Points are Points

[Simpleton]

Heard rumblings that there is a proposal in the works that will be presented and, if accepted, would transition UT from 3 separate point classes for deer (LE, DH, and GS) to a system that would consider all deer hunts as pulling from the same point pool. I imagine this would still maintain designations of General Units and Limited Units to account for Lifetime License obligations. Interesting though.. how would this land with you guys?

My first thought is they would have to decide what they would do with hunters that have points in all 3 categories, whether that is just add them together or something else.

Second thought is that they would almost have to do this with elk and make the general elk be broken into units, otherwise you could see a big jump in elk point creep where anyone applying for LE Deer would now be able to apply for both.

I don't hate it. If it happened, I'd likely just continue to put in for my favorite general with hopes of having it every year. It would be more similar to CO except with a bonus system rather than a preference system, but I am curious how you all feel?

 

[elkhunterUT]

I'm on board for deer - you have to draw to hunt all General or Limited deer units now anyway so just combine it all into one draw and a point is a point. The lifetime license holder situation does pose a bit of a problem here though (as you noted, maybe just flag all of the LE units as units where a lifetime license can't be used)

Keep elk the way it is now. I personally like being able to apply for LE elk units but also buy a general archery or muzzy/rifle tag as an option to hunt after the draw.

 

[LIK2HNT]

Will be interesting to see how many people are in each point tier once they add points.

 

[lostinOregon]

This is a bad idea. You think point creep is bad now. Just wait

 

[LIK2HNT]

This is a bad idea. You think point creep is bad now. Just wait

So what’s the point scale going to be?
Zero to something like 60 points?

 

[elkhunterUT]

This is a bad idea. You think point creep is bad now. Just wait

True for the most coveted units (which are already really bad) but it forces a guy to choose whether he wants to wait in line for MANY years to hunt, or hunt more frequently on a lower tier "LE" or "General" unit. As it sits now, you have guys chasing both the LE tag and General tag.

 

[elkassassin]

There A Committee For It Yet?

 

[Mallardsx2]

The sad part is that even if you added my le deer points and my gs deer point together, I still wouldn’t be able to draw even a shitty unit and I have been applying for 8 years in both. Lol

 

[johnnycake]

Rumblings from whom? Been rumblings from posters on forums about proposals like this for over a decade that have never coalesced in the real world.

 

[elkassassin]

They're Also Talking About Ending The LL's!

 

[Togwotee]

Leave it alone. those who've paid their dues the longest reap the rewards, if they don't die first. Utah already hosed the high point holders hard enough in the new elk plan give deer hunters a break.

This is the world we live in today, nobody wants to wait their turn they want to change the rules so everyone can win today because they're entitled. the whiney lame argument that it' not fair to young people is the worst one. the old guy with 40 points should give up his chances so a newbie gets a better shot? who gave up a tag for him? does he have another 40 years ? this whole game is getting stupid.

 

[grizzly]

Combine them and I'm at 34

 

[elkassassin]

You Think You're Gonna Hunt ALCATRAZ Or What?

Combine them and I'm at 34

 

[elkassassin]

Yes!

So what’s the point scale going to be?
Zero to something like 60 points?

 

[elkassassin]

Me: That A PISSCUTTER You Shot Niller?

Niller: Ya It Is!

But By Gawd It Only Took Me 58 Points!

 

[Simpleton]

Leave it alone. those who've paid their dues the longest reap the rewards, if they don't die first. Utah already hosed the high point holders hard enough in the new elk plan give deer hunters a break.

This is the world we live in today, nobody wants to wait their turn they want to change the rules so everyone can win today because they're entitled. the whiney lame argument that it' not fair to young people is the worst one. the old guy with 40 points should give up his chances so a newbie gets a better shot? who gave up a tag for him? does he have another 40 years ? this whole game is getting stupid.

I guess I don't follow your logic... how does moving to a single point system make a guy with 40 points "give up his chance" at a tag?

Based on my conversations with the people who wrote the proposal the goal of it is to force guys to pick whether they want to wait for a higher quality hunt and hunt it less often or hunt with more frequent opportunity. It takes away the current situation in which you have multiple point systems that make it to where guys can have their cake and eat it too.

I don't hate the idea because that is what we all always hear... you have some guys that want to hunt more regularly and they don't care about quality and others that want higher quality even if it means hunting less often. This would force the hunter to choose instead of being able to do both. In my opinion is that it would take a couple of years to see where it lands, but points for the majority of hunts would be reduced because you actually will have less total applications (something like 25% based on the stats I saw) for deer each year and the same amount of tags.

 

[Betterluckythangood]

I guess I don't follow your logic... how does moving to a single point system make a guy with 40 points "give up his chance" at a tag?

Based on my conversations with the people who wrote the proposal the goal of it is to force guys to pick whether they want to wait for a higher quality hunt and hunt it less often or hunt with more frequent opportunity. It takes away the current situation in which you have multiple point systems that make it to where guys can have their cake and eat it too.

I don't hate the idea because that is what we all always hear... you have some guys that want to hunt more regularly and they don't care about quality and others that want higher quality even if it means hunting less often. This would force the hunter to choose instead of being able to do both. In my opinion is that it would take a couple of years to see where it lands, but points for the majority of hunts would be reduced because you actually will have less total applications (something like 25% based on the stats I saw) for deer each year and the same amount of tags.

This is just another way to slice the “pie” in a different way. The pie will not be any bigger.

The people who would benefit from this the most are the ones who would exploit the change the fastest, then it would present new issues and someone else would dream up yet another way to slice the pie and it still wouldn’t be any bigger.

 

[elkassassin]

If They Do Change It & They Shouldn't!

But If They Do!

You Put In For One Hunt & One Hunt Only!

If You Draw,You Draw!

If You Don't Draw You Are Done!

None Of This 5 Choices BS!

If Niller Doesn't Draw His LE Buck Take With 37 Points,Tough Titty,He's Done!

And If He Tries To Draw An LE Deer Tag He Surrenders His LL For That Year! (If They Don't YANK Them!)

And He'll Think That's Not So Bad Until He Finds Out They YANK The LL's!

Gotta Get His BLOOD PRESSURE Up Where It Needs To Be!

 

[El_Matador]

I like the idea of combining everything. I think its absurd that you can get a general season hunting permit and accrue a bonus point during the same year. Waiting in 2 lines for the same species. One simple change they could make, which would solve much of the problem, would be to create a rule that prevents anyone from gaining a bonus point in a year when they get a general season tag. Go ahead and apply for whatever you want, but if you snag a general season tag you forfeit your bonus point that year. Unfortunately we all know the Wildlife Board loves point creep so I doubt such a change would happen.

 

[Utah400Elk]

I would be at 25 points. Nowhere near enough for a top tier unit. However, I do think forcing people to choose would help. Being able to build LE points while still hunting GS does devalue points. I am about to retire…2-3 years. I plan on using my points when I have a ton of time.

 

[wstrntines]

They're Also Talking About Ending The LL's!

Fine by me boomers have had it too easy.

 

[smokepolejohnson]

Combine them! Long over due. Simplify the points DNR racketeering scheme. Also should let you roll worthless Mt lion points into some kind of usable points maybe 3 to 1 or some ratio to deer/elk/bear or even cow elk points anything. Complete bull shidt to have 16 years of cougar points. I’m sure Peaday and the WB have something up there merino base layer sleeves

 

[elkassassin]

Hey spj!

My Son Had Quite Few Lion Points As Well!

He Was Hoping To Maybe Get A Chance At A Big Tom!

But Like You Said!

TOTAL F'N BS!

I Just Can't Wait Till Some ASSSSHOLE Drags The AI BullSShit In To Hunting!

Combine them! Long over due. Simplify the points DNR racketeering scheme. Also should let you roll worthless Mt lion points into some kind of usable points maybe 3 to 1 or some ratio to deer/elk/bear or even cow elk points anything. Complete bull shidt to have 16 years of cougar points. I’m sure Peaday and the WB have something up there merino base layer sleeves

 

[smokepolejohnson]

Hey spj!

My Son Had Quite Few Lion Points As Well!

He Was Hoping To Maybe Get A Chance At A Big Tom!

But Like You Said!

TOTAL F'N BS!

I Just Can't Wait Till Some ASSSSHOLE Drags The AI BullSShit In To Hunting!

Its complete horse shidt, filled a few Harvest objective tags over the years but always banked and applied for the trophy limited units prior to the big change in management with plans on some day putting down an old block head Tom. …Hope you’re wintering well out there in Gods country, there’s no place like the basin to celebrate Black History month.

 

[Downrange]

Leave it alone. those who've paid their dues the longest reap the rewards, if they don't die first. Utah already hosed the high point holders hard enough in the new elk plan give deer hunters a break.

This is the world we live in today, nobody wants to wait their turn they want to change the rules so everyone can win today because they're entitled. the whiney lame argument that it' not fair to young people is the worst one. the old guy with 40 points should give up his chances so a newbie gets a better shot? who gave up a tag for him? does he have another 40 years ? this whole game is getting stupid.

Nailed it

 

[middlefork]

I'm always confused as to what these changes hope to accomplish.
Is it the LE guys looking for an advantage or the GS guys?

Because that is all it is. How can I tweak the system to my advantage.

Keep reducing tags that will help a lot.

 

[heartshot]

Oh yes! Let's join them.................Only because I already drew.

 

[30Hart]

Yes all points in one bucket including OIL too then you can choose what you really want to hunt. Top point gets the tag by one and you get to keep the rest...ta that'll work.

 

[6pointbull]

When people say they want to combine points....which system are you going to combine? They are two very distinct systems. One being bonus points and the other are preference points. Preference point systems gives all the tags to the people with the most points. Bonus points in all intents just give you a better chance . Are you suggesting that the points are combined and turned to preference points or to bonus points? I for one have some preference points and they are much more valuable then bonus points when it comes to actually getting a tag.

 

[c3]

I'm always confused as to what these changes hope to accomplish.
Is it the LE guys looking for an advantage or the GS guys?

Because that is all it is. How can I tweak the system to my advantage.

Keep reducing tags that will help a lot.

How about it's just a system that will simplify the game for everyone. All tags all seasons all weapons are on the same point system. No more do you get to do both. You have to decide if your first choice is a gen hunt or a LE hunt. Then from there the second choices are much more random and everyone has a chance.

It won't make any difference for elk, but for deer, there's not much difference between a Fishlake deer tag one on the Vernon, but now you'll have to choose. Makes the whole state way more consistent between perceived value and points required.

Just my $0.02

Cheers, Pete

 

[johnnycake]

How about it just goes to random draw for all tags?

 

[elkassassin]

That Ain't A Bad Idea!

But Are The Big Game Hunters Gonna Be Willing To Throw All Their Points Out The Window Like The Lion Hunters Did?

I Get A Feeling There'd Be Alot More Friction If They Tried That BS On The Big Game Hunters!

But Then Again If They Did End The Points System They Could Just Open It Up Un-Limited & Year Around!

You Know!

If You See It From January 1st Till December 31st/Anytime Throughout The Year Just Kill it!

That Should Fix Everything & Within A Year You Wouldn't Have Anything Left To Argue About!

How about it just goes to random draw for all tags?

 

[goforbroke]

I doubt the change. It would mean less revenue for the state. I think they will make the change so residents can apply for points in all species and all once in a lifetime and then point creep will be worse, but the state makes more revenue.

Now we really need a thread to get the lifetime license changed so they get a free application every year, but have to have the points to draw just like the rest of us!

 

[BrowningRage]

I don't see a combining of our points happening. I see us getting our higher points only AND an increase in application fees going forward... If this is real of course. And I'm feeling "glass half empty" tonight

 

[Vanilla]

The one benefit I see to combining LE and general season into one system is that it forces people to put their money where their mouth is.

Are you REALLY a trophy hunter? Are you willing to not have a deer tag for 20+ years at all? I doubt so many folks on here that claim they want tag cuts and are willing to sit out are truly willing to sit out. But it would sure be nice to shut them up. It’s almost worth making this change just to shut them up.

 

[Simpleton]

The one benefit I see to combining LE and general season into one system is that it forces people to put their money where their mouth is.

Are you REALLY a trophy hunter? Are you willing to not have a deer tag for 20+ years at all? I doubt so many folks on here that claim they want tag cuts and are willing to sit out are truly willing to sit out. But it would sure be nice to shut them up. It’s almost worth making this change just to shut them up.

This is spot on. If @Vanilla is correct (I think he is) and most people truly aren't willing to wait, it will dramatically reduce points required for higher quality units. Points required for the General will also be reduced, on average, as the people who stay with high end units will not be applying.

 

[bragabit]

I am ok with them combining deer points, but only if they do basically the same with elk. Put the spike and any bull hunts into the draw. Wouldn't be fair to people with deer points to make them burn a bunch of points to hunt a general hunt. While allowing people in the elk pool to continue to build elk points. Hunt spikes, and apply for deer.

 

[Vanilla]

Include antlerless as well. All one pool per species!

 

[mickeyelk]

Game and fish would lose allot of money for the separate application fees!

 

[johnnycake]

Include antlerless as well. All one pool per species!

Let's just have one set of "points" across all species and make it a random draw for what species/season you get! 47 points might get you a Henry's multi season buck tag or it might get you a Northern unit turkey tag. Roll the dice and see what happens!

 

[Elkrunning-Scared]

GS deer and LE deer all one points pool. You have to pick and choose.

GS elk and LE elk all one points pool. You have to pick and choose.

Is this what everyone thinking? Also what about the 5 year waiting period would that be gone?

 

[Vanilla]

Sounds like that’s the proposal being discussed here on MM. Eliminate the waiting period after combining everything. I think you’d have to.

 

[ElmerFudd]

Combining points is messed up. Making you pick one type deer tag to gain a point in each year would be ok.

 

[D_Hoyt]

I’m opposed to combining them.

 

[Katoom]

If they simply added them or averaged them it would dramatically over value the general points and undercut the value of limited points already obtained. BAD idea. Keep the draws seperate. It would be fine to only allow you to apply in one or the other if they absolutely must make a change.

 

[gundog2]

I think you could leave everything the way it is with several additional restrictions:

1) you can’t apply for GSD and LED in the same year,
2) LLs have to choose whether to receive a GSD or apply for LED (but not both) each year,
3) you can’t apply for more than one LEE, GSE, or antlerless elk hunt in the same year.

All other rules stay the same, meaning you can’t apply for LEE and LED in the same year. Maintain the exact same preference and bonus point systems for deer and elk, keeping GSD, LED, LEE, and antlerless points in separate pools.

These additional restrictions do not help build herds, but I believe that they would help address point creep for deer and elk in an equitable fashion.

 

[yoteduster]

^^^^^^
I agree with this 100%

 

[elkassassin]

I Don't Know If Nilly Is Gonna Like Rule # 2!

I think you could leave everything the way it is with several additional restrictions:

1) you can’t apply for GSD and LED in the same year,
2) LLs have to choose whether to receive or GSD or apply for LED (but not both) each year,
3) you can’t apply for more than one LEE, GSE, or antlerless elk in the same year.

All other rules stay the same, meaning you can’t apply for LEE and LED in the same year. Maintain the exact same preference and bonus point systems for deer and elk, keeping GSD, LED, LEE, and antlerless points in separate pools.

These additional restrictions do not help build herds, but I believe that they would help address point creep for deer and elk in an equitable fashion.

 

[Simpleton]

I think you could leave everything the way it is with several additional restrictions:

1) you can’t apply for GSD and LED in the same year,
2) LLs have to choose whether to receive or GSD or apply for LED (but not both) each year,
3) you can’t apply for more than one LEE, GSE, or antlerless elk in the same year.

All other rules stay the same, meaning you can’t apply for LEE and LED in the same year. Maintain the exact same preference and bonus point systems for deer and elk, keeping GSD, LED, LEE, and antlerless points in separate pools.

These additional restrictions do not help build herds, but I believe that they would help address point creep for deer and elk in an equitable fashion.

So would you make all General Season Elk permits be by application (limited quota tags, and unlimited like archery and second rifle)?

 

[gundog2]

So would you make all General Season Elk permits be by application (limited quota tags, and unlimited like archery and second rifle)?

Not necessarily. This could be accomplished using the same “eligiblity” system that is already in place. For example, the current application system says that I am not eligible to apply for LEE because I am in waiting period. It also says that I am not eligible for any of the youth permits because I am too old. So perhaps they could set things up so that you are not eligible to apply for antlerless hunts or GSE hunts if you already applied for LEE?

 

[Vanilla]

I think this new proposal is splitting hairs a bit. I don’t see a huge practical difference in making one point pool per species versus the restrictions gundog2 is suggesting.

Either way, it forces people to decide what they really value, and I’m becoming more of a believer in that as the days go on.

I hate that it’s come to this, but it may have come to this.

 

[elkassassin]

Well Nilly!

You've Sure Mellowed Out Here Recently!

I'll Try Not To Raise Your Blood Pressure Ever Again!

 

[Challis_Willson]

Not a fan of the potential proposal. Leave it alone, stop changing stuff. Yes it sucks you have to wait a long time to draw LE tags.

Hypothetical, all deer licenses are combined into one draw. You draw a LE tag, now your out 5 years from applying for any deer tag? Including general.

I am a fan of the current system, and I'll be honest, I buy points & or apply for LE deer, General deer, and Dedicated deer. IMO you'd be a fool not to if your hobby is hunting deer. I don't see how making the change will help in anyway.

IMO if we want to see a difference in the point structure stop awarding the tags 50/50 (preference vs random)

Run the draw 25/75, continue to build points, it'll only increase your chances in the random draw, and award more tags through the random.

The resource is scarce, and the demand is growing!! You cannot fix the system, None of the western states have a perfect allocation process. You're either lucky or your not.

People want their kids to have a chance to draw. Well 50% of tags are random. So there is a chance, older people who have waited for years want their tags, they've put in for decades so there is a sense of entitlement. One side will be mad no matter how you slice the pie. Combining deer into a singular application wont solve the issue.

 

[Elkrunning-Scared]

Not a fan of the potential proposal. Leave it alone, stop changing stuff. Yes it sucks you have to wait a long time to draw LE tags.

Hypothetical, all deer licenses are combined into one draw. You draw a LE tag, now your out 5 years from applying for any deer tag? Including general.

I am a fan of the current system, and I'll be honest, I buy points & or apply for LE deer, General deer, and Dedicated deer. IMO you'd be a fool not to if your hobby is hunting deer. I don't see how making the change will help in anyway.

IMO if we want to see a difference in the point structure stop awarding the tags 50/50 (preference vs random)

Run the draw 25/75, continue to build points, it'll only increase your chances in the random draw, and award more tags through the random.

The resource is scarce, and the demand is growing!! You cannot fix the system, None of the western states have a perfect allocation process. You're either lucky or your not.

People want their kids to have a chance to draw. Well 50% of tags are random. So there is a chance, older people who have waited for years want their tags, they've put in for decades so there is a sense of entitlement. One side will be mad no matter how you slice the pie. Combining deer into a singular application wont solve the issue.

I totally agree. But something needs to be done.
I truly don’t think you know what kind of hole we’re digging ourselves into.

Leaving this alone will be catastrophic in 10 to 15 years.

 

[middlefork]

Increasing people population and decreasing animal population is the hole we are digging.
How individual people get to participate with a diminishing resource is nothing but semantics.
The pie is getting smaller and those that want a piece is getting bigger.
With that said I have no idea how people will learn to hunt with the current model or the proposed model.

And it certainly has nothing to do with growing the herd.

 

[elkassassin]

Ya!

I Can't Wait To See The New Buck To Doe Ratio's At 5 Bucks Per 100 Does!

Add That BS In There As Well!

Increasing people population and decreasing animal population is the hole we are digging.
How individual people get to participate with a diminishing resource is nothing but semantics.
The pie is getting smaller and those that want a piece is getting bigger.
With that said I have no idea how people will learn to hunt with the current model or the proposed model.

And it certainly has nothing to do with growing the herd.

 

[Simpleton]

Not a fan of the potential proposal. Leave it alone, stop changing stuff. Yes it sucks you have to wait a long time to draw LE tags.

Hypothetical, all deer licenses are combined into one draw. You draw a LE tag, now your out 5 years from applying for any deer tag? Including general.

I am a fan of the current system, and I'll be honest, I buy points & or apply for LE deer, General deer, and Dedicated deer. IMO you'd be a fool not to if your hobby is hunting deer. I don't see how making the change will help in anyway.

IMO if we want to see a difference in the point structure stop awarding the tags 50/50 (preference vs random)

Run the draw 25/75, continue to build points, it'll only increase your chances in the random draw, and award more tags through the random.

The resource is scarce, and the demand is growing!! You cannot fix the system, None of the western states have a perfect allocation process. You're either lucky or your not.

People want their kids to have a chance to draw. Well 50% of tags are random. So there is a chance, older people who have waited for years want their tags, they've put in for decades so there is a sense of entitlement. One side will be mad no matter how you slice the pie. Combining deer into a singular application wont solve the issue.

You should reread the proposal. It recommended eliminating the waiting period if it were to be adopted.

If you gave more tags to the random side, point creep would be more like point jog.

 

[Simpleton]

Increasing people population and decreasing animal population is the hole we are digging.
How individual people get to participate with a diminishing resource is nothing but semantics.
The pie is getting smaller and those that want a piece is getting bigger.
With that said I have no idea how people will learn to hunt with the current model or the proposed model.

And it certainly has nothing to do with growing the herd.

You’re concerned people won’t learn to hunt? I’m sure they’ll manage. There would still be plenty of opportunity for those that choose to prioritize opportunity over perceived quality or rack size. And that is precisely the point. We are at a place where people will have to choose where their priorities lie. Personally, I’d prefer to be given the choice than to be force fed one or the other.

And to restate what’s been stated multiple times, the proposal isn’t about growing herds no matter how many times you say “this has nothing to do with growing the herds.” No one has ever said or implied that’s what its purpose is. Neither is the mule deer committee. It’s about managing people. Leave the biology to the biologists. Otherwise why have them?

I 100% agree with the first three statements you made. I’m not sure you would find anyone to disagree with those three sentences.

 

[Simpleton]

I think this new proposal is splitting hairs a bit. I don’t see a huge practical difference in making one point pool per species versus the restrictions gundog2 is suggesting.

Either way, it forces people to decide what they really value, and I’m becoming more of a believer in that as the days go on.

I hate that it’s come to this, but it may have come to this.

I agree, but it does have the plus of not making people feel like they are getting robbed of the points they have, either general or LE, or “cheated” because someone has banked 20 GS points. I think I’d still prefer something that brings it all to one draw for a few reasons, simplicity being among them.

 

[middlefork]

I get it. It is about managing people. Or at least about how others want to manage people. Some just don't agree how others want to manage people.
If the management idea is to limiting how many bucks can be killed then simply eliminate those that do kill bucks for an appropriate amount of time.
Apparently it is all about how many get to hunt and how long in between.
Somewhere between 30-40% are successful each year. Eliminate them from the draw for a few years and see what happens.

 

[elkassassin]

Here We Are Again!

Changing Things That Are Still Not Gonna Improve The Deer Numbers!

 

[Delta]

Reality is create your own opportunity. If you want to hunt every year create the opportunity. Points are points.