Elk/Deer Hatcheries?

[Vitalwave]

I have a thought I wanted to explore with you all.... You know how millions of fish are stocked into our lakes and streams each year? Could they do that same thing with deer and elk? Im talking about raising herds of deer and elk in such a way that they could release them onto the landscape to assimilate into the natural herds?

There are tons of debates going around right now about "restricting this" or "changing that" and when its comes down to it the bulk of the issue is supply and demand related. We have huge hunting demand which is exceeding our wildlife supply. If we could somehow get the supply up then we probably would make a lot of folks happy. The trophy people would be happy and the opportunity people would be happy. They do it with pheasants already to some degree but I am not sure if it would even be possible with big game?

I am not sure how I feel about this idea and am certain there would be a lot to it. I don't know if its even possible? Just curious what you all think...

@slamdunk @elkhunterUT

 

[hossblur]

So basically do what high fence outfits do?

Besides the horrible PR, loss of fair chase, cost, potential for disease spread, and horrible PR, not to mention, horrible PR, what could go wrong?

 

[SS!]

The Utah MDF is already looking into this.

 

[Vitalwave]

So basically do what high fence outfits do?

Besides the horrible PR, loss of fair chase, cost, potential for disease spread, and horrible PR, not to mention, horrible PR, what could go wrong?

Very valid I am not convinced either just wanted to explore that thought a little more.

I don't think the fair chase would be any different as long as they weren't domesticated. The idea is that the animal would be released or better yet raised on the wild landscape. The trick would be to do it and have it still be wild so it could survive the harsh environment as the wild population does. No high fence or anything like that once they were raised to maturity and released.

I would guess most people fishing cant tell the difference when they catch a trout that was farm raised at some point. Doesn't seem to be much negative PR around that practice. Why does it work for fish and birds but not big game? The expense for sure would be much higher on the big game animals I would agree with that. Disease could certainly be a concern.

Just thinking outside the box. Might be a dumb idea.

 

[Vitalwave]

The Utah MDF is already looking into this.

Wow, that's really interesting. It would probably be quite the undertaking but its been a little intriguing as I have thought about it.

 

[SS!]

Someone posted that whoring out tags has raised 59 million for conservation in Utah since 2001. The result? Way less deer and elk.

59 million could of raised a lot of deer. I like the idea.

 

[hossblur]

Very valid I am not convinced either just wanted to explore that thought a little more.

I don't think the fair chase would be any different as long as they weren't domesticated. The idea is that the animal would be released or better yet raised on the wild landscape. The trick would be to do it and have it still be wild so it could survive the harsh environment as the wild population does. No high fence or anything like that once they were raised to maturity and released.

I would guess most people fishing cant tell the difference when they catch a trout that was farm raised at some point. Doesn't seem to be much negative PR around that practice. Why does it work for fish and birds but not big game? The expense for sure would be much higher on the big game animals I would agree with that. Disease could certainly be a concern.

Just thinking outside the box. Might be a dumb idea.

No one has an emotional attachment to a fingerling trout?

You can read the press and see the videos in your head from PETA

 

[hossblur]

Someone posted that whoring out tags has raised 59 million for conservation in Utah since 2001. The result? Way less deer and elk.

59 million could of raised a lot of deer. I like the idea.

Less deer.

And off the top of my head, 59 seems low

 

[SS!]

Wow, that's really interesting. It would probably be quite the undertaking but its been a little intriguing as I have thought about it.

Yeah unfortunately it will likely not work like the last 30 years of their efforts.

 

[Vitalwave]

Someone posted that whoring out tags has raised 59 million for conservation in Utah since 2001. The result? Way less deer and elk.

59 million could of raised a lot of deer. I like the idea.

Good point

 

[SS!]

Less deer.

And off the top of my head, 59 seems low

The source was questionable at best

 

[SS!]

Here ya go:

 

[Vitalwave]

No one has an emotional attachment to a fingerling trout?

You can read the press and see the videos in your head from PETA

Very true

 

[OutdoorWriter]

The first thought that comes to my mind from a biological standpoint is the reproductive rate. A hen pheasant in captivity lays dozens of eggs during her breeding time. For fish, that number is in the thousands. Artificially hatching both is fast & easy, making it very productive to stock both on a put-&-take basis.

Now consider either deer or elk. In an ideal environment, a deer might have twins; most elk bear one calf only. In either case, the gestation period alone is months long. Then after that comes the weaning period, which also lasts months. Thus, in order to get any type of real production will take a slew of baby factories. It's gonna take a LOT of money to sustain a mother/offspring for close to a year at the least.

And yes, the PR might also become a major hurdle when it becomes "Conservation? Like you're raising more targets, right?"

 

[elkfromabove]

The idea sounds great on paper, but in the 3 years I was involved in the Parowan Front Deer transplants, I learned a whole lot about deer that I didn't know before (and neither did the DWR staff, BYU wildlife biology staff, SFW volunteers, MDF volunteers, capture team, Forest Service personnel, or NRCS personnel.) In the subsequent 53 updates I posted on this forum, I was able to tell you not only how many of those transplanted WILD does died and how, or went missing, or tried to get back to Parowan.

And we also learned about their social structure, eating habits, stamina, sense of danger, and a whole lot of other things. Even now, the DWR biologists are learning new things they didn't know about deer (and elk) per the migration studies. If half of those Parowan WILD deer couldn't make the changes from one WILD place to another WILD place and didn't add anything to the Pahvant herd population, what chance do farm-raised deer have of adding to any WILD population? We might learn some things, but it would be a waste of time and money to try to add to the herd populations, just like the Parowan transplants were!

 

[SS!]

The idea sounds great on paper, but in the 3 years I was involved in the Parowan Front Deer transplants, I learned a whole lot about deer that I didn't know before (and neither did the DWR staff, BYU wildlife biology staff, SFW volunteers, MDF volunteers, capture team, Forest Service personnel, or NRCS personnel.) In the subsequent 53 updates I posted on this forum, I was able to tell you not only how many of those transplanted WILD does died and how, or went missing, or tried to get back to Parowan.

And we also learned about their social structure, eating habits, stamina, sense of danger, and a whole lot of other things. Even now, the DWR biologists are learning new things they didn't know about deer (and elk) per the migration studies. If half of those Parowan WILD deer couldn't make the changes from one WILD place to another WILD place and didn't add anything to the Pahvant herd population, what chance do farm-raised deer have of adding to any WILD population? We might learn some things, but it would be a waste of time and money to try to add to the herd populations, just like the Parowan transplants were!

Why release does? Let’s release bucks to hunt! Keep the does to raise more bucks!

 

[SS!]

Kudos to the RMEF for bringing back elk. Hey MDF take notes!!

 

[2lumpy]

Not an unreasonable question to ponder.

If the last 30 years are any indication. And they maybe, based on some of the following things listed below.

Significant mule deer decline.

The F & G Departments claim they have tried everything they know how to do, yet at the same time they claim in spite of all they’ve done and all the money that has been spent, weather is the one thing that can cure the problem and that’s beyond they control. The continued decline of mule deer is their stated evidence that they are correct.

Highway speeds are extremely deadly.

Predators are not worth attempting to control because when you kill them, it triggers a more aggressive and hyper reproduction, actually causing greater predation, and more mule deer loss to predator loss.

The human population of the mule deer range is explaining rapidly and the demographic scientists are predicting and State/City planning commissioners are planning and developing much larger cities and much less mule deer range, in all 9 western States.

While there is a stated Nation wide decline in the public’s interest in hunting, demand for more and more mule deer hunting permits and mule deer hunting opportunities has been increasing at a rate of approximately of 10% per year, compounding every year.

Hunter success rates have not declined.

Fawn survival has been and continues to remain at below mule deer herd growth replacement rates.

Invasive plant species have encroached on the winter range and possibly on the summer range as well. Fewer pounds of mule deer preferred feed are available on a finite acreage.

Elk may or may not be competing with mule deer but they have a much larger presences on the landscape than they had at the perk of the mule deer populations.

There is more vehicular and human traffic every year on the mule deer summer and winter range.

More natural water systems are being altered and few of those alterations benefit mule deer.

Well there are more but you get the idea. Reversing the decline of mule deer, at least on public lands, don’t look very likely. certainly not based on what’s happened over the last three decades.

To your question:

If possible, would you be for or against supplementing our big game animal supply via farms?​

Personal opinion only of course: Yes, I would. There is a BUT that comes with my….. Yes

Most hunters will be opposed to it………at this time. Maybe all are.

I’m looking forward to after I’m gone and most of the current hunters have lost interest because mule are no longer a viable hunting species, or like me they’ll be dead. At that time…………. future hunters may very well be willing to raise and hunt farm/ranch raised mule deer.

Based on hunter surveys and Public comments, hunters and F & G agencies are going to keep hunting the declining mule deer populations until they are no longer a viable wild big game species. Many have stated they expect it will happen and they intend to hunt them until they are gone or no longer viable to hunt. In truth, it’s getting to be a more common believe. Some admit publicly and others do believe it but won’t admit it out loud, yet.

If that is true, and I wish it weren’t, “put and take” mule deer in of some form is very likely. It’s exactly what’s happened in a lot of countries in Africa, so as adherent as it seems, there are plenty of folks out there who already know how to do it successful.

Take a hunting trip to South Africa, if you doubt me.

Well……. Sorry……You asked.

 

[Gunnihunter]

That’s not a bad idea, but a terrible idea. Why not just shoot the deer behind the fences with a government tag? At least, don’t release diseased and genetically engineered animals into the wild. Ask Fauci, he’ll tell you what gets him paid, like all that think the government will do what is right. Sheesh ? You have just lived and witnessed what they will do.

 

[2lumpy]

That’s not a bad idea, but a terrible idea. Why not just shoot the deer behind the fences with a government tag? At least, don’t release diseased and genetically engineered animals into the wild. Ask Fauci, he’ll tell you what gets him paid, like all that think the government will do what is right. Sheesh ? You have just lived and witnessed what they will do.

Maybe a 150,000 acre private ranch, that includes current winter and summer range, with current native flora and fauna.
Then would it work?

All the tags and management is already government. You like how it’s working now so I’m assuming you might prefer that. Not sure, just assuming.

 

[SS!]

Interesting scenarios to ponder over a whisky drink

 

[2lumpy]

Yup……..cept, whiskey makes me puke. But I’ve bought a lot for friends that need it. I consider it an advantage……..?

 

[Vitalwave]

I would rather hunt wild but also think it could be an idea worth exploring on an isolated unit somewhere. There might be some hybrid vigor or other genetic advantages as well if you mixed in some new blood into a herd. I’m not smart enough to understand how that works but seems like a mutt dog lives longer than pure bred.

 

[Gunnihunter]

Maybe a 150,000 acre private ranch, that includes current winter and summer range, with current native flora and fauna.
Then would it work?

All the tags and management is already government. You like how it’s working now so I’m assuming you might prefer that. Not sure, just assuming.

You assume wrong. 150,000 acre private land is nothing. But a perfect place to screw everything up. I don’t believe the government does anything that is altruistic or without malice. With our current government it’s all about agenda. Like I wrote, you’ve already lived through it and witness it everyday.

 

[2lumpy]

I agree, I agree. How about if the private land owner does it, for a profit. (Kinda like they do now.). The government don’t do it in Africa.

 

[hossblur]

We have that now. Commercial(high fence) units.

I've been giving Tri crap for years that Utah doesn't want to be Texas.

But apparently, I'm wrong. There are actually dudes in here, that DO want to be like Texas.

If we are going to "plant" farm raised deer, and despite how you package it, they are farm raised. Then why not exotics? Why not high fences everywhere? Why not bait? Why not drones, why not thermals? After all, you can just plant a few more, right?

Why not whitetails? They adapt better.

Why not selective breeding then? I mean we do want big bucks right? They do it with whitetails, why not muleys?

What could go wrong?

CWD.

For those not paying attention. A disease that threatens hunting more than any PETA member could dream for, CAME FROM DEER FARMS.

And you guys want more deer farms?


PR.

"Cecil" the lion wasn't enough? Now we will get a barrage of "Sam" the deer, videos.


$$$

How long until THE DON convinces legislators that selling a "minor" amount of GPS coordinates of genetically superior bucks from the breeding process, could bring in millions to "aid in conservation". We could auction off at the expo?

 

[OutdoorWriter]

I agree, I agree. How about if the private land owner does it, for a profit. (Kinda like they do now.). The government don’t do it in Africa.

If you're referring to SA where private reserves are the norm, I would have given up hunting long ago if that was all that was available here. Besides, that's already available in Texas.

 

[gundog2]

I’d rather try hunt closures or set up restricted hunting areas within hunt units where wild deer have refuge. If we are at a point where we have to restock deer to keep hunting then I suggest it may be time to curtail hunting for awhile. I know they say hunting buck deer has no affect on herd size, but I do not believe everything I hear.

 

[2lumpy]

I’d rather try hunt closures or set up restricted hunting areas within hunt units where wild deer have refuge. If we are at a point where we have to restock deer to keep hunting then I suggest it may be time to curtail hunting for awhile. I know they say hunting buck deer has no affect on herd size, but I do not believe everything I hear.

I agree. And so do a lot of others. But………. that strategy has fallen on deaf ears…… as most can see…….. that’s my point…… they refuse to make closures……. so once the mule deer are gone……. will hunters of the future turn to farm raised mule deer……. I believe they will. Personally, I wouldn’t be one of them but I’m from a different time and age.

 

[2lumpy]

If you're referring to SA where private reserves are the norm, I would have given up hunting long ago if that was all that was available here. Besides, that's already available in Texas.

As would most us, however it’s not you and I that are going to live under those conditions, just like you and didn’t live and hunt during the age of John Colter, Huge Glass and Jedediah Smith. The next generation will look at what this generation left them and may be think and behave differently, based on what their environment presents.

I said, Yes……but

“Most hunters will be opposed to it………at this time. Maybe all are.

I’m looking forward to after I’m gone and most of the current hunters have lost interest because mule are no longer a viable hunting species, or like me they’ll be dead. At that time…………. future hunters may very well be willing to raise and hunt farm/ranch raised mule deer.”

Sure seems like we heading in that direction. F & G can’t or won’t do what needs to be done……….. at least when it comes to mule deer.

 

[OutdoorWriter]

Change is always inevitable. Sometimes, it ain't so great, however.

 

[2lumpy]

It took 40 years for me to learn that……. hard headed than most I guess.

Change is always inevitable. Sometimes, it ain't so great, however.

View attachment 73700

 

[Vitalwave]

Interesting subject for sure. I guess my original thought wasn't to completely replace the wild herd with farm raised but rather supplement in order to boost the numbers. I'm not even sure it would be possible or that the animal would become as wild/hearty as the natural herd? I just think its an idea worth exploring as another option considering the direction we are headed. It seems to work with fish and I have never talked to someone that stopped fishing because the fish were born in a hatchery.

 

[grizzly]

DWR and partners launch first desert bighorn sheep nursery in Utah

The Utah Division of Wildlife Resources is partnering with Young Living to create the SkyRider Wilderness Ranch — the first "nursery" for desert bighorn sheep in Utah — in an effort to help grow the species' population in the state.

wildlife.utah.gov

 

[SS!]

View attachment 73703

DWR and partners launch first desert bighorn sheep nursery in Utah

The Utah Division of Wildlife Resources is partnering with Young Living to create the SkyRider Wilderness Ranch — the first "nursery" for desert bighorn sheep in Utah — in an effort to help grow the species' population in the state.

wildlife.utah.gov

Sheep are snowflakes!

 

[SS!]

I picked wild strawberries, blueberries and raspberries every year. When winter comes I don’t think twice about buying farm raised.

It’s time for Utah to lead the way again. First it’s was harassing wildlife to the point of shed seasons, posse hunting, hunting influencers, “conservation” tags and now this.

No one will care if they possibly kill a raised deer as long as they get a deer.

 

[2lumpy]

Interesting subject for sure. I guess my original thought wasn't to completely replace the wild herd with farm raised but rather supplement in order to boost the numbers. I'm not even sure it would be possible or that the animal would become as wild/hearty as the natural herd? I just think its an idea worth exploring as another option considering the direction we are headed. It seems to work with fish and I have never talked to someone that stopped fishing because the fish were born in a hatchery.

If the farm/ranch was large enough and already had a wild population of mule deer, growing that wild herd from a population of 1,000 to 2.000 would give you an extra 1,000 wild mule deer to release. These 1,000 would have wild instincts, the same as their wild parents. They could be hunted on the ranch or released from the ranch. It wouldn’t be that different than some large farming/ranchers are already doing. Fact is, if the F & G agencies turned it over to framers and ranchers right now and paid them to grow wild mule deer……. I’m betting they could do it surprising well and surprisingly quick.

I’m NOT talking about game farms, I’m talking about farms with game. There is a huge difference.

Think about the difference.

 

[Gator]

Raising deer Vs Pheasants is funny as hell.
We do turn out hens every year and they do reproduce.
How much land do you have to raise deer(lots of does) on that would be natural for them so when they are turned loose they would already be able to stay alive.
Now with Hen pheasants we try and turn them loose where we see and find wild hens already and we do have a pretty good return on those birds.
last years we saw more hens in Nov then ever before so it does show it works.
Would it work in a herd of wild deer?????

 

[2lumpy]

Good comments Gator. My, unproven theory…… ? would be to try raising deer, to behave as wild deer, thinking they would fair better, if raised as much like wild deer vs game farm deer. They would know how to elude predators better, find water better, utilize wild forbes better, if they grew up in a pseudo-wild environment, that deer raised on 100 acres like game farm elk have been raised.

Theory only……. What the hell would I know about it anyway. ???

 

[hossblur]

View attachment 73703

DWR and partners launch first desert bighorn sheep nursery in Utah

The Utah Division of Wildlife Resources is partnering with Young Living to create the SkyRider Wilderness Ranch — the first "nursery" for desert bighorn sheep in Utah — in an effort to help grow the species' population in the state.

wildlife.utah.gov

Worked great on AI

 

[elkfromabove]

Worked great on AI

Oh?
In 2015, some of those Antelope Island deer were moved to Elk Ridge and some were moved to Mt Dutton.

Elk Ridge objective = 5,600
Elk Ridge deer population 2016 = 900
Elk Ridge deer population 2021 = 950

Mt Dutton objective = 2,700
Mt Dutton deer population 2016 = 2,800
Mt Dutton deer population 2021 = 2,000

I don't know what happened to them all, but I can tell you that they and their offspring didn't do much to increase the herd numbers, especially when you consider the objectives. Just dumping more deer (does or bucks) into the habitat doesn't help grow the populations.

 

[elkfromabove]

I picked wild strawberries, blueberries and raspberries every year. When winter comes I don’t think twice about buying farm raised.

It’s time for Utah to lead the way again. First it’s was harassing wildlife to the point of shed seasons, posse hunting, hunting influencers, “conservation” tags and now this.

No one will care if they possibly kill a raised deer as long as they get a deer.

They may not care about the results of a kill, but as we've learned lately, most of them/us care about the way it's hunted, even by other hunters.

Also, FWIW- The DWR does care about the wild trout in some waters. That's why they have daily species limits, slot limits, no keep regulations and closed spawning waters. I once spent 3 days clipping fins on hatchery fingerlings so that fishermen would know whether or not they could keep the ones they caught. (Maybe we'll have to clip off the black ends of the tails of hatchery deer, huh

 

[SS!]

Oh?
In 2015, some of those Antelope Island deer were moved to Elk Ridge and some were moved to Mt Dutton.

Elk Ridge objective = 5,600
Elk Ridge deer population 2016 = 900
Elk Ridge deer population 2021 = 950

Mt Dutton objective = 2,700
Mt Dutton deer population 2016 = 2,800
Mt Dutton deer population 2021 = 2,000

I don't know what happened to them all, but I can tell you that they and their offspring didn't do much to increase the herd numbers, especially when you consider the objectives. Just dumping more deer (does or bucks) into the habitat doesn't help grow the populations.

You’re getting confused here. The transplants are not to grow the population. It’s to give animals to shoot.

 

[slamdunk]

Why go to all the trouble when they will suffer the same demise as wild raised.....probably worse actually.

Let's work on fixing the natural process.

 

[elkfromabove]

You’re getting confused here. The transplants are not to grow the population. It’s to give animals to shoot.

So, you'll only release the bucks who have been weaned? Then what do we do with the doe fawns? Or does the hatchery also become an after-birth abortion clinic? Or do we have doe hunts within the hatchery? Or a clipped tail doe hunts outside of the hatchery?

 

[SS!]

So, you'll only release the bucks who have been weaned? Then what do we do with the doe fawns? Or does the hatchery also become an after-birth abortion clinic? Or do we have doe hunts within the hatchery? Or a clipped tail doe hunts outside of the hatchery?

Keep the does for breeding stock you sillly billy! Once the does get old you could release them too. They do the same with the fish hatchery and no one complains when they catch them…

 

[Bluehair]

Yup……..cept, whiskey makes me puke. But I’ve bought a lot for friends that need it. I consider it an advantage……..?

God bless you and DD’s everywhere.

I’m from the tribe that drank to make everyone else more interesting. Those were the old days though as I haven’t had a hangover in 7 years.

 

[2lumpy]

God bless you and DD’s everywhere.

I’m from the tribe that drank to make everyone else more interesting. Those were the old days though as I haven’t had a hangover in 7 years.

The strangest feelings came over me when I’d get drunk……….. I’d get this irresistible urge to wrap my arms around and lay my head on a toilet bowl. Damnedest thing……….

 

[Anaconda]

For years I have believed the way to increase and stabilize primary game animal populations is a rotating “no tags” year every four or five years.

State wildlife officials should identify game management units that are below objective, and units where the buck to doe or bull to cow ratio is out of whak.

Then, every five years, issue no tags or doe/cow tags only for specific units.

The schedule would be public knowledge well in advance so everybody could plan accordingly.

If needed, there could be an increase in predator hunts that the same year. More wolf/lion/bear tags.

This would only disrupt regulars yearly hunting once every five years and with time to plan, they could drive a few miles and try hunting a new unit.

Every year, millions of immature bucks and bulls get taken. Given an extra year to grow, the age class would increase, the population would increase. With an occasional year to breed and birth un molested, recruitment would increase.

 

[OutdoorWriter]

I’m from the tribe that drank to make everyone else more interesting. Those were the old days though as I haven’t had a hangover in 7 years.

Aaahh, the years when the phrase, "coyote ugly," was coined. Last call always produced an evening with a happy ending regardless...

 

[2lumpy]

For years I have believed the way to increase and stabilize primary game animal populations is a rotating “no tags” year every four or five years.

State wildlife officials should identify game management units that are below objective, and units where the buck to doe or bull to cow ratio is out of whak.

Then, every five years, issue no tags or doe/cow tags only for specific units.

The schedule would be public knowledge well in advance so everybody could plan accordingly.

If needed, there could be an increase in predator hunts that the same year. More wolf/lion/bear tags.

This would only disrupt regulars yearly hunting once every five years and with time to plan, they could drive a few miles and try hunting a new unit.

Every year, millions of immature bucks and bulls get taken. Given an extra year to grow, the age class would increase, the population would increase. With an occasional year to breed and birth un molested, recruitment would increase.

Another excellent way to do “something” worth while to make a difference. It has been suggested by others over the years……. deaf ears.

“Too much trouble, besides it’s the weather….. silly. Your seeing the data wrong too.” You need a nap.

 

[hossblur]

For years I have believed the way to increase and stabilize primary game animal populations is a rotating “no tags” year every four or five years.

State wildlife officials should identify game management units that are below objective, and units where the buck to doe or bull to cow ratio is out of whak.

Then, every five years, issue no tags or doe/cow tags only for specific units.

The schedule would be public knowledge well in advance so everybody could plan accordingly.

If needed, there could be an increase in predator hunts that the same year. More wolf/lion/bear tags.

This would only disrupt regulars yearly hunting once every five years and with time to plan, they could drive a few miles and try hunting a new unit.

Every year, millions of immature bucks and bulls get taken. Given an extra year to grow, the age class would increase, the population would increase. With an occasional year to breed and birth un molested, recruitment would increase.

I kinda agree with this.

Only the public should NOT be given a heads up. If your unit gets closed, you get a refund.

Otherwise, you shut a unit, and screw guys who don't chase all over with dudes chasing.

 

[elkfromabove]

And if we wait for the does to get old, we'll double the breeding doe population every year for the first 6 years, which means we'll have 63 times the number of breeders we start with. After that we'll have to remove the same number as are born in order to maintain the nursery habitat. So, if we start with 10, we'll have to remove 630 every year after the first 6 years. And that's just the does! That's a lot of deer to remove no matter how you do it!

 

[SS!]

And if we wait for the does to get old, we'll double the breeding doe population every year for the first 6 years, which means we'll have 63 times the number of breeders we start with. After that we'll have to remove the same number as are born in order to maintain the nursery habitat. So, if we start with 10, we'll have to remove 630 every year after the first 6 years. And that's just the does! That's a lot of deer to remove no matter how you do it!

no such thing as too many deer.

 

[andrew12gauge]

There aren’t a lot of high fence mule deer operations for a reason I suspect, they just aren’t as adaptable as whitetails.

 

[SS!]

There aren’t a lot of high fence mule deer operations for a reason I suspect, they just aren’t as adaptable as whitetails.

You think or you know? Works in Mexico. Why not here?

 

[andrew12gauge]

I think it works in Mexico when they come in and put a fence around a very large ranch with a deer herd already in place, but there is no moving or transplanting of deer going on. You certainly don’t see a high fence deer trade going on like in the whitetail world. I will say it could be a good test but don’t use “wild” deer, use those deer that have adapted to human presence on the landscape for the “hatchery” program and maybe solve some of the urban deer issues at the same time, then at least if/when the program fails it’s not a total loss

 

[SS!]

I think it works in Mexico when they come in and put a fence around a very large ranch with a deer herd already in place, but there is no moving or transplanting of deer going on. You certainly don’t see a high fence deer trade going on like in the whitetail world. I will say it could be a good test but don’t use “wild” deer, use those deer that have adapted to human presence on the landscape for the “hatchery” program and maybe solve some of the urban deer issues at the same time, then at least if/when the program fails it’s not a total loss

You sure do “think” a lot. The reason you don’t see a deer trade for muleys in the US is because it’s illegal. It works for elk, deer, every type of animals besides great white sharks so why wouldn’t it work for mule deer? FFS ?‍

 

[2lumpy]

When it comes to wildlife science……. I’ve come to believe there’s a lot more modern pseudoscience science than there is proven science. Theories rule!

 

[Bigwiffy]

We have that now. Commercial(high fence) units.

I've been giving Tri crap for years that Utah doesn't want to be Texas.

But apparently, I'm wrong. There are actually dudes in here, that DO want to be like Texas.

If we are going to "plant" farm raised deer, and despite how you package it, they are farm raised. Then why not exotics? Why not high fences everywhere? Why not bait? Why not drones, why not thermals? After all, you can just plant a few more, right?

Why not whitetails? They adapt better.

Why not selective breeding then? I mean we do want big bucks right? They do it with whitetails, why not muleys?

What could go wrong?

CWD.

For those not paying attention. A disease that threatens hunting more than any PETA member could dream for, CAME FROM DEER FARMS.

And you guys want more deer farms?


PR.

"Cecil" the lion wasn't enough? Now we will get a barrage of "Sam" the deer, videos.


$$$

How long until THE DON convinces legislators that selling a "minor" amount of GPS coordinates of genetically superior bucks from the breeding process, could bring in millions to "aid in conservation". We could auction off at the expo?

Finally you make sense even though you didn't mean to. Whitetails will thrive here when more get here.

 

[elkfromabove]

no such thing as too many deer.

Glad to hear that 'cause I'd love to see baiting allowed back in Utah. (Regulated, of course.)

 

[hossblur]

Glad to hear that 'cause I'd love to see baiting allowed back in Utah. (Regulated, of course.)

Is that by the ton? Or bushel?

 

[D33RHNTR]

Since when has utah struggled to grow elk in the wild on its own?

 

[elkfromabove]

Is that by the ton? Or bushel?

By the pound, # of sites, location of sites, type of bait, registration with a fee, removal schedule, site identification of owner, and whatever else we may need to keep us both happy.

BUT what difference does it make if there can never be too many deer?

 

[hossblur]

I thought "we" weren't for rules that were unenforceable.

Each apple needs a tag?

Yes, you actually can have too many deer.

Lots of whitetail states have that

 

[SS!]

Yes, you actually can have too many deer.

Lots of whitetail states have that

Send in the utards. They will kill them off and then blame predators because while driving around they saw a coyote.

 

[DeerHunter53]

I have a thought I wanted to explore with you all.... You know how millions of fish are stocked into our lakes and streams each year? Could they do that same thing with deer and elk? Im talking about raising herds of deer and elk in such a way that they could release them onto the landscape to assimilate into the natural herds?

There are tons of debates going around right now about "restricting this" or "changing that" and when its comes down to it the bulk of the issue is supply and demand related. We have huge hunting demand which is exceeding our wildlife supply. If we could somehow get the supply up then we probably would make a lot of folks happy. The trophy people would be happy and the opportunity people would be happy. They do it with pheasants already to some degree but I am not sure if it would even be possible with big game?

I am not sure how I feel about this idea and am certain there would be a lot to it. I don't know if its even possible? Just curious what you all think...

@slamdunk @elkhunterUT

How do you think all of those elk got back into the East. We transplanted them from wild stock here in the West.
So we have been doing this to some extent already

 

[elkfromabove]

I thought "we" weren't for rules that were unenforceable.

Each apple needs a tag?

Yes, you actually can have too many deer.

Lots of whitetail states have that

We enforce those rules already with bear baits and trap lines!

No need to tag each apple/salt block/food pellet/pine nut/acorn. A visible tag at the site will do.

Sounds like we need to transplant some whitetails from those deer overcrowded states to Utah and Nevada. And since whitetails can live on just a few acres, we can manage them (and hunters) a lot better than the mule deer who migrate.

 

[Vanilla]

I don't know where this discussion turned away, but going back to the original question: we don't need to farm elk in Utah. We don't have any issue growing elk.

The deer on the other hand are not as easy. As EFA cited above, the transplant studies show they simply don't work. There are a lot of reasons for that, but really all that matters is we've tried that here and it has shown to be ineffective, so while I like the thinking outside the box, I don't think it would work.

 

[SS!]

Let the RMEF take over the MDF and you’ll see Mule deer on the rebound.

 

[Bluehair]

Trout got whirling disease and deer got CWD from hatcheries.

 

[OutdoorWriter]

Trout got whirling disease and deer got CWD from hatcheries.

Sssssssshhhhhhhhh.

 

[JPickett]

this sounds like a great idea. i can see the Utard flat brim crews sitting 1000 yards above the pens where these deer and elk are raised with there spotting scopes out naming bucks "mackdaddyG1, buckzilla! and BB200"!" then posting all over the gram about the back country extreme hunt and all the mountain opp's supplements its going to take to "get it done!!!"

sounds very Utah. i say go for it

 

[SS!]

this sounds like a great idea. i can see the Utard flat brim crews sitting 1000 yards above the pens where these deer and elk are raised with there spotting scopes out naming bucks "mackdaddyG1, buckzilla! and BB200"!" then posting all over the gram about the back country extreme hunt and all the mountain opp's supplements its going to take to "get it done!!!"

sounds very Utah. i say go for it

More like ear tag names. Hey bro I shot buck 1134

 

[hossblur]

Trout got whirling disease and deer got CWD from hatcheries.

Yeah, but that hatchery was owned by the governor's family, so at least they got rich

 

[hossblur]

this sounds like a great idea. i can see the Utard flat brim crews sitting 1000 yards above the pens where these deer and elk are raised with there spotting scopes out naming bucks "mackdaddyG1, buckzilla! and BB200"!" then posting all over the gram about the back country extreme hunt and all the mountain opp's supplements its going to take to "get it done!!!"

sounds very Utah. i say go for it

No need to visualize.

This was watching a town deer in Payson, Ut.


You can also hire guides in Utah to chase deer out of campground/no hunting areas, so you can shoot it, allegedly. Right WLH?

 

[JPickett]

that pictures almost funnier then the jimmy johns guy with 30 people standing around his bull. true back-country extremist you have down there in tardville

 

[andrew12gauge]

You sure do “think” a lot. The reason you don’t see a deer trade for muleys in the US is because it’s illegal. It works for elk, deer, every type of animals besides great white sharks so why wouldn’t it work for mule deer? FFS ?‍

Please show me the law that says you can’t have a captive mule deer herd, federally since of course there are some states that outlaw it

 

[hossblur]

that pictures almost funnier then the jimmy johns guy with 30 people standing around his bull. true back-country extremist you have down there in tardville

Only thing funnier is knowing it got killed via Toyota truck

 

[BrowningRage]

I'm not okay with doing this to supplement our wild herds. Many of the reasons have been listed above.

However, I'm starting to think a good idea would be to designate a small unit as the Western Hunting and Conservation Expo unit... We simply grow deer and elk and put them out there to be hunted by auction tag holders... Then we use the money raised to help the wild herds... Trophy hunters get their trophies (on public land so they can get their name in a magazine or book), and we use the money for the rest of our herds too...

 

[SS!]

Please show me the law that says you can’t have a captive mule deer herd, federally since of course there are some states that outlaw it

It’s up to each state. Here’s Utah’s since we are talking about Utah:

R657-3: Collection, importation, possession (CIP)

This rule governs the collection, importation, exportation, transportation and possession of animals and their parts.

wildlife.utah.gov

 

[OutdoorWriter]

It’s up to each state. Here’s Utah’s since we are talking about Utah:

R657-3: Collection, importation, possession (CIP)

This rule governs the collection, importation, exportation, transportation and possession of animals and their parts.

wildlife.utah.gov

(x) Mule deer, (Odocoileus hemionus) family Cervidae is prohibited for collection, importation and possession;

 

[andrew12gauge]

It’s up to each state. Here’s Utah’s since we are talking about Utah:

R657-3: Collection, importation, possession (CIP)

This rule governs the collection, importation, exportation, transportation and possession of animals and their parts.

wildlife.utah.gov

So again why aren’t there high fence mule deer hunting operations all over the states like there are for whitetail? If they are just as easy to grow and they can sell giant whitetails behind a fence for the coin they do, logic and reason would dictate there would be many operations, especially in Texas selling high fence mule deer hunts. But everything I’ve ever heard is you can’t transplant mule deer successfully, makes me think they also wouldn’t do well being raised in captivity. They simply seem for the most part to be less adaptable to human encroachment on their habitat than whitetails.

 

[SS!]

So again why aren’t there high fence mule deer hunting operations all over the states like there are for whitetail? If they are just as easy to grow and they can sell giant whitetails behind a fence for the coin they do, logic and reason would dictate there would be many operations, especially in Texas selling high fence mule deer hunts. But everything I’ve ever heard is you can’t transplant mule deer successfully, makes me think they also wouldn’t do well being raised in captivity. They simply seem for the most part to be less adaptable to human encroachment on their habitat than whitetails.

Are you that dense? It’s because it’s illegal. Say it with me, illegal. It has NOTHING to do with and I quote “do well in captivity”.

How many high fenced whitetail operations in Utah?

 

[BeDawg]

This whole debacle is rediculous. I will give up hunting mule deer if they aren’t wild grown. Supplementation will do nothing to remedy the multiple problems behind declining population.

 

[elkfromabove]

How do you think all of those elk got back into the East. We transplanted them from wild stock here in the West.
So we have been doing this to some extent already

Historically, elk once roamed the states east of the Mississippi, but were driven out and/or exterminated by white settlers. So we are just trying to re-establish them with the transplants.

On the other hand, mule deer NEVER did live east of the Mississippi, so trying to transplant them there would make them an invasive species.

 

[elkfromabove]

This whole debacle is rediculous. I will give up hunting mule deer if they aren’t wild grown. Supplementation will do nothing to remedy the multiple problems behind declining population.

In fact, it would likely make it worse! There are reasons why they aren't in some of the areas that they used to be in or that appear to be good habitat. We may not know the reasons, but the deer sure do and until we address and remedy those problems, we're pissing in the wind!

 

[andrew12gauge]

Are you that dense? It’s because it’s illegal. Say it with me, illegal. It has NOTHING to do with and I quote “do well in captivity”.

How many high fenced whitetail operations in Utah?

I think you are the one who is dense, you obviously have no reading comprehension, I’d be surprised if you made it past the 3rd grade. Go back to my original hypothesis about mule deer not doing well in captivity and why there isn’t a NATIONWIDE trade in captive mule deer like there is with elk and whitetails. I understand it is illegal in some states, just as captive whitetails and elk are outlawed in some states, however you cannot for 1 moment try to tell me mule deer are illegal to put behind a high fence in Texas, because they will put anything behind a fence and shoot it in Texas, so please explain to me why every one of those high fence ranches in Texas isn’t selling “trophy” mule deer hunts for $100,000. I’m basing my hypothesis that mule deer do poorly in captivity on anecdotal evidence that transplanted mule deer have poor survival rates, winter feeding doesn’t seem to help mule deer during heavy winters, and it seems to me each deer herd has adapted specifically to the range/environment that they live on and are generally unable to survive when placed into a new environment, so yes I’m guessing that taking a bunch of random mule deer and sticking them in a high fence who knows where in order to try to pen raise deer would be an exercise in futility as even if you can get them to rear young in captivity the odds of any of those deer surviving the moment you drop them on a new landscape that isn’t even able to support a healthy herd of deer naturally is somewhere really close to zero. Of course I’m now realizing that in no way will you SS ever be able to comprehend the words that I’ve typed here but maybe you have someone in your life with a GED or HS diploma who can read it to you so you can formulate another response that in no way ties in to the question at hand

 

[SS!]

I think you are the one who is dense, you obviously have no reading comprehension, I’d be surprised if you made it past the 3rd grade. Go back to my original hypothesis about mule deer not doing well in captivity and why there isn’t a NATIONWIDE trade in captive mule deer like there is with elk and whitetails. I understand it is illegal in some states, just as captive whitetails and elk are outlawed in some states, however you cannot for 1 moment try to tell me mule deer are illegal to put behind a high fence in Texas, because they will put anything behind a fence and shoot it in Texas, so please explain to me why every one of those high fence ranches in Texas isn’t selling “trophy” mule deer hunts for $100,000. I’m basing my hypothesis that mule deer do poorly in captivity on anecdotal evidence that transplanted mule deer have poor survival rates, winter feeding doesn’t seem to help mule deer during heavy winters, and it seems to me each deer herd has adapted specifically to the range/environment that they live on and are generally unable to survive when placed into a new environment, so yes I’m guessing that taking a bunch of random mule deer and sticking them in a high fence who knows where in order to try to pen raise deer would be an exercise in futility as even if you can get them to rear young in captivity the odds of any of those deer surviving the moment you drop them on a new landscape that isn’t even able to support a healthy herd of deer naturally is somewhere really close to zero. Of course I’m now realizing that in no way will you SS ever be able to comprehend the words that I’ve typed here but maybe you have someone in your life with a GED or HS diploma who can read it to you so you can formulate another response that in no way ties in to the question at hand

I didn’t read this long reply but I’ve been around long enough to know I’ve hurt your feelings. That was not my intention and for that I am sorry. It should be illegal to do that. Wait crap, you don’t know what that word means. Sorry.

 

[andrew12gauge]

I didn’t read this long reply but I’ve been around long enough to know I’ve hurt your feelings. That was not my intention and for that I am sorry. It should be illegal to do that. Wait crap, you don’t know what that word means. Sorry.

No feelings hurt, I do understand it is illegal to have a high fence mule deer operation in Utah however the rest of the nation may not all be the same, so please explain to me why there aren’t high fence mule deer hunts being sold in Texas?

 

[SS!]

No feelings hurt, I do understand it is illegal to have a high fence mule deer operation in Utah however the rest of the nation may not all be the same, so please explain to me why there aren’t high fence mule deer hunts being sold in Texas?

Look it up. I already spoon fed you the Utah law. I don’t give two focks about Texas.