Hunt expo

[tallelkchaser]

There is a common sentiment about people boycotting the expo because of SFW involvement (not gonna get into that, already been hashed for years). But if SFW was not involved, would more sportsmen then support the expo? Say if RMEF or another more credible organization were to take their place?

 

[elkassassin]

RMEF Ain't Happening!

It's Already Been Proved!

There is a common sentiment about people boycotting the expo because of SFW involvement (not gonna get into that, already been hashed for years). But if SFW was not involved, would more sportsmen then support the expo? Say if RMEF or another more credible organization were to take their place?

 

[tallelkchaser]

Yeah, not necessarily the point. More curious if people would support the expo as is if is was run by a more credible organization or if they are simply opposed to it as a whole because of the taking of tags from the public draw.

 

[marburg]

RMEF already bid for the Expo and made a sweeter offer than SFW, but the state of Utah changed the process requirements post bid to screw RMEF and keep things with SFW.

The sportsman of utah accepted the corruption and it ended there. I doubt RMEF or any other organization will try again.

 

[Tristate]

RMEF already bid for the Expo and made a sweeter offer than SFW, but the state of Utah changed the process requirements post bid to screw RMEF and keep things with SFW.

The sportsman of utah accepted the corruption and it ended there. I doubt RMEF or any other organization will try again.

Do you think a representative from RMEF lying to all of us saying that they weren't in competition with SFW had anything to do with anything?

 

[hawkbill]

I’m really sick of the Celebrity Hunter, Poster Boys, every booking company selling Sweepstake Hunts, the 200 tags to draw you to the expo is another Sweepstakes to suck you in the door to buy some beard cream, new pillows, electric bicycles, ultra super platinum long range bows and rifles and enough fake **** to over power the taxidermy displays. The last f—-king thing I need is more hunting equipment.

 

[elkantlers]

I wouldn't support any organization that is stealing our public tags.

 

[grizzly]

I wouldn't support any organization that is stealing our public tags.

Are there many conservation organizations that don't accept/auction public tags? I thought most took some from different states

 

[elkantlers]

I think they all get tags of some sort. The bid steal is the 200 expo tags. Those should be placed back into the draw or they need to allow people to apply without traveling to SLC.

 

[elkassassin]

Well It worked During COVID!

But How Much Money Was Lost?

Or Was There COVID Money To Cover It?

I think they all get tags of some sort. The bid steal is the 200 expo tags. Those should be placed back into the draw or they need to allow people to apply without traveling to SLC.

 

[grizzly]

I think they all get tags of some sort. The bid steal is the 200 expo tags. Those should be placed back into the draw or they need to allow people to apply without traveling to SLC.

Gotcha, I didn't know if your concern was Expo-based or if you didn't like any conservation tags at all.

I totally agree the Expo award process was bogus. However, I'm okay with the "must attend" rule since that was a key impetus when the Expo was devised. I just want the Expo, if it's going to exist, to be fairly awarded to most-benefit Utah's wildlife.

I don't believe that's the case currently.

 

[Tristate]

I think they all get tags of some sort. The bid steal is the 200 expo tags. Those should be placed back into the draw or they need to allow people to apply without traveling to SLC.

Why?

 

[tallelkchaser]

Personally I like the option of having an alternative way to draw a tag outside of our regular draw process. Utah LE tags have become OIL tags after it takes you years to draw then have the additional waiting period after drawing. I think the expo also brings in more money for wildlife in the state which would not exist otherwise. I agree with Grizzly on the award process and that is my biggest issue with the expo itself.

 

[elkfromabove]

Do you think a representative from RMEF lying to all of us saying that they weren't in competition with SFW had anything to do with anything?

RMEF wasn't and still isn't in competition with SFW! They showed that when they refused to challenge the messy way the contract was awarded to SFW. They just thought it would be a good business move to change their annual convention to Utah under the current EXPO Permit arrangement. in order to draw a larger crowd and potential members. It was a simple business decision. That's why they weren't going to use the tag application money to run the convention.

In fact, it was SFW that was in competition with RMEF! They (And DWR and others) panicked when they heard RMEF had a proposal and they needed to see what RMEF had to offer before they sent in their proposal which was against the rules regarding the awarding! And so the SFW proposal was conveniently accepted after the deadline and after they knew what RMEF had to offer. And that's why all those shenanigans took place. And why the explanations were questionable. And why the 5 year extension happened.

 

[hossblur]

Somehow ISE, RV, FanX, and a dozen other convention/shows are capable of existing without us giving them tags.

If $fw wants to put on the expo, minus tags, good on them, and I probably would go.

But the tags were NEVER supposed to be auctioned to pay the "admin" costs of a trade show.

We wouldn't stand for the RV show getting 200 tags with $1.50 out of them covering their show. But we do $fw for some unknown reason.

 

[Tristate]

RMEF wasn't and still isn't in competition with SFW! They showed that when they refused to challenge the messy way the contract was awarded to SFW. They just thought it would be a good business move to change their annual convention to Utah under the current EXPO Permit arrangement. in order to draw a larger crowd and potential members. It was a simple business decision. That's why they weren't going to use the tag application money to run the convention.

In fact, it was SFW that was in competition with RMEF! They (And DWR and others) panicked when they heard RMEF had a proposal and they needed to see what RMEF had to offer before they sent in their proposal which was against the rules regarding the awarding! And so the SFW proposal was conveniently accepted after the deadline and after they knew what RMEF had to offer. And that's why all those shenanigans took place. And why the explanations were questionable. And why the 5 year extension happened.

They were, are, and will be in competition with each other. And the fact that one of their leaders got on these forums and lied his ass off about it mattered. And if you think there wasn't some noise made about it after the fact with some of the RMEF chapters you are kidding yourself. THAT, AND THEIR MESSAGE AFTER, IS WHY NOTHING HAPPENED AFTER THEY LOST THE BID.

Sometimes even RMEF has to answer to their constituents for their behavior and words.

I like RMEF. I support RMEF. But for a brief moment they got sideways publicly. I am happy they have walked away from their brief indiscretion. They can be bigger than that.

 

[hossblur]

They were, are, and will be in competition with each other. And the fact that one of their leaders got on these forums and lied his ass off about it mattered. And if you think there wasn't some noise made about it after the fact with some of the RMEF chapters you are kidding yourself. THAT, AND THEIR MESSAGE AFTER, IS WHY NOTHING HAPPENED AFTER THEY LOST THE BID.

Sometimes even RMEF has to answer to their constituents for their behavior and words.

I like RMEF. I support RMEF. But for a brief moment they got sideways publicly. I am happy they have walked away from their brief indiscretion. They can be bigger than that.

Still smarting from the azz paddling Newberg gave you huh?

 

[Tristate]

Still smarting from the azz paddling Newberg gave you huh?

What paddling? I don't think I've ever disagreed with him except the one time he lied to you.

 

[elkfromabove]

Would I support the EXPO if SFW wasn't involved? Initially, YES. But if the new promotors did what SFW has done with the influence the EXPO provides outside of the EXPO, then my answer would be an emphatic NO! I've seen what that influence has done to the hunters, fishermen/women and the animals we hunt/fish and what it has done to the SFW leadership and policy with all the entitlements, privileges, appointments, and arrogance it provides. A few instances:
- I saw it when 4 of the 7 governor-appointed voting members of the Wildlife Board were SFW members/officers.
- I saw it when they removed statewide archery deer hunting when only one RAC proposed it.
- I saw it when I was on the 2014 Mule Deer Committee when 2lumpy proposed we double the number of deer hunting units and make more LE units. And, when that didn't fly, he proposed we have an LE area in every current deer hunting unit. That didn't fly either.
- I saw it also on the 2014 Deer Committee when Bryon Bateman, Wildlife Board representative and Pres of SFW proposed we add the formation of SFW to the official records of the History of Utah Mule Deer Management. (We didn't.)
- I saw it when, as Pres. of United Wildlife Cooperative, we were invited to have "a" representative at a "Special" meeting regarding the issuing of Conservation Permits and when I got there, I saw 4 or 5 SFW reps, 2 or 3 MDF reps, several other organizations with 2, and only a few with one.
- And, again, I saw it at the end of that same meeting when they asked for a commitment from UWC to join the program (and I told them I would have to talk it over with the UWC Board first, and someone, I don't know who, said, "That sounds like a threat". (I don't think I stayed for refreshments!)
- I saw it when I read the SFW EXPO tag proposal where they stated they would be open to adding more tags and/or higher quality hunts to the EXPO program.
- I saw it again on the Parowan 3-year deer transplant when I was approached by a local reporter to give him a tour of the site, and when Donnie Hunter overheard us, he invited himself and when the tour was over, he did the interview with the reporter with no mention of UWC.
- AND, I see it time and time again at RAC meetings and Wildlife Board meetings when most of the things SFW proposes and/or supports are passed.

So, no matter who runs the EXPO with it's permit draw, it's likely to be such a tangled mess, that even the participants can't sort it out!

 

[Muley_73]

Somehow ISE, RV, FanX, and a dozen other convention/shows are capable of existing without us giving them tags.

If $fw wants to put on the expo, minus tags, good on them, and I probably would go.

But the tags were NEVER supposed to be auctioned to pay the "admin" costs of a trade show.

We wouldn't stand for the RV show getting 200 tags with $1.50 out of them covering their show. But we do $fw for some unknown reason.

Hoss,
You are comparing apples to oranges. Totally different events, different budgets, different attendees, they are not even comparable if you truly understand the dynamics and goal of each.

 

[hossblur]

Hoss,
You are comparing apples to oranges. Totally different events, different budgets, different attendees, they are not even comparable if you truly understand the dynamics and goal of each.

I'm not. Not in the least.

But ok.

How many tags does the ISE get? Same type of crowd. Same type of vendors.

Reality is the reality. If the expo draws nearly 60,000 people like $fw claims, it's perfectly capable of paying for itself.

The goal of those tags was to benefit wildlife. Not benefit a party planner.

 

[Tristate]

I'm not. Not in the least.

But ok.

How many tags does the ISE get? Same type of crowd. Same type of vendors.

Reality is the reality. If the expo draws nearly 60,000 people like $fw claims, it's perfectly capable of paying for itself.

The goal of those tags was to benefit wildlife. Not benefit a party planner.

The goal is to show hunting benefits everyone. Even non-hunters. And it's successful.

 

[hossblur]

The goal is to show hunting benefits everyone. Even non-hunters. And it's successful.

You woefully misunderstood the creation agreements of the 200 tags, if that's actually what you think

 

[hossblur]

I'm not. Not in the least. From the DWR website

The Utah Division of Wildlife Resources (DWR) operates the Wildlife Expo Permit Program, which has two primary purposes:
To generate revenue to fund wildlife conservation activities in Utah.
To attract a regional or national wildlife exposition to Utah.
As part of this program, the Utah Wildlife Board authorizes up to 200 hunting permits (expo permits) per year that are allocated to hunters through a public drawing held at a wildlife exposition.

How many tags does the ISE get? Same type of crowd. Same type of vendors.

Reality is the reality. If the expo draws nearly 60,000 people like $fw claims, it's perfectly capable of paying for itself.

The goal of those tags was to benefit wildlife and draw an exposition. Not benefit a party planner.

 

[Tristate]

You woefully misunderstood the creation agreements of the 200 tags, if that's actually what you think

Do you really believe what officials tell you?

C'mon????? Really?

Did you get a vaccine? Then the booster? Then the booster for the booster?

 

[Tristate]

Sounds like they have succeeded in both of their goals. Thanks for proving they did what they said they would do.

According to you they don't benefit the party planner. You say they are that big even if they don't have the tags. AND PEOPLE STILL GET THE TAGS. AND THE GOVERNMENT STILL GETS THE MO EY FOR THE TAGS.

So what are you crying about again. Do you realize you pi55ed away arguing about a non problem??????

 

[hossblur]

Sounds like they have succeeded in both of their goals. Thanks for proving they did what they said they would do.

According to you they don't benefit the party planner. You say they are that big even if they don't have the tags. AND PEOPLE STILL GET THE TAGS. AND THE GOVERNMENT STILL GETS THE MO EY FOR THE TAGS.

So what are you crying about again. Do you realize you pi55ed away arguing about a non problem??????

Your contribution was invaluable as always

 

[Tristate]

Your contribution was invaluable as always

I can read the future. Next year you will be here crying about 200 tags doing exactly what they are designed to do and nobody getting screwed.

 

[hossblur]

I can read the future. Next year you will be here crying about 200 tags doing exactly what they are designed to do and nobody getting screwed.

Your contribution was invaluable

 

[Tristate]

Your contribution was invaluable

I can tell the future while all you can do is cry about the past.

 

[hossblur]

I can tell the future while all you can do is cry about the past.

Your contribution was invaluable

 

[Muley_73]

I'm not. Not in the least.

But ok.

How many tags does the ISE get? Same type of crowd. Same type of vendors.

Reality is the reality. If the expo draws nearly 60,000 people like $fw claims, it's perfectly capable of paying for itself.

the goal of those tags was to benefit wildlife. Not benefit a party planner.

Hoss,
If you think that ISE and The Expo are drawing the same kind of crowds and the same people you are not paying attention to the entire event and whats going on around those events. They honestly not even close , maybe a tiny bit on the surface...but not really even close besides a handful of the same low end vendors.
I am sure you and your fellow complainer will say I'm being arrogant again when I say you don't know what you dont know and you only know what perception is being sold. But...it is what it is..and will continue to be.

As far as the 200 tags, they give most people a chance to draw where as the residents would never even get a chance at any of those tags. The money and how its spent from the 200 tags can be argued 10,273 ways from Sunday depending on what group you support. My opinion on that is they are all mostly spineless when it comes to helping our herds so pick your poison.

 

[hossblur]

Nothing that goes on "around " the show, not backrooms, no deals, no whatever, has anything to do with the tags.

My ability to do math, contradicts any "chance to draw" assertion. The odds are no better than the sportsman's tags.

Your boys could easily be vendors at a show without tags.

We don't need to pay $fw to put on TGEIR SHOW. They are the only group, with a show in Utah, that "needs" it.

RMEF offered to being at much larger show here, free of charge to our resource, and were denied.

Good stewardship of the resource doesn't mean auctioning it off so HUSH can run a t shirt booth

But again. Another of your posts about you "knowing" something no one else does

 

[Muley_73]

Nothing that goes on "around " the show, not backrooms, no deals, no whatever, has anything to do with the tags.

My ability to do math, contradicts any "chance to draw" assertion. The odds are no better than the sportsman's tags.

Your boys could easily be vendors at a show without tags.

We don't need to pay $fw to put on TGEIR SHOW. They are the only group, with a show in Utah, that "needs" it.

RMEF offered to being at much larger show here, free of charge to our resource, and were denied.

Good stewardship of the resource doesn't mean auctioning it off so HUSH can run a t shirt booth

But again. Another of your posts about you "knowing" something no one else does

And yet Hoss….it still rolls . Keep thinking you know cheif.

 

[elkfromabove]

And yet Hoss….it still rolls . Keep thinking you know cheif.

And why is it that you can't tell us what you know?

 

[Muley_73]

And why is it that you can't tell us what you know?

Can't??? I choose not to.

Why did Hawk drop the fight?

Why did Fishon have a smoking gun that never came to light?

Would you believe me if I said they actually won some of those biggest fights?

The yearly MM uprising is slightly entertaining at best. For Hoss to compare the expo with the ISE or the RV show is actually surprising and somewhat disappointing. While I argue with Hoss most times I gave him credit for being sharper than that comparison.

 

[hossblur]

Can't??? I choose not to.

Why did Hawk drop the fight?

Why did Fishon have a smoking gun that never came to light?

Would you believe me if I said they actually won some of those biggest fights?

The yearly MM uprising is slightly entertaining at best. For Hoss to compare the expo with the ISE or the RV show is actually surprising and somewhat disappointing. While I argue with Hoss most times I gave him credit for being sharper than that comparison.

The difference gentleman has nothing to do with the show. It has to do with the dudes THE DON schmoozes.

Muley has a vested interest in the show.


Hawkeye can speak for himself, but his being right, had little to do with who controls $$$.

 

[Muley_73]

The difference gentleman has nothing to do with the show. It has to do with the dudes THE DON schmoozes.

Muley has a vested interest in the show.


Hawkeye can speak for himself, but his being right, had little to do with who controls $$$.

Hoss,
If SFW was not at The Expo would Don still be there? You all are so hung up on SFW you don't even see the evolution of reality.

No vested interest for me.

 

[elkfromabove]

Can't??? I choose not to.

Why did Hawk drop the fight?

Why did Fishon have a smoking gun that never came to light?

Would you believe me if I said they actually won some of those biggest fights?

The yearly MM uprising is slightly entertaining at best. For Hoss to compare the expo with the ISE or the RV show is actually surprising and somewhat disappointing. While I argue with Hoss most times I gave him credit for being sharper than that comparison.

Then why do you choose not to?

It seems to me that if you had information that would shed a positive light on the EXPO and/or SFW, you'd be anxious to share it with us naysayers, but instead you play the ages old children's game of "Nah,nah,nah!! I have a secret that I'm not gonna tell you!" As it now stands, you're not doing SFW or yourself any favors by acting so childish.

 

[2lumpy]

If I knew anything positive regarding the Expo I would never share it……. Why would I share any new information for haters to use against it?

I hope Muley_73 nor anyone else won’t either. If folks haven’t learned anything over the 10 years, they should have learned that.

 

[Muley_73]

Then why do you choose not to?

It seems to me that if you had information that would shed a positive light on the EXPO and/or SFW, you'd be anxious to share it with us naysayers, but instead you play the ages old children's game of "Nah,nah,nah!! I have a secret that I'm not gonna tell you!" As it now stands, you're not doing SFW or yourself any favors by acting so childish.

elk,
The childishness is coming on MM and crying every year and sitting in the same poopy diaper. I'm not saying nah,nah,nah... I'm saying you are acting like a child that doesnt get their own way....every year to same tantrum. Even the "organized" tantrums haven't gotten you anywhere.

Again if you think they are the same you are childish or uneducated in your comparisons. Thats not my fault and I dont feel bad for pointing it out.

 

[Muley_73]

If I knew anything positive regarding the Expo I would never share it……. Why would I share any new information for haters to use against it?

I hope Muley_73 nor anyone else won’t either. If folks haven’t learned anything over the 10 years, they should have learned that.

Nothing positive or negative, it is what it is. That is the reality that seems to elude the MM evangelists.

 

[hossblur]

Hoss,
If SFW was not at The Expo would Don still be there? You all are so hung up on SFW you don't even see the evolution of reality.

No vested interest for me.

Don is everywhere there is profit to be made on wildlife.

You ever thought about just speaking straight and not constantly trying to be the riddler.

In the words you've used being yoda, you could have just informed the masses on your exclusive knowledge.

 

[Muley_73]

Don is everywhere there is profit to be made on wildlife.

You ever thought about just speaking straight and not constantly trying to be the riddler.

In the words you've used being yoda, you could have just informed the masses on your exclusive knowledge.

You could put your time toward reality instead of pouting behind a keyboard …but alas here we sit again this year….same expo, same tags, same diaper rash.

 

[hossblur]

You could put your time toward reality instead of pouting behind a keyboard …but alas here we sit again this year….same expo, same tags, same diaper rash.

And yet another coded message.

Explain reality, for this simpleton

 

[Tristate]

Me coming to Utah is reason enough to have an expo.

 

[elkassassin]

You Showin up This Year Tri?

Me coming to Utah is reason enough to have an expo.

 

[Tristate]

I want to. I have abig trap line I am finishing up a week before. If I get home and the house is in meltdown then I'm out. If everything is in good shape I'll grab a ticket and bunk out in your garage.

 

[257Tony]

The Expo continues to get bigger and bigger each year, they don't care if we support SFW or not. I still apply for a few tags each year, and go walk through on Thursday. I did pull tag several years back, I thought once you pulled one, you were supposed to be on some sort of secret list and keep getting them??

 

[treedagain]

The Expo continues to get bigger and bigger each year, they don't care if we support SFW or not. I still apply for a few tags each year, and go walk through on Thursday. I did pull tag several years back, I thought once you pulled one, you were supposed to be on some sort of secret list and keep getting them??

I thought the same thing? Drew 1 and now waiting on the next one.

 

[elkfromabove]

elk,
The childishness is coming on MM and crying every year and sitting in the same poopy diaper. I'm not saying nah,nah,nah... I'm saying you are acting like a child that doesnt get their own way....every year to same tantrum. Even the "organized" tantrums haven't gotten you anywhere.

Again if you think they are the same you are childish or uneducated in your comparisons. Thats not my fault and I dont feel bad for pointing it out.

Let's see! Because of our complaining:
1- The EXPO Partners are now: mandated to return $1.50 to wildlife where they weren't mandated to return anything back before.
2- Expo applicants are now limited to only one EXPO tag per year,
3- The EXPO and Conservation audits are much more transparent.
4- Cheatgrass is being sprayed using EXPO tag money.
5- Beginning in 2025, the DWR will probably no longer take EXPO tags from the regular public draw. (It's on the action log. See the Aug 17, 2023 Wildlife Board meeting video, 49:00.)

It takes a while, but eventually our efforts outweigh SFW's efforts. But we still have aways to go with the requirement to go to the EXPO site to verify the application and the wildlife mandated amount of the application fee is too low. (Some of our other concerns will be fixed by #5 above.)

FWIW, you need to pay attention to who says what on this forum. There is no organized tantrum and I never compared the EXPO with any other wildlife show.

 

[Muley_73]

Let's see! Because of our complaining:
1- The EXPO Partners are now: mandated to return $1.50 to wildlife where they weren't mandated to return anything back before.
2- Expo applicants are now limited to only one EXPO tag per year,
3- The EXPO and Conservation audits are much more transparent.
4- Cheatgrass is being sprayed using EXPO tag money.
5- Beginning in 2025, the DWR will probably no longer take EXPO tags from the regular public draw. (It's on the action log. See the Aug 17, 2023 Wildlife Board meeting video, 49:00.)

It takes a while, but eventually our efforts outweigh SFW's efforts. But we still have aways to go with the requirement to go to the SXPO site to verify the application and the wildlife mandated amount of the application fee is too low. (Some of our other concerns will be fixed by #5 above.)

FWIW, you need to pay attention to who says what on this forum. There is no organized tantrum and I never compared the EXPO with any other wildlife show.

elk,
I did not say you did. I said Hoss did.

So the DWR will be adding 200 more tags...instead taking them from the public draw? So those new 200 tags are coming from where?

If they are more transparent and the money is going where its suppose to why is there still crying.

Guess we will see in 2025. Wanna make any side bets on it?

 

[slamdunk]

Just a little FYI....

 

[hossblur]

elk,
I did not say you did. I said Hoss did.

So the DWR will be adding 200 more tags...instead taking them from the public draw? So those new 200 tags are coming from where?

If they are more transparent and the money is going where its suppose to why is there still crying.

Guess we will see in 2025. Wanna make any side bets on it?

"IF"

 

[Muley_73]

"IF"

Hoss,
EFA says it’s so…is he not right? Is he being non truthful? Or just hopeful? Is he just trying to feel better about the effort he puts in?

 

[hossblur]

Hoss,
EFA says it’s so…is he not right? Is he being non truthful? Or just hopeful? Is he just trying to feel better about the effort he puts in?

How would I know, I'm still waiting for your definition of reality.

 

[Muley_73]

How would I know, I'm still waiting for your definition of reality.

Correct

 

[hossblur]

Correct

 

[elkfromabove]

elk,
I did not say you did. I said Hoss did.

You didn't specify, but we'll let that pass, since it isn't pertinent to the discussion.

So the DWR will be adding 200 more tags...instead taking them from the public draw? So those new 200 tags are coming from where?

Apparently, they are additional tags coming directly from the units, without consideration of the unit general draw quotas. Next year's general draw tags will be determined May 2, 2024, but the EXPO tags will be determined until Sep 19, 2024, probably from an EXPO pool that doesn't yet exist. The DWR, through their unit biologists, have been shuffling the tags since big game has been managed, so it's just a matter of allocating those tags from units that can handle them. And with the EXPO tags, we can also shuffle them by species, so the new tags probably won't even be noticed or missed, (except by the OIL units maybe). And one or two additional tags certainly won't impact the buck to doe ratios nor the population objectives (except OIL, perhaps). In any case, they will no longer come from the general draws, so the EXPO draw will truly be an additional chance to draw though the odds are astronomical.

If they are more transparent and the money is going where its suppose to why is there still crying.

Because, in the opinions of many sportsmen, some of the money is being used for questionable projects and/or projects that mostly promote SFW, i.e.:
- Predator Managment --------------------------- -65,292.54
- Wheelchair in the Wild pheasant hunt
2022-------------------------------------------- -1,320.00
2023-------------------------------------------- -1,950.00
- Pheasant Facility ---------------------------------265,424.79
- Habitat Specialist Position--------------------------7,427.13
- SFW Upland Game Program----------------------85,861.96
- KSL Outdoors Conservation Education-----------21,755.63

I suppose we'll never please everyone, but we should determine if these projects are actually needed, benefit wildlife, aren't duplicated, aren't self-serving and are worthy of the time and money needed to accomplish them.

I'm not a betting man, but if the draw change doesn't happen, I'll send you a Sportsman's gift card. If it does happen, you owe me nothing. The change is enough for me!

 

[Muley_73]

You didn't specify, but we'll let that pass, since it isn't pertinent to the discussion.

Apparently, they are additional tags coming directly from the units, without consideration of the unit general draw quotas. Next year's general draw tags will be determined May 2, 2024, but the EXPO tags will be determined until Sep 19, 2024, probably from an EXPO pool that doesn't yet exist. The DWR, through their unit biologists, have been shuffling the tags since big game has been managed, so it's just a matter of allocating those tags from units that can handle them. And with the EXPO tags, we can also shuffle them by species, so the new tags probably won't even be noticed or missed, (except by the OIL units maybe). And one or two additional tags certainly won't impact the buck to doe ratios nor the population objectives (except OIL, perhaps). In any case, they will no longer come from the general draws, so the EXPO draw will truly be an additional chance to draw though the odds are astronomical.

Because, in the opinions of many sportsmen, some of the money is being used for questionable projects and/or projects that mostly promote SFW, i.e.:
- Predator Managment --------------------------- -65,292.54
- Wheelchair in the Wild pheasant hunt
2022-------------------------------------------- -1,320.00
2023-------------------------------------------- -1,950.00
- Pheasant Facility ---------------------------------265,424.79
- Habitat Specialist Position--------------------------7,427.13
- SFW Upland Game Program----------------------85,861.96
- KSL Outdoors Conservation Education-----------21,755.63

I suppose we'll never please everyone, but we should determine if these projects are actually needed, benefit wildlife, aren't duplicated, aren't self-serving and are worthy of the time and money needed to accomplish them.

I'm not a betting man, but if the draw change doesn't happen, I'll send you a Sportsman's gift card. If it does happen, you owe me nothing. The change is enough for me!

So elk you are saying that you are still crying because of the transparency, or at least some are ...because they don't agree with how the money is spent? Would this not be the case with or without the SFW? Would this not be the case with just the DWR? Or literally any group in any situation spending dollars?

The Expo tags are coming out of the resource anyway you cut it...If there is enough to add on some Expo tags are there not enough to add those tags back into the public draw? Please explain to me the win for those that don't want the Expo tags given? If the biologist say in Sept that they can add 200 tags for the Expo why couldnt they just add them to the general draw in May? Instead of the expo?

 

[elkassassin]

That Ain't All He's PISSED About!

The Day They Took His Apples Wasn't A Good Day!

Right efa?

So elk you are saying that you are still crying because of the transparency, or at least some are ...because they don't agree with how the money is spent? Would this not be the case with or without the SFW? Would this not be the case with just the DWR? Or literally any group in any situation spending dollars?

The Expo tags are coming out of the resource anyway you cut it...If there is enough to add on some Expo tags are there not enough to add those tags back into the public draw? Please explain to me the win for those that don't want the Expo tags given? If the biologist say in Sept that they can add 200 tags for the Expo why couldnt they just add them to the general draw in May? Instead of the expo?

 

[hossblur]

So elk you are saying that you are still crying because of the transparency, or at least some are ...because they don't agree with how the money is spent? Would this not be the case with or without the SFW? Would this not be the case with just the DWR? Or literally any group in any situation spending dollars?

The Expo tags are coming out of the resource anyway you cut it...If there is enough to add on some Expo tags are there not enough to add those tags back into the public draw? Please explain to me the win for those that don't want the Expo tags given? If the biologist say in Sept that they can add 200 tags for the Expo why couldnt they just add them to the general draw in May? Instead of the expo?

The DWR isn't a secondary special interest group. So comparing their accountability to $fw is silly at best.

Can you point to where The Don and Tony sold this auctioning of tags to grow grow pheasants to plant? Or for a joint venture with KSL? Or frankly to pay party coordinators, auctioneers, etc? How exactly does pen raised pheasants create conditions to help wildlife? How does a media company? They've become all encompassing. Their core and specific reason for creation, as laid out via Don and Tony, are nowhere near what they are doing today.


The second paragraph you are 100% correct on. If there is conditions for more tags, then the public should benefit, not a special interest group.

 

[elkassassin]

Hey Hossy!

Somebody Better Plant Some Pheasants For The Guys That Buy Small Game Licenses And That Like To Shoot A Bird Once In A While!

I Agree With You Though!

I Think We Ought To Keep Big Game Money Generated with Big Game!

But Who Would Plant Some Pheasants Then?

 

[Tristate]

The DWR isn't a secondary special interest group. So comparing their accountability to $fw is silly at best.

Can you point to where The Don and Tony sold this auctioning of tags to grow grow pheasants to plant? Or for a joint venture with KSL? Or frankly to pay party coordinators, auctioneers, etc? How exactly does pen raised pheasants create conditions to help wildlife? How does a media company? They've become all encompassing. Their core and specific reason for creation, as laid out via Don and Tony, are nowhere near what they are doing today.


The second paragraph you are 100% correct on. If there is conditions for more tags, then the public should benefit, not a special interest group.

Right now it looks like the public and special interests benefit.

Do you just hate that more people are happy?

 

[elkfromabove]

That Ain't All He's PISSED About!

The Day They Took His Apples Wasn't A Good Day!!

Right efa?

Right! It was done to stop some guides/outfitters from using piles of them to change the travel pattern of deer to private land setups. It didn't do that, They're still allowed to do that! What it did do was prevent me/you from using a couple dozen apples scattered around a waterhole the deer were already using in order to get a close, clear, level, standing broadside archery shot at a calm deer. And it prevents me/you from shooting a deer that is going to or coming from a baiting site or former baiting site that may still attract them.

 

[hossblur]

Right now it looks like the public and special interests benefit.

Do you just hate that more people are happy?

Your contribution was invaluable

 

[Tristate]

Your contribution was invaluable

And yours wasn't worth 2 cents

 

[Muley_73]

The DWR isn't a secondary special interest group. So comparing their accountability to $fw is silly at best.

Can you point to where The Don and Tony sold this auctioning of tags to grow grow pheasants to plant? Or for a joint venture with KSL? Or frankly to pay party coordinators, auctioneers, etc? How exactly does pen raised pheasants create conditions to help wildlife? How does a media company? They've become all encompassing. Their core and specific reason for creation, as laid out via Don and Tony, are nowhere near what they are doing today.


The second paragraph you are 100% correct on. If there is conditions for more tags, then the public should benefit, not a special interest group.

Hoss,
Thank you for proving the point I was trying to make to EFA.

 

[hossblur]

Right! It was done to stop some guides/outfitters from using piles of them to change the travel pattern of deer to private land setups. It didn't do that, They're still allowed to do that! What it did do was prevent me/you from using a couple dozen apples scattered around a waterhole the deer were already using in order to get a close, clear, level, standing broadside archery shot at a calm deer. And it prevents me/you from shooting a deer that is going to or coming from a baiting site or former baiting site that may still attract them.

What is the number of apples that would be acceptable? And what is the distance from each accepted number of apples before one could drop another acceptable amount? Would 1/4 apples count as a whole, or could one use 4x as many, and, if not using whole apples would that cut the distance between apple pikes that was acceptable?


Yup I'm being sarcastic.

Mainly because I live in Utah and understand Tard. The smallest sliver of grey area will be sought out and exploited. The spirit of a law, it's desired goal, attempts to not penalize are treated as open season.

Case in point. Tundra swans. The first year after the DWR eliminated the grey area being exploited , magically the season isn't shut for killing too many Trumpeters.


No one cares about your dozen apples, or your couple trail cams. Your argument is with the industry and the tards. Not the DWR

 

[hossblur]

And yours wasn't worth 2 cents

YOUR contribution was invaluable

 

[Tristate]

YOUR contribution was invaluable

So you gonna quit your annual titty baby fit?

 

[elkfromabove]

What is the number of apples that would be acceptable? And what is the distance from each accepted number of apples before one could drop another acceptable amount? Would 1/4 apples count as a whole, or could one use 4x as many, and, if not using whole apples would that cut the distance between apple pikes that was acceptable?


Yup I'm being sarcastic.

Mainly because I live in Utah and understand Tard. The smallest sliver of grey area will be sought out and exploited. The spirit of a law, it's desired goal, attempts to not penalize are treated as open season.

Case in point. Tundra swans. The first year after the DWR eliminated the grey area being exploited , magically the season isn't shut for killing too many Trumpeters.


No one cares about your dozen apples, or your couple trail cams. Your argument is with the industry and the tards. Not the DWR

Your contribution was invaluable!

 

[hossblur]

So you gonna quit your annual titty baby fit?

YOUR contribution was invaluable

 

[elkfromabove]

So elk you are saying that you are still crying because of the transparency, or at least some are ...because they don't agree with how the money is spent? Would this not be the case with or without the SFW? Would this not be the case with just the DWR? Or literally any group in any situation spending dollars?

Yes, it would be the case no matter who is spending the public's money.

The Expo tags are coming out of the resource anyway you cut it...If there is enough to add on some Expo tags are there not enough to add those tags back into the public draw? Please explain to me the win for those that don't want the Expo tags given? If the biologist say in Sept that they can add 200 tags for the Expo why couldnt they just add them to the general draw in May? Instead of the expo?

I don't know the details of the tag transfer nor how they will come up with a formula/analog, but Coby did say that they would no longer be taken out of the tags sent to the draw contractor (in Fallon NV). Since some units are doing better than others, those tags will be sorted out and will not come from the general draws.
No, they could not just be added to the general draw per current regulations.

 

[Bigwiffy]

If you support the expo chances are good you have a small peepee

 

[2lumpy]

If you support the expo chances are good you have a small peepee

I definitely do.

 

[2lumpy]

Regarding the Expo and would folks support it if someone other than SFW was involved.

Here’s a story that might share some light on the general public’s attitude regarding SFW and the EXPO.

When I was a volunteer for SFW, until a few years ago, I was asked to stand outside of the SWR Booth, right as you enter the exhibition hall, and gather signatures, by the SFW leadership folks, for a BLM/State of Utah habitat restoration project, down in the Panguitch area (I think it was. or maybe the Paunsagunt area, I don’t recall which unit it was for sure. Doesn’t matter anyway.)

As people entered the exhibition hall, I was just about the first person they met. I would just walk over and ask them if they would be willing to sign a habitat restoration petition. Most would ask two questions, what kind of habitat project and who was sponsoring it.

I would tell them about the project and I would tell them I was representing SFW and that they were one of the sportsmen’s groups that were sponsoring the project. I would then ask, are you familiar with SFW. At least 90% of the time, they would answer was, “no, who are they”………. literally standing under the EXPO’s SWF welcome banner. I would give them a little explanation as to SFW’s Mission etc. I would then ask if, they were aware SFW and MDF were co-sponsors for the EXPO, most answered, “Nope, didn’t know that. Where would you like me to sign.”

It was the same for all three days.

I don’t think I would believe that, if I had not been the one doing it. I was actually stunned by most peoples lack of knowledge and their real lack interest in conservation, in general.

After that experience I concluded most, if not nearly all the attendees (not the vendors) where there for one reason and it wasn’t to donate or contribute to wildlife conservation, to support MDF or SWF but to buy a raffle ticket for both the 200 offered by the State of Utah, buy raffle tickets for other species, boots, tents, bows, rifles, clothes, bid on gear and bid on auction tags at the banquets, wander the vendor floor to talk to outfitters, see new gear, meet old friends………. and in general have a good time, interacting with like minded sportsman.

Now…….. could another group do as well or better? Likely. There are a couple of other Outdoor Hunting events around the US, like the Great American Outdoor Show is a nine-day event in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania that celebrates hunting, fishing, and outdoor traditions, Safari Club in Las Vegas, Dallas Safari Club, Shot Show, etc. All all are very successful and all successful because they are well run and are marketed very well by the people that put them together.

On the other hand, there are hundreds, if not thousands of other outdoor hunting/fishing shows that are held every year, some are moderately successful other fadeaway for lack of good management.

The Western Hunting Expo has continued to be successful and apparently continued to grow. I would say, that is because it has been run well, with mostly satisfied attendees and a growing number of vendors.

In my personal opinion, most of the attendees don’t know anything at all about the two host organizations and whether or not a different host than either: SFW and or MDF would be better or worse. I believe the only way the State or the public would know, one way or the other would be to take a chance and give it at try. Personally I wouldn’t take a chance, based on the idea that if it ain’t broke don’t screw with it, cuz you might well destroy what most of the public think is a fun, satisfactory event.

Changing an event host is a calculated risk……… guess we’ll have to see if the State still thinks that……. the next time they send out a RFP.

Just my opinion of course.

 

[hossblur]

Regarding the Expo and would folks support it if someone other than SFW was involved.

Here’s a story that might share some light on the general public’s attitude regarding SFW and the EXPO.

When I was a volunteer for SFW, until a few years ago, I was asked to stand outside of the SWR Booth, right as you enter the exhibition hall, and gather signatures, by the SFW leadership folks, for a BLM/State of Utah habitat restoration project, down in the Panguitch area (I think it was. or maybe the Paunsagunt area, I don’t recall which unit it was for sure. Doesn’t matter anyway.)

As people entered the exhibition hall, I was just about the first person they met. I would just walk over and ask them if they would be willing to sign a habitat restoration petition. Most would ask two questions, what kind of habitat project and who was sponsoring it.

I would tell them about the project and I would tell them I was representing SFW and that they were one of the sportsmen’s groups that were sponsoring the project. I would then ask, are you familiar with SFW. At least 90% of the time, they would answer was, “no, who are they”………. literally standing under the EXPO’s SWF welcome banner. I would give them a little explanation as to SFW’s Mission etc. I would then ask if, they were aware SFW and MDF were co-sponsors for the EXPO, most answered, “Nope, didn’t know that. Where would you like me to sign.”

It was the same for all three days.

I don’t think I would believe that, if I had not been the one doing it. I was actually stunned by most peoples lack of knowledge and their real lack interest in conservation, in general.

After that experience I concluded most, if not nearly all the attendees (not the vendors) where there for one reason and it wasn’t to donate or contribute to wildlife conservation, to support MDF or SWF but to buy a raffle ticket for both the 200 offered by the State of Utah, buy raffle tickets for other species, boots, tents, bows, rifles, clothes, bid on gear and bid on auction tags at the banquets, wander the vendor floor to talk to outfitters, see new gear, meet old friends………. and in general have a good time, interacting with like minded sportsman.

Now…….. could another group do as well or better? Likely. There are a couple of other Outdoor Hunting events around the US, like the Great American Outdoor Show is a nine-day event in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania that celebrates hunting, fishing, and outdoor traditions, Safari Club in Las Vegas, Dallas Safari Club, Shot Show, etc. All all are very successful and all successful because they are well run and are marketed very well by the people that put them together.

On the other hand, there are hundreds, if not thousands of other outdoor hunting/fishing shows that are held every year, some are moderately successful other fadeaway for lack of good management.

The Western Hunting Expo has continued to be successful and apparently continued to grow. I would say, that is because it has been run well, with mostly satisfied attendees and a growing number of vendors.

In my personal opinion, most of the attendees don’t know anything at all about the two host organizations and whether or not a different host than either: SFW and or MDF would be better or worse. I believe the only way the State or the public would know, one way or the other would be to take a chance and give it at try. Personally I wouldn’t take a chance, based on the idea that if it ain’t broke don’t screw with it, cuz you might well destroy what most of the public think is a fun, satisfactory event.

Changing an event host is a calculated risk……… guess we’ll have to see if the State still thinks that……. the next time they send out a RFP.

Just my opinion of course.

I think your opinion is dead on.

The issue is $fw, mainly the Don know this, and so they exploit it.

57,000 folks didn't attend the expo to support $fw or their vision. They showed up for the things you stated.

Yet. When the legislature gets talked to by $fw, they use those attendance numbers as "support".

When Rc Willeys was in Syracuse I'd drive by on free hot dog day. Folks would circle the building.

Their hotdogs weren't good, most folks purchased nothing, but to the avg person driving by, they'd think RC willeys must be the greatest if folks will line up for its opening. I saw pics in advertising they did of hot dog day.

Very few legislators know, or care aboutv $fw either. But 57,000 possible voters "supporting" them speaks volumes.


I'm sure they run a great show. But that's not the point

 

[Tristate]

 

[Deerlove]

I think your opinion is dead on.

The issue is $fw, mainly the Don know this, and so they exploit it.

57,000 folks didn't attend the expo to support $fw or their vision. They showed up for the things you stated.

Yet. When the legislature gets talked to by $fw, they use those attendance numbers as "support".

When Rc Willeys was in Syracuse I'd drive by on free hot dog day. Folks would circle the building.

Their hotdogs weren't good, most folks purchased nothing, but to the avg person driving by, they'd think RC willeys must be the greatest if folks will line up for its opening. I saw pics in advertising they did of hot dog day.

Very few legislators know, or care aboutv $fw either. But 57,000 possible voters "supporting" them speaks volumes.


I'm sure they run a great show. But that's not the point

Yet sfw was bragging is fall about having 9,000 members?

 

[elkassassin]

Hey efa!

The CHUM/Apple Piles Are Still Quite Common On The South End Of The State!

You Just Gotta Look Harder To Find Them!

 

[SS!]

Hossy and Miley 73 going at it in real life:

 

[Muley_73]

Hossy and Miley 73 going at it in real life:

That works!

Also can someone please explain to me where these Sept Expo tags are coming from? Apparently they don't count as real tags according to the biologist...because they are issued after May.....or something like that ???

 

[hossblur]

Hossy and Miley 73 going at it in real life:

Um, so does that make Lumpy the woman?

 

[SS!]

Um, so does that make Lumpy the woman?

YES!!!!

 

[MrShane]

The only tags that should be made available for the Expo to give away should be the undersubscribed tags from the previous year!

 

[hossblur]

View attachment 132506

 

[elkassassin]

An Under-Subscribed Permit In DRATville?

That'd Be A Big Ole Goose Egg!

The only tags that should be made available for the Expo to give away should be the undersubscribed tags from the previous year!

 

[Muley_73]

The only tags that should be made available for the Expo to give away should be the undersubscribed tags from the previous year!

I’d rather have the chance to draw one of the 200. In the regular draw your chances are 2 chances . At the expo you have 200 chances.

 

[elkassassin]

Is The Picture Your Work spj?

View attachment 132548

 

[smokepolejohnson]

Is The Picture Your Work spj?

Lol, no I came up a little sHoRt. gotta give props to hossy. I didnt realize those old school wrangler brush popper shirts were available in those sizes. #RipVernTroyer

 

[Tristate]

 

[elkfromabove]

Hey efa!

The CHUM/Apple Piles Are Still Quite Common On The South End Of The State!

You Just Gotta Look Harder To Find Them!

Unfortunately, I do have to look harder to find them in order not to be cited for hunting within 50 yards of them or hunting an animal that is lured to or coming from the apple piles (no distance given). For all the grief you give me about what I now have to do in order not be cited, guess what, SO DO YOU!

How about we just drop the apple issue and get on with the EXPO tag issues!

 

[elkfromabove]

That works!

Also can someone please explain to me where these Sept Expo tags are coming from? Apparently they don't count as real tags according to the biologist...because they are issued after May.....or something like that ???

Sure, someone can explain where these tags are coming from! That would be Coby at the RAC meetings beginning on August 27 through September 5. And then at the Wildlife Board meeting September 19.

 

[elkfromabove]

Regarding the Expo and would folks support it if someone other than SFW was involved.

Here’s a story that might share some light on the general public’s attitude regarding SFW and the EXPO.

When I was a volunteer for SFW, until a few years ago, I was asked to stand outside of the SWR Booth, right as you enter the exhibition hall, and gather signatures, by the SFW leadership folks, for a BLM/State of Utah habitat restoration project, down in the Panguitch area (I think it was. or maybe the Paunsagunt area, I don’t recall which unit it was for sure. Doesn’t matter anyway.)

As people entered the exhibition hall, I was just about the first person they met. I would just walk over and ask them if they would be willing to sign a habitat restoration petition. Most would ask two questions, what kind of habitat project and who was sponsoring it.

I would tell them about the project and I would tell them I was representing SFW and that they were one of the sportsmen’s groups that were sponsoring the project. I would then ask, are you familiar with SFW. At least 90% of the time, they would answer was, “no, who are they”………. literally standing under the EXPO’s SWF welcome banner. I would give them a little explanation as to SFW’s Mission etc. I would then ask if, they were aware SFW and MDF were co-sponsors for the EXPO, most answered, “Nope, didn’t know that. Where would you like me to sign.”

It was the same for all three days.

I don’t think I would believe that, if I had not been the one doing it. I was actually stunned by most peoples lack of knowledge and their real lack interest in conservation, in general.

After that experience I concluded most, if not nearly all the attendees (not the vendors) where there for one reason and it wasn’t to donate or contribute to wildlife conservation, to support MDF or SWF but to buy a raffle ticket for both the 200 offered by the State of Utah, buy raffle tickets for other species, boots, tents, bows, rifles, clothes, bid on gear and bid on auction tags at the banquets, wander the vendor floor to talk to outfitters, see new gear, meet old friends………. and in general have a good time, interacting with like minded sportsman.

Now…….. could another group do as well or better? Likely. There are a couple of other Outdoor Hunting events around the US, like the Great American Outdoor Show is a nine-day event in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania that celebrates hunting, fishing, and outdoor traditions, Safari Club in Las Vegas, Dallas Safari Club, Shot Show, etc. All all are very successful and all successful because they are well run and are marketed very well by the people that put them together.

On the other hand, there are hundreds, if not thousands of other outdoor hunting/fishing shows that are held every year, some are moderately successful other fadeaway for lack of good management.

The Western Hunting Expo has continued to be successful and apparently continued to grow. I would say, that is because it has been run well, with mostly satisfied attendees and a growing number of vendors.

In my personal opinion, most of the attendees don’t know anything at all about the two host organizations and whether or not a different host than either: SFW and or MDF would be better or worse. I believe the only way the State or the public would know, one way or the other would be to take a chance and give it at try. Personally I wouldn’t take a chance, based on the idea that if it ain’t broke don’t screw with it, cuz you might well destroy what most of the public think is a fun, satisfactory event.

Changing an event host is a calculated risk……… guess we’ll have to see if the State still thinks that……. the next time they send out a RFP.

Just my opinion of course.

We're not changing an event host! We're just turning the EXPO Permits over to another event. SFW & MDF can still have their Hunting and Conservation show with all the auctions, entertainment, food, booths, etc. and the EXPO Permits can go a bigger and better show.

 

[hossblur]

View attachment 132570

 

[2lumpy]

We're not changing an event host! We're just turning the EXPO Permits over to another event. SFW & MDF can still have their Hunting and Conservation show with all the auctions, entertainment, food, booths, etc. and the EXPO Permits can go a bigger and better show.

Interesting.

Flesh that out a little more, if you don’t mind. Maybe it can gain some more support.

 

[elkfromabove]

Interesting.

Flesh that out a little more, if you don’t mind. Maybe it can gain some more support.

Utah expo permit and conservation funding

The Utah Division of Wildlife Resources serves the people of Utah by managing and protecting the state's wildlife.

wildlife.utah.gov

see questions #2 & #4

Edited: Note that the new organization is not given the rights to use any prior expo organizer's event name, venue dates, exhibitors or scheduled events and activities.

 

[2lumpy]

Okay……. fleshed out….

Truly profound, but I’m not sure that’s going to move the needle much toward a change in who the 200 tags will be awarded to but thanks for sharing……. but you’ll certainly have the freedom to throw your support behind the next State’s RFP.

 

[Tristate]