Is SFW cut out to be what it supposed to be.

cantkillathing · Jan 19, 2005

I posted a message about how the SFW doesn't allow the members to vote on issues, so therefore how do they say that they support things, For example, there was the issue of shutting down limited entry units to allow them to come back to the respectful deer herds that they should have. The SFW opposed this and didn't agree with it, talking with members of the SFW they say that they were disappointed because they didn't get to vote on this issue, nor do they vote on any issue. So why be a member of the group if your opinion or voice is never herd, sounds like somebody is making a bunch of money as the head of the group and doesn't care what the members think. I would think that for certain issues the members should have a pole on, but Brian here in his message states that it would cost to much to pole the members, how would it cost to much? 10,000 members at $25 a year is $250,000.00, 10,000 envelopes and stamps maybe $.50 which is $5,000.00, that would leave $245,000.00 to pay the board for there great efforts. Here below is waht Brain had to say. Maybe I am just sour because of the way the deer managment is going in Utah, but I disagree that members don't get to vote on issues that effect them. I won't even go into the new elk managment plan that the SFW supported which is a bunch of Crap, anyway I would like to know why people join the SFW if they don't get to be herd as members.
Yes, I am bitter about managment.
Brians comment-
If SFW polled its members for every issue, it would cost more than they could possibly raise. They'd go broke very fast. It costs money to do most polls.
Second of all, there would still be people complaining, because not everyone would want things the same. In fact, it's hard to find 2 people who agree on how things should work, let alone 10,000.
If you have suggestions or concerns as a member, you can always voice them to the local chapter chair person, who is usually an SFW board member. They will then voice the concerns of the folks in their chapter to the entire SFW board.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com

Founder · Jan 19, 2005

Now multiple that $5,000 by several dozen issues that are discussed at board meetings every year.

I don't think many non-profit organizations anywhere send a polling letter out everytime they decide to do something. Bottomline is, it costs a LOT, the results would still be very mixed, and most importantly---it would take a long time to receive letters back and process the data. To process the data collected from 10,000 returned letters would cost more than mailing them.

The website could definitely be used to "get a feel" for how members feel about certain issues. However, that is beeing done in some cases. The problem is, there will still be people who will complain about that.

Ya can't please everyone! It's impossible. So SFW and other groups do their best with what they got.

Again, if you have suggestions or concerns as a member, you can always voice them to the local chapter chair person, who is usually an SFW board member. They will then voice the concerns of the folks in their chapter to the entire SFW board.
That's how most (MDF, RMEF, & SFW) wildlife organizations work.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com

COHunter · Jan 19, 2005

My only question for the SFW group is:

When are they coming to Colorado !!!!

ktc · Jan 19, 2005

If anyone spends money on paper and stamps in today's day and age for a survey, that would be borderline dumb. There are survey websites that you can use for free. Getting the groups opinion is easy. Send out emails with the survey link attached. There is an idea. I will say it again, if you do plan on a survey, please, do it right and get an accurate survey result that reflects the opinions. One or two yes or no questions can fill the bill.

I agree that things need to be done in regards to the group's opinion, however, I do see the problem of pleasing everyone and that will never happen. However, I read post after post where people are concerned about the Delta Center Super Bowl and no action is taken in regard to those concerns, drop the idea, change the idea, or convince the majority that this is a good thing. If the job is too big or difficult, don't step out and take center stage. I can agree with you Brian on this part. When a public service is performed you are taking on a daunting task making things good for everyone. Look at the personalities that exist. Many people are just plain unreasonable and unfortunately, some do not possess a brain.

Come back to Utah Smokestick and head up the group. I get the feeling you do your best to listen to everyone. I enjoy jostling with you about the issues. ;-) The Wyoming SFW folks are lucky.

I would like to continue to support SFW. Just please don't wreck the elk and please, please, please, fix the deer problem. 50,000 tags is enough for now! Elk prices can be doubled, so can deer.

Colville · Jan 19, 2005

SFW already has a web site. For far less than $5000 you can create a utility for any member to access and register for a member ID, an ID # that is their's alone. You can then poll via the Web at your web site. Members log in, use their private ID (insuring only one vote per member) and collect the data simply and accurately.

It is simply dishonest in this tech world to say that collecting this data would be too expensive. No stamps, no mail. It would cost a few bucks for the web developer and maybe some software but thereafter you'd have a clean, inexpensive, acurate way to get the feedback you desire on ANY issue you care to put to the members.

Or maybe, the feedback really isn't desired? I mean, if you did poll in this way you'd spend a bunch of time explaining why what you do and what your membership wants aren't in concert. Or maybe you'd have to spend more time actaully educating folks and convincing them of the correctness of your position? Or maybe you'd have to change your positions on issues? In any event, who wants a such a responsive, collaborative and transparent organization. Only the members I guess.

fatrooster · Jan 20, 2005

Like it is mentioned above, voting over the internet would be easy.
As far as making everybody happy, that will never happen. But if SFW makes all of the decisions they aren't gonna make everybody happy anyway. At least with a vote you can make the majority happy and not just a few. Its called Democracy and our country is based on it. If SFW is gonna take money from sportsmen then they should give these people what they pay for. A voice.
I don't understand why a group or organization such as this has so much controversy. We are all hunters after the same thing. Healthy herds and healthy habitat. I really like the things that Don Peay writes in these post. Other than that I don't know him from Adam. But I still say that a vote is the American way. fatrooster.

338boy · Jan 20, 2005

SFW board members are elected by local chapter membership.

Board members meet and discuss issues.The board then votes on the issues.

They then support the issue as a group.(even tho there is rarely a unanimous vote.)

If the membership wants changes they can vote on new board members.

There are about 30 board members, so each area of the state is represented.

The legislature, the senate ,the congress and large corporation boards don't poll the people they represent on every little issue.

The polls said GW would loose the White House!!!!

SFW could spend time polling or fixing habitat.Their record of accomplishments speaks for it's self.Although some will never agree with what they do .Thats OK.

For those who will remember in 93 when they started there were very few trophy quality animals on public land in Ut.
Why do most(99%) of the stories about trohy animals come from public land???

Who got the deer tags capped at 97,000 down from 180,000.

I think some people think all the good in this state was FM.

For all of you who continueally bark from behind your computer. Tell us what you have done or better yet how you will fix things in one year.

You sound like the demacant's who keep whineing about the war, Yet offer no solutions,just B##CH,B##CH B##CH.

Americans love sucess and hate successful people!

338boy

cantkillathing · Jan 21, 2005

338boy,
Well the funny thing is that we are giving solutions, have the members vote, I again ask why be a member of SFW if you can't vote on issues, did we not get to vote for the President of U.S., I don't get why members don't get to vote on hunting issues, the board may be corrupt as far as I know, taking the members money and buying themselves things they want. Atleast if the members all get a chance to vote, you can see where the majority will like to see things happen. of course you won't please everyone, but the majority rules, ask George W.
Well the SFW has supported the new elk managment plan which will make utah a rag horn state once again. Thanks SFW, I appreciate the fact that you take money and not take our input.

cantkillathing · Jan 21, 2005

SOLUTION:
SFW already has a web site. For far less than $5000 you can create a utility for any member to access and register for a member ID, an ID # that is their's alone. You can then poll via the Web at your web site. Members log in, use their private ID (insuring only one vote per member) and collect the data simply and accurately.
It is simply dishonest in this tech world to say that collecting this data would be too expensive. No stamps, no mail. It would cost a few bucks for the web developer and maybe some software but thereafter you'd have a clean, inexpensive, acurate way to get the feedback you desire on ANY issue you care to put to the members.

2_Point · Jan 21, 2005

Cantkillathing- Why be a member of the United States of America?? When was the last time you were polled by your Senator or Congressman on a law or decision?? You want to have a say, then go talk with the Local Committee Chairman, who may or may not take your idea to the Board Meeting.

I emailed my City councilman the other day about a developement across the street from my house, he voted the exact opposite of what my desires were. I have 3 choices: 1- move 2- run for city council 3- get on with my life.

All that said, I do agree that there should be some kind of polling if it was cost effective. BUT, when SFW did its poll on the Elk Plan there was an outcry from the many that it wasn't fair, or it was biased, or it didn't give enough options, or it was directing the answers, etc.

fatrooster · Jan 21, 2005

Those are some good points 338boy. I am a big supporter of George W but I don't agree with him spending 40 million on a friggin inarguation. In a time when hurricanes, sunamis, starvation etc, etc are beating up on the world I can think of some better ways to spend some of that money. Heck, he could've given a couple millions towards deer management, lol.(just kidding) But the point is, just because an organization doesn't do every thing that you agree with does not mean that it isn't doing good. SFW stands for great causes and the track record sounds pretty good. But they aren't always gonna make every individual happy all of the time. But they are fighting to make things better. I am not involved with SFW so I do not know how much about them is bullshit and how much is honest. And I don't agree with everything that they do but they ARE doing something and thats better than doing nothing. fatrooster.

sneakem · Jan 21, 2005

I don't know much about the SFW but it seems to me that it is a lot like the government. You elect representatives that share your feeling and beliefs. If the majority of you support an idea, shouldn't the people you elect be doing the same. If the majority disagree should you be able to remove them when the time comes. If you can't your obviously in the minority and as in the U.S. government, suck it up or change the majorities mind. Just because some people don't like Bush or their congressmen, does that mean they shouldn't be in office. No because the majority rules. If you don't like who's representing you, You are the only ones that can do something about it.

cantkillathing · Jan 21, 2005

I didn't get to vote on everything, but during election time did we not get to vote about gay marriages, and the other iniatives that were proposed, atleast we voted on some issues. Again, maybe it's not about what the members want just what the board wants, money and power to do what they want. You can't get rid of the board as far as I know your all relatives or friends that are in the same scheme of things.

Colville · Jan 21, 2005

Am I to understand that SFW would Stand head high and say "see, we are as efficient and responsive as your federaly elected officials and fucntion in a similar fashion, be glad."

Is that the high standard SFW wants to be held to?... scoff.

It is that election process without real attention to the will of the goverened that allows people (bod members) to both vote against will of membership and still claim it "fair".

SFW can chose or not chose to make it's memberships desires fully accountable and known at very little expense. You don't have to make the polling of members the functional choice of the organization. The BOD members can/could collect that info AND vote/make decisions against the popular position. But, and this is the whole point, they'd have to do so and be accountable in a transparent and REAL TIME way. Not a year later or however often they are elected.

Using our federal democracy, it's lobbying, ineffeciency and patronizing "we know what's best for you" attitude as a model is a both a cop out and an insult.

If you are for your position, fine. Just stand up and shove it in the face of your membership in real time. If you are right, or close enough that you'll still get elected again, bully for you. Like I said before, the reason not to collect the members opinions is to be able to AVOID both immediate accountability and not having to provide a convincing argument for your point of view that leads to YOUR position being the popular one.

The argument of "so what have you done that's so great for wildlife" is specious. It's a distraction from the fact that management doesnt want a continuous spotlight on both processes and descisions that make up the very reason to, or NOT to be a member.

That's a crying shame.

SMOKESTICK · Jan 22, 2005

Has anyone attempted to talk with the Board member representing them? I have read a lot of debates on MM, but seldom has anyone stated that they spoke with their representative.

I can state that communication is and always will be a major factor; both good and bad. If no one talks with the people making the decisions, who is to blame? The decision makers or those they are attempting to represent?

Communication works both ways; however, the SFW bylaws state that members give their money freely. If you don't like what SFW is doing then don't support them. It is really that simple. I would encourage you to learn who is representing you and contact them. SFW's Board has never turned a blind eye or a deaf ear towards their members; however, it is virtually impossible to make all decisions based upon polls. Some decisions need to be made in a timely manner, some can be discussed; but, as has been stated on other posts, you can not please everyone all of the time.

Debates which take place on MM are great but if you are a member of SFW your discussions should be taking place with your representative as well.

cantkillathing · Jan 24, 2005

There has been board members on this site, reading just we have discussed, maybe they could bring it up in there meetings, they have obviously heard the complaints, but will they do something about it is the question?

3DaughterMan · Jan 24, 2005

Preface: I have not yet formed an opinion of SFW. I believe you are right about creating a way to cheaply poll members over the internet using an ID and password. But, you say that it is only $25 to join. (I am not a member and don't know much about the Organization) Well, if you were an environmentalist group, you could get all your members to sign up and boom, you could influence the vote from your living room anywhere in the world. The system they have now sounds like you must have a personal conversation with one of the leaders or show up at a meeting and wave your arms and yell. I agree, that knowing the SFW vote usually represents the majority of members would be nice. It seems as though you could go to a meeting at the local or regional level and do your own investigation. A sample poll would typically represent the majority. If you found a discrepency a few times, you could push the issue of more member polling. Additionally, I agree that the federal government style of using lobbyist and lawyers is not the way to run a local group. People join these types of groups so individually, they have the opportunity to have a larger voice, then people with the same interests can have an even larger voice. Just a few thoughts,

3DM possibly 4

Founder · Jan 24, 2005

I'll be honest with you cantkillathing, I feel like if you want a board member to take your suggestions to the board, you should atleast attend a committee meeting and voice it to an entire committee.
Heck, I don't even know who you are.
The Salt Lake City Chapter of SFW welcomes anyone to our meetings. Come visit and share your thoughts. Of course we would ask you to help us out with our banquet, but if all you want to do is show up and voice your thoughts, feel free. Call me anytime and I'll keep you posted on when the next meeting is.

But, if you expect me to read the forums here, then represent what you think----sorry. If you're passionate about what you want to see happen in Utah and have a plan to make it happen, then you'll need to present it to our entire committee, answer questions, etc. If you have a good plan, any SFW board member would be happy to back it.

SFW DOES conduct online polls, but they are only useful for giving a hint as to how member's feel. Because there is no way to validate who is behind the computer, or the sample, there is no way to have a real accurate online polling situation.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com