Game management

So obviously this is my own opinion and I’m curious on what other people’s thoughts are as well on a few different things and curious on other people’s input. One thing I love about New Mexico is the opportunity we have with our draw system that we all have the same chance at drawing a tag and there is no point system. I feel like some of our “trophy units” have suffered a bit over the years which could be moisture driven as well since bulls haven’t been able to get to full potential. Listening to some Jay Scott podcasts and seeing how Arizona sometimes adjust tag numbers due to research and elk numbers I’m curious on why NM hasn’t done that? Manage some of our higher end units to get a little bit better age class. I do think pushing the rifle dates back a week will be beneficial and they get the same money since the same amount of tags are felt out so maybe we will see success rates drop this year and that might give a few more bulls a chance to get a few years older. Also curious on thoughts on if you draw a Q/HD unit possibly not being able to draw a Q/HD unit the next year just to give others a little bit better shot at an amazing tag. Not saying this because I never draw. NM has blessed me with tags but I do think there’s a couple improvements but just curious on other people’s thoughts I personally like to hunt a higher age class of bulls, I’ll cow hunt if I don’t draw for meat. But curious on everybody else’s thoughts. Not posting this to start any arguments just curious on others thoughts and ideas.
 

NMFROM81

Member
Just my opinion....I think NM allocates tags better than any other state.
We offer opportunity hunts that are easier to draw and quality hunts that are harder to draw. Giving 3 choices allows people to pick hunts they will be happy with. Don't change a thing with our random draw that looks at all 3 choices before moving to the next applicant.
People that do some research in draw odds and are knowledgeable about hunt options stand very good chances at drawing something every year. Compare that to NV, UT and AZ. Probably going to be waiting a very long time for decent hunts in those states. The top end hunts will probably never happen. CO is worse with their preference point system....if your not in the max point pool, or just below it, you will not draw the best hunts, ever.
Point systems are BS and do very little for people that are knee deep in these systems. In my opinion, we should advocate for keeping the NM draw the way it is.
As far as management, I can't offer anything too intelligent. I think we have quality elk available in many units, not just the top-tier units. The best units are hard enough to draw as it is, I don't think we would see a drastic increase in age class by cutting a few tags.
 

BUGLEnmIN

Very Active Member
I agree with what's been said . I see both points of views. I think our draw system is top notch and should be left alone. There are some things that can be done to achieve an older age class of bulls. I believe the hunts being pushed back MAY help to achieve this. Like NMFROM81 stated there are good old bulls in units that aren't considered"quality" . The only thing I can take away and beg to differ on is if one is successful in drawing a Q/HD unit I do NOT believe they should have to automatically sit out a year , odds are they won't draw it the next year anyway, although some do draw good units several years in a row! That's the beauty of NM lottery draw!
 

bobby

Active Member
For me the main issue i have as a resident with the draw , is the outfitter welfare. 10 % of tags for guaranteed business just is not right, plain and simple. do a 90 -10 split and let reputable outfitters earn business much like normal business owners.

People failed to mention poaching as a key reason of less age class. Anyone in NM knows how bad it is , we have a large population of people who just dont care frankly .
 
I to am very against point systems and I don’t think the 10% pool is a bad thing either it literally creates business I feel like. No offense to a lot of outfitters but it seems like in the last 5-10 years everybody became an outfitter and got their outfitters license and I think it’s hurting that pool a little bit. (I am not an outfitter) I’d like to hear from the outfitter side of thing I know more people are putting in and odds will always slightly creep down. I still wouldn’t be against sitting out a year after drawing a Q/HD hunt. Like you said we have a ton of opportunities in NM I could always put in for a northern unit and still get a chance to go and hunt. I’ll use my wife as an example..... she started putting in 4 years ago..... first year.... drew a 16D first archery.... next year no draw.... following year 16D second archery horrible antler growth year (2018) passed on bulls we probably should have shot.... next year draws 16D first archery...... due to being pregnant and having a kiddo on the way we didn’t put her in this year. 3-4 for a prime time hunt. Awesome for her! But I know some older guys (residents) that have been waiting for that tag for 15 years. And wouldn’t sitting out of Q/HD make that big of a difference I. Draw odds? As a resident maybe 5-10% I haven’t ran the numbers but it’s something. I’m really hoping to see success rates drop a little on rifle hunt due to the push, but time will tell.
 

roadrunner

Very Active Member
Doing away with the outfitter pool is the best overhaul that could be done, totally unnecessary. Sorry guys, but we do have a competitive free market for an economic system.

The only way to improve trophy quantity is to reduce tags. You do that, and now you a have a scenario closely related to a point system in UT.

Still not convinced NM has the best draw system. Seems odd when people in the same household draw the same hunt on different applications and their choices were the same as yours. How does pure randomness work that good for some people?
 

DBR

Member
I have no problem with NM draw system...luck of the draw every year I wouldn’t change a thing on the draw. I wish they would manage some elk units for quality. I’ve seen my home unit go from a lot of great bulls to plenty of elk running around but nothing like 10-15 years ago. With so many big bulls getting taken out and young bulls not getting the age to replace them. I scout all year long and have really seen a decline in good bulls.
 

OCHO

Active Member
I feel like the majority of hunts in the state are opportunity hunts and not getting better. I have seen some of the tag numbers cut over time but its more of a reactive than proactive. Meaning we adjust after the deer numbers specifically dwindle down to nothing.


I personally would rather lower the numbers and draw a little less than continue to massacre any one animal. Year after year smaller animals get hammered as its harder to find mature animals especially deer.

AZ and CO adjust their tag allocations based on several factors including winter, hunts and disease. Its really how biology works. For some reason it has become completely about opportunities and money here and less and less about management.

Listen if you don't draw every year there are enough OTC tags to keep everyone of you busy. If you don't get up off your couch and go, and most of you don't than that's on you.

OTC Turkey 2 or 3 times a year, IBEX, Barbary Sheep, Bear. 3 of the 4 of these are more than obtainable.

To me giving tags isn't what its about or drawing. Personally I would love more quality for hunts than what we are at. Go hunt Colorado or AZ OTC areas and its a real wake up call. Especially AZ OTC bow AND their deer hunts aren't very hard to draw and guess what you see bucks get on youtube and type OTC AZ Deer. Majority of their OTC hunts are better than majority of draw hunts here.

State makes changes but to me its mostly for the money and for ranchers/land owners few and far between for average hunter.

If they made hunter safety mandatory it would clean the state up as well! Its good to clean people up who put their whole family in and don't even hunt much or have family draw a bow or riffle hunt that don't even put the time in to go. It's also a good education! JMO
 

roadrunner

Very Active Member
I personally would rather lower the numbers and draw a little less than continue to massacre any one animal.
As long as the drawing a little less often was a guarantee that you will. Some of us experience that already without any change in place. That is the whole argument against a point system.

Listen if you don't draw every year there are enough OTC tags to keep everyone of you busy. If you don't get up off your couch and go, and most of you don't than that's on you.

OTC Turkey 2 or 3 times a year, IBEX, Barbary Sheep, Bear. 3 of the 4 of these are more than obtainable.
But for the meat hunter, these options are pointless unless you love to eat goat and sheep meat or make a ton of breakfast sausage out of a bruin if doing a shoulder mount or making a rug is not a criteria.

First hand experience is that it's frustrating as hell to witness some groups of people of it not being a matter of whether or not they draw just one tag, but how many and what they get. And no, they don't play the system to draw just any tag to just have a tag in their pocket in a unit that has one elk per 10 square miles, they are always prime tags.

It doesn't take long to just forget about it and move onto something else...
 

OCHO

Active Member
As long as the drawing a little less often was a guarantee that you will. Some of us experience that already without any change in place. That is the whole argument against a point system.



But for the meat hunter, these options are pointless unless you love to eat goat and sheep meat or make a ton of breakfast sausage out of a bruin if doing a shoulder mount or making a rug is not a criteria.
I find it hard to believe a meat hunter can’t draw a tag or two every year. Especially cow hunts. And other than Oryx your not getting anything hardly any meat out of any other game.

I spend time reviewing the draw reports and make choices that help my odds.

I help in the shop in Albuquerque and shoot a lot of tournaments the true amount of meat hunters are slim. Based on what I see and hear from all the customers



irregardless of meat hunts and opportunity I still don’t think that negates the fact that we aren’t really managing animals is my point. As I have stated there is plenty of OTC opportunities in 2 states touching NM. AZ be drawn often or OTC for deer and Colorado every couple of years for deer and OTC for elk.

My family had over 20 apps only Drew 3. The amount of applicants grows year after year due to our system. No complaining just pointing it out.
 

BUGLEnmIN

Very Active Member
A ton of relevant points being made. 90/10 split would be legit. It will never happen though. In the event that would happen why stop there? I would love to see all UW elk tags given to ranchers come to an end as well!
If I didn't know any better ,and stumbled on this post ,I would assume there just aren't trophy class bulls out there. This isn't the case. The greater Gila units still do hold some big animals, not just elk, but deer,bear, cats ECT. They may not be as plentiful as they were once for sure, which is what we're discussing but they are there.
I believe (IMO) the better optics, rifles,bows, equipment in general is contributing to more animals getting taken. It may be a smaller factor in the grand scheme but it's a factor.
RR ,most respect man. You always contribute solid sound advice and opinions, just remind me not to show you what we drew this year 😬😂🤣 haha. 👊🏼
 

roadrunner

Very Active Member
I find it hard to believe a meat hunter can’t draw a tag or two every year. Especially cow hunts. And other than Oryx your not getting anything hardly any meat out of any other game.

I spend time reviewing the draw reports and make choices that help my odds.
Year #3 with zilch, nada, zippo...
 

Guardrail

Active Member
Year #3 with zilch, nada, zippo...

I've been swinging for the fences as a n/r and am also drawing zilch. The odds for a n/r in some of the best units is dissimill at best.
My opinion of NM game Managment is I have no opinion other than you guys have a beutiful state with a rich enviroment, it needs the best Managment that can be put into place, not to start any arguments but the Native American reservations in your state have set the bar pretty high on game Managment and I think the NMG&F could learn from them and there success ,

Just my 2 cents.....stay safe guys...
 

roadrunner

Very Active Member
My opinion of NM game Managment is I have no opinion other than you guys have a beutiful state with a rich enviroment, it needs the best Managment that can be put into place, not to start any arguments but the Native American reservations in your state have set the bar pretty high on game Managment and I think the NMG&F could learn from them and there success ,

Just my 2 cents.....stay safe guys...
The Jicarilla shut down deer hunting for 5 years. Now they auction tags off for $50k plus.
 

Guardrail

Active Member
Just to clarifie I think there Managment practices are doing a good job, I can't comment on there tag prices because that's out of my pay grade , way way out of my pay grade !!:sick:
 
I think our draw is fine. Just wish we could get quality better in the units known for quality. Keep opportunity hunts the way they are I agree with a lot of things said in this post I think we could get a handful of units managed to be Trophy units. if you’re putting in for the 16’s, 15, etc on a prime hunt wanting to meat hunt. Don’t get mad if you don’t draw for 10 years that’s your own fault. Even had a thought if it was every 3 years they had a rotation say 16D and cut 25%-50% the tags in 2020..... 16A the same the next year and have a rotation with our “trophy” or quality units.... i mean it wouldn’t be much but anything is better than nothing. I don’t know I’m just thinking outside the box here. I think AZ is managing their animals by far the best than any state I don’t like the points but I get it. CO is garbage and once they introduce wolves..... it’ll get worse.... UT and NV I got into that game to late and will probably never get the tag that I want for those states.
 

Muleman

Active Member
NM draw is as good and as fair as it gets. There isn’t a true fair system when there aren’t enough tags to go around.

I think a weighted draw is fair too. Every year you don’t draw you get your name put in twice for 2 years, 3 times for 3 yrs and so on. You have to keep it where a first year hunter has a chance, if you don’t you will kill the sport.

As far as it being money driven, NM gets more money from fishing license sales than hunting so money is an issue but not the driving factor.

To increase trophy quality you have to decrease tags. It’s hard enough to draw a tag as is I don’t want my odds to be worse. One factor of trophy that isn’t mentioned is the hunters themselves. We have more trophy hunters, high end glass, gps, gov tags, guides living in the woods, the big ones get found and killed. The hunting pressure on trophy class is causing the quality to go down. It’s not an endless supply of eight years old animals.
 

roadrunner

Very Active Member
NM draw is as good and as fair as it gets. There isn’t a true fair system when there aren’t enough tags to go around.

I think a weighted draw is fair too. Every year you don’t draw you get your name put in twice for 2 years, 3 times for 3 yrs and so on. You have to keep it where a first year hunter has a chance, if you don’t you will kill the sport.
This almost describes UT's bonus point system except instead of your name in the hat 'X' number of times, your points give you the chance for a better draw sequence number when the tag(s) go into the random draw. The whole idea of "point creep" in UT for the random draw tags is nonsense.

I like your suggestion.

The question about game management, are talking herd management or trophy management? With herd, it is an opportunity hunt. With trophy, you have very few opportunities.
 

ABQ_Chica

Member
I feel like the majority of hunts in the state are opportunity hunts and not getting better. I have seen some of the tag numbers cut over time but its more of a reactive than proactive. Meaning we adjust after the deer numbers specifically dwindle down to nothing.

I personally would rather lower the numbers and draw a little less than continue to massacre any one animal. Year after year smaller animals get hammered as its harder to find mature animals especially deer.
I agree, and would like to see more proactive game management, even if it means fewer tags. As an adult-onset meat hunter who wishes I'd grown up hunting, I understand why youth encouragement and opportunity hunts are part of the system. But I'm also flummoxed that so many tags are offered for areas where herd numbers are already low. Why not let animal numbers recover? I get that it's probably about the money, but if NM really cares about the future of its wildlife, hunting, and hunting-generated income, maintaining herd viability seems like a more stable long-term strategy. Just my measly two cents...
 

ABQ_Chica

Member
NM draw is as good and as fair as it gets. There isn’t a true fair system when there aren’t enough tags to go around.

I think a weighted draw is fair too. Every year you don’t draw you get your name put in twice for 2 years, 3 times for 3 yrs and so on. You have to keep it where a first year hunter has a chance, if you don’t you will kill the sport.
I'd also like to see something like a weighted draw. Seems like a fairer way to address the problem of having more hunters than tags without resorting to a point system. That said, I agree that NM's draw system is pretty good, comparatively.
 

OCHO

Active Member
Classic example. Mt Taylor was notoriously known for loads of elk (although small) but lots and a fun opportunistic hunt. There indeed was an abundance of elk so much so, that a primitive weapon unit opened a non primitive cow hunt that massacred the elk for the most part. At one point you couldn’t draw MT Taylor as it was close and loaded with elk now it’s drawn as a 3rd choice.

My point is, these types of scenarios don’t make sense. Primitive for elk in unit 13 but high power for deer and with at one point 1000 deer tags with a riffle in just 2 hunts. Not to mention muzzle. You can’t tell me how those situations make any sense in anyway.

I even think extending the hunt dates would help. Allowing people more time in the field to really get into animals, locate and possibly try for mature animals can take time. The fact that anything other than a bow hunt for elk or deer which are suffering specifically deer just means most people who hunt the weekend and Monday are going to shoot the first legal buck seen. And in most cases people hunt Saturday - Monday a couple the entire hunt.

It’s crazy how herds continue to drop yet we have states like wyo/mon I can’t remember which you can bow hunt elk and than if your unsuccessful you can go back riffle hunt.

We continue to dump money into BHS which trains and mountain lions have killed more than BHS than anybody. Thank we have wolves who kill all of our beloved animals and wonder why things are the way they are. It’s simple to understand the problem. The right people don’t care and the wrong people do so we get what we have imo.

I Remember about 10 years back drinkers were going up like crazy and now I don’t think I have seen a function habitat drinker or rmef tank still working. Why? We pay extra for these things to stay on the up and up...

Another rant thread with no change likely to come. I do miss the old days of thriving animals especially deer

I’m happy to have a few tags and glad my kids even got one. Good luck to all!
 

Ropinfool

Very Active Member
I like the draw system the way it is now. It's fair for everybody. I think that we should take away the outfitter tags and just include them in the NR pool. I think that in general there are probably too many tags given state wide but I generally draw something every year so I can't complain. I remember years ago when there was only three elk seasons, bow, early October, and November hunts. Private land hunts also occurred the same time. It was much better for the animals since they weren't hunted and harassed as much. I think between the public and private hunts, the animals are chased more than half the year. Seems like the game is managed to appease the land owners and outfitters now.
 

roadrunner

Very Active Member
I like the draw system the way it is now. It's fair for everybody. I think that we should take away the outfitter tags and just include them in the NR pool. I think that in general there are probably too many tags given state wide but I generally draw something every year so I can't complain. I remember years ago when there was only three elk seasons, bow, early October, and November hunts. Private land hunts also occurred the same time. It was much better for the animals since they weren't hunted and harassed as much. I think between the public and private hunts, the animals are chased more than half the year. Seems like the game is managed to appease the land owners and outfitters now.
No outfitter pool anymore. Let them compete like every other business has to. It will make them a better business or they will go belly up.

Straight 90/10 split and not every hunt has to give out non-resident tags.
 

outdoorsdude

Active Member
If we as a State continue on the same path we are on: placing idealism-progressives in charge, where the Game Department is turned into a 'Wildlife Department', where the Multiple Role Officer concept never returns and predator enhancement is prioritized --then Game will NEVER be managed for hunting.

But by all means, hunters should continue to 'stand around' and piss on about the draw and tell each other how it's raining goodness on all of us.
 

patxarano

Active Member
So obviously this is my own opinion and I’m curious on what other people’s thoughts are as well on a few different things and curious on other people’s input. One thing I love about New Mexico is the opportunity we have with our draw system that we all have the same chance at drawing a tag and there is no point system. I feel like some of our “trophy units” have suffered a bit over the years which could be moisture driven as well since bulls haven’t been able to get to full potential. Listening to some Jay Scott podcasts and seeing how Arizona sometimes adjust tag numbers due to research and elk numbers I’m curious on why NM hasn’t done that? Manage some of our higher end units to get a little bit better age class. I do think pushing the rifle dates back a week will be beneficial and they get the same money since the same amount of tags are felt out so maybe we will see success rates drop this year and that might give a few more bulls a chance to get a few years older. Also curious on thoughts on if you draw a Q/HD unit possibly not being able to draw a Q/HD unit the next year just to give others a little bit better shot at an amazing tag. Not saying this because I never draw. NM has blessed me with tags but I do think there’s a couple improvements but just curious on other people’s thoughts I personally like to hunt a higher age class of bulls, I’ll cow hunt if I don’t draw for meat. But curious on everybody else’s thoughts. Not posting this to start any arguments just curious on others thoughts and ideas.
I have worked for the Forest Service in both NM and AZ. I can tell you that AZ more intensely manages their big game. They collect more data annually, and are more nimble in adjusting tag numbers to meet shorter term needs and objectives. There is a lot of science behind their tag allocations. My opinion of New Mexico is that it is more the art of game management, with more local conservation officer intuition guiding tag numbers. I do not think NM's approach is a bad one. That being said, I love that NM, like Idaho, does not have a point system. It kind of sucks for a non-resident like me, but one day soon, I will once again be a NM resident, and can hopefully draw some decent tags instead of waiting 16+ years like in AZ. Both states are different than Colorado where a particular hunt requires a certain number of points to draw. You know beforehand if you can draw or not. I would love to see New Mexico emphasize mule deer in certain units with a lot of potential by reducing deer tag numbers, and greatly increasing elk tags. Elk get all the attention.
 

roadrunner

Very Active Member
But by all means, hunters should continue to 'stand around' and piss on about the draw and tell each other how it's raining goodness on all of us.
Game management without hunter support turns into herd management and the allocation of scarce resources.

Lack of opportunity disenfranchises hunters into becoming indifferent that hunting remains at all.
 

Muleman

Active Member
Weighted draw is not like a true point system. Weighted draw everyone still has a chance, the longer you put in the better your chance becomes. A true point system only max point holders are in the draw. The rest don’t get to play.

I think NM system is as good as it gets, but weighted draw is t horrible either
 

roadrunner

Very Active Member
Weighted draw is not like a true point system. Weighted draw everyone still has a chance, the longer you put in the better your chance becomes. A true point system only max point holders are in the draw. The rest don’t get to play.

I think NM system is as good as it gets, but weighted draw is t horrible either
Depends on the state and the point system. UT only 50% of LE and OIL tags go to the "max" point holders. The remaining 50% is a random draw unless there is only one tag, then it is completly random which is how people with zero, 1, or 2 points have drawn killer tags. I know a guy that drew a mtn goat tag with 2 points.

The "weighted" system in UT is your points give you an increased chance at a better draw number.
 

BUGLEnmIN

Very Active Member
The draw system is better than any other I know about. If I had to choose the thing I like most about the G&F department it's the draw system. 100% equal opportunity across the board.
 

bjn7f0

Active Member
NM has ALWAYS been about money and budgets for the G&F and not about wildlife management or even trophy management. This issue goes back decades. Reactive management is not good management but this was cleary evident with our deer herds. The G&F didn't lower the licenses in some units until there wasn't a deer left and sportsmen were screaming. It's the sportsmen that have stood up that have gotten positive changes. But what happened once the deer numbers started bouncing back? The # of tags was quickly increased. For deer we have 2 true trophy units that are managed for trophy quality and that's 2C and 5B. All other areas are opportunity hunts. For elk, we have semi trophy units with 6B, 16A and 16D. Unit 15 needs to go back to a split like it used to be 15A and 15B to spread out the # of hunters in one area. This could help the age class there. Unit 55A, (Valle Vidal) has too many bull tags and the age class there has dropped over the years. Lowering tags in designated quality hunts will help achieve an older age class of animals but I understand it does further lower the draw odds. Even on liberal cow hunts the draw odds aren't so great for the meat hunters. I have an uncle that hasn't drawn a cow tag in 10 years and I study the odds and try to put him in for decent draws. It's a catch 22 between quality animals and draw odds, but having opportunity areas increases the odds for 2nd and 3rd choices slightly. I agree with most of what's been said. One of things I miss the most was when the G&F combined the weapons choices on the draw. Years ago you had to choose your weapon and all three choices were for that weapon. I used to draw bow hunts more frequently back then. Since then, rifle hunters put in for rifle as the 1st two choices, then throw in an archery hunt as their 3rd choice. They get an archery tag and don't even dedicate to the sport. Another thing I miss, was the draw used to do a 1st pass of all 1st choices for each hunt/unit. Then whoever didn't draw would go into a second draw for all second choices on the application and so on for third. All still luck of the draw. I understand this process was cumbersome and time consuming way back when, and that's why they did away with it, but this was 20+ years ago. With our technology today it would be much easier to bring this back. That's my rant!!!
 

roadrunner

Very Active Member
I agree, choose your weapon and stick to it. Amazing how many archery hunts are drawn as a 3rd choice in late April, buy a first time bow, shoot it for 2 or 3 months before hunting.

At the very least combine only two weapons rifle and muzzy or muzzy and archery, but not rifle and archery.
 

wyflyguy

Active Member
In my opinion, the problem with point systems of any kind is that they tend to breed a sense of entitlement among the hunters that apply and play the game. The mentality becomes one of "if I have to wait 10-15 years for an opportunity to hunt X species in Y unit, then it will be a phenomenal hunt with huge animals around every corner and guaranteed success." Often folks are disappointed because it's still hunting. You still have to contend with the weather, drought, other hunters, etc. Also, folks tend to feel entitled to be able to hunt a given unit because they've waited so long.
I like how New Mexico puts everyone on a level playing field. Sure, it can make planning things in the fall a little challenging, but having a chance to pull a great tag (or any tag) every year is awesome.
 

ABQ_Chica

Member
Weighted draw is not like a true point system. Weighted draw everyone still has a chance, the longer you put in the better your chance becomes. A true point system only max point holders are in the draw. The rest don’t get to play.

I think NM system is as good as it gets, but weighted draw is t horrible either
This was my initial understanding of weighted draws...the system works similar to points, but weighs how often you actually put in for hunts, not how many points you have earned/bought (e.g. max point holders). Is that the primary difference between weighted and point systems? Are there states that run weighted draws? Apologies for the rookie questions, just trying to wrap my head around it! Thanks
 

smarba

Active Member
Totally agree go back to same weapon all choices. Way too many non-bowhunters toss that as a 3rd choice, many times they don't even own a bow. Just ask the archery shop owners what they hear every year with people trying to buy a bow because they drew a tag.

Any system that helps one group, by definition hurts another. Doesn't matter if it's bonus points, preference points, weighted draw, whatever. If somebody's odds go up, someone else's have to go down.

While systems such as weighted assure "everyone has a chance to draw", if you have drawn a tag your odds will be less (1 ticket in the hat, vs 2 or more from somebody that hasn't drawn a tag).

Although it may sound good "hey, he or she drew last year, why should they get another tag?" maybe the reason he/she drew was they were selective with marginal opportunity hunts with better draw odds. Why should they be "punished" for doing the research on odds and being willing to settle for a marginal hunt?

Even ideas like "he/she drew a Gila tag, they should have to sit out a year (either from the draw, or from Gila choices)" have their flaws. Let's say the 10% of people who draw Gila have to sit out. Their odds for another Gila tag are ZERO, while the odds of the others in the pool increase at best 10%. So if the draw odds are 10%, that means they jump to 11%. At the expense of lucky folks dropping to ZERO. Not an acceptable exchange IMO. Plus if the people have to apply elsewhere that just lowers the odds there.

Bottom line is there is more demand than tags. That will never change, and every year it seems to get a little worse (despite "hunter numbers are declining").

No points, no weighted, no changes to our random system, please.
 

roadrunner

Very Active Member
Although it may sound good "hey, he or she drew last year, why should they get another tag?" maybe the reason he/she drew was they were selective with marginal opportunity hunts with better draw odds. Why should they be "punished" for doing the research on odds and being willing to settle for a marginal hunt?
Doesn't always work like that, research and putting in for what appears to be "easy-to-draw" hunts.

I could be the only applicant for a hunt that offers 2 tags and still not draw.

People that pull at least one tag every year will never want any kind of a draw system that gives an advantage.

I do, however, think that choosing weapon is a change most everyone would agree with to help "level" the playing field.
 

OCHO

Active Member
I have talked about this before. You make hunter education mandatory and tag applications will change. Is that the sole reason for hunter education? Yes and no. Yes because I think hunting deserves more than putting half of your family in when they don't care or maybe won't even actually hunt. I think its a good thing to get better safety out there, also more education on several things about hunting and outdoors activities in general that most would never learn.

Same could be said about bow hunting qualification like Laguna has. It is your responsibility to get qualified to even put in. Nothing wrong with having to have an acceptable accuracy to 40 yards. I saw Fred Eichler go to Scottland I believe and he had to qualify in order to hunt. It makes great sense IMO.

I am sure not everyone would be thrilled about this... I know all to well as I see so much of this non sense every year as a shop shooter and helper its terrible how poorly people prepare and the lack of effort. These aren't guns and can't be picked up and parted together like a riffle and call it a day. It can take months for people.

We will never get rid of all issues and you can't make everyone happy and I get that. But I definitely think it could have some clean up with little efforts.

i don't think people have as many issues with the draw as much as the mismanagement or lack of or how ever you want to word it.
 

OCHO

Active Member
Doesn't always work like that, research and putting in for what appears to be "easy-to-draw" hunts.

I could be the only applicant for a hunt that offers 2 tags and still not draw.

People that pull at least one tag every year will never want any kind of a draw system that gives an advantage.

I do, however, think that choosing weapon is a change most everyone would agree with to help "level" the playing field.
Sometimes there is no cure for bad luck unfortunately. I was lucky and drew NM and AZ. And I have enough points to draw CO Deer on decent hunt next year. I guess good to have back up plan. Sounds like you have vast knowledge and hopefully you drew elsewhere! Good luck this year!
 

roadrunner

Very Active Member
Sometimes there is no cure for bad luck unfortunately. I was lucky and drew NM and AZ. And I have enough points to draw CO Deer on decent hunt next year. I guess good to have back up plan. Sounds like you have vast knowledge and hopefully you drew elsewhere! Good luck this year!
Yep. EPLUS for me...
 

5yearcoueshunter

Active Member
On the draw, lets face it, some people are just luckier than others. I've been fairly lucky drawing 5 good Antelope tags in my 25 years of applying. My Dad on the other hand, has drawn 3 in 55 years.

Preference point systems have become complicated and it takes longer and longer to get a tag. I don't want that in NM.

I could entertain the idea of a true bonus point system. You don't draw this year, you get double chances of drawing next year and so on. Once you draw a tag for that species, no matter what choice it is, (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th or even leftover ) you go back to zero. There is really no way to predict when/if you get a tag like people try to do with preference point. I think you could possibly negate point creep with this type of system.

As other's have stated, the private land stuff and especially the Unit Wide tags just don't seem like the right approach to me compared to how other states run things.

Travis
 

roadrunner

Very Active Member
On the draw, lets face it, some people are just luckier than others. I've been fairly lucky drawing 5 good Antelope tags in my 25 years of applying. My Dad on the other hand, has drawn 3 in 55 years.

Preference point systems have become complicated and it takes longer and longer to get a tag. I don't want that in NM.

I could entertain the idea of a true bonus point system. You don't draw this year, you get double chances of drawing next year and so on. Once you draw a tag for that species, no matter what choice it is, (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th or even leftover ) you go back to zero. There is really no way to predict when/if you get a tag like people try to do with preference point. I think you could possibly negate point creep with this type of system.

As other's have stated, the private land stuff and especially the Unit Wide tags just don't seem like the right approach to me compared to how other states run things.

Travis
UT's bonus point system is the best, their problem is not enough tags to where the whole point creep discussion actually has some merit.
 

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