Round Two of Forclosures?

[huntindude]

Anyone watch 60 Minutes last night? if these guys are right and I think they are we are in a world of hurt.

If we have about as many defaults to come as we've seen so far how much good will the 700 billion we've given the banks do and what will it require for round two? we may not be able to avoid a depression, this is some serious stuff here.

 

[Forthewall]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-15-08 AT 11:34AM (MST)[p]I mentioned this on one of Eelg's post. Every depression has been caused to cheap money and land grabs. Even if the real estate market stabilizes there are still the question of ghost sellers.

Ghost sellers being those barely holding on financially that are waiting for market stabilization before selling their homes. This will cause a double bounce in inventory resulting in a continued weak housing market.

Our government has been pumping trillions into the economy which might just result in a Veimar Depression. This is going to be very ugly after the holidays when FM/FrMc end the temporary foreclosure freeze.

 

[NeMont]

An yet you support spending more money on the Auto industry? We cannot spend our way out of this, period.

We have had at least 10 years of excess and somebody has to pay for it.

Nemont

 

[huntindude]

Agreed, but shutting down our industry isn't a place to start. how do you propose we climb our way out of it borrowing money from China to buy Chinese junk? you never answer that one.

We are in BIG trouble no question, but giving up isn't an option or a solution.

My point in this thread is would we have given the banks this money if we had known the trouble was just begining? would even another 700 billion solve it? or should we forget them and spend the money from the bottom up like some said in the first place? all I know is if these guys are right we only think the proverbial substance has hit the fan already.

Yes I do support the auto bailout, 3 million jobs is a place to start.

 

[cmiddleton]

go buy new trucks tractors and farm equipment then huntin dude.
things are not being sold is the auto industries problem.
make cars and trucks that are priced like cars and trucks houses that are priced like houses not estates.
when trucks are priced like a house and houses are priced so your grand children wouldn't live long enough to pay it off and the "i have to have it now generation" keeps buying and the banks keep lending you end up with a long run on sentence like this one then it will crumble backwards
no truck is worth over 15,000 no car over 12,000 no 2000 sq ft house is worth over 120,000 vacant land is worth 1000 a acre forested and 500 farm-able.
anything more is market driven and is not a buyers market.
buy low sell high needs to be taught in the schools
if people stop buying the price go's down. the banks and realtors caused this mess.

 

[huntindude]

The banks, realtors and stupid buyers caused this mess but we're all caught up in it .

The question now that matters is what do we as a nation do about it? I know what I'm going to do myself and with farm prices in the tank I'm not going to buy near as much equipment for depreciation as I had planned on.

Did you know there are no USA produced tractors under 160 HP made anymore? and only John Deere makes one from 160 up domestically. is this what we want our auto industry to look like? even if I go buy a new rake tractor the longshoremen who unloaded it off the ship and the few bucks the dealer who sold it to me made would be the only money an american saw out of it and I take a full right off paying no taxes on the French made Challenger, great economics huh? have Nemont explain why this is best for us because I can't.

Back to the bank bailout, will ARM and NINJNA loans make what we've already given the banks a waste? if so can we avoid a depression? from what I heard I don't see how, but we could save some of the money promised to the banks yet to be given out if we know they are doomed.

 

[NeMont]

have
>Nemont explain why this is
>best for us because I
>can't.

You are misquoting me I never said anything of the sort. I said what is best is to let companies fail and let the competent people gain control of those assets that the incompetent could not succeed with. You take that to mean "give up", I mean never give up. Economics and markets work when they are allowed to. The current mess is not a result of unregulated capitalism, it is a result of over regulated capitalism and intervention by the Fed and Treasury into lending standards and other areas that they should have never gone. Now somehow you think that it is Americas fault for not building the tractors you want right here in America. That is not logical at all. You really need to read some economics learn about what capitalism means.


Why are tractors under 160 hp made here? How can the French build these tractors. I will give you hint if you have ever been to France or anywhere in Europe that is about all they sell. Do you suppose they may have an advantage making tractors that are going to sell in their local market because demand for their product remains there?

We cannot spend our way out this and to continue on the path we are will only mean more foreign made vehicles, cheap crap and other inported goods not less. By bailing out companies we are making them less competitive not more competitive and repeating the mistakes made in the past by other countries. It won't work and it is only making the problem worse by running up STRAGGERING amounts of debt that will do nothing in the long run to make our country build anything here.

If you want to reindustrialize America there are many things the government could do but neither party is willing to actually do those things.

Building something outside the U.S. is not a "bad" thing or even bad economics. What is bad economics is throwing good money after bad at an industry where the fundementals are highly impaired. Give the auto industry their money and the financial system, and who ever else wants a bail out. All this you will accomplish is to make this country exactly what you say you don't want: broke, uncompetive and a third world pauper. That is what is coming if we continue no amount of borrowing and spending, taxing and spending will stop it. Obama will not be albe to stop, the democrats or republicans won't stop as long as the solutions is to throw money and nationalize businesses nothing will stop it. In 5 years we will have pi$$ed away the greatest country all because nobody was willing to do what had to be done.

Bad times are ahead, there will be a false rally when all this newly printed money cycles through the system, another bubble will appear. It looks like U.S. treasuries are in the begining of a bubble but when it bursts then don't whine to me that something has to done. We will have already missed out chance to have a much shorter time of economic pain. It didn't have to be but that is what is going to happen. Just wait until our debt is no long as attractive to the rest of the world, nothing will be built here for a very long time.

Nemont

 

[huntindude]

The problem is you assume when the big 3 go broke some other entity will step in and scoop them up or even start over and fill the void, are you sure this is going to be the case? what about tractors for example, now JD and AGCO are it, choose any make you want but it's going to be an AGCO product unless it's green. JD is able to compete with AGCO because the lack of competition in the marketplace means AGCO can jack the prices up and JD can compete. so when all american made products are gone and we're dependent on imports are you sure they'll still give us the good guy deal? I don't.

You seem to have more heartburn over a few billion to save american auto makers than 700 billion to save banks I don't get that, do you think the second wave of forclosures will void the 700 billion we've already blown? if so do we pump more into banks and will we be able to borrow it?

We do agree on one thing, we're in for a long hard ride.

 

[piper]

Im in for long hard ride, neither one of you two are, both of your businesses are in a good position because both are essential. Dude has a point, I wouldn't bet on any companys taking over domestic auto manufacturing, the cost of living is just to high in this country for the workers and building better mouse traps is getting harder to accomplish. We aren,t willing to lower our standard of living enough to compete with some of the big new manufacturing countrys and we aren't able to run as efficiently in a lot of ways as the European countrys, despite the fact that we work on average more hours and take less vacation on average and have a country with a lot of resources, its not enough. our military spending, our huge prison population, our inefficient health care system and a greedy upper class are big factors in this mess

 

[Spencer]

We are the Roman Empire of modern times and America has changed. We won't ever be what we were and we are quickly becoming a socialist country. I hate that my children, and their children, will never know what it was like for this country to be the best in the world.

Scott
Member: RMEF, SCI, and NRA

 

[huntindude]

Spencer I hate to admit it but you're right, I like to imply I think we can climb our way back to where we used to be just to be a good sport but I know better. the national debt, number of unproductive people we now have and our willingness to import everything we can save one cent on rather producing ourselves leave no chance of real hope.

An older hunting buddy told me a while back that our parents told us how tough it was back in their day, and kids being born today will be told by their parents how good things used to be.

No great empire last forever and we've had a great run, I think with proper direction and sacrifice it's far from over and we can survive but we may have to accept going back to the days of excess is just not a realistic goal. if we decide we want to compete with 3rd world countries head to head it's not only unrealistic it's ignorant to expect a high standard of living.

 

[Forthewall]

Gentlemen, as Americans we are considered to be home-run hitters. Every home-run hitter has from time to time been caught in a slump.

This is by no means the end of an era or the end of a legacy. This pesimistic sentiment was wide-spread during Carter and affected the entire national morale.

We are a Great Nation and we will get past this economic downturn. We cannot and should not fill ourselves with doubt
and skepticism. Like the generations before us that have over-come economic collapse, fuel shortages, bank failures, and world wars we will survive and prosper.

Why? Because we are Americans and we simply KICK-ASS!

It's true we have mounted the pooch on many fronts, fallen asleep at the wheel, and in some cases simply failed. However, unlike other countries we as Americans will change the current status quo and restore our home-run hitting status once again.

Tomorrow is a new day, it's up to all of us to make it better than yesterday. We'll get there it will just take a little time.

 

[NeMont]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-16-08 AT 11:28AM (MST)[p]HD,

I can only go with economic theory and what history has taught us about recessions and depressions. Even in the great depression this country produced goods and sold goods. Competent people who saw what was happening in the late 1920's were able to make vast fortunes in the doldrums of the early and mid 1930's. This pattern has repeated itself in every major economic downturn in our nations history, in fact world history.

To assume that all the auto plants and all the talent assembled to make autos would not be put either bought up or absorbed by other car companies , at a steep discount no doubt, but bought up just the same, is not looking at history. Bankruptcy would actually mean that either a successor company or the current company reorganized and with new liquidity would indeed produced vehicles. In addition they would be newly streamlined and efficient companies that could compete. Look at the Delta airlines bankruptcy and reorganization. There is still a Delta Airlines.

I have more heartburn about the $6 to $7 TRILLION the Fed has put the taxpayers and my children and grandchildren on the hook for then I do about the auto workers bailout. The Fed won't even tell congress who borrowed $2 TRILLION. The $700 billion dollar bailout for the financial sector is also going to just be money Pi$$ed away, it will not solve any problems other then how big of a bonus people will be getting.

AIG, CITIbank, Wachovia etc, etc are no more right then Detroit getting a bailout. Now we, the taxpayers, own stock in companies that can only compete if given more taxpayer money. Look at AIG.

Again two wrongs don't make a right. I believe that it was you who insisted that the majority rules in this country and that like it or not the majority will get it's way, well guess what the majority opposes bailing out the auto industry. Do you know why the majority feel this way? It is because alot of people making $40,000 to $50,000 don't feel they should bailout workers making $85,000 or CEO's making millions and giving us vehicles we no longer want. I know you still want a gas guzzler but the average Joe is leery of the gas guzzler because they believe gas will go back up in price.

These companies and the country would be better off in the long run to let them enter bankruptcy, reoranize, downsize and emerge competetive or purchased and recapitalized. I know you don't believe that but I think the economic history of our country argues differently. Look at what happened when Truman attempted to nationalize the steel industry, the Supreme Court Ruled that it was UnConstitutional for the government to nationalize the steel industry even if the president says it is a time of national emergency. What is the Constitutional basis for using taxpayer money to nationalize that Auto industry and the Financial sector. Unless you believe the Founders got it wrong and that the Federal Government can indeed do what they are doing under the Constitution. If so what limits are on our government, if they can do this why can't they also seize private property to build an auto plant on? Or demand you sign over some of your land in return for any payment you recieve from the federal government? Just a thought. What would be different then demanding AIG give stock to the government in return for taxpayer money, if they demanded part of your farm for any further subsidy?

I come down on the side of limited government intervention in all cases and on what is in the Constitution. Find the Constitutional basis for an auto company bailout and I will listen.

Nemont

 

[NeMont]

FTW,

I am curious to here your solution to this crisis is. It is great to cheerlead but cheerleaders stand on the sidelines and just react to what the players are doing. What do you believe the players should be doing in order for American to "kick A$$" again?

Nemont

 

[huntindude]

Nemont the reason you're opposed to the auto worker bailout as you call it is the same reason so many people are, you think it's all about the worker. what if like Buffett says we make all parties feel a little pain including the CEO's if they want to keep their job? I'm not advocating giving the automakers cash to do as they please with and I don't think that's going to be the plan. you're against even helping the car makers without hearing the plan for fear the UAW might get a bone, that's not good business.

Who wants to buy a car from a bankrupt company? who is going to buy up the scraps and try to form a new company? the last group that tried that are the Canadians who bough Chrysler and they're the worst off of all three so don't count on it. you keep going back to historical lessons, when in history have we been this deep in debt and had such agressive and unregulated foreign competition? yoiu're comparing apples with Tuesday.

 

[NeMont]

So your theory is that since we are so far in debt more debt will cure the problems. That does nothing to solve the structural problems of the auto industry it just moves us further into debt. You don't like borrowing from China but where do you thing the auto bailout money is going to come from?

Some company would purchase assets out of bankruptcy or a new company would be formed or the old company would be reformed. That is just a fact, now whether or not the falter is another story. Chrysler is an example of a company that should probably be either absorbed or shut down or sold off to a more competent owner.

I don't want the UAW workers to lose their jobs but that is the reality of the situation. I am not against the workers in the UAW I am against their leadership, their leadership is as guilty as the CEO's when it comes to being over paid and under performing. But here in the real world when one works for a business that is struggling the workers lose their jobs, that is just reality. Now the UAW is saying that their jobs are more important then my job or your job and anyone else jobs because so many rely on the revenue these jobs create. Well I am sorry but spending taxpayer money to subsidize these jobs and taking that money from many, many taxpayers who are making less is immoral and bad public policy. Perhaps it is because you have no children that you see this a necessary use of taxpayer dollars?

Who want to buy a car from a bankrupt company, I don't really care about that because right now not many people want to buy a car from an uncompetitive company. Explain how this money is going to make these companies compete better. All their legacy costs remain in place as do all their current costs for materials and components. This is just prolonging the inevitable.

What Buffet is saying is that he would force a deal just like a deal he would make if he were buying a company. He believes bankruptcy is wasteful I guess that is his opinion. In addition he states that 3 million jobs won't be lost, that only the president of the U.S. can achieve this and that if you don't have a viable business plan that makes sense we will be giving money every year to these companies. He says there are only two ways to go either bankruptcy or a bailout, and he argues for a bailout. Here is his interview.

http://dahhuilaudavid.blogspot.com/2008/11/fox-business-warren-buffett-on-auto.html

Again find the Constitutional basis for the President of the U.S. to be making such a deal. Buffet can make business sense out of such a deal. Also ask yourself this question: Why isn't he putting his billion into such a deal? He is famous for buying undervalued companies, he hasn't made major purchases of auto companies stocks, so he has no skin in the game. Why do you suppose that is?

Can you find an Auto Company Stock in the holding of Berkshire-Hathaway? Berkshire Hathaway Inc holdings, (NYSE: BRK-A)for the Quarter ended on June 30, 2008

-American Express Co. (NYSE: AXP) over 151.6 million shares.
-Anheuser Busch Cos. Inc. (NYSE: BUD) taken to under 15 million shares from over 35 million shares on last report
-Bank of America Corp. (NYSE: BAC) 9.1 million shares
-Burlington Northern Santa Fe (NYSE: BNI) 63,785,418 shares
-Carmax Inc. (NYSE: KMX) 21.3 million shares
-Coca Cola (NYSE: KO) roughly 200 million shares
-Comcast (NASDAQ: CMCSA) 12 million shares
-Comdisco Holdings (CDCO) over 1.5 million shares
-Costco Wholesale (NASDAQ: COST) 5.254 million shares
-Gannett Co. (NYSE: GCI) 3.447 million shares
-General Electric Corp. (NYSE: GE) 7.777 million shares
-GlaxoSmithkline (NYSE: GSK) 1.51 million shares
-Home Depot Inc. (NYSE: HD) 4,181,000 shares
-Ingersoll-Rand (NYSE: IR) 5,636,600 shares
-Iron Mountain (NYSE: IRM) 3,372,200 shares
-Johnson & Johnson (NYSE: JNJ) listed about 61.75 million shares in multiple lots
-Kraft Foods (NYSE: KFT) listed about 138.3 million shares in multiple lots
-Lowes Companies (NYSE: LOW) 7 million shares
-M&T Bank Corp. (NYSE: MTB) 6.71 million shares
-Moody's (NYSE: MCO) 48 million shares
-Nike Inc. (NYSE: NKE) 7.641 million shares
-Norfolk Southern (NYSE: NSC) 1.933 million shares
-NRG Energy (NYSE: NRG) 3.238 million shares
-Procter & Gamble (NYSE: PG) more than 105.8 million shares
-Sanofi Aventis (NYSE: SNY) more than 3.9 million shares
-Sun Trust Bank (NYSE: STI) more than 3.2 million shares
-Torchmark Corp. (NYSE: TMK) more than 3.51 million shares in multiple lots
-US Bancorp (NYSE: USB) more than 68 million shares in multiple lots
-USG Corp. (NYSE: USG) 17.07 million shares
U-nion Pacific Corp. (NYSE: UNP) 8.9 million shares
-United Parcel Service (NYSE: UPS) 1.429 million shares
-WABCO Holdings (NYSE: WBC) 2.7 million shares
-Wal-Mart Stores inc. (NYSE: WMT) over 19.9 million shares in multiple lots
-Washington Post (NYSE: WPO) over 1.72 million shares in multiple lots
-Wells Fargo (NYSE: WFC) over 290 million shares in multiple lots
-Wellpoint Inc. (NYSE: WLP) 4.8 million shares
-Wesco Financial Corp. (NYSE: WSC) 5.7 million shares

Nemont

 

[Forthewall]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-16-08 AT 04:35PM (MST)[p]"I can only go with economic theory and what history has taught us about recessions and depressions. Even in the great depression this country produced goods and sold goods. Competent people who saw what was happening in the late 1920's were able to make vast fortunes in the doldrums of the early and mid 1930's. This pattern has repeated itself in every major economic downturn in our nations history, in fact world history."

The above is your answer and mine as to why we will recover!

It's not kick-ass again, that infers that we are not kicking-ass now.

To continue to kick-ass we must admit our failures and stop the newly invented process of failing upwards. We must restore security and integrity to our financial markets. The time has come to change our political election system and take private money out of campaigns.

We have to reverse the failed policies of the last 8 years, and in some cases the last 28 years. The congress must take action through new legislation to reform the current market inequities in NAFTA. We must embrace fair free trade and deny unfair unscrupulous monetary policies which affect our manufacturing base and middle class.

A totally secured southern border would allow the possibity of a final amnesty which will strengthen our federal tax base. Then deport all non-U.S. citizens from our prison system in cases other than homicide. Non-U.S. citizens found guilty of homicide should go to the front of the line for death sentences without appeal. The result of downsizing the prison populations will save the states and tax-payers billions in prison costs.

Stimulus packages should not come in the form of a check, but reduced federal payroll taxes and federal fuel taxes. English must be embraced as our national language to promote assimilation and national unity. Legalize drugs and switch it out of the legal system and into the taxable medical system. This will curtail the reign of druglords, produce taxes, and keep our prison system manageable.

Our military budget, not personnel must be reduced by 50% over the next 5 years. We must disavow policies of nation building and establish a tri-lateral military and humanitarian commission between Russia, China, and the United States outside of the U.N.

The fact is we will never invade Russia or China and they will never invade us. 3rd world disputes, genocide, starvation, plague, violent policital unrest, can all be addressed jointly including military action.

I can go on but it would require to much reading. If you want more just ask!

As for cheerleading, maybe, but I would rather stand on the sidelines and cheer, than to be a player on the field that doesn't have enough heart to give a 100% or a spectator that has already accepted a loss before the game is over.

 

[Forthewall]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-16-08 AT 04:47PM (MST)[p]Because I love to read my own writing and torture others let me just add a few more thingies.

The time has come to strip corporations of certain legal protections, political acccess, and tax loopholes. Corporations should no longer be able to defer taxes thru 10-31's or other current tax deferred vehicles. Those luxuries are now only for individuals, sorry.

It's true we have the 2nd highest corporate tax rate, but we also have the most corporate tax vehicles to defer taxable profit. Just check and see how much Chevron or Apple paid in corporate taxes.

The U.S. has 2nd highest corporate tax rate globally, but not the 2nd highest pay-out of corporate taxed dollars. I think we are something like 26th globally, I should check so please somebody take me task on the number if is not correct.

When corporations enjoy more legal protections, politcal access, and tax preference than individual American citizens, the result is white collar crime, loss of jobs, and a skewed political system or what we have seen in the last several decades. Corporate political influence has corrupted our judicial system leaving corporation with more protection and consumers, employees, and investors with less.

Energy producers must have uniformed agreements with all energy producing states on drilling royalties instead of individual state agreements. If oil is considered a national security resource than it's agreements should be shared across the board to energy producing states.

In turn, this will aid states like California which are in a current financial crisis. This would lead to states being less likely to lean on federal grant monies.

It's time to close the door on the Military Industrial Complex that have been sucking our spending dry. Downsizing military spending by 50% over the next 5 years at 10% annually, not personnel, just wasteful and useless spending on stupid projects that cost billions, are outdated, and only serve as military industrial welfare.

Here's how we work with what we have to immediately generate more tax revenue, without sacrificing services or lessening our ability to defend the nation.

Downsize military spending by 50%, 10% annually over 5 years.

Change NAFTA which will bring back manufacturing and jobs

Legalize Drugs

Actually have corporations pay, just like we do.

Iron-clad secured border & English as official language/Amnesty

Uniformed energy producer/state agreements.

Beware of any sentence that starts with, "Find me a constitutional basis for...", when it comes to our current
social structure.

O.K. I'm good, that oughta about do it! Many thingies I have outlined can be done with a simple stroke of a pen.

 

[NeMont]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-16-08 AT 02:53PM (MST)[p]So our Constitution is just a piece of paper?

You can tax the corporations all you want that isn't the reason for the current crisis.

Our tax policy encourages consumption, is penalizes savings and therefore that is what you get. That is what lead to this diasaster, Cheap money created by the fed and the false economy it lead to.

States have every right to swing the best deal that they can for royalties, period. The energy producers can go pound sand if they do not wish to play by the rules of which ever state they are doing business in. Less government not more government.

NAFTA is not going to be changed because the people who brought us NAFTA are back in the new administration. That is a giant red-herring, the democrats are not going to change it and if they do change it will end worse then the POS it already is. How about scap NAFTA and just start over.

We tried downsizing our military in the 1990's, do you remember the peace dividend? It lead to us be unprepared to fight a war in Iraq and Afghanistan. Both of which will still be occupying our military through Obama's first Administration. That is not going to happen, ever see what happens when there is a proposal to close a military base anywhere in the U.S.? Doesn't matter if the senator or congressman from that district is a peace loving hippy they will fight tooth and nail to keep it open. Good luck.

Where do corporations get their money to pay these taxes you propose? It is a pass through to them.

Beware of anybody who doesn't first see what is constitutional and what the Founder believe in. America will never kick a$$ again if you ignore what the Founders wrote.

Legalized drugs, I don't have an opinion one way or the other.

I choose to be involved in the game 100% and committed to being the best I can be and the best citizen I can be. rather then cheerlead.

Being in the game also requires one to take stock of what actually is happening and not what you think is happening. In order to move forward you have to realize where you are starting from. Cheerleaders arrive at the game with no plan other then yell really loud, player arrive with a game plan, a way to execute the plan and belief that it can be accomplished.

Nemont

 

[woodruffhunter]

"We won't ever be what we were and we are quickly becoming a socialist country. I hate that my children, and their children, will never know what it was like for this country to be the best in the world"

That has got to be the most pathetic comment I have ever read on this site.

 

[piper]

Forthewall - you are going into detail about a lot of changes that would really help this country, it really is time for the US to start maturing, the days of cheap land and some of the other freedoms we used to have are over, gone forever, just like the good old days of mule deer hunting, or like a beautiful ex lover, no matter how bad you want to you can't get them back. Nemont- I don't think cutting the military budget a little after the cold war affected our performance in Afghanistan or Iraq, have you listened to Eisenhowers speech where he talks about the military industrial complex? small government is good and Im for smart government, one that works for all citizens, right now its ineffecient and works best for those with money. There is no capitalistic utopia no more than there is utopian socialism, if it works for the country as a whole then it works, if it doesn't, then it doesn't, and in case you didn't know the incaration rate in this country is the highest in the world, as a percentage of population its around 7 times higher than Great Britain, or Canada, thats very costly and unproductive

 

[Forthewall]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-16-08 AT 04:43PM (MST)[p]So our Constitution is just a piece of paper? I believe that's President George Bush's quote not mine. I find that statement as an American offensive and disrespectful.

You are just another vocal cheerleader just like the rest of us here in the forum, unless you secretly belong to either a state legislature, lobbying group, or congress. Facts are we are not law-makers or players, nor are we mere non-vocal disheartened fans. We all vocalize our concerns for in hopes for a better tomorrow.

Oh yes the peace dividend, the downscaling proposed by the Bush Admin. and enacted by the Clinton Admin. Yes we didn't have enough desert uniforms, yes we had built an army around a war in a european theater. We painted vehicles with a luminescent stripe to stop killing ourselves and our Canadian allies. What else was there outside of that and armoured Humvees?

Let's see how many days did it take before we were in Baghdad. Perhaps if we were more prepared we could have done it in just a few hours instead.

As for being ill-prepared for the Afgan & Iraq conflict the peace dividend didn't hold our carrier fleet with 60,000 troops and equipment in the Med awaiting for Turkey to make up it's mine, only to say NO at the last minute before we invaded Iraq. That lead ballon fell upon a lack of communication between Washington and Turkey, and poor military planning.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/08/06/opinion/main3136550.shtml

As for closing military bases, that maybe, I did see Joe Leiberman humping George's leg on stage when a base closure in his state was on the table. Yet bases still closed.

Who ever said that undertaxed corporations were the root of our current economic situation? I know I did not say that.
I just think their rights trump my rights, which is wrong.

If government is not going to raise taxes on income the federal and state deficits will not simply dissappear with magic encantations.

"Where do corporations get their money to pay these taxes you propose? It is a pass through to them." Please elaborate on pass-through-to-them.

As for what the founders believed in I leave you with this:

"But when a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security." Thomas Jefferson - The Declaration of Independence


"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, it will be the responsibility of this Nation's experienced Patriots to prevent its ruin." Samuel Adams - 1780

It's o.k. to be a cheerleader Nemont, everybody wants to sleep with us.

As for Bailouts, I do not support Bailouts in any fashion unless it is to protect national security.

Piper I just caught your thread. Like Ike, I too do not wish to
vision an America where we place "Humanity on an Iron Cross".

 

[overton]

Piper

It not that land is no longer cheap, it's that money has devalued greatly.

 

[NeMont]

Explain then your comment about beware of anyone saying: find the constitutional basis for the taking this action. Either we are a nation of laws or we are not.

I am involved in many lobbying groups. I have regularyly traveled not only to my state capital to testify and lobby but have gone on delegations to Washington on behalf of two different groups I belong to.


I can play the quote game also.
"Most faults are not in our Constitution, but in ourselves."
- Thomas Jefferson

"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government - lest it come to dominate our lives and interests."
- Patrick Henry

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them (around the banks), will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered".
Thomas Jefferson

"The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first".
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical".
Thomas Jefferson


So the democrats were just playing political games when they were frothing at the mouth about our troops not having the right equipment and blaming GWB for sending them to war ill prepared? I thought it was bad to play politics with soldiers lives? I guess that only applies to Republicans.

Corporations have the ability to raise their prices inline with whatever tax you wish to place on them. That is a pass through. I take from you and give what I took to the government, did cost me anything other then the time it takes to write the check.

Anyway there is another round of foreclosures coming and Obama isn't going to stop it. Anything the government does is just going to deepen and lengthen the a recession or depression.

We can beat our swords into plowshares, which BTW I actually believe is going to be forced on us, but in the end it will not solve our problems.

Nemont

 

[huntindude]

Lots of good points by both of you, too much for dirt farmer to comprehend after my first drink for the evening.

My thought on the whole can of worms is the government can't fix it but they can't sit on the side line either. the looming disaster predicted in the next couple years for the bankers might be the straw that breaks the camels back, this is a scary . I like FTW's positive attitude its refreshing, but it's hard to not be as gloom and doom as Nemont given the situation as I see it.

Never the less can't never did anything so to survive we must take proactive measures to save whats left of our job base. Nemont I've been whining about the national debt for 10 years as I watched it doubled during good times under a republican, today each and every american citizen owes $34,916 dollars on the debt. what do you feel the chances are they're going to pony up? why should we go into a depression to avoid borrowing a little more? or a lot more? if we doubled it so we could have lower taxes and fight elective battles is it wrong to run it up some more to ward off disaster?

I've come to the realization the national debt is going to grow because nobody cares, yes that's very ignorant and it's going to bite us in the butt but thems the facts. times like this are when we need to borrow money to make an investment in our economy, if we spend it in the right places we should get tax revenues to repay it down the road. we have no choice anyway, this country wouldn't hold together for another great depression those people and those days are gone.

 

[NeMont]

I actually am not doon and gloom. I am just making sure I am getting out of all my dollar denominated investments. I will not own anything in dollars after Febraury 09.

People who know me know that I really am fun to around. Unlike FTW I am also a realist. We are broke and the moves by our government are ensure we go further in the hole.

Nemont

 

[Forthewall]

Gosh I wish I could be a realist too considering I predicted this collapse at the end of 2005. Let see, I sold my business, my home, my rental properties, and went totally liquid 7 months ago.

I restructered my portfolio in early 2007 and have been in gold certificates, treasuries, foreign currencies, cd's, and 3 long term nominal holds in equities.

I also predicted an across the board economic collapse, the bubble to burst in housing and a decline in the ppb by 50% by 2009. At the time many self-proclaimed realists thought I was crazy, some even made bets with me thinking they would make easy money.

That reminds me Nemont we made a bet on my predictions from 2005 and unless oil rebounds in the next 3 weeks I should have a $25.00 gift certificate coming to me.

We can dig it up from the archives but I believe you said something to the effect that the only way oil would ever drop by 50% would be if we were in an economic collapse, which you bet against.

Schiff, Brinker, and others influenced my decisions years ago and guys like them have saved me literally hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Just a couple of weeks ago Eelgrass wanted to know if anybody thinks we have hit bottom and should he jump back in. My response to Eelgrass speaks for itself.

PM me on 1-20-09 so you'll know where to send the certificate my realistic friend.

 

[huntindude]

I guess I'm not to the point I think the dollar is going to become worth a peso. maybe I'm in denial I can't say, but if things get all that bad I think we'll slide into total chaos and your portfolio won't matter anyway.

I'm thinking prudent money managment is more important than ever in my lifetime, but being overly negative could lead to poor decisions. I see a prolonged recession, or maybe world depression if things really go bad but foriegn currency and commodities of no use like gold are going to suffer as much as real estate and the stock market in my opinion so the net result is the same. I don't want to sound like some captian america goof like 202 but if the USA and the us dollar crash we'll take most of the world with us. in time I see us becoming a much smaller player in both the worlds economy and in world power, but not in the near future so I base my plans off that.

 

[coolspringoutfitters]

The Realtors??? Why the Realtors??? Real Estate agents and Realtors don't control the real estate market... Buyers and Sellers do!!! It's VERY simple supply and demand. If there are a lot of homes on the market and and not a lot of buyers-the house prices go DOWN, if there are less homes on the market and lots of buyers- prices go up!!! The real estate market that we are in now was caused by all of the bad loans that were allowed by the mortgage companies. Interestingly enough, it was the Clinton Adminstration that pushed for ARMs, Interest Only, and Stated loans (anyone could walk in to a mortgage brokers office, say that they made $10,000 a month and get a loan, no questions asked)
If you want to blame someone in the Real Estate industry, blame the banks and mortgage companies!!! They are the ones that accepted all of the bad loans. Realtors have nothing to do with that!!!
It has been an interesting year. A lot of the so called "experts" claim that the worst part is over and the second half of 2009 the market will bounce back. It should be interesting. The interest rates are expected to go down to 4.5% for purchases in January, if that happens it should pick up, but its a bandaid not a fix. The bad news is if you live in Utah we probably still have a while. We USUALLY follow the California market by about 2 years, so...it could be a while!!!
And don't get me started on the buyers...It truly is a "I want it now" generation. The thought process is- my parents have a nice house, I need one too, but I can't drive my Honda if I have a new house so I gotta buy a new big overpriced truck, but my parents/friends have a boat, so to hang out with them I need a boat too, and a camper for when we aren't boating, and don't forget, I gotta fill my house that is way to big with new couches and stuff...keep in mind, its all financed!!! It is just stupid...LIVE WITHIN YOUR MEANS!!!
Good times thinking that its Realtors fault...but thats just not the case. (and yes I am a Realtor)
Sorry for the long post...

CSO

It's all about the good times...

 

[piper]

from the land of strip malls, mini vans and subdivisions, I can see where you are coming from, the problem is realtors are salesmen and they do whatever they can to push prices up and sell, your right it is the consumers responsibility in the end but we can all see where its ended up at, you guys are more like drug pushers,in fact I have met a few realtors that might be addicts, they were were really wound up, nobody said you were drug lords or anything, - don't get upset Im mostly kidding

 

[coolspringoutfitters]

Piper,
Its funny that we can agree on a few things, but I do have to disagree on a few as well. When the market was good, all you had to do was stick a sign in the yard and the home would sell. It didn't matter where you priced it, the market would catch up. Sellers wanted more and more for their homes, so prices went up and up. And there were buyers for all those homes. Even at the inflated prices. ANYONE could sell a home(even For Sale by Owners were getting what they were asking). As a professional salesman, I do what my clients ask me to do, but also guide them in the direction that is best for them. In the past market there were a ton of people jumping on the Realtor bandwagon, and most of them didn't belong there. It made it tough to get deals to work, because everyone knew someone that was a "professional". The problem was, their "professional" didn't have the training or experience to do anyone any good. They got off from their job at walmart at 3, and put on their real estate cap for a few hours before going home.
Now, as the market changes and people are more dependant on REAL professionals, a lot of the "drug pushers" are leaving the business (thank goodness). You'll notice that you won't see many of the $500 listing agents anymore...There is a reason for that. Their whole business model is to list homes, overpriced, where they won't sell, and wait for buyers to call on their signs. Sellers become bait. The discount agents don't want the home to sell. If it sells they don't get any calls. These aren't salesmen. These are the "in it for a quick buck" type of people. Most of them are gone.
In today's market, things are different. Out of all the Real Estate agents across the nation, 70% haven't sold a house yet this year. And of the 30% left, only 3% have sold more than 3. I am guessing that if you wanted to sell your home, you'd probably want to work with someone that knew what they were doing. NOT a used car salesman drug pusher... I will tell you exactly what I tell all of my clients-We don't dictate what your home will sell for, buyers do. The market dictates the price. Whether it is an up market or a down market, we can't sell it if no one is willing to pay that price, how could we? Every home is unique, every seller thinks their home is worth more than their neighbors. The MARKET tells US where it will sell. We can do all the marketing and advertising in the world, but if its not priced right it WON'T sell!!! Even if its priced well its still tough.
I'm sorry if you had bad experiences in the past. It is tough because they don't regulate who can be a Realtor as well as they should. And that makes the good ones few and far between. But they are out there.
Keep in mind that EVERYTHING in the world is sold...by a salesman. And in any industry, there are good ones and bad ones. Hopefully, when you have to deal with one again, it will be a good experience.

CSO

It's all about the good times...

 

[NeMont]

Piper,

Don't you remember the old joke?

A lady wants to pay for her groceries with a check so the cashier asks, "Can I see your Realtor license"? The lady looks confused and says, "don't you mean my driver's license"? The cashier shakes her head and says, "Not everybody drives".

That is what it was like during the Real Estate boom, the whole Ninja loan industry fueled more and more people to get in on the action.

Nemont

 

[huntindude]

That's a fact, my sister in law is so dumb she has to leave her turn signal on so she knows what side of her car to get back in and she made a killing during the boom. now she's unemployed.

I suppose the realtors left are competent or they'd be on the street as well but they are an easy target.

 

[piper]

Coolspring- actually all my experiences with realtors have been positive, the so called addicts were casual friends and they are wound up on other things these days

 

[coolspringoutfitters]

Good, I'm glad you have had good experiences. I just re read my last post. Sorry I got a bit preachy...It just always gets to me when I hear about the negative with real estate agents. I take it kind of personal. I am sure its the same way in your line of work. Thanks for the fun...

CSO

It's all about the good times...

 

[cmiddleton]

when i blamed the realtors it was because some are like used car salesmen they will say anything no matter how outrageous of lie to make the sale.
my son bought a house in July.
i was against it from when he started shopping for it in february.
every honest fact i told my son the realtor countered with a lie that "housing prices only go up." "they are not making any more land."
they sold my son on that line of thought over my advice.
i told him to wait tell after August and see where the economy go's. i missed it by a few weeks.
i told him the banks can't keep lending money on over priced mortgages that people can't possibly pay.
he now has a 1600 a month mortgage and a wife with health problems and a unstable economy.
i told him if you can't pay your house payment with one weeks pay you are living beyond your means. he didn't listen.
now he has spent the last week in Denver with his wife in the hospital.
that lost weeks pay will be vary hard to make up in the dead of winter when work is slow to begin with.
i know he should have taken my advice not the used car salesman[realitor]
wyoming hasn't felt the crash yet but its coming. every boom has a bust. buy during the bust sell during the boom.
in 1990 i could have bought the same house for 40,000 that he just payed 160,000

 

[coolspringoutfitters]

cmiddleton,
That really is too bad. Its hard when stuff like that happens. Living in Wyoming, you will probably feel the worst of it. Not only with the housing market, but the oil field as well. It could hurt twice as much. It just goes to show, anywhere you can find homes for sale, you can find people that don't belong in the industry. That payment seems WAY high for $160K. Where are you in Wyoming? I sent you a PM...

CSO

It's all about the good times...

 

[Forthewall]

Ugh! Whatever ever happened to, "I just gotta get them to 18 or through college, and I'm done."

Cmid, if it were my son I would Equity-Share the property immediately. You pay the tax-deductible property taxes which should be nominal but will go a long way to help your son.

I might even go a step further and get deeded on the mortgage just so I could make changes. (ie. terms, impound accounts, lenders) No Dad-son loans, if it fails just take it out of his portion of inheritance, loans and kids never go hand in hand. Face it, your gonna pay, could be worse, could be a 400K note.....Dad

Something ain't right about that payment either, I would fine-tooth his closing paperwork and mortgage set-up. Damn kids why do we love our children this much?

Then I would make sure to have a spiritual moment with my boy, detailing the finer aspects of gludial head placement, and remind him that your advice is free to him because you already paid for it.

CSO,

Realtors are realtors what can you say other than it is a 7-week course at a local J.C. and a legal way to make money.

Realtors always represent sellers and as the old saying goes between agents, "Let's make this happen." Realtors act in their own interests by law, most dance in gray areas between the lender and other agent. An experienced buyer or seller establishes a guideline up-front with their agent on such gray areas.

CSO, I have been on both sides as buyer and seller many times and was lucky enough to have a top notch agent. I am more than familiar with all games, so please stop polishing the halo and playing the harp on behalf of the Real Estate industry. You do what you do to make a living and fill a need without moral compass.

Afterall, ever hear of a successful agent who's motto is "Don't buy Real Estate it's a bad investment right now." Realtors are desperate for any tidbit of good news in the last 2 years and by their very nature are always overly-optimistic and bullish.

The blame is strictly on the liberal credit policies of lenders, greedy developers, greedy state and local governments planners, and the federal government's monetary policy.

 

[coolspringoutfitters]

Forthewall, You're absolutly right, I love the saying "Lets make it happen"...But not for the reasons you think. There is nothing wrong or immoral about making a deal work. Especially if it is a great deal for your client. Thats what we get paid for!!! Its not all about the sellers, if it were up to them, everyone would sell their home for a million bucks... If you are a listing agent, its your responsibility to represent the seller to the best of your ability, that doesn't mean overpricing the home and never giving it the chance to sell, it means doing everything you can to get them the most money. But in order to do that, you still have to price it where it will sell. At the same time, it is a buyers agents responsibility to get the best deal for their buyers. It goes both ways. Here is the problem with the whole thing. USUALLY the listing agents understand the game, and have better skills than a buyers agent. And that is because the listing agents have usually worked harder at their trade. It really appears that the lising agents get better deals for their clients than the buyers agents. Most of the time they do. They negotiate better, they are more comfortable in their industry, and most are professionals. Now don't get me wrong, there are a lot of agents that are out for a buck, especially the ones that aren't making it. It is a buyers and sellers responsibility to choose who they will work with. If the choice was a bad one, that can leave a really bad taste in your mouth.
If I have tried to paint the whole industry as a bunch of people "polishing the halo and playing the harp on behalf of the Real Estate industry", I am sorry. There are a lot of not great people still out there. As I was writing I was thinking about myself and the people that I work with. It is a hard deal. It is like Cmid said, you can tell people the truth, but someone will come along and feed them a line...and they will buy it. I think that is the most frustrating part of the whole industry. Mortgage brokers included. I usually give out 2-3 brokers names to a buyer and tell them to shop around and see who is the best fit. Then they will talk to my guys and then to someone else, and that someone else always has a better rate. Until we get to the closing table, then all of the sudden the rate goes way up or their fees are through the roof if the broker can even get it closed, and my client is in a bad place. I use the same lenders every time because I know that they do a good job, they are fair, and they will have it done when they say it will be done.
I really don't buy "realtors are realtors". I am glad that you have had good experiences with an agent in the past. It just goes to show that there are good ones out there. I do my best every day to be one of them. Again, I am sorry if I made it sound like the whole industry is perfect, its not, but I will tell you this- its getting better. A lot of the riff raff is leaving. It should be even better after the first of the year. It looks like a lot of agents won't pay their dues, so there will be even more out on the street, looking for jobs.

Oh ya, one more thing, do I know you??? Do you know me??? I don't think so... so DON'T try and tell me that I don't have a moral compass. I understand that there are a lot of people out there that don't, but I am not one of them. So don't try to say that all agents don't, its just not true. I'd bet that the agent you have had good experiences with has a good moral compass, or you wouldn't work with them time and time again. It's that way in every industry anyway, right??? And usually its the minority that makes the majority look bad. You never hear the good, positive stories, just the negative ones. And those are far fewer than the positive ones. So, sorry for the long post. I am sure I'll hear from you shortly...
CSO
It's all about the good times...

 

[cmiddleton]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-25-08 AT 10:10AM (MST)[p] i was wrong i talked to my son he payed 186,000 plus taxes and insurance his payments are $1386. 5% interest
if he gets 40 hrs a week that's one thing but with holidays and any time off he will struggle.
not to mention what if Wyoming's economy gets hit like everywhere else.
buy low sell high in housing not buy at the top of the market which is what he did.
wages are already falling the IBEW just got the Wyoming department of transportation to move highway work from outside lineman contracts to interior wire man stats that is a $12 a hour cut in wages for those doing the work. makes us get traveling papers to work in a different local. i don't like it that is why we kept it in the lineman agreement so it all fell under local 322.

 

[manny15]

I just looked at a $400,000 house thats listed @ $160,000 Hmmm

 

[huntsonora]

>I just looked at a $400,000
>house thats listed @ $160,000
>Hmmm

I bet you looked at a $160,000 house that some dumbass paid $400,000 for before the collapse


Stay classy Utah!

 

[manny15]

>>I just looked at a $400,000
>>house thats listed @ $160,000
>>Hmmm
>
>I bet you looked at a
>$160,000 house that some dumbass
>paid $400,000 for before the
>collapse
>
>
>Stay classy Utah!


well i don't know but there multiple offers now.....