the double digits
>>on deer.
>>
>>Robb
>Dont do it!!! A late date
>Muzzy tag down south in
>no way compares to 13A/B.
>With double digit points, hold
>out a few more years...
>

Carlos, Have you hunted the late muzzy hunt? If so, did you REALLY know how to hunt the desert? Just asking, cause I hear this crap all the time, and most of the time it is by someone who dosen't know what they are talking about.

Also, wait for how long? A couple more years? What is a couple more years guna do if he dosen't have max points? NOTHING!
 
MaddGlasser-

To answer your question have I ever hunted the desert with a Muzzy the answer is no. But you have, and I would venture to say that you and your crew has hunted it more than just about anyone. Would you agree? I will also add that judging from your website that you guys have done quite well. All that being said please explain how the caliber of bucks that you guys harvest in the desert in anyway compare to the numerous 220+ plus giants that the Strip spits out every year. Again, I am not knocking your bucks but in the real world they are just two different classes of deer.

On to the points question. The original poster specifcally stated unit 13A. 13A can be drawn with less than Max by a non-res I do believe. 13B I don't think so, but A, I do believe. The gentleman never stated if he was a res or non-res anyway(unless I missed it).

My post was not an attack on the desert or it's deer. I just simply stated a fact. The quality of the two is not comparable in any way shape or form.
 
Robb:

If you are a NR, then to be quite blunt, you're not going to draw a 13A or 13B tag unless you are in the max pool! That is just a fact of life--we discussed it many times before on this site so need to go over it again. If you are say a point or maybe two behind the max, you have a chance at the late west side Kaibab tags, which are darn good hunts too!

However, I agree with Maddglasser. There are some absolutely boomer bucks in the desert (my personal best buck was taken on a muzzleloader hunt in Unit 44A many years ago) for those who know how to hunt them. And Travis and Troy just happen to be a pair that does (IMO) know how to find and get 'em for those that seek professional assistance. I tell guys all the time privately that should they want to get out of the deer draw, give those boys a call!

Now back to the trail cam issue and Strip issues.

I said there are about 244 "known" waters on the Strip. And they are NOT in the G&F water book! I know cause I got a book. I bet there are other waters that aren't known either. Seeps or seasonal springs or natural dirt tanks that service critters, yet aren't known or listed anywhere. But those to are important to wildlife.

One of the issues I had with the "study" that Steve Cheuvront is doing is that he has (had) just 44 cameras. Hardly enough to see what is going on, except in small localized areas.

For those that aren't aware, Steve--with the blessing of the AZ G&F Dept., got a $5,000 grant from the Wildlife Conservation Council to continue his effort up there. God bless him!

We'll see how that goes...Any information that can be obtained to understand how the critters live is bound to be useful. While I could go on and on about who gets that info--ask Steve--that isn't the point of the discussion.

He's there, gonna be there for a while, is funded,and hopefully the info he gets will help out deer management on the Strip.

My point on all of this--and it is just my opinion--is that yes trail cams are a product of modern technology, just like better binos and scopes, range finders, night vision, long range shooting systems, faster compound bows, ATV's, UTV's and on and on. It is up to the individual to decide what they are going to use AS LONG AS IT IS LEGAL!

They make ice cream in a lot of different flavors. Some I like, some I don't, and you all are the same way.

Rather than toss darts at each other for what we like or dislike, why not just accept that it is an item or technique that is legal to use, and if we don't like it, go to the place where it can be changed--like an AZ G&F Commission meeting!

Hey those folks, after a lot of discussion, with a stroke of a pen can and do control a lot of things on how wildlife is pursued or taken in AZ!

Once again, get engaged if you want "change".

Bottom line is in my opinion that the deer situation in Unit 13B-- and 13A, are being properly monitored and managed given all of the different aspects that I have previously noted.

If you agree, fine, if you don't that's OK too.

I just hope like most of you to be up there again this year in what is arguably the best public land mule deer hunt in the West!

Don Martin
AWO
 
13A cannot be drawn by a NR without max points, and then it's only a 20% chance... without max points but with double digit points they will for sure draw the muzzy tag in the 20% pass...

So they won't be considered in the 20% pass for 13A and guaranteed to draw in the muzzy... the 13A choice might as well not even been put down.

Kent
 
Carlos,
I came across a little rough, sorry. You are right about the amount of 220" deer being taken. There are A LOT more on the strip. But does evrybody want to hold out for 1 CHANCE to take a 220" buck? BTW- google Roger Sorenson's kofa buck from a few years ago, it may make you wonder. That buck is incredible.

I have talked with Robb a few times, he is 1 or 2 points behind max and a NR.

Bottom line is we would ALL love that 1 chance to hunt the strip and POSSIBLY take a 220" buck, but most will NEVER do it. Most who have the tag will never take a 220" buck. I guess the desert is a hunt for those who really would like to hunt AZ and take a great buck, and be able to do it year after year after year.

They really are 2 different worlds.

Sorry for coming on strong, it was not my intentions.
 
MaddGlass, no worries at all amigo..

I should have stated in my above post that I was refering to the Archery Hunt in 13A. I have known of 2 non-res in the last 4 years that have drawn 13A with less than Max. One of them drew it second choice! It can and does happen...The remaining three Strip hunts are out but the A bowhunt has been drawn in the past...
 
Well said Don!

Carlos I'm pretty sure a non-res could draw a 13A archery tag, but not the rifle on 13A/B or archery 13B.

Robb, if you're going strip first choice and your going to burn points on a second choice, go with one of the late Kaibab tags instead! Good Luck!
 
Bow buck in 13a takes max points too?

I thought I had a little fudge room down from max points.....

thx

Robb
 
Thanks----'187

I felt I had a little fudge room by going bow buck in 13a or 13b......vs max and the rifle hunt.

Robb
 
I think it is still is going to take max BP in 13B, regardless of rifle or bow for NR.

The other thing you got to consider is that last year there was a huge take of super large bucks in 13A. Everyone has seen the photos on the Net! I got to believe that some of those who were holding out for 13B archery with max points will now flip over to 13A.

Just my perception, but I'd sure be surprised if this year, a NR without max points get an archery tag in 13A.

Don Martin
AWO
 
Kenny:

What was your tag number? Max points last year was 13 I think.

If you had tag 1-6 then you were in the max pool (20% pass, so could have been less than 13). After tag 6, through tag 30, that would have been a second draw.

I'm off to the Strip today, going on a turkey hunt with that guy from Virginia who has been a quest to take a gobbler in all 49 states that have them.

I hope the birds are talking! He only needs AZ then he is done!

Take care,

Don Martin
AWO
 
Well----hell...

I guess I 'aint' out nothing by applying and just role the dice and see how it plays out.....maybe not do a 2nd choice after all....

Worse case scenario is I get a point and a refund check....I guess.

Thanks for your input fella's,

Robb
 

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