Elkassassin asked: Can you charge for something you don’t provide?
Elkster, in my profession, I cannot charge for services that I do not provide? I doubt you can either in the plumbing business. I’m not entirely sure what you are getting at with your question but I am guessing that you are criticizing the DWR for selling tags and not doing a better job managing mule deer.
I’m not here to defend the DWR or their management practices, but as I said before Utah has pumped tens of millions of dollars into conservation and habitat improvement and our deer herds are still in the tank. But to be fair, what western state has done any better over the last 20 years? Mule deer numbers are struggling all across the west. The reality is that there are numerous factors negatively affecting mule deer some of which are difficult, if not possible, to control (weather, disease, vehicular traffic, human population growth, urban sprawl, predators, etc.).
One of the problems we are facing is the sense entitlement that we have as hunters. We seem to think that if we put in for the draws and acquire enough points that were entitled to a certain size of animal. That is false. The only thing a tag guarantees is the opportunity to be in the field and pursue an animal. Sure, I’d love to have 1 million deer in Utah and see sportsmen taking 200” bucks across every general unit but that is a pipe dream. The reality is we have a dwindling resource and a growing population of hunters that want to use that resource. Therefore, we better find ways to move more sportsmen through the system without decimating our herds. That is why I am open to changes that limit technology and reduce harvest rates.
Hawkeye
Are we not just throwing ideas out? Trying to get more guys in the field with a tag is a goal we need to accomplish. Shorter season, weapon restrictions are ideas to get there. These ideas are not for the long term. I'd like to see you Gator hunt big bucks in Utah every year as well as everyone else.So you want a hunter to Buy a tag and hunt one day. Money well spent, the hunter should buy a lot of chickens with the tag money instead trying to fill his tag in a day. At least he would have something to eat.
Better have that buck spotted on those nightly scouting trips.
Elkster, my comments were not just limited to LE units. Anytime a tag takes 5 or 10 or more years to draw, most hunters start thinking they are entitled to a certain type of animal with that tag. This is true for a OIL tags, LE tags and even general units tags (see Pine Valley deer unit). How many elk points do you have, Elkster? When you finally draw the San Juan early rifle tag, will you be satisfied with a nice 330” 6x6?
And just for the record, I am not a straight “opportunity” hunter. I would prefer to see the DWR try to balance quality and quantity. I’m not supportive of hammering cow elk unless a unit is way over objective. When it comes to mule deer, however, the writing is on the wall. I don’t think we’ll ever see deer numbers approaching anything close to where they were the 60s, 70s or 80s. Therefore, I would support limiting technology and making other changes to lower the overall harvest rate in an effort to keep moving more sportsman through the system. My goal would be to increase opportunity but keep overall numbers about the same. I know that idea is not popular for some but they are the current path is not sustainable.
Hawkeye
Did you not see my other response to this subject to lumpy? Several central region sub units have improved from what they once were 15 years ago.One More Thing Hawkeye!
Remember When We Went To 30+ Units For Better Management?
How'd That Pan Out For Everybody?
You're right and you're wrong. Who do you think will win a battle between farmers and sportsmen? When we have 15 buck or more per hundred doe the question becomes how to increase the does in our base herds which are way down. Why are they decreasing?A dead buck is still just a dead buck. A dead doe is 4,6,8, more…? deer. Until the state quits killing does, I refuse to believe any other regulations set in place are truly for the animals best interest. I don’t care if the deer are eating a farmers hay field. Their cattle are eating the publics grass all summer long. It’s a fair trade. They need to learn to deal with it.
Did you not see my other response to this subject to lumpy? Several central region sub units have improved from what they once were 15 years ago.
I agree many are worse off and taking scopes off muzzys will not help at all. That's the whole point of this thread isn't it? But all I was getting at was option 2 wasn't a complete flop.Not Gonna Argue With You Ridge On Units I Know Nothing About!
But Alot Of Units Went The Other Way!
And how do you propose to increase our deer herd numbers over the next 20 years? No western state has been able to do that in the last 20 years. What is the secret Elkster? Do you have the silver bullet that no other fish snd game agency has been able to figure out? Please share and don’t waste our time with that “Hell Right” fantasy. Share an idea that is feasible and doable.We Need To Increase The Numbers Hawkeye!
DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMN!
What units do you think has improved in the central region? Don’t even start with the oquirrh stansbury. They have tanked harder than just about every unit in the state since the management switchDid you not see my other response to this subject to lumpy? Several central region sub units have improved from what they once were 15 years ago.
I will say it again, the dwr have been pregnant checking doe's for many years now the pregnancy rate is in the 90% range, it is very high. They are getting bred, but are they carrying to term??? Lots of factors that effect that.I don't believe every buck that breeds a doe, gets the doe pregnant. How does anybody know if the buck or doe is capable of reproduction? How many false pregnancy does are there during the rut? I don't think that enough does get pregnant every rutting season. We need more bucks to tend to all the does, for a few seasons in a row. Let's make that happen and see if there is any positive results
If that is true, it is purely accident and not an improvement in management, by design.Did you not see my other response to this subject to lumpy? Several central region sub units have improved from what they once were 15 years ago.
The Utah sport hunting management philosophy was established in the 1950s during a different time and a different circumstance. Utah had a small State population of hunters combined with a very large population of mule deer, at or in excess of habitat carrying capacity. With genuine anxiety over creating another starvation condition that destroyed the mule deer herd on the Kiabab National Forest. As mule deer populations hit critical mass and exploded, 1080 poison was nearly illuminating all mule deer death by predation. Fawn survival was approaching 90 fawn per hundred does. Livestock operators were constantly pushing for reduction in mule deer populations, and farmers/ranchers considered sport hunting as a asset to mule deer reduction.We Need To Increase The Numbers Hawkeye!
DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMN!
Taking Technology Away Just To Try & Lower The Success Rate to Sell More Tags Is NOT Fixing The Problem!
It Does ABSO-F'N-LUTELY Nothing To Increase Herd Numbers!
You Get That Part?
Alot Of Us Has Seen The TECHNOLOGY & GADGETRY Run Rapid For Years While Herd Numbers Continued To Fall!
But Damn I Guess it Was Fun Until We Got To Where We Are Now With a F'D Up Suffering Deer Herd!
Last data I checked showed birth rates were respectable but survival rates were extremely low.I will say it again, the dwr have been pregnant checking doe's for many years now the pregnancy rate is in the 90% range, it is very high. They are getting bred, but are they carrying to term??? Lots of factors that effect that.
Around here, we have people who haven’t set foot in the state building points. Everyone and their dog applies.I Don't Know Of a DAMN Sole Building Points in an LE Unit To Kill a PISSCUTTER!
And how do you propose to increase our deer herd numbers over the next 20 years? No western state has been able to do that in the last 20 years. What is the secret Elkster? Do you have the silver bullet that no other fish snd game agency has been able to figure out? Please share and don’t waste our time with that “Hell Right” fantasy. Share an idea that is feasible and doable.
My point is I don’t think we can grow our deer herds over a long term basis. I hope I’m wrong but I predict we will continue to see a gradual decline in mule deer numbers. Sorry to rain on your parade.
Hawkeye
Yep, so what's killing them, lots of factors to consider in that regard, not one of them is because of a buck getting killed.Last data I checked showed birth rates were respectable but survival rates were extremely low.
You can’t increase annual population numbers below a 60/100 fawn survival rate, varying slightly, depending on unit conditions.
Birth rates should run from 100-120 fawns per hundred does, survival rate should exceed 75/100, years ago, most did, now very few do.
Yep, so what's killing them, lots of factors to consider in that regard, not one of them is because of a buck getting killed.
The drought has been the biggest factor for the last few years, doe's have been aborting fawns, if they ended up having them they didn't have enough milk to keep them alive, and when they did the fawns ended up dieing due to poor conditions in the fall/winter months, then add on top of that the predators, and road kill, and it's easy to see why survival rates have been so low. The end of last year, and this year has been much better in most of the northern and central regions we should see a bounce back in the next few years if things keep going like they have. I'm seeing lots of fawns this year because we had very healthy doe's going into the fall. Also any fawns from last year that made it into the fall months should have been healthy enough to make it through the winter.
Next year should be a good year of yearlings and I net the population is a little better next year in a lot of areas.
I haven't been in the southern Units, but just from what I've herd it has not faired as well with the drought and may still be struggling.
Well good thing coyotes have a $50 bounty right?More and better feed for deer and elk is the same as feeding sheep or cattle better the feed the better the young animals have to be born with good heath.
Having more feed on farm land for them would go a long ways in the fall and winter. getting them ready for spring.
20 dollars bounty a Coyote sure wouldn't hurt either.
I know lions and bears take alot BUT they are game animals that have a season.
I stay up to date with the study's the dwr have been doing. No matter what information they gather, it is still a formula. An average they plot in a calculator and say this is it. I believe in the work they are doing, but I don't believe the numbers they publish. When they collar or capture the animals it is only like 10 - 20 animals on a unit. Then use those animals to represent the entire herd on the unit. I agree that there are lots of factors out there against the deer population.I will say it again, the dwr have been pregnant checking doe's for many years now the pregnancy rate is in the 90% range, it is very high. They are getting bred, but are they carrying to term??? Lots of factors that effect that.
This is comparing apples to oranges too.It’s interesting to think that scopes on muzzleloaders seems to be a western states issue mostly. The rest (most of) the states in the United States allow scopes and even smokeless powder on the muzzleloader hunts. Most of these areas are short range hunts from blinds or stands.
But out west where longer shots are the norm with big open canyons - we have restrictions.
And so we sit in our controlled environments and argue ethics amongst ourselves so DWR departments can divide and conquer. Sell less tags and change season dates if harvest success is too high - it’s pretty simple but so darned complex.
Keep in mind with every regulation made, they are making it harder for you to continue to hunt. Tag numbers are not increasing with these changes. They are likely to decrease even with technology changes…. I wouldn’t be so willing to give up more when they have yet to prove any of their past ideas have worked and added more opportunities for utah huntersThis is comparing apples to oranges too.
Back east, many of those places also allow you to kill multiple deer per season. Some up to 5 deer. Some more. If we had an abundance of deer and elk in Utah and the west, to the point of multiple tags per person to curve the exponential growth of the deer, then I bet we would not even be in this conversation about scopes or cameras for that matter.
I hunt all 3 season, I have all 3 weapons and I am 100% in support of the ban on cameras (which I have quite a few) and scopes on muzzys. If they keep pushing it further, I will support it so that I can continue to hunt.
I get that. I get, also, there needs to be changes one way or the other or BOTH sides loose. When I 1st started hunting and there were unlimited deer tags, that was great. But times have changed. And we need to adjust too. If we dont make changes, it wont matter, since we wont have a tag to use anyways. We cant continue to have our cake, pie and ice cream all at the same time.Keep in mind with every regulation made, they are making it harder for you to continue to hunt. Tag numbers are not increasing with these changes. They are likely to decrease even with technology changes…. I wouldn’t be so willing to give up more when they have yet to prove any of their past ideas have worked and added more opportunities for utah hunters
We’ve started with plenty and lost A LOT along the way. We aren’t getting that back… maybe we should quit managing for trophies and start managing for animal health and see how that goes, it’s about all we haven’t tried up to this pointI get that. I get, also, there needs to be changes one way or the other or BOTH sides loose. When I 1st started hunting and there were unlimited deer tags, that was great. But times have changed. And we need to adjust too. If we dont make changes, it wont matter, since we wont have a tag to use anyways. We cant continue to have our cake, pie and ice cream all at the same time.
If we make changes, and it doesnt work, then so be it....At least we tried something. But we do nothing and then wake up one day and its over and we didnt try anything, then we cant say..."I wonder what would have happened if we would have tried "X"?"
Got to start with something.
I agree 100%I get that. I get, also, there needs to be changes one way or the other or BOTH sides loose. When I 1st started hunting and there were unlimited deer tags, that was great. But times have changed. And we need to adjust too. If we dont make changes, it wont matter, since we wont have a tag to use anyways. We cant continue to have our cake, pie and ice cream all at the same time.
If we make changes, and it doesnt work, then so be it....At least we tried something. But we do nothing and then wake up one day and its over and we didnt try anything, then we cant say..."I wonder what would have happened if we would have tried "X"?"
Got to start with something.
If you’ll look carefully, Utah tag sales had already dropped from somewhere near 250,000 to about 190,000 between 1982 and 1993. No regulation caused those nearly 60,000 sportsmen to bow out before Governor Leavitt dropped the number to a max of 97,000 tags in 1993. Hunter dissatisfaction caused it, even though during that decade more buck mule deer were killed than any decade, before or since. Hunter crowding and hunting frustration with the age class of deer being killed drove tens of thousands from the field.Maybe we didn't lose those who wanted to hunt when tags were reduced from 250,000 to now 73,000? Who could see that coming?
If nothing had been done where would we be now? If nothing was done in the last 20 years would the herd be better or worse than now?
Hunters have made sacrifices and I truly believe a few make decisions to not kill when the have a tag because they are picky or don't really care unless something really floats their boat. I'm one. But saving every buck for 5 years is not going to help the herd in the long run.
If hunting is a limiting factor fine make the adjustments but I don't think I've seen anything indicating this.
Being a new comer to Utah in 1975, I wasn’t very informed until I got fired up in 1983 by the BLM and USFS Office Managers and their biologists here, when they blew up over their buck doe ratio count battles with the local DWR biologists. But, I did a lot of mule deer hunting, and spent a lot of time with people like State Representative Duane Washburn, future State Representative Tom Christensen’s son, the Cowley Family, and Petersen Family, and the Torgerson Family, the Oldroyd family, the Brienholt family, the Meaham family, the McKiff family, and countless other highly regarded hunting families in the area. To a family they had social hunting norms that were as powerful as laws, inside their hunting camps. I don’t know what ever camp/family of hunters in the State’s norms and mores where in the 1970 and 1980s but to a family, from Grandfather down to Grandson, you’d better not be killing anything but a four point if you ever wanted to get invited back to that campfire……… so that was where my empirical knowledge came from…….. yours may well have come from a different experience.I heard the whining and crying during the 70's and 80's.
What percentage of bucks killed during the 60's were 4 point or better? The 70's? The 80's? I don't think anybody bothered to worry about it.
My first tag was in the mid sixty's. Yes I heard of "monster bucks" and saw the big buck contests, but as a group my family never killed a "bragging buck". They never really worried about it.
People have been killing "what the state provided" since day one. Only the expectations have changed.
So I got a question, you say we dropped from 250,000 tags down to 190,000 from '82 to '93If you’ll look carefully, Utah tag sales had already dropped from somewhere near 250,000 to about 190,000 between 1982 and 1993. No regulation caused those nearly 60,000 sportsmen to bow out before Governor Leavitt dropped the number to a max of 97,000 tags in 1993. Hunter dissatisfaction caused it, even though during that decade more buck mule deer were killed than any decade, before or since. Hunter crowding and hunting frustration with the age class of deer being killed drove tens of thousands from the field.
When your carrying fewer that 5 or 6 bucks out of every hundred does forward each fall, 95% (give or take) of the next years harvest are yearling bucks. If you think hunters want to hunt mature bucks today, you should have heard them howling about having to kill yearlings during the 1970 and 1980’s.
Times have changed and when 90% of your bucks are yearlings, and that what hunters anticipate that’s what hunters will kill. Currently that’s what they expect ……. so that’s what they shoot. I’m not going belittle hunters who kill yearlings when that is what 90% of the legal population is made up of. Don’t blame the hunter, he just hunts and kills what the State provides him to hunt.
I like your post and mostly agree with the exception of tag numbers and it’s overall numbers. We know that deer tags went from 250,000 to 85,000 or around that number. And when that happenned it was coincidence that elk tags went on sale for 30,000 or so. And so when the numbers go down on deer they are increased somewhere else. Season dates could be changed/tweaked to lower success on rifle and archery but that’s not being considered. When I think of quality of deer I think about all the CWMU units that are allowed to hunt outside of the suggested timeframes. So it’s pretty much a guarantee that those hunts are November and December. And how many deer come of public and winter on CWMU units ?Keep in mind with every regulation made, they are making it harder for you to continue to hunt. Tag numbers are not increasing with these changes. They are likely to decrease even with technology changes…. I wouldn’t be so willing to give up more when they have yet to prove any of their past ideas have worked and added more opportunities for utah hunters
Lumpy, but in '98 and well into the 2000's general tags were by region. I live in the NE region and we never had an issue getting a rifle tag every year until about 10 years ago maybe.According to DWR Director who will remain nameless, the demand for Resident Deer tags in Utah has been compounding by approximately 10% per year. If it has actually only grown an average of 5% compounded annually there still over 200,000 Resident applying for a tag……and some with numerous points each, so because the number of tags stays stagnate or changed little from year to year, and the number of points per applicant goes up each year, less the applicants that draw, each year your chances of getting go go down. It took a while for the compounding affect to kick in and there used to units that not as many people applied for, so for a few years after 93, if you were usually applying for a low interest unit you could have draw very often. It took while before Units like Thousand Lake started to take 3 or 4 years to draw. By now some units take longer and nearly all units have begun to take longer than they used to. Especially is Residents accumulate points and fewer tags are sold.
Not sure if those are facts but that would be my simple minded explanation. I have a son that has hunted almost every year and stills has 5 or six General Season points too.
It’s a mess.
Lumpy, How are they going to to do that when Utah is managed by Youngsters who get their marching orders by Youngsters who get their information out of a "Cracker-Jack-Box. Hate to say it, but we are run by a bunch of bureaucrats who are afraid to do anything, so you have what you have. Good by deer.Until the management stops being managed as if the condition were the same as they were in the 1960-1980s mule deer will never rebound. It’s the philosophy that has to change before anything else can ever change.
It’s not going to until mule deer are no longer a huntable species, in the State of Utah.
This is true, happened to my family back then. I hunt solo now for the most part. No more big family camps and getting out of school for the deer hunt. I hope to bring this tradition back into my family with my kids.After those changes in the 90's. A Lot of people quit hunting in Utah. Resident and Non Resident. Gone were the days in some southern units that had huge camps that were mostly guys from out of state. Familys quit hunting together, especially if they were traveling from out of state. The older guys were disgusted with the dwr and the state. These same guys that stopped hunting back then, would always tell us that hunting is becoming a rich man's sport.
And a 400 yard muzzle loader shot isnt?
Don’t know and I am releaved to say I have generally stopped caring if or how they are going to do it. As I have said a lot over the last 9 or 10 years. I just hunt, fish, where I can, when I can, with whom ever I can. I can honestly say I haven’t been to a single public meeting or met with a single wildlife administrator for nearly a decade. And…… their phone not ringing is me not calling. I see a couple of local gents helping the kids with their pheasant project every once in a while. I got a black bear tagged and processed last year……. That’s been it for me, since my stint on the previous Five Year Mule Deer Plan committee.Lumpy, How are they going to to do that when Utah is managed by Youngsters who get their marching orders by Youngsters who get their information out of a "Cracker-Jack-Box. Hate to say it, but we are run by a bunch of bureaucrats who are afraid to do anything, so you have what you have. Good by deer.
In 93 when Gov. Leavitt set the State Ceiling on tags at a high of no more than 97,000. and set the State up into 5 regions, each region was given the same “ratio” of tags out of the 97,000 as that regional area ratio had sold over the counter, the previous year. So……. until Option 2 was put into effect about 10/11 years ago, hunters could buy a regional tag, over the counter for General Season hunt…..” until” that Region’s allotment of the 97,000 tag were sold. Then they were supposed to stop sales. (us tinfoil hat types worried that the DWR were fudging and selling more tags than the a lot Ali mtment of the 97,000…..but there was no way to prove it, so it was just another conspiracy theory that got added to the napkin meeting’s minutes. Beyond that Jake, I’m at a loss……..just water under the bridge, I guess.Lumpy, but in '98 and well into the 2000's general tags were by region. I live in the NE region and we never had an issue getting a rifle tag every year until about 10 years ago maybe.
Your telling me that in '93 they took 100,000 tags out of the pot more then double the number they left in and it didn't immediately cause a massive back log of people wanting a tag?
I get why we are where we're at now, but those numbers from the 90's doesn't make sense.
I agree with you but aren't we all getting a little "sensational".And a 400 yard muzzle loader shot isnt?
Let them use their long range muzzle loaders. I honestly don't care. Just do it during the ALW hunts. Then on the muzzleloader hunts, use (what was once called a primitive weapon) open sight muzzleloader. Pretty simple.I agree with you but aren't we all getting a little "sensational".
Honestly, how many Utah mule deer were killed last year at or past 400 yards with a muzzleloader?
My guess is as good as yours and I'll say 3-6. Let's say that it's an outlandishly high number, like 20. All this for that? Weird how we all get so worked up about technology and damn few use it to kill deer.
We all throw out number like we actually know when, in fact, we have no idea.
True, we should limit the emerging technology that takes over for the shooter but I think we are knee-jerking a bit much on scoped muzzleloaders when it's been admitted it's not a management move.
Zeke
I'll tell you what's pretty simple. Keeping things the same as they are now. Sure, there was a group of guys that wanted to play " mountain man" decades ago but once the inline muzzleloader took over the market, those days of dressing up mountain man style are long past. Nobody is stopping you from dressing up in your buckskins, coonskin hat and packing around that 10+ pound hawkin rifle but please don't push that style onto the other 90 percent of the inline hunters. Nothing is stopping you guys from hunting that way. Face the fact, Utah's muzzleloader season has evolved and that's ok, there's nothing wrong with that type of progression. Utah's muzzleloader season might be unique and not the same as it's surrounding states but that's not necessary a bad thing. Something to thing about.Let them use their long range muzzle loaders. I honestly don't care. Just do it during the ALW hunts. Then on the muzzleloader hunts, use (what was once called a primitive weapon) open sight muzzleloader. Pretty simple.
Why not out things back they were? Even more simple! ?I'll tell you what's pretty simple. Keeping things the same as they are now. Sure, there was a group of guys that wanted to play " mountain man" decades ago but once the inline muzzleloader took over the market, those days of dressing up mountain man style are long past. Nobody is stopping you from dressing up in your buckskins, coonskin hat and packing around that 10+ pound hawkin rifle but please don't push that style onto the other 90 percent of the inline hunters. Nothing is stopping you guys from hunting that way. Face the fact, Utah's muzzleloader season has evolved and that's ok, there's nothing wrong with that type of progression. Utah's muzzleloader season might be unique and not the same as it's surrounding states but that's not necessary a bad thing. Something to thing about.
The problem is, the majority of muzzleloaders today aren’t anywhere even close to meeting the definition of a modern fire are. Even entirely scopeless, muzzleloaders todays are leaps and bound ahead of what a “primitive” muzzleloaderLet them use their long range muzzle loaders. I honestly don't care. Just do it during the ALW hunts. Then on the muzzleloader hunts, use (what was once called a primitive weapon) open sight muzzleloader. Pretty simple.
Agreed, as long as modern compound bows are only allowed during ALW hunts.Let them use their long range muzzle loaders. I honestly don't care. Just do it during the ALW hunts. Then on the muzzleloader hunts, use (what was once called a primitive weapon) open sight muzzleloader. Pretty simple.
I agree. If that is what we need to do, then do it! I am all for it. Get back to hunting, not killing.Agreed, as long as modern compound bows are only allowed during ALW hunts.
Then on the archery hunts, use (what was once called a primitive weapon) recurve or long bow. Pretty simple.
So, how much do the modern compound bows add to the archery hunt success rates to make you want to push them into the ALW hunts? Or is it just the compound technology that makes the difference, regardless of the success rates?Agreed, as long as modern compound bows are only allowed during ALW hunts.
Then on the archery hunts, use (what was once called a primitive weapon) recurve or long bow. Pretty simple.
I would bet if the archery hunt consisted of recurve bows only that the already low sucess rate would nosedive considerably. Especially on mature deer.So, how much do the modern compound bows add to the archery hunt success rates to make you want to push them into the ALW hunts? Or is it just the compound technology that makes the difference, regardless of the success rates?
While it's true that every weapon type is not what it once was, that doesn't mean the success rates are affected that much.I would bet if the archery hunt consisted of recurve bows only that the already low sucess rate would nosedive considerably. Especially on mature deer.
I was just trying to prove a point that every weapon type is not what it once was.
I'd bet not. The F&G would just up the tags and have it as a second option or leftover option and all the guys who didn't draw the other seasons would be all over it.If they changed the archery hunt to recurve or long bow only I would bet there'd be a whole heck of alot less archery hunters in the field...
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