This committee is most definitely a long term thing, it is actually just as permanent as the Elk and Deer committees.
Post 393 states it perfectly and is a major reason for the assembly of this committee.
Variable power scopes aren't a new or emerging technology. So why is that the topic of discussion?
Because without them, the "emerging" technology in components are useless.
I understand the reason for the committee and understand what it‘s about as I stated. I was just curious about your opinion on why success rates haven’t went through the roof with all this technology that makes it so easy for everyone to harvest these animals? Yes, I understand the committee isn’t basing any decisions success rates. Just asking your personal opinion?
And there are other hunts that could be (or are now) primitive weapon only hunts ie: CWMU, depredation, landowner, urban, youth, state parks, extended, etc! Plus, you have to remember that the ANY WEAPON hunts are just that; ANY LEGAL WEAPON!
Changes in archery equipment in my lifetime:7,774 Yards: New World Record Rifle Shot Set in Wyoming
A team of long-range shooting experts in Wyoming set what appears to be the new world record for the longest rifle shot ever completed: 7,774 yards or 4.4 miles. Scott Austin and Shepard Humphries led the team from Nomad Rifleman, a shooting range and instruction center based in Jackson Hole...www.themeateater.com
Slam
It appears that the focus to remove scopes on a muzzle loader is that the tech for that weapon has increased more than archery and rifles.
I do not agree with this at all. I can google extreme hunting videos with rifles all day long with shots on animals 3 times the distance of any muzzleloader. And most of it is done without electronics on scopes.
Just because a few have claimed that they have shot an animal at xxxx yards doesn’t mean everyone can. And that’s what’s being presented to the tech committee as a sale to remove scopes on muzzleloaders ?
So now that someone has made a 4.417 mile shot with a rifle - this surely can’t be ignored. And of course rifles haven’t evolved at all or have they ?
I hope someone one the tech committee can see the BS sale of how a muzzleloader has evolved more than a rifle or a bow.
I’m not sold on this……..
I think most guys are fine with drawing a line in the sand, they’re just not wanting to go backwards because a few guys want to go back to how they used to hunt and draw it there. I just don’t feel that’s a real good reason to redraw the line.
It's not even that it "doesn't look right", and is more they think it will give them some advantage.
You might be surprised. You said yourself the only reason you became interested was the change. There was a hell of a lot of guys who were interested prior to 2015. I really don’t even care what they do at this point jus t make the damn decision so I can be ready for 2024 season.
Negative maybe I misunderstood you but if we put it to a vote the outcome would be very interesting and might surprise people by how many might vote to go back to 2015 and prior regs. That’s all. If I misunderstood my apologies
In your opinion would the same amount of people put in for muzzy if new regs included open ignition only and #11/musket cap ignition only?
Probably not but…I know some who would because of the potential of harvesting a big buck. That’s why they keep going back scope or no scope.
OK, Draw your line in the sand and then have a great time explaining your reasons for doing so. But remember, you can't mention "higher success rates", "increased opportunity", "reduced game populations", or "there's no hunts for "primitive" weapons". Also have fun explaining the hunt schedules, area descriptions and where those tags will come from and how many there will be. And please don't allow those nonimpact restrictions to hit the General hunts. These regulations will undoubtedly affect some longtime family or friends hunts, so don't be too surprised if the hunter satisfaction rates drop.
What data did new Mexico use to come up with the theory that success rates would drop significantly??? My guess is you will not see a significant drop now that the rule is in place.
Yes the next year they used the same guns, but what about all the years after that, the success rates have not climbed from pre scope levels in a major way.
When it comes to tunnel vision - we should look at all 50 states -not just utah and its neighboring states. Most of the eastern states allow scopes on muzzleloaders and do not allow rifle hunts.
Apples to Oranges! Neighboring states have Mule Deer, Elk, Pronghorn, and cougars. We also have high mountains, steep rocky canyons and cliffs, vast sagebrush flats, dry desert badlands and washes, lots of public lands, pine and aspen forests and smaller populations. Most of the eastern states have none of that. Scopes in the west are used for distant viewing and making accurate longer range rifle shots, but in the east they are used more for picking out whitetails in the tight hardwood forests and on close private property that's being farmed and waiting for an animal to go through an opening big enough to shoot through or from a treestand.
If you want to "harken" back to the settlement of this great country nobody, and I mean literally nobody is stopping you.
Having a hunt (or two) like that is commendable, but do we want ALL muzzleloader hunts to be like that? And do we expand that philosophy into the other weapons? The law of diminishing returns tells me that at some point this neat idea could go beyond it's intent and become a liability to the hunting population, not an asset. I'd hate to see that happen!
I’m pretty sure slamdunk had his mind made up before he came on here. It’s a not easy going back to 2016… time and money spent. On my muzzle loader I couldn’t find the bullet,powder or primers right up until the hunt. Even now you still can’t find some ammo for rifles. You know what a rat race that would be if they changed the scopes.
Very well put !
But it looks so easy on instagram!!!
But what does matter is how this is promoted to the public and the extent of the change, ie; ALL muzzleloader hunts? New muzzleloader hunts? Split muzzleloader hunts? How many tags will be locked up into this program and where are these tags coming from? What's the timing of these hunts and will that affect other hunts? Is this a test or prelude to other changes in other weapon hunts? Are there exceptions to the rule per age or disability? Are they General or LE? and how do they fit into the point system and waiting period rules? Do we now cater to traditional archers who want their own hunts as well?
And nobody is stopping you from doing just that. You want to dress in your best mountain man attire and traips through the woods like Davey Crockett with your trusty flintlock rifle more power to you. Go ahead you are free to do so.
That answers MOST of my questions and you're right, I am biased. But not about the muzzleloader rules 'cause I've never hunted with a muzzleloader and have only fired one once when shooting with a friend at the range. It was fun, but too much trouble for hunting.
I'm not into the muzzleloading world (Other than a few I have rebuilt/refurbished.) and I'm not aware of any "organized" muzzleloader groups behind this change. The NMLRA doesn't even have a chapter in Utah and has no plans for any activities here, so I doubt they are involved. There may be some local clubs, but I'm not aware of them either. But the loose "groups" that form on the internet who feed off of each others posts are enough to keep any drive going.
You two are going to argue like lloyd and Harry the whole drive.Hey Niller?
That Last Sentence Is Making Me Nervous!
I'm Taking My Chances Sitting Up Front With The Driver/hawky on The RIDE!
That Or I'm Sittin In The Back Alone!
Yes, you're right about that! In fact, Romney might be worse if that is possible. It's embarrassing really! Shame on Utah!Biden, Romney, same difference...
Perfectly stated.
There are several ballistic solvers that account for aerodynamic jump.
Hey Niller?
That Last Sentence Is Making Me Nervous!
I'm Taking My Chances Sitting Up Front With The Driver/hawky on The RIDE!
That Or I'm Sittin In The Back Alone!
Are you a long range shooter/competitor ?
Haha let’s pump the brakes Litz. We are talking 500yd muzzleloaders.
No, 1100 yards is the new standard, if you can't kill at 1100 with your front stuffer you just ain't cool.
Hey this is all in good fun - right ?
Haha it is all fun.
No!! No!! No!! On this thread, we are talking about a 500yd muzzleloader shot at a live target moving through the trees or brush at an undetermined pace, angle, position, and level of alertness and with an unmarked kill zone of about 8 to 12 inches, along with other live moving targets behind and/or in front of him. BIG difference! And by the time the projectile gets to him, he could be a body-length in any direction away from where you were aiming. Additionally, by the time the smoke clears, hit or miss, you may not even know where he is for a possible second shot. And throw in weather, light conditions, your shooting position and rifle rest, And buck fever and adrenaline! It certainly is no cakewalk or even a reasonable shot sometimes! Just because you and your equipment can casually launch a "bullet" accurately from a bench on the rifle range at a still target at a known distance, that doesn't translate into the field. Shooting ain't hunting and muzzleloaders ain't one-shot rifles.
Thank you Ballistic for clearing up long range myths. I believe pretty much every word of what you have said concerning powders, bullet drop, calling bull on a lot of stuff etc. Nothing I like more than someone credibly calling bull on someone else’s shooting. I am no expert, I just pretend to be on MM forums.
I’ve played the steel game where rangefinders weren’t allowed. Target sizes were given so you could (mil) or (moa) range with decent results. I say decent because an 18” plate at an angle will look like 15” for example.
I was just thinking it might level the the playing field a bit for rifle hunters if the scope magnification restriction was passed for muzzles.
Nope--If everyone else is rockin 12X+ power scope and LR front stuffers so am I! Why in the he!! would I want to be at a disadvantage compared to everyone else when it's basically an any weapon front stuffer hunt? This ain't about beaver skin hats and buckskin pants dude. I want the rules to change for all of us because I want the muzzleloader hunt to be different from the any legal weapons hunt--that is it buddy! It's not that different as it stands and you know it as well as I no matter how much you lie to yourself.
No. Only people complaining that someone else got a tag and they didn't.
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