Turning Tags Back in.... BS!!!

[elks96]

So reading another post. I saw a guy who is turning his tag back in for not seeing many animals. I feel this is a horrible set up and hope the CPW does something to address this soon. It happens all the time around here and only leads to further point creep and to longer waits for all when a person decides the day before a hunt they did not like what they saw and turn the tag back in. When this happens that opportunity is lost for the year. It pisses me off to think of the 100, 1000 other hunters who may have applied for that tag and the tag is wasted.

I feel that if you pull a tag and turn it on for anything other than a verifiable medical/family emergency you should not only loose the money for the tag but also a chunk of your points. There are guys that have built points so far that they can afford to hand in tags 4-5 years and still have tag the next. This whole thing clogs the point system. Take opportunity from others and perpetuates greed in the sport.

What do you think? Solutions?

1. I believe that all tags must be handed back 2 weeks prior to the hunt.

2. Any tag that is handed back should go into a totally random drawing that all hunters can enter into for a fee. Lottery for a turned in tag.

3. Hunters handing back tags with out missing an arm loosing an immediate family member should loose enough points to be out of thee running for a couple years.

I can see a revenue generation line for the CPW and a little relief in the points system.

 

[tailchasers]

LAST EDITED ON Sep-13-13 AT 10:28AM (MST)[p]IMO you draw a tag you use it unless for serious health reasons or other serious verifiable emergencies. Its hunting. You take what you get and make the best out of it as you can. Complete crap to me and a copout. As you stated plenty of other folks are waiting to draw the tag and when someone turns the tag back in a opportunity is lost. CPW is way to liberal with this but until the rule is changed this will continue to happen. Hell I read where an individual turned the tag back in because of to much rain. TFB it's H U N T I N G ! ! !

"Courage is being scared to death but saddling up anyway."

 

[Canvsbk]

Play the hand you're dealt. You can ##### but you're stuck with. I hate preference points...



Semper Fi

 

[Lawrence]

Playing the hand you're dealt includes playing by the rules - all the rules whether they coincide with your thought process or not.

The guy played by the rules in place and did nothing wrong.

What's the problem? It's certainly not the guy.

I don't like preference points either but it's the system in place. Several years ago I drew an eastern Colorado tag and a serious drought happened that year. I spent the time and money that summer to drive from Houston, TX to the landowners ranch and survey the situation. The range was burnt to a crisp. Ultimately, I turned the tag back in. Did I do something wrong?

No, and neither did that guy.

 

[tailchasers]

Lawrence technically you did nothing wrong nor did' "that guy" but having this rule allows the point system to worsen and promotes hunters to pick and choose way to much, encouraging point creep affecting everyone. I see how this screws the next or several persons in line not only for one season but several seasons. Stacking the odds in ones favor is all fine and dandy but when this starts impacting several people and an entire system I have to draw the line and this is one of them.

"Courage is being scared to death but saddling up anyway."

 

[Lawrence]

We can agree to disagree.

In the past, I've had double digit points for elk and deer. A hunter invests 15-20+ years building valuable preference points - I think he's earned the ability, if he chooses, to use all the rules in place to safeguard and utilize those points as he sees fit. I know I did.

My point is that the hunter is really not your issue here - it's the system you don't like, and frankly, I'm not fond of it either.

 

[2_Point]

Change the rule and then everyone follows it. Hunt the tag unless you are in military service, under extreme medical duress or you are dead. The selfishness of our "Me" mentality society dives me nuts. Having high points might entitle someone to a permit, but it does not entitle them to inches or animals.

 

[sticksender]

Remember too, when turning in a tag, even if you sacrifice your license fee to "retain" your points, you're automatically knocked back to a lower point pool. You can't gain a point in a year you draw a 1st choice tag, even if you return the tag.

 

[RdRunr]

Call it BS, call it what you want. CPW says I can turn my tag in and get my points back and I did just that. If you can change the rules more power to you but as long as this is allowed people are going to use it. I can see that my act may have prevented someone else from getting the tag but who is to say that he wouldn't have done the same thing. Bottom line is I play the point system like everyone else and those points are valuable. In the case of our deer hunting in Colorado I wish every tag holder would turn their tags back in so the CPW would realize that you can't sell tags if you don't have the animals to support it.

 

[NickJ1980]

I like it the way it is - occasionally life gets in the way and it's nice to have some flexibility. Why should someone have to lose any amount of preference points if they have an unforeseen change in job status, family issues, vehicle issues, etc? So what if a few guys abuse it? Also I doubt "it happens all the time" on the premium hunts. Instead of screwing the guys with legit reasons for returning a tag, why not find a compromise so that those tags can be re-issued? If that could be done I think having a cutoff a week or two before the season would be appropriate.

Rob (elks 96) maybe you can use your spot on the CPW's Sportsmans Roundtable to get us some real numbers on tag returns so we can all decide if this is a real issue or a pet peeve of a few guys.

 

[Cornhusker]

Just because you can legally do it doesn't mean you should. A prime example of the entitlement a lot of people have. The game commission means it for an emergency type situation not when you can't find the animal you want or a drought has effected hunting.

 

[COLOelkman]

I don't mind the turn in rule but what I don't like is that the CPW does not try to get the tag into someone else's hands. I think there should be a time limit prior to season when a tag could be turned in and the CPW should have a way to offer the tag to the next group of hunters that would have qualified. Unfortunately this would take some time and it seems the CPW chooses to not attempt to get the tag to someone else. There could be a good reason for this but I've not heard any good reasons why they just let it go. It gives the appearance of just not wanting to hassle with it.
They are far more generous in their turn in policy than any other state that I know of, so on that, it seems a good policy from not making the customer mad.

 

[jbendy]

I'm glad they have the rule, some of the hunters in larimer and boulder county, co can't even get to their hunting area due to the floods. Why should they be punished.

 

[elks96]

I have looked into it a bit. The numbers I am getting show this tends to be a much bigger issue with deer than elk. I know last year 4 unit 44 tags were turned back in from talking with the area manager. At least 3 of the tags were handed in the day before season started after the guys had spent the week before scouting.

I agree there should be an outlet for the extreme emergencies... This would include massive flooding/acts of god. But there are people every year who turn in tags because the summer was dry or there is not enough snow to push the animals down, etc. I believe there needs to be some very strict rules and that if you want to turn a tag back in you loose the money plus a couple years points. There are guys that have enough points right now that are turning in tags that can do so for 3+ years before they will not draw.

The tags are lost the opportunity is lost and it is cheap free money for the DNR.

Just a thought: Any premium tag turned back in goes to a separate lottery where hunters pay a small fee ($10) to enter the last chance lottery. Any tag handed back gets entered into a random draw system where a person is drawn. They then have the opportunity to hunt the unit with out using points and the only hard part is making the last minutes trip. This could be a revenue generator and at least provide opportunity to others instead of loosing the tag entirely.

I will work on getting data on tags turned back in!!!

 

[Lawrence]

I don't believe extremely poor range conditions brought on by severe drought as well as units that may have had prior enormous winter kill and are still in recovery mode constitute an "entitlement mentality" when it comes to reasons a hunter may turn back a tag.

Is there such a thing as "preference point envy"?

 

[Cornhusker]

Game commissions and biologists monitor winter kill and range conditions and issue tags according to conditions. I know they are not always correct in tags issued but they are certainly better than letting each individual decide after drawing a tag if it's good enough to hunt. The original title as posted is correct.

 

[contender]

If you really want to end point creep it is simple. You get a preference point if you don't draw your 1st or 2nd choice tag. Turning in a tag once would be allowed for any reason then go to zero points. Simple enough. I don't have to worry about pp I had 3 once. This year I used one for an elk hunt.

 

[hoopscoach]

I got a call from the Colorado DOW in 2006 saying someone had forfeited their bighorn ewe tag. I had applied for a ewe tag in that unit as my second choice and they said, although I hadn't drawn, I was the first "alternate" on the list and wondered if I wanted to purchase the tag. I didn't have to give up any points because it was my second choice so it was a no brainer for me, even though I didn't have a lot of time to scout. I don't know if that is still their practice when someone turns in their tag, but they used to have an "alternate" list and they would call those on the list to see if they wanted the tag.

I generally agree that it's not okay to turn back a tag because you can't find a "quality" animal with preseason scouting. With that said, I did forfeit my unit 29 muzzy cow tag on Friday because I couldn't access my area due to flooding and roads being closed. I didn't feel one bit bad about turning that tag back. I think the DOW should even consider giving those who burned points for a unit 20 or 29 tag this year their $ and points back because of the lack of access this year. This doesn't apply to me as I drew on my second choice do I didn't give up any points. I just think they should be a little more flexible in a situation where an act of god prevents access. Just my opinion.
Hoopscoach

"Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud"

 

[cabinfever]

In Utah, you can turn in a tag and still build a point for that year.I'm not sure that's a good thing, but it's legal. At least with CO, you loose a point for that year if you turn the tag back in, which, due to point creep, can actually put you out of reach for the same tag the following year.

Bottom line;If a guy is willing to put 20 years into building points, than he should have some discretion as to how and when they are used. They are his points. He owns them?

I do feel that every tag turned in should be reissued and that there should be a resonable deadline for turning tags in.

 

[tailchasers]

Ain't entitlement grand? I've got 5, 10, 15, or whatever points so I "deserve"!!Deserves got nothing to do with it other than personal greed. If a hunter has a wallet with points, cashes in on a tag, and decides the day before the season to turn tag back in because they couldn't find the big one then you have just screwed every hunter below you with lesser points. This same enactment can hold true for numerous scenarios. Live with your choices and realize hunting has not guarantees. Want a 100% certainty then do a high fence hunt but quite crapping on others.

I'll step down from my soap box now...

"Courage is being scared to death but saddling up anyway."

 

[cjoutfit]

The answer lies in more units available with the kind of quality and opportunity we have had and would like to have again. The problem has been and still is that the CPW manages for OPPORTUNITY.

At the May commission meeting when we were once again protesting the amount of doe deer licenses that are being issued, especially with the 07/08 winter kill and the increases in all forms of mortality, one of the wildlife commissioners asked the CPW biologist who had just given a presentation on mule deer and populations and showed that only 1 area in the entire state was at or above population objectives - Why are we killing so many does when we are below population objectives in every unit but one? I cant for the life of me figure out how by killing more deer we will increase the populations.

The answer was - We still have to have OPPORTUNITY.

You can come to your own conclusions as to what that means but that is another subject for another time.

Demand and population declines cause preference point creep, our obsessions and love of the sport and animals have caused the problems, not the regulations about turning a tag in. In all units that is a good thing to have an extra buck or 2 to breed and get a year older.

We as sportsmen need to be on the same page concerning our wildlife populations and what we want and expect and keep the politics out of wildlife management. Too many factors have caused an ecosystem imbalance and we have to make it up in other ways if we are to have areas and units with huntable wildlife.

An alternate hunter list would be a good appeasement solution as well, and can also work for bears and other problem wildlife.

 

[ElkManDan]

I about turned my Colorado archery elk tag in this year, I had drawn an unexpected LE archery tag in Utah as well and didn't feel that I could give them both the time they needed to make them both a good hunt. Being that I paid $585 for the elk tag and didn't have a lot of points invested in the Colorado tag I was going to opt for the money back. I'm sure glad I didn't and took the chance that I could fill both tags. I scored on a 370" bull in Colorado opening day and a 335" bull in utah on day 9. I'm glad that some of the states have some flexibility in returning tags but I do understand the frustration of the point creep and the points systems in general. Point being though is that if you turn in the tag you never know what you might miss out on.
Colorado 2013

Utah 2013

 

[Lawrence]

Wow, let's see:

entitlement, it's all about me, crapping on others, bs, copout, deserves to, yada yada yada

I forgot why I've monitored this site for years but only have about 100 posts.

The rules are the rules - and turning your tag back in is OK under the rules. You forfeit your points or your money - name your poison.

I'm glad to see someone actually thought about the animals and not themselves:

cjoutfit - "In all units that is a good thing to have an extra buck or 2 to breed and get a year older."

I was waiting to see if anyone concluded that one more mature buck would live to breed another year and provide a future opportunity for other hunters in possibly ALL seasons the subsequent year.

 

[rmanwill]

Rules are rules and made by the Fish and Game Departments. I don't agree with people drawing a tag and scouting the unit/area's and then turning their tag in days before the hunt because they don't believe the unit is up to par or they cannot find animals of quility.

However, I purchase points for all my boys for numerous spieces in numerous states. I knew my older son would draw this year with 10 points for a deer tag, which he did. After the draw his employemnt changed for the better and yes he is only 22 years old where he is not set in his ways and employment, not to mention school.

YES, we are headed for a third season deer hunt in Colorado, due to my boys employment allowing him time off even without him having personal time available until he has been employed for a year. Lucky him.

However, I will state that I would have turned the tag back in and forfieted the money and the one point for this years draw to maintian his current ten points for a future year if he could not have recieved the time off of his employment.

Right or wrong, I'm glad the rule is there even if I did not have to use it. However, I will say I would have turned it in prior to now to allow it to be re-issued if they wished and to give another hunter time to plan for his hunt if he recieved the forfieted tag. I know Utah has a waiting list of people next to draw tags that are turned in and it does happen regularly here i Utah.

I don't agree with all the rules in several states, but abide by them. I also know that most of us use the rules as set up, but that there will always be the few that abuse them and manipulate them in their favor. Hopefully it will remain the exception to the rule and not the majority.

Best of luck to all in this years hunts.

 

[Stonefly]

LAST EDITED ON Sep-20-13 AT 06:05AM (MST)[p]At least put a time limit on it. I was called by the DWR 6 days before the opener, and told Myself and my Son were drawn as alternates for the book cliff's archery tags. By then we had already got our camp, Tree stands, and gear all set up 200 miles away from the book cliffs for an OTC archery Elk hunt. Planes had been made for the family and friends to hunt Elk because we hadn't drawn other tags. I told them thanks but no thanks. If your going to allow for tags to be turned in then it should be at least a month and a half before the hunt opens. To allow the alternate to scout, set up ,and prepare for the dang hunt. As for the points and money, if you don't have any reasons like those you listed you should loose it all. This was in Utah BTW

 

[Alamosa]

I like current the rule for turning in tags. It's a good rule.

No one who has waited years for a tag should be forced to spend those points to hunt a unit where he has no chance. Many things can affect a unit, or a personal situation, that are beyond anyones control.

No one is hurt more by the point creep than the person turning in the tag. He may never catch up again. That is penalty enough in itself.

Colorado issues too many tags anyway. There is no harm in allowing a few animals mature another year.

If someone is lucky enough to win a raffle or lottery for a coveted hunt they shouldn't be forced into a situation where they must surrender their points or surrender the hunt that they won (this happened to me).

 

[Bridger]

LAST EDITED ON Sep-30-13 AT 10:38PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Sep-30-13 AT 10:36?PM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Sep-30-13 AT 10:29?PM (MST)

Judging by the level of frustration by some, has the pendulum swung to the other side? I remember, prior to when the current refund policy was created, hunters were upset because refunds were only allowed for a) extreme medical circumstances, and b) Death of the license holder or death of the license holders immediate family member (Go to CPW Regulations #1670 A(8)(a & b) to read the full statement). So, it was about 15 years ago that HUNTERS lobbied DOW to reconsider its refund policy. DOW went to the Wildlife Commission with this request, justified it in support of the hunters who had made their case and the Commission changed its policy.

A few years later, when it became apparent that some 'high quality' licenses were being turned in for a refund and not being placed in the hands of those who could hunt. DOW again went to the Wildlife Commission and explained the problem. The Commission agreed again in favor of the hunting community and amended its policy. DOW then began re-issuing these special licenses to the 'next in line' applicant for bighorn sheep, mountain goat, moose, public Ranching For Wildlife ES deer, elk and antelope. Since then, if one of these licenses is turned in, the Denver office calls the 'next in line' applicant and asks if they want the license? If they said, 'No thanks' the call goes to the next applicant...and on down the line until somebody accepts the license. And keep in mind, if that person accepts the license, he/she loses their preference points....in some ways the pp creep is ever-so-slightly reduced.

In Colorado at least it was hunters who thought the old rule was too restrictive and lobbied the Wildlife Commission to relax their refund policy and allow consideration of other reasons for refunds/pp reinstatement.

 

[trkytrack]

I have no problem with the law as it is written. I understand the frustration some have with not drawing a tag and then have someone that does draw a tag to turn it in and that tag is basically lost.
The wildlife commission has meetings all over the state, early in the year, for hunters to voice their concerns about anything; seasons, tags, etc. The CPW does have a next in line call list for special tags.