Final Muzzleloader Scope Committee Recommendation

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I'll TRYone last time to explain it as simple as possible.

The relatively "short range" rifle, (muzzleloader) was intended to be a primitive style of hunt that has obviously gotten out of what it's intended purpose was.

The ALW hunt is for ANYTHING "legal" that ANYONE wants to use to be successful at punching a tag.
Want to use an airgun.....go for it.
50BMG.....go for it.


The fate is not sealed, the WB makes the final decision.
Don’t try to come up with logical thoughts and observations. We don’t live in a world of “logic” or “what’s best for the greater good”. We live in the world of “what’s best for me is best!” I’ve posted 3 times on this thread about switching seasons around. Put the general muzzy hunt in mid to late October and let them keep the scopes. Put ALW seasons before them. See if the muzzy scope boys go for that. The reality is that the current muzzy regs allow hunters to use a firearm with 3-500 yard capabilities, before any other rifle season, with less pressure. That’s what the fight is about. All you folks out there standing on your hill for scopes, answer this:

Would you be ok with keeping scopes but making general muzzy season the 2nd or 3rd rifle hunt?
 
Hey Niller!

Turn It Way Up LOUD!:D



I don’t get why this went from discussion about technology regulations to a long schlong contest, but here we are!

I’d suggest if people don’t like the way things are going, then get involved. The world is run by those that show up.

I posted this in one of the other muzzy scope threads, but I’ll reiterate it here. I’ve been pretty torn on this topic all along. I still don’t have strong feelings either way. I think the question for policy makers should be this:

Do we (the proverbial “we,” not anything else to avoid confusion on that term on this thread) want the muzzy hunts to be different than they are? If the policy makers in Utah want that, then they should implement the necessary changes and move on. If the policy makers are okay with where things are at, let’s quit wasting time on it.

I used to hunt muzzy exclusively for deer many years ago. I only ever shot open sight muzzies and was never great at it. I killed a couple deer along the way. I might be muzzy hunting in a little over a week, and the gun I’ll be using if I do is VERY different than what I used to use 12 years ago. Very, very different.

If “we” are okay with that very real difference, then so be it. There isn’t anything morally wrong about these new guns. It’s just a policy decision that needs to be made. And I’m still not sure what the best policy is.
 
Don’t try to come up with logical thoughts and observations. We don’t live in a world of “logic” or “what’s best for the greater good”. We live in the world of “what’s best for me is best!” I’ve posted 3 times on this thread about switching seasons around. Put the general muzzy hunt in mid to late October and let them keep the scopes. Put ALW seasons before them. See if the muzzy scope boys go for that. The reality is that the current muzzy regs allow hunters to use a firearm with 3-500 yard capabilities, before any other rifle season, with less pressure. That’s what the fight is about. All you folks out there standing on your hill for scopes, answer this:

Would you be ok with keeping scopes but making general muzzy season the 2nd or 3rd rifle hunt?
Just a reminder that elk muzzleloader hunts already are after the elk rifle hunts.
 
Ya!

And Somebody Is Gonna Be PISSED!

The Tail End Of The RUT Has Landed In The First Part Of Some Of The MUZZ Elk Hunts For A Few Years Now!

It's Been kinda Tough On Some Of The Archery Elk Hunts So Far This Year!

I Expect Some Or Everybody To BAWL!







Just a reminder that elk muzzleloader hunts already are after the elk rifle hunts.
 
Don’t try to come up with logical thoughts and observations. We don’t live in a world of “logic” or “what’s best for the greater good”. We live in the world of “what’s best for me is best!” I’ve posted 3 times on this thread about switching seasons around. Put the general muzzy hunt in mid to late October and let them keep the scopes. Put ALW seasons before them. See if the muzzy scope boys go for that. The reality is that the current muzzy regs allow hunters to use a firearm with 3-500 yard capabilities, before any other rifle season, with less pressure. That’s what the fight is about. All you folks out there standing on your hill for scopes, answer this:

Would you be ok with keeping scopes but making general muzzy season the 2nd or 3rd rifle hunt?
I know it’s already been said many times - let’s make it the last hunt like it originally was - you know a early November rut hunt. But that will never happen. It’s not about saving deer -remember????
 
It is only a recommendation at this point. The WB makes the final call. I will say that I absolutely hate the COR option. If you will allow a 1x for COR, you should allow it for all. Same with cross bows. CORs are easily obtained. If the board really wants to choke down on muzzies, they should do it without exception, and if that pisses off enough of their customers who have poor eye sight, then they should allow 1x for all. You can't have it both ways. Set a reasonable regulation that the vast majority can participate in, and if it doesn't work for some, they can move onto a different weapon or sport. I can guarantee there will be more people abusing the COR loopholes than there are people who currently shoot beyond 300 yards.
 
You calling for help Hossy ?
1-800- I need the facts dot com
Lol !

No, I don't. I enjoy when dudes get over their skis.

Lumpy actually made a post, on the how and why the muzzy hunts started. You not reading it, or not comprehending it, is in you.

But much the the rest of your "facts", they ain't real factual.
 
It is only a recommendation at this point. The WB makes the final call. I will say that I absolutely hate the COR option. If you will allow a 1x for COR, you should allow it for all. Same with cross bows. CORs are easily obtained. If the board really wants to choke down on muzzies, they should do it without exception, and if that pisses off enough of their customers who have poor eye sight, then they should allow 1x for all. You can't have it both ways. Set a reasonable regulation that the vast majority can participate in, and if it doesn't work for some, they can move onto a different weapon or sport. I can guarantee there will be more people abusing the COR loopholes than there are people who currently shoot beyond 300 yards.


It is Utah, of course they will
 
I know your not a shooter Hossy
You’ve said it many a time.

Here’s your quote Hossy from post #181
“But either way, the WE that don't spend the weekend sitting on a bench thinking we changed the world adding or subtracting a grain of powder.”


I’m a bit worried that you’re lecturing hunters about shooting and precision as it relates to hunting.
Maybe you should take hunters safety again. Even the short range game may not be for you. Adding that grain of powder could mean the difference between a tumbling or an accurate load.

You better get closer like barrel on the fur closer !

When I took hunters safety we talked about getting close. You thinking that's wrong, says more about you.
 
I don’t get why this went from discussion about technology regulations to a long schlong contest, but here we are!

I’d suggest if people don’t like the way things are going, then get involved. The world is run by those that show up.

I posted this in one of the other muzzy scope threads, but I’ll reiterate it here. I’ve been pretty torn on this topic all along. I still don’t have strong feelings either way. I think the question for policy makers should be this:

Do we (the proverbial “we,” not anything else to avoid confusion on that term on this thread) want the muzzy hunts to be different than they are? If the policy makers in Utah want that, then they should implement the necessary changes and move on. If the policy makers are okay with where things are at, let’s quit wasting time on it.

I used to hunt muzzy exclusively for deer many years ago. I only ever shot open sight muzzies and was never great at it. I killed a couple deer along the way. I might be muzzy hunting in a little over a week, and the gun I’ll be using if I do is VERY different than what I used to use 12 years ago. Very, very different.

If “we” are okay with that very real difference, then so be it. There isn’t anything morally wrong about these new guns. It’s just a policy decision that needs to be made. And I’m still not sure what the best policy is.


This is the discussion cuz it's the easiest to the the rapid tech explosion.

And it's Utah, LR muzzy with self aiming scopes will be the norm in a few years.
 
You’ve said you’re done with me like 10 time. Buy it’s like a bad case of diarrhea. You just can’t stop! ?

So I need to be someone in the hunting world to have an opinion? That perfectly sums up your committee’s attitudes. It also sums up the public input at the WB and RAC meetings. thank you for finally being honest.. Fug everyone else, unless you’re a big deal. They we will listen... maybe. Well I’ve sure killed a lot of **** for being a nobody. Probably more than most of your little committee members have combined. So what does that mean? Nothing. Because I don’t go hunting to gain attention or try to get anything out of it but personal satisfaction. Sounds like status within the “industry” is all you’re concerned about. Unfortunately you just hold the position of knob gobbler. But you have to start somewhere I suppose ??‍♂️

Ps, I’m proud of my criminal record. Bring it up and try to embarrass me with it. It won’t have the slightest impact on me whatsoever. I don’t care. ?


What was your previous name before you got banned?

Always good to know who your talking with
 
No, I don't. I enjoy when dudes get over their skis.

Lumpy actually made a post, on the how and why the muzzy hunts started. You not reading it, or not comprehending it, is in you.

But much the the rest of your "facts", they ain't real factual
Hossy
Please don’t get between Lumpy and I. I have read and enjoyed his posts. He actually brings some facts and useful arguments to the table.

You have directly and indirectly accused me of being in cahoots with elk assassin and bux n dux - which I am not- But I do like them !

Heres something that you’re good at - “Help Me -I’m gettin me arse a whipped -an needs me boys right this second……..

Challenge any of the facts that I have brought -and you will receive actual data - not BS “I KNOW” that was passed down to you from your great great granddaddy.

Until then keep crying for that help.

Lmao !
 
Hossy
Please don’t get between Lumpy and I. I have read and enjoyed his posts. He actually brings some facts and useful arguments to the table.

You have directly and indirectly accused me of being in cahoots with elk assassin and bux n dux - which I am not- But I do like them !

Heres something that you’re good at - “Help Me -I’m gettin me arse a whipped -an needs me boys right this second……..

Challenge any of the facts that I have brought -and you will receive actual data - not BS “I KNOW” that was passed down to you from your great great granddaddy.

Until then keep crying for that help.

Lmao !

I LITERALLY challenged your 1982 "fact", with an interview with Doc White, shooting down your "fact".

I can't do much more than that. But carry on.
 
Deerkiller, you got real quiet, what happened?

Hell son, why be shy? Afraid founder will ban you again?
 
I'll TRYone last time to explain it as simple as possible.

The relatively "short range" rifle, (muzzleloader) was intended to be a primitive style of hunt that has obviously gotten out of what it's intended purpose was.

The ALW hunt is for ANYTHING "legal" that ANYONE wants to use to be successful at punching a tag.
Want to use an airgun.....go for it.
50BMG.....go for it.


The fate is not sealed, the WB makes the final decision.
No reply on the committee effect it had on bows less than 1%, rifles less than 1% and muzzleloaders 90+%?‍♂️
Also if intended for short range (said who)? At the implement of muzz hunts that was all there was. (When the bow hunt started there was only long bows and recurves.) Why is the elk and antelope muzz after rifle? Once again fair my ass. Definitely picking on muzz hunters. You want primitive that’s what the ham hunts were set up for. Not impressed with committee’s thought process across the technology board?
 
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I've been hunting for a month. I picked up a bow, for more OPPURTUNITY. Tried shooting doves last night.

Like most your other "knowledge", you'd be wrong, yet again
For someone that’s been hunting for a month, your post count has been through the roof…. Maybe spend a little more time out of cell service? It would probably do you some good.
 
@Bux n Dux

If your who I think you are, didn't you have a little trouble for poaching?

What did your license plate say
It took you that long and that many clues… you’re a real sharp knife in that drawer…

IMG_3542.jpeg


We were all young and made mistakes once. Like I said, proud of my record… ?
 
Why didn't you just tell us you were Deerkiller?

You shoot that cub with a scoped muzzy?
I wasn’t aware a forum rule said I had to announce who I was when I create a new user name. My bad ?

No, I shot it with a .25-06. Which I had returned to me after everything was said and done. Now how many “poaching” cases are you aware of that the weapon used got returned to the owner after it was seized? ?
 
I wasn’t aware a forum rule said I had to announce who I was when I create a new user name. My bad ?

No, I shot it with a .25-06. Which I had returned to me after everything was said and done. Now how many “poaching” cases are you aware of that the weapon used got returned to the owner after it was seized? ?


You seem defensive.
 
I LITERALLY challenged your 1982 "fact", with an interview with Doc White, shooting down your "fact".

I can't do much more than that. But carry on.

Here’s some facts Hossy. I will give you some credit for some facts - but if you think that doc white was 1st - you are wrong. It really doesn’t matter Hossy. What’s amazing to think (per this article) is how far back the in-line went.

“[Pauley]…was the first to design and patent an…inline action in which the **** of the sidelock was replaced by a cylindrical hammer driven by a coil spring… (1808)”

“The advent of true elongated bullets came about because the English military asked Sir Joseph Whitworth, an acknowledged genius in his own day, to optimize the Minie Ball’s performance, He brought out his famous rifle and new elongated octagonal bullet in 1853. Whitworth’s bullet was 3½ times as long as it was wide in .451 caliber, weighing the 520 plus grains of the old English Minie ball. It’s sectional density and ballistic coefficient were fantastic.

histor10
The muzzle of a 451 caliber Whitworth style sporting target rifle, showing the hexagonal shape of the bore.

At an official trial held the next year, the ordinary Enfield rifled musket with Minie ball shot an eight foot group at 800 yards, while the Whitworth rifle shot into 23 inches at the same range.”

Damn !
It had a 1-20 twist and could group 23 inches at 800 yards -open sights. 1853 Hossy.


To the tech and WB……
Sounds like a modern day best that money can buy setup to me- copied ……….from 1853

Yup
Get into those moccasins and watch Jeremiah Johnson.
 
Not defensive. Just trying to see the relevance of that in this conversation.


Theres a certain breed of Utahn(Utard) that no matter what, will push every grey area, exploit rules, etc.


I've shot none, since 1988.

You?
 
Theres a certain breed of Utahn(Utard) that no matter what, will push every grey area, exploit rules, etc.


I've shot none, since 1988.

You?
Are you trying to ask me a question about a TRUMPETER swan? Is that the question your poor feeble mind is trying to find the answer to? Hahahahahahaha holy balls. You really aren’t that sharp. Wow

To answer your question, I’ve shot 10-12 TUNDRA swans. I’d have to go through and count them.
 

Here’s some facts Hossy. I will give you some credit for some facts - but if you think that doc white was 1st - you are wrong. It really doesn’t matter Hossy. What’s amazing to think (per this article) is how far back the in-line went.

“[Pauley]…was the first to design and patent an…inline action in which the **** of the sidelock was replaced by a cylindrical hammer driven by a coil spring… (1808)”

“The advent of true elongated bullets came about because the English military asked Sir Joseph Whitworth, an acknowledged genius in his own day, to optimize the Minie Ball’s performance, He brought out his famous rifle and new elongated octagonal bullet in 1853. Whitworth’s bullet was 3½ times as long as it was wide in .451 caliber, weighing the 520 plus grains of the old English Minie ball. It’s sectional density and ballistic coefficient were fantastic.

View attachment 120138The muzzle of a 451 caliber Whitworth style sporting target rifle, showing the hexagonal shape of the bore.

At an official trial held the next year, the ordinary Enfield rifled musket with Minie ball shot an eight foot group at 800 yards, while the Whitworth rifle shot into 23 inches at the same range.”

Damn !
It had a 1-20 twist and could group 23 inches at 800 yards -open sights. 1853 Hossy.


To the tech and WB……
Sounds like a modern day best that money can buy setup to me- copied ……….from 1853

I don't, nor did I say so.

I said the majority of us got into inlines via Whites.

Btw, you said I tried to lump you with Bux.

If I did that was wrong to do so.

I realized today who he is, and he will get that cover for Utard.

I shot open sight yesterday.. it's not that big a deal.

You want to push the same for rifles, I'll say the same.

But "fair" is stupid

Yup
Get into those moccasins and watch Jeremiah Johnson.
 
Are you trying to ask me a question about a TRUMPETER swan? Is that the question your poor feeble mind is trying to find the answer to? Hahahahahahaha holy balls. You really aren’t that sharp. Wow

To answer your question, I’ve shot 10-12 TUNDRA swans. I’d have to go through and count them.

How many trumps?
 
How many trumps?
Oh yeah typical you. Ignore your Fug up and keep on trucking in an attempt to prove a point.

2. 1 on purpose. 1 on accident. Both legal at the time since my tag said “SWAN” on it.

FWIW, those were both shot years when the quota had never even reached 5 for those seasons. So no, I wasn’t part of the problem. When the quotas started being met, I didn’t shoot any more. Could have. But didn’t.

“How many tundras…” what a tard. Hahahaha
 
There's new guys in here all the time, when a classic Tard shows up, it good for them to know what that Tard is about.
 
There's new guys in here all the time, when a classic Tard shows up, it good for them to know what that Tard is about.
Harvesting a legal animal is what I’m about. Didn’t always use to be the case. But it is now. But you’d really love to burn me at the stake for shooting 2 trumps. Oh how I dare I! ?
 
Harvesting a legal animal is what I’m about. Didn’t always use to be the case. But it is now. But you’d really love to burn me at the stake for shooting 2 trumps. Oh how I dare I! ?

Nope.

But there's lots of talk about why we have to yearly add more and more regs, laws, etc.

There's guys that you can count on to always be pushing the grey areas, it's just what they do.

Tard, The Utah Way, etc.

Whether it's "sub adult bears(a line so dumb I still remember it)", trumps, under table duck guides, and I'm sure a dozen other deals, some dudes just personify the Utah Way. Your just one of them.

So please, carry on, now that we know who you are, a lot makes sense
 
How many people put in for the muzzle hunt before 2016 scope issues? Was it harder to get a tag when they changed the rules? It’s already been answered about success rates. If it is harder to get that tag because of the scope change, maybe that’s one of the reasons some people are ticked off? I never wanted to hunt the muzzle loader season until they changed the rules (scopes) and now I know the opportunity that’s out there!
 
Nope.

But there's lots of talk about why we have to yearly add more and more regs, laws, etc.

There's guys that you can count on to always be pushing the grey areas, it's just what they do.

Tard, The Utah Way, etc.

Whether it's "sub adult bears(a line so dumb I still remember it)", trumps, under table duck guides, and I'm sure a dozen other deals, some dudes just personify the Utah Way. Your just one of them.

So please, carry on, now that we know who you are, a lot makes sense
It’s never been a secret who I am. You’ve just been too stupid to pay attention.

It was a sub adult bear. It wasn’t cub. It wasn’t suckin off momma anymore. He was out in the world on his own. I’d love for you to show me where it says I have to shoot a mature boar In the “guide book” you referred to.

Are you accusing me of guiding under the table for waterfowl?
 
View attachment 120154

I don't have to accuse anything. Some dudes you just let talk.

View attachment 120153
Congratulations. You know how to use the search bar! I’m not doing it. But I’m sure you assume I was referring to myself. That’s ok. Simple minds have a hard time thinking outside the box.

And here i thought you only knew how hot pound away at the keyboard and hit “post reply”! Good work! ??
 
As many names as you've had, I'd need a planner to keep track.
Oh come on. I’ve only had 3 on here, this one included. The UWN, or the CWN i should say, is another story.

Your buttons are so easy to push, it’s really not even that fun. Come up with some new material though. Digging up **** that happened 12 years ago isn’t very original.
 
Congratulations. You know how to use the search bar! I’m not doing it. But I’m sure you assume I was referring to myself. That’s ok. Simple minds have a hard time thinking outside the box.

And here i thought you only knew how hot pound away at the keyboard and hit “post reply”! Good work! ??


Nah, how would anyone ever think an upstanding citizen such as yourself would ever blur a line.
 
Good luck. I'm excited for you to stand at the RAC, introduce yourself, and oppose removing scopes. Start with Snizzledick
 
Oh come on. I’ve only had 3 on here, this one included. The UWN, or the CWN i should say, is another story.

Your buttons are so easy to push, it’s really not even that fun. Come up with some new material though. Digging up **** that happened 12 years ago isn’t very original.

What buttons do you think you pushed. The scope ban got recommended. I got what I wanted, sort of, but something is better than nothing.

Now hurry and create another name so you can argue with yourself?
 
Good luck. I'm excited for you to stand at the RAC, introduce yourself, and oppose removing scopes. Start with Snizzledick
You really do struggle with following along. I don’t oppose it. I oppose restricting certain weapons when the most effective goes largely unrestricted. I oppose that.

If you’d be following along instead of just sitting there with your thumb up your azz, you’d know that. I want to go full restrictions on everything.
 
Full restrictions to save bucks.......?
Haven't we already addressed bucks don't create herds?
Full restrictions won't rebuild herds, you need a new consultant.

It really is mind blowing how many people just don't get it.

Wanna rebuild herds?
Save does and do whatever it takes to save them!

Gawd this crap gets old......
 
Full restrictions to save bucks.......?
Haven't we already addressed bucks don't create herds?
Full restrictions won't rebuild herds, you need a new consultant.

It really is mind blowing how many people just don't get it.

Wanna rebuild herds?
Save does and do whatever it takes to save them!

Gawd this crap gets old......
Then why TF isn’t that the focus, as a “committee”? ?
 
You really do struggle with following along. I don’t oppose it. I oppose restricting certain weapons when the most effective goes largely unrestricted. I oppose that.

If you’d be following along instead of just sitting there with your thumb up your azz, you’d know that. I want to go full restrictions on everything.

Good luck. I'm sure I'll see ya in the swamp "talking" with yet another LEO whos out to get you.

Again Ballistic, I apologize
 
And The First F'N Move Should Be The DWR Eliminating Every F'N Doe Permit!

Then We Should Start Building Deer Numbers!

Sounds Good!

But Ain't a F'N Happening!

PISS POOR MANAGEMENT AT IT'S BEST!

SAD!

Full restrictions to save bucks.......?
Haven't we already addressed bucks don't create herds?
Full restrictions won't rebuild herds, you need a new consultant.

It really is mind blowing how many people just don't get it.

Wanna rebuild herds?
Save does and do whatever it takes to save them!

Gawd this crap gets old......
 
Don’t try to come up with logical thoughts and observations. We don’t live in a world of “logic” or “what’s best for the greater good”. We live in the world of “what’s best for me is best!” I’ve posted 3 times on this thread about switching seasons around. Put the general muzzy hunt in mid to late October and let them keep the scopes. Put ALW seasons before them. See if the muzzy scope boys go for that. The reality is that the current muzzy regs allow hunters to use a firearm with 3-500 yard capabilities, before any other rifle season, with less pressure. That’s what the fight is about. All you folks out there standing on your hill for scopes, answer this:

Would you be ok with keeping scopes but making general muzzy season the 2nd or 3rd rifle hunt?
I personally would be ecstatic if they switched the rifle and muzzy dates and give up scopes
Bring on a garrented tag every year ?
Not going to happen ☹️
 
You keep saying the same things, and just because you say it loud don't make it true, AND the stats you use are useless.

It is 100% about limiting hunters. Which should limit success. But it's a dam in the continued race in tech.

Comparing a CVA Accura, which was the new kid when scopes came out, to pre scope isn't neatly the same as comparing TODAYS LR muzzys to pre scope.

And. Had we not bitched about FLIR, guys like yourself with the "best money can buy" would be rocking one on every gun.

Had cams not been limited, with the rise of systems like starlink, real time transmitting cams would be the norm, be ause, "best money can buy".

You either heard what you wanted(most likely), or mis understood.

Limiting tech MIGHT roll back success. But it WILL curtail gains.

That's the point

Not saying something [outloud] doesn't make it untrue either.

Limiting tech = limiting success = lncreasing nose count (animal) = Increasing opportunity = Regaining status quo on success rate.

People can pretend all they want it's only about one thing, but it's absolutely absurd to think it's about only thing.

"You"-tah want hunts to be a certain thing. So what...
 
Seems to me the WB was searching for a change, or they wouldn’t have created an advisory committee.

Is that a foolish assumption?
 
FWIW, I recently spoke to a close family member of one of the WB, and he sounded very confident that they were going back to old regs (1x scopes).

Whether or not the committee recommendation changes that remains to be seen.
I hope you are right. That has been my position on this topic all along. ?
 
The best trade off for removing all scopes will hopefully be a tag every year in your pocket.
Leaving scopes even at 1x max means not having a tag every year IMO.
You won't have a tag in your pocket every year anyway. It may improve for a year or two, but after the rifle guys figure out that it is taking 8-10 years to draw a rifle Gen Deer tag, they will all make a mass exodus back to the muzzleloader hunt like a dog to its vomit. It's a nice thought, but it's not really going to increase opportunity in the long run.
 
You won't have a tag in your pocket every year anyway. It may improve for a year or two, but after the rifle guys figure out that it is taking 8-10 years to draw a rifle Gen Deer tag, they will all make a mass exodus back to the muzzleloader hunt like a dog to its vomit. It's a nice thought, but it's not really going to increase opportunity in the long run.
At that point I would say to hobble the muzzy hunt even more, like a 3-5 day season or something.
I just want to muzzy hunt every year, I am sick of sitting on sidelines 2-3 years between drawing my desired tag.
 
It was heavy majority vote last night by the committee to recommend to the WB "Open Sight Only" rule in the state of Utah for General and LE big game hunts going forward.

A COR would still an option for use of a 1x scope.

I am not posting this to encourage debate and questioning for arguments, it is what it is and now up to the WB for final ruli

Just wait until the “primitive” hunts are implemented on archery and rifle hunters. The language of “These hunts were never originally intended for long distance will come into play.”
Hams hunt are already open sights on rifles as the prelim. Don’t think it won’t be coming.

Your tech committee will dress up in moccasins and re-enact a vision of the great frontier.
And the board members will be in awe !

I agree w Bux and Ducks on the special interest BS agenda. The scope removal recommendations are nothing more or less than what it is. Personal feelings -no facts or data to back it up. Such as the words “I know”
“I know muzzies can shoot deer at 1100 yards cuz a member of the tech committee said he did.”
“I know that the average muzzy hunter can easily kill deer at 500 yards” cuz my billy bob did it.
“I know a muzzy is just a center fire rifle now”
“I know a gunwelrks muzzy can kill an antelope easily at 700 yards cuz here’s the video”
“I know muzzles are rifles cuz billy bob and I went down to cal ranch and we couldn’t find our “nipples” for our Hawkins -only these new fangled paramounts”

Pun intended on all the “I knows” by all the billy bobs that don’t represent the average hunter - just personal feelings. JMO
The problem we will have when they add archery and any weapon hunts to the primitive hunt restrictions is that they won't affect the current any weapon or archery hunts. What they will do is ad a second any weapon and archery hunt to what we already have making it worse than before. Animals won't even get that single day of rest between hunts that they get now.
 
No reply on the committee effect it had on bows less than 1%, rifles less than 1% and muzzleloaders 90+%?‍♂️
Also if intended for short range (said who)? At the implement of muzz hunts that was all there was. (When the bow hunt started there was only long bows and recurves.) Why is the elk and antelope muzz after rifle? Once again fair my ass. Definitely picking on muzz hunters. You want primitive that’s what the ham hunts were set up for. Not impressed with committee’s thought process across the technology board?
Awesome Post !
How many hunters (all 3 weapons) had electronics and had to remove them in 2023 as a percent ?
Maybe 10%……..
Working at the range -Id say even less than that -more like 5%. So really not an outrage on it.

How many muzzy hunters have scopes ?
Again - just my observations -90% if not higher.
And open sight Hawkens - really rare to see one.

Again - I don’t have any factual data on percentages above - just personal observations.

So if the wildlife board votes to remove all optics - it’s going to PISS a majority of the folks off that spent the money and the time on equipment (scopes).
If the WB takes all (scopes) -it better give something in compensation.
Extended like archery or a late season rut hunt -something……
I really don’t see the give coming……

Electronics took all 3 weapons out of the car pool lane.
Rifle is still in the fast lane.
Archery is still on the freeway.

Muzzleloader is pulled over and ticketed -to reach the ticket quota the WB tasked the tech committee with.

There’s a HAMS hunt for you hunters that are pushing your moccasin agenda.

 
Whites. WE were exposed to inlines in the early to mid 90's by Whites. Followed by Knights.

I could post the Chuck Hawks article with Doc White talking about building inlines in the 60's, but you were so superior and full of yourself in your genius, you said 82', so I don't want to destroy your knowledge.

But either way, the WE that don't spend the weekend sitting on a bench thinking we changed the world adding or subtracting a grain of powder, WE got turned on to inlines with the Whites.

And WE all shot maxi balls as well, so again thanks for the education, but WE all shot them. Thompson sold them to us, we didn't even have to cast them.

I, have only shot patch and ball out of my pistols, so no I, am not a patch and ball guy.

But, I would be fine shooting patch and ball, if that meant I'd be hunting. Hunters hunt. Be it patch and ball, dart guns, sling shots, or whatever, hunters want to hunt.

I have a feeling, as the tech committee starts addressing tech, we will lose some guys. Guys will choose the bench, over the mtn.
Tony Knight came out with the inline Knight MK-85 in 1985
 
Awesome Post !
How many hunters (all 3 weapons) had electronics and had to remove them in 2023 as a percent ?
Maybe 10%……..
Working at the range -Id say even less than that -more like 5%. So really not an outrage on it.

How many muzzy hunters have scopes ?
Again - just my observations -90% if not higher.
And open sight Hawkens - really rare to see one.

Again - I don’t have any factual data on percentages above - just personal observations.

So if the wildlife board votes to remove all optics - it’s going to PISS a majority of the folks off that spent the money and the time on equipment (scopes).
If the WB takes all (scopes) -it better give something in compensation.
Extended like archery or a late season rut hunt -something……
I really don’t see the give coming……

Electronics took all 3 weapons out of the car pool lane.
Rifle is still in the fast lane.
Archery is still on the freeway.

Muzzleloader is pulled over and ticketed -to reach the ticket quota the WB tasked the tech committee with.

There’s a HAMS hunt for you hunters that are pushing your moccasin agenda.


You realize your long range muzzy shoots every bit as far without a scope as it does with one, right?

So muzzys are still in the fast lane, but with halogen lights. Same lights been working forever
 
This “who and what” came first is a nonsense discussion, when it comes to the beginning of Utah’s muzzleloader season.

In the last 1970’s, when the State wide muzzleloader hunt was asked for and granted by the WB 99.99% of the Utah muzzleloaders owned and hunted with Thompson Center Hawkin cap lock rifles or the odd Great River, CVA, or Lyman Hawkin replica. The other .01% were carrying God only knows Zuoves, Kentucky Flint Locks etc etc.

The in-line technologies from the 1800’s or before had absolutely no involvement nor input into the discussions, nor did the Whites and Knights in lines that came to make 5 or 6 years after the fact, not in spirit nor in reality.

The muzzleloading sportsmen asked and fought for what was considered by everyone at the time to be modern day equivalent to “the primative weapon of 1820 - 1840 mountian man’s rifle. That’s what we hunted with and that’s what we ask the WB to create a “primative weapon hunt” based on, nothing more nothing less.

We wanted to hunt in handmade leather clothes, wear Native American necklaces, hang elk ivory’s off our leather shirts, bead up some geometric decorate possibles bags, and sleep in lodge pole lodges/teepees. That’s what we asked for and that’s what we got.

Everything since then has been added to the definition after that…… what some guy developed 150 years prior to that or reinvented 5 years after that had absolutely influence whatever to do with why there is a muzzleloader season in Utah.

What stimulated it or how it came about in other States, I can’t speak to…….. but let’s stop this nonsense about what and why it came to Utah. It DAMN SURE WAS NOT WANTED BY THE WILDLIFE RESOURCE BUREAUCRACY IN 1970’s……. but it is what the WB gave the muzzleloader community at that time……… a muzzleloader hunt, for the modern Hawkin style muzzleloader ( meaning modern in 1977) which 99.99% of us were using at that time.
 
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This “who and what” came first is a nonsense discussion, when it comes to the beginning of Utah’s muzzleloader season.

In the last 1970’s, when the State wide muzzleloader hunt was asked for and granted by the WB 99.99% of the Utah muzzleloaders owned and hunted with Thompson Center Hawkin cap lock rifles or the odd Great River, CVA, or Lyman Hawkin replica. The other .01% were carrying God only knows Zuoves, Kentucky Flint Locks etc etc.

The in-line technologies from the 1800’s or before had absolutely involvement nor input into the discussions, nor did the Whites and Knights in lines that came to make 5 or 6 years after the fact, not in spirit nor in reality.

The muzzleloading sportsmen asked and fought for what was considered by everyone at the time to be modern day equivalent to “the primative weapon of 1820 - 1840 mountian man’s rifle. That’s what we hunted with and that’s what we ask the WB to create a “primative weapon hunt” based on, nothing more nothing less.

We wanted to hunt in handmade leather clothes, wear Native American necklaces, hang elk ivory’s off our leather shirts, bead up some geometric decorate possibles bags, and sleep in lodge pole lodges/teepees. That’s what we asked for and that’s what we got.

Everything since then has been added to the definition after that…… what some guy developed 150 years prior to that or reinvented 5 years after that had absolutely influence whatever to do with why there is a muzzleloader season in Utah.

What stimulated it or how it came about in other States, I can’t speak to…….. but let’s stop this nonsense about what and why it came to Utah. It DAMN SURE WAS NOT WANTED BY THE WILDLIFE RESOURCE BUREAUCRACY IN 1970’s……. but it is what the WB gave the muzzleloader community at that time……… a muzzleloader hunt, for the modern Hawkin style muzzleloader ( meaning modern in 1977) which 99.99% of us were using at that time.

Ballistic did you read that?
 
This “who and what” came first is a nonsense discussion, when it comes to the beginning of Utah’s muzzleloader season.

In the last 1970’s, when the State wide muzzleloader hunt was asked for and granted by the WB 99.99% of the Utah muzzleloaders owned and hunted with Thompson Center Hawkin cap lock rifles or the odd Great River, CVA, or Lyman Hawkin replica. The other .01% were carrying God only knows Zuoves, Kentucky Flint Locks etc etc.

The in-line technologies from the 1800’s or before had absolutely involvement nor input into the discussions, nor did the Whites and Knights in lines that came to make 5 or 6 years after the fact, not in spirit nor in reality.

The muzzleloading sportsmen asked and fought for what was considered by everyone at the time to be modern day equivalent to “the primative weapon of 1820 - 1840 mountian man’s rifle. That’s what we hunted with and that’s what we ask the WB to create a “primative weapon hunt” based on, nothing more nothing less.

We wanted to hunt in handmade leather clothes, wear Native American necklaces, hang elk ivory’s off our leather shirts, bead up some geometric decorate possibles bags, and sleep in lodge pole lodges/teepees. That’s what we asked for and that’s what we got.

Everything since then has been added to the definition after that…… what some guy developed 150 years prior to that or reinvented 5 years after that had absolutely influence whatever to do with why there is a muzzleloader season in Utah.

What stimulated it or how it came about in other States, I can’t speak to…….. but let’s stop this nonsense about what and why it came to Utah. It DAMN SURE WAS NOT WANTED BY THE WILDLIFE RESOURCE BUREAUCRACY IN 1970’s……. but it is what the WB gave the muzzleloader community at that time……… a muzzleloader hunt, for the modern Hawkin style muzzleloader ( meaning modern in 1977) which 99.99% of us were using at that time.
Lumpy
Thanks for your info which I believe to be mostly correct.
The hard part about the history and timelines are finding the when changes occurred ?
When did the regs allow the use of a 1x scope for example ? I honestly can’t remember when that was allowed -can you?
Powder substitutes is another
Ignitions yet another.
We know the dates of when variable power was allowed -2016.

The argument that dates on tech do not matter is incorrect in my opinion. Why ?
The tech committee has been tasked by the WB to curb tech. The tech committee has stated that muzzy tech has surpassed archery and rifle tech - and that’s incorrect.

The whitworth muzzy of the 1850,s and todays best that money can buy muzzies - that tech is actually pretty close.
Is todays muzzy better than the 1977 hawken - absolutely. But the tech was there in 1977 and I guarantee there were a select few that used it. It’s human nature to get better - have an edge. There’s a reason the November rut hunt ended for muzzies -correct ?
What year did folks try to improve ? Each and every year or maybe I’m wrong.

Can you explain the timeline from 1977 - 2023 (46 years) and why after all these years did addressing tech matter much more for the muzzy?
Much More than rifles and archery ?

That’s the hard pill to swallow on the subject of going back. To what date ?
1977/1985/2014-16/2023…
1808 -1st inline ? Whitworth 1854 ?
1977 hawken -open sights ?

The tech committee's claims of 1100 yard chip shots/ 700 yard muzzy kills/ and single shot rifles is simply not what the average hunter can do with todays muzzy. But it’s the sell that matters right ?

The tech committee did not specify a date of when they were trying to go back to other than possibly pre 2016 or maybe a 4X scope recommendation.

So is the timeline of technology and when it was “allowed” important on this issue -removing scopes based off the tech of a muzzy? Was there a restriction in 1977 that said you couldn’t use a whit-worth rifle in place?
Lastly - Will todays hunter in 2023 be happy about the removal of scopes -to find out this was coming from a timeline from 1977 ? Heck that’s 2 generations ago.

You could also argue that if the dates from tech don’t matter on technology then the dates of what it was “originally intended for” shouldn’t be allowed either. Why - it’s been 46 years. I think it all matters. Bring the whole history to the table.

Not an easy subject Lumpy and it’s doing one thing really well right now -dividing us.

And thanks for your posts !
 
Fwiw, a red dot would still be legal in a 1x........if the WB rules in favor of previous regs.
Time will tell....
Slamdunk, just sent you a PM. We need to talk about the Crossbow scope COR recommedations for disabled/ wheelchair hunters which is largely being ignored by the Utah DWR. Please call be back thanks
 
This “who and what” came first is a nonsense discussion, when it comes to the beginning of Utah’s muzzleloader season.

In the last 1970’s, when the State wide muzzleloader hunt was asked for and granted by the WB 99.99% of the Utah muzzleloaders owned and hunted with Thompson Center Hawkin cap lock rifles or the odd Great River, CVA, or Lyman Hawkin replica. The other .01% were carrying God only knows Zuoves, Kentucky Flint Locks etc etc.

The in-line technologies from the 1800’s or before had absolutely no involvement nor input into the discussions, nor did the Whites and Knights in lines that came to make 5 or 6 years after the fact, not in spirit nor in reality.

The muzzleloading sportsmen asked and fought for what was considered by everyone at the time to be modern day equivalent to “the primative weapon of 1820 - 1840 mountian man’s rifle. That’s what we hunted with and that’s what we ask the WB to create a “primative weapon hunt” based on, nothing more nothing less.

We wanted to hunt in handmade leather clothes, wear Native American necklaces, hang elk ivory’s off our leather shirts, bead up some geometric decorate possibles bags, and sleep in lodge pole lodges/teepees. That’s what we asked for and that’s what we got.

Everything since then has been added to the definition after that…… what some guy developed 150 years prior to that or reinvented 5 years after that had absolutely influence whatever to do with why there is a muzzleloader season in Utah.

What stimulated it or how it came about in other States, I can’t speak to…….. but let’s stop this nonsense about what and why it came to Utah. It DAMN SURE WAS NOT WANTED BY THE WILDLIFE RESOURCE BUREAUCRACY IN 1970’s……. but it is what the WB gave the muzzleloader community at that time……… a muzzleloader hunt, for the modern Hawkin style muzzleloader ( meaning modern in 1977) which 99.99% of us were using at that time.
Speak for yourself that’s not what I asked for or anyone I hunt with. Never wanted to wear any leather crap or any of that other stuff. Had a muzzle loader and wanted to hunt with it end of story?‍♂️
 
Fwiw, a red dot would still be legal in a 1x........if the WB rules in favor of previous regs.
Time will tell....
We really don't need a RAC committee or technology committee in Utah. I think Uncle Don Peay should make the final decision on allowing magnified smokepole scopes, open sights, or 1x magnifying scopes. He usually makes the final call on hunting laws in Utah. Here is Uncle Don Peay's personal email address : [email protected] if you email him you might increase your odds of drawing a hunt expo tag. Good luck ?
 
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