Request to MDF on Behalf of SFW

Hawkeye

Hawkeye

Long Time Member
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LAST EDITED ON May-12-11 AT 11:30AM (MST)[p]I posted this on a prior thread, which was apparently nuked, but I thought my fellow sportsmen would like to follow along and see what, if any, response I get from MDF. X-treme (Troy Justensen) has repeatedly represented that SFW wants to release the actual tag-by-tag drawing odds for the Hunt Expo as promised but MDF will not allow SFW to do so. X-treme also told me that if I sent an email to MDF making that request, it would happen. I still do not understand why it is my responsibility to make such a request when Don or any other SFW board member or executive could pick up the phone and resolve this issue in two minutes, but I wanted to indulge X-treme and play along.

So, I followed X-treme's advice and sent the following email to Miles Moretti (President/CEO of MDF) and Mike Laughter (Head of Utah Chapter of MDF). I even copied X-treme on my email so that he could be a party to any response I receive. If I ever get a response, I will post it up on the internet so it is clear once and for all where the two groups stand on the issue of releasing the drawing odds. I am tired of one partner blaming the other for its failure to honor its commitment.

I am not attacking any group or individual so I would hope that this post will not get nuked. Please keep your responses civil so that we can see this play out in front of the group.

__________________________________________________

Dear Miles and Mike-

My name is Jason Hawkins and I am a Utah resident and a concerned hunter and sportsman. Over the last few years, there have been numerous requests from the hunting public to have SFW and MDF release the actual drawing odds for the Hunt Expo. It is my understanding that when Don Peay and SFW were originally lobbying for the convention permits, it was represented that the drawing odds would be released and that a "significant portion" of the resulting funds would be used for actual conservation projects. As far as I can tell, neither of these promises has been fulfilled to date.

Last spring, SFW hosted a meeting in Salt Lake City for the general public to discuss issues of concern. Don Peay, Byron Bateman, John Bair, Troy Justensen and others were in attendance. During that meeting, SFW committed to releasing the actual drawing odds on a tag-by-tag basis for the Expo. Unfortunately, SFW has not followed through on that commitment. When pressed as to why they have not kept their promise, SFW claims that they want to release the actual drawing odds but their partner at the Expo (MD) will not allow them to do so. In other words, MDF has become the scapegoat in SF?s communications with the hunting public. I have heard Troy Justensen and John Bair use this excuse in person and I have also seen Troy use it repeatedly on the internet. I have included a link to an online forum discussion where Troy repeatedly blames MDF for refusing to allow SFW to keep its promise: http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/DCForumID5/17817.html

I certainly hope that this is not the case. I would hope that MDF would be anxious to disclose information about the convention permits, which at the end of the day are a public resource. This is particularly true given the fact that these permits were originally authorized based in part on an assurance that such information would be publicly available. Plus, SFW has already promised to release such information but is allegedly being hamstrung by MDF?s refusal.

Troy Justensen told me just this morning that ?[a]ll that it would take is a simple call or email from [me] to MDF and ask[ing] them if they would give their consent to post the actual Species Specific odds and it will be done.? Therefore, please give your prompt permission to allow SFW to honor its promise and release the actual drawing odds for the Expo. This information should have been provided long ago and it is not right for SFW to continue to blame MDF for its failure to keep its promises. I would appreciate a response outlining MDF's official position on this issue.

If you have any questions regarding this email or request, please feel free to contact me. Thank you for your time.


Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
Jason,

Well done and very resepctfully presented. It will be very informative for everyone when this information is made available to the public.

Bill
 
Looks Good Jason!

Thanks for taking the time to look into this. I am axcited to see the results. This was a very well though-out and polite request.
 
Make sure you let us know in the future what the outcome of the email is. Dang what happened to the DICTATOR post?
 
I can't figure out why anyone would care so much about the "odds"!
We all know, or reasonably SHOULD know, that the odds are not good. Duh!
Really, I can't think that "playing" the odds will help with tag procurement.

WHO CARES? You're going to apply or not anyway.

Is it really about the odds, or is it something else?

Zeke
 
I have said this before, I hope they do NOT release the draw odds. Reason is that everyone will see the difference in odds between the premium units and not so good units. Then the odds will be crappy across the board.
Put in for all or roll the dice on which ones you think are easiest to draw.


Mntman

"Hunting is where you prove yourself"
 
>I can't figure out why anyone
>would care so much about
>the "odds"!
>We all know, or reasonably SHOULD
>know, that the odds are
>not good. Duh!
>Really, I can't think that "playing"
>the odds will help with
>tag procurement.
>
>WHO CARES? You're going to
>apply or not anyway.
>
>Is it really about the odds,
>or is it something else?
>
>
>Zeke

+1.....WHO CARES!!!! I sure get sick of the whiny asses around here!!! But...if it was not this...they would find something else to hate!!
 
Here are some of the reasons why I would like SFW and MDF to release the actual drawing odds for the Expo:

1. SFW committed that this information would be publicly available when it originally lobbied for the convention permits in the first place.

2. SFW committed to releasing this information during our meeting last spring.

3. Many people want to know what the drawing odds actually are.

4. If we have the drawing odds on a tag-by-tag basis, we will know exactly how many people applied for the 200 permits. This will allow the general public to determine exactly how much revenue SFW/MDF generated from the application fees from the 200 convention permits (Total Number of Applicants x $5 = Total Revenue).

5. The 200 permits were taken out of the public draw and they are a public resource. As a result, I believe that SFW, MDF and the DWR have an obligation to ensure that they are being used properly and that information regarding those permits is available to the general public. The best way to ensure that public resources are not being misused is to ensure that the public?s business is done publicly ? hence GRAMA and FOIA.

These are a few of the reasons why I would like an answer. I am sure that other people probably have other reasons for wanting this information. I agree that knowing the drawing odds is not going affect whether or not I apply for tags at the Expo. At the end of the day, however, I would like to see these groups to keep their prior promises and stop blaming one another for some supposed inability honor their commitments.

If you are someone that does not care about this issue--more power to you. That does not change that fact that many people do want to know, and SFW has already committed to releasing this information if it can only get permission from MDF.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
Oh I see, It's about their money and really has nothing to do with the odds! (because we already KNOW the odds are crappy)

Why didn't you say that Mr. Hawkeye?

I do like your passion. We just don't seem to care about the same things. I see the tags going back to the sportsman, isn't that what we want? Are expo tags hurting your general draw odds that much? Really? I really like some of the things the SFW has done. I even like the expo tags!

Respectfully,
Zeke
 
Zeke-

I believe that I listed 5 reasons why I was interested in the drawing odds, yet you seem to focus on only one.

I too really like SOME of the things SFW has done. I would like them even more if their honored their committment on this issue. In any event, it sounds like this has moved beyond SFW, and MDF is the only obstacle at this point. Hopefully, MDF will not continue to hamstring SFW's desire to follow through.

Have a good evening.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
Hawkeye if you get this approval or response from MDF, wow! You'll be just like Donald Trump getting Obama's birth certificate.

Who Cares. We all know they are a crap shoot.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-12-11 AT 05:46PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON May-12-11 AT 05:45?PM (MST)

I think maybe I am wrong it won't be the first time, but didn't you Hawkeye draw one of these tags?

Edit for mis-spelling
 
LAST EDITED ON May-12-11 AT 09:21PM (MST)[p]Tikka-

Yes, I drew a deer tag at the Expo in 2008. Now remind me again what that has to do with SFW and MDF releasing the drawing odds for these tags, which SFW previously promised?

In case you are wondering, I am also a former member of SFW, I generally attend a couple of SFW banquets a year and I donate roughly $300 a year to SFW's "general fund" via the Expo. I am currently or have been a member of UBA, DU, Delta, NRA, MDF and several other conservation organizations. I also was a dedicated hunter for 9 years, I am a lifelong resident of the State of Utah, a tax payer and a registered voter in this fine state. I generally vote Republican although I consider myself a conservative and I like a really good steak grilled medium-rare. Based upon these facts, do I have your permission to ask MDF a legitimate question?

Oh, and I forgot to mention that Troy Justensen an Officer and Board Member of SFW invited me email MDF since he is apparently unsure why SFW will not agree to release the drawing odds.

Hawkeye

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
Hawkeye, perhaps the best way to get all the information, for so long promised and not released by SFW, might be to ask the new Wildlife Board member, who for years worked for that organization and who still would have very close ties and the "inside" scoop.

Surely a person in that position, with such integrity, would want his fellow sportsman, to know the odds, that have been promised and I bet he would also see great value, by informing all Utah residents and sportsman, a full accounting of the funds raised by the Convention Tags and subsequent spending of that money, as I am sure he wants the original commitment carried out as promised.

Most certainly, a person in that situation and with that inside knowledge, would be forth coming with those facts, as they would not want it to look like there was a conflict of interest or some kind of cover up! Perhaps you might write him a letter too and see what he says.

Have a good one. BB
 
Hawkeye's request is well put. Just because we know the draw odds suck doesn't absolve these groups from keeping their promises.
 
Any response yet?

I am kinda on the fence about this topic.....

Sure I would like to see the real odds but it wouldn't change my $100 donation each year.

Robb
 
>I can't figure out why anyone
>would care so much about
>the "odds"!
>We all know, or reasonably SHOULD
>know, that the odds are
>not good. Duh!
>Really, I can't think that "playing"
>the odds will help with
>tag procurement.
>
>WHO CARES? You're going to
>apply or not anyway.
>
>Is it really about the odds,
>or is it something else?
>
>
>Zeke

i think it is about more than the draw odds for some people.and it is called being lied to.if you are going to say that you are going to do something. like sfw did
then have a backbone and follow through with it.i know i am not going to donate money to an organization who says they are going to do one thing but does the complete opposite
 
Well, it has now been two days since I sent my email to MDF and I still have not received any response. I will certainly let you know if and when I hear anything.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
I'm with Zeke and BIG on this one. To me I have other things to worry about. We all know the odds suck. See the graphic below straight from this year's expo website. Is it really going to make a difference in your draw selection if you know an individual unit has a 1:150 vs 1:200 chance?

I understand when you say you want them to keep their word but its probably not going to happen.

9022capture.jpg


If I were SFW and MDF I wouldn't release the odds period. I was surprised they did it in any other fashion than they already have. It would just hurt the number of people applying.
 
The tags given to the SFW are a public asset being property of the people of Utah and its called disclosure.

"Courage is being scared to death but saddling
up anyway."
 
I did not apply for the show tags this year as I thought the odds would be worse then they actualy are. I'm going back I'n @ the next show. Now watch me draw a stupid turkey tag!

Justin Richins
R&K Hunting Company Inc.
www.thehuntingcompany.com
 
Unless I was having a bad dream...hasn't the EXPO draw odd's been posted on MM along time ago. I really dont understand all the grip about the draw odd's. They are bad at best. They get worse every year, with more and more people attending the EXPO. 13,000 increase in attendence this year. At least it's another chance to draw a tag. Because I sure as hell can't pay $5,000.00 plus for a hunt. Poor man's perspective I guess!
 
It is my understanding that the 200 tags were issued by the State Legislators to help bring in people from around the country to the Expo. The Expo was allowed because it brings in people from around the world to Salt Lake and that boosts the economy for the State. Those tags did not come from the draw and if done away with will not go back into the draw. The State Legislators did it for the income that it would bring to the State.
 
Aren't we all a good bunch of citizens?!

I've enjoyed this post because we can disagree and keep the thread civil!

Mr. Hawkeye,
Sorry for my lack of response our lives are more than MM. LOL
Thanks for your level-headed posts. However, I still contend that you might have used 5 numbers but you only made 1 point. You want to know how much money they make from the expo tags. Right?

I hope it's a ton because SFW is still the best thing we have going!

Good luck to all, the drawings are upon us!

Zeke
 
If the 200 tags were allowed by the Utah legislator to bring more tourist to Utah, then why did SFW want to hold the 2010 Expo in Reno, NEVADA??? It was even announced in MDF magazine that the Expo was going to be in Reno. My guess is after a $h!t storm of e-mails and phone calls they decided to axe that idea. I'd like to know which genius at SFW thought that was going to fly. Yea, lets take 200 tags from the residents of Utah and have the Expo in Reno, don't forget, you must attend the convention to put in for the tags.

1:150 or 1:200 odds. Yea right, you wish. More like 1: 25,000 for a Henrys deer tag and about 1:20,000 for a Pavhant elk tag.
 
SFW never wanted to go to Reno. PERIOD.

The Wild sheep foundation wanted to go there since they didn't like UT for their convention. The SFW had to "split" the convention "sheets" with Wild sheep so SFW COULD keep it in UT.

Zeke
 
The way it is set up those tags will not leave Utah. Even if SFW did move to another State which they will not, the tags must stay in Utah. That was the setup.
 
On Friday afternoon I received an email response from Miles Moretti, President/CEO of MDF. Mr. Moretti said that he would prefer to discuss these issues in person as ?[t]here is a lot of misinformation out there about the convention tags and the WHCE.? I accepted his gracious offer and we are scheduled to meet next Monday (May 23rd) at the MDF offices. The primary purpose of our meeting is for me to ask Mr. Moretti if it is true that MDF is the obstacle to SFW following through on its long overdue promise to release the actual tag-by-tag drawing odds for the Expo. If that is in fact the case, then I will ask Mr. Moretti to explain why MDF has taken that position.

Although I would have preferred a simple email response from MDF articulating its position that I could then share with this forum, I appreciate Mr. Moretti?s willingness to meet in person. I look forward to our meeting and I will make sure that I let Mr. Moretti know that I will be posting MDF?s position on this website (although I am fairly certain that he is fully aware of this fact and that is why he does not want to communicate about the issue in writing).

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
Well done! It is curious that both MDF and SFW when challenged to make things public both go to the come meet us in person line. I hope it isn't so that we can have a "he said, she said" thing going like Tony and Troy have about behind the scenes activity. I hope you will remind MDF that public means public. Anything short of open and COMPLETE disclosure, is not disclosure.
 
>>I can't figure out why anyone
>>would care so much about
>>the "odds"!
>>We all know, or reasonably SHOULD
>>know, that the odds are
>>not good. Duh!
>>Really, I can't think that "playing"
>>the odds will help with
>>tag procurement.
>>
>>WHO CARES? You're going to
>>apply or not anyway.
>>
>>Is it really about the odds,
>>or is it something else?
>>
>>
>>Zeke
>
>i think it is about more
>than the draw odds for
>some people.and it is called
>being lied to.if you are
>going to say that you
>are going to do something.
>like sfw did
>then have a backbone and follow
>through with it.i know i
>am not going to donate
>money to an organization who
>says they are going to
>do one thing but does
>the complete opposite

DPB, If you really feel that way you should stop paying your taxes. lol
 
I thought your purpose was to get the information? Now it appears that you may have an alternative motive to your questioning this process. If Miles can release the information than, what else is there? From what I read, Troy simply said SFW would not release the information without the consent of MDF as they are a partner in the Expo.
 
It was changed to thursday due to some work issues. I do want to here the results. Should be interesting.
 
IMO, this is an issue of transparency and accountability. I think it's just a matter of being smart and prudent with one's money and support.

Eldorado
 
The odds were posted earlier in this thread.I thought that was what the thread was about.Must have gotten turned into something else(as usual).Yawn...
 
LAST EDITED ON May-25-11 AT 07:29AM (MST)[p]Our meeting was originally scheduled for Monday (5/23) at 4:00 p.m. However, I had an emergency come up at work on Monday, and so I contacted Miles Moretti and he was kind enough to reschedule for Thursday at 9:00 a.m.

I will let you know how it goes tomorrow morning.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
Nontyp, if those were the CORRECT odds I'm sure Vegas loves you. You might even help their poor casino economy.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-25-11 AT 07:56AM (MST)[p]When the "true" odds are posted, I'll bet 99.9% of the people whining about them will apply anyway!

I don't care at all about the odds. If I did, I would have never drawn a bison tag a few years back.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-26-11 AT 03:12PM (MST)[p]I would like to update the group regarding the meeting that I had with Miles Moretti and Eric Tycksen from MDF this morning. Our meeting was originally scheduled for Monday afternoon but Miles was kind enough to reschedule in order to accommodate my work schedule. We met at the MDF offices and spent about an hour together. Both Miles and Eric were polite and professional as we discussed a number of different issues.

The primary reason why I originally contacted Miles was because I have heard and read SFW representatives state on several occasions that SFW is committed to releasing the actual drawing odds on a tag-by-tag basis for the Expo but their partner at the Expo (MDF) will not allow them to do so. I have heard Troy Justensen and John Bair use this excuse in person, and I have also seen Troy use it repeatedly on the internet. I simply did not believe that this was the case. I personally believe that SFW has simply changed its mind on this issue is using MDF as its scapegoat in SFW?s communications with the hunting public. In an effort to get to the bottom of the issue once and for all, I sent my original email to Miles on May 11, 2011. See my email in Post #1 above. I was hoping that MDF would outline its position in a response to my email but instead Miles elected to meet in person. I imagine that he did not want to send out an email that he knew would be posted on the internet.

During our meeting today, Miles flat denied the statement that MDF was the only obstacle to SFW releasing the actual drawing odds. In fact, he told me that following our meeting with SFW last spring (where SFW committed to, among other things, release the drawing odd), SFW and MDF got together and made a joint decision to NOT release the drawing odds. To quote Mr. Moretti, SFW and MDF are partners at the Expo and all decisions on issues such as these must be made jointly. Although MDF was very respectful in their comments towards SFW, I got the feeling that MDF feels like they have been thrown under the bus on this issue. When I pressed MDF as to whether they would agree to release the actual drawing odds, and if not why, they were somewhat reluctant to answer the question. I raised many of the same arguments outlined in Post #8 above. At the end of our meeting, Mr. Moretti made a commitment that MDF would schedule a meeting with SFW in the near future and together a reach a final decision as to whether or not they would release the drawing odds. Mr. Moretti also committed that in the event that they elect to not release the drawing odds, MDF and SFW would provide some explanation to the hunting public as to why (other than to blame it on the other partner). I was not thrilled with this answer but it was the best I could get.

At the end of the day, I appreciate both Miles and Eric taking time out of their schedules to meet with me today. Although we still do not have access to the actual drawing odds on a tag-by-tag basis for the Expo, I was at least able to dispel the notion that SFW was anxious and willing to release the drawing odds but MDF was holding up the process. I did my best to convince MDF that such information should be made public as previously promised but it was clear that they did not fully agree with my position. It will be interesting to see what if anything comes out after SFW and MDF have aired this issue out privately. Personally, I doubt that either group will follow through and release the odds but I at least hope that they provide an honest and legitimate explanation for their refusal to do so.

Based upon what I have heard and read to date, SFW?s prior explanation regarding its alleged inability to release the drawing odds appears to have been complete B.S. Moreover, after two separate meetings with SFW and MDF representatives, I still have not heard a single legitimate reason for their refusal to do so.

I was honest and up front with MDF about the purpose of my meeting, and I told them that I intended to post the information they provided so that others could better understand what is going on with these convention permits. I know that Miles and Eric are not regular posters on monstermuleys.com but they do read the comments from time to time (and I am almost certain that they are following this post). If either of you disagree with anything I have stated in my summary, please feel free to chime in and add any additional information that you think would be helpful.

On a side note, we also discussed several other issues during our meeting but I do not have time to cover those topics right now. Plus, I don't want to draw the attention away from the original purpose of this post which is to publicize the fact that these conservation groups should follow through on prior commitments and release the actual drawing odds on a tag-by-tag basis for the Expo.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
So, it is true!!!!

MDF and SFW flat out LIED about posting the odds and other things to "sweetin" up the opportunity to take public resources and do what ever the hell they want to do with out any obligations to us (general public) as what the odds are and what they are doing with the $$$ we have give them.

It sounds like also a classic case of LOOOOOSER elbow. Always pointing at someone else to blame.

Interesting, Thanks Jason!
 
LAST EDITED ON May-26-11 AT 03:25PM (MST)[p]My initial feeling after reading your update is that you were in a "circle jerk" for lack of a more polite way to put it. It sounds as if the decision has already been made by both organizations and that more time is needed for them to try and come up with what they feel is a "legitimate" excuse for not following through. MDF lost me as a member a few years ago and I don't plan on going back, but am funneling that dues money elsewhere and I suggest that maybe others do the same. I am not really surprised at all that you were treated with respect at your meeting this AM, but it's pretty obvious that you would be because of obvious ramifications if you weren't. I will be very surprised, as I'm sure many others will be, if they change their minds. Maybe people should funnel their dues money and any monies spent on the tag raffles into something else next year as sort of a boycott to get the message across to these groups that if they are to continue in business that they should be open and upfront in everything they do!!! Just MHO and I hope nobody comes on here and crucifies me for it!!!
 
Nope TG,
I'm not going to crucify you. I will simply be respectful of your opinion.
I, however, think it's a big waste of time to keep all the gum-flapping going on about the draw odds! Really boys? The Odds? Hawkeye has been involed enough to know it was never about the odds. He wants to know how much money they have so he can howl about that too!
It reminds me of kids fighting over a new toy!

Don't get us started on "area 51"! lOL

I do appreciate Mr. Hawkeye's thoughtful post without the name-calling usually associated with posts of this nature.

If the odds were 5000000 to 1 my guess is that folks would still play the game. I know the tags are cool. My son-in-law has one this year. Hehe

Best to you all. It's shaping up to be a good Fall!
Zeke
 
ZEKE, I dont want to crucify you either. But its not about the odds. Its about "I promise that if you give these tags to us (taken from a public resource), we will do the following:"

1- post the odds individually
2- tell you where the money is going
3- show you our accounting

and the list could go on.

LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES AND MORE LIES.

Tony Abbot is right about these groups.
 
People play the lottery all the time, we know the odds of winning such lottery is insane but we still play it. With draw odds out, it's not gonna hurt theirs sales. So, my question is what's their fear?

I'm with zeke, I could care less about draw odds, I'm gonna put in anyway. But what really intrigues me with them being so reserved about it, is what are they hiding really? Can't be a big dead to release this info... but something behind that curtain must be a big deal.
 
Robiland;
I must say the tags are not "taken" from the public.
The public seems to "get" the tags as they would have anyway. The UT DWR has simply allowed them to be distributed in the "expo" way.
Thanks for you viewpoint.
Zeke
 
ZEKE:

Did they take those tags from you or did you donate those tags? I am sorry if that is the case. Or did individual own those tags? I must have mis understood that part. BUT, if I am not mistaken, Those tags, even if given by the dwr (which is a state agency) are from the public. NO PRIVATE PERSON OWNES THOSE TAGS or DONATED THOSE TAGS. But they are on PUBLIC LAND AND ARE GIVEN TO THE PUBLIC. All that = public to me.

But,

If you say you are going to do something, then for hells sake......DO IT!!!
 
I'm slow so spell it out to me! LOL
The tags are a public resource, and as such, are simply distributed through the expo system. The expo does not OWN the tags. The expo simply DISTRIBUTES the tags.
They are not removed from the public, they are distributed to the public as a means to raise MONEY for wildlife project which otherwise would be un-fundable if the tags were sold through the usual manner. (we all seem to want more for less)
The UT DWR must feel like it's a win, win deal or the system would not perpetuate.
I guess I can't see how the tags are TAKEN from the public when the public ends up with them in their pockets!
Best regards,
Zeke
 
I agree 100 % !!! I am just saying we need to see ACCOUNTING AND ACCOUNTABILITY!

WHAT are they doing with the money? How much? And follow through with what you promise. That all. Good luck hunting this year to all!
 
The issue is really fairly simple in my mind. The convention tags are a public resource that have been turned over to private corporations in the name of conservation. As a result, there should be certain checks and balances and a level of transparency and accountability associated therewith. I think the State of Utah and the DWR have done a lousy job of monitoring these entities and reassuring the public that this is a good use of a public resource.

I am not suggesting any wrongdoing on the SFW or MDF. Frankly, I beleive they are both complying with the statutory requirements. However, why is there not a requirement that a set percentage of the monies generated from the convention permits be used for actual conservation? Why is there not a requirement that there be increased transparency and disclosure? Why has the DWR only conducted one audit of the convention permit process, as authorized by statute, since those tags were first implemented in 2006? Why has SFW refused to honor its prior committment to release the actual drawing odds?

As a concerned citizen and hunter, I have a right to ask questions and follow up on issues that concern me. All I am looking for is honest answers to legitmate questions. It really is not that complicated.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
I recall an issue a little while back, about the amount of money being spent on Utah wildlife from the Expo tag revenues. Question was , where is the money being spent and how much? Expo tags have created a lot of revenue, but the total amount has never been publicized, therefore leaving a question of how much ends up in someones pocket and how much is spent on wildlife and conservation, and each project in particular.
SFW and MDF will never release the odds as long as there is a mathematician out there who will sit down and do the math to come up with an amount gained in revenue, deduct amount spent on each project funded and expenses to operate the Expo, and come up with the sum being consumed by boardmembers .
Then , MDF and SFW will have to listen to sportsman about not funding certain pet projects and critiscism from Joe Public.
MDF and SFW made a promise and they should uphold said promise or forfeit all tags being considered for the future.
Maybe the board members pockets are being lined astronomicaly higher than funds being distributed among projects funded .
I too would be worried about this as well and would try to hide everything from the Joe Public's if I were guilty as well.
 
Mr Hawkeye,
At least you're not still saying your "great concern" is simply for the ODDS. (since we all know they're bad and don't seem to mind). I still apply for permits that are a long-shot and don't cry foul.

Like I said a couple dozen posts ago, you are asking about the money!

I don't know why you masked your "concern" in your previous posts.

You and I agree on a number of things. The most important is the freedom for a concerned citizen to ask questions.

Good luck in all you do!

As for me, I'll support SFW and the expo and I'm far from a blind follower.

Best,
Zeke
 
>The issue is really fairly simple
>in my mind. The
>convention tags are a public
>resource that have been turned
>over to private corporations in
>the name of conservation.
>As a result, there should
>be certain checks and balances
>and a level of transparency
>and accountability associated therewith.
>I think the State of
>Utah and the DWR have
>done a lousy job of
>monitoring these entities and reassuring
>the public that this is
>a good use of a
>public resource.
>
>I am not suggesting any wrongdoing
>on the SFW or MDF.
> Frankly, I beleive they
>are both complying with the
>statutory requirements. However, why
>is there not a requirement
>that a set percentage of
>the monies generated from the
>convention permits be used for
>actual conservation? Why is
>there not a requirement that
>there be increased transparency and
>disclosure? Why has the
>DWR only conducted one audit
>of the convention permit process,
>as authorized by statute, since
>those tags were first implemented
>in 2006? Why has
>SFW refused to honor its
>prior committment to release the
>actual drawing odds?
>
>As a concerned citizen and hunter,
>I have a right to
>ask questions and follow up
>on issues that concern me.
> All I am looking
>for is honest answers to
>legitmate questions. It really
>is not that complicated.
>
>Hawkeye
>
>Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
>Winchester Apex .50 Cal
>Mathews Drenalin LD

+1

Grey, fuzzy and flying under the radar.


http://unitedwildlifecooperative.org
 
You might not be blind, but surely not the best eye sight. Might even be concidered leagally blind. Good luck!
 
+100

It IS about the odds AND the money. The groups promised to release the odds and failed to follow through. Their inaction IS a big deal. I will vote with my feet and dollars, and support those organizations which promote transparancy. I have long believed that MDF had little, if anything, to hide. Their continued refusal to release this information is changing my mind. If they don't want me to know the odds, it is only because they think I will be unhappy once I learn the truth.
Shed some light on TRUTH, and release the odds.

Bill
 
This is a interesting topic, and I see both points of views. I do agree that the odds should be posted, as that was part of the deal. A mans word is a mans word, or should be. But if they post the odds I don't think it would change anything, people will still apply. I look at it this way as long as residents have to continue to pick 2 species to apply for, the expo gives us a chance to draw OIL tags that maybe without the expo could never apply for. A .001% odds is still better than 0%. Just my thoughts.
 
Hawkeye,

Well done! Thank you from a guy with kids and a job for doing what I am unable to do at the time! No, it isn't about the actual odds, whether they are 1 in 5000 or 1 in 7500 or whatever doesn't matter. What matters is that they are posted, whatever they be. Like most of you I don't get the secrecy either, I will still apply, I still go to Vegas. BUT, SFW and MDF made a deal, now they don't want to keep up there end and had hoped we would all stay quiet. We didn't so Don had to have a meeting, it shut us up for a while, but now we are back. IF SFW and MDF don't want to live up to their end, then we don't need to live up to ours, TAGS SHOULD BE REVOKED. If they want to try and renegociate and not give odds or an HONEST accounting, they can, but they know they will never be successful. Funny how quiet TROY IS. WHERE ARE YOU TROY? HOW COME SO QUIET? In all honesty I don't think they are doing anything illegal, I think they have some shady dealings that we might not like so they hesitate to publish their financials, but the odds seems like a stupid fight to pick on their side, but if they want to fight its up to them. My next e-mails are to the DWR, my local state reps, and the wildlife board, if your concerned you should do the same.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-27-11 AT 00:25AM (MST)[p]


Like I said in an earlier post, the issue here is one of transparency and accountability. I have no issues pressing the MDF, SFW, and other like groups to be more forthcoming and open in their operations and dealings with the outdoor community.

Eldorado
 
All of us owe a huge "THANK YOU" to Hawkeye for bird dogging this issue. Well Done! Thanks.

Whether you are pro SFW / MDF or against, holding non-profit groups accountable for their promises is truly important. SFW has been shown through their own posts on this site to be disingeniouos at best. Perhaps after next weeks' SFW / MDF meeting they will come clean and release the data. Every member should put pressure on their respective leadership to get this issue resolved so the groups can move forward to pursue their stated mission. Keeping this issue alive will do significant harm. Full disclosure is the only acceptable outcome.

Bill
 
Good for you Hawkeye. It's good to see you talking to these guys and sharing the info. with us all here on the site.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
Nick

Still here Brother!
Have not had time to surf the web, had to move some family from Las Cruces NM to S.T George and finish up our banquet season.

I still stand by what I was told. I was not in the meeting between MDF & SFW so all I can do is speak to what I with several others were told.

If I was told incorrectly so be it. I am a big enough boy to admit when I am wrong or have been given bad information. Until I learn otherwise I stand by what I said.

I agree 100% the Unit Specific Odds should be posted. I have always felt that way.

I also stand by what I stated concerning the meeting last year. SFW agreed to post the odds as long as MDF would agree.

Obviousley that has not happened yet. Hopefully when the two groups meet this will be resolved and the odds will be posted.

Don did not call the meeting typically Byron Bateman & Ryan Foutz are the ones reprenting SFW. I do not attend these meetings.

Troy Justensen
 
Troy-

I was out of town for a couple of days but I wanted to respond to your latest post. I have never accused you of purposely misleading anyone on this issue but it is fairly clear that somehow SFW and MDF somehow got their wires crossed. As an officer and paid employee of SFW, people assume that you know what you are talking about when you speak on behalf of SFW. As a result, I was surprised to hear you say that you were ?given bad information? on this issue. I don't believe that SFW was ready and willing to release the tag-by-tag drawing odds but was being held back by MDF. Rather, I suspect that SFW agreed to release the odds during our meeting last year in response to pressure from the public but then after the fact had second thoughts. Rather than simply acknowledging that they were flip-flopping on the issue, SFW chose to blame its partner-MDF.

If you truly ?agree 100% the Unit Specific Odds should be posted? and ?have always felt that way? then please use your position and influence to encourage Don, Byron and Ryan to honor SFW?s prior commitment and release the drawing odds, which are long overdue. You know the old saying, ?Talk is cheap but it takes money to buy whiskey.? Let's make it happen!


Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
Jason,

I have read your post and there are a couple of things that are not correct.

First I never stated that I was given "Bad Information" What I did say is that if I was given bad information or learned that I was wrong I was a big enough boy to stand up and admit it.

Second I am not an officer in SFW, yes I am a employee.

I disagree with your assumption concerning the posting of the Unit Specific Odds.

Like I stated before I will stand by what I said until it is made known to me that I was wrong or misinformed. I have no reason not to believe what I was told therefore I will stick to it.

It is my opinion that MDF & SFW will relaese the Unit Specific Odds. My feelings on this subject has not changed from the begining. I have always been a proponent of releasing these odds.

If I did have a say I would be infavor of doing so.
I do not make those decisions. So we will sit back and see what the two groups decide to do.

On a side note I would comend you on talking the time to go and visit with Miles & Eric. A lot of people like to question things but never put fourth the time or effort to find out the facts and truth.

Troy Justensen
 
Hawkeye,

Thumbs up man. That's all I have to say.

I can't believe some people on here take issue with you because you are taking someone to task about how they spend your/our resources. These organziations are funded by the use of public resources (OUR RESOURCES), and the transparency should be that of a public agency. What state does not provide draw data results, and how would people react if they did not provide that data?

That Zeke dude is out to lunch and has a hard on for your for some reasons.

Excavator
 
Troy-

Rather then coming on here and trying to correct some alleged errors in my prior post, you would be better off spending your time trying to find out why the message you received from your buddies at SFW is in direct conflict with the message coming out of MDF. Better yet, why not focus your efforts on pushing for the release of the actual tag-by-tag drawing odds that were promised long ago. Moreover, I believe that my prior post was completely accurate.

First, you take issue with me quoting your prior statement that you are ?a big enough boy to admit when [you are] wrong or have been given bad information.? With all due respect, that appears to be exactly what occurred here. For months you have been telling people that SFW wanted to release the drawing odds but MDF would not allow it to do so. When I sat down with the President/CEO of MDF and asked him if this was the case, he flat out denied your story and told me that SFW and MDF met together and made a joint decision to not release the drawing odds. Unless I am missing something, there are only three possibilities to explain this apparent inconsistency: (a) SFW was lying and blaming MDF in an effort to cover up its flip-flop on the issue; (b) MDF really did prevent SFW from releasing the drawing odds but lied about it in order to avoid taking the heat from the hunting public; or (c) Both groups did in fact meet and make a joint decision not to release the drawing odds but you somehow received ?bad or incorrect information.? Which is it? Personally, I would hope that neither SFW nor MDF were purposefully deceiving the public on this issue. That only leaves one possible explanation. With this in mind, your statement that follows seems fairly stubborn and arrogant: ?I will stand by what I said until it is made known to me that I was wrong or misinformed. I have no reason not to believe what I was told therefore I will stick to it.? See post #73.

Second, you state that you are not an officer of SFW. Well if that is the case, then perhaps you should update the SFW website because it lists you as an officer of the company responsible for marketing and fundraising. http://www.sfwsfh.org/index.cfm?pID=5 In any event, you admit that you are one of only a handful of paid employees of SFW. As a result, you should know what is going on within the organization, particularly when you voluntarily participate in a public discussion on a controversial issue. If you do not know what is going on then please don't pretend to speak on behalf of the organization. When I think of the faces of SFW, I think of Don, Byron, John, Ryan and you. It is hard for me to imagine that SFW would make a decision on an issue such as whether or not to release the Expo drawing odds and you would not be in the loop. You may not be the final decision maker, but you should know what was or was not decided.

Third, you state that you ?disagree with [my] assumption concerning the posting of the Unit Specific Odds.? I am not sure what assumption you are referring to in your post. I would be happy to respond if you would clarify what you are referring to.

Finally, you commend me for taking the time to go and meet with MDF and you state that ?a lot of people like to question things but never put forth the time or effort to find out the facts and truth.? While I appreciate the pat on the back, this entire issue could have been resolved months ago if you, Don, Byron or Ryan would have simply picked up the phone, called MDF and said, ?Hey, we really owe it to the general public to release the drawing odds as previously promised. Let's work together to make this happen.? Instead, SFW chose to back peddle on its prior commitment and then used MDF as its scapegoat. After taking time out of my personal schedule to prepare for and attend two separate meetings with SFW and MDF in the last year, the groups still have not released the drawing odds and I don't know if we are any closer to the ?facts or the truth? on the issue. The only substantive information that came out of my last meeting with MDF is (1) they completely denied your explanation as to why the odds were not being released; (2) they agreed to schedule a meeting with SFW to discuss the issue; and (3) they committed that in the event the groups decided not to release the drawing odds they would provide some legitimate explanation for their position. Frankly, SFW and MDF owe it to their members and the hunting public to get their houses in order and provide the level of transparency that should attend an organization that has been entrusted with 200 public tags that generate hundreds of thousands of dollars a year.

So here we sit in June of 2011, over a year from when we originally met and SFW agreed to release the drawing odds, and yet SFW still has not followed through on its promise. Rather than nitpicking at my posts and trying to save face, please use your time and influence to help SFW follow through on its prior commitments.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-01-11 AT 02:55PM (MST)[p]Jason,

In the prior post you stated "I was surprised to hear you say that you were "given bad information" on this issue.

This is not correct and is not what I said.
I have no problem with your latest post where you state. "With all due respect, that appears to be exactly what occurrred here."

This is your opinion and the conclusion you have drawn. I am fine with that. I am not okay with you twisting and putting words in my mouth like you did in the previous post!

I understand where you got the info concerning me being an officer in SFW. All this information will be updated with the start up of SFW's new website. Don Peay is a paid consultant and I am an employee niether of us are Officer's in the legal eninty of SFW.

If it seems stubborn or arrogant that I am sticking by what I beleive to be true so be it. Until it is proven to me otherwise I will not change my stance.

Like I have stated before Byron & Ryan represent SFW on the Expo. They are the ones that make the call's. Sure and opinion my be sought on certain topic's but in the end they are the one's that make the decisions.

When the question was first asked to release the Unit Specific Odds I was asked what my thoughts were. I said they should be posted.

I have not seen anywhere or anything that people have produced that state or show they have to be released.
It is my understanding that it is up to the respective groups to decide if they want to release them.

If infact MDF, SFW an& WSF agreed to do this in the begining would it not be on public record? Could not one do a grama request of the meetings to determine if this was the case? I think if it was the DWR would be the first to enforce this agreement.

In the meeting last year. It was not promised that the Unit Specific Odds would be posted.

SFW did agree that the odds would be posted as long as it was agreed to by our partner MDF.

Obvoisly we have conflicting stories from both side's. I still stand by what I was told!

I do believe we are closer to seeing the Unit Specific Odds. It would not surprise me to see both MDF&SFW come together on this issue.

Troy Justensen
 
Troy-

My recollection of the meeting last year is that SFW told the group that they would release the drawing odds. You, Don and the other SFW representatives that were present gave us all the impression that you would make it happen. I honestly do not remember anyone stating that SFW needed to get MDF?s permission to release the drawing odds. If this statement was made, I have no recollection of it. Moreover, I would guess that if you asked anyone that attended the meeting they would tell you they thought SFW made a commitment to release the drawing odds. Perhaps deerlove, llamapacker, dryflyguy and some of the others could chime in.

Why should I go to hassle of serving a GRAMA request on the State to Utah to confirm whether someone from SFW represented that in 2005-2006 that the drawing odds would be made public when I sat in a meeting you just last year and heard those very same statements come directly from you, Ryan, Byron and Don?

Stop blaming MDF for SFW?s failure to follow through on its commitment. I already called you on your bluff and went directly to MDF?s President/CEO and he confirmed that your story is not accurate. SFW and MDF made a joint decision to go back on SFW?s prior commitment to release the odds. If you, Don, Byron or anyone else dispute what Miles Moretti told me then step up and say so on the record. It is embarrassing to see SFW keep pointing its finger at its supposed partner when these issues could be resolved with a simple telephone call or meeting between Byron and Miles. The two conservation organizations should take the initiative on this issue rather than making excuses and asking members of the public to go jump through hoops while they pretend they don't know what is going on.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
I concur with everything Hawkeye has said here, and agree with him 100%. Thanks for your efforts in trying to keep these guys honest, or rather, as Roger Clemens once said, making sure they don't "misremember".

You'd think that with these kind of politics and mealy-mouthed, half hearted promises we're seeing here that we were in the middle of a heated election. When the lights shine bright and it's time to face the music, all stand tall and speak what they think the people want to hear. Once the party's over, however, how quickly the promises are forgotten.

My first thought is that when you see these types of behaviors, there is money on the line somewhere. Somebody is looking to protect their job or income stream. That's no different in this case. Nobody wants to show their hand and kill the golden goose they've got in the expo. There is just too much money at stake.

At the least, Hawk's diligence has let these guys know that they are being watched - now more than ever. We are all stewards of the wildlife around here, and we owe it to ourselves and our kids to make sure the resource is taken care of the way it should be.

</soapbox>
 
I agree with Hawkeye and Dryflyelk 100%. SFW made a commitment during the MM meeting at the University of Utah to release the unit specific odds. Yes, after the meeting, they backpedaled and said they would need MDF approval, which started Hawkeye down this long path to uncover the deception.

It is time for MDF and SWF to step up and honor the commitment to release the unit specific odds. Continued stubborness and arrogance on their part does not reflect well on the organization. Whie I generally respect Troy, the more he posts on this issue the more I am personally digging in and demanding release of the data.

I am e-mailing both organizations to personally go on record with my demand for this information. Non-profit groups must be held accountable to their members.

Bill
 
This has been a very interesting thread, especially since I have to consider myself an outsider on this topic living way over here in Michigan and am just going by what I'm reading in the various posts here. It seems to me that the big problem of a lack of transparency in these two organizations has been created just as much by the State of Utah as the organizations themselves. These game tags that are being raffled off at the Expo were released to the organizations on behalf of the taxpayers of Utah, were they not? It appears the purpose was to benefit conservation with the money the tags themselves make for the MDF and SFW. It also seems to be bringing other monies that are more than incidental to the State of Utah itself with thousands of people attending it as stated previously in a post. I guess my question is why wasn't all of the requirements of transparency covered in a written document and signed by all three parties when this venture started? It was mentioned in one post that the State has done only one audit since this program was instituted. It would seem like an annual audit would be done when talking about the vast sum of money that is taken in at this event. Also, it would seem that the State should have required that all money in excess of actual operational expenses be accounted for in an annual release by each organization showing each conservation project that was accomplished and what money was spent on it. My gut feeling is that this lack of willingness to open the books on the draw odds is just a small part of what may be some money going where it shouldn't be. Again, this is just my opinion and it may be way off base, but I can't fathom what other reason there would be for not being open and upfront with the public.
 
Topgun one thing you do not understand, nor do lots of Utahans, is the fact that the Utah Division of Wildlife is basically "owned" by Mr Peay. He basically owns its director, and has "arranged" the appointment of key "puppets" into positions where his "agenda" can be carried out.

ONLY IN UTAH COULD THIS HAPPEN!

Thanks Hawkeye for your persistence. It is appreciated.

Have a good one. BB
 
STALL.... BACKPEDAL.... B.S.

IF IT'S ALL GOOD POST THE ODDS AND WHAT OUR MONEY WAS SPENT ON...

WHATS THE PROBLEM??




2010 TOTALS
P.E.T.A. = 0 HUNTERS GONE
UTAH WILDLIFE BOARD = 13,000 HUNTERS GONE
 
Troy,

Glad your still here. First, to my friend from Michigan, Utah politics, of which DWR are part are basically a family buisness, you gotta know someone.

Now to Troy, your one of a "handful" of employees, so drop the dime, call Don and Byron, tell them to check this site and others and see that this drawing odds thing is the dumbest fight SFW could pick. We have seen posts from Don from time to time, so I know he knows the site, Byron can find it easy enough. If your to busy, give me the numbers I will do it. SFW has and is aquiring a very negetive image, and this odds thing is just an easy way for guys like me to beat on them. If SFW will go to the lengths they are going to avoid doing something this simple, and quite honestly easy, it does point to some lack of being in touch with the sportsmen of this state(which most of us have come to understand). Does SFW really think they will loose a bunch of money by posting the odds? Really? So SFW believes all the guys who put in are so damn dumb they don't understand that the odds aren't great. Troy, the reality is SFW IS GOING to post these odds at some point, if it is sooner rather than later they gain some positivity with the hunting public. If they spin, twist, turn, fight, cast blame, THEN post them they burn up good will.
We, the public, from whom SFW takes tags and supports itself(yes wildlife too, but your a PAID employee, that money comes from somewhere) asked for 2 things, odds and accountinng, SFW is 0-2, so why are you suprised we are not happy with SFW. Lastly, SFW can't put there books on line, they can't get who is an employee, and who is a consultant on there website. Perhaps SFW should get a Computer guy, and a few less " consultants", just a thought.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-03-11 AT 07:43AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jun-03-11 AT 07:41?AM (MST)

Jason,

SFW agreed in the meeting to post the odds, but added because we have a partner in the Expo SFW would have to get the approval of MDF first.

This is exactly what Ryan Foutz stated. Ryan is the one that addressed this topic. He also talked about the odds that are currently posted.The ones that have already been posted on this thread.
If you dont recall this then I am sorry that is exactly what was stated and agreed too by SFW.

That is what lead to our conversation at the Timp Archer's shoot. You me and John and I apologize but I cant remeber who was with you. Anyway both John and I recounted to you that Ryan Foutz had met with MDF and they did not grant their approval to have the Unit Specific Odds Posted.

I will stand by this because that is exactly what I was told and have no reason to not to believe what Ryan told me.

Do I agree with the decision? No. I have stated that from the begining. I am in favor of the odds being posted and will continue to work towards this happening.

I do not agree with the reasons being sited here, but see no reason or harm that would be done in providing this information to the public.

That being said I am aware of nothing, have not been shown anything that states that the groups involved have to release these odds.
If someone has such a document or factual proof please bring it to light.

Nick I agree with you. At some point I think these odds will be released. I hope sooner than later.

I posted in a prior thread that was nuked where SFW had spent nearly 1 million dollars of non-conservation permit money in the last three to four years.

When I get a minute I will post that again. Within a few months everything will be updated with the release of SFW's new website.

Troy Justensen
 
Tony Abbot was at the meeting when they 1st got the tags. What does he recall being said? Or does he know of the documents that states what SFW has to do with its odds/money reporting?

I would bet he knows what was said and done. He says he was there.
 
Troy-

I am not calling you a liar. I simply stated that I have no recollection of any such statement during our meeting last year. Dryflyguy and llamapacker, who were also both in attendance at the meeting, have also confirmed that they do not recall any such statement. Regardless, isn't the issue of whether or not Ryan Foutz conditioned SFW?s release of the drawing odds on SFW obtaining MDF?s approval moot at this point? Just last week Miles Moretti, President/CEO of MDF, told me face-to-face that MDF is not preventing SFW from releasing the drawing odds. Rather, SFW met with MDF and decided jointly that it did not want to honor its prior commitment. If that is the case then why is SFW still blaming MDF and relying Ryan's alleged statement at our meeting last year? The facts seem pretty clear that after our meeting SFW flip-flopped and made a decision not to release the odds.

I have never stated that SFW is required by law to release the drawing odds. Rather, I have stated that SFW has an obligation to the general public to be transparent and to honor its prior commitments. Unfortunately there is no statutory requirement that SFW or MDF must release the actual tag-by-tag drawing odds. Nor is there any statutory requirement that SFW or MDF spend one dime generated from those tags on actual conservation projects. Nor is there a requirement that SFW or MDF render any public accounting for the funds generated therefrom. Nor is there a requirement that the State of Utah conduct an annual audit of monies generated from these permits. Frankly, I am shocked that the State of Utah and the DWR would turn over 200 tags without building in any protections or checks and balances into the system. In any event, the fact that the state has been derelict in its duties and the statute does not require any level of transparency does not relieve of SFW or MDF from answering to the general public. They are, after all, stewards of a public resource.

IF SFW and MDF want to play the blame game and dig in their heels until enough pressure builds to change the law and require some level of accountability and transparency, so be it. I think we as the hunting public owe it to ourselves and our children to make sure that our public resources are being properly utilized. Frankly, I think both groups would be much better off to simply step up take some initiative and responsibility?even if the state is not requiring them to do so. As a former member of both SFW and MDF, this entire process has been very disappointing.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-03-11 AT 10:37AM (MST)[p]Hawkeye,

I appreciate your passion and trying to get better accountabliity with the expo tags. However, knowing the odds really won't change much. It may generate less money. Which is what Tony A. and a few other haters want. People will still go for a chance to draw a great hunt. Even if it's a long chance. Most of the tags go to average guys, not the rich.

The expo has helped our state leaders realize how important hunting and wildlife is to our state. The 200 tags were not taken away from the public. Most of the tags are drawn by the ave hunter. The problem is according to some, is you need to support the expo for a chance at these tags. Another problem according to some is we need to know where all the money is going? I believe it would be better to have more accountablility as well. On the same note,I don't know where all the money is going to from all the tags that the DWR issue in the general draw either.

I do know that before SFW was around, some money from our hunting and fishing license went to fund non game species. Big game hunting was going in the wrong dirrection. One of the DWR past dirrectors, didn't have big game hunting as a priority. Can you believe that? Ranchers wanted to cut elk herds, over 200K general deer permits were issued, with poor buck to doe ratios. The DWR said we will always have enough hunters, because hunting is a family tradition. Many states have had hunting and trapping privelges taken away.

Utah has gained privleges, with a spring bear hunt. Utah is doing more habitat and wildlife projects than any other western state.

I know some of these things, because a family member worked as a C.O. for the DWR for over 30 years. I know some of the crap that was going on. At one time I thought about a career as a CO or bioligist. I have been involved with wildlife groups for many years.

Part of this post is about accountability. Tony A. and others, some of his friends, are mad that there isn't enough accountability. There should be more. It has also been pointed out that Tony was part of getting the expo started. This is very hard for Tony. It is obvious, after reading his other post and comments during the past year. He is out of the expo loop and no longer managing conservation tags from MDF. Some of this money was used to pay him for his services. His services were no longer needed or wanted from these two groups. Tony and others have hard feelings concerning individuals and leadership that is making expo decisions.

There are some hunters who want more opportunity and some more quality. It's good to have a balance. We don't all agree.

If I didn't know personally, and participated in many meetings over the years to try to make things better for all hunters, with Don, Ryan, Troy, Byron,and others involved, I might be concerned more about things like expo money accountability. I'm not. I don't blame others who are. I think more info is coming.

THIS POST IS NOT JUST ABOUT GENERAL EXPO DRAW ODDS WHICH ARE NOW AVAILABLE, AND THE NEED FOR SPECIFIC ODDS.

Do you think the people who donate to PETA know where all there money is going to? I would guess, that most of them think they are helping animals. Not paying lawyers to take away hunting and trapping privleges. They and other groups, want to expand wolf populations so we won't need hunting. They want more federal regulations and loop holes.

I agree, non residents have lost some general season permits. They also have a better chance than residents to draw some expo tags. I don't agree with everything happening in Utah. Every state has there own issues and problems.

I certinly don't agree that the expo has taken permits away from the general public. How many permits have ID,MT, and WY lost with current wolf populations? I have hunted in those states. How many permits have hunters lost from Loss of habitat, or habitat that has no value for wildlife? How many permits have we lost from excessive predators? What about sportsmen access,school trust lands, national monuments, ranching/wildlife conflicts, etc? How many permits will we loose from future development? If we don't fight and try to resolve the above issuesn where will our future be?

How are we going to generate enough money to make a difference to fight the above problems? Which groups are fighting these issues? I don't have all the answers.

Don't forget the big picture, when it comes to our future of hunting, which we all love to do on this site.

Just a few thoughts.

Greg
 
Greg,

The issue has moved beyond how the odds will affect my application stategy, or anybody else's stategy, etc.

SFW promised the odds when they met with a concerned group of UT hunters over a year ago. They later back-tracked and blamed their partner, MDF. Through Hawkeye's diligence, we have MDF saying it wasn't them alone, SFW did not want to release the odds either. SFW is not keeping their promise and trying to blame their partner. They have gone to a lot of effort to resist releasing the data.

When non-profit groups are this concerned about releasing data which should clearly be public, all sorts of conspriacy theories are likely to be created. Accountability is the only way forward....

SFW and MDF need to release the unit specific draw off for all Expo tags and let the chips fall where they may.

Bill
 
Just for the record, here is my theory on why they won't release the draw odds. It is a completely different take than I have seen posted here, and could easily be just as wrong...

I think the draw odds are actually better than most believe. Especially for the non-resident tags. I don't think SFW cares what the residents learn about the tag odds. Residents are a captive audience. I think they are concerned that the legislature will see from the NR odds that the Expo is not really an effective tourism tool for the state. Remeber the tags were given to the expo, and the requirement for winners to validate on site, so as to drive additional tourism dollars to the state. The tags were sold as an economic development tool, not just to give tags to lucky hunters. When the odds show that only "X" non-residents came to the state and validated their applications, the legislature will pull the plug on this boon-doggle in a heartbeat. The vast, vast majority of the participants are residents, or vendors already coming to the show to promote their offerings. I believe very, very few additional tourism dollars are driven to the state by the Expo. Even though it is a good hunting show, afterall.

Once the odds are posted, the data will be available for our elected officials to evaluate. As it is, they are hoodwinked by the PR machine of SFW, and don't have any objective method to judge the success of this legislation.
Bill
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-03-11 AT 11:25AM (MST)[p]Greg-

I appreciate your well thought out comments and welcome a civil discussion on the issue. I agree that SFW, MDF and the other conservation groups have done many good things. I am not a hater who ignores anything positive from these groups or has an axe to grind with Don or the other individuals involved. Nor am I an Expo hater that is looking to shut down the expo. In fact, I generally attend the Expo each year, and I actually drew a tag at the Expo in 2008 and had a memorable hunt. I do, however, think that we should hold these groups accountable for the resources they are entrusted with and the commitments they have made.

I agree that we would all probably be shocked if we saw how the DWR spent some of the funds generated from the general license sales. However, I think we care comparing apples and oranges. The DWR is a governmental agency and is subject to numerous laws and controls, including public disclosure laws. SFW and MDF are private corporations that are supposed to be promoting wildlife conservation. If we as a state make a decision to take 200 tags that would otherwise be available in the public draw and turn them over to two private corporations then I think we should also impose certain check and balances and protections. From what I have seen, these are not currently in place. Is that SFW?s or MDF?s fault? Not entirely. However, these groups lobbied for these tags and had a significant say in what would be required of them in return. Just because the state is not mandating transparency and accountability does not mean that the groups cannot provide that information voluntarily.

As stated previously, SFW and MDF have done and are doing many good things for wildlife. I also think that Don, Byron, Ryan, John and Troy are generally good guys. However, that does not get them a free pass on these issues. I have heard numerous people say that increased transparency and information is forthcoming. My question is when? We were told over a year ago that the actual drawing odds would be released. When? I was told last week that MDF and SFW would get together and make a decision on this issue. I hope that happens sooner rather than later. There is simply no reason why these groups cannot improve their transparency and accountability, and still fight for the issues you mention in your post. I don't believe that these two positions are mutually exclusive. In fact, I truly believe that increased transparency and accountability will only strengthen the support for these groups.

Thank you for your thoughts Greg. I believe that we are both fighting for what we believe in and frankly we are not that far apart.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
Greg,

Good post but I think you are still missing the point. When someone promises to do something, they should follow through.

We know the odds suck, but people still play the lottery and spends thousands of $. I know if the odds are like "1 in 1000 or more like 1 in a 1,000,000?" I would say "So your telling me I have a chance!" (Jim Carey, Dumb and Dumber)

Either way I would do it. And I know that almost everyone would too. You might get a few drop out but people might say those are better odds than they thought and do put in. I think it is a wash!
 
Good comments as well,Hawkeye, Lamapacker, and Robiland.

Maybe the odds for non residents are better than expected. The expo still gets a lot of PR and has brought more attention and value to hunting, habitat, and sportsmen issues. This is needed when less than 10% of Utahs population hunts, and our representatives and government officials have a lot of say to money spent at the DWR and hunting related activities.

More accountability should be coming. I agree we need some checks and balances.

Some want the expo to fail. Some want SFW and MDF to fail. We need a lot of support and funding from our elected leaders to protect and support our future as sportsmen. MY COMMENTS WERE TO THEM. We always need to look at the big picture. What is going to happen 5,10, and 20 years down the road. We have a lot of issues and problems that need to be solved now and in the future. We need groups that will fight for us, and have the know how to make a difference.

I believe the groups involved with the expo are fighting for those rights,and the big picture things, even though I may not agree with everything they do.

Greg
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-03-11 AT 07:04PM (MST)[p]Don, Byron and Myself (who was the GM for the MDF at the time and running the group) traveled the state racs and the wildlife board at least 2 different time representing what the expo and the tags would be used for, how they would benefit UTAHS wildlife and that we would put a "significant" amount of money on the ground in Utah, account for the money generated and POST the actual draw odds of the expo tags.

The only part of that agreement that is open for debate is what does "significant" amount to. In my mind it was greater than 50% of what we raised, but no specific amount was agreed upon other than significant.

NOw this is not disputable as I was one of the 3 that made these promises while trying to create and expo and the tags that went with it.

Also when I ran the MDF the money that was generated off of the expo tags that was MDF's portion was put in an account to generate income off of the funds and was not used for my salary or anyone elses. That amount of money was approximately $300,000 the 1st year. I was not privy to the funds the 2nd year as I had hired Miles to be the CEO and he was in charge of the money.

All I want is what was promised by me, Don and BYron and understood by FNAWS. That is all I am asking for. I am not asking for the tags to go away, be reduced or specified in any other way other then to make good on our VERBAL agreement.

Now some will say where is it in writing and show me the agreement. Well to them I say a man or a group or an organization is only as good as their word.

If I was still running the MDF the Draw odds, the amount of money raised and the amount spent on Utahs wildlife would be published and printed every year following the expo.

Those of you trying to spin this into something else need to stop. This is about fulfilling an agreement, nothing more and nothing less.

The name calling and such is not what this is about. This is about transparency and in my opinion if the groups are doing as what was agreed than they should have no problem delivering what is asked for. If they won't deliver then it continues to look bad and leaves things open for speculation.





Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
The next buck to have a fawn will be the
1st.
 
Thanks Hawkeye,

I was at the same meeting and I have been following this issue ever since. My recollection of the events is exactly as has been stated by all other participants.

I am glad that you are able to put this kind of attention to this issue and please let me know if there is anything specific I can do to help (other than the obvious of writing reps, etc.).

This issue is solely about transparency and following through with promises made.

Still waiting!!!

And Troy - You are closer than anyone of us to the root of this issue. If you truly stand by what you say and believe they should be posted then do something about it and stop passing the buck!
 
Robert Service wrote a line, in his poem (The Cremation of Sam Mc Gee) that could not say it any better!

He wrote, "A promise made, is a debt unpaid!"

If each of us would live our lives, with that saying as a creed, we would all be better served, as would SFW, the MDF and Utah?s Sportsmen.

Thanks again to all who push for accountability.

Have a good one. BB
 
Transparency and keeping promises made are really the only issues here.

For those who say odds are not important enough to worry about, that is good news! Lets save the state lots of money as they are looking at ways to cut the budget. Do away with ALL the regular odds info since it is not important. Guess we don't really need to know the odds of drawing limited entry units in the regular draw, do we?

Where big sums of money are involved and no accountablitiy/transparency is provided, there is ALWAYS misdirection of funds, just the nature of the beast. Them telling us we don't need to know because they will take good care of those funds because they care so much for wildlife, is like the goverment telling us we really don't need those guns because they will protect us.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 

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