More money-mongering from DWR

What I hate to think about are all the dads party hunting and having another tag to fill....hate to say it but its gonna happen. Heck this might give me a reason to have more kids! Ten kids=ten extra archery tags for me! SWEET! Pretty pathetic...
 
This bothers me more than anything. We do so much for the youth that they think that hunting is AWESOME, until reality sets in and they are not handed everything on a silver plate with a silver spoon being hand fed by the DWR. WHY DO YOU THINK THAT THE HUNTING #'s ARE DWINDLING? Its because once they go hunting with the "adults", it sucks because they dont get everything like they used to.

I feel 100% that they need to be treated jsut like the rest of us. I LOVE TO HUNT. I am 35 and grew up waiting for weeks and months for hunting season to go with my dad in hopes that "HE" shoots a deer or spike elk or a pheasant back when Utah had pheasants. I learned to love it, even if I dont have a tag. I still have that same passion. When I have friends and family that draw tags, or even a distant friend, I try to invite myself because I LOVE TO BE OUT THERE!

WE are not helping the matter by giving the youth more and more and more and more and more opportunity. Because when its over at 19, so are they!

WAKE UP DWR!!!
 
I forgot to mention that I have 4 boys growing up right now, 8, 6, 4 and 2. My 8 yr old begs and does come on the hunts he can handle, and this year my 6 year old was sad because the 8 yr old gets to go and he doesnt. Well, I took both of them out to help a 14 yr old nephew on a general season deer tag, and they had a blast. Then I took both on the pheasant opener and my 8 yr old has been on 3 and loves it, and the 6 year old was his 1st and begging for more.

Take them out and teach them and they will love to hunt for the right reasons!!!

My 8 year old is already planning his OIL hunts and in what order he wants to do them, and what states he can hunt, and if he will try for LE deer or elk first. I am 1 proud dad right now:)
 
An extra few hundred youth bow hunters does not mean $ to the DWR!
It means some kids (Who don't have Dads who help them apply and get all hyped up over hunting) might actually walk away from the "easy to access" joy stick in front of them and pick up a different kind.
I for one applaud the DWR for doing all they can to get kids interested. As the number of hunters dwindles, so does our political influence, and eventually our hunting rights!
 
These extra tag are a good thing. Any time we can get more kids in the field we should. I would like to see kids under 17 be able to hunt all three seasons no matter what tag they get. And if it means some Mr. Muledeer doesn't get a tag that year too bad.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-12-12 AT 10:32AM (MST)[p]@elkantlers: I sincerely understand where you're coming from, genuinely I do. Yet as much as anybody wants to try and defend the state by saying, "oh this is for the next generation, we have to get them involved & interested in hunting...otherwise our sport and heritage will slowly die off and disappear". Those of us who've been playing their game for far too long now, we're not buying it anymore and know damn well that this doesn't have a thing to do with introducing youth to the sport...yet has absolutely everything to do with the sustainability of their cash crop and truck/salary revenue, bottom line. Anybody can very easily look up the state's public numbers for themselves, and see that it's no secret the state of Utah is spiraling downwards in regards to our deer herd population and number of bucks...a trend that will ultimately continue to manifest itself as long as our wildlife is managed with the corporate mentality of monetary gain over future preservation. If we (myself included) want our children and grand children to have any resemblance whatsoever of the hunting experiences we all had as kids, we simply cannot continue to throw more people (tags) at the problem and somehow magically expect the quality of deer herds to increase and/or expand...that's simple logic & mathematics. Obviously I cannot and will not speak on behalf of anybody other than myself, so with that said...if it came right down to it (which I think eventually it will) in order for my daughter to experience and enjoy the same hunting memories that I have with my father, to even have the chance at harvesting a decent buck other than the yearling 2-point with milk still on his lips we have to end it now or cut back substantially...and if that means that we have to shut down a handful of units for a duration of time, drastically reduce tags, increase age limits, go back to "3-point or better" or withdraw hunting privileges for x-amount of years...whatever the case may be then I for one am willing to make those sacrifices so that down the road I don't have to try and explain to my daughter about "the good ole' days" when there used to be deer on this mountain and why things are the way they are. Please don't confuse or interpret this as anything specific to do with youth hunters, because as I mentioned I understand and to an extent agree with your position...however this has been caused by all of us and we all need to make the necessary sacrifices to get things turned around before there simply are no deer for our current youth & future generations to hunt at all.
 
So littlebighorn, say that kid goes out with Uncle Bob for a few years. Now Bob is too busy and Little Timmy has nobody to ake him. HE WILL BE OUT OF HUNTING(not interested) JUST LIKE THE REST OF THEM. What Little Timmy needs, and what I have been doing with my kids, is get them out there with out the any expectations. Because when they expect something, and 1 day they dont get it, THEY ARE GONE!!! I have seen it the last few years with kids that have had a youth deer tag and can hunt all 3 season, then all of a sudden life sucks and so does hunting and they dont want to go anymore because now they have to work for something instead of it given to them on a silver platter.

I hope my oldest son understands that there are no expectations. Its all about getting out being out there with people. Just a few weeks ago, he was begging to go out for some ducks. So we went out and saw a few but nothing in range to shoot. So after along walk back to the truck, before I could say a thing, he looked at me and said "Dad, it was still fun. We dont always have to kill something to have fun." I looked at him with a giant smile on my face. I THINK HE HAS THE RIGHT IDEA!!!

I still dont think giving the youth all these extra benifits will help them like hunting more. Its up to US AS PARENTS to get them out and ENJOY the outdoors and hunting with ohters while they are young and I believe that thier love of the hunt will grow with the experiences of being out there and not jsut holding the gun or bow.
 
+1 Robiland

I couldn't agree more. They have to learn how to properly define "success" when in the field.

We have to take the time and teach our kids, right from the beginning, that it's all about time with family and friends in the beautiful outdoors.

There is so much we can teach them to enjoy while hunting. The critters, the birds, the fresh air, the solitude, the quality time away from the hustle and bustle, etc.



"The problem with quotes on Internet Forums is that it is often difficult to verify their authenticity." - Abraham Lincoln
 
I don't think allowing a youth to have an archery tag is giving them a dder on a silver platter. I would bet that the success rate is < 10% for these youth. So if anything it is getting them out in the field every year with a slim chance of success. They said that only 450 youth bought the tags the last year they were offered. Very little impact on our deer herds, but 450 more youth enjoying the outdoors.
 
Get over it! When your kids are 12 you will be first in line to buy a tag. I can't believe anyone with kids thinks this is a bad idea. As a dad I would be grateful to sit a year out as long as my son had a tag.
 
Youre right, if the tags are there, I hope my kids get 1. Its the same with the EXPO tags. I dont agree with them or the 500+ tags that are auctioned off to the highest bidder and all other expo tags offered. BUT you are right, the tags are there so I wil take advantage of them.

I will however still teach my kids so that when they turn 18, they wont drop out like the majority will. I hope I can teach them to love the hunt, and not the tag/weapon in hand. Because reality is when they turn 18, its OVER for them for tags. Then they get to help others. I can only hope and pray that at that age, they will still love the hunt even if its not thier tag in hand.

But you are dang right, I will put them in for all tags and hunts that the DWR is bribing(SP) the youth with. Because I wont have a tag, but I will be able to help them. HMMMMM.
 
>Get over it! When your kids
>are 12 you will be
>first in line to buy
>a tag. I can't believe
>anyone with kids thinks this
>is a bad idea. As
>a dad I would be
>grateful to sit a year
>out as long as my
>son had a tag.


No. No I won't, for this reason...in 10 years time when my daughter is legally old enough to hunt in this "market" (oops, I mean state), if our deer herds & wildlife are continuing to be managed for monetary gain rather than preservation the way we're currently seeing...there simply will not be any deer or any reason left to hunt. I completely agree with your willingness to sit out a year so your kid can have a tag, and if you consciously read what I wrote back a few posts above that's exactly what I'm trying to expound upon...in my sincere opinion we ALL need to sit out a few years starting now while we might still have a chance to save & regain the numbers, otherwise if we don't and keep throwing wood at this forest fire the problem will only escalate and the situation continue to spiral downwards for future generations of hunters. Agree with me or disagree with me on this specific topic, but we can't keep ignoring & denying the problem that's laughing at us while on it's way to the bank...we have to think about the bigger picture down the road, not about available guaranteed tags for ourselves or for our kids. Regardless of who's in charge or who makes the rules it's irrelevant, because just like anything else in the realm of our political spectrum...change will never come from the top down, it has to be imploded and re-built from the bottom up. Until the citizens (hunters) in this state are willing to quit playing their game by standing up to them and refusing to participate, nothing will change and the pit-fall will continue to gain momentum...I'm pretty positive that I'm ever so closely nearing that point, where I will gladly take my money and "business" elsewhere to a neighboring state...who actually values their wildlife as opposed to the revenue created from the blatant & intentional slaughtering of it.
 
I agree with you that the DWR is managing widlife with revenue in mind, but if you want to get all red faced over it start with the amount of limited entry tags they are giving out. They are giving out way too many Wasatch and Manti elk tags for starters. they few extra youth that get to hunt because they can go buy a Archery tag is not hurting anything and is one of the good things the DWR have done.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-13-12 AT 07:54PM (MST)[p]Agreed, it's not just the over-abundance of general season tags that's the problem...and I apologize if that's how what I implied was interpreted. With that said a prime example would be what they did to "1000 Lakes" this year, a unit that I hunted in 07' and had some pretty good bucks...after a few years of being so/so it was now just starting to become a really decent place to find a fair amount of 170's buck, so then what does the DWR do? Opens it back up to general to be decimated once again. Another LE example would be the "Book Cliffs", I was fortunate enough to hunt that unit with my bow this year and harvest a 160" buck...after the hunt I looked at the issued permit numbers online and was shocked to see just how many tags were allotted for that one limited entry unit, especially during the rifle hunt!!! The bottom line and one thing we can all agree on is their motive, which is revenue generation...and until that changes regardless of what I say or how mad I get it's not going to change, and boy is that thought infuriating.

It's not specifically this "youth archery hunt" that has me upset, it's the basic principle of what they're doing...adding rocket-fuel to the fire rather than water.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-13-12 AT 10:37PM (MST)[p]It's obvious you are very upset and passionate about what you are saying bbentley, but I'm having a hard time pinning down exactly what you want accomplished. If, by accusing the DWR of managing herds simply for revenue generation, are you saying they issue too many tags, and you want to reduce tags again? And by doing that, it will help grow the deer herds or just help grow more/bigger bucks?

Which programs would you like to see eliminated to reduce expenditures? Or, how would you want the division to make up for revenue should they again cut tags? Or do they even need the amount of revenue they have now and what they are doing with it is a total waste of time? Interesting dilemma



www.unitedwildlifecooperative.org
 
I think that most responsible adults will teach their kids that, even with a tag in their pocket, it's no picnic out there getting a deer. It takes effort. Especially with a bow. I would be more inclined to see your point if it were rifle permits you had an issue with. Even then, I don't know too many dads that wouldn't forgo a permit for themselves for one of their kids. It's opportunity. And just like you argue above, it's opportunity to get out in the woods with Dad and other family and enjoy the outdoors. Anybody that has picked up a bow knows that it takes several years to hone skills good enough to fill a tag. Some may be lucky early but most put in the time and effort. What better way for a dad to teach some hunting skills than to be right by his sons/daughters side with an archery tag. I respect your oppinion but definately disagree. I don't buy the revenue argument either. That few of tags doesn't even generate enough money to put gas in the fleet much less fluff the truck fund. That's stretching it a bit don't you think.


It's always an adventure!!!
 
Are you guys kidding?

This is a great opportunity. It guaranties that dads that archery hunt get to hunt with their kid if the kid doesn't draw their first choice rifle tag.

What possible detriment can there be to a few hundred kids going archery hunting? Finally for the first time in history, the DWR does something to actually provide opportunity rather than selling out to the highest bidder and you guys #####.

Crazy world we live in is all I can say to some of these comments.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-15-12 AT 05:01PM (MST)[p]>It's obvious you are very upset
>and passionate about what you
>are saying bbentley, but I'm
>having a hard time pinning
>down exactly what you want
>accomplished. If, by accusing
>the DWR of managing herds
>simply for revenue generation, are
>you saying they issue too
>many tags, and you want
>to reduce tags again?
>And by doing that, it
>will help grow the deer
>herds or just help grow
>more/bigger bucks?

It's basically a conjangled mess of all the above, as vague as that sounds...I can see issues with and acknowledge all of your points in regards to how they're being managed. It's no secret, our deer numbers suck...period. I simply do not understand how the DWR can rationally believe and/or justify that they can legitimately sustain, expand and improve upon those already rapidly decreasing figures by issuing more tags and therefore end up with more harvested and wounded deer...granted I've never been a math whiz, but it's not adding up and the states numbers reflect that. Essentially, yes...we need to cut tags drastically, by at least 50% in my honest & sincere opinion, which only a few would agree with anyway and has no bearing whatsoever. Please forgive the cliche expression, but if we as a society of hunters who love our sport and way of life...do not "bite the bullet" now by taking proactive action to repair & restore our deer herds rather than continue to pillage & plunder them, it won't be long before these youth that division is trying so desperately to get involved and interested won't have any deer left to hunt at all.
 
bbentley, you are throwing out a knee jerk reaction to a much simpler situation.

Buck deer harvest has very little, to no effect on deer herd size. Reducing tags by 50% will not grow our deer herds and in all likelyhood make them shrink even more.

Herd size is largely dependent on winter ground carrying capacity. If the winter ground for a given year can only sustain 1000 critters, and you bump up the buck to doe ratios to 25-35-50% you reduce the number of does who carry fawns into the next season. Yes, we'll bank some bucks for future years, but have fewer does and thus fewer fawns the next year. Anything above 10 or 12 to 100 buck to doe ratio is a detriment to GROWING a herd.

Obviously we'd love to have 25-100 buck to doe ratio's, but with limited carrying capacity, it is a recipe losing even more of our deer herds. When you get 25-100 or above ratio's you simply run into the breaking point of fawn recruitment vs. carrying capacity and your herd can not grow.

Please understand, I never said 10-100 buck to do ratio is good for our hunting experience, but simply that at those ratio's the herds can grow the fastest.

Having a few hundred or even a few thousand extra youth archery tags with a success rate of about 3% or less is probably beneficial to our deer herds.

Cheers,
Pete
 
I grew up in Utah. There are those of us who even since young kids begged our fathers to take us with to the duck blind or deer camp. I'll admit, I've had hunting fever since bb-gun age. Those small, trivial experiences out with my dad blew up into some of my fondest memories that I wouldn't trade for anything. What does that have to do with youth opportunities? Read on...

Less kids are catching the hunting bug like we did as kids. Why? Big reason is too much competition. Entertainment at their fingertips. Why go freeze in a tent, when I can shoot 20 jaguars on this new Cabelas video game eating popcorn on the couch mentality. Another reason is hunting has gone two directions. Do you want a quality hunt? Apply for a decade or more. Do you want a mediocre hunt? jump in the October pumpkin patch and hang on!
Kids will never have enough points for quality hunts. So kids are stuck on hunts where odds are, they will not kill...like the rest of us.

Problem is they don't have the great memories yet as their foundation which helps mold them as hunters. We all know that our past memories built are strong foundations and are what have made us who we are today as hunters. Lots of kids are starting off on broken foundations of not-so-good memories.

I now live in Oregon. I will not say everything is managed well here; however, youth hunting opportunities are a strong priority in this state with multiple youth programs. Most of the youth hunts may not be trophy hunts but they are hunts that give the youth an experience without the crowds and a little bit better of an overall hunting experience. With some homework, children have all kinds of opportunities to build a strong foundation of success and good memories...and you as their grandpa, father, mother, or whatever can be by their side which makes it that much sweeter.

My attitude has shifted from a selfish "me" wanting to hunt the biggest buck in 2-3 states every year to taking my children out and giving them a shot at big game hunting. It is a natural, instinctual behavioral change; you want your children to be successful and share in the things that bring you joy.

In 20 yrs I want to be able to say I gave my children (my son and 2 daughters) every chance I could to learn to hunt and enjoy experiences/memories with family in the field like I had. So far, my 13 yr. old boy who loves techy stuff (video, computer) as well as sports, has benefited greatly through Oregon's youth opportunities and he has found room to enjoy hunting and his foundation has become rock-solid with 5 bucks under his belt (thanks to youth opportunity). My 11 yr. old girl killed her first turkey last year and can't wait for turkey and deer season this year. She will have two deer tags this next season...I might have time to buy me a tag?

By teaching and giving them this opportunity, they'll either build a strong enough foundations where they will become an active hunter themselves, or at least one day when the ballot hits this nations to ban our hunting tradition, even if they are not avid sportsmen, they will look back at when you took them on a fun hunt and the fond memories and they will support the hunting community.

I believe in less tags sold to the highest dollar. I believe most antlerless hunts should be provided for youth. I support the idea of setting a certain amount of tags aside for youth opportunity even if that means an adult will have to hold out for a year and find another hunting opportunity somewhere else.
 
So how many extra permits? they claim this will not take away from the adult hunters, they will be offered above the regular archery cap. You think the W.F.extended archery is overloaded now lol! wait until next year.
So even with suffering deer herds we are going to offer more permits above and beond. It would make a little more sence if the dnr cut rifle permits and sold them as youth archery permits.
Your right this is just another way to generate revenue for the State.
It would be nice if someone in there making the decisions had a clue.
 
>You think the W.F.extended archery
>is overloaded now lol! wait
>until next year.
> So even with suffering deer
>herds we are going to
>offer more permits above and
>beond. It would make a
>little more sence if the
>dnr cut rifle permits and
>sold them as youth archery
>permits.
> Your right this is just
>another way to generate revenue
>for the State.

"...and BINGO was his name-O."
 
@: C3

If a couple hundred more bucks (statewide) is sincerely a detriment to a growing deer herd, than what in the world would you call 80,000+ general season hunters annually inserted into the field?? According to the DWR's own figures, as of 2011 just over 21,000 bucks were harvested...seems to me that this has become much more about generating revenue than preserving wildlife & sustaining conservation, that ratio alone 80,000/21,000 says much more about the character & agenda of the DWR than anything else.

http://wildlife.utah.gov/hunting/biggame/pdf/annual_reports/11_bg_report.pdf
 
Ever wondered how they come up with these annual reports? Im not saying there wrong just wondering how accurate are they? How many hunters never report there kill how many do there own butchering,The dnr does not count deer herds annualy do they?
or is it mostly a guestimate?
 
>If a couple hundred more bucks
>(statewide) is sincerely a detriment
>to a growing deer herd,
>than what in the world
>would you call 80,000+ general
>season hunters annually inserted into
>the field??

You have it backwards.

A few hundred more bucks harvested is GOOD for the deer herd in our current state of affairs. It takes at least 90,000+ hunters to harvest enough bucks to keep them (bucks) in check, so that they don't use up too much of the available carrying capacity.

What don't you understand about carrying capacity and buck to doe ratios? You are obviously quite clueless about how game management works.

Go do some studying on how the world actually works before you come spraying about the "character and agenda" of the DWR.

If you are suggesting that everyone in Utah wants the whole state to be exclusively about trophy hunting (which by the way is a horrible management tool for building deer herd size), you are quite mistaken.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-24-12 AT 01:53PM (MST)[p] Im sure the dnr as no clue what the buck doe ratios are in each unit or what the carrying capacity is. How many deer herds are below there objective, So lets offer more permits to increase the size of the herd?, still need bucks to breed those does
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-05-13 AT 00:07AM (MST)[p]>If you are suggesting that everyone
>in Utah wants the whole
>state to be exclusively about
>trophy hunting (which by the
>way is a horrible management
>tool for building deer herd
>size), you are quite mistaken.

That is by no means what I'm trying to convey or imply in any shape or form, if that's the legitimate interpretation you took away from my concern...I hate to break it to you but in that regard you're the one who's unfortunately mistaken. Just how many permits "need" to be issued in order to kill enough deer "sufficient" enough to supposedly maintain, sustain and improve our states deer herds...I don't think anyone in the division sincerely knows the correct answer because if they did, I honestly don't think we'd continually be seeing year after year a constant increasing of tags being issued solely for monetary gain. If conservation and preservation are genuinely the goal of the DWR (which it's not, we all know it's revenue generation), how in the world do they or any of us expect them to accomplish that goal if they perpetually increase the number of hunters while simultaneously decreasing the number of animals as a direct result...make all the automatic assumptions you'd like regarding my argument, however one cannot deny that there's a real problem here with our herds and if the cause is not exponentially too many hunters in the field season after season...than what is it???
 
>LAST EDITED ON Jan-05-13
>AT 00:07?AM (MST)
>
>>If you are suggesting that everyone
>>in Utah wants the whole
>>state to be exclusively about
>>trophy hunting (which by the
>>way is a horrible management
>>tool for building deer herd
>>size), you are quite mistaken.
>
>That is by no means what
>I'm trying to convey or
>imply in any shape or
>form, if that's the legitimate
>interpretation you took away from
>my concern...I hate to break
>it to you but in
>that regard you're the one
>who's unfortunately mistaken. Just how
>many permits "need" to be
>issued in order to kill
>enough deer "sufficient" enough to
>supposedly maintain, sustain and improve
>our states deer herds...I don't
>think anyone in the division
>sincerely knows the correct answer
>because if they did, I
>honestly don't think we'd continually
>be seeing year after year
>a constant increasing of tags
>being issued solely for monetary
>gain. If conservation and preservation
>are genuinely the goal of
>the DWR (which it's not,
>we all know it's revenue
>generation), how in the world
>do they or any of
>us expect them to accomplish
>that goal if they perpetually
>increase the number of
>hunters while simultaneously decreasing the
>number of animals as a
>direct result...make all the automatic
>assumptions you'd like regarding my
>argument, however one cannot deny
>that there's a real problem
>here with our herds and
>if the cause is not
>exponentially too many hunters in
>the field season after season...than
>what is it???

Your question in bold above is the first thing I can actually relate to in your many posts. As to blaming the DWR for selling too many tags to fill their coffers without regard to our wildlife, well, let's just say I think you are more than way off in that assumption; and since you haven't shown anything to back up your assertions, I will continue to call them 'assumptions'.

Here are some statistics for 'food for thought' for you from the various agencies in the west. I don't include them all but it's a good data base. The UDWR gets just under half their income from tag/license sales.
http://wildlife.utah.gov/dwr/about-us/191-financial-overview.html

Here is a copy of the latest audit of the DWR from the state:
http://le.utah.gov/audit/11_14rpt.pdf

Here is some financial info for Colorado:
http://www.parks.state.co.us/SiteCo...trategic PLan/FINALAnnual Report_04.27.11.pdf

The Colorado main financial page:
http://wildlife.state.co.us/About/Reports/Pages/AnnualReports.aspx

Some financial info on Arizona:
http://www.azleg.gov/jlbc/11app/fis.pdf

Some more on Nevada:
http://ndow.org/about/funding/pdfs/budget_presentation_2009.pdf

And Wyoming:
http://wgfd.wyo.gov/web2011/Departments/WGFD/pdfs/WGFDANNUALREPORT_20110001745.pdf

Notice the size of the budgets, and what the expenditures are. Reference tag/license sales, hunter numbers afield, etc. Lot of information to sift through and compare. Am I saying that game agencies don't have financial issues? Nope. Here is a little tidbit of Colorado's issues:
http://www.denverpost.com/opinion/ci_20815910/editorial-colorado-division-wildlifes-messy-accounting

Can there be improvement on how the department spends its funds? Sure. But to blatantly say the only reason they sell "exponentially more tags" is totally false. You keep saying the DWR sells more and more tags, year after year to make more money so the division can fatten up. Nope. Here are some numbers on total tag numbers sold over a few decades. Note the downhill trend in buck tag sales, to its current low:
http://wildlife.utah.gov/hunting/biggame/pdf/annual_reports/11_bg_report.pdf

Lot of info so you'll actually have to do some reading to locate the information and decipher it. It's been pointed out dozens and dozens of times, and accurately so, that killing bucks has has very little to do with the overall health of mule deer herds. The only time it does have an impact is when the number of bucks is too low to breed all the does. Of course, this is all blown out of the water if you don't believe the science and the data, and rely on personal view and emotional rhetoric.

Don't just look at Utah, look at the entire picture, the same thing is happening across the landscape in every state. Mule deer are cyclic and their populations depend highly on weather, which effects their food supply and general habitat. Want some info on that? Here ya go, a simple google search on mule deer population trends, just pick your poison and read:
https://www.google.com/search?q=uta...F-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7GWYE_enUS316

Some more? Yep.
http://muledeerworkinggroup.com/index_files/Page1525.htm

And one that is pretty darn relative to your above question:
http://www.muledeerworkinggroup.com/Docs/Mule Deer Changes.pdf

The scope of today's mule deer hunter has changed dramatically over the years, and it continues to evolve. It is our responsibility as hunters (and by that, the largest group of conservationists) to educate ourselves as much as possible so that the decisions we make, the recommendations we push to our respective wildlife game agencies is viable and applicable.

I sincerely hope you and those of your ilk bbentley392t, strive to do that. I know I will.

Sooooooooooo, nope, a few hundred or so youth archery tags will do nothing but good for our sport, at least in my opinion.


www.unitedwildlifecooperative.org
 
Obviously I can't and won't speak on behalf of any other hunter out there, but with that said if the poor state and numbers of our deer herds are to blame solely at the hands of the current region wide "cycle"...this sure is getting to be quite a lengthy and ever declining cycle, so then should we in no way question or analyze management and/or permits issuance and blindly accept "cycle" defense??? I mean, by all means please correct me if I'm wrong in yet another one of my assumptions here...but you're sincerely willing to tell me and bank on the notion that Utah's steadily declining buck-to-doe ratio along with the quality of bucks being allowed to reach maturity, have absolutely nothing to do with and have no correlation whatsoever with the management practices & philosophies of the DWR???
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-05-13 AT 11:04PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jan-05-13 AT 10:48?PM (MST)

LOL.... I can see right now your mind is already made up, so I won't try to change it. Don't pawn off a simple statement I made as the entire reason for mule deer problems, I think you are more intelligent than to take that road. You know as well as anyone there are many reasons why the mulie is just holding it's own, and hunting bucks is wayyyyyyyyyyyyy down the list. If you are hell bent on blaming the DWR, have at it. Do something about it. Take all your data and create change. Go to the legislature and demand change. Don't just pizz and whine on the internet, DO SOMETHING ABOUT YOUR CONCERNS.

EDIT:

By the way, if you can prove what you are saying with hard facts and data instead of assumptions and innuendo, I'll be the first in line with you on the steps of the Capitol...



www.unitedwildlifecooperative.org
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-06-13 AT 00:11AM (MST)[p]It's pretty difficult to invoke & implement any shade of significant change or reform when those in the division, wildlife boards and state legislature are just as caught up in the strategic political game as the "big boys" are...the positions & opinions of those at the top of the pyramid are essentially all that matter and as a direct result are the only positions & opinions that will be adhered to and addressed, what we lowly peasant folk have to say will never be given the time of day when those who have the money & power to influence those running the show are exclusively given first dibbs to do such bidding.
 
Brad, you have an incredibly strange view of the current state of affairs. You bag on the "big boys" at the top, yet concur with their assessment that we should cut the common man out of the game and sell it all off to the highest bidder. While you don't say that directly, your belief is that the DWR is catering to the money, power and influence by issuing so many tags. This couldn't be further from the truth.

The "big boys" want the number of tags to be cut drastically so that they can sell more and more and more of what's left for higher and higher and higher amounts.

Can't you see that your suggesting "significant change or reform" is playing right into the hands of those that want to sell our whole and complete resource to the highest bidder?

In the end of the day reducing hunters in the field will not improve our deer herds and will turn over more of the resource to those that wish to take it specifically from you and hand it to those that can and will pay.

Cheers,
Pete
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-06-13 AT 09:18PM (MST)[p]A) The "big boys" you're referring to, are definitively not the same "big boys" that I'm referring to...with that said thus far you've got a solid record of making false automatic assumptions on my behalf, no biggie.

B) You're absolutely right, perpetually inserting more hunters into the field essentially resulting in more harvests & more wounded animals...naturally fits as the missing ingredient to the prolonged improvement and sustainability of future herds, silly me I never was very good at math.

We'll just have to simply agree to disagree, no harm or fault in that...let's put a fork in it.
 
>...with that said thus
>far you've got a solid
>record of making false automatic
>assumptions on my behalf, no
>biggie.

You are the one suggesting wholesale malfeasance by the DWR and suggesting it's a result of the politics of the "big boys" at the top. I'm not making any assumptions, simply restating your completely incorrect statements, even if you still don't understand that they are completely incorrect.

>B) You're absolutely right, perpetually inserting
>more hunters into the field
>.....
>I never was very good
>at math.

Another completely incorrect statement. There have never been fewer deer hunters in the state of Utah than 2011 and again fewer this year. The total deer harvest has never been lower in the state. It's obvious that you are being quite silly with your math skills.

>We'll just have to simply agree
>to disagree, no harm or
>fault in that...let's put a
>fork in it.

The only thing I'd like to stick a fork in are the either blatantly dishonest or woefully ignorant statements you keep making.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-07-13 AT 00:39AM (MST)[p]Restating your unfortunate misinterpretation of what I've said implies nothing more than a lack of comprehension (whether intended or sincere), I adamantly believe that you've been trying to read between the lines and make this entire discussion entirely more difficult and/or complicated than it really is...it's become pretty clear that neither of us are making a genuine attempt to convince or persuade the other for whatever reason or gain, and we've now resorted to worthless emotional banter. I can only begin to wonder why it appears as though you're taking such personal offense to what's been said, which is literally nothing more than one persons opinion...inherently worth about the same, nothing.

My bottom line is this, which it has been from the very beginning...I personally feel as though there are way too many tags being issued for the deer hunt here in the state of Utah, tags that are being issued & sold at a rate where there simply isn't enough "product" to back it up...literally no different than the process of fiat currency inflation, continually increasing supply while the value thereof plummets because there's nothing there to fall back on. We CANNOT rationally expect or hope for the quality & quantity of our deer herds to improve, by throwing more money & people at the problem...something somewhere has to give whether it's drastically reducing tags or temporary idling of certain hunts/units, there has to be a change in the way the wildlife is being managed otherwise there's simply not going to be anything worth preserving for the future.

BTW: I just sent you a PM on facebook if you'd like to continue this discussion, we don't need to be wasting anymore time and valuable MM data/server space on this topic...looking forward to hearing back from you there. :)
 

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