Lead ammunition ban

C

ColoradoOak

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Petition Seeks to Outlaw Lead Ammunition
Yasmina Dardari | 10/17/14

In a new Care2 petition, Paula Brown, a raptor rehabilitator from Broomfield, Colorado is asking the Colorado Parks and Wildlife Commission to ban the use of lead ammunition by hunters after a number of birds have been brought into her facilities with lead poisoning.

The Care2 petition, which has been signed by more than 9,000 people since launching in late September (including more than 907 people in Colorado), is paired with a legal petition that Brown will present to the Parks and Wildlife Commission at its meetings on November 13 and 14.

View the petition here: http://www.care2.com/go/z/COlead

Brown says she was spurred to action after the facility received a bald eagle and two turkey vultures with lead poisoning in the span of just two weeks. Many birds ingest the toxin when they eat ammunition fragments left in carrion.

?We did a lead test on all of [the birds],? Brown told Care2. ?One of the turkey vultures was above the highest readings for lead and upon x-ray, [we found] he had about 10 lead pellets in his digestive tract. His stomach was pumped and we are now getting ready to release both of the turkey vultures.?

But the ending was not so happy for the bald eagle. ?The day I had to help euthanize her was the day I decided I was going to work towards getting lead banned in Colorado,? Brown says.

California banned lead ammunition for hunting in 2013, with full implementation of the ban expected to take place in 2019. The U.S. military has also announced it will switch to ?green ammunition? ? a bullet in which lead is replaced with a less toxic tungsten composite ? by 2018.

Brown has until October 30 to gather signatures before the comment deadline ends. The Parks and Wildlife Commission meeting will take place at the ​Burlington Community & Education Center November 13 and 14 from 8:30am. to 5pm.

For more information, or for interviews with Paula Brown, please contact Yasmina Dardari at 407-922-8149 or by email at [email protected].

Care2 (www.Care2.com) is a community of 25 million standing together for good. People are making world-changing impact with Care2, starting petitions and supporting each other?s campaigns to help individuals, animals and the environment. A pioneer of online advocacy since 1998, Care2 is a B Corporation, or social enterprise, using the power of business as a force for good.
 
So they have a total of only 900 signatures from Colorado despite being part of a huge anti hunting community! Let's watch this closely! All human activity has I intended consequences on the environment but the lead ban is one of the stupidest ideas ever!

Our wildlife officers and law enforcement have much more important things to worry about! Hope I can make t to the meeting!
 
As a Colorado resident, I personally think that is a step in the correct direction. My entire hunting group and myself switched to non-toxic bullets (Barnes TTSX and TSX) last year because we didn't want to eat anymore game meat that could have lead fragments in it. Its widely known that lead is toxic at incrediably small amounts and if Colorado does this then maybe more bullet manufactures will start offering more options for non-toxic bullets in more calibers. Additionally, if there is a bigger market for non-toxic bullets then the price for non-toxic bullets will come down as the economy of scale of manufacturing bullets will be there. I'm going to sign that petition.

On a side note, full copper bullets (TTSX and TSX) absolutely thump deer and elk just as good and if not better than lead bullets.
 
From the limited reading I've done, the CA ban was based on flawed science. I could be wrong and if so anyone can point that out.

Basing the laws on flawed science isn't the right way to approach this.

I'd be curious from a mfg standpoint if mass production across the board will really bring the price down.
 
the
>lead ban is one of
>the stupidest ideas ever!


Can you explain why you think this? Banning lead from gasoline and paint was a huge public health and environmental victory that you, I and our families are benefiting from now. Why would you want to have even trace amounts of lead in your steaks or burgers or in surface waters or in scavengers and birds of prey. There are already alternative bullets out there that are just as effective at killing animals without the potential toxic side effect on the environment or your health as lead. If anything this ban will make the non-toxic bullets more affordable and lessen the risk that lead poisioning or bioaccumulation poses. We as hunters are supposed to be the ultimate conservationist, correct? Shouldn't that conservation extend to nongame species, water quality and public health too?

I truely do not understand any reason that people would be against this other than people are afraid of change or inaccurately label it as a gun control measure.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-17-14 AT 12:03PM (MST)[p]On page two of the 2013 Colorado big game regulation the CPW already warns hunters about the potential health risk to consuming lead and lead shot animals.

If you take the time to educate yourself on the fundamental principles of microeconomics (economis of scale) you will understand why non-toxic bullet prices will come down when there is an increased demand and production for non-toxic bullets. Economies of scale is the exact reason the prices of holdhold goods is cheaper at walmart and Costco than at any mom and pops store.

I can't find any flawed science in this topic. The science is the exact same as what was used to ban lead paint and leaded gasoline. (Lead is known to be toxic, it is known that there is a high potential that there is lead fragments in game meat shot with lead bullets) Do you really think that people are more likely to eat paint chips or an elk burger? If you look at the probablity of ingestion, then lead contraminated meat IMO is way more likely to pose a threat to my health than me eating lead paint chips off a window seal.
 
Both my grandmothers are in the 90s, my grandfathers were in the 80s before they passed. They grew up hunting and eating wild game shot with lead bullets and probably teethed on window sills.
I would be happy to make it past 60 just from stress.
Rick
 
Well it is just more BS regulation. I as a hunter can choose what risk I wish to take and to not take! I will use lead and have no real concerns at all about lead in my meat! It is bogus and really does not present any risk to me or my family. You may choose to use a different ammo and that is far more important to me. Freedom of choice is much better than giving up freedom under the false pretense of security and safety!

Show me one case where a person who has eaten lead shot game has been poisoned? Also there is great debate over all the science. For I simply do not need the government controlling my every choice!
 
I was totally against such a ban for the last few years, but I am slowly coming around to it. I am shooting non-lead because I had a pregnant wife and toddlers, but I think I am going to stick with it. I use my lead ammo at the range now.

Here are some interesting reads, not sure how bias they are, but still interesting:

A North Dakota study examined ground venison packages that had been donated by hunters to food pantries. It found that 59% of the packages had lead fragments.
http://www.nps.gov/pinn/naturescience/upload/0111 Cornatzer.pdf



Another NPS link says:
A recent study that was conducted and will soon be published, examined the prevalence of lead bullet fragments in packaged venison. Thirty different white-tailed deer were harvested using lead rifle bullets and then given to 30 different game meat processors, with the instructions of processing the animals using customary practices and providing the researchers packages containing steaks and ground meat. These packages were then randomly selected and x-rayed to see how many contained lead bullet fragments. Of the 324 randomly selected packages of ground venison, 34% contained metal fragments; some packages contained as many a 168 separate pieces. Further analysis positively identified the metal as 93% lead and 7 % copper. This demonstrates that while the results are preliminary and much further study needs to be done to better assess risks to humans, it appears that the if lead bullets are used, odds are high that you will ingest lead particles in ground meat.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-17-14 AT 01:48PM (MST)[p]>I was totally against such a
>baleor the last few
>years, but I am slowly
>coming around to it.
>I am shooting non-lead because
>I had a pregnant wife
>and toddlers, but I think
>I am going to stick
>with it. I use
>my lead ammo at the
>range now.
>
>Here are some interesting reads, not
>sure how bias they are,
>but still interesting:
>
>A North Dakota study examined ground
>venison packages that had been
>donated by hunters to food
>pantries. It found that 59%
>of the packages had lead
>fragments.
>http://www.nps.gov/pinn/naturescience/upload/0111 Cornatzer.pdf
>
>
>
>Another NPS link says:
>A recent study that was conducted
>and will soon be published,
>examined the prevalence of lead
>bullet fragments in packaged venison.
>Thirty different white-tailed deer were
>harvested using lead rifle bullets
>and then given to 30
>different game meat processors, with
>the instructions of processing the
>animals using customary practices and
>providing the researchers packages containing
>steaks and ground meat. These
>packages were then randomly selected
>and x-rayed to see how
>many contained lead bullet fragments.
>Of the 324 randomly selected
>packages of ground venison, 34%
>contained metal fragments; some packages
>contained as many a 168
>separate pieces. Further analysis positively
>identified the metal as 93%
>lead and 7 % copper.
>This demonstrates that while the
>results are preliminary and much
>further study needs to be
>done to better assess risks
>to humans, it appears that
>the if lead bullets are
>used, odds are high that
>you will ingest lead particles
>in ground meat.

All that info is likely accurate...but a discussion of lead toxicity needs to include acceptable levels of lead, not just the fact that there is lead in the meat.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-17-14 AT 07:24PM (MST)[p]I get the argument about the lead fragments hurting birds of prey. When they eat a piece of lead, it stays in their crop for a long period so it can certainly hurt the bird.

However, I have yet to see any evidence that eating some bits of lead in hamburger is in any way toxic to humans. These fragments pass through and out of your digestive tract fairly quickly and I have heard that it would require a longer stay of that form of lead to cause a problem in humans. In other words, bullet lead fragments are not lead paint chips. Please show me the evidence to prove me wrong if there is any such evidence. Do you have such evidence Krueger?

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
Can't wait for the health warning labels to come out on a box of ammo. Ya know? Dumb idea IMO and leads to yet another rule.

"Courage is being scared to death but
saddling up anyway."
 
"However, I process my own game meat and feel pretty comfortable that I trim 99.9% of the lead out of my meat" +1.

I don't need anymore govt. rules and regs from the nanny state. I don't believe that a significant number of birds of prey, ducks, geese or humans are being poisoned by lead fragments.

Phantom Hunter
 
So does all those fishing lead weight sinker get outlawed too.
How about all those lead wheel weights that are in use today.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
What are those of us the like to use traditional muzzleloaders with large caliber roundballs in a patch supposed to shoot?
 
I don't think they consider muzzleloading lead much of a threat. They low velocities usually don't fragment lead all through the meat like a high powered centerfire rifles.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
>What are those of us the
>like to use traditional muzzleloaders
>with large caliber roundballs in
>a patch supposed to shoot?
>

Thor bullets?
 
>I don't think they consider muzzleloading
>lead much of a threat.
>They low velocities usually don't
>fragment lead all through the
>meat like a high powered
>centerfire rifles.
>
>txhunter58
>
>venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore
>I am)


50 caliber powerbelts without a doubt blowup and fragment. I've never recovered a powerbelt that retained over %60 of its original weight and I've killed alot of muleys and elk with them.
 
Doubt that Thors will work in a 1 in 70 twist .54 caliber barrel on anyones flintlock.
Thors only come in .50 caliber.

A bunch of traditional muzzleloader guys in California are about to have to hang up their guns because there will not be suitable projectiles to shoot in them. There is the non-lead ITX ball(?) but it has problems like if you forget the powder you can not screw a ball puller into it to remove it.

But I guess some just have the mentality of "sucks to be you" and don't give a crap about anyone but them selves.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-21-14 AT 09:14AM (MST)[p]The article says "pellets". Pellets aren't bullets. Do they not know the difference or are they counting on public ignorance to ban all lead??
 
Were these birds pickin grit at the trap range? Waterfowl is steel shot, pheasant dove grouse rabbit and squirrel all we can use lead for anymore. Doubt there's a ton of them wounded and being consumed by eagles and vultures. I see eagles feedin on geese all the time but it's steel shot. I wanna know more about these birds she's found.
 
>
>All that info is likely accurate...but
>a discussion of lead toxicity
>needs to include acceptable levels
>of lead, not just the
>fact that there is lead
>in the meat.


http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/csem/csem.asp?csem=7&po=8

http://www.fda.gov/Food/GuidanceReg...alsNaturalToxinsPesticides/ucm077969.htm#lead

Here is the discussion. If game meat was regulated by the FDA, then it would be illegal to eat lead shot animals. The enforceable action level is almost zero (0.1 ppm, that 1 part of lead per 10 million parts of meat) for the amount of lead in food. For the sake of arguement lets look at some realistic numbers.

You shoot a big bull elk with a 180 grain lead (Pb) core bullet. The bullet is 90% lead and 10% copper.

So you have 168 grains of lead and 18 grains of copper in your bullet before you shoot the elk. Lets say the bull elk weights 850lbs and has 450lbs of edible meat on it.

You recover the bullet under the hide of the elk and it retains 85% of its initial mass.

Therefore, 25.2 grains have fragmented into the elk somewhere and 2.7 grains of copper.

There are 7000 grains in a lb.

25.2 grains Pb = 0.0036 lbs of Pb (25.2/7000)

0.0036 lbs Pb/450lbs elk meat = 8*10^-6 = ratio of lead to meat

(8*10^-6)*(1,000,000) = 8 ppm , (to convert the Pb/meat ratio to ppm)

8 ppm is 80 TIMES MORE than the 0.1 ppm acceptable lead limit.

However, keep in mind we all know that the lead isn't equally spreadout in all THE 450lbs of meat. Its likely locally concentrated in the area you shot the bull (front shoulder or neck). Taking this into account, we'll say that the fragments are in 10% of the total meat. So 90% of the meat is safe and free of lead and the other 10% of the meat is contaminated. If you rerun the numbers considering that only 45lbs of meat are contaimnated then its 800 TIMES THE AMOUNT OF ACCEPTABLE LEAD IN YOUR ELK BURGER.
 
Now consider an elk that is shot more than once or gets a hamblaster.
Or even consider an animal that is a lot smaller than a 850lb elk, like an antelope or deer. It amplifies the lead contamination.
 
>Now consider an elk that is
>shot more than once or
>gets a hamblaster.
>Or even consider an animal that
>is a lot smaller than
>a 850lb elk, like an
>antelope or deer. It
>amplifies the lead contamination.


That is fine for you. Go ahead and shoot the bullet you want, but why should you dictate my choice as a hunter? My family has eaten game killed with lead bullets for generations and as such none have ever been diagnosed with any lead complication! Again why do you want the government to control every choice in your life?
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-22-14 AT 12:30PM (MST)[p]This discussion goes much deeper than lead contamination.
Those with a brain will know exactly what I'm talking about.

There's a segment of the population who feels a need to impose their will on others in an attempt to justify their existence.

Again, you all should know of which sector I speak!

Keep your "lead ban" as a personal choice (which is getting rare these days)

Zeke
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-22-14 AT 01:35PM (MST)[p]I completely agree that you should be able to choose to eat or not eat any amount of lead shot animals that you want. I have absolutely zero issues with people making their own personal choices on this topic. Literally if you want to take a steak out of your freezer and shoot it with a lead bullet before you put it on the grill, go for it.

I believe your arguement is flawed because you fail to recongize (or maybe you deny) that the shooting an animal with a lead bullet impacts more than just your personal choice of what you eat.

It impacts nongame species such as scavengers and birds of prey. It impacts other hunters that get their nontoxic bullet shot animals processed through the same commerial grinder for people that do not process their own meat. It impacts water quality. It impacts the nonhunter public opinion of all hunters if there are eagles and vultures on TV at animal rehab facilities dying from lead possioning. I highly doubt that you let your children make their own personal choice if they want to eat lead shot animals before you make dinner. It impacts people who do not know about possible lead contamination in game meat. It impacts society if you develop some kind of lead related health problem and need to rely on health care or some form of government assistance because of it.

Do you support people making their own personal decisions about whether to smoke meth and crack? Its really the exact same arguement, its their personal choice
 
Krueg, I'm a meat hunter by nature, I take broadside shots at standing animals generally under 100yds. I shoot thru ribs and lungs taking care not to damage front shoulder meat. I field dress gutless and rarely recover bullets due to pass thru. I process my own game for several reasons, but mainly because I know how I've cared for my game in the field and want to eat "my" game. How much lead am I gettin? And these birds had "pellets" in em, we can't hardly shoot lead shotgun shells at anything anymore, where did these "3" raptors that have caused all this, pick up the lead? It wasn't rifle ammo it was shotgun ammo which we can hardly use, except for trap ranges anymore.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Oct-22-14
>AT 01:35?PM (MST)
>
>I completely agree that you should
>be able to choose to
>eat or not eat any
>amount of lead shot animals
>that you want. I
>have absolutely zero issues with
>people making their own personal
>choices on this topic.
>Literally if you want to
>take a steak out of
>your freezer and shoot it
>with a lead bullet before
>you put it on the
>grill, go for it.
>
>I believe your arguement is flawed
>because you fail to recongize
>(or maybe you deny) that
>the shooting an animal with
>a lead bullet impacts more
>than just your personal choice
>of what you eat.
>
>It impacts nongame species such as
>scavengers and birds of prey.
> It impacts other hunters
>that get their nontoxic bullet
>shot animals processed through the
>same commerial grinder for people
>that do not process their
>own meat. It impacts
>water quality. It impacts
>the nonhunter public opinion of
>all hunters if there are
>eagles and vultures on TV
>at animal rehab facilities dying
>from lead possioning. I
>highly doubt that you let
>your children make their own
>personal choice if they want
>to eat lead shot animals
>before you make dinner.
>It impacts people who do
>not know about possible lead
>contamination in game meat.
>It impacts society if you
>develop some kind of lead
>related health problem and need
>to rely on health care
>or some form of government
>assistance because of it.
>
>Do you support people making their
>own personal decisions about whether
>to smoke meth and crack?
> Its really the exact
>same arguement, its their personal
>choice

Oh brother! Please tell me again how my argument is flawed.
You're one half-step away from a complete and total bullet ban.
Hey, those "safer" bullets hurt deer too so let's ban the all. You're kidding yourself if you think you've sided with the right camp.
Meth, crack, bullets....oh boy!
Zeke
 
Always funny to me when the left fails to persuade someone to their side the discussion takes an ugly turn. Must b that superior intellect!
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-24-14 AT 04:23PM (MST)[p]I followed your sample size math equation to the point where you used the elks weigh of 450#'s and the .0036 of lead and I think you have a flaw. Your results may still come out with lead levels higher than the Big Brother Gov's arbitrary number, but your result will actually be just a little more than half of what you're showing since the elk in your example weighs 850#s before you release your 180 gr lead filled projectile, not the 450 after gutting that you used in your math problem. To that point, the lead left in gut piles that California Condors consume is the basic reason California used to imposed it's ban on lead.

Funny thing about numbers, one can always twist and turn them to get any answer they want. Old accountants joke, "What's 2 + 2?" Answer "What do you want it to be?" My point, your animal weight is abitrary based on someone's average weight. Total lead released upon impact is based on what or who's estimate. Animals are shot at various distances by factory and reload ammo so no two shots may be exactly the same and will most likely act differently. Bottom line is lead is left in animals, but how much very's from animal to animal. (elk have more mass than deer or antelope so apples and oranges in your equation)

Aside from more and more regulations and the stock pile of lead filled bullets I already have, I have no real side in this, but I thought I'd point out your math error, sit back with my popcorn and just watch the lead keep flying.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Oct-22-14
>AT 12:30?PM (MST)
>
>This discussion goes much deeper than
>lead contamination.
>Those with a brain will know
>exactly what I'm talking about.
>
>
>There's a segment of the population
>who feels a need to
>impose their will on others
>in an attempt to justify
>their existence.
>
>Again, you all should know of
>which sector I speak!
>
>Keep your "lead ban" as a
>personal choice (which is getting
>rare these days)
>
>Zeke

Amen to that.
 
This is an excerpt from a document that the NSSF put out on the subject of lead ammo.

"To put this issue in perspective, consider this statement from the Iowa Department of Public Health (IDPH), a state agency that has tested the blood lead level of Iowa residents for over 15 years: ?IDPH maintains that if lead in venison were a serious health risk, it would likely have surfaced within extensive blood lead testing since 1992 with 500,000 youth under 6 and 25,000 adults having been screened.? Iowa has never had a case of a hunter having elevated lead levels caused by consuming harvested game."
 
And here is another excerpt from the same document:

"A study from 2008 by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) on blood lead levels of North Dakota hunters confirmed that consuming game harvested with traditional ammunition does not pose a human health risk. Calls to ban or restrict the product by groups opposed to traditional ammunition, like the Peregrine Fund, and anti-hunting groups, like the Humane Society
of the United States (HSUS), are scientifically unfounded and nothing more than a scare tactic to advance their political agenda. In looking more closely at the CDC study results, perhaps most telling is the fact that the average lead level of the hunters tested was lower than that of the average American. In other words, if you were to randomly pick someone on the street, chances are they would have a higher blood lead level than the hunters in this study."
 
"Simply a tactic to further their political agenda"
Yes sierra, that's so true and I eluded to this tactic in my brief posts but some guys just won't "get it".
Remember "meth, crack, lead bullets"! Sorry Krueger! You're on the wrong side of the fence on this one.
Zeke

PS: I byinlarge shoot Barnes TTSX all copper bullets but ITS A CHOICE I PREFERE TO MAKE.
 
Wow, very well articulated point of view backed by solid evidence! Good job guys, your arguement is steaming with credibility.
 
Did you bother clicking on the links?

You're young and obviously think you're smarter than everyone else. I won't hold that against you.

You're siding with the "anti" crowd. That I will hold you accountable for and guys like you will wonder someday why we have a total bullet ban. I know, you're just trying to help. QUIT HELPING!

Balance of message deleted......

Carry on.

Love, Zeke
 
Krueger, do you know anyone that has been diagnosed with lead poisoning due to eating wild game? How many documented cases have you seen? I assume it has to be 1,000s or 100,000s since you are so adamant about eliminating lead ammo.
 
This is anti's putting hunters against hunters. In the end all of the hunters lose.

"Go hunt for meat at Walmart."
 
Guys realize that this will be for all hunting all lead ban. When was the last time you found an ample supple of 22lr? Then consider when was the
sat time you found a pile of copper only 22lr? Or turkey hunting, or guy using traditional muzzy loaders, etc.

Thinking this is only about the 1 to 2 bullets you sent through a big game animal a year is a huge mistake!

Not to mention it is also a slippery slope, how long until target practice and training rounds go all copper, etc.

It is sickening that some here would even entertain the idea. Make sure your voice is heard by the CPW! The lady has a couple thousand signatures mostly from out of state!
 
>Guys realize that this will be
>for all hunting all lead
>ban. When was the last
>time you found an ample
>supple of 22lr? Then consider
>when was the
>sat time you found a pile
>of copper only 22lr? Or
>turkey hunting, or guy using
>traditional muzzy loaders, etc.
>
>Thinking this is only about the
>1 to 2 bullets you
>sent through a big game
>animal a year is a
>huge mistake!
>
>Not to mention it is also
>a slippery slope, how long
>until target practice and training
>rounds go all copper, etc.
>
>
>It is sickening that some here
>would even entertain the idea.
>Make sure your voice is
>heard by the CPW! The
>lady has a couple thousand
>signatures mostly from out of
>state!

Amen Elks96! (especially the "slippery slope")

Be very carful for what you wish!
Zeke
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-03-14 AT 10:07AM (MST)[p]>Guys realize that this will be
>for all hunting all lead
>ban. When was the last
>time you found an ample
>supple of 22lr? Then consider
>when was the
>sat time you found a pile
>of copper only 22lr? Or
>turkey hunting, or guy using
>traditional muzzy loaders, etc.
>
>Thinking this is only about the
>1 to 2 bullets you
>sent through a big game
>animal a year is a
>huge mistake!
>
>Not to mention it is also
>a slippery slope, how long
>until target practice and training
>rounds go all copper, etc.
>
>
>It is sickening that some here
>would even entertain the idea.
>Make sure your voice is
>heard by the CPW! The
>lady has a couple thousand
>signatures mostly from out of
>state!

She has my signature from IN STATE and a lot of other hunter's signatures too. I hope this passes and the CPW will hear my voice as to why it should pass.

WHATS REALLY SICKENING is how a small fraction of out spoken know-it-all good old boys (look at the post count) attack and try to internet bully fellow hunters that want to encourage a informed discussion on this topic. They bring nothing of value to this discussion and just make ignorant attacks by claiming this regulation is gun control and rely on taking cheap shots about being on the wrong side of the fence and counter my logic by saying that I think im smarter than everyone else.

How about people that are against this bring some REAL discusion to the table and REAL informed points of view.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Nov-03-14
>AT 10:07?AM (MST)
>
>>Guys realize that this will be
>>for all hunting all lead
>>ban. When was the last
>>time you found an ample
>>supple of 22lr? Then consider
>>when was the
>>sat time you found a pile
>>of copper only 22lr? Or
>>turkey hunting, or guy using
>>traditional muzzy loaders, etc.
>>
>>Thinking this is only about the
>>1 to 2 bullets you
>>sent through a big game
>>animal a year is a
>>huge mistake!
>>
>>Not to mention it is also
>>a slippery slope, how long
>>until target practice and training
>>rounds go all copper, etc.
>>
>>
>>It is sickening that some here
>>would even entertain the idea.
>>Make sure your voice is
>>heard by the CPW! The
>>lady has a couple thousand
>>signatures mostly from out of
>>state!
>
>She has my signature from IN
>STATE and a lot of
>other hunter's signatures too.
> I hope this passes
>and the CPW will hear
>my voice as to why
>it should pass.
>
>WHATS REALLY SICKENING is how a
>small fraction of out spoken
>know-it-all good old boys (look
>at the post count) attack
>and try to internet bully
>fellow hunters that want to
>encourage a informed discussion on
>this topic. They bring
>nothing of value to this
>discussion and just make ignorant
>attacks by claiming this regulation
>is gun control and rely
>on taking cheap shots about
>being on the wrong side
>of the fence and counter
>my logic by saying that
>I think im smarter than
>everyone else.
>
>How about people that are against
>this bring some REAL discusion
>to the table and REAL
>informed points of view.


Ok so my very first post where are you finding all copper based 22lr ammo in stock?

The next point, where is there any scientific proof that hunters are at risk from increased lead poisoning from eating game?

Where is there any proof that her precious bird ingested the lead pellets from a hunters animal?

Where is the proof that a similar ban in California has changed the death and toxicology issues for the condors?

Krueger,

You are the sort of small mind individual that represents the biggest problem with this country! You act like a little child and totally dismiss everything that is counter point to your argument! If you want to do something then all means do it, but do not force me to do it also! It is sickening to see how small minded you are and how much personal interest you have in taking away my freedom of choice!

It is and should be my choice in deciding what bullet I want!!!

What happens when we realize that copper can also cause issues for the overpopulated birds?

If you wish to live in a nanny state, please do everyone a favor and move over to California! They like your type there, the state is filled with people who would rather have the government make all your decisions!

Look at real science please, and then comeback and see what you find!
 
Well krueger,
There's no changing your mind with any amount of information or discussion. I think by "discussion" you mean agree with you. That won't happen. Obviously you didn't click on or read the links which Sierra provided.

You've made up your mind and "that's that".

I can see why you feel bullied. When you came on MM and profess to know it all and end up siding with the folks with opposite views from mine, I took offense.

Your choice is not my choice.
Sorry man, it's that simple.

Zeke
 
I AM FROM CALI, AND HAVE BEEN SHOOTING THE NON LEAD FOR 4 YEARS NOW. ITS A GREAT BULLET ON HOGS, ELK AND LARGE GAME. I SHOOT IT OUT OF STATE NOW AS WELL. THE TSX LINE IS GOOD, AS WELL AS THE TROPHY GREEN BULLETS. I HAVE TOTAL CONFIDENCE IN THEM.......YD.
 
>
> I AM FROM CALI,
>AND HAVE BEEN SHOOTING THE
>NON LEAD FOR 4 YEARS
>NOW. ITS A GREAT
>BULLET ON HOGS, ELK AND
>LARGE GAME. I SHOOT IT
>OUT OF STATE NOW AS
>WELL. THE TSX
>LINE IS GOOD, AS WELL
>AS THE TROPHY GREEN BULLETS.
> I HAVE TOTAL CONFIDENCE
>IN THEM.......YD.

I can also wipe my but with leaves and still get the job done. However I would much rather have a choice on what I wipe with! I would much rather choose what bullet I would like to shoot and hunt with...

Sorry but forced regulations to limit personal choice should always be met with some level of resistance... In this case the Science, Facts, etc. Do not justify giving up personal choice...
 
Wow!

I don't even know where to start. Most of the best counterpoints to Kreuger have been made by Sierra, zee, elks and others.

Most people would probably be shocked by how well some butchers do their jobs and probably eliminate much more lead than Kreugers study group showed, likewise we would all likely be surprised by how many are the polar opposite and care very little about your deer steak or if it is even yours! But almost every hunter I know well processes their own meat me included. When I used to have a butcher grind my burger meat because I didn't have a quality grinder, he used to ask how long it took me to process a deer because my burger meat looked so clean and well cared for he said he had never had people bring him meat that well cared for. That's not a brag just a fact. Most of my friends are the same. I doubt we've eaten much lead over the years.

The condor BS is just that. Same as the Bald Eagle case with lead shot. I did a High School science project on it and the fact was more Eagles were killed by high voltage lines, aircraft collision, auto collision , poachers and other causes than by lead ingestion in fact 16 or so birds were known to have died by lead ingestion from the start of the study (early 1970's) to the time of my project which was 1986. That's not to say those 16 birds don't count or the few condors just that the numbers a negligible in the grand scheme.

I watched the tail end of a TV show that was very pro-Condor and on it at the end they found a dead condor near the Grand Canyon Park and Rangers were positive they had their smoking gun money shot for the show and immediately x-rayed the poor dead beast only to find it had ingested a small fortune in coins thrown from the edge of the canyon into a traditional wishing well type of spot and the bird had choked on one. It seems the birds eat all things shiny and are often seen eating coins there. I'm sure they strongly discourage the practice but doubt they EVER cite anyone for littering. But shoot a lead bullet in the closed condor zone of Kali and you will pay if caught.

The real argument here is my right to choose and yours. I believe it is the Govt.'s responsibility to inform us of the health risk with REAL FACTS and then let US make the decision. PERIOD!!

I was gonna address the Meth argument with facts such as the grander scale with which it is PROVEN to be deadly and how it REALLY AFFECTS US ALL unlike the imagined threat to everyone by me killing MY ******** DEER with a lead bullet. But what's the point those with common sense see the difference and those without it never will.

Bill

People who work for a living are quickly being
overwhelmed by people who vote for a living.
 
elks96..... WHEN THE TIME COMES (AND IT WILL) THAT THE LAW HAS BEEN PAST THEY ARE GOING TO SHOVE IT UP YOUR BUTT. YOU WILL THEN START LOOKING FOR SOME NEW BULLETS TO SHOOT. IT HAPPENED HERE WHERE I LIVE, AND IT WILL HAPPEN IN ARIZONA SOON. YOUR STATE IS SOON ON THE AGENDA.......JUST THE FACTS...........YD.
 
Was the petition presented and what decision if any was made at the Colorado Parks and Wildlife Commission meetings on November 13 and 14?
 
All of this kind of reminds me of the whole queers having the right to marry thing. Just because 2 percent of the population wants it, they are trying to shove it down everyone's throat.
 
Elk, it most likely came to mind as I had been reading a lot about the situation on yahoo news, and pretty much all over mainstream media as well. And it felt pretty similar at the time to what a very small percentage of the public is trying to do/doing to the rest of society. I do agree it is two totally different things, I get that, but the bottomline is, if a very small percentage of, let's just say any group, wants a change, they - the advocates - go to the government to attempt to make everyone else abide by their wishes.

Someone said it in an earlier post, if someone wants to shoot lead free bullets, that is fine and great and all that, but don't expect everyone else to follow suit just because they think that is what is best for,, whatever reason.

As for equal marriage rights, I won't expand, as this IS a hunting forum, and I simply included it to make the comparison of something else currently going on with the aid of government, whereas they are pushing something not everyone wants, onto, every person in the country.

I will say though, it is very surprising to find someone on a hunting website that does support,,,, that other stuff.
 
I appreciate you explaining the basis of your comparison. I'm surprised that you are surprised. There are many opinions that don't get expressed here, because the topic doesn't come up. For example, there are many better internet forums for discussing marital rights than this one.

Personally I don't care about someone's sexuality, except my wife. There are many more important elements of character: Will she get up @ 4 am to hike in, can he pack an elk quarter out?

My controversial views: I prefer .54 to .50 muzzleloaders, 9mm to .40 and .45 for self defense, wear a curved-brim cap, mountain mimicry is my camo of choice, would never shoot 500 yds @ game, have pretty much stopped reloading b/c factory ammo is so good, do better w map/compass than GPS, am lefty with handguns and righty w long ones. Yup, I'm old school. Let's disagree about these burning issues on this forum.
 

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