Deer or Elk

[Dang big]

So there has been a decline in our Utah deer, I would like to pose a question based on how I remember things no data and I will use the cache unit for my example and my grammar will be terrible, so all you perfect people keep it to yourself.

In the 80s we had some good deer numbers.
Post 83/84 winter the deer had declined but bounced back quickly not much different than what happened recently but it is taking longer for the rebound.
The 2 differences I see currently is
1- Elk and lots of them now, in the 80s they (elk) were few and far having low impact to winter forage
2- human encroachment on the benches now high impact on winter

So with increase of homes and hundreds more elk there is no feed for the deer.
We hunters need to decide if we want deer or elk because in many units I think it’s going to be a huge struggle to have any deer Quality if they try to manage both.
What are the forums thoughts?

 

[elkassassin]

As Bad as the Feed Has Been!

I Haven't Seen One Damn Deer That Starved to Death Yet This Year!

You Want Me To Post HELL-RIGHT again?

 

[Dang big]

No

As Bad as the Feed Has Been!

I Haven't Seen One Damn Deer That Starved to Death Yet This Year!

You Want Me To Post HELL-RIGHT again?

No not yet it’s early still though

 

[elkassassin]

I Agree!

It's Early!

The Average Size of the Average Mule Deer now days is a Way Smaller Animal! (Yes,SL I know there are Exceptions!)

Making them not as Tough for Survival along with Being Herassed,Hunted,Pushed nearly year around!

When You Get 50+ Reasons Why Posted You'll be getting Close to as Why the Deer Herd SUCKS!

 

[deerkiller]

1. Eliminate public grazing. Especially in drought years. Private profit from public resources needs to get gone. Right now our wildlife is taking a back seat to cattle on public land and that is wrong. They also need to hold cattlemen more accountable to their grazing dates that their animals are allowed on public land. If hunters live and die by our season dates, the cattle need to as well. Any cow or sheep found on public land after a certain date, can legally be killed. Couldn’t get your animals off in time? Maybe next year you’ll make it a bigger priority. There isn’t an “-ish” printed next to the dates on hunters permits. Grazing permits shouldn’t be any different. resources are limited. They need to treat it as such.

2. erase the entire WB and start over with people that aren’t bought and paid for by $FW. That whole group is the biggest plague utah has in its wildlife right now.

3. Limit the use of scoped firearms on GS deer hunts. If you wanna use a scope on your rifle, draw a LE deer tag, OIL tag or buy/draw any elk tag or antlerless tag in the state. You’d have much higher carry over on bucks every year if you had to use open sights to hunt with. It sucks and would impact everyone, but the deer aren’t the only thing that need to be managed. Hunters need to manage themselves as well.

4. The governor and governor elect need to quit encouraging everyone to move to utah. We are full. We don’t need more people and we certainly don’t need to develop more land for commercial and private use. Just because a home or empty business isn’t on that land, doesn’t mean there needs to be.

5. QUIT SHOOTING DOES WHEN DEER NUMBERS ARENT AT OR ABOVE OBJECTIVE!! I love hunting antlerless animals, but if a species is struggling state wide, there is absolutely no reason to be intentionally killing ANY of them until numbers recover. When we have an excess, then throw some tags at them.

 

[Shadow]

Aside from “eliminate” public grazing, DK, you knocked that out of the park. But I do agree on better grazing management, particularly in drought years. Nothing frosts my ass worse than seeing cattle at 9000’ in mid November eating dirt.
The other thing I might add to the list is a strict shed season and I’m sure to take flack from shed hunters but stay the hell out until may 1st, March and April are too critical to deer for winter recovery.

 

[deerkiller]

Aside from “eliminate” public grazing, DK, you knocked that out of the park. But I do agree on better grazing management, particularly in drought years. Nothing frosts my ass worse than seeing cattle at 9000’ in mid November eating dirt.
The other thing I might add to the list is a strict shed season and I’m sure to take flack from shed hunters but stay the hell out until may 1st, March and April are too critical to deer for winter recovery.

Totally fine with shed closures, with 2 understandings first.

1. any and all recreational activities on state, blm lands or designated winter ranges, are off limits starting January 1. Wanna go for a hike? Go walk up a winter gated road on FS or a marked trail. No wheeler rides, no small game hunting, no snowmobiling, horse riding, target shooting or taking the dog for a walk. No human traffic of any kind.

2. anyone caught doing so, will face a fine, lose all hunting privileges for 5 years and ALL hunting points accumulated in the draw to that point will be wiped clean and set back to zero. Turkey, swan, elk, bison, sheep, doesn’t matter. All are erased. If you don’t hunt and are caught and convicted, then something else needs to be determined as a punishment. Maybe have to make a monthly payment into a state wildlife fund of $100, for 5 years, where that money goes back into wildlife habitat or restoration. Don’t make your payments? Then you can’t register your Subaru and when caught driving on expired tags, your car is impounded and not released to you until you are all paid up on everything.

As far as the livestock thing, I know of several groups of cattle right now on FS land, living in the same area elk and deer are trying to survive the winter in. They should have been off the mountain months ago. But no, they are still mooching off the land. And the owners have no desire to go get their animals. That’s just less mouths they have to feed over the winter

 

[Dang big]

W

Totally fine with shed closures, with 2 understandings first.

1. any and all recreational activities on state, blm lands or designated winter ranges, are off limits starting January 1. Wanna go for a hike? Go walk up a winter gated road on FS or a marked trail. No wheeler rides, no small game hunting, no snowmobiling, horse riding, target shooting or taking the dog for a walk. No human traffic of any kind.

2. anyone caught doing so, will face a fine, lose all hunting privileges for 5 years and ALL hunting points accumulated in the draw to that point will be wiped clean and set back to zero. Turkey, swan, elk, bison, sheep, doesn’t matter. All are erased. If you don’t hunt and are caught and convicted, then something else needs to be determined as a punishment. Maybe have to make a monthly payment into a state wildlife fund of $100, for 5 years, where that money goes back into wildlife habitat or restoration. Don’t make your payments? Then you can’t register your Subaru and when caught driving on expired tags, your car is impounded and not released to you until you are all paid up on everything.

As far as the livestock thing, I know of several groups of cattle right now on FS land, living in the same area elk and deer are trying to survive the winter in. They should have been off the mountain months ago. But no, they are still mooching off the land. And the owners have no desire to go get their animals. That’s just less mouths they have to feed over the winter

i agree with everything you have stated I am curious should certain units be managed for just deer? Especially knowing the multi use aspects of the particular units would that be an option? I think even if we limited the multi use thing so units can not sustain full populations of both deer and elk. Just a thought.....

 

[UtyoteKiller]

1. Eliminate public grazing. Especially in drought years. Private profit from public resources needs to get gone. Right now our wildlife is taking a back seat to cattle on public land and that is wrong. They also need to hold cattlemen more accountable to their grazing dates that their animals are allowed on public land. If hunters live and die by our season dates, the cattle need to as well. Any cow or sheep found on public land after a certain date, can legally be killed. Couldn’t get your animals off in time? Maybe next year you’ll make it a bigger priority. There isn’t an “-ish” printed next to the dates on hunters permits. Grazing permits shouldn’t be any different. resources are limited. They need to treat it as such.

2. erase the entire WB and start over with people that aren’t bought and paid for by $FW. That whole group is the biggest plague utah has in its wildlife right now.

3. Limit the use of scoped firearms on GS deer hunts. If you wanna use a scope on your rifle, draw a LE deer tag, OIL tag or buy/draw any elk tag or antlerless tag in the state. You’d have much higher carry over on bucks every year if you had to use open sights to hunt with. It sucks and would impact everyone, but the deer aren’t the only thing that need to be managed. Hunters need to manage themselves as well.

4. The governor and governor elect need to quit encouraging everyone to move to utah. We are full. We don’t need more people and we certainly don’t need to develop more land for commercial and private use. Just because a home or empty business isn’t on that land, doesn’t mean there needs to be.

5. QUIT SHOOTING DOES WHEN DEER NUMBERS ARENT AT OR ABOVE OBJECTIVE!! I love hunting antlerless animals, but if a species is struggling state wide, there is absolutely no reason to be intentionally killing ANY of them until numbers recover. When we have an excess, then throw some tags at them.

I agree with everything but #1. While there are issues and they do need to be applied with more teeth. Cattleman and range maggot ranchers want public land just as much as you and I. More so then some politicians who would rather sell it off to the high bidder. I can understand your frustrations with that but have you emailed your rep or maybe the forest service to make them aware of your concerns?

 

[deerkiller]

I agree with everything but #1. While there are issues and they do need to be applied with more teeth. Cattleman and range maggot ranchers want public land just as much as you and I. More so then some politicians who would rather sell it off to the high bidder. I can understand your frustrations with that but have you emailed your rep or maybe the forest service to make them aware of your concerns?

I’ve voiced my concerns with many representatives over the years. It falls on deaf ears, like many things.

although I don’t like cattle, I understand why they are grazed on public land. My issues with it are this.

entitlement. I’ve been flat out told by cattlemen that they and their animals have more right to be on that land since they pay for grazing and permit fees. I come 2nd to them and their needs. There’s no consideration for others using the area when they push cattle. I’ve seen many times cattle drives take place in popular hunting areas, opening day, starting at first light. Guys screaming and yelling, dogs barking. I’ve even seen guns fired in the air to push cows. To hell with everyone else who’s waited 20+ years for that tag to hunt there and spent the last 2 weeks scouting the area, for all of it to just go out the window opening morning. I could go on and on about this topic. But there is zero consideration given by cattlemen over this issue. Zero!

season dates. They have dates they are allowed to graze on the land scape and dates they have to have their animals off the land. But their dates have a lot of grey area. They only move them when it’s convenient for them. Some over stay their dates by not days, but weeks, even months. I also have permits issued by the state with dates on them that I’m held to. If I start early or go late on my dates, I’m held accountable to the fullest extent of the law. Why is one acceptable and the other isn’t? There are still cattle on FS land on the Nebo unit right now at 7500’+. They should have been off months ago in that section. In a drought year, they are certainly taking resources they aren’t entitled to at this time.

destroying resources. I’ve seen countless springs polluted and stomped in by cattle. To the point where they or anything else can’t use it. Then they move to the next and start over. Or destroying trails. A herd of 4 cows will tear up a trail way more than any dirtbike would. Yet one is banned from an area and the other isnt. Then there’s the noxious weeds that they bring into our mountains and spread all over the place. What a great thing they contributed to the landscape. I’ve never seen any spring or trail repairs done by these cow guys especially ones off the beat path, but they sure tell everyone they do!

wildlife impacts. This year, right now, they are lowering population objectives of our deer on units. One of the reasons for lowering them, is because there isn’t the amount of feed right now to support the cattle AND wildlife. One needs to get cut. And the wildlife take the back seat, yet again. The naturally occurring wildlife. Yes im sure cattle numbers are being reduced as well, but our wildlife should never come second to cattle. If we can’t support the number of deer a unit is supposed to on an average year, then we certainly don’t have any feed available for cattle that year. I’ve heard the arguments that grazing reduces the chance of wildfires in areas. Well they grazed the hell out of the Nebo unit for many years and that thing went up in flames like no one predicted! Yeah it sure worked well on that deal.

obviously I’ve got an axe to grind with grazing. But it’s not coming out of nowhere. I’ve had many negative experiences with it and witnessed first hand negative impacts it has on our public and resources.

 

[deerkiller]

W

i agree with everything you have stated I am curious should certain units be managed for just deer? Especially knowing the multi use aspects of the particular units would that be an option? I think even if we limited the multi use thing so units can not sustain full populations of both deer and elk. Just a thought.....

Certain general units are managed more for deer than elk, but no. It’s fine to have elk and deer in the same unit, since deer and elk tend to prefer different areas most times of the year.

 

[UtyoteKiller]

I’ve voiced my concerns with many representatives over the years. It falls on deaf ears, like many things.

although I don’t like cattle, I understand why they are grazed on public land. My issues with it are this.

entitlement. I’ve been flat out told by cattlemen that they and their animals have more right to be on that land since they pay for grazing and permit fees. I come 2nd to them and their needs. There’s no consideration for others using the area when they push cattle. I’ve seen many times cattle drives take place in popular hunting areas, opening day, starting at first light. Guys screaming and yelling, dogs barking. I’ve even seen guns fired in the air to push cows. To hell with everyone else who’s waited 20+ years for that tag to hunt there and spent the last 2 weeks scouting the area, for all of it to just go out the window opening morning. I could go on and on about this topic. But there is zero consideration given by cattlemen over this issue. Zero!

season dates. They have dates they are allowed to graze on the land scape and dates they have to have their animals off the land. But their dates have a lot of grey area. They only move them when it’s convenient for them. Some over stay their dates by not days, but weeks, even months. I also have permits issued by the state with dates on them that I’m held to. If I start early or go late on my dates, I’m held accountable to the fullest extent of the law. Why is one acceptable and the other isn’t? There are still cattle on FS land on the Nebo unit right now at 7500’+. They should have been off months ago in that section. In a drought year, they are certainly taking resources they aren’t entitled to at this time.

destroying resources. I’ve seen countless springs polluted and stomped in by cattle. To the point where they or anything else can’t use it. Then they move to the next and start over. Or destroying trails. A herd of 4 cows will tear up a trail way more than any dirtbike would. Yet one is banned from an area and the other isnt. Then there’s the noxious weeds that they bring into our mountains and spread all over the place. What a great thing they contributed to the landscape. I’ve never seen any spring or trail repairs done by these cow guys especially ones off the beat path, but they sure tell everyone they do!

wildlife impacts. This year, right now, they are lowering population objectives of our deer on units. One of the reasons for lowering them, is because there isn’t the amount of feed right now to support the cattle AND wildlife. One needs to get cut. And the wildlife take the back seat, yet again. The naturally occurring wildlife. Yes im sure cattle numbers are being reduced as well, but our wildlife should never come second to cattle. If we can’t support the number of deer a unit is supposed to on an average year, then we certainly don’t have any feed available for cattle that year. I’ve heard the arguments that grazing reduces the chance of wildfires in areas. Well they grazed the hell out of the Nebo unit for many years and that thing went up in flames like no one predicted! Yeah it sure worked well on that deal.

obviously I’ve got an axe to grind with grazing. But it’s not coming out of nowhere. I’ve had many negative experiences with it and witnessed first hand negative impacts it has on our public and resources.

Yes you sure do sound like you have an axe to grind, however if a guy is hunting first light opening morning and a bunch of guys on horses and dogs show up how is that any different than sxs cruising up and down the road? How is that any different than some knuckle head blowing someones stalk? It MIGHT happen but pushing cows on purpose on opening morning seems a stretch. Waiting 20+ years as you know doesn't entitle you to that spot more so than anyone else, just might make you feel more entitled.

 

[Dang big]

Certain general units are managed more for deer than elk, but no. It’s fine to have elk and deer in the same unit, since deer and elk tend to prefer different areas most times of the year.

The winter range in some areas are shared, this is the case on the cache.

 

[deerkiller]

The winter range in some areas are shared, this is the case on the cache.

That’s why I said “most times of the year”.

in the winter their areas over lap, but still aren’t sharing the same areas 100% of the time

 

[middlefork]

The deer collar study on the Cache indicates very little fawn survival. If the fawns don't survive neither do the herds.

The Cat collar study seems to indicate that as more predator's are removed even more are attracted to fill in. Kind of a catch 22.

Contrary to deer killers rant I can't say that I've seen much over grazing or ranchers having stock on the forest past their lease agreements.

I also have a hard time thinking that elk are out competing the deer for forage except on the winter range. But then elk can naturally survive deeper snow than deer.

I don't have any answers. Maybe Bess is right but I get lost in the rant. I guess maybe you get involved with the biologists.

 

[deerkiller]

Yes you sure do sound like you have an axe to grind, however if a guy is hunting first light opening morning and a bunch of guys on horses and dogs show up how is that any different than sxs cruising up and down the road? How is that any different than some knuckle head blowing someones stalk? It MIGHT happen but pushing cows on purpose on opening morning seems a stretch. Waiting 20+ years as you know doesn't entitle you to that spot more so than anyone else, just might make you feel more entitled.

The events I’ve witnessed weren’t anywhere near any kind of a road a truck, atv or SxS could travel down. It’s no secret what days hunts open on. These ranchers know when these hunts take place.

 

[deerslayer88]

The events I’ve witnessed weren’t anywhere near any kind of a road a truck, atv or SxS could travel down. It’s no secret what days hunts open on. These ranchers know when these hunts take place.

Well if your bait didn’t attract the cows too you wouldn’t have a issue bro

 

[deerkiller]

Well if your bait didn’t attract the cows too you wouldn’t have a issue bro

I don’t bait for LE rifle/muzzleloader elk or GS deer. Never have.

 

[deerslayer88]

I don’t bait for LE rifle/muzzleloader elk or GS deer. Never have.

Haha just gotta razz ya. But you do bait for LE deer ya? J/P. I made some of your same arguments about cows grazing to my buddy a couple days ago. He’s a bigger hunting fool then either of us ever dreamed of being. He was like I agree, I was like no **** you agree. He’s hunted a few continents so far and has a game room that makes me drool. One day I’ll convince him to get on MM.

 

[deerkiller]

Haha just gotta razz ya. But you do bait for LE deer ya? J/P. I made some of your same arguments about cows grazing to my buddy a couple days ago. He’s a bigger hunting fool then either of us ever dreamed of being. He was like I agree, I was like no **** you agree. He’s hunted a few continents so far and has a game room that makes me drool. One day I’ll convince him to get on MM.

I’ve never hunter LE deer for myself or anyone in my family, so no. I put out salt for spikes and cows. I’ve put out salt for general deer. Cows aren’t anywhere near my salt licks for deer and only about 1/3 of my elk spots see cattle. I hate everything about those damn things, so I try to be pretty selective on what areas I hunt and choose to put out bait.

 

[hossblur]

I eat beef. I wear leather. And my deer and elk do eat on private ground.

So I support public grazing.

BUT. I do agree on off dates. They should have a grace period, but that should be days not months.

Oil drillers dont get free months. Loggers dont get extra acreage. I dont get extra tags. So I do agree.

Second. Im old enough to remember range riders on the Manti. That doesnt exist any more. The cows do sit on water, for months. Somehow the sheep men have herders, cattle should too.

You want to stop development you need to push for possession of water shares owned by tge developer prior to cutting ground. Not water based of future projects, or schemes. Reality is Utah doesnt have the water to support the current and future development.

I like the public possesion idea for range animals though, and I would extend that to any and all tree stands, blinds, and trail cams left on public land from eve prior to deer archery, to midnight of final big game hunt.

Shed hunting is a no brainer. And no, WE cant control hikers. But we can control us.

 

[Bucks_Bulls]

I can see both sides of the argument. Me personally I don’t have a problem with cows on public land except one senerio that we’ve faced the past couple years. The particular unit I hunt I didn’t draw a cow elk tag, that’s fine. Then they decided that we were in a severe drought and sold an extra 250 tags in august(I was unable to get one of those tags due to internet technical difficulties) The thing that bothers me is cattle weren’t removed from the range they were allowed to stay on the mountain even though there was no grass. The grass meadows were dirt. So why did the elk have to be thinned but the cattle were allowed to stay? Two years later almost all cow elk tags were cut because the herd is down now. Shocker. Otherwise I can see that the cattle ranchers have built ponds and done other improvements that help all animals.

 

[Dang big]

Been discussing this with some folks and it came up that if we want deer back on the cache then they need
1-to change it back to open bull and severely decrease the elk herd.

2-They share habitats all year and we now have elk where we never did.

3-If we want deer back, then this is one of the needed changes along with others.

4-If we don’t want deer back and have a limited entry elk hunt then keep it how it is and don’t complain.

Just thought I would share this discussion thought it was interesting

 

[elkassassin]

Hey Hossy?

"""But We Can Control Us"""

Tell Me when this Might start Happening?

 

[Dang big]

Probably never, just some different thoughts on things.

Hey Hossy?

"""But We Can Control Us"""

Tell Me when this Might start Happening?

 

[ColdBore]

4. The governor and governor elect need to quit encouraging everyone to move to utah. We are full. We don’t need more people and we certainly don’t need to develop more land for commercial and private use. Just because a home or empty business isn’t on that land, doesn’t mean there needs to be.

I've been away from this forum for a few years, due to retirement, but got back on today and saw this.

Ironic timing, as my wife and I have mentioned this a few times recently.

After spending five years there with the Air Force, and many visits before that, I absolutely *loved* Utah, everything about it.

We seriously considered planting roots there upon my retirement, but didn't, with a lot of that based on what is quoted here (and that was five years ago, I can only imagine it's gotten worse). The past year or so, we've contemplated moving "one more time", to our final retirement location, and have been tossing around ideas. My mind keeps going back to Utah; north, south, and anywhere in between, I loved it all. But due to the influx of population (a lot of it by people that aren't good for your state, bringing their issues and attitudes with them, sorry to say), and the associated problems (increased crowding, increased costs, etc, etc), we just can't do it. It would seem extremely hypocritical to look at the population increase as a major issue, and then be another one to contribute to it.

So, as much as I love Utah, I'll just continue to be an occasional visitor, enjoying the fly fishing that I loved so much, and now applying for, *gulp*, non-resident tags and preparing to write a much bigger check if I draw one!