My thoughts regarding the Expo Tag decision

M73-

How has the fishing been with your boys?

If there was a silver bullet that would fix this problem, I would have fired it a long time ago. Unfortunately, the incestuous relationships between the DWR and these two conservation groups, which led to this lack of accountability and transparency in the first place, also becomes an obstable to addressing the problem. But I remain hopeful that we will eventually shine a light on this problem and fix it once and for all. In the meantime, I will continue to ask questions, dig into the documents, post facts, and talk about this problem to anyone who will listen.

-Hawkeye-
 
To camper_A1-- Better check the facts concerning what Trammer posted about the sheep hunt--- I did, and its factually untrue according to the sources I contacted personally. Dangerous thing to be accusing people of things, especially when you might be doing it because you are looking for some kind of revenge. Stating some things as factual on a public forum could get you into a legal nightmare. Opinions of what you understand are one thing-- stating things as absolutely factual is another.
Also, I have seen the presentation of the reports on the audits of convention monies that were raised and according to the state of Utah, all monies have been applied properly as required by contract. The requirements to spend the % of monies raised from Expo and Conservation Org functions on approved Wildlife projects has been audited and confirmed as being done as required and monies have been spent or are earmarked for future approved projects within a 2 year period as required. This includes ALL conservation orgs. (RMEF,UBA, SFW, MDF, FNAWS, etc) that have raffled or auctioned off permits in their various banquets etc.
As I see it-- the only question is whether they should be able to keep the 10% or the $3.50 raffle fee. They are allowed to use that money as they please.
So, if you want that changed, you certainly have that right to pursue that change. Using the appropriate venues would be a good start-- not here on the net.
 
Hawkeye, I agree with you. I'm glad to see a fellow sportsman who cares about accountability, especially concerning a non-profit organization that is operating on public resources.

The good news is that there are some ratards (yep, spelled it the way they pronounce it) on here from the consume everything generation that will soon move on to face all those "big-bodied two points" that they shot two or three of each year.

Count me in as someone who is getting tired of all the corrupt B.S., lies and story telling.
 
Nebo12000-

I agree. It is always better to stick to the facts. Folks throw around some crazy allegations from time to time but I try to stick to the facts as shown by the DWR's own documents.

We have to be careful when we refer to "audits" that have been performed by the DWR because it can be confusing and misleading. I agree that the DWR conducts annual audits of the monies generated from the 330+ Conservation Tags. Those audits are available on the DWR's website and show exactly how the 90% earmarked for conservation projects was spent donated to the DWR and/or spent on approved projects.

Shouldn't the same thing be done with Expo Tags? What audits have been performed to date? For the first 6 years, no audits were performed on the roughly $5.5 million dollars raised in application fees. The DWR likes to tell people they performed "wildlife exposition audits" in those early years but the truth is that those "audits" did not even attempt to look at how the groups were spending the money. Hence, the "multiple audits" referenced by DeLoss. Starting in 2013, the groups agreed to account for 30% of the money raised from those fees. As a result, during the 9 years that SFW and MDF have hosted the Expo (2007-2015), SFW and MDF have accounted for slightly less than $1,150,000 of the $8.6 million generated from these tags. That means we know how roughly 13% of the money was spent and the remaining 87% of the $8.6 million remains unaccounted for.

Why can't the DWR and the conservation groups simply agree to treat the Expo tag revenues the same as the Conservation Permit revenues with a 90/10 split and a detailed annual accounting? There is no reason to pretend that this would result in the Expo going bankrupt or the groups being dismantled. RMEF's proposal dispelled those myths. Just agree to do the right thing.

-Hawkeye-
 
Robiland, your hypothetical story would actually work great.

When you're asked to show an accounting of his money, just say, "Look at that nice Dodge truck I bought for you." When he asks where the rest of it went, just say, "Hey, I paid your house payment so don't worry about it."

He shouldn't care any more than that anyway, right?

Grizzly
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-01-16 AT 05:42PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Feb-01-16 AT 05:37?PM (MST)

Hawkeye and Robi,
So what does the law say? What was the original binding agreement for the dollars generated by the 200 Expo Tags???? Doing the right thing is subjective.....yes? What does the original contract read?

Oh and Hawkeye, I was talking about Robi's specific silver bullet. I've heard the hammer drop on your empty cylinder multiple times, I'm asking about his.
 
Nebo12000,

I didn't acuse anybody of anything I just said if it was true it should raise an eyebrow. I'm glad you checked it out and it wasn't. Birdman also pm'd me and gave me more of the facts.
 
I'm having fun with all the fairy tales, courtroom drama, stand-up comedy and Don Rickles-style insulting surrounding the legal (or illegal) mandating of the use of 30% of the $5.00 Expo tag application fees, but wasn't this thread supposed to be about the suspicious awarding of the 2017-2021 Expo Permit Program to SFW/MDF/UFNAWS? If that is the case, could we get back to the issue? If the Expo Permit Program was illegally awarded, all these fun posts are mote. If it was legally awarded, then we can start a new thread.

Was it done legally or not? Apparently the awarding was done only after a surprise RFP requirement was announced contrary to the current law and after a deadline date was reset without prior notice to the public or potential applicants and was reset after proposals were submitted even though DWR knew (and claimed after the fact) the RFP wasn't ready for the first deadline, and after the 2 submitters knew of other submissions contrary to stated policy.
 
Well Lee then fire the bullet and let's move forward. Or have Hawkeye or Robi and anyone do it. Pull the trigger and let's fix our herds......right?
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-02-16 AT 02:16AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Feb-02-16 AT 02:09?AM (MST)

>Well Lee then fire the bullet
>and let's move forward. Or
>have Hawkeye or Robi and
>anyone do it. Pull the
>trigger and let's fix our
>herds......right?

Why the rush? Are you getting nervous? We've waited 9 years for the Expo Partners to do what they said they would do when this Expo Permit Program started and we can wait a little longer. Besides, at this point, the ones who should be pulling the trigger on this issue are the DWR, SFW, MDF and UFNAWS themselves. It shouldn't require someone from outside the clique pointing a gun at them with a silver bullet in it to get them to do what they say they want to do with the money. And you'd think they would be more than happy to show us, the public who own the wildlife and those 200 permits, with a financial audit, how great they are at getting the job done. Maybe you should direct your concerns at them instead of at us.
 
I'm not nervous at all. Just would rather resolve the issue if there really is one (not a precieve one) and move forward. These efforts distract from what I care about which is Utahs wildlife. You all are fighting to prove a point on difference of opinion. I would rather our efforts be focused on fixing our deer herds, growth more elk, sheep, goats, pheasants.
 
Resolve the issue "if there really is one"??

Seriously??






"The State of Utah has not given BGF anything.
They have invested in BGF to protect their
interests."
Birdman 4/15/15
 
Wiley

ABSOLUTLY! Everybody claims to have the info thats gonna bury the SFW, how many times have we heard that Gordy. "Just you wait it's coming". Over and over and over.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-02-16 AT 07:57AM (MST)[p]73,

Patience. Just because some says soemthing that they know, doesnt mean they are going to throw that out there on the internet. Sometimes things take time. Your silver bullet you are talking about, is that referring to what I said to your dad, DD responding to his plea to me to ask SFW myself about my concerns? And I respneded that I know people that have been involved? Is that the silver bullet? Look at what Jason (Hawkeye) is doing. Just be patient. There may be something if you hold onto your britches.

Landon
 
Landon,

There you go again...."There may be something". Its coming, just be patient. To me that means if we dig deep enough or throw enough shiiit on the wall we are hoping that we turn up something or something sticks. Carry on gents. Until then I'll support that group that is doing good for our wildlife. This is nothing more than trying to validate a lynch mob. It does nothing to help our wildlife in the big picture of things.
 
And keeping 70% of the money from the tags is helping wildlife? Why not 90%, that would be awesome. Why not 100%? That would be even better.
We still have not seen what or where that 8.6 million dollars has gone or done. Thats 8.6 MILLION. Just think of all the good for the WILDLIFE that would do. You could have tons more youth pheasant hunts. You could host AND pat yourself on the back by doing several Fishlake perch contests. Then you could say, "LOOK WHAT SFW DID for Fishlake."

We have heard it before and we will continue to hear it:

LOOK at our deer herds, we rammed option 2 down the pipe, and now look, the best deer hunting in decades. Had nothing to do with mother nature.

Look at our elk, best elk hunting in the west.

Look, we brought back pheasant hunting back to Utah.

Look at Fishlake, best fishing in the west.

73 or DD, does your shoulder ever get soar from patting it so much?

Carry on!!!
 
M73 Posted: "So what does the law say? What was the original binding agreement for the dollars generated by the 200 Expo Tags???? Doing the right thing is subjective.....yes? What does the original contract read?"

Cody, as an valiant SFW defender you should know the answers to your own questions. But since you are asking what the laws say and whether any laws have been broken, please consider the following:

1. The Expo Tag Rule that was adopted in 2005 clearly states that the 200 Expo tags were created "for purposes of generating revenue to fund wildlife conservation activities in Utah and attracting and supporting a regional or national wildlife exposition in Utah." (R657-55-1). Thus, the very statute/rule that created these tags states that the revenues will be used to "fund wildlife conservation activities." This same statutory purpose was also presented to the Wildlife Board and the public at the time the tags were created. Have the groups and the DWR followed through on the committement? Have SFW and MDF used the $8.6 million in application fees to fund actual conservation activities? If so, then why all of the belly-aching when the public has asked the groups to show us what they have done with our money. Therefore, it is not clear whether the groups are complying with R657-55-1.

2. The Expo Tags were created at a 3/31/2005 Wildlife Board Meeting, wherein the Board adopted the original version of the Expo Tag Rule (R657-55). That's right. That is how the DWR and the Widlife Board do business and interact with the public - through the rule making process. Keep that in mind because it will relate to Point #4 below. If you read the minutes from that meeting, the public expressed significant concern about what the groups were going to do with the money raised from the 200 public tags. See 3/31/2005 Minutes at 21-24 (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BwhBsR2dj01GYzBUYlVvS3RCTXM). In response to those concerns, the Wildlife Board passed a motion specifically directing the DWR that "in their contract negotiations with the representing organizations that annual audits be accomplished in a similar way that is done for conservation tags." See 3/31/2005 Minutes at 24. However, neither the DWR nor the groups made any effort to ensure that an annual auditing requirement similar what exists for conservation permits was included in the 5-year contracts. Therefore, the DWR and the groups have ignored that binding directive of the Wildlife Board.

3. As you probably know, the State of Utah owns the widlife in trust for the benefit of the people. See Utah Code Ann. ? 23-13-3 (?All wildlife existing within this state, not held by private ownership and legally acquired, is the property of the state.?). Under the public trust doctrine, the states retain legal ownership of the wildlife but have fiduciary obligations to the people. Therefore, sportsmen have a right to ask how this resource is being managed and the fact that the DWR transferred 200 permits to a couple of groups "for purposes of generating revenue to fund wildlife conservation activities in Utah," does not somehow cut off their duties. Moreover, the State of Utah as trustee should be carefully "tending the store" and holding all of private groups who are dealing with public assets 100% accountable.

4. The DWR adopted a process for awarding the 5-year Excpo tag contracts in R657-55. The DWR relied on and followed that process in awarding the two prior 5-year contracts. However, the DWR violated its own rule by moving to a formal RFP process in late 2015, without amending its rule to authorize that change. See Post #173 for a more detailed analysis of this point.

There are four separate laws and/or legal principles that I believe are being violated or ignored. To be fair to SFW and MDF, I place a significant amount of the blame on the DWR for failing to demand accountability and transparency from the beginning. The public should not be fighting the DWR on these issues. Rather, the DWR should be fighting for the public on these points. The DWR should not be handing out public assets worth millions of dollars and the trusting in good faith that their buddies are subjectively "doing the right thing," as you say. That is not how state agencies should operate. See Post #256 for examples of some of the relationships in question.

Finally, with respect to your repeated questions about why someone does not simply fire the "mythical silver bullet," as I stated above silver bullets only exist in werewolf movies. In contrast, this is a real world problem that involves millions of dollars, personal relationships and politics. If I could wave a magic wand and fix this problem, I would have done it long ago. Unfortunately, we as sportsmen are relying on the same groups and state agencies who created and are benefitting from this problem to fix the problem. Hence, my statement that the system is broke. I, however, remain hopeful that at some point this issue will get enough attention from the media, sportsmen, politicians and others, that the groups and the DWR will be pressured to do the right thing.

I hope that answers some of your questions.

-Hawkeye-
 
Rob said it best "And keeping 70% of the money from the tags is helping wildlife? Why not 90%, that would be awesome. Why not 100%? That would be even better.
We still have not seen what or where that 8.6 million dollars has gone or done. Thats 8.6 MILLION. Just think of all the good for the WILDLIFE that would do?"
Just think of the $ lost in this fiasco!
 
This is getting easy, now that we can just cut and paste what we've already said, 317 times.

Echo.

"Let's just say it is an uphill battle given the relationships SFW has developed within the DWR, the Wildlife Board, the legislature, etc."

It he really believes that, why isn't the kid at the back of the bus the one sending the tip to the Federal Office in San Francisco? If NO ONE in the entire State of Utah, not a single one, from either political party, why won't he help heartshot, why isn't he encouraging heartshot to call in the tip and offering to help the Feds investigate?

There he goes again, "inferring" DWR and the conservation groups have something to hide. INFERRING. How clever. If you can't find something, infer there is something, so people thing there is.

Here's what the kid in the hall way is doing right now folks. He's trying keep you at a fever pitch, screaming, hollering, inferring, sending-mails, making phone calls, demands and now STILL WANTS ANOTHER audit, how many has that been. One done, how many more asked for?

Why?

Does he think the audit will find anything he hasn't already seen, read or heard. No.

He wants this to become as divisive, nasty, and a constant pain the a44 for the DWR, the Legislature, the DOJ, the Governor so they will ALL decide say, "to hell with the 200 tags" , they're not worth hearing about, non-stop, year in and year out.

That's the goal.

If he can't get them on a legality, he'll "get them" by causing the decision makers endless misery until such time that they just want it to "go away", regardless of the effectiveness of the conservations/economic effort and effect.

So, if we're going to "wait and see". That's what he's waiting to see happen. That's the "new strategy", since the last one's he's tried haven't worked. There have been numerous trys.

Metaphorically, the girls have not started fighting amongst themselves yet, so the whispering in the ears continues.

Watch for the chuckle!

That my opinion, might be entirely my imagination. I'm a pretty dumb old country boy, after all.

DC

Now he'll echo back that I can't name a single audit on the Expo tags. And around and around the mulberry bush we go, "building" frustration and hostility. Why....so, "that the groups and the DWR will be pressured to do the right thing." The right thing in the kid in the back of the bus' black and white version of "right and wrong".

DC
 
DeLoss, you have lost me and most other folks with your metaphorical fair tales. Your son (M73) asked a question: "So what does the law say?" I answered the question with specific references and you are, yet again, quoting nursery rhymes. You are right about one thing, we are all still waiting for you to produce a copy of one of "the many audits" that you referenced above. But we both know that will never happen.

-Hawkeye-
 
Hawkeye, thanks for all the indisputable, factual information. None of the law or history you provide can be denied.

Instead, there is an increasingly small group of people that constantly try and divert the focus to someplace else.

Grizzly
 
>This is getting easy, now that
>we can just cut and
>paste what we've already said,
>317 times.
>
>Echo.
>
>"Let's just say it is an
>uphill battle given the relationships
>SFW has developed within the
>DWR, the Wildlife Board, the
>legislature, etc."
>
>It he really believes that, why
>isn't the kid at the
>back of the bus the
>one sending the tip to
>the Federal Office in San
>Francisco? If NO ONE in
>the entire State of Utah,
>not a single one, from
>either political party, why won't
>he help heartshot, why isn't
>he encouraging heartshot to call
>in the tip and offering
>to help the Feds investigate?
>
>
>There he goes again, "inferring" DWR
>and the conservation groups have
>something to hide. INFERRING. How
>clever. If you can't find
>something, infer there is something,
>so people thing there is.
>
>
>Here's what the kid in the
>hall way is doing right
>now folks. He's trying keep
>you at a fever pitch,
>screaming, hollering, inferring, sending-mails, making
>phone calls, demands and now
>STILL WANTS ANOTHER audit, how
>many has that been. One
>done, how many more asked
>for?
>
>Why?
>
>Does he think the audit will
>find anything he hasn't already
>seen, read or heard. No.
>
>
>He wants this to become as
>divisive, nasty, and a constant
>pain the a44 for the
>DWR, the Legislature, the DOJ,
>the Governor so they will
>ALL decide say, "to hell
>with the 200 tags" ,
>they're not worth hearing about,
>non-stop, year in and year
>out.
>
>That's the goal.
>
>If he can't get them on
>a legality, he'll "get them"
>by causing the decision makers
>endless misery until such time
>that they just want it
>to "go away", regardless of
>the effectiveness of the conservations/economic
>effort and effect.
>
>So, if we're going to "wait
>and see". That's what he's
>waiting to see happen. That's
>the "new strategy", since the
>last one's he's tried haven't
>worked. There have been numerous
>trys.
>
>Metaphorically, the girls have not started
>fighting amongst themselves yet, so
>the whispering in the ears
>continues.
>
>Watch for the chuckle!
>
>That my opinion, might be entirely
>my imagination. I'm a pretty
>dumb old country boy, after
>all.
>
>DC
>
>Now he'll echo back that I
>can't name a single audit
>on the Expo tags.
>And around and around the
>mulberry bush we go, "building"
>frustration and hostility. Why....so,
>"that the groups and the
>DWR will be pressured to
>do the right thing."
>The right thing in the
>kid in the back of
>the bus' black and white
>version of "right and wrong".
>
>
>DC

And the bullies at the front of the bus who want to control the number and seating of the passengers, the conversations they engage in, the price of tickets, the temperature of the bus, and even the destination according to their version of "right and wrong", all the while pocketing some of the fares, continue to ridicule anyone who dares to disagree with them and says so.
 
I'm not sure what is good for wildlife has mattered much since about 98.

Maybe in your opinion or some rationalization may convince you that this is true.

I believe that soon, even you and DC will not be able to look past the warts on the face of DC's deer plan champion.

Basically the adage of every man having a price, or in what I believe are two honorable men, regardless of differences of opinion, level of corruption they can endure.

i hope I'm here when that day comes.




"The State of Utah has not given BGF anything.
They have invested in BGF to protect their
interests."
Birdman 4/15/15
 
Hawkeye,
So basically you're saying laws were broken but there is nothing that can be done about it? You're saying the DWR, which is a government agency is to blame? Correct?

Because I believe what Robi, Wiley, shotgun1, Deerlove, Topgun, Zim, and the rest of the lynch mob believe that you are going after the SFW? You say you're not but you constantly ask SFW to open their books. Sounds to me you should be asking the DWR for the info and the DWR seems to be fine with what the SFW is doing. The fight should be with the governmet agency and policy not the conservation organization. But we both know that most of your vocal support comes from SFW haters not DWR opposition. You have given or allowed others that champion you to give the impression that SFW has broken laws or been corrupt in this situation. If that is not the case it should not be represented as such.

I'll end by saying if you believe that the DWR is the one truly being negligent in this situation. Then why on earth would you trust them to "do the right thing" with all the money you and RMEF wanted to give them directly and total control of? That seems strange to me.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-02-16 AT 01:34PM (MST)[p]These SFW/MDF/DWR debates have been doozies over the years, haven't they? I'd wonder if founder can sort all the conversations we've ever had based on the number of responses. My guess is the longest and most emotional have been of this variety.

Something has happened, however. Most of those who used to hold the SFW flag high and champion the cause have disappeared. There have been many smart men who couldn't argue with logic and facts and gracefully bowed out. They no longer chime in. Heck, we used to get Peay Day himself in here, but he couldn't take the heat.

Now all that's left fighting for SFW is DeLoss telling us stories about buses and cats.

I know I'm preaching to the choir here, and there are probably only about 6 guys reading this, so indulge me for a moment.

The SFW MO has always, always been the same. Ask a valid question and you'll get a pretty slideshow and a 3 hour tour as your answer.

Q: Where did the money go?
A: Let me show you what we're doing with deer habitat in Beaver.

Q: How much of the money that you earned from the sale of expo tickets went to conservation?
A: We just released 5000 pheasants on public land.

Q: Why are you only willing to commit 30% of expo tag revenues to conservation?
A: Look at this sweet graph. We leverage our money by a 20-1 ratio.

Same song and dance. Every time.

Those of us fighting to shine some light on this issue and bring it out for everybody to see don't doubt that SFW does good things. They certainly have and they certainly do. But we all know that we could and should be doing better. We are doing our kids and ourselves a huge disservice if we *don't* ask these questions.

This latest round of bureaucratic nepotistic bull crap is just another chapter in this ridiculous saga. The incompetent DWR, with pressure from SFW, has screwed us out of a better wildlife future in Utah, and the most ridiculous part is that there are still people defending them. This isn't chump change - these mistakes are costing us millions.

Many of us are already involved, but if you are not, please take the time to write your state representatives and let them know how you feel. We can no longer have the fox watching the hen house. This thing has some momentum. Help us push it through.

Vi Et Armis Invictus Maneo
 
M73 posted: "So basically you're saying laws were broken but there is nothing that can be done about it? You're saying the DWR, which is a government agency is to blame? Correct?"

Nope. That is not what I said. Yes, I did state that laws have been violated or ignored, and I stand by that statement. No, I did not say there is nothing that can be done about. What I said is that fixing this problem is an uphill battle given the cronyism and close relationships between the groups and the DWR. No, I did not say the DWR is solely to blame. The DWR and the conservation groups are both to blame. Frankly, this problem could have and should have been resolved long ago if either the DWR or the groups had the backbone to stand up and do the right thing.

M73 posted: "Because I believe what Robi, Wiley, shotgun1, Deerlove, Topgun, Zim, and the rest of the lynch mob believe that you are going after the SFW?"

I don't really care what you or anyone else thinks or believes. Let me state this one more time: "I want to see accountability and transparency for the monies generated from our 200 public Expo Tags." You and your dad can spin that any way you want but is really is quite simple if you have any reading comprehension skills. Spin away!

-Hawkeye-
 
All I can see the last few days on this thread is a Father and Son making asses of themselves. It's either that or that 2lumpy is exactly what he's stated he is on several posts and that is that he's just a dumb old country boy! How many times does Hawkeye have to say that all we want to see is an audit of the money taken in from those 200 tags that amounts to well over $8 million so we know it's going back on the ground the way the Statute intended. IF there wasn't something shady going on, the organization could do that in a heartbeat and this would all be over. When there are lines on tax forms showing a guy (the DON) is getting half a million bucks a year for "consulting fees" it's absolutely laughable. What is the Don consulting on? Maybe toss a couple of those hen pheasants into that bush and a couple over here in this one, LOL! Then you have his BGF organization bilking all the Utah taxpayers out of hundreds of thousands of dollars for supposed wolf and sage grouse work that was paid ahead of time contrary to the way it should have been done and then nothing solid to show where that money went either. The DON is probably taking in over a million dollars a year of money taken from the public trust and here two guys just keep defending him over and over to the point where they are just as bad as he is!
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-02-16 AT 03:00PM (MST)[p]Clearly the boy is using a well established technique, in my opinion:

In my opinion, "If you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it, and you will even come to believe it yourself."

"The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly and with unflagging attention. It must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over. Here, as so often in this world, persistence is the first and most important requirement for success.

Actually from "War Propaganda", in volume 1, chapter 6 of Mein Kampf (1925), by Adolf Hitler

If you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it, and you will even come to believe it yourself.

If you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it, and you will even come to believe it yourself.

If you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it, and you will even come to believe it yourself.

If you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it, and you will even come to believe it yourself.


Also, folks often use the word "probably" to avoid being called a lier, yet make the accusation real in the minds of the reader.

The boy and his supporters could "probably" flap their arms and fly to the moon! "Could probably" is even more compelling. You can say anybody does anything, if you throw in the word "probably "ahead of your ridiculous accusation.

It could be that the really bright SFW members, that used to participate on the forum have accepted your version of the truth, but it's more likely they are bright enough to know that anything they say, will be a waste of breath, so they are bright enough to save their breath. Clearly, as you say, I am not very bright. Dang proud of it too.

DC
 
Hey TOPGUN, I don't think name calling was your intention, but singling out two people like that is not like you, your better then that!

Everyone here in this discussion are very passionate about their views including myself! And with out everyone's views we wouldn't be having this discussion. We can all learn from each other. And I'm sure that's what your real intentions were.

Joe

"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long you
think their right" - 2001
"I can't argue with honesty" - 2005
-Joe E Sikora
 
>Hey TOPGUN, I don't think name
>calling was your intention, but
>singling out two people like
>that is not like you,
>your better then that!
>
>Everyone here in this discussion are
>very passionate about their views
>including myself! And with out
>everyone's views we wouldn't be
>having this discussion. We can
>all learn from each other.
>And I'm sure that's what
>your real intentions were.
>
>Joe
>
>"Sometimes you do things wrong for
>so long you
>think their right" - 2001
>"I can't argue with honesty" -
>2005
>-Joe E Sikora

Joe---I'll call a spade a spade every time and in this case there are two of them! It's your prerogative if you want to keep up your niceties with these two people. However, the ridiculous comments the two of them keep coming up with is an affront to all of us that wish to see justice prevail after the debacle awarding SFW/MDF the new contract. All we keep getting back from both of them is pure, unadulterated BS and even you should be getting tired of it! How anyone can keep defending this taking of the public trust like the two of them are is beyond me!
 
Hi again TOPGUN, I'm not agreeing with either side as I've said before, but I have actually talked to some of these guys including Hawkeye. Which I would like to thank these gentlemen for taking time out of their busy day to chat with me.
Did I agree with everything one side or the other side said to me, absolutely not! They both have vaild points and I would love to finally get to the bottom of this argument.

I do feel that being disrespectful to someone over they own personal views is being a little over the top! Again I think your emotions are getting the better of you.

As a side note, my niceties on here have not only been to 2lumpy and Muley_73. If you look back at my posts on here I was upset with Cody in one of my posts. He didn't take it seriously.

I too rant and rave on here also but usually I finish by saying thanks to everyone for letting me express my opinions. That's why I use my real name on these sites. I feel for myself any way, it keeps me in check from saying something I might just be saying in the heat of the moment. So if that's my niceties I'll take it.

Always thanks for your time

Joe
P.S. Don't take my kindness for weakness

"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long you
think their right" - 2001
"I can't argue with honesty" - 2005
-Joe E Sikora
 
Joe---First of all I have my name and where I live right in my profile, so I'm not trying to hide from anyone! Sorry, but we're not just talking about personal opinions here when we discuss something like this. We're talking about indisputable facts. We're talking about right from wrong and in this case millions of dollars that have been taken from the public trust in violation of what was agreed to when the 200 tags was agreed to and the initial contract signed 10 years ago. Hawkeye has laid out things such that anyone with a first grade education can see the glaring wrongs that have continued from the initial Expo right up through the last one in 2015. He has gotten nothing back but BS from both of these guys and it's been that way for years in that they will not attempt to straighten things out, but rather continue to allow their organization to be run by those who are taking advantage of the system and everyone else, including themselves. DC comes on and keeps talking about previous audits when he knows dang well that there has never been an actual audit that SFW or DWR can show regarding the $5 application fees for those 200 tags. That now amounts to 8.6 million dollars that hasn't been accounted for. Did you look at the posted tax returns showing close to $500K a year going out for consulting fees to one person alone? What in the world are we to think when we see that kind of money going out when that money was part of what was made from those Expo tags? Yea, I'm worked up about this even though I live in MI. Maybe it's because I spent my entire career in LE doing consumer protection work for the public and I can smell a rat all the way from Utah and would like to see it squashed once and for all!
 
The Wounded Warrior organization was in the news this week.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/28/u...lavishly-on-itself-ex-employees-say.html?_r=0

I bet the guy that runs the Wounded Warriors organization thought that no one would be bold enough to question them on how they manage their finances. He probably assumed that people turn off their common sense when the words ?wounded warrior? are mentioned in the marketing information. The end justifies the means kind of thing. Kind of like SFW does when they flip the term ?conservation? around. I think that if Wounded Warriors can be called out in the media about their spending and the percentage of money actually put toward the cause, SFW should be prepared for the same. The public is a whole lot smarter than they think.

I find the business strategy for both of these non-profits interesting. Although Wounded Warriors and SFW both rely on charitable intentions, people would contribute to these worthy causes anyway. You could change the principals of either group and as long as there were tax advantages and adequate communication they would still collect money. From a business strategy standpoint, neither organization is special. Other than the fact that both groups were the first in their fields to start heavy fundraising and have more name recognition, there isn't anything that they do that other groups couldn't.

In the case of SFW, they get to play both sides. SFW is a tag brokering organization that deals in public wildlife assets. They convince government agencies that they bring marketing expertise and fund raising power, which is kind of laughable given the natural scarcity of Western wildlife tags. Once they lock-in a state contract for tags they stack the deck on the Wildlife Board (essentially limiting input from average Joes). Stacking the deck ensures their interests aren't impacted and tag availability remains limited. In many cases, successful conservation actually hurts their business model because it could drive up supply and drive down demand. Even worse, successful conservation might increase antlerless populations which would be a problem for their primary constituents, private landowners. SFW equates fund raising with success instead of focusing on meaningful metrics like wildlife population estimates.

The key to SFW is greed, politics and apathy. Greed allows them to divert tags to guys who buy their way in front of patient average Joes, often with tax advantages. Apathy is what keeps average Joe hunters from understanding the dire long term impacts of purchasing expo tags. Politics is what provides the market hurdle that provides a barrier to entry for competitors. All of these strengths are environmental forces and neither make SFW particularly valuable. At the end of the day, SFW is like a career government employee with a limited skill set and a bloated paycheck. Even though everybody knows him, he just isn't worth it anymore. And he has all of these annoying friends that stop by to ask you for money and favors. He probably even walks up next to you and makes conversation at the urinal, and turns his head while he does it :)

So fight the good fight Hawkeye. SFW isn't successful because they are good, they are successful because they know how to pull the strings of Utah politics. They should be collecting single digit percentages on all income streams derived from the expo (booths/parking/tickets?whatever) and the rest should be going toward actual conservation of wildlife resources. They are providing mailroom value and collecting boardroom salaries.

Ryan
 
TOPGUN, IF YOU HAVE READ SOME OF MY POSTS ON THIS SUBJECT YOU WILL SEE THAT I AGREE WITH A LARGE PART OF WHAT YOUR SAYING. I HAVE THANKED HAWKEYE FOR POSTING THAT DOCUMENTATION ON HERE AS WELL AS WHEN I SPOKE WITH HIM. THATS WHY IM SAYING YOUR EMOTIONS ARE GETTING THE BEST OF YOU!

THE PROBLEM FOR ME IS YOUR TAKING PERSONALLY SHOTS AT PEOPLE FOR THEIR OPINIONS! HAVE YOU FORGOT THATS WHAT MAKES UP AMERICA?

ITS LIKE WRESTLING IN THE MUD WITH A PIG. SOONER OR LATER YOU LEARN THE PIG LIKES IT!

I TOO AND LOOKING FORWARD TO SEE WHAT COMES OF ALL THIS!

THANKS FOR TIME
JOE



"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long you
think their right" - 2001
"I can't argue with honesty" - 2005
-Joe E Sikora
 
TOPGUN, IT JUST ACURED TO ME WHY YOU BROUGHT THE PROFILE THING UP TO ME! SOMETIMES I MISS THINGS TOO!

I WAS NOT REFERRING TO YOU OR ANYONE ELSE. IM JUST TELLING YOU WHAT I DO AND WHY I DO IT.

WITH ALL DO RESPECT , NOT EVERYTHING IS ABOUT YOU!

THANKS JOE

"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long you
think their right" - 2001
"I can't argue with honesty" - 2005
-Joe E Sikora
 
>TOPGUN, IF YOU HAVE READ SOME
>OF MY POSTS ON THIS
>SUBJECT YOU WILL SEE THAT
>I AGREE WITH A LARGE
>PART OF WHAT YOUR SAYING.
>I HAVE THANKED HAWKEYE FOR
>POSTING THAT DOCUMENTATION ON HERE
>AS WELL AS WHEN I
>SPOKE WITH HIM. THATS WHY
>IM SAYING YOUR EMOTIONS ARE
>GETTING THE BEST OF YOU!
>
>
>THE PROBLEM FOR ME IS YOUR
>TAKING PERSONALLY SHOTS AT PEOPLE
>FOR THEIR OPINIONS! HAVE YOU
>FORGOT THATS WHAT MAKES UP
>AMERICA?
>
>ITS LIKE WRESTLING IN THE MUD
>WITH A PIG. SOONER OR
>LATER YOU LEARN THE PIG
>LIKES IT!
>
>I TOO AND LOOKING FORWARD TO
>SEE WHAT COMES OF ALL
>THIS!
>
>THANKS FOR TIME
>JOE
>
>
>
>"Sometimes you do things wrong for
>so long you
>think their right" - 2001
>"I can't argue with honesty" -
>2005
>-Joe E Sikora


First off, there is no need to yell, as I can read your print fine without you resorting to caps! You were talking directly to me in that post just like it was in a PM when you made the comment about using your name out on the threads. To me that statement meant that I don't because I don't want people to know who I am. That's the way it was taken whether that's why you made it or not. Most people, including myself, have a username they go by along with the choice to have their actual name and where they live in their profile. I choose to do that, but many won't do that and it's irritating to a lot of us, but it is what it is. Again, I'm sorry, but if you're on Forums like this that are dealing with important stuff, and this certainly is one of the biggies, then you should have thick skin and be prepared to read things by some that aren't as tactful as the way Hawkeye puts things, LOL! The guy is a phenom the way he deals with this on a daily basis, so kudos to him for being able to do that. I'm obviously not remotely able to stay calm on important stuff like we're talking about when all we continue to get is the same old stonewalling like we've been getting from the SFW crowd for years. You mentioned wrestling in the mud with a pig and that seems like a very good comparison to the people we're dealing with that continue to make excuses and post BS when all they need to do is be transparent with a public resource they've been entrusted with! Have a good evening!
 
"close to $500K a year"

He's joking again! Always joking, that feller. $500K? Give me a break!

How stupid is that?

University of Utah Athletics announced Friday that head coach Kyle Whittingham has agreed to terms on a four-year contract that will extend him one year through 2018 and quell speculation that his days on the hill may be numbered. In the new deal, which has yet to be signed, Whittingham will earn $2.6 million in 2015 with an automatic $100,000 increase each year, making the four-year deal worth a total of $11 million.

University of Utah athletics announced a contract extension for Larry Krystkowiak, who led the Utes into the second weekend of the NCAA Tournament in his fourth season. The new deal will keep Krystkowiak through the 2022-23 season and pays $2.4 million per year, according to a Utah athletics release, making him one of the highest-paid coaches in the Pac-12.

Utah State University this week, Aggie head football coach Matt Wells, who just received an extension until 2019, will get $470,000 in base annual gross salary for the 2015-16 school year ? a $200,000 bump from when he became head coach in 2013. That new base pay will increase to $570,000 by the 2019-20 school year.

And SFW is paying a paltry $500,000? Pretty clear who's getting screwed here. Tell you what needs to happen, if this is true, and I wouldn't know, because I don't spend my time worrying about what the 500 pound gorillas in the State are getting paid. They need to raise the Expo 200 tags application fees to $10 from the current $5. They need to "at least" double the amount they are paying Mr. Peay for those consulting fees. Somebody needs to bring this up to the Legislature/Department of Natural Resourse. I dang sure will, that's a fact. I'll bring it up with Mr. Styler asap.

Of course, I'd want to re-negtiate the % that goes back to the State. $10 to apply is fair and reasonable, so we could drop the rate to 15% from the present 30%, to protect the amount of money goings back to the DWR. ;-) It's the same rate the State application fees have been for many years. the Expo Application fees need to be increased to the same. It's obvious we have been under paying our people.

Tell you what, you give the father of the young man that killed that wolf in his cows, over here in Beaver last year, a call. You ask him if Mr. Peay is worth $1,000,000 a year. Let him enlighten you on the value sportsmen are getting from their contractual arrangements with Mr. Peay.

Oh ya,.......those three Coaches work for the State of Utah, and their salaries come out of the State Treasury/Trust, image that, 2.6 million dollars a year to a football coach, plus an automatic increase of another $100,000 year. And we are only paying something less than $500k a year, for our coach? (That what a consultant is, in case you happened to miss the parallel there. Sure wouldn't want be accused of comparing apples to rutabagas, again. :) )

Give me a break!

DC
 
>"close to $500K a year"
>
>He's joking again! Always joking,
>that feller. $500K?
>Give me a break!
>
>How stupid is that?
>
>University of Utah Athletics announced Friday
>that head coach Kyle Whittingham
>has agreed to terms on
>a four-year contract that will
>extend him one year through
>2018 and quell speculation that
>his days on the hill
>may be numbered. In
>the new deal, which has
>yet to be signed, Whittingham
>will earn $2.6 million in
>2015 with an automatic $100,000
>increase each year, making the
>four-year deal worth a total
>of $11 million.
>
>University of Utah athletics announced a
>contract extension for Larry Krystkowiak,
>who led the Utes into
>the second weekend of the
>NCAA Tournament in his fourth
>season. The new deal will
>keep Krystkowiak through the 2022-23
>season and pays $2.4 million
>per year, according to a
>Utah athletics release, making him
>one of the highest-paid coaches
>in the Pac-12.
>
>Utah State this week, Aggie
>head football coach Matt Wells,
>who just received an extension
>until 2019, will get $470,000
>in base annual gross salary
>for the 2015-16 school year
>? a $200,000 bump from
>when he became head coach
>in 2013. That new base
>pay will increase to $570,000
>by the 2019-20 school year.
>
>
>And SFW is paying a paltry
>$500,000? Pretty clear who's
>getting screwed here. Tell
>you what needs to happen,
>if this is true, and
>I wouldn't know, because I
>don't spend my time worrying
>about what the 500 pound
>gorillas in the State are
>getting paid. They need to
>raise the Expo 200 tags
>application fees to $10 from
>the current $5. They
>need to "at least" double
>the amount they are paying
>Mr. Peay for those consulting
>fees. Somebody needs to
>bring this up to the
>Legislature/Department of Natural Resourse.
>I dang sure will, that's
>a fact. I'll bring
>it up with Mr. Styler
>asap.
>
>Of course, I'd want to re-negtiate
>the % that goes
>back to the State.
>$10 to apply is fair
>and reasonable, so we could
>drop the rate to 15%
>from the present 30%, to
>protect the amount of money
>goings back to the DWR.
>;-) It's the same
>rate the State application fees
>have been for many years.
>the Expo Application fees need
>to be increased to the
>same. It's obvious we
>have been under paying our
>people.
>
>Tell you what, you give the
>father of the young man
>that killed that wolf in
>his cows, over here in
>Beaver last year, a call.
> You ask him if
>Mr. Peay is worth $1,000,000
>a year. Let him
>enlighten you on the value
>sportsmen are getting from their
>contractual arrangements with Mr. Peay.
>
>
>Oh ya,.......those three Coaches work for
>the State of Utah, and
>their salaries come out of
>the State Treasury/Trust, image that,
>2.6 million dollars a year
>to a football coach, plus
>an automatic increase of another
> $100,000 year. And we
>are only paying something less
>than $500k a year, for
>our coach? (That what
>a consultant is, in case
>you happened to miss the
>parallel there. Sure wouldn't
>want be accused of comparing
>apples to rutabagas, again. :)
>)
>
>Give me a break!
>
>DC

http://www.reactiongifs.com/speechless-cu/

Grizzly
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-02-16 AT 10:39PM (MST)[p]Well..........now I need to confess a little something.

I really don't care all THAT much about SFW, but don't tell anybody.

See.......this last few weeks has actually been all about me.

The Western Hunting Expo is rapidly approaching and I plan on spending a day or two enjoying the event again this year.

I used to spend the entire year here in Monster Muley, participating in the discussions on SFW. Lord, if you search the archives here you'll find volumes that I've written, in years past.

It was all about building a reputation, you know. I want attention and recognition. I wanted to be "impotent"! It's worked to!

When I would go to the Expo, I made sure my name tag said, "2Lumpy" in large bold letters. You can't imagine how many people see that name tag and run over and tell how much they loved me and appreciated my MM posts. They praise me, they thank me, they dang near worship me. It's almost embarrassing, but not really, I get it. Oh, it's amazing actually. Total strangers run clear across the vendor area and ask if they could buy my lunch. Their girl friends want my autograph, any you can't believe were some of them want it. They all want to me re-tell my MM stories to others in their group, about my posts and the stuff I'd said, about this or that. They ask me over and over again, to tell the stories of MM posts from years past.

I get offered free hunts, fishing trips for eight, new rifles, atvs, (I turn those down, out of respect for BCat), and my favorite, all the free honey roasted almonds I can eat. I can eat a lot of'em, I love those little babies. I think the vendors think if they can get me to their camps, it will bring a lot more business their way. Kind of a investment/advertizing/endorsement sort of thing I suppose.

By the time the Expo's over, I'm plumb exhausted. Must be how those rock bands feel after a big show and all those screaming crazies rush the stage. It can be pretty scary, I'll tell ya that fur-sure.

I guess I'm kind of "rural legend" at the Expo. Kind of like a urban legend but, you know........ from the country. Guys at the Expo think country legends are cool. Women too.

It was especially entertaining when SFW asked me to work in the Women's Sports Apparell/Lingerie booth. It was purely innocent to begin with. One of the ladies working in the booth need to go to lunch with her daughter and they needed someone quick, to fill in for an hour. I happen to be standing around, advising some of my fans, so they asked me if I'd run over there and help for a few minutes. I did. My Gawd, when those women say it was ole 2Lumpy running the sizing room, they came pouring in there like salmon on herring. I tried to tell the Security people, that were trying to separate those women, I was just a harmless old man but they said those ladies could not behave like that, out in front the public and kids and all.

You might have noticed, SFW has not had a clothing booth at the Expo for the last two years. I've been going to ask someone about that.

Well anyway, back to my confession. I figured, now that I've kind of been at this for a few years and become a household name with you folks, I don't think I need to spend as much time posting stuff about SFW, all year round. So this year, I just waited until a few weeks before the Expo, jumped on a well developed thread and did my business, just to kind of "set the stage" so to speak, for my annual "meet the fans" days, at the Show. You know, once a guy gets established, he don't have to work as hard to maintain his bad reputation. Now days I just do a little advertising, right before I leave home, and it seems to work just fine. The SWF faithful enjoy my new stuff but it would surprise you how much of the old stories they still want me to re-tell. I've found over the years, if you prepare your fields well, the corn will grow every year.

I will be making a small improvement to the Show this year, for all of you that want to visit while your at the Expo, beside my large name tag, I will be wearing new custom SFW shirt this year, with extra large letters, "I'm 2Lumpy" embroidered on the back. Idea being, it should help folks find me a little easier. I was considering neon but was afraid one of the "good old boys" might bust it up while they were "slapping little ole me" on the back.

I love big a "big deal". That's way I post here. I confess, it's all about me, and always will be.

DC

Oh,ya! See you at the Expo.
 
Somebody ain't wintering well.




"The State of Utah has not given BGF anything.
They have invested in BGF to protect their
interests."
Birdman 4/15/15
 
Lumpy's family is not sure whether it is dementia or ADD again. DeLoss, take some rytalin and lay down. We will pick up this conversation when you are rested and can better focus.

On serious note, Lumpy has demonstrated once again the typical SFW response to legitimate questions and concerns from the public. SFW has absolutely no intention to address the issues or account for funds generated from public assets. Thanks for being the SFW spokesman Lumpy. Message received.

-Hawkeye-
 
If you know anyone who's going down to the expo please see that Sugar Ray Err Lumpy gets some smelling salt.
 
I'm sure SFW loved one of their own publicly justifying the salary of their "consultant" by comparing it to that of actual State employees. You know, the kind that have audits and oversight boards and public financials and are legitimately employed by the state, not just by some quasi-public/private boondoggle that nobody can quite figure out.

I'm sure somebody behind a desk had a "D'oh" moment over that one.

Grizzly
 
I have a question for both sides of this issue. Have any of you reached out to the other side to get a different point of view? I'm not agreeing with one side or the other, I'm just saying!

The reason I ask this is because I have and they both drove me to drinking today! LMAO! I want to thank everyone that took time out of their busy day to speak with me.

So if you don't take that time shame on you!

Your friend Joe

"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long you
think their right" - 2001
"I can't argue with honesty" - 2005
-Joe E Sikora
 
Joe, I've had personal and phone conversations with both sides. I had a great talk with JMO once and he was very respectful of our concerns, but wasn't able to make improvements.

Hawkeye has documented everything he's said, and none of its been disputed on a factual basis... but there's yet to be any answers provided.

How did your diplomatic efforts go? Any progress getting the questions/concerns laid out by Hawkeye answered/alleviated?

Grizzly
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-03-16 AT 07:18PM (MST)[p]Grizzly, thanks for that question! I hope the conversations I had today brings fourth some resolution to this debate. I also told both sides that if this works I WANT ALL CREDIT AND KUDOS!

Everyone once the same thing. It's time to let the past and the egos go and deal with the present.
I have nothing but respect for the Gentleman I spoke with today. They are true Gentleman in every sense of the word. This might seem silly but I believe things happen for a reason, so I ask myself how did I get here? So if my involvement is to paint both sides in a corner, then so be it! Because now if they don't try to work it out then shame on them

Thanks again Joe

Now if I seem all over the place. I wasn't kidding that they drove me to drinking today!
Although I have to admit it wasn't that long or that painful of a drive. LOL!

"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long you
think their right" - 2001
"I can't argue with honesty" - 2005
-Joe E Sikora
 
Grizzly what I dislike is when people don't want to get both sides of the story and Grizzly I commend you for doing just that? I too spoke with Justin and he is a very passionate young man. I have to laugh because he kept talking wth me as he was loading up the family in the mini van to go out to dinner and I'm sure his wife wanted his head on a stick. So thank you Miss Justin's wife for being so understanding! My wife laughed when I told her the story because she would have done the same for me. Justin we are lucky to have women that put up with us!

Joe

"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long you
think their right" - 2001
"I can't argue with honesty" - 2005
-Joe E Sikora
 
We are lucky guys Joe. I'm at Disneyland with the family right now. I showed my wife your post and she says you're right. I spoke with Hawkeye today while waiting to get on the Disney Cars ride. We had a good talk and I hope to see some positive results of it. Wish me luck on a 10 hour drive home with 5 kids in the Yukon. I'm anti minivan.
 
Hawkeye, I'm not trying to had fuel to the fire and most of what you say I agree with, but with this long winded subject it is just like the fins on a windmill, going nowhere but around and around. On a previous conversation you said that you doubted if there would be a law suit. This subject should be handled by the courts or dropped. I not a real big supporter of SFW, but I am much less of a supporter of RMEF. The simple reason being this: RMEF or SFW will have influence where the money going - - RMEF - grass for elk. SFW - many different projects and political issues.

On the other hand if SFW is going to get the contract for 200 tags it should be transparent. It is obvious the expo is as big as it is because of those tags. Somebody dropped the ball, but very little if any thing will happen on this forum. Beat your shoe on the desk of a politican or with the DWR - Geez!! Enough said.
 
Justin, I did forget you had a Yukon. I too am a GMC man, I've been driving Sierra 4x4's since 1985.
Be safe on your trip home

Joe

"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long you
think their right" - 2001
"I can't argue with honesty" - 2005
-Joe E Sikora
 
Cannonball-

There are a lot of people putting in a great deal of effort to address this problem. This includes contacting the DWR, the Wildlife Board, the legislature, the media and others. Trust me, I have beat my shoe on the desks of the DWR and a number of politicans. In prior posts, I stated that I did not think that RMEF would file a lawsuit. They are disappointed in the process employed by the DWR but as stated by Randy Newberg they are a conservation organization and they are not in the business of suing states or state agencies. I have heard talk from others exploring the possibility of a lawsuit but I am personally focusing my efforts on a political fix.

The one thing I can guarantee is that we will not drop the issue. That is exactly why this problem has continued for 9 years -- because the groups and the DWR can count on sportsmen griping for a few weeks when the expo approaches or a new contract is signed and then getting sidetracked with other issues and their busy lives. They have relied on sportsmen apathy to perpetuate this problem. So I will apologize in advance but "the fins on the windmill will keep turning" until this problem is fixed. With all due respect, if you are tired of the discussion then stay off the thread. Or better yet, roll up your sleeves and start contacting your legislators and demanding that the groups account for the application fees. Help us and be a part of the solution.

-Hawkeye-
 
I am not one to get up in front of a meeting and watch the Big Game Board or the DWR yawn at a presentation, but I am a big one for writing letters to those groups and I always copy the Governor. Believe me I have sent many letters for all the good it has done is very small and like most of you I thought my view was obviously bare faced "correct".

As I have stated before, transparency where permits are given "Yes", RMEF with the permits "No".

I am starting to feel like one of those fins on that windmill. I guess I better shut up. If Lumpy will keep writing I will keep reading though.
 
Cannonball, thanks for the many letters you have sent requesting transparency. Remember, at the end of the day, we are on the right side of this issue. Never feel bad about trying to right a wrong!

-Hawkeye-
 
Joe, thanks for taking the time to get involved. Your suggestion of the sit down with both sides is accurate. Actually there are three sides.

Tag pimps

The Division

Those opposed to commercialization of a public resource.

The tag pimps prime interest is maximizing dollars for wildlife. This started as a noble cause but has somehow evolved into all aspects of game management and lately politics.

The Division is driven by a couple of motives. Money or political directives that tie their hands. Either way they are no longer able to fill their charge of Utah's Game Keepers.

Those, like myself and many others realized early on that this model of funding / management is a flawed system that would bring us to where we are now. It was inevitable.

The Division is ineffective / spineless at best and fully complicit / politically ordered at worst. They can't or won't help. Sportsmen have tried working through this channel for 20+ years.

Some people honestly buy in to the SFW philosophy, some offer support because SFW enabled and aided in pushing their corrupt personal agendas.

Wherever you stand it is clear, the current path is not viable any longer. It's divisive, crony, and political.

It's time to pour the gas and strike the match.






"The State of Utah has not given BGF anything.
They have invested in BGF to protect their
interests."
Birdman 4/15/15
 
The match has been struck. Gasoline has been splattered.

I'm a 4th generation native of Utah...been hunting and fishing here since I was a babe. My mother was a hunter and carried me with her on the deer hunt before I could walk.

Seems to me that this entire conversation is messed up from the get go. It astonishes me that any NGO could control any public land tags to begin with. But okay...shouldn't that NGO at least be held to a higher standard? Get serious - SFW would cease to exist without these tags. Their expo would go to ##### in a hand basket. Their organization would blow away in the wind. Y'all argue about percents...but get serious. These tags enable SFW to continue. Take away this subsidy, SFW would fold in a heart beat. Ain't about wildlife at all.

I stood on the capitol steps. This ain't what I stood for. How about you?
 

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