Conservation Tag Conspiracy

[slamdunk]

This is for @Vanilla @SS! and or for anyone else questioning Utah's Conservation tags and that they should be given back to the general draw.

SS....where's the data you have proving Conservation is a hoax?
In the meantime, I'll make due on my end of the deal and put my money where my mouth is.
I'm still waiting on yours.....

I'd have to say there is quite a substantial gain between those less than 3% of tags generating $7.7m versus $52k had they stayed in the general draw.

Now keep in mind that MDF guarantees and is audited that .89 of every dollar raised goes to Conservation, i can't speak for SFW, RMEF etc, etc.

Even at an average of .89 of $7.7m, that is a heck of a lot more than $52k no matter how you try to discredit it.
Maybe SS can post how much RMEF puts back in?
I can assure you they don't put much money into Utah, not even close to some others that are much smaller organizations.
I can post that information as well if needed.

I can provide a breakdown of each organization as well, but this in a nutshell speaks enough volume of why Utah does this program and why other federal entities are also getting on board with us.

 

[Vanilla]

This is for @Vanilla @SS! and or for anyone else questioning Utah's Conservation tags and that they should be given back to the general draw.

Slam, nothing in this post is news to me. Conservation tags are different than expo tags, but as you can see, combine the two and you have over 500 of our most coveted tags the state had to offer taken from the public. Which big game species that we are handing away is in a better place today than in 2001 when the program began? (I believe there are some, but would be interested in the discussion.)

I know MDF is much more open about its activities than SFW. It’s why SFW catches 95% of my ire on this topic.

Regardless, I 100% believe these tags should be in the public draw. Any auctioned tags should be done by the state and 100% retained by the state. How much cheatgrass could be treated with $8m? Plus the extra $15m from the expo application process…that’s a lot of “administrative” costs. Like I said before, it’s good work if you can get it.

 

[slamdunk]

Slam, nothing in this post is news to me. Conservation tags are different than expo tags, but as you can see, combine the two and you have over 500 of our most coveted tags the state had to offer taken from the public. Which big game species that we are handing away is in a better place today than in 2001 when the program began? (I believe there are some, but would be interested in the discussion.)

I know MDF is much more open about its activities than SFW. It’s why SFW catches 95% of my ire on this topic.

Regardless, I 100% believe these tags should be in the public draw. Any auctioned tags should be done by the state and 100% retained by the state. How much cheatgrass could be treated with $8m? Plus the extra $15m from the expo application process…that’s a lot of “administrative” costs. Like I said before, it’s good work if you can get it.

I understand your points with much respect, and that would be ideal.

But in the real world, our DWR aren't staffed enough to have a single officer on every unit, where could they get manpower to do what the Expo does or even a fraction of it?

They simply cannot afford it, therefore they basically subcontract it out (for lack of better terms) and generate millions of more dollars than they themselves could ever do.

 

[SS!]

Slam, nothing in this post is news to me. Conservation tags are different than expo tags, but as you can see, combine the two and you have over 500 of our most coveted tags the state had to offer taken from the public. Which big game species that we are handing away is in a better place today than in 2001 when the program began? (I believe there are some, but would be interested in the discussion.)

I know MDF is much more open about its activities than SFW. It’s why SFW catches 95% of my ire on this topic.

Regardless, I 100% believe these tags should be in the public draw. Any auctioned tags should be done by the state and 100% retained by the state. How much cheatgrass could be treated with $8m? Plus the extra $15m from the expo application process…that’s a lot of “administrative” costs. Like I said before, it’s good work if you can get it.

Agree! I’m not sure what the hell @slamdunk is drinking. I think those supplements he pitches are screwing up his think tank

 

[SS!]

Oh joy ANOTHER thread started by Slamdunk. Good grief

 

[notdonhunting]

Oh joy ANOTHER thread started by Slamdunk. Good grief

Would you just get off of the Utah thread, you are really getting obnoxious.
Good grief.

 

[SS!]

This is for @Vanilla @SS! and or for anyone else questioning Utah's Conservation tags and that they should be given back to the general draw.

SS....where's the data you have proving Conservation is a hoax?
In the meantime, I'll make due on my end of the deal and put my money where my mouth is.
I'm still waiting on yours.....

I'd have to say there is quite a substantial gain between those less than 3% of tags generating $7.7m versus $52k had they stayed in the general draw.

Now keep in mind that MDF guarantees and is audited that .89 of every dollar raised goes to Conservation, i can't speak for SFW, RMEF etc, etc.

Even at an average of .89 of $7.7m, that is a heck of a lot more than $52k no matter how you try to discredit it.
Maybe SS can post how much RMEF puts back in?
I can assure you they don't put much money into Utah, not even close to some others that are much smaller organizations.
I can post that information as well if needed.

View attachment 129977

I can provide a breakdown of each organization as well, but this in a nutshell speaks enough volume of why Utah does this program and why other federal entities are also getting on board with us.

I don’t recall asking for any of this. Can you provide a post where I did? Of course not.

One thing is for sure, you seem to be fixated on $$$$ equals conservation success. But I look at success in increased ungulate numbers and increased hunting opportunities. Neither of which has the MDF been able to produce in 35 years.

So congrats?

Now go start another thread

 

[SS!]

Would you just get off of the Utah thread, you are really getting obnoxious.
Good grief.

I was tagged in this one by slamADHDunk. Not sure why because he’s providing info I don’t care about but yeah. No ones ever said he’s smart!

 

[elkantlers]

I would much rather see a system like Wyoming's Super tags where everyone has a chance to get the tag rather than only the Richest of the rich.

"The Wyoming Super Tag raffle raised $1.87 million for conservation in 2023. The Wyoming Game and Fish Department's program saw another record-breaking round of ticket sales, bolstered by hunters vying for 11 chances to get a license for the state's premier big and trophy game"

That is $170,000 per animal.

It doesn't seem too far-fetched to think that Utah could get the same $7.7 Million on far fewer tags than we are asked to give up currently.
During the Covid years of the expo, there was more money made on the tags than on the normal years. Why? because people around the state didn't have to travel hundreds of miles, spend money on fuel and food, and take time off of work to attend a stupid expo just so they have a chance at a public permit. They spent that money on more $10 chances.

If people were able to buy a chance at 4 premo ( D, E, A, OIL ) tags per month, at $10 per species, I would bet that more money could be raised than the 7.7M currently and with a 1/10th the permits taken from the public draw.

I really wish we could look at how inefficient it is to pay these organizations to take our permits and money.

 

[SS!]

I would much rather see a system like Wyoming's Super tags where everyone has a chance to get the tag rather than only the Richest of the rich.

"The Wyoming Super Tag raffle raised $1.87 million for conservation in 2023. The Wyoming Game and Fish Department's program saw another record-breaking round of ticket sales, bolstered by hunters vying for 11 chances to get a license for the state's premier big and trophy game"

That is $170,000 per animal.

It doesn't seem too far-fetched to think that Utah could get the same $7.7 Million on far fewer tags than we are asked to give up currently.
During the Covid years of the expo, there was more money made on the tags than on the normal years. Why? because people around the state didn't have to travel hundreds of miles, spend money on fuel and food, and take time off of work to attend a stupid expo just so they have a chance at a public permit. They spent that money on more $10 chances.

If people were able to buy a chance at 4 premo ( D, E, A, OIL ) tags per month, at $10 per species, I would bet that more money could be raised than the 7.7M currently and with a 1/10th the permits taken from the public draw.

I really wish we could look at how inefficient it is to pay these organizations to take our permits and money.

 

[slamdunk]

Agree! I’m not sure what the hell @slamdunk is drinking. I think those supplements he pitches are screwing up his think tank

Is that the best you can do, really?
No surprise, you never have anything but baseless spew.

What more do you need to see AK?
Where's your fact sheets, I'm still waiting?
Can you even show a Cabelas receipt where you rounded up .49 for conservation?

Need me to post what each CO raises and spends?
You might be surprised who's at the bottom of that list......

 

[slamdunk]

@elkantlers
I think that Super raffle is a neat deal and perhaps something Utah could also do as supplemental?

Huge difference though in Wyoming's $11m raised in 10 years versus over $7m annually in Utah.

And a minute correction to your statement, no one has to "attend a stupid Expo" but they are required to validate in person at no cost or obligation to the Expo.
Nor do all 35k people who attend the annual Expo even apply for those tags.

 

[elkassassin]

The Only LEGAL Gambling We Have!

DRATS Are Gonna Participate!

 

[Vanilla]

Huge difference though in Wyoming's $11m raised in 10 years versus over $7m annually in Utah.

Slam, interesting that you point this out, because the thing that really brought this discussion up was the difference in how much money the state could have for conservation on RMEF’s proposal vs what they accepted on the expo application fees. Remember? That was actually the info you set out to track down.

So top dollar isn’t the priority here, clearly. We can’t suggest that in the case or MDF/SFW wouldn’t have an expo at all anymore.

 

[slamdunk]

@Vanilla
Yes, I can agree with that.

My point here is to SS and how he praises one over the other for what they do, but I can show him what they do not, here in Utah.

His comments are obviously aimed at baseless attempts at discrediting me personally, not necessarily the organization of my belonging.

 

[slamdunk]

@Vanilla
Honest question and respectfully asking for your input.

Have you seen the RMEF business proposal they submitted?

I know they are a good solid organization, I don't doubt that and I am a member.

My question is if they were offering 100% return to Utah's conservation, were they planning on running a major 4 day event for free or at their own expense?
I can't imagine the SLC convention center would be very cheap, nor would professional entertainment, auctioneers, and literally hundreds of staff.

Or....was their guarantee just based on the full return coming from the 200 tags?

 

[elkantlers]

@elkantlers
I think that Super raffle is a neat deal and perhaps something Utah could also do as supplemental?

Huge difference though in Wyoming's $11m raised in 10 years versus over $7m annually in Utah.

And a minute correction to your statement, no one has to "attend a stupid Expo" but they are required to validate in person at no cost or obligation to the Expo.
Nor do all 35k people who attend the annual Expo even apply for those tags.

I'll give you that there is CURRENTLY a huge difference in the dollars raised, I would also have you look at how many tags Utah has given up over the last ten years compared to Wyoming. Wyoming is hundreds, Utah is Thousands.
That's why i said we need to do the Supertag system on a bigger scale and do monthly drawings so that the money raised is similar to what is currently raised. and all the while we are returning the majority of tags back in the public draw.

Saying you don't have to attend the Expo to validate is semantics.

Tell me it's a fair system to put the Expo in Downtown SLC. Tell me it's fair for the people of Blanding or Vernal or St George.

Myself, I have to drive 3 hours to be able to apply for a public permit. If it really isn't about attending the Expo, why not let people Validate online like during Covid? and I'll say it again, those years they made more money on those tags than the other years. Why? because EVERYONE could apply. Not just the ones who live close enough or could get time off of work or the ones who could afford to spend $100 just to get there.
So ya, currently we are required to attend the Expo in SLC even if we don't go see the flat brim fancy jeans love fest inside.

I really wish I was lawyer; I can't imagine hijacking these tags would pass muster if it was challenged in court.

And, our wildlife is bringing in millions of dollars to Downtown SLC where the vast majority of people would love to see hunting stopped.

 

[SS!]

@Vanilla
Yes, I can agree with that.

My point here is to SS and how he praises one over the other for what they do, but I can show him what they do not, here in Utah.

His comments are obviously aimed at baseless attempts at discrediting me personally, not necessarily the organization of my belonging.

Why did you start another thread? Because you didn’t like all the information posted contrary to YOUR beliefs. If this thread doesn’t go the way you like it BLAAAAM another thread begins.

I don’t have to discredit you personally. You do an amazing job at doing that yourself. You believe young bucks breeding is just fine, that conservation success is based on $$$$ raised,that SFW expo RFP process was fair and the MDF can do no wrong. You’re closed minded and easily offended if someone posts something contrary to your beliefs.

You said you started this thread for me. I know with the WAR going on in Utah a MDF soldier like you is busy. Even though it was not solicited THANK YOU.

I hope one day you will see it’s not important how much money you raise but what you do with it. That at some point you need to have tangible results when you’re a conservation organization. What have we got in 35 years of the MDF? Record low mule deer numbers and a competing mule deer focused organization due to poor performance by the MDF.

Lastly It’s obvious I hurt your feelings. I know you’re a MDF/SFW puppet and I exploit it at times. I’ll try to get better about it. I’m sorry.

 

[Vanilla]

Slam, it has been a long time since I read all that, but yes, I did read it. If I remember correctly, RMEF was planning to bring this show to Utah for the convention to handle the 200 expo tags:

Home

RMEF is the premiere big game conservation organization in the United States.

stg.rmef.org

So yeah, the "60,000" visitors we get at our hunt expo looks a little bit silly compared to this, doesn't it? They haven't even needed the lure of 200 premium tags to bring in the numbers they do. Imagine if they brought this crowd to a place where people could get a chance at tags what those numbers would be. And 100% of the $5 app was going to conservation, not just the partial cut the two orgs are currently giving. That was another reason the whole process was a complete sham.

There is simply no justification for the biased and unethical dog and pony show the expo contract process was. That falls 100% on the state for not only allowing it to happen, but facilitating it. SFW and MDF are the large beneficiaries of being able to sip off the public teet for another decade. I'm sure RMEF learned its lesson and won't even challenge for the next one, so you'll see it continue just like it is. This will always be a burr in my saddle because it was so wholly unethical and likely illegal. I think so many of us that even hate what the expo has done with those tags have forgotten how unbelievably rotten that process and award was.

Thanks for another gift that keeps on giving, Wildlife Board!

 

[Bux n Dux]

Oh joy ANOTHER thread started by Slamdunk. Good grief

How do we keep getting so lucky?

He really likes to hear himself talk.

 

[llamapacker]

We all know that the Expo tags are nothing but welfare to keep SFW / MDF in business. The state turned down a more lucrative offer from RMEF several years ago to market these tags.

And as shown above, other states like WY, WA, etc., hold a raffle and make much more money per tag than MDF / SFW. Utah could easily replace the $7M / year by raffling far fewer tags. If MDF / SFW didn't keep $0.11 of every dollar spent on these tags they would be broke very soon.

Slam wants to compare how much money MDF contributes versus RMEF but then wants to count the money they get selling STATE tags. Remove the revenue these tags generate, and you will find RMEF and many other organizations contribute far more to Utah.

The original purpose of the Expo tags was to increase tourism and help establish the EXPO. They have outlived that purpose. People will come to hunting conventions without these tags (Hint: DSC, SCI, Harrisburg, etc.). The only reason to continue with these tags is to provide welfare to MDF / SFW. They sell a state resource for less per tag than any other state, and keep a percentage. I would call it a good business model if you can get it, but in reality it is simple theft.

Bill

 

[SS!]

I'll give you that there is CURRENTLY a huge difference in the dollars raised, I would also have you look at how many tags Utah has given up over the last ten years compared to Wyoming. Wyoming is hundreds, Utah is Thousands.
That's why i said we need to do the Supertag system on a bigger scale and do monthly drawings so that the money raised is similar to what is currently raised. and all the while we are returning the majority of tags back in the public draw.

Saying you don't have to attend the Expo to validate is semantics.

Tell me it's a fair system to put the Expo in Downtown SLC. Tell me it's fair for the people of Blanding or Vernal or St George.

Myself, I have to drive 3 hours to be able to apply for a public permit. If it really isn't about attending the Expo, why not let people Validate online like during Covid? and I'll say it again, those years they made more money on those tags than the other years. Why? because EVERYONE could apply. Not just the ones who live close enough or could get time off of work or the ones who could afford to spend $100 just to get there.
So ya, currently we are required to attend the Expo in SLC even if we don't go see the flat brim fancy jeans love feast inside.

I really wish I was lawyer; I can't imagine hijacking these tags would pass muster if it was challenged in court.

And, our wildlife is bringing in millions of dollars to Downtown SLC where the vast majority of people would love to see hunting stopped.

I like it. Great ideas!

 

[SS!]

We all know that the Expo tags are nothing but welfare to keep SFW / MDF in business. The state turned down a more lucrative offer from RMEF several years ago to market these tags.

And as shown above, other states like WY, WA, etc., hold a raffle and make much more money per tag than MDF / SFW. Utah could easily replace the $7M / year by raffling far fewer tags. If MDF / SFW didn't keep $0.11 of every dollar spent on these tags they would be broke very soon.

Slam wants to compare how much money MDF contributes versus RMEF but then wants to count the money they get selling STATE tags. Remove the revenue these tags generate, and you will find RMEF and many other organizations contribute far more to Utah.

The original purpose of the Expo tags was to increase tourism and help establish the EXPO. They have outlived that purpose. People will come to hunting conventions without these tags (Hint: DSC, SCI, Harrisburg, etc.). The only reason to continue with these tags is to provide welfare to MDF / SFW. They sell a state resource for less per tag than any other state, and keep a percentage. I would call it a good business model if you can get it, but in reality it is simple theft.

Bill

That’s a great point that the tags are likely no longer needed to get people to show up. Thanks for taking the time to reply.

 

[elkantlers]

That’s a great point that the tags are likely no longer needed to get people to show up. Thanks for taking the time to reply.

Public permits should never be used to get people to attend some hunting show. If someone wants the latest Douchecrazy hat they can knock thereselves out.
But don't use public property to strong-arm the public to attend.
If the Western Hunting Expo can't stand on its own, then maybe it time for it to die.

 

[slamdunk]

How do we keep getting so lucky?

He really likes to hear himself talk.

The two misfits riding on the same pony....."power couple"

Who is on this topic with absolutely nothing to add?
The two clowns

 

[slamdunk]

Public permits should never be used to get people to attend some hunting show. If someone wants the latest Douchecrazy hat they can knock thereselves out.
But don't use public property to strong-arm the public to attend.
If the Western Hunting Expo can't stand on its own, then maybe it time for it to die.

As I stated to Vanilla....I'd be fine if those 3% of tags went back in to the big pool, but I'd realize I just lost additional opportunities to draw tags that I wouldn't have without it.

I do not believe the Expo "needs" these tags to survive, but I can assure you the state loves the millions versus thousands.

 

[gundog2]

Another issue with the Utah Conservation Tag program is that it forces the state to manage a large number of hunts as high quality trophy hunts. That doesn’t sound bad on the surface, but I think many people would agree that it has created dome ugly situations.

 

[Vanilla]

I do not believe the Expo "needs" these tags to survive, but I can assure you the state loves the millions versus thousands.

And the two organizations love the millions versus the thousands as well! The state would be fine either way. I think it's a legitimate question whether either of those organizations would be able to survive without the welfare tag handouts. Remember the topic that brought this up in the first place: "administrative costs."

It's really too bad that the state allowed this to go down the way it did. I would advocate for the expo tags going back to where they should be in the public draw regardless, but at least it could be celebrated as a win for wildlife and the state. Right now it's just a sour taste left behind as shady deals get forgotten and some make out like bandits in the process.

 

[SS!]

I do not believe the Expo "needs" these tags to survive, but I can assure you the state loves the millions versus thousands.

Now you’re worried about not only mule deer, cheatgrass and now the state too?

Slamdunk for governor!

 

[MrShane]

Well, with the title of this thread, at least it is finally admitted that these tags are a sham.
Shout it out loud!

 

[SS!]

@elkantlers
I think that Super raffle is a neat deal and perhaps something Utah could also do as supplemental?

Look out boys he’s open to additional tags. “Supplemental”. Oh the irony. It’s never enough for you conservation guys.

 

[Vanilla]

With as much of the resource as we already give the "conservation" organizations, there really should not be a supplemental need.

That is for DAMNNNNNN sure!

 

[Bux n Dux]

The two misfits riding on the same pony....."power couple"

Who is on this topic with absolutely nothing to add?
The two clowns

Have you looked in the mirror recently? Let’s hear more about the CVA owner calling you! That was a great story

 

[slamdunk]

With as much of the resource as we already give the "conservation" organizations, there really should not be a supplemental need.

That is for DAMNNNNNN sure!

There are all kinds of supplemental resources, not just Expo.

Are we still wanting to believe conservation is a scam even with two governmental agency partnerships adding an additional $65m?

Its easy for me to see and believe.

On a side note and through all the bickering, not one single person has posted a readable fact discrediting the Expo or any Conservation act, entity or event.
Hearsay means absolutely nothing.

 

[slamdunk]

Have you looked in the mirror recently? Let’s hear more about the CVA owner calling you! That was a great story

Lol.....that's all you've got, is an uneducated guess?
Crawl back in your cave dude and try finding some better material

Doesn't the born again sheriff have something better to do?

 

[Vanilla]

On a side note and through all the bickering, not one single person has posted a readable fact discrediting the Expo or any Conservation act, entity or event.
Hearsay means absolutely nothing.

Slam, you're either lying to yourself on this or you just don't want to know.

There has been plenty over the years. I don't need to re-hash it. This is one of the very few discussion topics that will raise my blood pressure.

 

[slamdunk]

Well, with the title of this thread, at least it is finally admitted that these tags are a sham.
Shout it out loud!

No Sir, I titled it "Conspiracy" because that is exactly the theory.
A "Conspiracy theory" with zero merit by those claimants.

 

[Bux n Dux]

Lol.....that's all you've got, is an uneducated guess?
Crawl back in your cave dude and try finding some better material

Doesn't the born again sheriff have something better to do?

Uneducated guess? There’s a whole thread you started in effort to feel important. Talk about desperation!

 

[slamdunk]

Slam, you're either lying to yourself on this or you just don't want to know.

There has been plenty over the years. I don't need to re-hash it. This is one of the very few discussion topics that will raise my blood pressure.

If there's "been plenty", it should be as easy to obtain and share, just like it is for me posting numerous times visible documents proving where the money comes from and where it goes, yet no one can share one shred of tangible evidence on the opposing side.

Ok, I'll agree to disagree and move forward.....stalemate

 

[rockymtnhunter]

The two misfits riding on the same pony....."power couple"

Who is on this topic with absolutely nothing to add?
The two clowns

L

 

[elkantlers]

@slamdunk I'm all for these organizations running on donations from their members. But if they are truly for mule deer and habitat then 100% of money raised from peddling public tags should be returned to the state for projects.

I don't think 600k in compensation, taken from money made from public permits, for their operating people is justifiable.

 

[grizzly]

On a side note and through all the bickering, not one single person has posted a readable fact discrediting the Expo or any Conservation act, entity or event.

Um, yeah, it was called a Justification Statement. It fully discredited the Expo contract award process.

 

[Vanilla]

If there's "been plenty", it should be as easy to obtain and share,

You were here for all this, Slam!

Debunking the DWR?s Frequently Asked Questions Re: Utah Expo Permits and Conservation Funding | General Hunting

Debunking the DWR?s Frequently Asked Questions Re: Utah Expo Permits and Conservation Funding As most of you know, the DWR has taken a great deal of criticism over the last several months regarding it handling of the Expo Tag program and its decision to award the next five-year contract to SFW...

www.monstermuleys.info

Part 2 - Debunking the DWR?s Frequently Asked Questions Re: Utah Expo Permits and Conservation Funding | General Hunting

Part 2 - Debunking the DWR?s Frequently Asked Questions Re: Utah Expo Permits and Conservation Funding Due to the size of the initial thread on this topic, I am starting a second thread with FAQ #13. I would personally like to watch the initial thread approach 1,000 posts but it is already...

www.monstermuleys.info

This will give you some reading material.

 

[Horsecorn]

Slam you know my feeling on all them auction tags. it’s turned hunting in utah into a sh-t show.

 

[slamdunk]

Slam you know my feeling on all them auction tags. it’s turned hunting in utah into a sh-t show.

I will not argue that........

 

[hossblur]

@Vanilla
Honest question and respectfully asking for your input.

Have you seen the RMEF business proposal they submitted?

I know they are a good solid organization, I don't doubt that and I am a member.

My question is if they were offering 100% return to Utah's conservation, were they planning on running a major 4 day event for free or at their own expense?
I can't imagine the SLC convention center would be very cheap, nor would professional entertainment, auctioneers, and literally hundreds of staff.

Or....was their guarantee just based on the full return coming from the 200 tags?

Can you honestly say $fw/MDF are paying the bill?

The DWR mans the lotto booth, paid by all of us. Utah elevated kicks in money. The city and county do as well.

Also. Are you saying that unless they are paid, MDF/$fw volunteers wouldn't volunteer if the state kept the proceeds?

Like Vanilla, I walk a wide circle because MDF is transparent, but would YOU not volunteer for projects if MDF didn't get paid?

 

[SS!]

I will not argue that........

 

[wstrntines]

Let’s just make the tags only eligible to residents of the state they are pulled from in the expo draw. Get rid of the entertainment and the auction tags. Let’s make outfitting legal only on private land and increase the amount of public tag allocations 10x on CWMU’s. See we’ve created a small supply and a huge demand for auction tags for the outfitting industry on private land.

 

[hossblur]

Also @slamdunk

In the 4 days of the expo, how many are devoted to raising money?

Why are WE paying for 3.5 days of a hunting convention?

The auction takes a few hours.

How does deer in Utah benifit from Kings camo booth for 4 days?

The tags sell themselves. The lotto can be done online.

The rest is a convention. If it can survive on its own, great

 

[fullcry]

One thing that is certain.
All the western states and Canada have taken notice of what Utah has done.
After seeing how much tags went up in the auctions last year you can bet even more tags will be up for sale at the 2024 banquets.

 

[Hawkeye]

You were here for all this, Slam!

Debunking the DWR?s Frequently Asked Questions Re: Utah Expo Permits and Conservation Funding | General Hunting

Debunking the DWR?s Frequently Asked Questions Re: Utah Expo Permits and Conservation Funding As most of you know, the DWR has taken a great deal of criticism over the last several months regarding it handling of the Expo Tag program and its decision to award the next five-year contract to SFW...

www.monstermuleys.info

Part 2 - Debunking the DWR?s Frequently Asked Questions Re: Utah Expo Permits and Conservation Funding | General Hunting

Part 2 - Debunking the DWR?s Frequently Asked Questions Re: Utah Expo Permits and Conservation Funding Due to the size of the initial thread on this topic, I am starting a second thread with FAQ #13. I would personally like to watch the initial thread approach 1,000 posts but it is already...

www.monstermuleys.info

This will give you some reading material.

Slammy-

Let’s grab lunch some time and I can fill you in on all the details. I lived this issue for nearly five years. I get tired of rehashing it all online but I’d be happy to chat with you in person — without making it personal. PM me at your convenience.

Hawkeye

 

[slamdunk]

Slammy-

Let’s grab lunch some time and I can fill you in on all the details. I lived this issue for nearly five years. I get tired of rehashing it all online but I’d be happy to chat with you in person — without making it personal. PM me at your convenience.

Hawkeye

I would actually really like that.

FWIW, that whole fiasco took place as I was barely getting involved, so my focus and outlook are from my personal beginning and forward only.
I love what I do and I look forward to the Expo every year and all the various events I am assigned to do there.

This thing has caused a few of us aneurysms just arguing over it and the time lost of both sides trying to gain an inch is nothing but wasted.

I haven't changed anyone's mind over my countless threads, comments or even factual proof of where dollars come from or where they go, just as no one will convince me that I am part of a fraudulent conspiracy.

I know where money comes from because I help raise it, just as I know where it goes because I physically help put it in the ground.

Having said those things, I would be very much open to meeting for lunch sometime and gain some knowledge from someone who was actually there.

 

[slamdunk]

Can you honestly say $fw/MDF are paying the bill?

Honestly I haven't seen a cost breakdown on who pays for what.
My point was, an event that large costs millions to put on but I keep reading that RMEF claimed they wouldn't make a dime.
Were they interested in "costing" themselves money?
They are a 501c3, they aren't in the business to lose money.


The DWR mans the lotto booth, paid by all of us. Utah elevated kicks in money. The city and county do as well.
[/QUOTE]
Absolutely 100%

Also. Are you saying that unless they are paid, MDF/$fw volunteers wouldn't volunteer if the state kept the proceeds?

Like Vanilla, I walk a wide circle because MDF is transparent, but would YOU not volunteer for projects if MDF didn't get paid?
[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure I understand this question clearly.
If MDF didn't get paid, there wouldn't be any MDF projects.
Would I do conservation work for another group?
No, but I would volunteer directly with the DNR if they allowed public offerings.

 

[hossblur]

Honestly I haven't seen a cost breakdown on who pays for what.
My point was, an event that large costs millions to put on but I keep reading that RMEF claimed they wouldn't make a dime.
Were they interested in "costing" themselves money?
They are a 501c3, they aren't in the business to lose money.


The DWR mans the lotto booth, paid by all of us. Utah elevated kicks in money. The city and county do as well.

Absolutely 100%

Also. Are you saying that unless they are paid, MDF/$fw volunteers wouldn't volunteer if the state kept the proceeds?

Like Vanilla, I walk a wide circle because MDF is transparent, but would YOU not volunteer for projects if MDF didn't get paid?
[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure I understand this question clearly.
If MDF didn't get paid, there wouldn't be any MDF projects.
Would I do conservation work for another group?
No, but I would volunteer directly with the DNR if they allowed public offerings.
[/QUOTE]

I'd imagine most folks would.

 

[slamdunk]

Absolutely 100%

Also. Are you saying that unless they are paid, MDF/$fw volunteers wouldn't volunteer if the state kept the proceeds?

Like Vanilla, I walk a wide circle because MDF is transparent, but would YOU not volunteer for projects if MDF didn't get paid?

I'm not sure I understand this question clearly.
If MDF didn't get paid, there wouldn't be any MDF projects.
Would I do conservation work for another group?
No, but I would volunteer directly with the DNR if they allowed public offerings.
[/QUOTE]

I'd imagine most folks would.
[/QUOTE]
Not enough do though, yet they complain about what a piss poor job our DWR is doing.

 

[slamdunk]

@hossblur
I have no clue how that post got out of alignment, but it's all good, I believe we followed suit well enough

 

[hossblur]

@hossblur
I have no clue how that post got out of alignment, but it's all good, I believe we followed suit well enough

I got it

.
..
I'm still curious why you asked how rmef pays for a 4 day expo.

Why are our tags paying for it? What benefit does the resource get out of anything other than the lotto or auction?

 

[elkassassin]

Hey hawky!

Don't Forget About THE RIDE For Next Year!

You Two Missed It This Year & I Understand That Everybody Is Busy!

Really Wanted It To Happen This Year!

Seriously,Can We Make It Happen In 2024?

Slammy-

Let’s grab lunch some time and I can fill you in on all the details. I lived this issue for nearly five years. I get tired of rehashing it all online but I’d be happy to chat with you in person — without making it personal. PM me at your convenience.

Hawkeye

 

[slamdunk]

I got it

.
..
I'm still curious why you asked how rmef pays for a 4 day expo.

Why are our tags paying for it? What benefit does the resource get out of anything other than the lotto or auction?

It's a fair question, I thought.
How would they pay the millions of dollars it would cost them to host the Expo?

Isn't that where the $1.50 from each current hosts money goes when they call it "Administration Fees"?
$5.00 tag-
$1.50 goes to State
$1.75 ×2 "Administration fees.
(Edited)

Would it be fair for RMEF to use membership money to pay for a 4 day massive event?

When I pay my $35 annually to RMEF, I am under the impression it goes towards Conservation of Elk, not to pay John Bair to Auction tags or to Ned LeDoux to do a concert on Saturday night.

My initial question was how was RMEF going to guarantee 100% return to the state of Utah?
Just as the proposal letter stated, they didn't have a clear business plan.

I obviously don't know the inside and outs of the business end of this thing and I'm sure I'm miles off, which is why I asked the question of how would the RMEF pay for such a monstrous event without using their own membership funds which is illegal for a 501c3 entity to do.

 

[hossblur]

It's a fair question, I thought.
How would they pay the millions of dollars it would cost them to host the Expo?

Isn't that where the $1.50 from each current hosts money goes when they call it "Administration Fees"?
$5.00 tag-
$2.00 goes to State
$1.50 ×2 "Administration fees.

Would it be fair for RMEF to use membership money to pay for a 4 day massive event?

When I pay my $35 annually to RMEF, I am under the impression it goes towards Conservation of Elk, not to pay John Bair to Auction tags or to Ned LeDoux to do a concert on Saturday night.

My initial question was how was RMEF going to guarantee 100% return to the state of Utah?
Just as the proposal letter stated, they didn't have a clear business plan.

I obviously don't know the inside and outs of the business end of this thing and I'm sure I'm miles off, which is why I asked the question of how would the RMEF pay for such a monstrous event without using their own membership funds which is illegal for a 501c3 entity to do.

My question is why would they have to?

Why are we, the "owners" of the wildlife, giving up 200 tags to pay for a trade show/convention?

What does the resource gain from thurs- sat afternoon?

I see no reason an entity like rmef cant just do the lotto online, and do an auction on Sat night.

The money spent leasing the salt palace Thurs, Fri, and most of sat, can be used for wildlife instead of a meet and greet/ trade show.

The tags sell themselves, no need to pay Ned Ledoux, the money comes in bidding for tags not music.

 

[slamdunk]

My question is why would they have to?

Why are we, the "owners" of the wildlife, giving up 200 tags to pay for a trade show/convention?

What does the resource gain from thurs- sat afternoon?

I see no reason an entity like rmef cant just do the lotto online, and do an auction on Sat night.

The money spent leasing the salt palace Thurs, Fri, and most of sat, can be used for wildlife instead of a meet and greet/ trade show.

The tags sell themselves, no need to pay Ned Ledoux, the money comes in bidding for tags not music.

Because as I previously posted, $7.7m versus $52k is substantial enough for the less than 3% of tags loss from the general draw.

It's not even a loss, they are still available for draw and as an additional opportunity that we didn't have before.
The difference to us is the required validation process.

Maybe someone can do a little research and see how many people attend the Expo that don't even bother to apply for tags, and vice versa.
I'm sure that data is there.

 

[slamdunk]

@hossblur
As I have stated, I wouldn't lose sleep over the tags going back to the general pool, I would just live with the loss of a draw opportunity during times that are already basically OIL.

My son, his wife, 3 co-workers and a friend have all drawn Expo tags.
Those are opportunities they wouldn't have had before.

My son's wife drew late Manti bull last year, we killed a 383" 7x7 bull.
She still has 13 Elk points to draw another Elk tag in her lifetime.
Is the consensus of you and others who dislike the process, "she took an opportunity away from someone else in the general draw"?

The money generated from that Elk tag at Expo far exceeded the money generated from the general draw, and yet all the same applicants shared the same exact opportunity to draw.

 

[Vanilla]

My son's wife drew late Manti bull last year, we killed a 383" 7x7 bull.
She still has 13 Elk points to draw another Elk tag in her lifetime.
Is the consensus of you and others who dislike the process, "she took an opportunity away from someone else in the general draw"?

She didn’t take anything from anyone. There was a draw legally available, and she utilized it. She certainly did nothing wrong. But I better never hear you say we need to make changes to the system to address point creep! Because…

 

[elkassassin]

Not One Bess Boy Anywhere Has Pulled One F'N Tag!

Imagine That!

 

[Vanilla]

Slam, people pay an entrance fee to get into the expo, correct? It’s not just about the $5application for tags and how it’s allocated.

I think you’re ignoring a large chunk of revenue that is at play here. The $3.50 (not $3.00) is not the only revenue stream available to pay for the expo. And when your show brings in 200k without the lure of tags, not just 40-60k with it, that’s a pretty large potential revenue stream in entrance fees.

You say you know where the money comes from and where it goes, but do you? MDF has been MUCH more open about this than their expo partner, so you’d be one of the few that knows, if in fact you know. I don’t think you do, however. I don’t think you even know as much about MDF on this one as that statement conclusively states above.

I think that’s an oversight and strong language more in puffery than you being dishonest. I always have thought you’re a stand up guy, and that hasn’t changed. I do think you are out over your skis on this one and need to sharpen up on the history before you fight these battles. Just one man’s opinion, but one that knows the backstories here and not just going off hearsay.

Merry Christmas to you and yours Slammy!

 

[elkassassin]

Could ALCATRAZ Support Having One More Buck Harvested?

JJ Will Go 500K & Plans On Getting The Tag Again In 2024 According To What He's Boasting!

With A Few PUPPETS/PLANTS Doing Some Bidding Just To JACK The Price To 500K We Could Put Some Of The EXPO Tags Back In To The Public Draw!

Now Granted!

Not Both Would Go For 500K!

But Sounds Like One Would!

It'll Be Interesting If Somebody Draws The 2024 ALCATRAZ Tag & Doesn't Know It Till After The Season Starts?

You're Perty Blind If You Don't Know What Happened There!

 

[slamdunk]

She didn’t take anything from anyone. There was a draw legally available, and she utilized it. She certainly did nothing wrong. But I better never hear you say we need to make changes to the system to address point creep! Because…

That's fair.

However, I will never stop complaining about the state continuing to allow tags to be surrendered "just because".
That is where my point creep complaint originates from.

 

[elkassassin]

Hey PUNK!

I Think Alot Of The Surrendering Tags BS Will Not Be As Famous From Here On Out!

Alot Of Them Guys Were Working It To Their Advantage Waiting For Them 400" Bulls To Get 500"!

How's That Panning Out For Them Just About F'N Now?

That's fair.

However, I will never stop complaining about the state continuing to allow tags to be surrendered "just because".
That is where my point creep complaint originates from.

 

[Horsecorn]

@hossblur
As I have stated, I wouldn't lose sleep over the tags going back to the general pool, I would just live with the loss of a draw opportunity during times that are already basically OIL.

My son, his wife, 3 co-workers and a friend have all drawn Expo tags.
Those are opportunities they wouldn't have had before.

My son's wife drew late Manti bull last year, we killed a 383" 7x7 bull.
She still has 13 Elk points to draw another Elk tag in her lifetime.
Is the consensus of you and others who dislike the process, "she took an opportunity away from someone else in the general draw"?

The money generated from that Elk tag at Expo far exceeded the money generated from the general draw, and yet all the same applicants shared the same exact opportunity to draw.

Maybe keep that draw, but don’t make people have attend in person to validate. Look how much more money they would bring in by doing that. Hell I would probably do that. But I won’t as it is now cause I will not support that event that sfw, RMEF, or any of the other conservation groups support Im anti,anything.

 

[slamdunk]

Slam, people pay an entrance fee to get into the expo, correct? It’s not just about the $5application for tags and how it’s allocated.

I think you’re ignoring a large chunk of revenue that is at play here. The $3.50 (not $3.00) is not the only revenue stream available to pay for the expo. And when your show brings in 200k without the lure of tags, not just 40-60k with it, that’s a pretty large potential revenue stream in entrance fees.

You say you know where the money comes from and where it goes, but do you? MDF has been MUCH more open about this than their expo partner, so you’d be one of the few that knows, if in fact you know. I don’t think you do, however. I don’t think you even know as much about MDF on this one as that statement conclusively states above.

I think that’s an oversight and strong language more in puffery than you being dishonest. I always have thought you’re a stand up guy, and that hasn’t changed. I do think you are out over your skis on this one and need to sharpen up on the history before you fight these battles. Just one man’s opinion, but one that knows the backstories here and not just going off hearsay.

Merry Christmas to you and yours Slammy!

I stand corrected, I had $3.00 in my foggy head at 5am this morning before my coffee kicked in, my honest mistake.

I definitely do not claim to know everything on this side of the isle, but being here means I definitely know more than those who are not.
I've got a long way to go and a lot more to learn, absolutely yes, and this is EXACTLY why I joined this particular organization.
I saw enough of it to want more than my $35 annual membership.
I am now a Lifetime Member and on the "High Desert Leadership Team".

We all could learn more about conservation dollars, origins, allocations and resting places.

How many "spectators" even know what the Pittman Robertson Act does?

Merry Christmas Vanilla, I do respect the heck out of you.

 

[slamdunk]

Slam, people pay an entrance fee to get into the expo, correct? It’s not just about the $5application for tags and how it’s allocated.

I think you’re ignoring a large chunk of revenue that is at play here. The $3.50 (not $3.00) is not the only revenue stream available to pay for the expo. And when your show brings in 200k without the lure of tags, not just 40-60k with it, that’s a pretty large potential revenue stream in entrance fees.

You say you know where the money comes from and where it goes, but do you? MDF has been MUCH more open about this than their expo partner, so you’d be one of the few that knows, if in fact you know. I don’t think you do, however. I don’t think you even know as much about MDF on this one as that statement conclusively states above.

I think that’s an oversight and strong language more in puffery than you being dishonest. I always have thought you’re a stand up guy, and that hasn’t changed. I do think you are out over your skis on this one and need to sharpen up on the history before you fight these battles. Just one man’s opinion, but one that knows the backstories here and not just going off hearsay.

Merry Christmas to you and yours Slammy!

I stand corrected, I had $3.00 in my foggy head at 5am this morning before my coffee kicked in, my honest mistake.

I definitely do not claim to know everything on this side of the isle, but being here means I definitely know more than those who are not.
I've got a long way to go and a lot more to learn, absolutely yes, and this is EXACTLY why I joined this particular organization.
I saw enough of it to want more than my $35 annual membership.
I am now a Lifetime Member and on the "High Desert Leadership Team".

We all could learn more about conservation dollars, origins, allocations and resting places.

How many "spectators" even know what the Pittman Robertson Act does?

Merry Christmas Vanilla, I do respect the heck out of you.

 

[slamdunk]

FWIW....

R657-55 – Wildlife expo permits

This rule provides the standards and requirements for issuing wildlife expo permits.

wildlife.utah.gov

 

[hossblur]

Because as I previously posted, $7.7m versus $52k is substantial enough for the less than 3% of tags loss from the general draw.

It's not even a loss, they are still available for draw and as an additional opportunity that we didn't have before.
The difference to us is the required validation process.

Maybe someone can do a little research and see how many people attend the Expo that don't even bother to apply for tags, and vice versa.
I'm sure that data is there.

You said, did RMEF plan to lose money hosting the EXPO.


My question is why are tags paying for the expo?

The Expo and sat auction aren't the same.


Why are we auctioning off tags, to rent space for vendors? Do the vendors contribute a %to wildlife?

 

[Keystone]

Exactly.


The administration of the 4 day party is paid for via tags.

The tags were supposed to raise money FOR WILDLIFE

 

[slamdunk]

You said, did RMEF plan to lose money hosting the EXPO.


My question is why are tags paying for the expo?

The Expo and sat auction aren't the same.


Why are we auctioning off tags, to rent space for vendors? Do the vendors contribute a %to wildlife?

All the money raised at Expo goes to Conservation, it's the requirement and is audited.
Vendors fees, patronage, tags......all of it.
The only part that is utilized for administration is 10% of the Auction tags.
The MDF operates at 89%, meaning .89 cents of every dollar we raise from anything we do, regardless of event is required to go to conservation.

I cannot vouch for SFW's investment.

As for me questioning the RMEF's guarantee of 100% or every dollar, how would they pay for such a grand 4 day event?

 

[SS!]

All the money raised at Expo goes to Conservation, it's the requirement and is audited.
Vendors fees, patronage, tags......all of it.
The only part that is utilized for administration is 10% of the Auction tags.
The MDF operates at 89%, meaning .89 cents of every dollar we raise from anything we do, regardless of event is required to go to conservation.

I cannot vouch for SFW's investment.

As for me questioning the RMEF's guarantee of 100% or every dollar, how would they pay for such a grand 4 day event?

There’s a lot you don’t understand. Add that to the list. You also don’t understands proposals, RFPs, justification statements, successful conservation organizations, the list goes on.

As a hunter who would you trust more with your money. The organization who’s made no progress in 35 years except to divide hunters (MFF) or the one whose success had led us to have too many elk in places?

Easy choice.

 

[Vanilla]

All the money raised at Expo goes to Conservation, it's the requirement and is audited

The only part that is utilized for administration is 10% of the Auction tags.

This simply isn’t true. There is $3.50 on every single application (over 400k separate apps last year alone) for the expo tags that is reserved for the expo partners for “administrative costs.”

I’ve already provided the math for what that equals in real dollars in the other thread. It’s not a trivial amount!

And the remaining 90% isn’t turned over to the Division for conservation, it stays with the org. I know those are audited and approved, but so was this award process. So forgive me if my trust level with that system is low.

 

[slamdunk]

This simply isn’t true. There is $3.50 on every single application (over 400k separate apps last year alone) for the expo tags that is reserved for the expo partners for “administrative costs.”

I’ve already provided the math for what that equals in real dollars in the other thread. It’s not a trivial amount!

And the remaining 90% isn’t turned over to the Division for conservation, it stays with the org. I know those are audited and approved, but so was this award process. So forgive me if my trust level with that system is low.

Incorrect.

Yes that 3.50 money is the 200 tag $.
That is what we have to do a cover letter approved by DWR to spend that money.
Some things we have purchased over the years were mule deer relocation trailers.
1 million dollars to Cinnamon Creek property was a few years of that 3.50 money, as well as the deer feeding.
It is still mandated to be used in the state of Utah as conservation funds, we just get to pick what we want to do rather than a WRI system where they show us what they want to do.

 

[cantkillathing]

All the money raised at Expo goes to Conservation, it's the requirement and is audited.
Vendors fees, patronage, tags......all of it.
The only part that is utilized for administration is 10% of the Auction tags.
The MDF operates at 89%, meaning .89 cents of every dollar we raise from anything we do, regardless of event is required to go to conservation.

I cannot vouch for SFW's investment.

As for me questioning the RMEF's guarantee of 100% or every dollar, how would they pay for such a grand 4 day event?

is if auction prices are up do the administration get raises for the year? Why isn't just a straight up, this is our administration cost and then everything else goes to conservation? There is a huge difference if you are taking 11% off of 1 million vs. 2 million vs, 5 million.

 

[SS!]

I

Incorrect.

Yes that 3.50 money is the 200 tag $.
That is what we have to do a cover letter approved by DWR to spend that money.
Some things we have purchased over the years were mule deer relocation trailers.
1 million dollars to Cinnamon Creek property was a few years of that 3.50 money, as well as the deer feeding.
It is still mandated to be used in the state of Utah as conservation funds, we just get to pick what we want to do rather than a WRI system where they show us what they want to do.

who is "we"? are you speaking for the MDF, SFW or both?

 

[Vanilla]

R657-55-10. Wildlife Expo Permit — Application Handling Fee Revenue.​

(1)(a) All wildlife expo permit application handling fee revenue generated by the conservation organization under R657-55-5(2) will be deposited in a separate, federally insured account to prevent commingling with any other funds.

(b) Interest earned on the portion of application handling fee revenue retained by the conservation organization for administrative expenses under Subsection (2) may be retained and used by the conservation organization.

(c) Interest earned on the portion of application handling fee revenue committed to fund wildlife conservation projects under Subsection (3) shall be used by the conservation organization to fund approved wildlife conservation projects.

(2) The conservation organization may retain up to $3.50 of each $5.00 application handling fee for administrative expenses, unless the conservation organization pledges a greater percentage of the application handling fee to wildlife conservation in:

(a) its response to the request for proposal; or

(b) the expo contract with the division.

(3) The remaining balance of each $5.00 application handling fee and accrued interest, less standard banking fees assessed on the account where the funding is deposited, will be used by the conservation organization to fund projects advancing wildlife interests in the state, subject to the following:

(a) project funding will not be committed to or expended on any project without first obtaining the division director's written approval;

(b) cash donations to the Wildlife Habitat Account created under Section 23A-3-207 or Division Species Enhancement Funds are authorized projects that do not require the division director's approval; and

(c) application handling fee revenue dedicated to funding projects must be completely expended on approved projects or transferred to the division by August 1st, two years following the year in which the application handling fee revenue is collected.

(4) Application handling fee revenue committed to division-approved projects will be transferred by the conservation organization to the division within 60 days of being invoiced by the division.

(a) If the division-approved project to which funds are committed is completed under projected budget or canceled, funds committed to the project that are not used will be kept by the division and credited back to the conservation organization and made available for the group to use on other approved projects during the current or subsequent year.

(5) All records and receipts for projects under Subsection (3) must be retained by the conservation organization for a period not less than five years, and shall be produced to the division for inspection upon request.

(6) The conservation organization shall submit a report to the division and Wildlife Board each year by August 1st that accounts for and documents the following:

(a) gross revenue generated from collecting $5 wildlife expo permit application handling fees;

(b) total amount of application handling fee revenue retained for administrative expenses; and

(c) total amount of application handling fee revenue set aside and dedicated to funding projects, including bank statements showing account balances.

(7) A partner organization that individually receives application handling fee revenue from the expo permit drawing pursuant to a co-participant contract with the conservation organization, is subject to the provisions in Subsections (1) through (6).

FWIW, on the link you put up above. Again, you may want to check this stuff more closely.

 

[slamdunk]

is if auction prices are up do the administration get raises for the year? Why isn't just a straight up, this is our administration cost and then everything else goes to conservation? There is a huge difference if you are taking 11% off of 1 million vs. 2 million vs, 5 million.

I need to seek a new position!
I just got an 8% raise at just shy of $3

 

[slamdunk]

FWIW, on the link you put up above. Again, you may want to check this stuff more closely.

I verified with my regional director, what I posted is correct.

 

[cantkillathing]

Quote from Slam "The only part that is utilized for administration is 10% of the Auction tags.
Also Slam: "The MDF operates at 89%, meaning .89 cents of every dollar we raise from anything we do, regardless of event is required to go to conservation."
Why 10% or 11% which ever, why not a straight up cost?

 

[SS!]

Lets ask the real questions

How many MDF and SFW members use DP nutrition?

 

[elkfromabove]

Slam, people pay an entrance fee to get into the expo, correct? It’s not just about the $5application for tags and how it’s allocated.

I think you’re ignoring a large chunk of revenue that is at play here. The $3.50 (not $3.00) is not the only revenue stream available to pay for the expo. And when your show brings in 200k without the lure of tags, not just 40-60k with it, that’s a pretty large potential revenue stream in entrance fees.

You say you know where the money comes from and where it goes, but do you? MDF has been MUCH more open about this than their expo partner, so you’d be one of the few that knows, if in fact you know. I don’t think you do, however. I don’t think you even know as much about MDF on this one as that statement conclusively states above.

I think that’s an oversight and strong language more in puffery than you being dishonest. I always have thought you’re a stand up guy, and that hasn’t changed. I do think you are out over your skis on this one and need to sharpen up on the history before you fight these battles. Just one man’s opinion, but one that knows the backstories here and not just going off hearsay.

Merry Christmas to you and yours Slammy!

EXPO entry fees! Now, add to that booth fees, food, parking, individual corporate sponsors, dinners, auctions and shows. And if I'm not mistaken, there are funds coming in from the Salt Lake City and State of Utah Tourist Bureaus and maybe a Chamber of Commerce or two. In any case, it seems like there is more than enough coming in to pay the "administrative" EXPO costs.

I know the FANX Comic Convention that happens in September draws twice as many people and makes a whole lot more money with nary a wildlife tag in sight.

 

[slamdunk]

Quote from Slam "The only part that is utilized for administration is 10% of the Auction tags.
Also Slam: "The MDF operates at 89%, meaning .89 cents of every dollar we raise from anything we do, regardless of event is required to go to conservation."
Why 10% or 11% which ever, why not a straight up cost?

I have no idea as to why a 1% Difference between allocations.
That is above my pay grade.....all of this actually is

 

[hossblur]

Incorrect.

Yes that 3.50 money is the 200 tag $.
That is what we have to do a cover letter approved by DWR to spend that money.
Some things we have purchased over the years were mule deer relocation trailers.
1 million dollars to Cinnamon Creek property was a few years of that 3.50 money, as well as the deer feeding.
It is still mandated to be used in the state of Utah as conservation funds, we just get to pick what we want to do rather than a WRI system where they show us what they want to do.

Why aren't the admin fees for the expo covered by rental fees by the vendors?

 

[slamdunk]

Why aren't the admin fees for the expo covered by rental fees by the vendors?

You're asking the wrong guy

 

[hossblur]

You're asking the wrong guy

Fair enough

 

[Vanilla]

You're asking the wrong guy

You're only being asked because you purported to know the answers above. Remember Slam, you said you know where the money is coming from and where it is going. I don't think that is true, but that isn't a knock on you. It's a knock on a system that doesn't let anyone outside of a very select few persons to know the answer to those things.

Which illustrates the entire problem!

 

[elkassassin]

Hey Niller?

You Gonna Make The EXPO This Time?

 

[elkassassin]

Nobody Liked My ALCATRAZ Tag Idea I Guess?

I'll Take It As A BIG FU!

 

[slamdunk]

You're only being asked because you purported to know the answers above. Remember Slam, you said you know where the money is coming from and where it is going. I don't think that is true, but that isn't a knock on you. It's a knock on a system that doesn't let anyone outside of a very select few persons to know the answer to those things.

Which illustrates the entire problem!

Ok I'll admit my comment about where it comes from is obviously limited, I'd be a fool to even debate that.
I've only been involved at the level I am for a handful of years, but as time goes by I want to learn more because I am a transparent guy.

I do have to ask you Vanilla, where does your knowledge come from and how are you so 100% certain of everything you state?

You shoot down every fact, every copy and paste, every data, etc, etc.

I can post something right off either the MDF website or DNR website and you immediately call it "smoke screens".

One would think that if everything either entity is publicly stating in writing and an average Joe can easily discredit it, neither would be in business.

With your adamant rebuttals, I would think you aren't this "Average Joe"?

With all due respect, you're trying hard to educate me on something you're not even involved with, yet seem to have extensive inside knowledge of how things work, right down to the penny.

 

[SS!]

Ok I'll admit my comment about where it comes from is obviously limited, I'd be a fool to even debate that.
I've only been involved at the level I am for a handful of years, but as time goes by I want to learn more because I am a transparent guy.

I do have to ask you Vanilla, where does your knowledge come from and how are you so 100% certain of everything you state?

You shoot down every fact, every copy and paste, every data, etc, etc.

I can post something right off either the MDF website or DNR website and you immediately call it "smoke screens".

One would think that if everything either entity is publicly stating in writing and an average Joe can easily discredit it, neither would be in business.

With your adamant rebuttals, I would think you aren't this "Average Joe"?

Hahahaha. Classic Slamdunk.

 

[Vanilla]

With your adamant rebuttals, I would think you aren't this "Average Joe"?

Correct!


But that aside, had you been paying attention to this back in 2014-16 you’d know that there has been oodles of information out there.

I get it. You believe in the mission of MDF and support its causes. I think that’s great. Take away this one issue, the absolute sham awarding of the expo tags, I’ve got no issue with MDF. SFW isn’t in the same boat, I’ve got lots of beef with them. Although I think Troy has done a lot to bring them in line with the mainstream hunter rather than pushing the corporate and wealthy that would end public hunting in general narrative like the prior d bags did. But I’ve got no issue with the vast majority of what MDF does and certainly no problem with the rank and file.

But Slam, with all due respect, no less than 5 times this week on this topic I’ve pointed out things you believed and posted were cold hard facts were actually factually incorrect. You’ve got to be figuring out by now that you might not be getting the full picture from your sources. You should take Hawkeye up on his offer. But also read the links I provided for you if you really want to know why I call BS. It would take WAAAAAY too much time to rehash all this again on here. Just read the first hash.

 

[slamdunk]

Nobody Liked My ALCATRAZ Tag Idea I Guess?

I'll Take It As A BIG FU!

I was going to comment with a thumbs up but I keep having to spend my time defending myself.

The problem that pops into my head on the extra deer tag is will it eventually turn into four tags if we bump it from two to three?
Pandora's box.....

 

[slamdunk]

Correct!


But that aside, had you been paying attention to this back in 2014-16 you’d know that there has been oodles of information out there.

I get it. You believe in the mission of MDF and support its causes. I think that’s great. Take away this one issue, the absolute sham awarding of the expo tags, I’ve got no issue with MDF. SFW isn’t in the same boat, I’ve got lots of beef with them. Although I think Troy has done a lot to bring them in line with the mainstream hunter rather than pushing the corporate and wealthy that would end public hunting in general narrative like the prior d bags did. But I’ve got no issue with the vast majority of what MDF does and certainly no problem with the rank and file.

But Slam, with all due respect, no less than 5 times this week on this topic I’ve pointed out things you believed and posted were cold hard facts were actually factually incorrect. You’ve got to be figuring out by now that you might not be getting the full picture from your sources. You should take Hawkeye up on his offer. But also read the links I provided for you if you really want to know why I call BS. It would take WAAAAAY too much time to rehash all this again on here. Just read the first hash.

I would definitely be open to meeting Hawkeye.
I also was PM'd by another lawyer i know from the same firm that wants to join us.

But why are people trying so hard to convince me I'm involved with a legal sham?
Who am I to those?

I have nothing to do with the organization in question, nor do I plan on being involved there at a personal level.

I am MDF because it is the ONLY organization I truly believe in and is why I strive to climb as high as I possibly can with them.

 

[Vanilla]

But why are people trying so hard to convince me I'm involved with a legal sham?
Who am I to those?

I can only speak for me, but it’s not about convincing you that you are involved in a legal sham. It’s much more about responding to claims being made that are not accurate.

And I’m certainly not trying to attack you. You shouldn’t feel the need to defend yourself. It’s just a discussion.

 

[SS!]

Correct!


But that aside, had you been paying attention to this back in 2014-16 you’d know that there has been oodles of information out there.

I get it. You believe in the mission of MDF and support its causes. I think that’s great. Take away this one issue, the absolute sham awarding of the expo tags, I’ve got no issue with MDF. SFW isn’t in the same boat, I’ve got lots of beef with them. Although I think Troy has done a lot to bring them in line with the mainstream hunter rather than pushing the corporate and wealthy that would end public hunting in general narrative like the prior d bags did. But I’ve got no issue with the vast majority of what MDF does and certainly no problem with the rank and file.

But Slam, with all due respect, no less than 5 times this week on this topic I’ve pointed out things you believed and posted were cold hard facts were actually factually incorrect. You’ve got to be figuring out by now that you might not be getting the full picture from your sources. You should take Hawkeye up on his offer. But also read the links I provided for you if you really want to know why I call BS. It would take WAAAAAY too much time to rehash all this again on here. Just read the first hash.

It’s quite simple. He doesn’t respect you or anyone else for that matter.