Arizona leading the way, auction tags to be history

berrysblaster said:
I won’t waste anymore time here because it’s somewhat subjective since there isn’t a line in the model that explicitly states ‘private money bad for hunters and animals’
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Like I said. Nothing in the NACM says hunting opportunities, big game tags, can't be auctioned.
 
The wildlife in a State is owned by the citizens of that State and citizens decide to hire wildlife managers to manage the wildlife and the managers decide they need money. Why charge hunters? Because they kill some of those animals and reap the benefits. That makes sense.

Wolf lovers want wolves to kill the same animals hunters get charged for. Why aren't wolf lovers charged? They should have some skin in the game too because they directly take animals.

Then if the managers decide to hunt wolves, the hunters have to pay again, and all the wolf lover does is *****.
 
Tristate said:
Yeah. The state decided. Keep up
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The Commission is composed of five members appointed by the Governor pursuant to A.R.S. 38-211. The Commission appoints the Director of the Arizona Game and Fish Department, and the Director serves as secretary to the Commission. No more than one commissioner may be from any one county. No more than three may be from the same political party. Each commissioner serves a five-year term, staggered. Commissioners customarily serve as chair during their last year.



Where did the citizenry of Arizona vote for their game commission?
 
hossblur said:
The Commission is composed of five members appointed by the Governor pursuant to A.R.S. 38-211. The Commission appoints the Director of the Arizona Game and Fish Department, and the Director serves as secretary to the Commission. No more than one commissioner may be from any one county. No more than three may be from the same political party. Each commissioner serves a five-year term, staggered. Commissioners customarily serve as chair during their last year.



Where did the citizenry of Arizona vote for their game commission?
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You are arguing your own proof that the state decided. Thank you.

However I can not alleviate your psychosis.
 
Tristate said:
Any of that can occur with any type of tag. Not just an auction tag.
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It always happens on high profile units. The madness on the strip, kaibab, pauns , henries, ect. Do you need me to get the WLH YouTube hunting apple video out to remind you of the outfitting ******* that happens across the west. Or the WLH mother F’r clip on the pauns. Do we need to post the case notes from Alan Hamberlans hunt that got them Ryan Hatch busted. If these guys want to do these laim posse hunts maybe they should be buying estate bucks and bulls and do it behind a high fence.
 
wstrntines said:
It always happens on high profile units. The madness on the strip, kaibab, pauns , henries, ect. Do you need me to get the WLH YouTube hunting apple video out to remind you of the outfitting ******* that happens across the west. Or the WLH mother F’r clip on the pauns. Do we need to post the case notes from Alan Hamberlans hunt that got them Ryan Hatch busted. If these guys want to do these laim posse hunts maybe they should be buying estate bucks and bulls and do it behind a high fence.
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It doesn't always happen on high profile units.

It doesn't always happen on auction tags.

You don't have to watch videos you don't like.
 
Tristate said:
It doesn't always happen on high profile units.

It doesn't always happen on auction tags.

You don't have to watch videos you don't like.
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So WLH and the island incident wasn’t on a high profile unit. Isn’t their only 2 tags for antelope island. What about the chopper on the panguitch, a high profile tag and a high profile unit. What about the blam ram wasn’t that a high profile tag and unit. What about the treed lion and the running a bear off bait. Pretty high profile unit and person. Sorry but you know nothing about the ******* of western hunting. It almost always happens on a high profile unit. Great thing is Ryan Hatch was held accountable I hope your boy from Holden really gets the screws put to him.
 
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the problem with auction tags is not the money that comes in for conservation for me, its the fact that our wildlife management is catered to the auction tags and not to the health of herds or to the benefit of the public. Why didn't Utah completely go away from the early season elk rifle tags, because they feared that conservation prices would go down, it wasnt about anything else.
 
"WLH and the island incident wasn’t on a high profile unit. Isn’t their only 2 tags for antelope island."

No proof ever provided that anything ever happened there. NOT ON YOUTUBE
 
" What about the chopper on the panguitch, a high profile tag and a high profile unit. "

Which is nothing more than a random picture of a helicopter and a bunch of internet gossip. AGAIN, NOT ON YOUTUBE.

"What about the blam ram wasn’t that a high profile tag and unit."

Utah admitted fault there. AGAIN, NOT ON YOUTUBE.

"What about the treed lion and the running a bear off bait. Pretty high profile unit and person."

The lion wasn't on a "high profile unit".AGAIN, NOT ON YOUTUBE.


" Sorry but you know nothing about the ******* of western hunting. It almost always happens on a high profile unit. Great thing is Ryan Hatch was held accountable I hope your boy from Holden really gets the screws put to him."

Face it your all over the place pulling stuff out because you realize your past argument wasn't based on anything more than emotion and your inability to just decide you don't have to watch every YOUTUBE video people try to pi55 you off with.
 
Tristate said:
"WLH and the island incident wasn’t on a high profile unit. Isn’t their only 2 tags for antelope island."

No proof ever provided that anything ever happened there. NOT ON YOUTUBE
 
" What about the chopper on the panguitch, a high profile tag and a high profile unit. "

Which is nothing more than a random picture of a helicopter and a bunch of internet gossip. AGAIN, NOT ON YOUTUBE.

"What about the blam ram wasn’t that a high profile tag and unit."

Utah admitted fault there. AGAIN, NOT ON YOUTUBE.

"What about the treed lion and the running a bear off bait. Pretty high profile unit and person."

The lion wasn't on a "high profile unit".AGAIN, NOT ON YOUTUBE.


" Sorry but you know nothing about the ******* of western hunting. It almost always happens on a high profile unit. Great thing is Ryan Hatch was held accountable I hope your boy from Holden really gets the screws put to him."

Face it your all over the place pulling stuff out because you realize your past argument wasn't based on anything more than emotion and your inability to just decide you don't have to watch every YOUTUBE video people try to pi55 you off with.
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You’ll do anything to defend a law breaker.
1711330248435.png
Is the innocence project working with your boy?
 
wstrntines said:
5,10,15 more dollars fine by me. If it means never watching another Jimmy John hunt with 30 retards filming 30 retards and then flexing like they are hero’s at the same time. I’m good with that. While we are at it ban outfitting on public land it won’t hurt my feelings or most normal every day hunter.
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That is so funny wstrntines ! It is exactly how I have seen it so many times. The tag owner acts like a bad asp , and has 7 or 8 guys in a picture with his prize Muley. I really like seeing those big Deer, but not as a result of the Clown Show hunts. What I really enjoy is seeing the pictures of so many members on MM who worked hard and did it on their own.
 
DeerMadness said:
That is so funny wstrntines ! It is exactly how I have seen it so many times. The tag owner acts like a bad asp , and has 7 or 8 guys in a picture with his prize Muley. I really like seeing those big Deer, but not as a result of the Clown Show hunts. What I really enjoy is seeing the pictures of so many members on MM who worked hard and did it on their own.
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Agreed it’s great seeing guys get a good animal without a posse full of a55hats present.
 
Tristate said:
Keep trying Karen.
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How do you complain about criminals coming through our southern border and defend your buddy? Both committed crimes! If the illegals brought you an estate buck to mount on their journey crossing, could you look the other way like you do for your buddy? That’s the difference in you and I can look at both groups and see they are criminals and there should be punishment. You on the other hand can’t seem to admit that.
 
"How do you complain about criminals coming through our southern border and defend your buddy?"

I didn't complain about criminals coming through our southern border. Go back and read.

"Both committed crimes! If the illegals brought you an estate buck to mount on their journey crossing, could you look the other way like you do for your buddy?"

Not sure who you are talking about but I didn't get an estate buck from my buddy. Not sure where you get your info from but it ain't good.

" That’s the difference in you and I can look at both groups and see they are criminals and there should be punishment. You on the other hand can’t seem to admit that."

I've never said criminals shouldn't be punished. Are you off your meds?
 
cantkillathing said:
the problem with auction tags is not the money that comes in for conservation for me, its the fact that our wildlife management is catered to the auction tags and not to the health of herds or to the benefit of the public. Why didn't Utah completely go away from the early season elk rifle tags, because they feared that conservation prices would go down, it wasnt about anything else.
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You had me eating out of the palm of your hand until you ask why they didn’t get rid of early rifle elk tags entirely.

Zero biological support for doing that. Absolutely zero.

Biology needs to reign here, not hunter demand.

Period. End of story.
 
The NA Model is referenced often, but is actually quite vague with plenty of room for interpretation. Here is a link to the best document I know of about the NA Model.

For example, the commercialization of game could be taken by some to mean that no monetary gain should be made from the hunting of game, not just limited to selling parts of wildlife or live animals. Below is a screenshot that in its context is reference George Grinnell's (historically a big part of what we have today) definition of sportsman as it relates to the NA Model. One could argue that any state which allows for guides to financially profit from hunting are directly in violation of the model. However, I realize that one could easily make an argument that a hunting guide doesn't apply.

In regards to making up the money for conservation, auction, and/or Governor Tags, I've done the calculation for UT (which has one of the largest conservation permit programs). The money could easily be made up by increasing the application fee by $20/app with room to spare. My opinion is that $20/app would not negatively impact participation in a meaningful way. I could be wrong. Beyond that, how that money is handled, where it goes, who manages it, etc. is another conversation entirely. All of these topics become contentious. That's not new and it isn't going to change.
1711336693868.png
 
chrisamx said:
They used to raffle tags in CA, now they only auction to the rich...no telling where the money goes and if there are any audits .
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And CA auctions a bunch! To be fair, tule elk and desert bighorn’s have probably benefited some from the money raised…but mule, deer and Pronghorn populations continue to slide.

7A4A07AC-B1E9-4B9B-BCE4-61F9281109DC.jpeg
 
Tristate said:
See that's what you don't understand about rich folks. They don't sit around blaming problems on some group or hating poor people. They go find satisfaction in something else. Just because those evil Ritch folks aren't buying conservation tags doesn't suddenly mean they gave up hunting.

Sorry your illogical hate didn't provide you the childish satisfaction you hoped for.
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I’m hoping to get some more “how rich guys think” tips before this thread dies.

Is there a GET TO THE CHOPPER! meme I missed?
 
In case yall were wondering Teddy Roosevelt paid hunting guides all the time.

He also paid for people to film some of his hunting and took lots of pics that he made sure were placed in publications world wide.
 
Tristate said:
In case yall were wondering Teddy Roosevelt paid hunting guides all the time.

He also paid for people to film some of his hunting and took lots of pics that he made sure were placed in publications world wide.
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How many exclusive tags did he buy?
 
In AZ’s case, I think the cost (1 deer tag) was worth the benefit (~$400k-$700k) that mostly goes to conservation and is managed fairly well compared to some other states.
 
Vanilla said:
You had me eating out of the palm of your hand until you ask why they didn’t get rid of early rifle elk tags entirely.

Zero biological support for doing that. Absolutely zero.

Biology needs to reign here, not hunter demand.

Period. End of story.
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Can you show me where it is biological to keep hunting them in the rut?
 
notdonhunting said:
Not arguing one way or another.
So Arizona take away auction tags that the super wealthy buys (multi millionaire's) and then put the same permits into a raffle system and charge a fairly high price for each raffle ticket trying to make up for what the auction tags brought in, and now instead of the super wealthy having a guaranteed permit now it is the wealthy (guys that make several hundred thousand) and up.
You did not give back the tags to the general average hunter you just included another class of rich people.
The simple fact is the haves will always have more than the average have not, and this is coming from a have not.
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I don't disagree. The more tickets the wealthy guys buy, the better the odds, but at least the broke guys can buy one ticket and have a slim chance to draw it. That's one more fraction of a chance for all the broke guys that they didn't have before.
 
So I think the problem is there are more and more tags being auctioned off.
You know how it is, once you start something.......
Lets limit it to 1 tag per state then hopefully the money guys knowing there arent that many tags, will pay more. So there is the conservation money.
I dont think it has been mentioned that there will still be plenty of landowner tags for folks to bid on.
 
cantkillathing said:
Can you show me where it is biological to keep hunting them in the rut?
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Which unit has a deficiency in bull elk?

I think we’d both agree we’d like to see more elk across the board. In fact, I know we both want that!

But which unit has too few bulls?
 
Vanilla said:
Which unit has a deficiency in bull elk?

I think we’d both agree we’d like to see more elk across the board. In fact, I know we both want that!

But which unit has too few bulls?
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There not one, but you are against cutting deer tags because of the lack of opportunity it brings, but you are not in favor of cutting the early rifle tags that would help increase tags else where which would give more opportunity.
 
cantkillathing said:
There not one, but you are against cutting deer tags because of the lack of opportunity it brings, but you are not in favor of cutting the early rifle tags that would help increase tags else where which would give more opportunity.
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I'll let Vanilla speak for himself

But we've cut 140,000 tags in Utah.

Where are we seeing increases in tags ?
 
hossblur said:
I'll let Vanilla speak for himself

But we've cut 140,000 tags in Utah.

Where are we seeing increases in tags ?
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You have to follow: Vanilla is against cutting deer tags, he stated that they didn't cut the early rifle elk tags because it wasnt biological, but the elk proposal at one point was to cutt all the early rifle elk permits in favor of adding more hunts and more tags that would give way more opportunity, but the money spoke and the reason it wasn't cut was because the fear of loosing high auction prices, so the early rifle is still in place therefore limiting hunting opporttunity.
 
cantkillathing said:
You have to follow: Vanilla is against cutting deer tags, he stated that they didn't cut the early rifle elk tags because it wasnt biological, but the elk proposal at one point was to cutt all the early rifle elk permits in favor of adding more hunts and more tags that would give way more opportunity, but the money spoke and the reason it wasn't cut was because the fear of loosing high auction prices, so the early rifle is still in place therefore limiting hunting opporttunity.
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If you are referencing the last elk committee this is not an accurate summation.
 
You’re reaching here, cantkillathing! And we both know your ladder isn’t that tall!!! :p

I’m all about doing things for biological reasons. And our early rifle hunt in Utah meets a biological need: killing more bulls.

I’ll never possess an early rifle tag unless I get dumb lucky sometime down the road. I think it would be a huge mistake to remove that hunt. I can live with the changes already made, but I still don’t think it was right.
 
Hey Hossy?

Do You Remember When We Hunted Several Units Down To Nothing & They Had To Be Closed For 5 Years?

I Guess That Wouldn't Profit Some Tags Cut?

hossblur said:
I'll let Vanilla speak for himself

But we've cut 140,000 tags in Utah.

Where are we seeing increases in tags ?
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elkassassin said:
Hey Hossy?

Do You Remember When We Hunted Several Units Down To Nothing & They Had To Be Closed For 5 Years?

I Guess That Wouldn't Profit Some Tags Cut?
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I do.

Then we opened them back up for the guides and "conservation" tags to..*checks notes*

shoot it down to nothing
 

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