The decline of the trophy mule deer

I Dont know what happended to my last post but what i said is that. the reason there isnt a lot of trophy deer left in some areas is that people will go out and shoot a 2 point the first day and. If it were the last day of the season i wouldnt shoot a 2 point. when you shoot a 2 point you arent giveing these young bucks a chance to grow. This year i had lots of chances at 2x2 and 2x3 with my bow but i didnt shoot, iam glad i didnt because the opening weekend of muzzloader i shot a nice 4x5. I think that the whole state of utah should got to a 4 point or better system if you want trophy bucks thats the way to do it.
 
Reflex_Shooter

YOU MIGHT LOOK UP ON THE PUBLIC FORUM,I THINK YOU'VE FORGOT WHERE YOU'VE BEEN!!!

IT'S ONLY ME THAT GETS A POST NUKED HERE ON THIS THREAD!!!

REMEMBER THE TRUTH HURTS,SOME WON'T LIKE IT,I DON'T CARE!!!

MAKE SURE YOU INFORCE HELLACIOUS FINES FOR BREAKING THE 4 POINT OR BETTER RULE,THE WAY THEY (DWR) TRIED IT LAST TIME DIDN'T WORK!!!

THE ONLY bobcat WANTING TO SEE A NICE 'RACK'!!!
 
what in the heck are you talking about. if you look forward to shooting a 2 point i feel sorry for you.
 
Reflex_Shooter

NO,I'M NOT LOOKING FORWARD TO SHOOTING A 2 POINT,THE COLD HARD TRUTH IS I'LL GO HOME EMPTY FIRST!!!

IF YOU READ THE ABOVE POSTS (ABOUT 200 OF THEM)YOU'D ALREADY KNOW I AIN'T INTO KILLING DOES OR SMALL BUCKS!!!

I'M ALL FOR THE 4 POINT OR BETTER RULE BUT IT MUST BE INFORCED,SOMETHING THAT DID NOT HAPPEN IN THE BOOK CLIFFS SEVERAL YEARS AGO WHEN THEY TRIED A 3 POINT OR BETTER SYSTEM!!!

THATS WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT!!!

SHOOTING A 2 POINT OFF THE SEAT OF AN ATV AIN'T MY WAY OF HUNTING!!!

IT'S KINDA LIKE LAYING 100.00 BILLS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE ROAD AND TELLING EVERYBODY DON'T TAKE THEM,THEY ARE NOT YOURS TO TAKE,SAD BUT TRUE!!!

EACH AND EVERY ANIMAL WOULD HAVE TO HAVE A WARDEN WATCHING IT TO SEE WHO WAS GONNA BREAK THE LAW NEXT!!!

YA,IT'S TOO BAD THERES THAT MANY UNETHICAL HUNTERS IN THE FIELD,BUT I'VE SEEN THE DAMAGE WITH MY OWN EYES!!!

I'VE SAID IT SEVERAL TIMES,THERE IS A COMBINATION OF PROBABLY 25 0R SO PROBLEMS PERTAINING TO THE DECLINE OF MULE DEER,IT AIN'T JUST ONE THING,IT WILL TAKE SEVERAL DRASTIC IMMEDIATE CHANGES NOW TO SEE IMPROVEMENT YEARS DOWN THE ROAD!!!

THE ONLY bobcat NOT INTERESTED IN SHOOTING A 2 POINT!!!
 
3 point or 4 point and better systems do not provide a long term solution. In the short run, they do raise the buck to doe ratio, but, in the longer term, all they do is "shift" the harvest from primarily 1.5 yr old deer to 2.5 or 3.5 yr old deer. And, it has been argued that this rule actually harms the number of mature bucks because what happens is that 70% of hunters are going to shoot the first buck they see. So, what happens is that it can have the effect of keeping somebody who would normally shoot a 2 point out in the field longer, and when hunters are in the field longer, statistically, some of them will stumble across some 5 yr old or older deer. This is all in addition to the problems shooting sub-legal bucks etc. In many areas, bucks can hit small 4 pts their 2nd set of horns, and many will get their in 3. These are not "mature" mule deer, they are teenagers. All you do with these rules is shift the harvest from babies (spikes, two points) to teenagers (little 3s or little 4s). It has been shown time and again that no more bucks make it into their 5 and 6th years from shifting to 3pt or 4pt rules. Most of the time game depts do this to raise the buck to doe ratio's, and it does have that effect in the short run.

This rule is very popular with a lot of hunters because what it does is shift the harvest to a little bit bigger deer than what they are used to shooting. If 70% of people shoot the first buck they see, imagine their happiness when they get to shoot a 19" basket 4pt.

Once again, and I hate to beat a dead horse, but these rules tend to work better in areas that have more timbered habitat, like Canada, because the bucks have better escapement in those conditions. You are not getting bigger bucks in Canada because of these rules, it is because you have a healthy deer population that has good escapement habitat.

Now, if you want to really do something with point restrictions , than the thing to do is have 2 point or less general seasons. And then after the mature bucks have had a few yrs to build up, then give out a LIMITED number of any buck tags. This will build a more mature buck population and will result in mature bucks doing more of the breeding. Where they have done this with elk with the spike only, it has had a tremendously positive effect on the herd structure. Many times more mature animals in the populations, with the older bulls doing the breeding. But, these rules would be hated by that 70% of hunters I was talking about, and is politically unpopular. The 3pt or 4pt or better rules are like a drug for the game depts because the avg deer harvested goes from a 1.5 yr old deer to a 2.5 or 3,5 yr old deer, and that 70% of hunters are ecstatic because they are shooting 19 and 20 inch bucks and the buck to doe ratio gets a quick pop. So, in the game depts eyes, everybody is happy.

muleyguy
 
IN THIS STATE IF A MULE DEER IS 3 YEARS OLD HE IS CONSIDERED MATURE BY THE DWR AND MOST HUNTERS!!!

IT TAKES A LITTLE AGE ALONG WITH GENETICS,GOOD FEED ETC. FOR A BUCK TO GET BIG,SOMETHING NOT COMMONLY SEEN ANYMORE,IF HE'S MADE IT TO 3 YEARS OLD,HE'S CONSIDERED A UTAH TROPHY!!!

THINK ABOUT IT A LITTLE,HOW MANY BUCKS HAVE YOU SEEN IN THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS THAT WAS MAYBE MORE THAN 4 YEARS OLD???

THE ONLY bobcat WANTING TO SEE A MATURE,EDUCATED 'RACK'!!!
 
I dont think that i would consider a 3 year old buck a trophy, but i agree there are some that would. What i classify as a trophy is 30 inches or better. this year when i shot my deer me and my dad where the only ones in the entire draw. We saw 9 deer 8 of them where 4 points, But only 2 of them where good bucks the one i shot and the other one that i was making a stalk on. So what iam saying is there are alot of young buck that could use some growing, and i think the way to do that is to hold out for somthing better than a 2 point. i understand your point about the 4 point or better rule and i think you are right. it would be hard to inforce. But it would be worth it if we could get it to work, it probably will never happen though.
 
I have enjoyed reading the comments that have come forth from a post that was drafted and composed very well by a good friend, "30inchbucks". I know not who you are but you are a friend and you can throw my hat in the ring!! After reading the responses the past couple weeks or so it seems many ideas and opinions have been formed and shared with each other. I was not going to post anything just enjoying reading the comments, but a couple responses have struck a nerve with me and would like to share some thoughts.
First, I know the Fish and Game employment read these post. Surely someone could respond and give us an insight in what you think, and no we do not want to hear go and attend your rac meetings!!! That is the biggest joke I have ever seen. I attended one meeting in regards to mule deer and the paunsagaunt and asked the question "How the paunsagaunt was being managed"? what do you mean they responded? I asked if this unit was being managed for trophy bucks? The response was no it was managed according to buck to doe ratio. I was so surpised and dumb founded that I could not speak. I am not sure which biologist answered me, but I wish he would open a proclamtion up and tell me were the paunsagaunt hunts fall under. "PREMIUM" is the word I think you guys use. Enough about that, I would like to hear what they have got to say.
Second, If someone was to ask me why the paunsagaunt has dropped in monster buck production over the last 7 to 10 years, I would respond with one simple abbreviation, CWMU. In the same rac meeting, the fish and game released a study that showed 70% of the mule deer summered on private land. Most of this land is located in the CWMU of the paunsagunt. Over the past 7 to 10 years the CWMU has recieved anywhere from 25 to 35 tags for their deprivation. The harvest ratio for their hunt is well in the 90% range. They may argue that one, but if it is not then they must not be very good guides. They hunt it in september. All the bucks run together in herds. They can use any weapon. 90% may be low. The bucks they are taken are not 25 inch 4x4's either. These bucks are 190 to 220 class bucks. Over a period of time you can see how and where these bucks are being taken. Now we start to see inferior breeding take over and inmature bucks breeding the does. Now we see a decline in trophies. I hate to use the word trophy because the fish and game determine a trophy to be 25 inch buck. People do not hunt the paunsagaunt for 25 inch bucks.
Who is the CWMU? Who recieves the majority of the tags? That would be the people with the most land. The Heatons have ran one of the best mule deer hunting units since the fish and game instituted tag deprivation. They have controlled their own unit. Ran it in a way they thought best, and now are begining to see how bad it has become. My theory carries with it some validity. You see once the trophy bucks are taken consistently for years over and over you get to the point we are at now on the paunsagunt. Well guess what, so is the CWMU of the paunsagunt. Now they have to expand there CWMU and eliminate the smaller competion by adding other CWMU units in the summer range of the mule deer to compensate for the lack luster performance they have in killing monster mule deer on their property. This fact is true and proven with their application to the fish and game for the 2004 season for an additional CWMU unit being put in place.
The point is their out of big bucks and now they are having to go somwhere else to hunt them.
The Fact is the bucks on the paunsagaunt are not like they were 10 to 15 years ago. Look how long it has taken us to finally start to do something. We need to make a stand, unite as one and make a change for the paunsaguant. CWMU tags need to be cut as well general landowners at equal porportions. The fish and game can continue to do this, they must stand with us and ammend what I feel has been a grievious error they have made in letting the CWMU get away with what they have done for so many years and reconcile with the hunting public. If the CWMU will no unite with us, I am sure I can find enough guys to help with the fences that are being constructed in the alton area to keep the deer out or should I say locked in for there benefit. If the fish and game will take there tags!!
 
JoeCamel,
Thanks for your insight. You must be from the Kanab area and really know what is happening on our supposedly "Premium" unit. I'm originally from St. George and have lived in Southern Utah all my life. I've spent some time on the Paunsagunt and have seen the downhill slide take place over the years. I have personally hunted it only once (this year) because of failure to draw a tag but I just enjoy looking at big bucks and taking pictures when possible. In 1993, my uncle and his friend drew muzzleloader tags and killed 2 absolute toads over there. I remember going with them checking it out and you would see bucks all over. Now your lucky to see a 24 inch 4 point and most of those are on private land. The UDWR though considers that a trophy! I've asked them what their definition of "Premium" is several times and no one at the UDWR can tell me!! You're absolutely right about those RAC meetings they are a joke. I've attended several of them and guys get up and make great points and at the same time get emotional (basically crying) and they just don't seem to listen. The RAC members minds are made up before the meeting ever takes place it seems. The meetings were suppose to be geared for public input but it's not that way. I've made comments, but I might as well be talking to a wall! I agree with you 100% on your post and your right we do need to unite as a group in order to change what is going on!
 
WAZZUP

YOUR A$$ WILL BE ON THE $HITLIST WITH ME TALKING LIKE THAT!!!

THE ONLY bobcat PLACING BETS THAT THERE WON'T BE SERIOUS ENOUGH ACTIONS TAKEN TO HELP THE SITUATION!!!
 
WELL

THERE GOES ANOTHER ONE OF MY POSTS!!!

I TRIED ANSWERING YOU WAZZUP,BUT THEY WON'T LET ME!!!

WHAT I WAS TRYING TO SAY IS:YOUR AZZ WILL BE ON THE $%ITLIST WITH ME TALKING LIKE THAT!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THINKING:NO MATTER WHAT THEY DO,IT WON'T BE ENOUGH TO FIX THE MAJOR PROBLEMS WITH THE DEER HERD!!!
 
hey bobcat? why's he on your s-list i thought you didn't like wheelers either, or have you been fillin grannys tag with 2 points since way back and ya think party huntin is a fine time honerd utah tradition?
 
beardog

I DIDN'T SAY HE'S ON MY $HITLIST,WHAT I'M SAYING IS:HE HAS MENTIONED BANING ATV'S,THAT GET'S YOU ON THE $HITLIST REAL QUICK AROUND HERE,IF ANYBODY KNOWS,I DO,REMEMBER PEOPLE GET PI$$ED WHEN I MENTION THE TUNE-UP???

NO,I DON'T NEVER REMEMBER FILLING GRANNY'S TAG WITH A TWO POINT,I HAVE A HARD ENOUGH TIME FILLING MY OWN TAG,IF GRANNY WANTS A TWO POINT THEN I GUESS GRANNY'S GONNA HAVE TO SHOOT ONE!!!

YOU THINK I'M PARTY HUNTING WHERE I HUNT YOUR CRAZY,THAT WOULD BE SELF INFLICTED MYSERY!!!

HOW MANY PARTY HUNTERS WE GOT OUT THERE???

COME ON,FESS UP,BE HONEST,LET'S HERE THE STORIES???

I KNOW THERE MUST BE SOMEBODY OUT THERE THAT WILL ADMIT TO IT???

HOW MANY USED TO,BUT DON'T DO IT ANYMORE???

WHILE WE'RE ON THE SUBJECT,HOW ABOUT CAMP MEAT,HOW MANY OF YOU STILL KILL A DEER FOR CAMP MEAT???

DON'T BE SHY,PARTY HUNTING AND CAMP MEAT WERE INVENTED IN UTAH,HOW MANY OF YOU WILL FESS UP TO DOING IT???

THE ONLY bobcat THINKING ABOUT JOINING PARTY HUNTINIG UNANYMOUS!!!
 
THE DECLINE OF TROPHY MULE DEER

THIS AIN'T ALL THE PROBLEMS AND NO PARTICULAR RANK,BUT IT OUGHT TO BE ENOUGH TO MAKE SOMEBODY MAD!!!

1-OVERHUNTING!!!

2-TOO MANY TAGS ISSUED!!!

3-POACHING!!!

4-COUNTLESS ROADKILLS!!!

5-BIG RACKS BEING TOO VALUABLE!!!

6-MANAGEMENT FOR MONEY RATHER THAN FOR A HEALTHY HERD!!!

7-6 MONTHS OF CONTINUOUS AND OVERLAPPED HUNTS!!!

8-DOE SHOOTER HUNTS THAT ARE DESTROYING THE HERDS!!!

9-POOR GENETICS DUE TOO OVERHUNTING!!!

10-THE ALLMIGHTY DOLLAR!!!

11-DESTROYING HABITAT BY BUILDING IN WINTER GROUNDS!!!

12-DESTROYING HABITAT BY UNETHICALS RIDING ATV'S INTO THE PRIMITIVE!!!

13-DROUGHT!!!

14-PREDATORS(COYOTES)!!!

15-TOO MANY TRAILS AND ROADS BEING ILLEAGALLY BUILT!!!

16-PISS POOR MANAGEMENT,I'M SAYING IT AGAIN!!!

17-EVOLUTION!!!

18-NOT ENOUGH OFFICERS IN THE FIELD!!!

19-THE STATE MANAGED MORE FOR ELK THAN DEER!!!

20-MONEY HUNGRY DWR!!!

21-SHOOTING EVERY SMALL BUCK BEFORE THEY HAVE A CHANCE!!!

22-GREED!!!

23-DWR SPENDING HABITAT MONEY ON FUTURE WOLF REINTRODUCTION!!!

24-NOT ENOUGH SUPPLY FOR THE DEMAND!!!

25-SHOOTING DOES TO GET THE BUCK TO DOE RATIO INLINE!!!

26-BIG 'RACKS' BEING TOO VALUABLE!!!

27-HUNTING UNITS UNTIL THEY'RE DECIMATED!!!

28-BANNING OF POISON!!!

29-FOREST SERVICE NOT ENFORCING LAWS BUT THEY'RE STILL MAKING MORE RULES!!!

30-INCREASED TECHNOLOGY!!!

31-TOO MANY UNETHICAL SO CALLED HUNTERS IN THE FIELD!!!

32-EVERYBODY AND THEIR DOG HUNTING EVERY YEAR!!!

33-NOT BIG ENOUGH FINES FOR POACHING!!!

34-MULE DEER GETTING WAY TOO MUCH PUBLICITY!!!

35-C.W.D.!!!

36-TOO MUCH MONEY BEING PAID FOR TROPHYS!!!

37-LONG RANGE RIFLES THAT SHOOT SIX TIMES FURTHER!!!

38-RANGEFINDERS!!!

39-HIGH POWERED OPTICS!!!

40-GPS SYSTEMS!!!

41-HIGH POWERED 2-WAY RADIOS!!!

42-ROADHUNTING EVERY SQUARE INCH,TRUCKS,ATV'S,MOTOR CYCLES ETC!!!

43-PARTY HUNTING!!!

44-SPOTLIGHTS!!!

45-HIGH POWERED BOW'S!!!

46-HIGH POWERED MUZZLELOADERS!!!

47-TAGS ARE TOO CHEAP!!!

48-CWMU'S!!!

49-HELLICOPTERS!!!

50-LAST BUT NOT LEAST THE ALLMIGHTY POOP CHUTE PLANE!!!

I COULD GO ON AND ON BUT I'LL QUIT AT 50!!!

I'M UNDECIDED ON A FEW OF THESE,BUT THIS OUGHT TO BE ENOUGH TO HAVE SEVERAL PEOPLE MAD AT ME AGAIN AND STILL!!!

NOW IF THERES A DRASTIC ENOUGH CHANGE,WE MIGHT SAVE THE FEW TROPHY MULE DEER THAT ARE LEFT,BUT IF IT KEEPS GOING IN THE SAME DIRECTION IT'S BEEN GOING,WE ARE IN TROUBLE,BIG TIME!!!

WAKE THE HELL UP AMERICA!!!

YA,I KNOW I HAVEN'T LISTED THEM ALL!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THINKING:WHY???WHY???WHY???
 
You DRILLED the MOST SERIOUS and DETRIMENTAL problems!!! We need America to wake the hell up and relize we have done it to our selfs, not that everyone is guilty of any one certain thing! If we are not careful, our days of hunting our limited... There isn't just the few problems that everybody tries to empregnate in thier own minds or anybody elses! If you want we can list every damn one of them. It only takes common sense to understand all of these issues and problems and how to fix them, but there is a giant rationalization barrier up in the minds of thousands!!! You made one hell of a post and point and I couln't agree more, except for the one about party hunting, because although I hunt only the biggest and the best doesnt meen I don't want my family there with me. I have been privilaged enough to have my dad there when I have killed my biggest bucks!! Although I do see where there are problems with party hunting! Anyway that is just my opinion on that subject. You've got my respect!
 
I just thought I would reply in response to what you said about the Paunsagaunt. I happen to know a couple of guys that hunted it this year, and they both came back empty handed. A unit that is known for its trophy mule deer is on the decline, and is not producing the deer that everyone thinks it is. I have been down there a couple of times this year just to photograph a few of these monesters, and I was unable to find them. In years past they were very easily spotted.
 
HEY BOBCAT, GLAD TO SEE I AM NOT ON YOUR LIST ,I STILL WOULD LIKE TO SEE ATVS BANNED ,BUT THATS JUST MY OPINION, AND THERE ARE STILL PARTY HUNTERS OUT THERE BUT WHO IS GOING TO FESS UP.
 
bobcatbess,
Wow! I think you've touched on them all! Good post! And SteepDeep if we "chute" the post they'll be nothing left. And all movement and momentum for change will be lost! This subject is not a laughing matter to me but I'll "LOL" anyway!
 
It has taken 221 posts on this thread to figure out what Dr. Val Geist articulated in a single paragraph. Now please end this post it is getting most annoying. Thanks
Nemont
 
Just think!,If there were thirty inchers behind every tree,we would have to be killing forty inchers to reach the "trophy Standard"!
 
I'm sorry but this has gone on long enough, the deer population is not in decline. It is rediculous. More and more monsters are being killed every year all over the western United states. From mexico to canada. Truth be told the amount of trophy mule deer is on the rise.



-Cass
 
30inchbucks,
Hey I didn't say you were annoying. Most of what you posted I can kind of agree with. What is annoying is that the subject has been BEAT TO DEATH.
From the Frozen Tundra of Montana
Nemont
 
Isn't it funny how the very people this man hates have adds all around his post. LMAO! And I'm the idiot. I'm the Moron. Right now it's Muley Crazy magazine, next pop up add may be for a hunting video.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-06-04 AT 10:10PM (MST)[p]I never stated that I hated anybody so watch what your posting! Quit putting words in my mouth!

NeMont, Sorry for getting defensive. But personal attacks by mainly one person on this site are getting old. And you're right the subject has been beat to death, but it has because the overall topic of the mule deers' future is a very passionate subject to alot of hunters on this site.
 
"Doctor Valerius Geist!" Just rolls off the tongue. Wish I had a name that fun to say. Anyway Cass, it took nuts to post that on this thread - or maybe you're just stirring. I'm not sure if you are right or wrong - except on the Pansagaunt. There I'm sure you are wrong.

I heard that the DWR just awarded the Alton cwmu six more tags? The biologist recommended cuts across the board and public tags have been cut notably. Landowner tags have also been reduced drastically. The CWMU, after some public and published pressure, begrudgingly agreed to cut also - I thought. The latest thing I heard is that they have now appealed and been awarded more tags. This against the recommendation of their own biologist? Anyone heard anything? I may be wrong so I'm just asking. I wonder if the Alton ranchers used the video of their head guide locking that huge muley in the alfalfa field last year and shooting it against the new high fence on opening morning? That's September 1st by the way. Before all of the other tags on the unit are good. Oh yeah, and it was the best buck taken on the unit all year.

I saw it several times as it made it's way to the alfalfa from bed or visa-versa. 30+, cheaters, good frome, etc. It was the best buck I could find on the unit. Many saw it last summer. The sad thing is that first time I saw it in July, I felt sorry for it. I knew it would die September 1st. Imagine it making its way the last night of August to the Alfalfa sidling along the high fence to the OPEN gate. Imagine it's return in the morning to find a truck parked there and it's routine exit blocked. Imagine it dying in an alfalfa field against a tall fence that had been designed to keep it out - without a chance! Not alot different than driving up to a herd on the Alton bench and shooting the best buck out of it - well, I guess it is a little different. Same result though. Fifteen years of it!!!!! No wonder we lowlanders have been sick about deer hunting the last ten. We got to see what was here in the early 90's and have to compare it to what we have now. The biggest reason for the decline of trophy mule deer on the Pansagaunt is PAINFULLY OBVIOUS.

Results? Accountability? Consequences?
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-07-04 AT 10:02AM (MST)[p]Kg,
It makes me sick to think how that deer died too. When I first saw that fence over there (Alton) and how high it was I was thinking to myself, why in the world would they build a fence like that? And when I seen the deer and how they entered the alfalfa fields down the main road I knew what they had in mind. You talk about unethical. The fish and game are accountable just as you say. They're the ones that have started this crap and they're the ones that need to put a stop to it! That fence needs to be cut down for one and I really can't believe they gave them that many tags again! This thing is getting really out of hand! Heck, let's just sale tickets for the circus show! That's what hunting is being turned into is a circus. Put a tent over it! This nonsense needs to stop and we need to hold the fish and game accountable and force them to change some things. The public has to band together in order to change what is going on. Obviously, the fish and game isn't going to do anything without a public uprising. If everyone just sits back and thinks, oh someone else will do it then things will get worse and worse. The time is now! Let's get together and change it! If not, I can guarantee some middle of the night fence sabotage trips!
 
I apologize for dragging this old ball and chain around in front of everyone again. This will be the last for me. If you are interested in doing something about the above concerns as they apply to the Pansagaunt, please read post #21 on the "CWMU fence" thread and contact me.

Thanks,

Klint Glover
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-07-04 AT 08:51PM (MST)[p]I'm sorry for dragging this post out of the closet again, but I figured it was the best way to get everyone's attention. For those of you who really care about our mule deer in Utah and want to get involved with a group of sportsmen with the intent of making some good things happen on the Paunsaugunt as well as other areas, check out this website www.llotp.com It's a new wildlife group organized by a group of sportsman and it has 157 members already. It's growing rapidly and they need as many names as they can get. Just contact them through email in order to get information on how to get involved. Please pass it on to everyone you can. A unified voice will make a difference.
 
I would answer that by directing you to look at the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania and their whitetail herd. There is a good article in the July 2004 Field and Stream. Also, Sand County almanac by Aldo Leupold.
 
I could not agree more. In Idaho it has been my observation that enforcement of road closures and 4-wheeler laws is almost non-existent. I have called the Forest service on several occasions to report violations, with no discernible action taken other than lip-service.
How the Idaho Fish and Game Department(IDFG)can admit that mule deer numbers are down in certain regions, and at the same time allow hunters to kill does in these same areas is beyond comprehension. The IDFG is one of the worst when it comes to the habitat excuse.
I would like to see more research on winter feeding of mule deer by the game departments. In Idaho, there is virtually limitless summer habitat. The severity of the winter is undoubtably a major factor in the mule deer population. Developing a scientific program to get the deer through the intermittent, extreme winters would reduce the wild fluctuation of mule deer numbers in Idaho.
 
I agree with you on this one Raptor. Elk have become the "Big Ticket" animal in many of the states. Utah is another prime example, there are elk everywhere in this state. Yet, it may take you 10-12 years to draw a darn tag. However, I do believe that there is also a rampent disregard for the ATV rules in many states. I hunt in Idaho, Montana, and Utah and have witnessed hunters disregard signs and drive their wheelers and trucks into areas that are closed to off-roading. Hell, I saw a truck parked on top of the friggin continental divide. Anyway, I think there is a combination of things. But I agree with 30inchbuck in that we do need to organize and begin lobbying.
 
I am a rookie when it comes to hunting mulies, i had just moved to northern nevada. This will be my first year hunting mule deer but its already looking good i work as a firefighter in california and i cover about 50000 acres of nat forest land. we go and patrol this area and get a little scouting done at the same time we have observed about two herds with about 30 bucks between the two. there are about 10 that we can tell all ready that are going to be monsters there is very little pressure on these deer throughout the year. unfourtanelty i did not draw one of te coveted X zone tags for this area and i had to get over the counter tags which is a boundary to the X zone. I am hoping this will be great because i am going to bring my 15 year old brother along for his first deer hunt.
My ideals of a trophy is a deer weather it has a 30" spread or it is a forky. it all comes down to what you have sacraficed for that animal. if it is your 1st deer then you will never forget it. if you are out with your buddies and family in a hunting camp the time spent there is worth the trophy of the experinece. well that is the take i have on this situation
One shot One Kill
 
Complain all you want about the mule deer conditions, but for the guy thats willing to put in the time researching and scouting, the dividends are exponential. I scouted a new area last Saturday, and in a 3 hour morning, I seen over 20 bucks with 3 being shooters, and one be an absolute dandy.By the way, this was on a non limited entry unit and was all on public land. The problem is, a lot of guys hunt the same area year in and year out, and so when the herds suffering in that area they make the assumption that mule deer in the entire west are suffering, and thus they continue to hunt the same old unproductive areas. So why ya all are whining and moaning, I'll be out scouting
 
cabinfever

YA,THATS WHAT I HAD,CABINFEVER!!!

NOT COMPLAINING,I'M NOT WHINING!!!

JUST TELLING IT THE WAY IT IS!!!

HIKED IN LAST WEEKEND, WHERE I'VE BEEN STUPID ENOUGH FOR 25 YEARS TO KEEP HIKING IN,25 YEARS AGO THIS PIECE OF REAL ESTATE WOULD HOLD 15-18 MATURE BUCKS,HAS SLOWLY BEEN GOING DOWN HILL,SLOWLY BUT DAMN SURELY SINCE,3 BUCKS IN THERE LAST YEAR,I TOOK ONE OF THEM,THIS LAST WEEKEND,ONE BUCK LEFT,I BELIEVE HE IS ONE OF THE BUCKS THAT WAS WITH THE BUCK I TOOK LAST YEAR!!!

O.K.,MY QUESTION IS:DO I TRY AND TAKE THE LAST OF THE MOHICHANS???

OR DO I LET HIM GO???HOPEING IF I LET HIM GO THERE WILL BE ONE BUCK LEFT IN THERE NEXT YEAR???

IT'S ABOUT OVER AND NO AND HELL NO I DIDN'T TAKE THEM ALL!!!

I WILL NEVER FORGET WHAT I'VE SEEN THERE,SO I SUPPOSE I WILL HUNT IT TILL MY DIEING DAY,RATHER I SEE BUCKS OR NOT,HOPING FOR A MIRACLE TO HAPPEN!!!

I BELIEVE I'LL LET THE BUCK GO FREE,MY YOUNG SON WILL BE OLD ENOUGH TO HUNT NEXT YEAR,I'LL TAKE MY CHANCES ON LETTING HIM GO AND HOPEFULLY MY SON OR MY NEPHEW GETS THERE TURN BEFORE IT'S COMPLETELY DECIMATED!!!

THE ONLY bobcat NOT MOANING AND WHINING,JUST LAYING DOWN THE HARD COLD TRUTH!!!
 
bobcatless

That may be the cold hard truth in your area and many other areas, however I assure you their are areas on public land in Utah and many other western states that are producing some big deer in good quanities as we speak. In fact a few of my hunting areas here in Utah that had fantastic hunting 6 years ago are now suffering, whereas areas that where suffering 6 years ago are now the one's I'm seeing good bucks in today. The real cold hard truth is as soon as an area gets noticed for producing good numbers of good bucks it gets hit hard until the herd is suffering, all the while the herds that where suffering are getting less pressure, thus allowing for more bucks to mature. So if you think you can hunt the same ole family stomping grounds that are on public land year in and year out with good results the cold hard truth just got colder. I know its hard to hunt knew areas, but for the guy willing to do his research and put in the time scouting new areas, he will be filling his tag with quality buck, and complaining a lot less.

cabinfever
 
cabunfever

I DON'T MIND HUNTING DIFFERENT AREA'S!!!

PLEASE SEND ME EXACT GPS COORDINATES TO THE QUALITY BUCKS!!!

AND NO,I AIN'T ASKING FOR ANY HONEY HOLES,JUST EXACT GPS COORDINATES!!!

I CAN SHOW YOU LIMITED ENTRY AREA'S NOW THAT AIN'T WORTH SQUAT!!!

MAYBE YOU CAN SHOW ME THINGS I CAN'T SEE???

MAYBE YOUR QUALITY AIN'T THE SAME AS MINE???

HOW MANY 35"+ BUCKS HAVE YOU LOCATED IN YOUR HOT SPOTS IN THE LAST 10 YEARS???

REMEMBER:THE MAJORITY WANT QUANTITY,I SAY THE THIS IS ONE OF THE REASONS FOR THE DECLINE,IT'S CALLED PLAIN ASS 'GREED'!!!

NOT EVERYBODY AND THEIR BUDDIES BUDDY CAN HUNT EVERY YEAR AND EXPECT TO TAKE TROPHY'S!!!

I'M EXCITED,THERES ONLY 96,999 OTHER HUNTERS TO CONTEND WITH DURING THE ELBOW TO ###HOLE ACTION!!!

YA,THE ATTITUDE AIN'T REAL GOOD,CAN'T IMAGINE WHY???

MAYBE YOU COULD START A POST CALLED'THE INCLINE OF TROPHY MULE DEER',THE DWR WOULD GIVE YOU AN ATTA BOY IF YOU CONVINCE 96,999 HUNTERS THINGS ARE BETTER THAN THEY'VE EVER BEEN,YOU JUST GOTTA MOVE CAMP!!!

JUST TELL THEM THE FAMILY HONEY HOLE IS ####ED UP AND ITS TIME TO MOVE CAMP!!!

THERE ARE BIGGER BUCKS ON THE NEXT RIDGE OVER!!!

PLEASE SEND ME GPS COORDINATES,I WANT TO HUNT WHERE THERE IS NOBODY,BUT TROPHY MULE DEER EVERYWHERE,A PLACE WHERE I CAN TAKE MY PICK,POSSIBLY PUT A 30"+ ON MY WALL,A PLACE WHERE I CAN SEE 30"+ BUCKS EVERY YEAR,ONCE IN A FEW YEARS SEE A 40"ER,OH WAIT A MINUTE,I THINK THIS WAS A PIPE DREAM,WHATEVER THE HELL THAT IS???

THE ONLY bobcat NOT COMPLAINING BUT REMEMBERING HOW IT USED TO BE,AND HOW IT IS TODAY!!!(THANK GOD MY CHUTE PLANE IS ALMOST COMPLETE!!!)
 
bobcatbess,
That is some funny stuff. LOL!!! I can't believe this post has been resurected. The incline of trophy mule deer? LOL!!!! I just can't stop laughing. Good post.
 
bobcatless

I could give you a gps coordinates to all my honey holes, but chances are you'd be to busy complaining, you wouldn't notice all the big bucks just under your nose. And I have news for you; even during the 1960's, 35 inch bucks weren't exactly the norm, however even today this caliber of buck is possible for the hunter willing to put in the time. Yes, the Paunsguant isn't what it use to be, however, I personally know of one limited entry unit in Utah that currently has been consistently producing the caliber of buck you are talking about for the last 5 years. As for public land units, I know of one area that produced 3 bucks over 30 wide and scoring between 195-200 plus. All 3 of these bucks were killed on the archery and within a less than 10 mile radius of each other.
I know the mule deer herd, as a whole, in the west has been suffering from drought and mis management, but, pay your dues and your shot at a trophy buck will increase 3 fold.

cabinfever

p.s. even if you were holding a Arizona 13b strip tag during a moisture abundant year, a 35 inch buck is still a long shot. Personally, if an area holds a fair amount of 24-27 inch bucks with one or two bruisers that is more than any hunter could ask for. The only cabinfever who believes a trophy is in the eye of the beholder.
 
how many of you whinners have ever been to the strip? did you notice all the cedar thickets? any where thers that many thick trees there will ALWAYS be mature deer. just my 2 cents
 

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