MAJOR PROP. PASSED, SR RAC

H

HUNTINFORLIFE

Active Member
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This is the new changes that passed at last nights RAC. even though every one of the public comment, or questions were against the change they still voted for it.
If this proposal goes through the other 4 RAC meeting it will result in your kids not being able to hunt a LE hunt ever.

1. Do away with group applications for limited entry elk, deer or pronghorn permits;

2. Continue to allow hunters to apply for only one limited entry species and one once-in-a-lifetime species, but let them also apply for bonus points for other species.

The DWR posted a statistic at the RAC asking showing the top 5 reasons that hunters want to draw tag. All 5 reasons were based around a social, family and friends. Not because they wanted to kill a big buck or bull. So my issues is why would they pass a proposal that WILL NOT allow you to put in as a group.

The second proposal that pass i my mind is absolutely insane. Utah has one of the best point systems out, to give someone at lease an opportunity to draw a LE tag if they put in long enough. The proposal that passed will not. If you allow everyone to by a bonus point for every species they want, eventually that will cause everyone to have so many points, that it will be nearly impossible for our kids to ever have a chance at drawing a LE quality tag.

I am trying to put together some statistic that will show the odds of drawing a tag in 15 years if they allow people to buy a point for every species.

One thing i found a little surprising is the low number of people that were at the Southern RAC meeting last night, and i know the elections were yesterday and people were voting but there were some major changes made last night and there were maybe only 40 people there to voice there opinion. We need more people to come out to the RAC meeting if we don't it might be to late in a couple years do anything. I just hope that anyone that is going to the other 4 RAC meeting really pays attention to the Bonus Point proposal. It wont effect use that put in for tags now but it will effect youth and the opportunity they will have in 15+ years.
 
that sucks that they passed that, you should be able to put in as a group, that is how most people hunt, with friends or family, and some fathers have forgone their points to help there kid out to give them an opportunity to hunt with them. Why didn't the rack listen to the public input?
 
Sorry to hear that. It has always been my experience that the RAC process is a joke. They (the RACs) have always had their minds made up long before the meeting. The RAC meetings are nothing more than a rubber stamp. The Convention tag proposal at the central RAC proved beyond a doubt that the Utah RAC system is broke.
 
Huntinforlife,
Would you be so kind as to tell those of us who couldn't make how some of the other voting went. IE Statewide archery deer, spike only elk. Thanks
 
This is the first time I have voiced my oppion om M.M..I totally agree with utah400elk.I have seen what 1 member has done to try and remove all the goats off Plateau so his sheep and cattle buddies will quit complaining about the goats competing for feed there.I get the impression that their minds are already made before the meetings even start.R.R.
 
>bragabit


if i remember correctly the statewide archery prop. did pass it will be region choice for a period of the hunt then statewide at the end. and all the limited entry units pass to have a spike hunts on all of them. which will not help there overcrowding issue they say they have in the southern region.
 
Huntin,
Thanks for the update. Did anyone at the meeting besides the RAC think this was a good idea? What about the Southern Rifle hunt 9 or 5 days? I wouldn't worry too much. The wildlife board does not agree with the Southern RAC very often.
 
i think the rifle hunt passed to a 9 day hunt as well. I actuall like the proposal for going back to the 9 day hunt is will be set up so it is managed by units but still putting in for 5 regions. and if a unit in a region were to drop below 15/100 buck to doe it would be changed to a 5 day hunt only the 5 days will be the last five days of the rifle instead of the first 5 days of the hunt.
 
Changing the bonus point system and allowing people to buy points for species not applied for is nothing but a way to generate revenue! RAC meetings are a complete joke! Why have public meetings when their minds are made up no matter what the public input is! Social event my ass, I wanna see some big bucks! And killing spikes on the limited entry units is another freaking joke! Where the hell do they think 400" bulls come from!....
 
I am from the Southern part of the state. It is my understanding that this was the first of 5 rac meetings that will take place. Correct me if i am wrong but the other 4 meetings should happen in the next week or so. I believe it would be in our best interest to flood these additional meetings and voice our opinions loud and clear.

Traditionally just because it passed in the Southern part of the state doesn't mean that it will happen in the rest of the state. If it does pass in the ret of the state we are in trouble.
 
"Traditionally just because it passed in the Southern part of the state doesn't mean that it will happen in the rest of the state. If it does pass in the ret of the state we are in trouble."

I have to disagree. This means they have their minds made up. Buy points? Geezus. If you cannot buy points everyone is in the same boat with the points. Now, you will need a bunch of points to compete and everyone will have to pay a bunch more. What a DFI.

Anything on the table to help deer? Hunting is becoming such a joke it is pathetic. Between high money, helicopters, the sight-seers, and the rediculous cost, it just may be time to move on? They can sure make it cost more but they cannot fix the deer herd. It is getting to the point a guy can buy a hunt on private easier than apply for all the states and get nothing more than a bonus point.
 
I know I'm in the minority, but I would love the opportunity to put in for all species.

Then we need to stick the cost to the non-residents like they stick it to us.

Give us a break Idaho, Nevada, Arizona, And Wyoming.
 
IMO the cost is not the major issue, I believe the issue is the opportunity that will no longer be there. Im not talking about use that put in for hunts know that will be ok it all the youth that is coming up that cant put in for tags right know cause they are to young. If you miss one year after this proposal is implemented that person will be behind 6000 and every year after that will increase about 6000 people.
 
JRED,
You cant put in for all species. You can purchase a point for all species. So you will have to spend money on every point just to stay even with every one else. Wont help you draw a tag at all, since everyone else will be forced to do the same. It will cost us all a lot of money every year for nothing.
------------------------------------------------------
"Yeah, I'll shoot him"
 
The reason they are wanting to do away with the group apps. for limited entry hunts is because of the public outcry about "point averaging". Stupid fix.
Why not allow group applications, with Every hunter on the group app. going into the draw with the same points as the lowest point holder on the app. That would put and end real quick to Granny bringing the point average up....
------------------------------------------------------
"Yeah, I'll shoot him"
 
I agree with ICHYBODY...I know to many guys that have already drawn and use their wife or grandmas 14 points to bring them up to seven...Fix... just use the low point holder as the average..Ichy what else do you have up your sleeve? Now fix the spike hunters.
 
I have to agree with HUNTINFORLIFE.

I couldn't believe that there were so few people there. This is one of the biggest meetings for "Hunting in the State of Utah"
that there was going to be. I understand that people had to work and things like that but 40 people to this huge meeting.
That auditorium should have been packed.

The reason the RAC doesn't listen to what the people say at the meetings is because they dont think we care, because no one shows up to the meeting. I know that the meetings are a joke but avoiding them is not the answer. We have to make noise and be heard or they will do what they want and not what we want.


Sorry for the ranting.
 
JREDBUCK- I rarely post on here or get involved with any of the bickering that goes on,but how can you say that about nonresidents.I live in Nevada(born in Utah)and have been hunting over there for a long time.I bought an out of state archery tag for about $265.I had already purchased my new $65 dollar hunting license for a total of $330.Had I drawn my LE elk permit it would have cost me an additional $795.I realize these fees are a little bit lower than in Nevada and I understand your frustrations about what UTAH is doing,but come on.We are not allowed to put in for a group tag for elk here(never have been).We have not had any problems with the point thing.I can put in for every species in Nevada.It is not our fault that Utah is different.If you don't like whats going on with it,maybe you should move to Nevada and quit your whining.Sorry,just my 2 cents.
 
>I have to agree with HUNTINFORLIFE.
>
>
>I couldn't believe that there were
>so few people there. This
>is one of the biggest
>meetings for "Hunting in the
>State of Utah"
>that there was going to be.
>I understand that people had
>to work and things like
>that but 40 people to
>this huge meeting.
>That auditorium should have been packed.
>
>
>The reason the RAC doesn't listen
>to what the people say
>at the meetings is because
>they dont think we care,
>because no one shows up
>to the meeting. I know
>that the meetings are a
>joke but avoiding them is
>not the answer. We have
>to make noise and be
>heard or they will do
>what they want and not
>what we want.
>
>
>Sorry for the ranting.
>

My guess is, people would be more inclined to attend if they thought it did any good, which it doesn't and never has.....
 
>If this proposal goes through the other 4 RAC meeting it will >result in your kids not being able to hunt a LE hunt ever.

I doubt that will be the case.

I'm not sure what was presented at the RAC as it pertains to our youth but if it means that youth can't apply for limited entry units until they are 14 than I'm not sure that is such a bad thing.I've got a 12 year old and I'm not sure he needs to cut his teeth on hunting trophy animals right out of the gate.It's hard enough to draw a permit as it is.They are just trying to close some of the loops so guys and gals who have put in their time have a better chance of drawing as opposed to some guy who has 0 points jumping in with granny who has 13 points.

Mike
 
If we can put in for pts for all specis who wins?? The state they get the $. We all end up with the same amount of pts!! Who loses? The youth!!! There that much farther back at age 14.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-06-08 AT 01:25PM (MST)[p]the rac voted for a 5 day hunt and to keep statewide archery the same as it has been for another year.
 
Deerlove,

That is exactly what I was trying to say! Odds will not change, but the price to apply will be grossly over-priced. I like the money up front idea much better. If you do not draw you get your money back. If you do draw that expense is paid off.

I agree with nv. Hunting is expensive. Be careful what you wish for when wishin higher costs on someone else. When fees change in one state they always even the score across the west.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-06-08 AT 01:46PM (MST)[p]
>10r
>the rac voted for a 5
>day hunt and to keep
>statewide archery the same as
>it has been for another
>year.


was that at the north east RAC meeting
 
How will the odds not change? All the people who are now putting in for deer points will now get to put in for elk and antelope or vice versa. This will add thousands of extra people to the pool. LE hunts are already pretty much OIL tags if thousands more people are added it will be damn near impossible to draw.




Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward, whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both, for a wounded man shall say to his assailant "If I live I will kill you, If I die you are forgiven." Such is the rule of honor.
 
How will odds not change? Think about it. Now there are X amount of applicants for deer, elk, or antelope and one OIL. Make it so you can buy points, then all those applicants apply for one deer, elk, or antelope and one OIL, PLUS they all buy a point for the rest. If you buy points starting now your odds will get no worse. Don't buy them and yes, they will get worse so you are blackmailed into buying them if you ever want a chance.

This proposal does nothing except line the pockets of the DWR. That is fine if they would attempt to help the deer, but they refuse to because guys think it is all peachy if they have to sit out a few years.
 
Right ktc...you've explained to ADDICTED as best you can.

Blackmailing is a good word for it!

And I also agree, make the money...use it!

Not only that, but call a friggin' spade a spade!!! The proposal is to raise money. Fine. Don't feed us some BS about how it improves odds, etc. etc. etc. It WILL be in place, and it'll be in place as a source of revenue for the DWR. Nothing more.
 
That is true if you buy bonus points when it starts it will not hurt your odds. The people it will hurt is the youth that can not by all those points either because they can not afford to fork out 106 dollars every year, or they are not old enough to buy points yet.
 
Do these proposals have to pass at each RAC meeting or are these just meetings to wean the proposals down to a "final" group that then get sent to the Fish/Game for pass or fail?
 
I think it is all about the extra revenue this will generate. If each person applies for his one LE permit, and one OIL permits, and then buys a $10 bonus point for the other species, that could be an additional $50-$80 from everyone who just wants to keep up with the next guy and stay even on the bonus point scale. At least now, someone can start applying for one species and doesn't have to compete with the others who are focusing in on the other species. It will really hurt the odds for any youth to draw a permit, and then when you finally draw and switch over to a different species, you are competing with everyone in every pool, not just the ones who have been sticking with their species.
Kind of confusing to explain, but all in all, it looks like a money thing to me too!

The spike only on all units is totally wrong too. If they need to control the numbers, maybe throw in a hunt every 4th year or something. If we harvest all the spikes, and kill off all the big boys, how does nature work??????? Eventually elk will be in the same boat as our deer herd. There will be a few bulls trying to breed hundreds of cows. Sounds good for the few bulls, but I don't think it will work out too well for us..
My $.02..
 
From my understanding they have to pass at each RAC meeting. Then the RAC chair of each different region will take the proposals of their region and present them to the Wildlife board for approval or not.

Maybe I am miss understanding how it works but that is the way I think it does.


Jeff
 
+1
I don't fully understand the logic behind the spike only hunts, but I think if you need to manage heards, there is a better way to do it, without ruining the LE hunts for those who have waited so long to draw. Think about hundreds of spike only hunters in on LE hunts calling to all the elk on the mountain, it ruins the experience that a LE opportunity should be IMO.
 
Anyone that thinks your odds will not get worse is up in the night.
They will continue to issue roughly the same amount of tags for the animals, and down the road 5-10 years there will be thousands of more point holders. The way I see it, we will not see much change untill you draw yuor first tag. Then when you jump to your next aniaml, you will be competing with thousands of more "new" point holders for that animal with the same amount of points as you. Guess what? Your still competing for the same number of tags.

The ONLY way to increase your odds for any hunt is to add tags, or have fewer applicants. THIS DOES NEITHER!
 
On the draw deal, think of it like money, if you add more money into the pool each dollar is worth less. If you let people acquire points for multiple species each point for EVERYBODY becomes worth less. And as ktc pointed out, if you want to ever draw for another specie than the one who are currently applying for you are BLACKMAILED into buying points or be left behind. I am still against paying up front, that does the same thing in the end result, which is limit who can 'win' at the game. I say we make it simple, let people apply for ONE LE and ONE OIL tag and you can ONLY turn your tag back if you draw for military reasons, problem solved.

These proposals do NOT need to pass every RAC, they just need to be presented to at least 3 of the 5 RAC's. It is the Wildlife Board that has the say in what gets passed. They are 'supposed' to take the input from the 5 RAC's into consideration, but as they told me at last Decembers WB meeting they can do whatever they damn well want to.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
Eliminating the party applications for LE tags is a good idea. Yes, there was probably a better way to avoid the point averaging nonsense that some people have been employing. It is solely because so many people have been trying to "beat the system" that this change took place.

LE tags have become, effectively, Once in a lifetime for almost everyone. There is no reason they should be awarded to a group of people. Each tag should be drawn on its own merits, or luck, as the case may be.

Now if they were changing the party applications for general deer, or general elk, then you might have a beef. The only reason to be upset about eliminating group apps for LE tags is if you are one of the problem few who have been trying to beat the system.

Bill

BTW, the points issue is all about the extra money generated by fees. It is nothing more than a hidden fee increase. Just another way to drive hunters out of the field. I'm not any more concerned about this proposal than I would be about a general license fee increase. It is really the same thing. The odds won't change for anyone, not even the kids in the future.
 
The rac counsel did not approve the group hunt option. They still want you to be able to aply as a group. They passed it as followed: You can aply as a group but you can only turn your tag in twice and still recieve a bonus point after that no bonus point.
 
Eliminating the group application solves nothing and is unsafe. Period. Very poor solution.

Solving the tag turn in is very simple.

1- Limit the timeframe for tag turn in. Give the person getting the tag time to scout. (Say on or before the end of July)

2- Don't give a point for that year.

3- Only return money for medical and military reasons.

4- Allow a tag turn in only once in any three year period, by name not by species.

For every point lost 50 or more people catch up with them. Problem solved.

Soapbox:

The point system isn't about being fair it is about being equitible. Hard work isn't always rewarded and waiting in line doesn't always get you to the front of the line. Life isn't fair and earlier you recognize that the better off you are.

Utah's points system is the most equitible across the board. This sense of entitlement that the points brings is in a word selfish. Young and vetern hunters alike should have at least a small chance of drawing every year. I'm fine with giving statistically better odds to those that have put in longer. But the entitlement mindset of I have waited in line and deserve a tag before someone else is just selfish. But lets face it at some point we are all selfish.

Make a minor change in the tag turn in and let us all roll the dice, new and vetern alike.
 
Great post 3Toes!

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
Hunters need to learn a lesson from the rest of the world. Greed has toppled the world economies in the past year.

And this greed over "I have max points" and "I have earned it" is going to kill hunting in this state. If everyone can earn points for everything, you are guaranteeing that hunting as we know it will end with this generation. Our children will never get a chance to experince what we all enjoy and are so passionate about.

It may be more money in their pockets now but it will sign the division's death certificate down the road.

Utah has great system, that is fair and shouldn't be changed.

Inline


Take out more than you brought in!
 
"......... They are 'supposed' to take the input from the 5 RAC's into consideration, but as they told me at last Decembers WB meeting they can do whatever they damn well want to."

Sounds like every other states wildlife Commission.
 

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