The decline of the trophy mule deer

Geez Mike,

I hate to point this out, but it seems your motive to hunt every year along with controlling who builds a house and where is really quite selfish.

The fact of the matter is this, you can complain about houses being built on winter range but it will not stop.

The other problem is even if you want to hunt every year you just can't do it. The population of those who want to hunt far exceeds the available resource. The tags have been and must be more limited. If this is selfish then so be it.

You say "you just want to hunt deer." Well buddy, I just want to hunt trophy elk. Do you think they will give me a Pahvant tag every year just to keep me happy? Nope, ain't gonna happen!

Predator control? I hate to tell you this, but where I deer hunt the lions have been decimated.

Look back at my previous post. If this is a family outing concern go camping in June, take 'em to a pheasant farm, be a scout master in your kids troop, or go to Disneyland.
 
MULEYGUY,very well said,not an attack,but some good facts about a problem that is huge in the west......AMEN to post #95
 
I've been away from these sites for a time. Got tired of all the meaningless prattle. This is a topic that is dear to my heart however and I am glad to see that so many feel the same way I do. Maybe if enough get smart and fed up, it will be more than meaningless. I've read every post and applaud the passion in each point of view. I'm not going to pick a side as each has been argued beyond anything I could add. I want to submit a couple of things, however, that I think ought to be considered.

Whether you are talking about predators, doe hunts, CWMU's, # of tags, chute planes, guides, unethical sportsmen, technology, length of hunts, hunt dates or almost any other factor that is affecting mule deer in Utah, those issues are the responsibility of the DWR. Their JOB - their RESPONSIBILITY is to oversee and regulate these variables. Their job is to provide positive results and there should be some accountability. It is a given that human beings will take advantage of every means avaiable to attain something as groovy as a trophy mule deer. For some they are better than money. Better than food, sleep or comfort. Better than family, friends, freedom, sanity or rational behavior. They have become better than gold. Someone has to be held accountable for the RESPONSIBLE management of this resource with the health of the herd as the INDEPENDANT variable.(you know, the one that all other factors and decisions are dependant on) Is that not, by assignment, the fish and games job?

Fifteen years ago there were huge bucks on the Pansagaunt. Really. There were alot of them. Now there are not. Really. Who is accountable? If the fish and game can make you believe you are then we've lost the battle. They are! They need vision. They need help. They need to do better. That is not just finger pointing that is BLAME! Yes I am blaming the DWR for the huge decline in the quality of the Pansagaunt unit. Imagine that. They had help from Arizona. Thousands of does have been killed in the past few years in the name of declining winter habitat. Thousands of fawns not born to a herd that is struggling terribly. Have these people been to the endless sprawling winter ranges under the Pansagaunt and Kaibab mountains and witnessed one deer starving to death? One? I don't believe there has been one! "OOps, we miscalculated," they will say at some future point when some responsible study shows what is now painfully obvious to the most casual observer. Quit killing our deer!

Fifteen years ago they tossed management of a huge fraction of the Pansagaunt deer herd to what is now called the Alton CWMU. Norm Mckee wrote an article in the paper about how it would be a win, win, win for sportsmen, landowners and the deer herd alike. Ooooops! Terrible mistake! Results? Who'se accountable? Of course there were those who at the time could see the incongruence of a rancher crying depredation to an agency and refusing to let willing hunters harvest deer in the area to simply remedy the problem. Big win for the rancher, huuuuuge loss for the sportsmen and deer. No question. Now most people can see that there was an obvious problem with putting those who stand to make the most $ by selling our deer herd - in charge of our deer herd. It's called a conflict of interest. Can't blame the ranchers. Just the DWR who miscalculated the toll it would take. Oops!

Accountability! Without it there will be no reason for change as change must happen; with those who are responsible accepting responsibility for results of their management.

I agree with so much of what has been said on this thread. I really hope someone somewhere is listening and can make a difference.
 
That was good kg.

You use the paunsagaunt as your example, which is a good one, but Utah's deer herd problems are statewide.

From my stand point it begs the question, why does the number of tags sold stay the same year after year when the resource continues to struggle? Sure we all may have to take one for the team by staying home some years, but something must happen.

When those who manage the wildlife are asked questions and made to be held accountable, it seems all they want to do is argue and justify the actions.

I will second your thoughts, hopefully someone somewhere will take notice and take action. I thought at one point SFW was our voice, but they are fighting the issue.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-10-03 AT 01:37PM (MST)[p]Here is what I have noticed on our family and extended family?s ranches, here in Northern Utah. Where there has been no habitat loss what so ever & grassing by both sheep and cows has continued as it has for 100+yrs. In 1991 deer numbers were great, but Elk #s were low. Some ranchers were still using 10 strike/poisons even though they should not have been, hardly any one I new owned a 3 wheeler & some ranches as of 1991 I had never even seen and elk, Well along comes the winter of 1992-1993 and we loose 90% of our deer herds and things have never been the same even though the winter of 83-84 also wiped out%90 of our deer herds and by 1991 numbers were back up
Well after 1992 Coyotes were becoming more and more and more common no more poisons to kill them, trappers were trying there best but hardly making a dent while lions were getting the blame and becoming the scape goat for all this predation now I not saying that lions are not part of the problem but I'm in the opinion that they not near the problem that SFW and other groups claim them to be I can go out on ant given snow storm and in ever single draw there are at least 2 sets of (mountain coyote tracks) and for every lion track you cut you have at least cut 30+ coyote tracks now what the hell are they eating when there are very few rabbits, game birds around Well I will tell you fawn, fawns, fauns for the last 10 yrs every spring the fawn crop has been awesome 2 fawns per doe was common but after ever mild winter was finished the yotes had killed most of the fawns completely off with that said lets move on to the next part of the problem Elk in increasing #s on the winter range one winter range in particular is the winter rang on the ?east side of hwy 65 Morgan & Summit county?s east canyon area? prior to 1993 I had never seen an elk on the whole winter range then they started to appear more and more each year now there are at least 300 elk using that winter range and the deer are scattered all over the place Now the 3rd change is ATVs, ATVs have evolved form 3 wheelers that were clumsy to take off road into 4XA quads that will go just about everywhere and almost every one of my favorite ridges or draws now has a beaten down ATV trail right through it. Fat, skinny, young old, you name it and you will find them ridding them there even I have been guilty of this a time or two I take my atv down into a draw to get an animal out and the next thing I know someone else see the tracks and before you know it we have a beaten down ATV trail I pound fence post across the ATV trails and they winch the post out of the ground no matter how deep you put them. The last change and one of the most dramatic changes I think is the introduction of the CWMU hunting unit that basically run from sept1st thought now 10 with a rifle so now our mule trophy mule deer are hunted for 60+ days and there chance of survival goes wayyyyyyyyy down & with more trophy mule deer being taken out of these areas then ever before the majority bucks left to breed are the buck that no one wants to shoot. Over the years I have noticed I huge difference in crap bucks everywhere were talking it is not uncommon to see 28 inch 2 and 3 points doing all the breading, now I know there are operators who care about trophy mule deer and manage there herds in such a way as to limit hunters and increase the age of the overall mule deer but there are a few that we neighbors and they only care about one thing $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

So here is my opinion why trophy mule deer and becoming more and more rare each year
1.1993 loose 90% of our mule
2.Loss of effective predator control = loosing all our fawn crop each year that is why number are not coming back
3.Trophy bucks being hunted for 60+
4.Huge increase of elk on what was one mule deer winter range only
5.ATVs trail in ever-good bedding area
6. shut down the doe hunts lets get the numbers up first

You add the changes up and it is very easy to see why trophy mule and mule deer #s in general are way down

Also this year was the first year up north here where I actually did see a cute plane during hunting season. Don?t know what the pilot was doing but maybe 30incher is right and these planes are becoming one of the new tools for hunting trophy mule deer

P.S excuse the spelling and punctuation
 
On Target you did well too. Your points are valid and you have a very good sample.

I have an idea. Would one of you computer geniuses get permission from Founder and send this thread to the DWR, SFW, and all RAC people? We have a 105 replies from people who take this subject to heart. Many of which are very informative. This would be a good sample of how people feel about our deer herd. Maybe, if just one person would listen to what is said it could get the ball rolling towards legitimate change.

I could help run down e-mail addresses.
 
Solutions to the problem may take thinking outside the box. What if someone suggested we all take a year off and hunt predators? Crazy? Or a start? What if someone suggested we do this and still pay a habitat fee to keep the fish and game afloat? "Cull only" youth hunts on the Pansagaunt under a light (at night) with conservation officers present. Shoot em right out of the fields to curb depredation. Fish and game officers that treat people like humans to enlist help of locals rather than badge heavy nit picking letter of the law PR nightmares. Quit hunting deer with a rifle in September. Just quit! etc. etc.
 
I doubt it will ever happen but I have heard from a bunch of guys that are willing to pay twice as much and hunt half as often. I would absolutely pay more for a tag every other year if my opportunity to kill a mature buck would be increased by doing so. This would take the hunter numbers from the 90,000's to the 40,000's. May not be the solution to our problem but I feel it would definitely help. It doesn't mean you have to stay home every other year, you just don't get a tag every other year.

NvrEnuf
 
WELL

IT AIN'T HARD TO SEE THAT ON TARGET IS ON TARGET AND I CAN TELL HE LIVES IN THE SAME STATE THAT I DO AND HAS BEEN SEEING THE EXACT SAME PROBLEMS AS ME!!!

ON TARGET,THE ONE WHERE YOU MENTION THE A.T.V.'S,THERES A BUNCH OF THEM HERE THAT THINK IT'S THEIR RIGHT TO DESTROY EVERYTHING THEY WANT TO,I AGREE WITH YOU,THE ONES THAT DON'T LIKE IT:TOO BAD!!!

DON'T FORGET:I DO HIGH ELEVATION TUNE-UPS FREE OF CHARGE!!!

HUNTING SEASONS RUNNING 6 MONTHS OF THE YEAR??? I DON'T THINK YOU'VE GOT TO BE A BIOLOGIST TO FIGURE THIS ONE OUT,DO WE HAVE ANY THAT CAN SEE WHAT'S HAPPENING HERE OR DOES THE HERD HAVE TO BE DECIMATED BEFORE THEY CAN ACTUALLY SEE IT???

SHUTTING DOWN THE DOE HUNT'S??? WHEN YOU GET THE MONEY HUNGRY UDWR SHUT DOWN ON THIS ONE LET ME KNOW!!!OH,I FORGOT,WE'VE GOT TO GET THE BUCK TO DOE RATIO BACK IN PROPORTION,WHAT THE HELL DO THINK HAPPENED???I'LL SAY IT AGAIN,I'VE SAID IT A MILLION TIMES,TAKE A HERD OF ANY ANIMAL AND YOU ARE TRYING TO IMPROVE THE HERD SIZE,LETS SAY YOU HAVE 5000 FEMALES AND 2 MALES,(HERES THE HARD PART)DO YOU DO SOMETHING TO IMPROVE THE MALE NUMBERS OR DO YOU START KILLING FEMALES TO GET THE MALE TO FEMALE RATIO WHERE YOU NEED IT???I'LL HAVE THE UDWR ANSWER THIS ONE FOR ME!!!

YOU CAN'T HUNT SIX MONTHS OF THE YEAR CONTINUOUSLY WITH SEVERAL OVERLAPPED HUNT'S,REMEMBER WHEN THE PROCLAMATION WAS ABOUT 8 PAGES AND COVERED EVERYTHING???NOW THERE ARE SEVERAL AND NOT EVEN THE OFFICERS KNOW ALL THE RULES & REGS.!!!

THE SAD PART IS:THE PROBLEMS ARE COVERED IN ABOVE POSTS BUT I JUST CAN'T SEE THEM(DWR) BEING SMART ENOUGH TO CLAMP DOWN SOON ENOUGH TO SAVE WHAT NEEDS TO BE SAVED,SAD BUT TRUE!!!

I CAN SEE IT IN THE MAKING,THEY WILL TRY CLAMPING DOWN ON ONE PROBLEM AT A TIME INSTEAD OF SEVERAL THAT NEEDS ATTENTION RIGHT 'DAMN' NOW!!!IT WON'T WORK OUT THE WAY THEY'LL TRY AND DO IT!!!

I COULD GO ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON BUT I WON'T,THERES BEEN SEVERAL FACTORS MENTIONED ABOVE,AS FAR AS THE CHUTE PLANES GO I HAVEN'T SEEN MANY IN THIS HUNTED OUT AREA,TO KILL A TROPHY IN THE AREA I HUNT YOU'D HAVE TO HAVE 12 CHUTE PLANES AND A YEAR AROUND SEASON TO ENHANCE YOUR ODDS,THE TROPHY HAS GOT TO BE THERE BEFORE THERES A CHANCE TO HARVEST ONE!!!

WELL THAT OUGHT TO BE ENOUGH TO PISS SOMEBODY OFF!!!

THE ONLY bobcat WONDERING WHATS IN STORE FOR THE YOUNGER HUNTERS???
 
Wow! I see the majority of hunters here from Utah are sincerely concerned and feel the same things need to be done. On Target, Bessy, kg, ktc, the list goes on.....

Fishon and Don I am calling you out here, not to argue, but you are SFW and the sportsman's voice is being voiced. Can you HELP us? Go to bat for us regular guys. Will ya? Can you Don and the others lobby for the worthless mule deer, set aside sheep stuff for a bit, and voice our opinions. You are on a personal level with Jim the biologist and mule deer guy with the DWR. Take this thread to those who matter and lobby for us! The deer hunters! Please!

Let's get the ball rolling and help this struggling resource and set aside the selfish motives and excuses that hold no water.

All we want is a healthy herd with a chance at quality. Others have done it, why can't we? A healthy herd would offer greater opportunity for all.
 
Come on SWF forget the sheep for year and help out us average Joes. But please dont sell another over priced Paunsgant tag to raise the dough. Russ
 
conch,
You see, you did get the point of the post I wrote. This really is a personal matter with those who hate Ryan Hatch. Your disgust of him has been well documented. As for being impolite to 30inchbuck, well that was a satirical comment directed towards his comment about his double degrees from an institution of higher learning, nothing more. He left himself wide open for that soft jab because he made his educational background a part of his qualifications to comment on the topic. If you bother to reread the historical archives of my posts while visiting the MM sight you'll find I haven't comments of other posters' spelling or english composition skills. 'Nuff said.

Since he's the author of this thread, I find it a reasonable question to ask him how many of the buck mule deer tag holders in southern Utah and northern Arizona he believes used chute planes to scout prior to their hunts? When you paint with as broad a brush as he has you have to expect your gonna slop some outside the borders. An example of that is his tirade against all those who have been or are part of the Dedicated Hunter program.

As for discussing Ryan Hatch, if you want to go rounds about that...I'm your Huckleberry.
 
How simple it is, really, to understand. It's amazing this thread got so long.........Habitat, habitat, habitat and good management. End of story.
 
bobcatbess,

I am glad you brought up that other little trick game depts use to increase buck to doe ratio's.......don't increase the bucks, decrease the does and voila! you have a better ratio. Anybody every wonder why the metric that the game dept uses to assess the "health" of a herd is the buck to doe ratio???? That is not increasing the bucks, and especially the mature bucks, all it is is sleight of hand. It looks good "on paper", but it doesn't do anything by make more of a problem. The other point somebody brought up about how they shut the hunting down in some of the Utah units, but left the number of tags the same so other areas just got hammerd more. That is another good example of more sleight of hand.

One other comment on habitat, habitat is a factor in the decline of mule deer, but it is by no means the biggest one. there are millions of acres of great mule deer habitat out there and the mule deer herds still suck. I can go to areas in Wyoming and Montana that have less people and less cows living in these counties then they did in the 70's and there isn't a big bad housing development for 500 miles, but the mule deer are still in trouble. The mule deer problem is systemic over the entire West. There is no way that poor habitat is the cause over the whole mule deer range. I know you guys in Utah and Arizona see some degradation, but come to wyoming, Idaho or montana, there is no problem with enough good habitat. You have to remember who is drilling this habitat thing into our head.......Fish and Game dept's. It is much easier to say that poor habitat is the problem instead of saying it is poor management.

THE ONLY constant across the entire West is hunting and predation......too many deer being killed by humans and predators. Some areas do have poor habitat, some areas do have too many elk, but these factors only serve to exacerbate an already dire situation. Slow the killing down and mule deer will be just fine. We aren't living in the good ole' days, game dept's need to sh!tcan everything they are doing and sit down and design a whole new management philosophy for the 21st century. States that have gone to full draw statewide are leading the pack. Whoever suggested cutting the tags by half and increasing the fees by double is on the right track. And the Game Dept's are the ones that sportsmen need to hold accountable, you can't work through them, you have to go straight to your legislators so they "force" the depts to change. They will not change on their own. It is useless to try and work through them, go around them to the people that control their pursestrings.

muleguy
 
Freedivr,
Yourright to a point it does take habitat very important. It also take taking pressure off those deer. You simply cant take to many bucks. When the buck to doe ratio is way outa line the does dont have babies.
Case in point I just got off the phone with a rancher freind of mine near Bronco Texas . 10 years ago they seldum saw a deer . Of late they have been increasing because of less cattle grazing and whateever else has helped but they have done great the last few years. They have done so good that his hunters last week went 7 for 7. First of all he should never had 7 hunters on his land as he only has 20000 acres and part of that is farm land.
He effectively wiped out his breeder bucks for the rut wich is about to start. On his land there were probably less than 18 bucks he took half of them . He is excited because two of them were very large deer and he plans on raising the price for next year. I told him that country cant take that amount of harvest of mule deer. Whitetail are totally different you can hammer them and the population will continue to grow totally differnt animal. Habitat is very important but wiping out large numbers of breeder bucks stagnates the gene pool and leaves does open and the poulation as a whole and the numbers of mature animals will drop.
Every mule deer tag should be on a draw and that goes for Texas too even though we are 97% private land some land owners can manage mule deer but others cant. Improve habitat and make sure water is available and contol numbers being taken off the land and we can make the mule deer herd healthy once more. In some cases its too late primarily from human encroachment so you out there that live in nice homes recently built in the foothills and other prime habitat cant say a thing about that but oh shucks its too late for alot of areas but not all by a long shot .
As to the chute planes or whatever they are just plane criminal, selfish, ignorant crap is all I have to say about them.I know how they are used I have seen many of them on the"sTRIP" in Arizona and in the Navajo country and that country they are devastating to the deer . You can pin point them so easily in that country and I dont care what anybody says the deer wont be to hard to find a week after finding him from the low flying craft. I fly a crop duster and beleive me what I see from the air I can hardly beleive sometimes never seeing them from the ground even trying very hard with binos all day on Sat and Sun. They do enable the high percntage harvest of highly fertile and verile dominant mature trophy breeder bucks before they can spread their seed in the rut. Just think if two 190 inch deer are taken from a 50 square section peice of land two years in a row . That peice of land is done for for putting out anything but a few 130 inch deer and then theat class gets beat up along with the forkys and throw in drought and predators road kill and poachers .
Totally close all deer hunting in a large area for two years and police the area extreme with super coyote and lion control then open it back to limited draw hunts and see what happens.
My freind in Bronco has a long way to go to get any decent deer back on his place now and its ashame because he had a good thing going. You should see the sheds we found a couple years ago.
 
I'D LIKE TO KNOW WHERE THE HELL MY OTHER POST WENT???

NO PROFANITY OR NOTHING,JUST THE HONEST TRUTH!!!

I GUESS SOME DON'T WANT THE REST TO HEAR THE TRUTH HUH???

THE ONLY AGGITATED bobcat!!!
 
Bobcat,
LMAO!!! I see 3 of you posts on here. Hit the refresh button and you'll probably see it.

Wonder where 30 Something is today. He ought to be proud of himself for have broken the 100 post mark. Some guys think numbers are everything. LOL!
 
AZBS,
Who needs enemies when they have ?friends? like you?
I think, if you will reread the historical archives, you will find that it might be you that has a problem! As far as painting with a broad brush, Bud, step back and objectively read some of your posts! Contrary to your believes, everything in the mule deer world doesn't revolve around your paladin! Jim, he's just one man! REALLY! Maybe the old saying "any publicity is good publicity" applies here.
 
Habitat?..... The Grand Staircase Escalante National Monument, The Paria Plateau National Monument, The Kaibab Plateau, The Arizona Strip....... These places haven't been significantly encroached upon or changed since I have been alive. The Feds have nearly guaranteed they will not be with all of the new designations and acts. While I may not agree with the whole idea, it has to be good for habitat. Habitat?..... There is more habitat with no deer in it on the Pansagaunt than there has ever been! Huge, bitterbrush filled, warm, red canyons that never get enough snow to winter kill one deer - with no deer in them! There is an army of 25" 2x3's getting luck all day, propigating inferior genes. Ooops! We have not factored this into our management plan for our "premium limited entry" unit. (not my job so they won't let me - or you do it) Instead we cry habitat, poachers, that infernal Ryan in order to defer blame. We can no longer be buffalloed by this idea that if you are not a DWR biologist, you don't know. It is PAINFULLY obvious. Who is accountable? Habitat is a tiny, tiny part of our problem. It is a "stick your head in the sand," cop-out answer to the question that we are begging to be answered.
 
kg you are pretty good at this.

Still no GrandSlam or Fishon. Let's keep this alive and at the top so maybe a response will be had.

You make a good point concerning habitat. Sure the drought affects things, but in no way is it responsible.

I still think we kill too many deer by permits holders. Look at the book cliffs and Vernon. They shut it down and the deer herd flourishes. Then, they over harvest the deer until the unit is crap again.

Stay with me kg. Maybe SFW or Jim the biologist will see this and respond if they ever get Karl Malone and sheep off of their brains.
 
I'm not critical of SFW. I'm not critical of guides, sportsmen, family men, motorolla, lieca, pilots or even unethical sportsmen. In my book everyone is free to do, and pursue the way they see fit. Hell, lock em in and shoot em against the fence if the DWR isn't going to do anything about it. I can't really do a thing about it. That is why the agency who is in charge of the regulation of all of these things is so important; so much more important than all this speculation. I am critical of them. Results? Accountability? I agree with the above post that says we have to go over their heads to demand accountability. What I think about your hunting style is not too important as long as it is within the law. We need to quit beating each other up over speculation and petty things that are legal. Work to change the laws if you will. In the mean time we need to get together. When something becomes law we need to help the DWR enforce it.
 
NOPE, KG, you only got 1/2 of the reason (the habitat part). The only way to increase wildlife numbers is by improved habitat AND good management, that's all I was trying to say. Ask any biologist and that's the answer you WILL get.

P.S. I don't know that habitat is a tiny, tiny part of the problem in that 8 straight years of drought was a pretty effective way to wipe out 8 straight years of fawn production in Utah. Might be a little bigger than just a "tiny" part of the problem, yathink?
 
OK - IMPROVE HABITAT! FIX IT! CAUSE IT TO RAIN! CAUSE THE DESERT TO BLOSSOM LIKE A ROSE! ...................I'm waiting................. CAN'T - CAN YOU. Then back to my point: start controlling the things you can, and do it based on the hand mother nature deals you. To assume weather a constant in any management plan would be idiotic. Quit piss-whining about no rain and manage the deer herd accordingly. React to it. If it means taking six years off - do it. It's your responsibility to make those decisions if you are in charge. Habitat is a factor. Not one we can control when speaking of drouth. One that should control us - if we could only control ourselves! Management! Results? Accountability?
 
Management! Results? Accountability?
The best 3 words I have heard on this topic yet and I realy liked the last one Accountability
 
No argument with anything you'd said, kg. My point (again) was that it isn't the quads affecting trophy muleys as much as it is habitat and their management. And of course we can't make it rain, but we can do things to improve habitat (protect wintering ranges from development, controlled burns of overgrown areas of chapparral, quit daming up rivers, stuff like that). No need to get all riled up, we're all on the same page here about a need for better management and improving habitat (and let me spell that out......improvement and management within our means).

Accountability? Don't we all wish.....kinda like Bill Clinton saying he was accountable....you ain't being accountable if there isn't a price to pay for NOT being accountable......

Go spend some of that high energy level you have against the folks that are "accountable" (although that's really a big joke I'm sorry to say). POUND on the desk of your congressmen and USFS and let em know. These are the guys who continue to allow things like the forest service creating huge burms on logging roads and putting up gates (to eliminate people access way back in). That ain't their job......
 
Point taken. Too much caffein. Gotta cut down. Like I said, this is a topic that hits close to home for me. Try as I might, I can't help but get wound up when I think of what we had, what we have now, and why.
 
Yep, me too. Totally a dang shame. Let's go punch someone in the Forest service for starters :eek:)
 
First of all, great comments and ideas from all. It was a good idea to get this whole post in front of some big wigs that are over making the decisions. I need to address some questions and digs that have been thrown at me above. BCBoy in your post 98 you say I'm here to brag about my post being so long when I was defending the fact that someone had called it a loser. You also stated, "The point is this is a dead horse. We should all stop kicking it around." This really irritates me I'm sorry. You're up there in what you call the good old days with big bucks all over. We're down here in crap and you're asking everyone to just drop it and get on with something else. I don't think so because "everyone" and I repeat "everyone" that has posted on this site in my opinion cares what is happening with our mule deer here in the west or they wouldn't be posting their feelings. It's obvious that changes need to take place and we all need to push to get our ideas to the proper people. As for the question by AZBuckSnort about how many that I know of that have planes. I know of 8 guides in Southern Utah that fly them and 3 of my friends just bought theirselves one this year because they got tired of competing with the guides. I also have a guide friend that is going to get one because a possible client called him to guide on the strip and come right out and asked him if he had a chute plane. When he found out that he didn't he went elsewhere. The pressure is on for these trophy bucks that are left. That's 12 planes that I know of and there are not very many deer let alone big bucks in that country. I guess this is what makes me so concerned. I've hunted Southern Utah and Northern Arizona since I was a kid and it kills me to see it go to crap. The limited entry units are taking most of the chute plane abuse as far as I can tell. That's where I see them all the time because I spend alot of time Yote hunting. I feel that it has been a factor in the downfall of the Paunsagunt which is now crap. I just hate to see Arizona go the same direction. As far as my grammar, I didn't think it was that important on this sight. AZ yours stinks too. Isn't that Black calling the Kettle Black. I don't want to fight here, I'm just as concerned as many of you about our mule deer and what the future holds. Any more questions let me know. Thanks for all your great ideas and let's hear from all. How about some of these big wigs getting on here as mentioned above and take this to the people in power. I'll check the post Monday because I've got to go spend some time with my wife. That's what's most important anyway and then the mule deer.
 
Again, 30 inch, I feel that you have missed the point. What have 99% of the posts on here been telling you? There are way more factors that are more important to getting your herds back to the glory days than stopping chute planes. Am I for chute planes? No. I am for Trophy Mule Deer. I love it when people post pics of monster mule deer. I could care less if they are from Canada, the Pauns or the Strip. I think everyone on here has told you what needs to be done. Fight the good fight and focus your energies on something that will actually make a difference.
But you choose to ignore what everyone is saying. And as I've said in my other posts, more power to ya. Hope you get the results that you are seeking. Take this post to someone that is actually in power. If they read it, they will see that the sportsman have some real valid concerns. But, I doubt they will glean the overwhelming desire to ban chuteplanes from existance.
 
30inchbucks,

Everybody here wants to see the number of quality bucks increase and we are all passionate about hunting these amazing animals. Its not your passion and committment that I question so I went back and reread your original post very carefully and again came away with the feeling that you have some underlying issues. The last paragraph, or conclusion, of your post pretty much sums it up:

"All we need is a statement that reads like this, ?I am in full support of amending the law to make it unlawful for any person to use chute planes or any other aircraft that hovers at any time of the year, in order to locate, observe, or harass any big game animal or protected wildlife? along with your name and full address"

I read on either this forum or one of the others that this was an article you had written and typically the last paragraph would be the conclusion and would sum up the point of the article. Your conclusion pretty much spells out what your real intent was.

Here are a few more points in your article that I find interesting seeing as to how this article was about more than just chute planes as you claim.

"A chute plane is an aircraft that holds 1 to 2 passengers and is able to hover at slow speeds. It uses a parachute for wings, a light-duty engine for power, and is also referred to as an ultralite. They are becoming more and more popular especially among the guides."
And your article is not going to be just about chute planes?

"Most of these bucks were purchased with the almighty dollar."
Most? I doubt it, the tax bracket you refer to all but negates the word "most" in this statement. Its also an insult to the guys that go out and hunt hard and find what they are looking for.

"But these areas are creating moneymaking opportunities for the guides, landowners, and even the fish and game (Governor Tags). These landowner, conservation, and governor tags are being sold to the rich for prices ranging from four to one hundred thousand dollars! The rich are able to hunt these units every year at the prime times and the rest of us are being left out."
And you got mad when I mentioned jealousy

" This is where the chute plane comes into play as a major contributor to eliminating the big bucks."
Again, I thought that this was going to be about more than just chute planes?

" This year 2003 out of 127 public rifle tags there was one buck known of taken that was 30-inches plus. The magazines and books that come out will claim different and show pictures of big bucks taken, but what they don't tell is that the hunter paid big money to harvest it and chute planes were used to locate it."
If you only know of 10-12 people that have chute planes are you telling me that they guide every hunter in every magazine to all of those big deer? What a load of crap and its insulting to the people that dont complain and get out there and hunt their arses off. Furthermore, when did 30 inches constitute a "trophy" buck. I see 30 inch deer every year that I would not kill with somebody elses tag and conversely, I see sub-30" deer that I would give my left testicle to harvest.

?In the beginning God created everything including big bucks, then he created man and they bought chute planes, in the end there was nothing!?
Getting a little bit freaky here. I thought that chute planes were just a minor problem as you recently stated?

"Another thing we can do at a more personal level is not support these activities by purchasing their products. Names will not be mentioned but a lot of them are involved with creating videotapes, books, and magazines."
Again, there is an underlying issue here and its so transparent its not even funny! Seriously, tell us how you really feel about Ry..... OOPS, I forgot, you were not mentioning names. MY BAD!

In conclusion, I feel that your post was about more than the decline of trophy mule deer. If it were just about the decline of the mule deer I would hope that your article would include some major factors these deer have to deal with and some solutions other than just telling us exactly what to write and who to send it to. If you are wondering what I am refering to then go back and reread every post on this thread and you will see some very well thought out problems and solutions. If you have a problems with the wealthy, the landowners, guides and outfitters then you should just say so. I find it transparent and disgusting that you try and stereotype all of these individuals and blame them for the problems facing mule deer today. All of that being said, you stated something in your last post that could not have been more true and that was "everyone" and I repeat "everyone" that has posted on this site in my opinion cares what is happening with our mule deer here in the west or they wouldn't be posting their feelings." That statement could not be more true. In order to get ahead in this uphill battle we need to focus our attention to the areas that will make the most impact first and work our way down the list. Going after 12 guys with chute planes would be a minor problem in my book when you look objectively at the problems facing mule deer today.

Drummond
 
kg,

You have an uncanny ability to argue. The great thing is your points are well made and are valid concerns.

I wish SFW would come out and take note. I know they are reading this. I am not against them, but I am against the way they handle things and what they handle sometimes. Here is a great opportunity for us to come together and work for one goal. They have the communication lines open to those who matter so let us use them. Unfortunately some of them don't believe in limiting the tags for quality and herd health.

Don't go away kg. Maybe, just maybe, this will go some where and we need people like you to state the facts.
 
Kg,
I feel your pain! But there is one bright side to the whole demise of the Paunsaugunt. We seem to, for the most part have it back. What I'm trying yo say is, have you noticed when you go out on the Paunsaugunt now days, you rarely run into anybody else? This one little benefit might be worth leaving it well enough alone. JUST KIDDING! ........... I THINK!
I just have to find one little positive note about the whole mess, Or I might go mad.
Correcting the problems, assuming they can be fixed will take some level headed thinking persons that are skilled in communications. You appear to have a talent for selling your views. I don't agree with your stance 100%, that's ok, rarely does anyone agree on every issue. However, I do think you're skilled enough to offer a wake up call utilizing proper channels. Also, I'm familiar with a member of the Utah Wild Life Board. He has an open mind and the future of Mule Deer looks to be on his agenda. How about attending a R.A.C. meeting and articulating some concerns. Or maybe even just a simple letter to this individual would be a small step in the right direction.
I don't know! Just some thoughts!
 
With some help to round the corners off my personal views (as you mentioned)I am willing to do whatever will help. Like I said, I fought this battle once in the early 90's and lost. I don't know how serious people really are. It is easy to casually type a few things to get a reaction and bat a few things around on a web site. We don't even know who each other are or REALLY stand for. What you are talking about would take research, committment, numbers and several advocates that are willing to compromise and become unified. Statements without data to back them up are only opinions. Most of what I have said is opinion. I know many many many hunters who live in my neck of the woods who feel the same way I do about mule deer in our area. Some are pretty heavy hitters. Some have been to rack meetings, made suggestions etc. etc. only to be belittled and ignored. Some are, and have been actively working to help the situation through magazines, clubs, letters and other means. Some of them are the same people who have been criticized on this very thread. There are so many selfish motives that drive each of us I question if we can ever become unified enough to accomplish what needs to be done. I haven't been as active as I could have been over the past ten years because I could see it was a loosing battle and it made me too mad. Maybe this is a second chance for the DWR to get it right. I would do almost anything to help.
 
The way I see it you guys are right there are many factors affecting mule deer like I said before chute planes would be a non issue if the mule deer herds were up 1 or 200000 in Utah. We still have habitat in most areas to support them and are saving winter ranges from development all over the state. I decided last year not to get a deer tag and will not again this year. If you guys really want to get the attention of the DWR DO NOT PUT IN FOR A TAG this year and tell your family and freinds to do the same. I think those in charge see us as sheep and know we will be there every year to buy that precious deer tag come drought or high water. If you are worried about your kids get them a tag and go with them carry a camera instead of a weapon. It is going to take drastic moves to make a difference in the near future. The DWR is taking steps with habitat and such that will have long term effects (if the can get help from the feds. BLM USFS) If you honestley think a reduction in tags will help suck it up and hold out this year.

Dave
 
This is my first attempt at posting so here goes:
I have been reading this post with great interest. It has taken me a while to read most of it but I still have more to read.


I agree that there are many problems as to why we have a declining mule deer herd everywhere not just in Utah.

The Brunt of the problem must pe put on the state Depts'of fish and wildlife, after all that is what they are being paid to do "Manage our Wildlife".
Tecnology has made us better hunters, anyone can go into the back country with Gps's and not get lost. Now people can 4 wheel in to most anywhere. Governors tags should be eliminated, I'd go for the 10 dollar tag idea.
We give out way too many tags and the deer herds are just wiped out.

I personaly would not mind paying more for resident deer tags or non res.
Limiting tags would be a way to start. I would be all for limiting 4 wheelers and vehicles in some areas, and totally in some others.

We have always driven to a spot and hiked in.

I have seen posts refering to 1 x 2's as being predominant in many areas.
Why don't we put retrictions on most areas to were we can only kill 4 x 4 0r bigger racked deer for a few years to turn the whole state (Utah) not just the trophy areas into trophy areas.
If we let those younger bucks live we will have bigger deer in just a few seasons. More bigger bucks are what we all want isn't it.

The Pauns. and other trophy areas still have the genetics in place for these deer to mature into what we have seen in the past.
We have not killed them all yet but had better do something fast.

Just my 2 cents worth.
 
excaliber

I WOULD AGREE TO THE 4 POINT OR BETTER RULE BUT:

IT'S BEEN TRIED IN THE BOOK CLIFF'S A FEW YEARS BACK,(ACTUALLY 3 POINT OR BETTER)DID IT WORK???

NOT ONLY NO!!!BUT HELL NO!!!

WHY???

TOO MANY NON ETHICAL SO CALLED HUNTERS WAY TO TRIGGER HAPPY TO TAKE THE TIME TO COUNT POINTS!!!

AMAZING HOW MANY TWO POINTS I FOUND OUT THERE THAT ROTTED DUE TO LOWLIFE BASTARDS THAT DON'T DESERVE TO EVEN OWN A GUN!!!

YA,I'M STILL PI$$ED!!!

I'M TELLING YOU IT WON'T WORK,IT SHOULD BUT IT WON'T!!!

TOO BAD THEY COULDN'T OF ISSUED SOME 25,000 DOLLAR FINES AND TOOK SOME VEHICLES AND WEAPONS!!!

WELL,I'VE SAID ENOUGH FOR NOW,HOPEFULLY CHANGES WILL BE MADE SOON TO SAVE WHAT WE HAVE LEFT!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THAT HASN'T FORGOT THE 3 POINT OR BETTER EFFECT!!!
 
Simply close some units altogether for two years and then some more units after that.
On a side note I bet that 295+ incher from Texas was not tracked with a chute plane. lol No sir ree Bob.
As for point restrictions they only work with mandatory check stations and Game wardens counting your rounds before hunting and after in other words they dont work. But all fork horned deer should be protected 1000 dollar fine should be imposed on any forky or spike taken except in over populated units and yes there are over populated units usaually near towns where hunting is not allowed though.
We should buy some muleys from Canada game farms they do farm them up there and turn a chit load of em loose down here in some closed units let em breed with native deer. Tongue in cheek girls so dont get your panties in a wad over that but it makes ya think though dont it.
 
I would say one of the best management practices we have up here is 4 point or better seasons. They do work. We have some units that have had them in place for over 20 years. The majority of the province is under 4 point seasons now and man has there been a turn around in a lot of the areas since they have been in place. It's working for us, can't see why it couldn't work for you guys.

BTW rightwinger, ain't no farmed deer in this province. We have kept that chit out. It's the only way to keep our herds CWD free.
 
BCBOY

THE PROBLEM WE HAVE DOWN HERE WITH THE POINT RESTRICTION IS UNIMAGINABLE UNLESS YOU'VE SEEN THE DAMAGE I'VE SEEN!!!

I'M 100% FOR IT IF IT COULD BE ENFORCED AND IF THERE WERE MAXIMUS FINES FOR BREAKING IT!!!

AND YA,I REALIZE THERE WOULD BE PEOPLE PI$$ED BECAUSE IT WOULD TAKE A COUPLE OF YEARS TO SHOW PROGRESS,BUT IN A FEW YEARS WOULDN'T IT BE NICE TO START SEEING SOME DECENT BUCKS IN OPEN AREA'S OR AM I DREAMING AGAIN???

YA SEE,THERES A DIFFERENT BREED OF HUNTER YOU'VE NEVER BEEN AROUND,THEY SHOOT AT ANYTHING,MOVING OR NOT,THE DAMAGE DONE TOO THE UNIT I'M REFFERING TO WAS UNREAL,YOU'D OF HAD TO SEE IT TO BELIEVE IT!!!

I GUESS I SHOULD OF STATED THE REASON THE POINT RESTRICTION DIDN'T WORK IS BECAUSE A BUNCH OF UN-ETHICAL HUNTERS WOULDN'T LET IT WORK!!!

I CAN TELL YOU THIS:IF SHOOTING TWO POINTS AND SMALLER BUCKS IN A THREE POINT OR BETTER AREA AND LETTING THEM ROTT AIN'T CONSIDERED POACHING,THEN I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE HELL IS???

ALSO,BCBOY,YOU NEED TO MAKE A TRIP DOWN HERE AND HUNT WITH ME OPENING DAY NEXT FALL,I'LL SHOW YOU A LITTLE OF THE B.S. THAT GOES ON,I CAN'T SHOW YOU EVERYTHING IN A DAY BUT I'LL BET I CAN SHOW YOU MORE THAN WHAT YOU WANT TO SEE!!!(AND NO I'M NOT TALKING 30"+ BUCKS EITHER)

AFTER WE MAKE THE RULES WE NEED TO ENFORCE THEM TO THE MAX,NOT MAKE MORE SO PEOPLE CAN BREAK MORE!!!

JUST LIKE THE ATV'S,MAKE THEM OBEY THE RULES AND I'LL QUIT DOING TUNE-UPS,BUT UNTIL THEN???

THE ONLY bobcat THINKING:THERE MUST NOT BE TOO MANY THINKING ABOUT THE FUTURE OR SOME THINGS WOULD OF ALREADY CHANGED!!!
 
Thr antler point restriction will never fly in Utah. Every biologist will tell you it did not work before so it will not work again. Without there support you will never get it past the RACS. May be a spike only restriction would work it works for elk. The hardest part of killing a trophy elk is drawing the tag. Then we could have limited entry mature buck hunts state wide after closing it to anything but spike bucks for 3-4 years. It might even eliminate some inferior genes.
I guess no one likes the idea of voluntarily taking a year or two off from the deer hunt.
 
I'M CALLING B.S. ON THE SPIKE ONLY CRAP!!!

LOOK WHAT THEY'VE DONE WITH THE ELK,COMPLETELY DESTROYED THE FISH LAKE UNIT,IF THIS IS HOW THE UDWR HAD IT PLANNED,WE'VE SEEN ENOUGH!!!

WHEN ALL OF THESE SPIKE ONLY UNITS CAME AROUND,THE HUNTERS WANTING A CHANCE AT A BIGGER BULL FLOCKED TO ANY BULL AREA'S,ONLY A COUPLE OF ANY BULL UNIT'S IN THE STATE,COUNT THE ELK NUMBERS BEFORE,COUNT THEM NOW,NOW WE HAVE A FAIRLY BIG AREA IN PI$$ POOR SHAPE,THANKS TO THE SPIKE ONLY B.S.!!!

I'M GONNA SAY IT ONE MORE TIME:IT MIGHT MAKE YOU MAD BUT YOU CAN'T LET THAT MANY HUNTERS HUNT BIG GAME THAT LONG AND EXPECT THE HERDS TO IMPROVE!!!

IT TAKES ALOT OF YOUNG BUCKS TO EVENTUALLY MAKE A FEW BIG BUCKS,KILLING THE SMALLEST AIN'T THE ANSWER,NO I'M NOT A BIOLOGIST,AND I DON'T THINK YOU GOT TO BE ONE TO SEE THE LIGHT!!!

30plus,I SURE AS HELL HOPE YOU AIN'T BELIEVING EVERYTHING THAT COMES OUT OF A BIOLOGISTS MOUTH,THEY WILL DO WHATEVER IT TAKES TO PROTECT THEIR JOBS,AND YES I KNOW THERE ARE SOME GOOD ONES IN THE FIELD BUT I'VE GOT A QUESTION I NEED YOU TO ANSWER!!!

THE SPORTSMEN THOUGHT THEY HAD THE THE 'DOE SHOOTER' HUNTS STOPPED FOR THIS YEAR,(THE DWR DIDN'T LIKE IT)SO THE BIOLOGISTS GO OUT AND THEY NOTICE THE SAGE BRUSH ISN'T DOING REAL WELL,SO WHAT DO THEY COME UP WITH???NOW THEY DON'T THINK THERE IS ENOUGH SAGE TO SUPPORT OUR DEER HERDS THROUGH THE WINTER,SO THEY ISSUE EMERGENCY DOE TAGS,I AGREE THE SAGE AIN'T DOING SO WELL BUT KILLING DOES AIN'T THE ANSWER,THE DROUGHT HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR SEVERAL YEARS,DOES ANYBODY KNOW OF ANY OF THE HABITAT MONEY GOING INTO SEEDING WINTER RANGES WITH SOMETHING BESIDES SAGE THAT MIGHT GROW ON DRYER YEARS???THE UDWR'S PLAN IS TOO SHOOT THE DOES RATHER THAN LETTING MOTHER NATURE TAKE HER WAY,THIS STATE HAS VERY FEW PLACES WHERE DOES SHOULD BE SHOT!!!HERES MY QUESTION,DON'T YOU THINK MAYBE A FEW OF THE BIOLOGISTS SHOULD OF RECOMENDED SOMETHING TO TRY AND IMPROVE FEED ON THE WINTER RANGES A FEW YEARS BACK OR IS IT EASIER TO JUST ISSUE LATE SEASON TAGS???(THATS WHAT THIS HERD NEEDS IS MORE HUNTING!!!)

ENOUGH SAID!!!

THE ONLY bobcat NOT CONVERTING TO A SPIKE HUNTER,I'LL HANG MY GUN FOR A COUPLE OF YEARS IF I HAVE TO!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-13-03 AT 10:40AM (MST)[p] It's somple in my mind!! (or is my mind simple??.) Anyway, There's only way to bring manageable numbers of big bucks back to areas that once had them is to limit the numbers of hunters hunting them..Allow a healing period...Maybe two years of no hunting in those units chosen..Make sure your getting the results your looking for before reopening those units. Then manage the numbers of bucks taken by limiting the number of tags sold..

The big problem with this theory,....MONEY!!!. The state is going to lose thousands maybe millions of dollars by limitimg the number of tags sold...Are the states willing to take such a loss???. Doesn't look like it!!!. I like the idea of point restrictions BUT for only a spacific period of time (maybe 5 years)then lift the restriction and AGAIN limit the number of tags sold!!!. Again will the states take the lose of revenue???. I don't think so....It's a vicious circle.

ACCOUNTABILITY,

Who is going to be held accountable for finding another way to raise that lost income??. The state...and who do you think the state is accountable to??. Taxpayers. Are taxpayers going to vote for a state legislature that raises their taxes because of lost income do to limiting the number of hunting licenses?...Doubt it...HUNTING is now big business and it brings in billions of dollars annually in the united states just look at Cabelas and their multi-billion dollar monster stores they are building...Thats all because of hunting....It's to late in my opinion..I don't think it's HABITAT, DROUGHT, POACHING, CHUTE PLANES, ATV,S, POINT RESTRICTIONS, TECHNOLOGY, Although all of this plays a part in the problem...Nope it's simple in my mind It's just plain GREED!!!!!!!!!!!!.
 
A point restriction for trophy mule deer in my area would curently not work nor would I support it here is why. There are mostly giant 2 and 3 point bucks doing all the breading around here thanks to most CWMU operators who have been hunting solely for the 170+ bucks for 60 + days straight and passing on all the big 26in forkies and 3 points, if the DRW had any common since the would mandate that all CWMU units must include 50% of there total harvest to be cull/animals that would defiantly help even up this giant unbalancing that I am seeing among out deer herds in my area. As for the other parts of the state with large public land tracks a point restrictions might work! As far as getting our deer #s back up I said it before and I will say it again kill yotes, get the large invading elk herds of there winter range and stop the damm doe hunts until numbers come back up,
 
no doe tags; half the number of buck tags in a draw only for everybody,INCLUDING guides, preference points so people can get drawn every other year or so; and charge double for the tags; and look at some long-term options for controlling predators. Also, the states need to wrap all the fees into one price; that will make it easier on enforcement and hunters. Right now you have to have a conservations tag, a state lands use tag, this tag, that tag, blah blah blah. One tag, one price, so the enforcement people can concentrate on what is important.

This cuts the harvests in half, keeps the funding for the departments and keeps a lid on the guiding/outfitting business. Less tags = less enforcement and unethcial problems.

You do this in any state in the West, and in 5 yrs you will have good age structures in the herds again and they will be healthy, PERIOD. It doesn't take a biology degree to figure this out. There is nothing you can do about habitat in the next five years that will bring the herds back to the glory days.

Stop the killing and things will quickly come back into balance. And, it is not the game depts responsibility to provide recreational outings for me an my family! The health of the herd comes first. I would much rather go hunting with my kids every other year and have a quality outing than go every year in the zoo it is now. And I garuntee that if you have a good hunting experience every other year with your son/daughter, that they will become hunters for life. When you go out hunting as a kid and it sucks every time, you quickly lose interest.

muleguy
 
Money is the obvious question if you are talking about limiting tags. There is no question that some people are willing to pay more than they are now for the tag that provides a chance to kill a big mule deer. A few have posted here on this thread. Like you say, hunting is big business. When demand is up, prices should rise proportionally. When supply is down and demand is up..... I'm sure you get it. That is not how the fish and game manage tag prices; so it is not big business for them, as much as they get accused of it. If it were, they would actually do what successful big business does.

If you had to guess, how much do you think the value (demand) of a trophy mule deer increased over the past 15 years? Exponentially! I know lots of people who'd pay ten times as much as I would just for a chance to hunt what's left of the Pansagaunt. Who gets that money? Landowners. Literally hundreds of thousands of dollars over the past fifteen years to sell something that is mine and yours. I am speaking about the Pansagaunt here, and by mine and yours I mean the deer that are mine and yours for the fish and game to manage for us. (that taxpayer thing) They (we) should have received at least half that money. Instead they (we) chose to turn the whole thing over the the ranchers who graciously accepted the responsibility and proceeded to clean us (the DWR) out of our cash crop while getting wealthy. Greed on the part of the ranchers? That's none of my judgement. But it was damn good business! The fish and game (we) got sorely outsmarted. I want some butts! But there are none to be had. Now, what can be learned:

1) WE (the fish and game) have the ability to grow huge and many mule deer here in Utah. (a good thing)

2) This can be done in various and sundry places most of the time. It can certainly be done on the Pansagaunt. (good again!)

3) People will pay a startling amount of money to hunt said deer. (holy macarel)

4) We have to quit giving it all away. They are ours.

5) Oops! There is alot of private land on the Pansagaunt. We didn't notice this when we agreed with the LOCAL SPORTSMEN who lobbied us twenty-some-odd years ago to close it to hunting.

6) Hey! what if we did the same thing on a unit or two or ten that didn't have so much private land on it and kept the money for ourselves?

7) Let's see, we'd have to really watch those predators and poachers and limit the number of tags on these units so there is a PRODUCT. We'd have to manage the holy be-jeepers out of those valuable little fawns. Does, now does would be our life blood. Might have to just up and shoot those queer-eye-for-the-straight-guy bucks, can't have them diluting our VALUABLE commodity. What's causing them anyway? Might have to enlist the help of lots of concerned locals to help patrol. Might have to treat them better - but maybe not. Might have to tell a rancher or two to go ahead and shoot the deer in their fields. Let them take the heat from the locals for a while. Etc. etc.

We are either helpless and it is each for his own, or we can try to come up with real solutions. The fish and game should be fiscally accountable WHILE providing positive RESULTS. Aren't you at your job? At home? Are there consequences if you are not? Accountability! Consequences! RESULTS?
 
BOBCAT
I guess it all boils down to hunter attitude then. If you guys can't change the majority of the hunter's attitudes, you ain't gonna change the quality of you deer herds. All the whinning and moaning about the trophy quality will be for naught. You'll have to just suck it up and live with it. And I know that doesn't sound like a good option, does it?
The 4 point restrictions have worked great here. Do some 3 points get shot and left to rot? Yes. I have seen a few over the years. But the CO's also realize that mistakes in the field are made and they go pretty easy on you if you call them and are acountable for your mistakes. Those hunters who walk away from the kill are dealt with pretty harshly. Fines up to $25,000 and 6 months in jail are pretty good deterants. It also takes some time to see the benifites of the point restriction. You can't introduce them and then drop them two years later. Are some hunter's pissed off when they are put in place? You bet. Hunter success goes down drastically in a point restriction season. But, I have seen those same hunter's happier than a pig in $hit 4 or 5 years later when they harvest the buck of their dreams.
 
All right, I cant take it anymore. I AM THE CAUSE OF THE DECLINE OF TROPHY BUCKS!!!!

fa4efce7.jpg


This is from my last outing over the winter range while I was lion hunting from my chute plane, pesky damn cats just about had this deer run to death, good thing I came along and saved it from becoming cat food, after all it will look much better on my wall between the white rhino and the bald eagle.

Mike
at235.gif
 
dakotakid

I GUESS I DO CHUTE TUNE-UPS NOW ALSO,ROTFLMFAO!!!

DO YOU THINK I COULD KNOCK THAT BUCK OUT OF THE AIR???

BCBOY

YA,IT'S KINDA SAD TO KNOW THAT PEOPLE AIN'T SMART ENOUGH TO SEE THE LIGHT,BUT I'M TELLING YOU WE ARE IN DEEP $HIT!!!

LIKE I SAID BEFORE,I WISHED 25 YEARS AGO FOR A 4 POINT OR BETTER RESTRICTION,MAYBE,JUST MAYBE BY NOW THINGS WOULD OF LOOKED BETTER,BUT HERES THE HARD PART,GETTING ABOUT 70,000 OF THE 97,000 TO START BEING ETHICAL AND HUNT SMART,I KNOW I'M ASKING FOR WAY MORE THAN I'LL EVER SEE!!!

THERE ARE JUST TOO MANY TRIGGER HAPPY PEOPLE IN THIS STATE,THEY JUST CAN'T RESIST,IT'S KINDA LIKE TELLING A TEENAGER 'DON'T',BUT MOST OF THEM AIN'T TEENAGERS,I GUESS THEY'LL NEVER LEARN???

I DON'T KNOW ALL THE ANSWERS,BUT I DAMN SURE KNOW ALOT OF THE PROBLEMS!!!

I'LL TELL YOU OF A FEW THINGS YOU CAN DO IN CANADA THAT YOU DON'T DO HERE:IF YOU SHOOT A BUCK HERE YOU BUST YOUR BUTT OVER TO IT ASAP BEFORE SEVERAL OTHER HUNTERS CLAIM IT!!!
IF YOU SHOOT A DECENT BUCK HERE,YOU'D BETTER TAKE THE RACK WITH YOU,IF YOU DON'T THERES A GOOD CHANCE WHEN YOU GET BACK WITH YOUR BUDDIES TO HELP GET IT OUT THE RACK OR POSSIBLY THE WHOLE CARCASS WILL BE GONE!!!
I'VE SEEN FIGHTS OVER TWO POINTS!!!
I'VE SEEN PEOPLE GET PI$$ED OVER THEM THINKING THEY OWN THE PUBLIC GROUND!!!
I'VE SEEN PEOPLE GET PI$$ED OVER ATV'S VENTURING INTO THE PRIMITIVE!!!(WHOOPS)
THE LIST GOES ON AND ON AND ON!!!
ENJOY WHAT YOU HAVE WHILE YOU CAN,AND IF THINGS START CHANGING IN A BAD DIRECTION LIKE IT DID HERE,CHANGES NEED TO BE MADE QUICK,DON'T EVER LET THEM MANAGE GAME UP THERE LIKE THEY'VE DONE HERE!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THINKING ABOUT DOING POOP CHUTE TUNE-UPS!!!
 
I read most all the posts on this site. However,I don't usually post much. But I must admit this one has stirred up some emotions I have on this subject. KTC, you mentioned that you hoped that SFW would take up this cause. The sad reality is based on the last couple of their newsletters I have read I was given the impression that our (Utah's) deer herds are making a strong comeback. Please don't take this wrong, I also believe Don and others with SFW have done great things for Utah wildlife. However, I think it is sad and somewhat pathetic that there literature has been spinning how great Utah's deer herd is doing at this time. Obviously from all the posts on this thread, not all is well in Utah. Perhaps to much attention has been placed in other areas at the expense of Utah's muledeer?

I also agree that the DWR must show accountability. Management is piss poor in Utah! Why is it that when I hunt muledeer in Nevada or Colorado I find for the most part a good representation of all age class of bucks, as well as good buck to doe ratios? I believe the common element is that both states limit their tag numbers to a degree that benefits their deer herds. Nevada is the ultimate example of good game management in my opinion. Utah's DWR gives the same old lame excuse of poor habitat, drought, loss of habitat, blah, blah, blah. Have you looked at the limited habitat Nevada has to work with? How is it that Nevada with their limited deer habitat, as well as prolonged drought problems can have such a strong deer herd. Novel concept Utah DWR, so read verrrry slowwly Utah deer managers! Nevada has mandatory hunter survey cards that must be completed within 15 days after the season ends and then they conduct post season deer counts as well as spring deer counts. After all this information is obtained they go and set tag numbers for each unit based on that years current herd status. This helps avoid overhunting in areas that may be struggling. What an amazing concept! I suppose Utah DWR would pity the Nevada fish and game people. This requires some work and effort. Luckily the Utah DWR received some divine guidance that stated 97,000 total deer tags is just right for Utah. That saves a lot of time and effort in micromanaging Utah's deer herd. I mean what sense does setting tag numbers based on the current status of the deer herd make? Since Colorado made the change a couple of years ago their deer herd is starting to rebound as well. I use Colorado as an example to show how if (this is a big if in Utah) Utah would cut back tags it would be reasonable to expect to see our herds start to recover. As has been stated previously there are a lot of factors affecting muledeer herds. I personally believe limiting hunting pressure would have one of the greatest immediate impacts.

I to would like to see someone like SFW take the lead in forcing the DWR to better manage Utah's herds. Having had some personal involvement with the RAC process, etc. it seems to me only someone like SFW has enough political clout to obtain change in the cluster %#@& we call Utah deer management (oxymoron). Or we could continue to count on these genuises to continue to shine with stellar deer management moves in Utah. Thanks for allowing me to share some of my frustrations with the current status of Utah's muledeer management.
 
That was good muleydoc. You state valid points and have good arguments.

I called on SFW a few posts back and am watching this carefully hoping for some replies. I will continue to wait.

I don't know the answers, but your example of Nevada is a good one. They claim the drought is affecting them and the tag numbers reflect this. They manage from year to year given the circumstances they are dealt. What is up with this 97000 number. I cannot figure it out. They stand by this like it is a word from God. Certainly SOMETHING has changed for the good or bad since 1994, but we remain at 97000.

However, those who care about the deer in Utah will continue to wait and hope something will happen. If there was something I could do I would.
 
ONE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN UTAH AND NEVADA!!!

WHEN THEY (NEVADA) FORE SEE'S A PROBLEM WITH THE HERD OR HERDS THEY ACT PROMPTLY,SOMETHING UTAH HAS NEVER DONE!!!

YA,I KNOW NEVADA AIN'T KNOWN FOR BIG NUMBERS OF DEER,BUT I'LL GUARANTEE YOU THEY HAVE MORE BIG BUCKS LEFT THAN UTAH BY FAR!!!

WHY???

IT'S CALLED MANAGEMENT FOR BIG GAME,NOT MANAGEMENT FOR MONEY!!!

SOME WILL DISAGREE,I DON'T CARE,SOMETIMES THE FACTS HURT!!!

THIS IS PROBABLY GONNA GET NUKED,OH WELL,JUST SOME MORE TRUTH!!!

THE ONLY bobcat RECOMENDING MAJOR CHANGES,BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE!!!
 
I haven't taken the time to read every post here so I may be repeating someone elses idea.
How about designating the known areas for producing trophy bucks,cutting the tags and raising the cost of the "Trophy Tags"
Someone is going to have to sacrafice something if we can expect to see any dramatic changes.
YOU CAN"T EAT YOUR CAKE AND HAVE IT TOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
I think the issues facing the Pauns deer herd can be solved with a deeper cut in tags across the board, not just out of the sportsmen's pool. Problem is , the way tags are set on this particlar deer herd involves 3 different entities . The public tags are easily cut. The UDWR still has the control to manage the public tags. They have cut them in half over the last two years. I'm not sure the UDWR has any power to cut tag numbers on a CWMU. I've never heard of them doing it. Maybe somebody on here that's familiar with the program can explain how tag numbers on a CWMU are set. Same goes for the landowner association. My understanding is thier given tags based on how much land they have. If I understand the program if they have enough land they get the tag regardless of how many deer are left. It may not be all the UDWR's fault. It could go back to the cowboy caucus on capitol hill(SLC). I dont know? The way I see it is, your going to have to present a reasonable solution to benifit all parties involved. Its hard to accept from a average sportsman's point of view but its reality. The Pauns is big money for a few landowners and I doubt it can just be taken back. Ok. Here's a solution I believe could work . This solution would benifit both the private landowners and the sportsmen in the long run. I've metioned this plan to people with influence and have been told it would never fly with the general public. Please read it clear thru and think about it before you react. The big money issues are not going away on the Paunsaugunt. If it continues as is, it will never recover. Its going to take sacrifice from hunters who really care. This is really outside the box! Think about it before you dismiss it. Step 1: issue 0 (ya zero) public tags on the unit for 5 years. Cut the private tags in half for the same period. Allow no consevation or auction tags on the unit. This is a deer herd in trouble and in my opinion the buck saved is more valuable than the money raised.If overall herd numbers out grow the range during this period manage it with conservative doe tags and maybe a youth cull hunt( closly supervised). A biologist will tell you ( wether you agree or not) that if there is limited feed you can either feed the bucks or feed the doe. Its easier to keep overall numbers at objective with doe tags, If the objectives are based on accurate deer counts and not on panic or gut feeling. Step 2: After 5 years open the unit back up to the public with permits set at conservative numbers. Permit numbers based on sound management geared towards older age class bucks. Leave the private tags cut in half of the current numbers. If the landowners agree they will always have that set number of tags. It wouldnt be enough tags to over harvest the bulk of the mature bucks out of the herd. If numbers fall from objectives the public tags would be trimmed. This solution should appeal to both the landowner and the sportsmen. In 5 years the sportsmen will have a premium limited entry unit worth drawing. He will also have the benifit of just having an area to just watch these amazing animals on the hoof any time he likes. The landowner will immediatly benifit. with the private tags as the only option on the unit I believe thier value will raise. As the years go by, I honestly believe thier value will offset any loss of revenue by cutting permit numbers in half. It will also benefit The CWMU and the landowner association by extending the life of thier business. As things stand currently the private tags will have little value in a few years.This plan will only work if the UDWR practices sound biology with thier deer count and range evaluation. The area has a new biologist and I believe he truly cares, if they dont tie his hands. Wouldnt it be neet to see the herd restored to its fame. If the experiment worked maybe it could be used as a model for the whole state. Anyone think it will work?
 
Instead of arguing with each other about the same thing each day....... Why don't you go to DOW meetings together in your state and let them hear your thoughts?
Many of you argue which thing effects deer population more, when many of you have good points. Why not pool your thought's and work together to change things?
Arguing does not gain anything in my opinion if you do not take it to a source that can act on the ideas.
Just my opinion.
Best,
Jerry
 
bobcat-Are you against any and all atvs? Jeeps can go just about anywhere that atvs go, why not hate them too? Give it up, atv are going to be a regular sighting in the woods anymore, and the laws are getting stiffer on their use, and by the way, if you "tune up" someones atv, you have just committed a bigger offense than them using it offroad, and I would hope you get caught doing "tune ups".
 
Seems to me most everbody on this post is an authority on the demise of mule deer. My question is this: Does the general hunting public have a better pulse on this herd than the local biologist and outfitters and guides? I have NOT read all the posts but has their been any comments from biologist, guides, and landowners about this situation? Just curious. Rick
 
Asking any guide and/or landowner is like asking Kobe or his accuser what happened that nite. They are only going to tell you what benefits THEM, therefore all credability is very very questionable.
 
udderdelite

YES I AM AGAINST ALL ATV'S ON THE PRIMITIVE AND CLOSED AREA'S!!!

NO,I'M NOT AGAINST THEM BEING IN LEAGAL AREA'S!!!

BUT SINCE THE LAWBREAKERS CAN'T KEEP THEM OUT OF THE PRIMITIVE,THIS MAKES OTHER LAWS GET BROKE,NO,TWO WRONGS DON'T MAKE IT RIGHT,BUT IF YOU'VE SEEN THE DAMAGE DONE WITH THEM I HAVE,MAYBE,JUST MAYBE YOU'D WAKE THE HELL UP AND THINK,HAVE YOU EVER THOUGHT ABOUT IT JUST A LITTLE???HAVE YOU GOT KIDS THAT MIGHT WANNA SEE IT BEFORE IT'S DESTROYED???

THERES PLACES FOR THEM,THE PRIMITIVE AIN'T ONE OF THEM!!!

I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO REPEAT THIS,YOU GOT A BAD MEMORY???

YOU GET MAD WHEN A TUNE-UP IS MENTIONED,ARE YOU ONE OF THESE ATV RIDERS THAT DON'T HAVE RESPECT FOR ANYTHING???

IT'S EASY,DON'T BREAK THE RULES AND YOU WON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT THE TUNE-UP!!!

RIDE THEM WHERE ITS LEAGAL AND YOU AIN'T GOT NOTHING TOO WORRY ABOUT,GET THE PICTURE???

I HAVEN'T HEARD FROM YOU IN A WHILE,YOU JUST TRYING TO STIR MORE $HIT OR WHAT???

I CAN TELL YOUR A LITTLE LEARY OF THE TUNE-UP,REMEMBER THERE ARE SEVERAL TUNE-UP SPECIALISTS OUT THERE,I'M JUST ONE OF THE FEW THAT WILL TELL YOU RIGHT TO YOUR FACE I'LL DO ONE IF I HAVE TOO!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THINKING:SOME OF THESE JOKERS SURE FORGET FAST!!!
 
I have looked at some numbers so I can help put this into perspective. I am going to compare mule deer in Utah to desert bighorn sheep. They are managed in huge contrast.

According to the UDWR website, Utah has about 310,000 mule deer. This is about 115,000 below objective. The buck to doe ratio is better than 15 bucks to 100 does. Utah issues 97,000 general season permits plus LE and doe hunts.

According to the same website, Utah has 3000 desert bighorn sheep. They are growing in numbers and last year, according to the article, one was well into the B&C record books. 50 sheep tags are drawn. Some of these are Rocky Mountain.

If my math is correct, 15% of the deer population would be 46,500 mule deer bucks in Utah. This is over 100% more tags than buck deer.

The sheep are carefully managed to protect their well being. Lets use the same 15% number for rams to ewes. I would dare say it is higher, but I will be conservative. 15% of 3000 animals would be 450 rams. They draw 50. They draw tags for 11% of the total ram population.

This type of mismanagement is upsetting. Am I missing something? Are mule deer less important? I hope not. Once again we go for 97,000 when we are in a drought and 115,000 animals under objective. What gives?
 
Great points about the sheep. Those are the kind of arguments that have some validity. I would have thought a biologist or someone would have shown up by now too. Sounds like Fin little is a little more realistic than I about what would actually "fly" (sorry 30incher) on the Pansagaunt as far as management. I think you're on the right track. I myself still have to scream bloody murder if you don't cut tags equally across the board. It would be better for the deer than what we've had though. In the end it will have to be a compromise as you have suggested. I just think we've given the ranchers enough. Most of the decent deer left will come from the forrest for a while now anyway. They are too easy to kill year after year on the bench and around the fields in September and you can only kill them once. I certainly agree about the arguing. This issue can only be tackled successfully by a unified group with more concern for the herd than individual interests. Not that the debate hasn't led to some very good thinking and points made. Some good ones I have honestly never thought of.
 
Maybe I did not make it clear but I was triing to be sarcastic about the spike only.
On the sheep/deer post the sad fact is for 2003 the DWR only counted 280000 deer statewide and they expect it to be 20000 lower in the spring 2004 counts I got this answer from the biologist in front of the big game board during question and answer period. When Utah cut the tags to 97000 it was from public pressure put on poloticians not the DWR. My dad and some others met with the Gov. days before SFWs rally at the capital in 94 and no one really knows where the # came from at least that I have heard those that met with Gov. Levitt asked for 50000.
Bobcat I completly agree on the kill the does before they have a chance at a bad winter. 500 does in the currant creek drainage is about 200 head more than last fall. I spent a lot of time there this fall and saw 30 to 40 head total. So the sagebrush should winter well.
I still do not beleive just cutting tags will do much good. The ranges I watch in the winter have less then half the deer they had five years ago (as I see it) without one new house road cabin or other human encroachment. I can show you 3 bucks that will go over180" (it was 4 but 1 got poached from a pickup maybe we should outlaw them with atvs and chute planes) but the overall herd #s are gone so maybe there is a bit something with this habitat, drought predator theory of the biologists. I am sure all the pressure we put on them does not help.
 
Well said and to the point, Jerry. Semper Fi.

Be part of the solution, don't sit there and complain and "hope" someone else will do it. We are ALL that "someone else" if we don't take action, nobody will. So be proactive......make some noise to the folks who need to hear it in your state, and the strongest way to do it is as a group.
 
In Alaska you are allowed to take a Brown or GrizzlyBear, only once every four years(except in two units).
Would everyone be able to live with a regulation like that on Trophy Muleys?
It would take a little pressure off the bucks and allow a better chance of drawing (whatever that is?) a tag!
If you cut back on tags in some units,hiked the price for a "Trophy Tag" and instituted a once every four year restriction things would have to improve!
But again a sacrafice would have to be made!
 
Absolutely Harry, sacrafice will have to be made. It goes back to the supply and demand thing.

30, I am sure your numbers better reflect mine. I failed to mention these deer numbers came from a published report dated August 2002.

Giving out so many tags for so few animals is distubing. I would bet that no other big game animal takes the heat the deer do. I just used the sheep for an example. You could do the same with moose, goats, buffalo, trophy elk. I would be willing to bet the general elk is in better proportion than the deer. But, I do not know without looking into it.

The wait goes on......
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-15-03 AT 11:34AM (MST)[p]Unification is the answer. These wildlife groups apparently do not care enough to respond. I would be glad to be part of a group that cares that includes everyone that has posted. I think there are some really good ideas from everyone including the one's I have clashed with that need to be addressed and brought before our Fish and Game departments as well as our legislators. There have been alot of comments about tag numbers. Obviously, 97,000 tags given out every year in Utah is not the answer. How can we continue to give out that many turning everyone loose and properly manage our mule deer? I agree that each unit needs to be managed separately in order to manage properly. What's to stop everyone in one particular region from going to the same area to hunt? I know that would never happen but I'm just trying to make a point. There are no surveys that I have ever been sent as far as the general hunt is concerned so how can they know what hunter harvest is? They don't have a clue their just guessing! As far as surveys, this really gripes me too, when I drew a Paunsagunt any weapon tag this year they sent me the survey postmarked the last day of the season I hunted asking me for a tooth sample in order to determine age class of the deer. If they did this with everyone how many tooth samples are they going to get back? Wouldn't it make more sense to inform hunters before the hunt starts that they need a tooth sample? They just wasted $1.80 on postage for 127 rifle hunters for nothing! This is an example of how our fish and game is managing our deer herds! This kind of management practice needs to stop! Utah even though there has been drought has some of the best mule deer habitat in the West. Habitat is the excuse always used by the fish and game and is their major scapegoat for their bad management practices. I have also wondered why there has been only one predominantly trophy unit in the state (Paunsagunt) over the years. Wouldn't it make more sense to create some more or manage the general areas for more of a mature buck population? Wouldn't that take some pressure off of the Paunsagunt? Isn't every unit in the state have the capability of growing good bucks if tags were cut and deer could mature? I agree with alot of the points that have been made including cutting tags and raising fees to compensate the fish and game. You know they are worried about their money so doesn't that solve it? Cut the tags in half and double the price or cut the tags by 2/3's and triple the price. Back to the chute plane issue in which I have said all along it is not an issue on the general areas yet. They are an increasing problem though on the Paunsagunt and strip areas. Yes 12 planes focused in on 1 particular unit can be a problem! That is all I'm trying to say and enough with that. Somehow we need to all unify together and pool our thoughts into what is going to have the most effect on our mule deer right now. From the posts it seems like tag numbers is the #1 issue that needs to be addressed immediately! And I agree with alot of the other ideas that have been posted. Let's just get together because one voice is just pissing in the wind and a number of voices that unify can make a difference!
 
30,

Your last post reminds me of a story. This happened to me several years ago. I was interested in hunting deer in Wyoming. I started to research this and try to find some options for a good quality hunt. One of the things I did was to call a biologist that worked at the Wyoming fish and game. When I called and talked to this guy I expressed my desire to hunt a quality area in Wyoming. He chuckled at my question and asked where I was from. I told him Utah. He said "Look, all of our areas are good. Pick a spot you want to hunt and go. All of our areas in Wyoming are managed to produce quality bucks. We don't have one of those Paunsagaunt things like you guys have in Utah."

Something to think about.
 
Udder,

That type of thinking is another factor in the decline of trophy bucks. Guides and Outfitters are not the "anti-Christ" as you would have people believe. It goes back to the leaky pipe analogy, fix the major problems first and work your way down the list. If you were a landowner and you received landowner permits from the state would you not sell them? If you were a guide or outfitter would you not book a hunter that had DRAWN a tag and was going to hunt anyway? A lot of things need to get fixed before you start the Landowners, Guides and Outfitters are the root of all evil complaint.

Drummond
 
Nobody here should feel sorry for the guides/outfitters.....they are a big part of the problem, just like us "do it yourself hunters". It is an equal opportunity problem. Landowners have every right to lease their ground out or guide off of it. No problem, any solution that compromises landowner rights is not acceptable. But, the guiding and outfitting industry has very good lobbyists working for them, and they will do their best to not have tag numbers decreased. Less tags = less guiding revenue. These guys are already way more organized than the average sportsman. They will do everything in their power to stop the reduction of tags. Or, they will do everything in their power to somehow get "gauarenteed" tags or something like that.

You really have to get off the fence on this one....I have no idea who are the peope who guide on this site and who are the ones that just love to hunt themselves, but by people's responses, it starts to become pretty clear. There is nothing wrong with guides and there is nothing wrong with using their services, it is a free country, but their objectives are completely different than regular sportsman. We might all share the love of hunting, but when this angry mob of sportsmen start calling their legislators, you better bet that the outfitting lobbyist will not be far behind. Nothing evil about guides, but don't try and tell me that your objectives are the same as mine; you are out to earn a living or enhance your living. I am out there hunting for a whole different reason.

muleyguy
 
Hell no, nobody should feel sorry for guides and outfitters but its rediculous to say that they are all the same. Outfitting are no different than any other profession, there are good ones and there are bad ones. It seems like most of the ones I have been associated with the past few years suck ass but thats beside the point and also the reason I started to do my own thing.
What kills me on this whole post though is phrases like the one you just used:
"but their objectives are completely different than regular sportsman"
Its a stereotype and it drives me nuts. I run hunts on private land in Mexico and as much as I hate the word I guess that makes me an outfitter and I damn sure dont want to be classified as someone thats a money grubbin bastard that just wants to make a quick buck. Hell, I have a real job and the only reason I run the hunts in Sonora is because I cant afford to go on a hunt like that myself so instead of bitching about the rising cost of hunting I go down and run a few hunts to be able to hunt these huge deer. If you knew how much money I actually made on these hunts you would call me an idiot for even doing it. My point is that I am not the only guy out there that does this.
This statement is absurd:
"don't try and tell me that your objectives are the same as mine; you are out to earn a living or enhance your living. I am out there hunting for a whole different reason."
How in the world do you know why I hunt? You dont! If you ask anyone that has ever hunted with me I am confident that they would all tell you the same thing and it would have nothing to do about money! Thats the kind of stereotype that sets us back from the beginning, if we fight amongst ourselves how can we ever expect to get something accomplished at a higher level. Again, start at the top with the issues that will make the most impact first and work our way down. Please help me understand why this is such a difficult concept to comprehend.

Drummond
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-15-03 AT 09:58PM (MST)[p]Let's hear a comment from the SFW. Are they really out there? Are they concerned? Apparently not because they can't even make a comment. By the way I haven't changed my opinion about the chute planes. Just like conch stated above, "It's time to ground the air attack!"
 
Okay, if I wanted to get rid of big bucks in Utah this is what I would do. Kill a bunch of the does, give out a lot of buck tags to boot, and to take the cream off the top of the gene pool I would kill as many of the trophy bucks, with the help of an amazing new tool, chute planes. Not to forget, don't allow many lions to be killed. That would just about do it!!

I am from Colorado and I think that some of the oldtimers really have their finger on the big buck problem. This isn't rocket science, but you can't tell the Utah DOW that I guess. Anyway, if any of you had a chance to talk with Ted Riggs before he passed on he would tell and so would my Grandfather. They spent maybe 1000% more time out there than a lot of us. What do you think Ted Riggs would tell you?? If you don't know then I am not going to tell you. Can you imagine the big bucks that were around in those days!!

The hunting isn't that great in Colorado either. Management could be a lot better in both states. I get tired of hearing the DOW trot out the same excuse about habitat being destroyed. When your talking about areas over 600 square miles without a few acres being disturbed what is the problem?? I don't get it. There is more feed now then at any time in history, heck there isn't any more sheep on the range, they are all gone. When we had a lot of sheep we had a lot of big bucks...

There are answers, but the answers aren't popular. We will never again return to even 25% of the deer population/big bucks that was experienced in the 50s/60s, never going to happen, in any state. I would be thrilled with 10% in my favorite Colorado hunting places, completely satisfied. I remember as a kid in the late 60s counting driving down the and counting over 1000 deer in 10-15 minutes driving down the highway. I couldn't even count them fast enough. One field had just under 1000. People today don't even know what a lot of deer are.

The best place to find a big buck in Colorado is the Rocky Mtn. Arsenal. Lets have the so-called evolution experts explain to us how the Muley's are taking over from the Whitetails inside the arsenal!!! Nice experiment that completely contradicts their conjectures.

The ones who cannot remember or do not know what is was like to hunt in the 50s/60s and 70s are the lucky ones.

Pete

PS - I meant to post this on the 1st post, sorry.
 
I do not know what part of CO you are from, but MY guess would be that you don't see 1000 deer because of the 300 cookie cutter houses. I know there are numerous other problems, but I have seen agricultural fields in April turn into Drakes Landing by the fall. And the Californians get mad when half-a-billion canada geese destroy their lawns. Too many people, too many tags, deer with no place to go but downhill. It is happening throughout the west, not just CO, UT, AZ, or NM. Biologist today aren't just faced with trying to figure out biological carrying capacities for mule deer. Social carrying capacity is what they face and the sad fact is there are a lot of polotics clouding what is right for the animals. Has anybody ever thought about having nonconsumptive users help pay for Mule deer management? Many like to see the deer in the fields, or in the mountains when they go to the lake, but in reality they have not contributed a dime to wildlife funds to ensure their kids will be able to do the same. Why not propose a statewide tax that would go to the G&F to help manage deer. If you live and work in a state you need to help pay for the wildlife. After all, the wildlife belongs to each citizen of that given state. Correct me if I am wrong, but don't you usually have to pay for things that are yours? Maybe we should declare Mule Deer underpriviledged minorites and give them Medicaid, and habitat food stamps!
AS for outfitters and their motives, it was stated above that there are good ones and bad ones. Just like any other business. As for Drummond and his motives as a guide, let me just tell you a few things. Drum is a first rate person that is VERY passionate about what he does in life. If he is not talking about his family and friends, he is talking big mule deer. He knows more about mule deer than many biologists could learn in a dozen lifetimes. He got that way because he is always wanting to find and watch big muleys. He like many on MM is just as happy when someone else kills a big deer, and not him. He is not a kill 'em all kind of person, and that is reflected in his management of leased lands. Does 2 mature bucks being harvested from over 100 sections sound like a greedy or selfish guide? I know it is not, Drum just wants to allow more bucks to reach their full potential before they are even considered being harvested.
Do we have all the answers? NO!! But there are a large group of people here that share a common passion. Why not join together and give our input to our G&F departments. They are public servants managing our wildlife. Let them know that this portion of the public wants to help, and have ideas about how to.
Josh
 
30",

I would like to hear from SFW too. I have asked and asked for their point of view. Nobody is talking though. Hell, Fishon already knows the answers. He has already said in another thread he doesn't want reduction in tags. This would affect HIS ability to go every year. I took a free copy of the Sportsman's Voice yesterday and thumbed through it to see if I was missing something. They are doing a great job, just ask them. I had better be careful what I say. I might get taken "outside."

When is Utah going to distribute tags in porportion with the buck numbers?

It is funny. Some 14,000 tags in my region for deer. You can hunt on any given morning and see 10-20 deer. 5 goat tags and you will see 50-100 of them. Somebody at the UDWR failed math.

Still waiting........
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-16-03 AT 09:35AM (MST)[p]ktc,
I also remember when I was a kid and seeing those kind of numbers on the winter range. Who are they trying to kid when they say the numbers are still there? My father would take us out to an area and we counted 300+ deer on the side hill during the winter months. Now on that same side hill with the same HABITAT and I repeat the same HABITAT that has never been disturbed not one single deer! Obviously, there management for quantity isn't doing anything either. 97,000 tags isn't managing for quantity it's managing for nothing left. I remember some years back when the fish and game come up with these RACS and said they would listen to the public and change their management strategies. That's BS if you've ever attended one of those meetings. Their mind is made up long before those meetings. That's also about the time that sfw came about preaching habitat. It's been about 10 years now and do you see any improvement NOT!!!! It takes about 5 years according to the fish and game for a buck to mature do you see any improvement. Bottom line as long as there are 97,000 tags we're never going to see any improvement either. Utah has plenty of habitat to support the deer but money is more important in their management plan. Habitat, habitat, habitat, how long are we going to be snowballed by this excuse. Southern Utah including the Paunsagunt has plenty of habitat for wintering deer and most of the development has taken place in the desert of St. George where there are very few conflicts. c'mon let's hear something from sfw or are they too busy flying their chute planes while everyone else is focusing on the habitat!
 
I don't think a reduction in tags is necessary, I'm quit certain that we can still keep the amount of tags allocated to us and still have our #s increase but we really need to focus on our fawn crops that is the key. Herd #s will never go up if we cant bring up the survival rate in my area alone I we loose at least 70% of our fawn crop per year and I wound not be surprised it the rest of the state is the same! I know this because I am in the outdoors almost every day of my life and I can see what's happing, take a look for yourself. Go out during the summer and take a look at the excellent fawn crop we have each year 2 does per fawn is very common then take a look at how many are left buy hunting season then if you really want to see a difference go out in march and youwill see what I am talking about
 
You must live in the Northern part of Utah where you have some winter kill going on. In the Southern part there is practically no winter kill but we do have predators. The Southern part has a better survival rate I think. Where did you come up with 70%? Are you sure it's not more like 50% or 25%. Fawns have been dying every winter, by predators, and because of drought ever since deer have existed and will continue to do so. It's part of the cycle. The only way to manage properly is to conduct surveys and issue tags according to the current numbers and situation. 97,000 tags every year through drought times without reduction or change is not good. Again, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out. I haven't noticed any change in the amounts of orange in the hills for 20 years, Have you? It's still like a war zone! SFW are happy though that's all that matters, because they can still fly their chute planes while everyone else is concentrating on the HABITAT!!!!! It's obvious that the wool has been pulled over alot of people's eyes!
 
God Almighty! Are you still hung up on chute planes after reading all of these posts? My God man, the only person here that has wool pulled over their eyes is you! Seriously, go back and read these posts, they make some great points. Twelve friggin chute planes is not the demise of trophy bucks! Its evident to me that your concern is not with the trophy bucks, its with the owners and operators of these chute planes. If it were truley about the deer you would be objective and open minded when it came to the solutions but your inability to reason has left you continuing this witch hunt. People like you are so damn frustrating.

Drummond
 
HS,
I don't think there is any reasoning with a fellow like this. Chute planes are the worst thing to ever happen to all mankind, worse than Saddam, worse than Osama, hell worse than the Anti-Christ. LMAO!
And I know, I know, this ain't no joking matter.
 
Unfortunately, predator control is a long-term problem that isn't going away. There simply isn't any quick and easy solution. The game dept's will say; "if we improve the habitat, then the deer will be able to stand the predators better". That is their stock answer because they know that it is impossible in todays world to do any large scale predator control. The only thing we can change in the short run to have an immediate impact on deer, is to stop harvesting so many of them.

As far as the guides, in my previous post I made it abundantly clear that I have no problem with them. I am not claiming that they are the source of all evil. BUT, like I said, when the angry mob of sportsmen from MM marches down to the state capital, the very first roadblock they are going to run into are the guiding/outifitting lobbyists. I will take everybody's word here that huntsonora is an ethical, great guy, that is truly concerned about mule deer. BUT, you can't solve a problem unless you know who will be fighting you. And the guiding/outfitting lobbyists will be fighting any reduction in tags. You can't ignore the 800 pound elephant in the corner!!! While huntsonora might guide for his own personal reasons, the guiding industry and landowners, IN GENERAL, are out to enhance their livings or to make a living. Once again, NOTHING WRONG with that. BUT, their objectives are not the SAME. When you guide so you can hunt in Mexico and on private ranches, that is a form of "getting paid"!!! I work, so I can get money, so I can go out and buy things I enjoy, same concept. Reducing tags numbers is very, very, very unpopular, even amongst regular sportsmen. All kinds of people are going to pop out of the woodwork to fight tag reductions, if you can't identify who those people are or why they are doing it, you have already lost.........huntsonora made a very good point in one of his first posts, he said something like cut the tags in half and double the price. I will 100% agree with him on this. But, I am afraid that there is going to be massive resistance to this, not only in the guiding circles, but also the regular sportsmen circles. This post is not a rant against guides, but you have to accept the fact that it is about the MONEY as huntsonora said in earlier post. Making money does not factor into the equation for the normal sportsmen, but it most certainly does for the game dept's and the guides and outfitters. It is about the money, follow the money, and you will find the people who will fight you on tag reductions.

muleguy
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-16-03 AT 10:40AM (MST)[p]Again, your a guide and for your information 12 planes or more will have an affect if concentrated on ONE UNIT or AREA!!!!!! What's so hard to understand about that!!!!!!! Your not in the area I'm talking about so how do you KNOW!!!!! You are just friends with the culprits that fly them as stated above. And I have and do agree with other suggestions about the general areas but if you read my posts I'm talking about certain areas not everywhere!! Here's a question, What can we as humans actually control? Surely we can't control the weather or drought conditions and how many are going to go out and give the dying fawns a bottle. That's not going to happen! But we can control limitations on technology, tag numbers, ehtics, and on and on. Give me a break. Don't try to change my mind on the chute plane issue because it's not going to change. Your a guide and you're set in your ways too. I have been open minded as far as other ideas to bring back our general area hunting. Your the one that needs to go back and read the posts!! Again SFW is really happy with what's going on because they have lot's of money,tags,and able to fly their chute planes while everyone else is looking at the HABITAT!! Let's hear from SFW!
 
muleyguy,
Good post. I'll 100% back the idea of cutting the tags in half and doubling the price also as I stated in a previous post. Thanks for your posts you have made some good points. The guides and the landowners also need to sacrafice by cutting their tags in half also.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-16-03 AT 11:45AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Dec-16-03 AT 11:43?AM (MST)

30incher I just received my first issue of Muley crazy mag. In the first page of this magazine even Ryan hatch who I would regard as a southern Utah mule deer expert states that the southwest part of the state experienced a 30% fawn survival rate. And just for the record we have not had any significant winter around here since 1992-1993 and I would also bet the winters since have taken around 15% of our fawn crop, and mule deer are just like any other heard animal they survive better in #s more eyes and ears to locate approaching danger. In my opinion the first and foremost issue facing our mule deer is the survival of our fawns just how many potential trophy mule deer never make it past there first year! And yes I know that is not the only issue facing our mule deer but it is far more important then cute planes. 30incher I know care you deeply about our mule deer herds just as much as anyone else but I think your #1 focus needs to be something other then the chute planes & cutting tags! no punt intended
 
Any ideas on how we can save some of those fawns? It seems to me that the rate would be very hard to control because of the drought and weather. If we continue to give out 97,000 tags then how are we going to increase fawn survival because we definately can't control the weather. Any ideas? Besides cutting and thinning trees and pray for rain and snow.
 
Chute planes make it too easy? Isn't this the only real rationale being put forth here?

I agree - but I would sure like one. Then I would like the DWR to quickly assess the impact they are making on the herd and regulate them accordingly. Or have they already?

Next question: If being too easy is a valid rationale for change, how hard has it been to drive up to a herd of velvet bucks in SEPTEMBER, pick out the BEST ONE, and blast it with a high powered rifle? It is not even hunting. I think it has been easier than shooting them RIGHT OUT OF THE PLANE. Oops!

I would like you to compare the impact this has had over the past fifteen years to that of chute planes. If my mental math is correct there is NO COMPARISON. About forty of the best bucks on the unit every year to very few. I don't mind the tags that are hunted during regular hunt dates but these CWMU deer are killed before anyone that drew a tag for the unit even gets a chance at them!

I do not mean the impact wouldn't be comparable over the next fifteen if both went unREGULATED. I agree that as more people buy these planes regulations need to be looked at more closely. The point in both cases is have some vision and MANAGE to PREVENT these catastrophes rather than do an autopsy to determine the damage.

Accountability. Management. Results? Please!
 
Here is another idea that hasn't been brought up. How many deer are killed on our highways every year during annual migration times. I would say Alot!!! Wouldn't it make sense to put some of the money these organizations are getting into establish taller fences and better deer crossings in highly travelled areas. Just a thought.
 
Not buying it Sonora, that you have a REAL job, real jobs don't allow thier employees, 2-4 hours a day to surf & post on MM, same goes for you other, "Frequent Flyers"(of chute planes)& MM
regardless, its sure fun to read all the crap everyone can come up with durring thier REAL jobs ;-(
 
Great Idea, I have seen a lot of yearlings hear in montana killed on the highway, and a few nice bucks! Here is my take on the issue, every year the last weekend of montana's general season we have an infestation of people who just goe out the day after thanksgiving, they shoot the first thing with horns they find. I don't know how many guys I have talked to that say "ya I shot a two point the last week end just to fill my tag" It honestly pisses me off, I understand filling the freezer but take a doe, a whitetail doe can be shot with an over the counter tag. The fish and game also gives plenty of b tags for muley does. I took my elk in to get proccessed the last day of the general season and, my wife was almost sick!! There were none trucks in front of us and about 6 behind us when we pulled in and there was one four point one! The rest were just dinks!!! I think people need to be a little more conservation minded, here in this state, this year I didn't even shoot a deer because I never found one that I thought was a taker!!
 
huntsonora I am a landowner, matter of fact my family owns over 3 sections. IF we did receive landowner tags, we wouldnt need or want to sell them, we would use them ourselves. Our business makes us enough money we wouldnt need income from a couple tags.
How is saying guides and outfitters are the anti-christ as YOU put it not me, the demise of mule deer as we know it?
If it is not the case anyway then why is the majority consensus here that the outfitting and guides lobbyists would throw a big fit if sportsmen want to reduce tags????? Because of the almighty DOLLAR$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

As far as the land in eastern NM, the biggest portion is state land that is lesed by the people you are dealing with. I am actually going with 4-5 more guys in Jan. with bows in hand, so if only 2 deer are being "managed", its going to be hard to do when every Tom, ##### and Harry hunts there too. If they are telling you they own 100 sections they are mistaken, that would make them the 2nd largest land owner in NM behind Vermejo Park/Turner Enterprises. They just want people to think that to keep everyone from hunting PUBLIC LAND!
 
Udder,

This is from your previous post:
"Asking any guide and/or landowner is like asking Kobe or his accuser what happened that nite. They are only going to tell you what benefits THEM, therefore all credability is very very questionable."

Last post:
"huntsonora I am a landowner, matter of fact my family owns over 3 sections. IF we did receive landowner tags, we wouldnt need or want to sell them, we would use them ourselves. Our business makes us enough money we wouldnt need income from a couple tags."

Thanks for clarifying my point. Not every landowner, guide and outfitter is out for the almighty dollar.

Drummond
 
Oh, FYI, this is a list of the 40 largest landowners in NM but was dated 1997. As you know the folks you are refering too did not start their major aquisitions until fairly recently.
There is also a zero tolerance policy on trespassers and poachers so please let your friends know as I would hate to have to prosecute them. Good luck on the public ground and I hope you guys kill some big, older age class deer.


1. Henry Singleton, Beverly Hills CA, 1,200,000 acres
2. R.E. (Ted) Turner, Roswell GA, 1,150,000 acres
3. Lee family, San Mateo NM, 300,000 acres
4. Lane family, Solano NM, Lake Forest IL, elsewhere, 290,000 acres
5. Bidegain family, Tucumcari NM, 180,000 acres
6. King family, Stanley NM, 170,000 acres
7. Huning family, Los Lunas NM, 160,000 acres
8. Michael Mechenbier, Albuquerque NM, 135,000 acres
9. Leslie & Linda Davis, Cimmaron NM 125,000 acres
10. Bogle family, Dexter NM, 100,000 acres
11. John Yates family, Mayhill NM, elsewhere, 100,000 acres
12. Dunigan family, Abilene TX, 95,000 acres
13. Wesley D. Adams, Logandale NV, 95,000 acres
14. Butler heirs, Massachusetts, elsewhere, 95,000 acres
15. J.A. Whittenburg III, Dallas TX and Amarillo TX, 85,000 acres
16. Corn family, Roswell NM 85,000 acres
17. R.A. (Hap) Canning, Capitan NM, 65,000 acres
18. Brittingham family, Anton Chico NM, 60,000 acres
19. Doherty family, Folsom NM, 60,000 acres
20. Jay Taylor family, Albuquerque NM, Amarillo TX, 60,000 acres
21. Baeza family, Chihuahua, Chihuahua Mexico, 55,000 acres
22. Mitchell family, Albert NM, 55,000 acres
23. Colin McMillan & Benjamin Rummerfield, Roswell NM, Tulsa OK, 55,000 acres
24. Sam Britt, Grenville NM, 50,000 acres
25. Moise family, Albuquerque NM, 50,000 acres
26. Sam Donaldson, McLean VA, 45,000 acres
27. William D. Sanders, Santa Fe NM & El Paso TX, 45,000 acres
28. Cain family, Belen NM, Mountainair NM, elsewhere, 45,000 acres
29. Baldrige family, Cedar Crest NM, Hygiene CO, elsewhere, 45,000 acres
30. Edmund F. Ball, Muncie IN, 45,000 acres
31. Mike & Deborah Smith, Pampa TX, 40,000 acres
32. David Salman family, Mora NM, 40,000 acres
33. Frank Chappell, Waterford CT, 40,000 acres
34. Mike Fitzgerald, Mosquero NM, 40,000 acres
35. James family, Logan NM, 40,000 acres
36. Huling (Jupe) Means, Mule Creek NM, 40,000 acres
37. Spires family, Cliff NM, Ruidoso NM, Snyder TX, 40,000 acres
38. Wootten family, Springer NM, 35,000 acres
39. Floyd Blackburn, Dumas TX, 35,000 acres
40. Carl Lane Johnson, Tatum NM, 35,000 acres
 
Whoa.. Sonora, sounds like your stalking some big money clients whats thier phone #'s.
You still haven't answered my real job post.
 
Shane,

I am in sales and I am based out of my home. My territory is large but a big portion of it is here in my hometown. For that reason, if I need to pick up more promotional items, product or otherwise I can come home to do it. I am fortunate, actually extremely fortunate, to have a job with such flexibility but I do spend a lot of time on the road. As for the hunts I will only be in Mexico 1 week this year but my partner will be down there both weeks to take care of the hunters. We have an extremely small operation and run a limited number of hunts. I thought that you knew all of this as we have talked in the past and I was sure I told you what I did. We were actually going to try and get together for tacos if I remember correctly last Jan while you were down there.

Drummond
 
I grew up in Northwestern Colorado, a lonely part of the state. Ever been to Piceance creek??? There aren't any condos out there and never will be, thank goodness. I do live in a cookie cutter home and sure some places have to be affected. Look at Eagle county along I-70. Lots and lots of homes. There is probably some impact and I-70 itself has cut off some migration route possibilites. I am not happy with more people moving to Colorado, thankfully many never ever hunt. Homes to have an effect but some of the biggest bucks live in town. Have you seen some of the pictures taken in the suburbs of Colorado Springs and around Evergreen?? Seems like for some reason some of the biggest live close to town, interesting!

But go out north of Grand Junction, and let me know much habitat is being lost. We are talking about an area 100s of square miles. The deer aren't coming back like the DOW expected, especially the largest class bucks. The thought they could bring it back to the 60s just by limiting tags. Look at how few tags are given out in unit 10! Your not passing up a 30 incher there for a bigger 30 incher!

Glad to see the passion on this board. It needs to become organized and channelled and brought to bear on those who are responsible for making the decisions. Like I said, I would be happy with 10% of what we had in the 60s, no joke!

Pete
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-17-03 AT 11:17AM (MST)[p]I agree with kg and the post above about killing these early season bucks on CWMU and I think he is referring to Alton. That has definately had a great impact on the Paunsagunt. Who's accountable? I agree it's the fish and game! I don't think the DWR has a clue about how to manage a limited entry mule deer unit. It's been proven over and over again. Examples, Browse, Elk Ridge, Book Cliffs, Henry Mountains, and now the Paunsagunt! I remember when they first opened Browse after a 5 year closure and it lasted for about 3 years! The lions did have something to do with it but there was sure alot poaching going on too! There was one guy that took 5 deer out of there the first year. I guess he figured his tag gave him the right to do that. They are sure doing a great job with the ELK though I wonder why? Ummm, could it be very limited tags! 10 here, 15 there, not very many tags! Duh! I wonder why we can't manage the mule deer the same way! Let's close down the Book Cliffs for 3 years and open it too early and give out 300+ tags every year until it sucks again! Let's close down the Paunsagunt and open it then continue to kill and kill giving out 250+ tags, 100+ landowner tags, let the CWMU operators conduct hunts whenever they want to, have no regulations on the air attack and pretty soon that unit will SUCK too! It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that your management sucks after all these failures!!!!! Do you think we need to change something fish and game? No, they only have $$$$ signs in their eyes! They're more worried about creating some more hunts! Maybe we can suggest they create a late season spear and knife combination hunt! Maybe a golden age hunt 80 years old and over! Maybe let's lower the Big Game hunting age again to 10 years old so more people can buy tags and hunt! C'mon this nonsense has to stop! Something needs to change significantly instead of just a little here and there! Drastic measures need to be taken like for instance cut the tags in Half! Then we need to focus on everything else like prevention and building taller fences and crossings on migration routes, limitations on technology including atv's and chute planes, habitat, predators, etc. etc.
 
UD,
The 2 deer taken from the ranches we manage were both on 100% PRIVATE PROPERTY! Many hunters in this area feel that if land is not posted then it MUST be public property. NOTHING could be farther from the truth. Much of the property the landowner owns has been purchased recently. He is a very smart business man who takes advantage of opportunities presented to him. He is living every ranchers dream, but works very hard for what he has. I would rather see one person own a very large piece of property and manage it for a healthy deer herd than have dozens of small owners shooting every decent buck that crosses the fence. There are leased lands, but much more land is privately owned by this individual. If we could get an updated platte map showing total acreage, it would blow your mind.
You wouldn't want trespassers coming onto your "3 sections" would you? Especially if you are trying to manage a herd for quality bucks, and a healthy herd. That is why we will prosecute ANYONE who trespasses or hunts on lands we manage. There is numerous public lands in NM, but just be sure you know exactly where you are at before you drive through. There is not "Good 'ol boy" system in our management plan. Know where you are and stick a big one.
Josh
 
Sonora, I thought pharmacists had office's o'well my bad.
As far as going down south, don't have the funds, but I'm very anxious to get back there & hunt the quintessential ungulate, yes the epitomy of all deer & Buckspy's rancor, the wily Coues.
 
Well you guys wont be prosecuting anyone on PUBLIC land. I know the oil fields, and better yet, 2 guys that will be with me, have or do work the oil fields (and surrounding land) for a lot of years, and know what land is and isnt public. They were even born and raised in that area

By the way I believe state law is that if you want to prosecute, the "private" land has to be posted every half mile if not every quarter mile. Im not saying Im going down there to try and break up your managment, but I know what land is what, and the state dont sell state, blm ect land for "private" land. If a rancher thinks they are going to try and run me or anyone off state land because they want you to think its private, they are VERY mistaken.
If someone wants to make sure of where I am while hunting, I will be in a blue crew cab chevy dually with license plate "cowtits". They are more than welcome to watch me, but I know the rancher, and how he tries to bluff you, and I wont take any bull jive about being on private when Im on public. Ive got my own maps, and I know were I will be going.
 
You can only hunt on state and blm land IF there is a public road the enters it. Otherwise, access can be denied. It is not the state and blm land that really concerns us. As for the landowner bluffing us, do deeds to the land lie? If you have the deed to your house, could the bank repo it? We WILL prosecute anyone the trespasses on the private lands. They are well posted. If you can't see one of our signs, then the deer will certainly be safe.
By the way, do you really know the rancher? Or is it more a case of what you've heard about him? Ranchers and dairymen are much the same as sportsmen are. ie When someone experiences great success or has something others don't, rumors get started. What about the 285"TX nontypical, or better yet a young, farmer/rancher who works hard enough, and SMART enough to have a highly successful and large operation.
I said it above and will say it once more:
I hope you have good luck and stick a brute on public lands.
Josh
 

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