Conservation Tag Conspiracy

[hossblur]

The cheap shots on @slamdunk are BS.

I don't need to address the grandkids thing, it speaks for itself.

Slam and I obviously disagree on tag auctions. Sometimes heatedly. Dude has never once made it personal.

He took a TON of crap from the chorus during the scope debates. The only guy who would come in and let folks know what was up, and the peckerwoods amongst us went hard at him personally. Not one of them would donate the time. Not one would face the wrath. And for the effort he got doxxed.

Same goes for MDF. Agree or not, slam doesn't hide. It's well known where he's at, and what he believes.

Anyone seen a $fw guy on the forums? Anyone read anything from them? Anyone of them defending their org?

I dislike and detest whoring wildlife for special interest groups.

But I don't take issue with the guys whose boots are in the ground from either MDF/ $fw. Those people have their heart in the right place. Slam being in the top of that category.

 

[slamdunk]

Only one way I was hunting the Pauns while in the elk pool, and it isn’t because I purchased the tag.

Honestly, I'm at a loss for words right now......

 

[Vanilla]

PEAYDAY Sent You An LE PREMIUM Tag & You're Mad At Him?

Not mad at him at all. I just don’t respect him. You’d probably rather have me be mad, but still respect you!

(There was a time I was mad at him. But that was a long time and many, many years ago. You can’t stay mad forever. Life is too short for that ish.)

 

[elkassassin]

Not mad at him at all. I just don’t respect him. You’d probably rather have me be mad, but still respect you!

(There was a time I was mad at him. But that was a long time and many, many years ago.(As In Maybe An EXPO Tag Ago?) You can’t stay mad forever. Life is too short for that ish.)

 

[SS!]

The cheap shots on @slamdunk are BS.

I don't need to address the grandkids thing, it speaks for itself.

Slam and I obviously disagree on tag auctions. Sometimes heatedly. Dude has never once made it personal.

He took a TON of crap from the chorus during the scope debates. The only guy who would come in and let folks know what was up, and the peckerwoods amongst us went hard at him personally. Not one of them would donate the time. Not one would face the wrath. And for the effort he got doxxed.

Same goes for MDF. Agree or not, slam doesn't hide. It's well known where he's at, and what he believes.

Anyone seen a $fw guy on the forums? Anyone read anything from them? Any one of them defending their org?

I dislike and detest whoring wildlife for special interest groups.

But I don't take issue with the guys whose boots are in the ground from either MDF/ $fw. Those people have their heart in the right place. Slam being in the top of that category.

 

[elkassassin]

One Thread Down!

 

[Vanilla]

Honestly, I'm at a loss for words right now......

What cat has your tongue?

 

[Vanilla]

One Thread Down!

Oh we could have got this thread locked down a LONG time ago if we wanted. I was more interested in the actual discussion than pizzing people off, though.

Bessy, have I never told you my expo tag story? It’s a good one. A real good one!

 

[slamdunk]

Oh we could have got this thread locked down a LONG time ago if we wanted. I was more interested in the actual discussion than pizzing people off, though.

Bessy, have I never told you my expo tag story? It’s a good one. A real good one!

You're against the Expo, the tags, etc, etc but still attended and took advantage of the additional opportunity and drew a premium deer tag?

I mean, I'm happy for you but.......

I'll wait for the story you mentioned to Bess.

 

[Hawkeye]

Slammy, I’ll pm you once we get past the holidays and we can grab lunch or dinner. And I’m buying. I will share some of the historical perspective with you, and you can tell me about my the current boots on the ground conservation efforts. My guess is we will both learn something. I’ve always said there are lots of good folks involved in these groups. My beef has always been with the higher ups and the guys that set this system up years ago.

Merry Christmas to all my mm.com friends! I hope we all take some time to slow down and appreciate the many good things around us.

Hawkeye

 

[Hawkeye]

You're against the Expo, the tags, etc, etc but still attended and took advantage of the additional opportunity and drew a premium deer tag?

I mean, I'm happy for you but.......

I'll wait for the story you mentioned to Bess.

I’m on the same boat!

Hawkeye

 

[slamdunk]

Slammy, I’ll pm you once we get past the holidays and we can grab lunch or dinner. And I’m buying. I will share some of the historical perspective with you, and you can tell me about my the current boots on the ground conservation efforts. My guess is we will both learn something. I’ve always said there are lots of good folks involved in these groups. My beef has always been with the higher ups and the guys that set this system up years ago.

Merry Christmas to all my mm.com friends! I hope we all take some time to slow down and appreciate the many good things around us.

Hawkeye

I'm looking forward to it my friend, it'll be an honor.

 

[elkassassin]

Hey Niller!

I'm Waiting Impatiently!

Sounds Like there was Some Kind Of A F'N Plea Bargain Made?

Oh we could have got this thread locked down a LONG time ago if we wanted. I was more interested in the actual discussion than pizzing people off, though.

Bessy, have I never told you my expo tag story? It’s a good one. A real good one!

 

[elkassassin]

Howdy hawky!

You 2 Missed Out On THE RIDE 2023!

Get THE RIDE For 2024 Scheduled Right Now So It Can Happen!

And HAPPY HOLIDAYS!

I’m on the same boat!

Hawkeye

 

[BradA]

See you at the expo!

You going to the western hunt expo? Or sheep show?

 

[SS!]

You going to the western hunt expo? Or sheep show?

Expo. No real interest in sheep show. I’ve killed my slam of sheep now I’m after another slam.

 

[Vanilla]

You're against the Expo, the tags, etc, etc but still attended and took advantage of the additional opportunity and drew a premium deer tag?

I mean, I'm happy for you but.......

I'll wait for the story you mentioned to Bess.

Correct. But that isn’t a secret. I’ve posted openly about this for years on this forum. In fact, I gave this reply below on you “Utah Goes to War” thread a week ago quoting a post you had put, so I’m pretty confident you saw it then too!

I'm almost in the same boat. I'm one that has benefitted from the expo tag program as I drew a tag I would otherwise have likely never drawn in Utah. So I'm an admitted hypocrite on this topic, because as long as there are tags to be had, I'm going to have my name in the hat for them. I'm also a well-documented opportunist.

All that said, I would 100% advocate for the tags to all go back to the public draw. I'm okay giving up that extra opportunity. It is so hard for me not to kick a person in the shins every time I hear them talk about point creep in Utah and then advocate for expo and conservation tags to continue. Well over 500 of the best tags our state has to offer back in the draw every year wouldn't solve our point creep issue, but it sure would help! It would put people in the waiting list pools, which would also help point creep. But alas, we'll just keep siphoning off these best tags and then say a rifle elk hunt "in the rut" is the biggest problem facing point creep.

Not quite the smoking gun you may have thought it was. Your memory is just as bad as Bobcatbessy’s! Nothing new or secret about me applying for tags at the expo. And I’ll continue doing it as long as they are there, just like I’ll continue to advocate for them to return to the public draw as long as they are at the expo as well. I do proudly say that I’ve never paid a penny for an entrance fee into the expo, however. And I don’t see that changing.

 

[Vanilla]

Hey Niller!

I'm Waiting Impatiently!

Sounds Like there was Some Kind Of A F'N Plea Bargain Made?

So this is a good one, but a long one, and it needs some background. I had to actually pull out my laptop to type because I can't type like this on a phone!

As some on here know, I was very involved in the stream access battles beginning back in 2009. Well, in that time I had many opportunities to interact with DP as he strongly advocated for Utah sportsmen to lose the ability to access public water. SFW ultimately took a public "no position" but I assure you that was not the message I personally witnessed promoted in several meetings. I can only imagine what was said behind closed doors in private. But it was one of these interactions I called him a liar to his face, and he knew he was lying, and everyone else in the conversation knew he was lying. It was a meeting with a small group of stakeholders and a few legislators and DP was spewing lies and making up some of the stupidest crap you could ever imagine. The one that finally got me to stop deferring in a respectful way for everyone to say their position was this: "If you give these fishermen what they want, did you know the law would allow them to come in my garden any time I water it and take whatever they want from there?" I immediately told him he was full of crap, to which he said that is how he understood it, and I simply said "You are lying. You don't even mistake the issue, you are just here lying." You should have seen his face Bessy! He had that look of the little kid with chocolate all over his face trying to claim he didn't eat the last brownie or the kid caught with his hand in the cookie jar. It was a beautiful moment when the legislator he was trying to convince with his lies looked at him and said "You know he's right Don. Don't be ridiculous." I believe that was in early 2011 that conversation took place. Don wouldn't know me these days, but he sure did back then. He was hot after being called out. I'm guessing in his prior meetings with policy makers he was not used to being called out for his BS.

Fast forward to the hunt expo in 2012. The Utah Stream Access Coalition (USAC) had procured a booth at the expo that year. In fact, MDF comped the organization the booth, which had the Don very upset and fired up over it all. I had never been to the expo, nor had I applied for any expo tags prior to that year. I had not planned to help with the USAC booth for the expo as my wife had planned to be out of town on a girl's trip and I was going to be home that weekend with the kids. She also was new pregnant and not feeling well, so she decided to not go on her trip. Late Friday night I got a call from a buddy asking if I could help out at the booth the next day as someone had backed out. With the wife home I was now free, so I said sure, I'll do it. I had the afternoon shift and as I was walking in, I walked by the expo tag area. I reached in my wallet and had a $20, and thought, "What the heck? I put in for 4 hunts, one of which was the Pauns rifle deer tag. I didn't think much of it and used a vendor badge to get into the expo and went to the booth.

Our whole goal with the booth was to make people aware of the issue, bring light to the mission of USAC, and get people signed up as members. The Don was parading important people around and shmoozing and he walked by our booth, and I called out to him. "Hey Don, bring your friends over and we can get them signed up as members! In fact, I don't think your name is on the membership roll, now is a great time to join!"

Again, he was so pissed, it was fantastic. He grumbled to some minion as he walked away and I told all his important people following him like lost puppies to come back later and I'd tell them all about this new great organization.

Fast forward 4 or 5 days and it's like 10:30pm. I was up watching the news and I got a text from a buddy that just said, "You lucky sucker!" Honestly, I figured my chances of drawing a tag were so low I wasn't even focused on learning the results. I had no clue what he was talking about! So a conversation ensued and he sent me the link to look at the results, and I was pretty stoked.

There simply was nothing better than a person in my position having had the interactions with SFW and Don the way I had on stream access, and then to draw one of the most coveted tags at "Don's show," it was just poetic justice. (And trust me, he VERY much thought that was his show for a long time. Heck, he probably still does!) Nothing better. That is where I got my 50 incher bessy. (I'm a fisherman, I'm allowed to exaggerate a little...) An expo tag! And I never have a chance of drawing again as I've been blacklisted on the dude's super secret software when he conducts the draw for the expo tags in his mom's basement. But that one tag was enough to keep me coming back for another chance. I'm no better than a crack addict.

As long as the tags are there, I will play the game because I like hunting. I'm still 100% for them returning to the public draw where they belong.

 

[txhunter58]

I don’t really know the details that are brought out in This thread. But just wanted to make a comment

I am members of both MDF and RMEF and like both organizations. And they both commit around 89-90 % of net funds received for “projects”.

But that’s 90% of “net” moneys. There are costs involved with raising money whether from a banquet or tag sales. Example: we hold an RMEF banquet in my area. We generally net about 65% of money received.

So you can’t say 89% of the 7.7M was returned to Utah. Whatever costs were incurred to raise those funds have to be subtracted out.

 

[slamdunk]

Correct. But that isn’t a secret. I’ve posted openly about this for years on this forum. In fact, I gave this reply below on you “Utah Goes to War” thread a week ago quoting a post you had put, so I’m pretty confident you saw it then too!



Not quite the smoking gun you may have thought it was. Your memory is just as bad as Bobcatbessy’s! Nothing new or secret about me applying for tags at the expo. And I’ll continue doing it as long as they are there, just like I’ll continue to advocate for them to return to the public draw as long as they are at the expo as well. I do proudly say that I’ve never paid a penny for an entrance fee into the expo, however. And I don’t see that changing.

Gotcha, you are right....I got lost in all the drama and forgot about that

 

[slamdunk]

I don’t really know the details that are brought out in This thread. But just wanted to make a comment

I am members of both MDF and RMEF and like both organizations. And they both commit around 89-90 % of net funds received for “projects”.

But that’s 90% of “net” moneys. There are costs involved with raising money whether from a banquet or tag sales. Example: we hold an RMEF banquet in my area. We generally net about 65% of money received.

So you can’t say 89% of the 7.7M was returned to Utah. Whatever costs were incurred to raise those funds have to be subtracted out.

You are correct.
My point was MDF has to spend .89 of every net dollar on conservation, not gross.
There are also different allocations depending on the income source.
"Chapter Rewards" are dollars raised from local banquets whereas memberships and larger event dollars go to projects like are seen in the WRI site.
I can attest that MDF put the most money in the ground in Utah last year at $1.9m, no other organization even came close to that.

 

[grizzly]

Can we quit calling Expo tags "additional" tags? They're not extra, they were just moved from one bucket to another.

Yes, I can apply for elk and antelope tags instead of just deer, which I'd be limited to in the normal LE draw. But, conversely, the deer tags taken from the LE draw are available for everybody else that would be limited to elk or antelope applications. It all evens out.

We're not "creating" tags, the number is set every year by other means... the Expo tags are just transferred from one draw process to another.

Whether deliberately or accidentally, I believe that calling Expo tags "additional" tags is disingenuous and misleading.

 

[slamdunk]

Can we quit calling Expo tags "additional" tags? They're not extra, they were just moved from one bucket to another.

Yes, I can apply for elk and antelope tags instead of just deer, which I'd be limited to in the normal LE draw. But, conversely, the deer tags taken from the LE draw are available for everybody else that would be limited to elk or antelope applications. It all evens out.

We're not "creating" tags, the number is set every year by other means... the Expo tags are just transferred from one draw process to another.

Whether deliberately or accidentally, I believe that calling Expo tags "additional" tags is disingenuous and misleading.

If I was misleading, I apologize.

You are correct, the tags aren't "additional", but the opportunity to draw them definitely are.

 

[grizzly]

If I was misleading, I apologize.

You are correct, the tags aren't "additional", but the opportunity to draw them definitely are.

Even that's up for debate on semantics. Here's an example...

Say every attendee at the MDF Banquet is given one ticket to be entered into a drawing for a rifle... that's part of the package they are given with dinner.

However, next year MDF decides to give every attendee two tickets (or ten or any other number); the odds didn't actually change though the attendees feel like it did because of a false sense of hope that their "additional" tickets improved their odds.

Just because I now have additional tickets stubs at my table to check when the winning number is called out, I didn't actually have improved odds (even though I arguably had more "opportunity") because everybody else got the same additional tickets that I did. For there to be additional "opportunities" there would have to be an increase in the number of prizes. But with Expo tags, there aren't additional prizes (tags)... they're just moved from one place to another that we have to pay extra money to have a chance at drawing.

For every spouse or visitor that throws their name in the hat at the Expo, that wouldn't be in the normal draw, that's actually a reduced chance at drawing than if the tag was left in the regular LE draw. (Clearly there's much crossover in applicants and we can't possibly know the true odds for each tag, but the statistical rule applies.)

To continue, my application for a San Juan elk tag at the Expo is undoubtedly decreasing the odds of somebody who is pursuing that tag in the LE draw because they're competing against me for the Expo SJ Elk tag that they wouldn't have to do in the LE draw if the tag weren't taken and given to the Expo.

Just the same, I'd rather the deer tag I try to draw in the LE draw were left in that drawing to go to somebody I'm competing against for that one specific tag (or to a max point holder) to slow point creep and get me closer to drawing the tag I'm pursuing.

Statistically speaking, for every opportunity I get to draw another tag, it's a reduction taken from the regular LE drawing. But that knife cuts both ways. I get increased odds at some tags, but there's a reduction in the odds of others.

There's no free lunch in statistics! Unless we're changing the number of entries (applicants) or prizes (tags) all we're doing is giving people the illusion of increased odds.

PS. Bonus Point systems don't "improve" odds either, all they do is make it statistically more likely that everybody gets one tag before any one individual gets multiple tags... they even out odds, but they don't improve them.

Overall odds are always tags divided by applicants. If 100 people apply for 1 tag, the odds are always 1% in the end... regardless of the "point" system used. Ultimately 1/100 will be successful and 99/100 will be unsuccessful... the guy with his name in the hat multiple times may improve his individual odds, but there's an equal reduction in odds for everybody else. The final odds will always be 1%.

It's the same with Expo v. DWR draws. We may feel like we're getting additional "opportunities" but the math always evens back out... especially with all the crossover of applicants.

The tag numbers are set regardless of which group runs the drawing, the variable is who the applicants are, which we don't know the crossover. Assuming it is high, which I think we all agree it is, then the ultimate odds are unchanged.

If you, as an individual, apply in the LE draw, but not the Expo, your odds in the LE draw are reduced by the Expo. If you, as an individual, apply at the Expo, but not the LE draw, then your odds are improved by the Expo.

Overall, especially for those that apply in both the regular draw and the Expo draw... the idea that you get "additional opportunity" is very much up for debate as there's an equal reduction elsewhere.

 

[Vanilla]

I didn’t read through all that, but I can say that even very very low odds are still better than 0.

So you are 100% correct that they are not “additional permits,” they are additional opportunity to draw a tag. However, I could not have applied for the expo tag I drew at all as I was in the elk pool. So while my chances were extremely low, they were not zero like they’d be in the general draw.

But I’m fine with the odds going back to zero for the species I can’t apply for and no longer having the extra opportunity to apply for tags by putting them all back in public draw.

 

[grizzly]

I didn’t read through all that, but I can say that even very very low odds are still better than 0.

So you are 100% correct that they are not “additional permits,” they are additional opportunity to draw a tag. However, I could not have applied for the expo tag I drew at all as I was in the elk pool. So while my chances were extremely low, they were not zero like they’d be in the general draw.

But I’m fine with the odds going back to zero for the species I can’t apply for and no longer having the extra opportunity to apply for tags by putting them all back in public draw.

Fair enough that you didn't read the whole thing, it was long, so I'll stick to just the final point

Your improvement in odds resulted in a reduction in odds for the person applying for that tag in the LE draw.

Likewise, the tag you were pursuing in the LE draw experienced reduced odds as well if that unit offered tags at the Expo.

The odds always even out unless the number of applicants or prizes changes. We can't know on applicant crossover, though it's likely high, but we know the number of prizes is unchanged. Thus the odds remain the same in the end.

It's impossible to alter odds without changing the number of applicants or prizes. Everything after that is just a fallacy that makes us feel good... and can be fun!

 

[slamdunk]

Even that's up for debate on semantics. Here's an example...

Say every attendee at the MDF Banquet is given one ticket to be entered into a drawing for a rifle... that's part of the package they are given with dinner.

However, next year MDF decides to give every attendee two tickets (or ten or any other number); the odds didn't actually change though the attendees feel like it did because of a false sense of hope that their "additional" tickets improved their odds.

Just because I now have additional tickets stubs at my table to check when the winning number is called out, I didn't actually have improved odds (even though I arguably had more "opportunity") because everybody else got the same additional tickets that I did. For there to be additional "opportunities" there would have to be an increase in the number of prizes. But with Expo tags, there aren't additional prizes (tags)... they're just moved from one place to another that we have to pay extra money to have a chance at drawing.

For every spouse or visitor that throws their name in the hat at the Expo, that wouldn't be in the normal draw, that's actually a reduced chance at drawing than if the tag was left in the regular LE draw. (Clearly there's much crossover in applicants and we can't possibly know the true odds for each tag, but the statistical rule applies.)

To continue, my application for a San Juan elk tag at the Expo is undoubtedly decreasing the odds of somebody who is pursuing that tag in the LE draw because they're competing against me for the Expo SJ Elk tag that they wouldn't have to do in the LE draw if the tag weren't taken and given to the Expo.

Just the same, I'd rather the deer tag I try to draw in the LE draw were left in that drawing to go to somebody I'm competing against for that one specific tag (or to a max point holder) to slow point creep and get me closer to drawing the tag I'm pursuing.

Statistically speaking, for every opportunity I get to draw another tag, it's a reduction taken from the regular LE drawing. But that knife cuts both ways. I get increased odds at some tags, but there's a reduction in the odds of others.

There's no free lunch in statistics! Unless we're changing the number of entries (applicants) or prizes (tags) all we're doing is giving people the illusion of increased odds.

PS. Bonus Point systems don't "improve" odds either, all they do is make it statistically more likely that everybody gets one tag before any one individual gets multiple tags... they even out odds, but they don't improve them.

Overall odds are always tags divided by applicants. If 100 people apply for 1 tag, the odds are always 1% in the end... regardless of the "point" system used. Ultimately 1/100 will be successful and 99/100 will be unsuccessful... the guy with his name in the hat multiple times may improve his individual odds, but there's an equal reduction in odds for everybody else. The final result will always be 1/100.

It's the same with Expo v. DWR draws. We may feel like we're getting additional "opportunities" but the math always evens back out... especially with all the crossover of applicants.

The tag numbers are set regardless of which group runs the drawing, the variable is who the applicants are, which we don't know the crossover. Assuming it is high, which I think we all agree it is, then the ultimate odds are unchanged.

If you, as an individual, apply in the LE draw, but not the Expo, your odds in the LE draw are reduced by the Expo. If you, as an individual, apply at the Expo, but not the LE draw, then your odds are improved by the Expo.

Overall, especially for those that apply in both the regular draw and the Expo draw... the idea that you get "additional opportunity" is very much up for debate as there's an equal reduction elsewhere.

I can agree with this.

 

[grizzly]

I can agree with this.

I thought of an exception for you...

I can apply for Desert Bighorn at the Expo that I can't in the LE draw because I already drew it. Therefore, that's truly an additional opportunity for me.

(Admittedly, that's a reduction for somebody else, but at least I have another chance at a sheep tag... And I'll definitely take it )

PS. I'll freely admit, I enjoy the Expo. It's well-run and I get to visit with friends that I only see a few times a year. My dad's ram will be on display there this year too, so I'll be there to see it. I'm certain I'm blackballed because of my SFW criticism and will never draw tag, but I still throw my name in the hat, much like I buy the occasional Powerball ticket even though the odds are horrific. It's still fun to dream!

PPS. I've done the math and I'd be statistically more likely to get a tag to put an equal amount of money as I've spent on $5 applications on the roulette table and try and win the money and buy the tag at auction. I'd literally have better odds than putting in at the Expo... but I do it anyway because we all think we'll beat the odds next time.

 

[elkassassin]

Hey Niller!

You Might As Well Apply As bobcatbessy From Here On Out!

Our Odds Are Identical Now!

 

[elkassassin]

I thought of an exception for you...

I can apply for Desert Bighorn at the Expo that I can't in the LE draw because I already drew it. Therefore, that's truly an additional opportunity for me.

(Admittedly, that's a reduction for somebody else, but at least I have another chance at a sheep tag... And I'll definitely take it )

PS. I'll freely admit, I enjoy the Expo. It's well-run and I get to visit with friends that I only see a few times a year. My dad's ram will be on display there this year too, so I'll be there to see it. I'm certain I'm blackballed because of my SFW criticism and will never draw tag, but I still throw my name in the hat, much like I buy the occasional Powerball ticket even though the odds are horrific. It's still fun to dream!

PPS. I've done the math and I'd be statistically more likely to get a tag to put an equal amount of money as I've spent on $5 applications on the roulette table and try and win the money and buy the tag at auction. I'd literally have better odds than putting in at the Expo... but I do it anyway because we all think we'll beat the odds next time. And It Is The Only LEGAL Gambling DRATS Can Do In DRATville!

 

[cantkillathing]

Bess, and Vanilla, if I come up to the expo this year which one of you is going to buy me a mountain dew, Bess already got me one, so Vanilla it might have to be you.

 

[Vanilla]

Bess, and Vanilla, if I come up to the expo this year which one of you is going to buy me a mountain dew, Bess already got me one, so Vanilla it might have to be you.

You’ll have to meet me outside the expo, but I got you!

 

[cantkillathing]

You’ll have to meet me outside the expo, but I got you!

Thats usually as far as I go as well, its usually full of too much testosterone and ego that I usually if I make it up spend a few on draw, I have attended the sheep banquet once and might try that again, maybe I can convince you to go to it.

 

[elkassassin]

I've Got you Covered cant!

I Just Don't Know If They Should Let You Enter The Draw After All The tags You Guys Pulled Last Year!

I Heard That PEAYDAY Will Be Inside!

You Gonna Help Me Drag Niller In There So We Can See Him Have One More Chat With PEAYDAY?

Bess, and Vanilla, if I come up to the expo this year which one of you is going to buy me a mountain dew, Bess already got me one, so Vanilla it might have to be you.

 

[slamdunk]

You guys are killing me, can't we just get a table in the back as MM friends and shake hands to a hopeful future?
That's my proposal, even if it's in the foyer.

 

[johnnycake]

You guys are killing me, can't we just get a table in the back as MM friends and shake hands to a hopeful future?
That's my proposal, even if it's in the foyer.

Sure, once there's actually a fair, legal, and transparent process used to award the tag contract and every single penny is fully accounted for and tracked from payment to conservation action on the ground.

 

[Simpleton]

Late to the party here, and this is more geared toward the auction tags, but the numbers below tell me we could eliminate them and get the tags back to the general public. Not one person I have talked to would stop applying if the cost of applying increased by $20/app.

Conservation (Auction Tag) Revenue
$7,669,575

Money Left
$6,902,617.50
Revenue Minus 10% admin cost for groups

Species/# of Applicants R and NR (rounded down)

LE DEER
51000

LE ELK
63000

LE ANT
14000

Bison
22000

DES SHEEP
20000

MTN GOAT
16000

Moose
33000

MTN Sheep
19000

GEN DEER
113000

Dedicated Deer
6000

Total
357000

$ App Increase
$19.34

App increase of $20 would generate more revenue to the state than the auction tags. Yes, I know that would go in a general fund and not directly to conservation projects (but based on the results of the past 20 or so years, I am not sure the money isn't better spent on more officers, biologists, etc).

Extra plus, there would statistically be more common people with those tags than guys with bottomless pockets. Immediately, most of the issues with guides, helicopters, and such would be limited drastically.

 

[SS!]

I don’t drink soda but I’ll buy you guys ice cream. Before or after the boxing match, your choice!

 

[MrShane]

Bess, and Vanilla, if I come up to the expo this year which one of you is going to buy me a mountain dew, Bess already got me one, so Vanilla it might have to be you.

If you don’t go I will buy you a six pack!

 

[hossblur]

Unfortunately I don't own any mtn ops or HUSH gear, so I'm afraid I'll miss this.

But THIS is the issue.

They use the lotto tickets to pack the place. The DON and crew then walk around hand holding legislators and the like showing them how unbelievably popular they are because the place is packed. Guys showing up and being there whether they attend or not, perpetuate the narrative that we all support $fw and the whoring if tags.

You think the DON tells the governor that the vast majority of folks don't support $fw and are only there for tags?

Go look at $fw webpage, that's what they tell the legislature, gov, mayors, etc.,

That's why the majority of legislators get swayed by the DON, on paper and video, the whole state supports them.

You can't be anti those tags, and show up for them.

That's just akin to California sober.

 

[elkassassin]

We Need To Get A Picture Of You Hossy At The EXPO!

 

[hossblur]

It's been a GREAT YEAR.

Had family come from out of state for a tournament at salt palace in Mar.

Met them for a few beers on night.

That's the only time I've been in SLC, or the surrounding hoods all year. Here's hoping next year only gets better

 

[BradA]

Expo. No real interest in sheep show. I’ve killed my slam of sheep now I’m after another slam.

If I go we will have to meet up.

 

[3point]

I'll give you that there is CURRENTLY a huge difference in the dollars raised, I would also have you look at how many tags Utah has given up over the last ten years compared to Wyoming. Wyoming is hundreds, Utah is Thousands.
That's why i said we need to do the Supertag system on a bigger scale and do monthly drawings so that the money raised is similar to what is currently raised. and all the while we are returning the majority of tags back in the public draw.

Saying you don't have to attend the Expo to validate is semantics.

Tell me it's a fair system to put the Expo in Downtown SLC. Tell me it's fair for the people of Blanding or Vernal or St George.

Myself, I have to drive 3 hours to be able to apply for a public permit. If it really isn't about attending the Expo, why not let people Validate online like during Covid? and I'll say it again, those years they made more money on those tags than the other years. Why? because EVERYONE could apply. Not just the ones who live close enough or could get time off of work or the ones who could afford to spend $100 just to get there.
So ya, currently we are required to attend the Expo in SLC even if we don't go see the flat brim fancy jeans love fest inside.

I really wish I was lawyer; I can't imagine hijacking these tags would pass muster if it was challenged in court.

And, our wildlife is bringing in millions of dollars to Downtown SLC where the vast majority of people would love to see hunting stopped.

I’m legally blind, can’t drive and I’m required to validate in person and I live two hours away.

 

[OneMile]

If SFW and MDF are truly corrupt, why don't you blast some kind of Batman signal into the air and bring in all the goblins that don't seem to want to hear facts or can't provide a decent rebuttal beyond a teenager level.

I'm with you if these organizations are corrupted, but you are not convincing to inquiring minds. Not sure if this is legal, but you could all gather together, constipate their booths and challenge them with facts. It's basic subversion. Until then, Slamdunk and a few others seem to have the prevailing voice of reason.

I didn't know this was actually a thing until I took a look at these expo threads. I'm like many others who enjoy going to see what's new in hunting and buying a product once in a while that will enhance my hunting. Saying you don't like to hear someone say something because you don't like it, doesn't help your cause.

You guys could join one of these groups as a volunteer and maybe get the inside scoop. Use the gross amount of back-and-forth time on MM and infiltrate your arch enemy and learn the truth.

 

[hossblur]

If SFW and MDF are truly corrupt, why don't you blast some kind of Batman signal into the air and bring in all the goblins that don't seem to want to hear facts or can't provide a decent rebuttal beyond a teenager level.

I'm with you if these organizations are corrupted, but you are not convincing to inquiring minds. Not sure if this is legal, but you could all gather together, constipate their booths and challenge them with facts. It's basic subversion. Until then, Slamdunk and a few others seem to have the prevailing voice of reason.

I didn't know this was actually a thing until I took a look at these expo threads. I'm like many others who enjoy going to see what's new in hunting and buying a product once in a while that will enhance my hunting. Saying you don't like to hear someone say something because you don't like it, doesn't help your cause.

You guys could join one of these groups as a volunteer and maybe get the inside scoop. Use the gross amount of back-and-forth time on MM and infiltrate your arch enemy and learn the truth.

So your plan is to add even more guys to their attendance figures they use to show how accepted their show is?

Great plan.

Now maybe we could really show them, spend a few hundred on their lotto, then win the tag and laugh in their face.

I wish I'd have thought of such a diabolical plan

 

[Vanilla]

Now maybe we could really show them, spend a few hundred on their lotto, then win the tag and laugh in their face.

That’s my plan! (Again)

(Except for the few hundred part. I’m more of a $40-$50 type)

 

[OneMile]

So your plan is to add even more guys to their attendance figures they use to show how accepted their show is?

Great plan.

Now maybe we could really show them, spend a few hundred on their lotto, then win the tag and laugh in their face.

I wish I'd have thought of such a diabolical plan

You are so cute. Don't forget, I'll get that beer for you.

 

[tylercreek2]

" Its just a discussion" is precisely what my wife tells me

 

[OneMile]

It is so funny how ridiculous these conversations get. It literally makes me laugh to myself. Thanks for the diversion from real life. Thanks to the minds of reasonable people on these expo threads. You're better men than I, Lol.