Colorado Statistics updated

[born_2_hunt]

The CPW site has updated the statistics for the 2012 draw odds and points required.

Now I guess we'll see how much point creep we'll have to deal with this next years draw.

http://wildlife.state.co.us/Hunting/BigGame/Statistics/Pages/Statistics.aspx

 

[elks96]

Deer tags fr me jumped 2 points and elk jumpe 3 in one unit and 2 in the other figures....

 

[HiMtnHntr]

It's the nature of the beast. Keep in mind that the preference point stats given by the CPW are for minumum points to draw. In most cases it takes at least one more to seal the deal. Colorado will have to do something at some point with their system.

 

[Cohntr62]

>It's the nature of the beast.
> Keep in mind that
>the preference point stats given
>by the CPW are for
>minumum points to draw.
>In most cases it takes
>at least one more to
>seal the deal. Colorado
>will have to do something
>at some point with their
>system.


You are right about needing 1 more point than the min. to guarantee the tag, but I don't understand what you mean when you say they will have to do something with their point system. I'm a NR who chooses Co. for hunting trips due to the system. Their pure PP system allows us to predict what we can draw, thus allowing us to plan trips. I don't like a system that relies on luck.

 

[elks96]

I think the real issues are around the hardest to get tags and the amount of people with tremendous amounts of points. Really the issue is constant creep with most units. When the PP systems started, our deer unit was a 100% draw with no points for a resident. Then is went to about a 50% draw with 1 point. Now it is a 30% chance with 1 point and looking at things next year it will require 2 points for about a 70% draw.


Look at the quality units. When I started it was 12 points to draw for my tag. I am at 14 points and trying to catch 17 points. IN all honesty before I draw I fully expect that it will be at least 20 to draw for an archery tag before I am up.


The only nice part is we still get otc elk tags. If that ever changes it will be horrible for CO. The predictability is nice, unless you can predict that you are 15 years into the points and still are looking at another 5-6 years.

 

[dirtygrass]

I burned 10 deer points on a 1 point unit two years ago, best decision I have ever made. Now I have 10 for elk and want to hunt 61, one behind, if it creeps a point next year I will burn my points. I started hunting WY and spending the money to get tags and I bought horses which changed my life.

 

[muley10]

Hang on this situation that is requiring 1 or 2 points to draw deer is because the tags have been cut back some units are only getting approx 15 percent of the tags allotted as compared to years back so there is no choice that hunters are going to have to wait for there turn i cant hunt deer at all in colorado because of having points not ready to use . i could buy a landowner tag but cant really afford the extra cost. for yrs i drew a deer tag as a second choice because the unit had 900 tags for the 3rd season Now it offers around 100.. Only thing we can do is prey that the deer herds return as they are not through out the west

 

[HiMtnHntr]

"You are right about needing 1 more point than the min. to guarantee the tag, but I don't understand what you mean when you say they will have to do something with their point system. I'm a NR who chooses Co. for hunting trips due to the system. Their pure PP system allows us to predict what we can draw, thus allowing us to plan trips. I don't like a system that relies on luck."

Just point creep I'm referring to . . . lots of people are behind the curve for some units and will never draw. It would be nice to have a shot at those areas but the points just keep increasing . . . I understand your point, however, and for a lot of units that are under the radar the system is OK.

 

[elks96]

Until those people who are behind and never catch up start cashing in. then it will run up points in all other units...

I also agree that the number of tags are down thus pushing up the points creep, but it will take years for this to change. Even with good recovery all those who now have 3-4 points will take a while to thin out. In the meantime those with the higher points will cash in first, and then start building points again. I am sorry to say, but I do not see us getting back to what we had in the next 10-20 years. The system has now been pumped with points and simply a couple years of good winters will not simply take points back out of the system.

 

[DirtyTough]

Thanks for posting the link.

The only way to start getting more points used up and end point creep, is to take away your points if you have a tag for that species. Whether second choice, first choice, land owner tag. Doesn't matter you lose your points. Otc tag for elk. If you hunt you lose your points.

 

[jims]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-28-12 AT 09:53PM (MST)[p]Currently all Colo deer tags are on a draw with the exception of landowner tags. Anyone that draws a deer tag their first choice uses their pref pts. I would have to agree with DirtyTough that anyone that purchases landowner tags should also have pts dropped to 0.

If Colo converted over to all draw for elk (similar to deer) it would be similar to what DirtyTough was suggesting...you draw a first choice elk tag and you lose your pts.

There are a lot of options available in Colo to draw deer tags with relatively few pref pts; however, I can't say the same for elk. If you want to join the troops elk hunting you have the option of OTC. Some like the system as is and others would like to see the elk system changed. More limited elk units/tags equates to more hunters using pref pts.

 

[ColoradoOak]

jims, it is going to get even tougher after CO raises the landowner voucher percentage from 15% to 20% in the legislature this spring.

 

[Whiterock]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-29-12 AT 04:11AM (MST)[p]The units I hunt ,the muzzleloader bull tags are getting harder to draw,6-10 pref points now needed minimum.But first rifle season you can draw with out any points and the success rate is near double for that season compaired to muzzleloader.

Just found this interesting.

 

[mntman]

jims/DT +1, I been saying this for years but no one wants to do that because they feel they will be cheated and are afraid of "change". If they made it to where you have a tag for any species you loose your points there would be absolutely zero point creep for residents. Highly doubt there would be any for NR's but still possible and if there was it would be really "slow".

Mntman

"Hunting is where you prove yourself"


Let me guess, you drive a 1 ton with oak trees for smoke stacks, 12" lift kit and 40" tires to pull a single place lawn mower trailer?

 

[elks96]

The sure hope that we never see the OTC elk tags go to draw. It would hurt the state a lot... I wouldn't mind however that NR elk tags go draw only for elk in all units. But however I really do not like the idea at all. I really like the system, just bummed that I got in on the points system too late. Kind of like WY where I am one under max on elk and lopes...

 

[Cohntr62]

Obviously, the decline in the deer herd and reduced tag quotas are the root of the problem. The units we hunt in NW Co. used to be an easy draw every year. Now, it's pretty much an every other year thing as you need the PP in the off year. However, I do feel that the state sets the quota too low in some of the premium trophy units. When they only give out a handful of tags in a unit covering many square miles, they are wasting the resource. The deer are dying from old age, predation, or winter kill. They could easily significantly increase the quotas without impacting the herd. Go to statistics and take a look at the low numbers allowed in the trophy units in the NW like 2, 10, 201, 1, and 201. Increasing those tags would help the point creep situation.

 

[jims]

COhntr62, I would agree with you in regard to the decline in deer numbers results in reduced tag numbers but disagree with your statement about wasting the resource with issuing only a handful of tags in limited units. There are currently a fraction of the deer in almost every Western Colo unit there were 5 years ago due to winterkill, predation, loss of habitat, etc. I doubt if currently there are many muleys dying of old age in any Colo units...Colo muledeer are pretty much in recovery mode right now.

A few years ago UT was re-writing the B&C books with elk. In response to public outcry they increased tag numbers in all of their limited entry elk units. Since that time bull age structure has dropped considerably. Yes, more hunters drew tags but many are complaining now since quality has dropped so dramatically! Units that used to produce 400 class bulls now are lucky to have 340ish bulls. UT did the same thing to muledeer many years ago and the muleys have never recovered! Can you remember the days when the Paungasaunt was re-writing the B&C muley books?

Currently a hunter that draws a Colo 2, 201, or 10 elk tag he stands a pretty good chance of harvesting a 320+ bull. I would expect that number to drop if tag numbers were increased. Can you imagine waiting 20+ years for an elk tag and only seeing 300 class bulls?

I also don't think doubling the current elk tags in 2, 201, or 10 are going to affect pt creep! As an example: According to the draw stats there were 27 bull tags issued in unit 2 early rifle last year. If 27 additional tags were issued I don't think that would really effect point creep in the state of Colorado. 27 tags x 10 is the possibility that 270 bulls would be harvested in 2 in 10 years. I would expect that would carry a pretty big impact on quality of bulls in 2 over time?

If you think about it...how many thousands of OTC bull tags does Colo sell each year? If each of those tags was issued in a draw unit there would be thousands of hunters using pref pts each year. This would definitely impact point creep in Colorado!

 

[jims]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-29-12 AT 12:24PM (MST)[p]Elk96 mentioned that converted elk over to a draw would hurt our state. I imagine you are referring to Colo's economy? Just because Colo converts over to draw doesn't mean they are issuing fewer tags. This didn't happen to Colo deer tags and I wouldn't expect this to happen with elk. In fact, there are quite a few muley buck tags left over after the draw every year. There would be relatively the same number of elk tags issued but they would be in a draw system.

Not only would the CDOW be able to manage the elk herd/hunting pressure a little more effectively but hunters would be burning pref pts if they draw their first choice units. I really think this is a win-win situation for just about everyone.

 

[tailchasers]

>jims, it is going to get
>even tougher after CO raises
>the landowner voucher percentage from
>15% to 20% in the
>legislature this spring.

This bothers me. I made comments and even wrote letters, sent emails, and made several phone calls to our Parks and Wildlife folks and not one reply. Then to boot not but a small handful of sportsmen how rely on these tags to hunt have made comments to the officials making the decisions. Apparently hunters who get tags through the normal draw process don't care enough about these added 5% of the tags being removed or they would be screaming bloody murder as I have. You think tag creep is a biche now just wait until they reallocate that additional 5% and hand them over to the Landowner draw. Oh BTW this added 5% is off the top of all tag allocations not just the resident or nonresident pool.

"Courage is being scared to death but saddling up anyway."

 

[dirtygrass]

It's not the sportsmen that rely on the landowner tags it's the outfitters showing up to the meetings changing the draw.

 

[tailchasers]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-31-12 AT 01:42PM (MST)[p]As I would expect as they and the landowners have the most to gain. They love the idea of an increase to LO tag numbers!! With the lack of input from sportsmen this tag grab is a slamdunk for these "for profit" people while taking these animals away from the public draw. Sportsmen loose again and the biching about point creep and draw odds will continue while opportunity to protest was there and there was hardly a wimper heard from the average sportsmen. Sad but true.

"Courage is being scared to death but saddling up anyway."

 

[AntlerObsession]

>>jims, it is going to get
>>even tougher after CO raises
>>the landowner voucher percentage from
>>15% to 20% in the
>>legislature this spring.
>
>This bothers me. I made comments
>and even wrote letters, sent
>emails, and made several phone
>calls to our Parks and
>Wildlife folks and not one
>reply. Then to boot not
>but a small handful of
>sportsmen how rely on these
>tags to hunt have made
>comments to the officials making
>the decisions. Apparently hunters who
>get tags through the normal
>draw process don't care enough
>about these added 5% of
>the tags being removed or
>they would be screaming bloody
>murder as I have. You
>think tag creep is a
>biche now just wait until
>they reallocate that additional 5%
>and hand them over to
>the Landowner draw. Oh BTW
>this added 5% is off
>the top of all tag
>allocations not just the resident
>or nonresident pool.
>
>"Courage is being scared to death
>but saddling up anyway."


Did the actual legislative language change from the committee's proposal of 10% unit-wide, and 10% private-only, or is it just straight 20% of unit-wide tags?

 

[AntlerObsession]

Is there a way to read the actual proposed legislation yet? Anybody have a link to it?

 

[ColoradoOak]

>Is there a way to read
>the actual proposed legislation yet?
>Anybody have a link to
>it?


The bill is currently in legislative drafting, but the end result will essentially codify the voucher committee recommendations that are listed on the CPW website. There will be no major changes.

Scroll down to "Recommendations."

http://wildlife.state.co.us/Hunting...ee/Pages/LandownerVoucherReviewCommittee.aspx

 

[tracker12]

Can someone tell me what is the code for Unit 2 Muzzy Cow. Trying to determine how many points that tag takes if any.

 

[elks96]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-31-12 AT 07:03PM (MST)[p]Should Be EF00201M... Itl ooks like 0 and 0 for points required...


Just FYI... Hunt Codes are really simple...

1st letter is Species (E) elk (D) Deer etc...
2nd letter is Sex (F) antlerless, (M) Male, (E) either sex
3rd - 5th are the units 002, 201, etc.
6th letter Special Tag Type - 0 = general, Y = youth, L = late, etc.

Last Letter is type of weapon; A archery, M muzzle loader, R rifle...

 

[elks96]

Also I saw that there were only 5 such tags total resident and nonresident. I believe that would leave only 1 or 2 tags for a NR.

Since it is a quality unit they tend to not offer many cow tags when the bulls are being hunted.

 

[Elkhunter96]

Thanks elks96. I was trying to figure out the hunt codes, that made it much simpler

 

[BCHunter]

>>jims, it is going to get
>>even tougher after CO raises
>>the landowner voucher percentage from
>>15% to 20% in the
>>legislature this spring.
>
>This bothers me. I made comments
>and even wrote letters, sent
>emails, and made several phone
>calls to our Parks and
>Wildlife folks and not one
>reply. Then to boot not
>but a small handful of
>sportsmen how rely on these
>tags to hunt have made
>comments to the officials making
>the decisions. Apparently hunters who
>get tags through the normal
>draw process don't care enough
>about these added 5% of
>the tags being removed or
>they would be screaming bloody
>murder as I have. You
>think tag creep is a
>biche now just wait until
>they reallocate that additional 5%
>and hand them over to
>the Landowner draw. Oh BTW
>this added 5% is off
>the top of all tag
>allocations not just the resident
>or nonresident pool.
>
>"Courage is being scared to death
>but saddling up anyway."


The problem here is that the NR will more than likely support the increase in LO tags. The point creep in most areas is more than 1 a year. This gives NR access to more opportunities. NR pay the lion share of the cost compared to R (not trying to start an arguement just stating facts).

I wrote letters and called the DOW repeatedly for 3 years trying to get someone to talk to me about the point creep. Their only answer was the R wouldn't stand for anything that required a licease decrease or a reduction in tag as a percenatge ie go from 80 20 to 70 30. The increase in LO tags is a way to get more tags in the hands of NR ($575 a tag) as opposed to R ($60). The math is easy. The smoke screen is they can tell the R that they still get 80 20. However, it's minus the 20% off the top for LO tags.

They need revenue. As an example, there were 15 of us going to CO starting 2000. The numbers declined every year. No one has gone the last 2 years. It takes 144 residents to replace that income. Then the R complain about the color orange. It's a no win at this point.

I can buy a LO cow tag in NM with 100% success rate and go hunting for what it cost me to hunt in CO with a 12% success rate for bulls. NR have a hard time drawing cow tags unless it's an LO tag. NM is closer.

I can pick my shot when I go to CO. The R love the fact I don't come on regular basis. The DOW is desperate for revenue. They will continue to find ways to get tags in the hands of NR until the R decides that paying more for a tag is worth keeping the NR out.