UNSUCC. guys, thank you, Utahs deer herd!

Tristate-

I knew that you would not bother to read the Mule Deer Plan. It takes too much time and effort to try to understand facts.

FYI, the Mule Deer Plan was put together by those very same "professionals" that you are asking us to trust -- and a broad group of stakeholders. Another FYI, the modest tag increases that were proposed this year and passed were recommended by those very same "professionals" that you are asking us to trust. And one final FYI, nobody was asking the "professionals" to automatically alter the harvest. Rather, the "professionals" proposed modest tags increases as set forth in the Mule Deer Plan and a small group of vocal sportsmen opposed those increases.

Once again, there is plenty of room in the middle to balance the interests of trophy hunters and opportunity hunters.

-Hawkeye-
 
>Hawkeye,
>
>You mean that with the DWR
>paying for budgets with "wealth
>tags" mule deer numbers are
>climbing????
>

>Cheers,
>
>Ben


The mule deer are climbing because of Mother Nature! Not because of any wealth tags. With favorable winters and springs and even summers, lately, the deer heard is growing. What that means is that we have not had any bad winters for several years in a row. Deep snow, deep cold spells, wet springs and summers have helped keep the fawn survival and deer in general alive. Has nothing to do with wealth or what the dwr has done with money.
 
Robiland,

See how well the herds do if there isn't a DWR. Here's a hint the DWR costs money.


Hawkeye,

You make one assumption after another. The professionals shouldn't give two flips about the trophy hunters either. THE DEER HERD is what matters. Not people's hobbies right now. FIX THE HERD THEN START ARGUING OVER WHO GETS TO DO THE KILLING.

Learn to trust these professionals. AS BAD AS THEY ARE AT THEIR JOB THEY ARE WAY BETTER THAN ALL OF YOU AT IT.
 
See Tri,

You prove to us day in and day out that you never read any of the literature that is provided. If I could explain this with a picture book, I would, with little pop ups and coloring sections.

BUT, the DWR is not ran off the wealth tags!!! The conservation groups are. The dwr gets paid, but not by the wealth tags. That money is "supposed to be used for conservation project". I wish the DWR would keep all those tags and auction/sale those tags in a raffle and keep the money for what ever they wanted, but they let other groups do that and keep the money for what ever they see fit.

Groundhog day the movie all over again.
 
Weather plays a big factor in deer herd population. However, managing predators, highway underpasses for migration routes, flashing lights where a lot of deer get hit by cars, and habitat improvements and water projects help as well. If you don't think they do, you are a little closed minded.
 
I think its funny watching yall assume things that you don't know the answer to such as what I have and haven't read.

What I also find amusing is you thinking I am arguing that these statements aren't in that plan when that has nothing to do with what I am talking about.

Denial.... it ain't just a river in Egypt.
 
"Learn to trust these professionals. AS BAD AS THEY ARE AT THEIR JOB THEY ARE WAY BETTER THAN ALL OF YOU AT IT."


and they're especially better at it then you City Boy.
 
Let me try this one last time.

Tristate has said repeatedly: "Learn to trust these professionals. AS BAD AS THEY ARE AT THEIR JOB THEY ARE WAY BETTER THAN ALL OF YOU AT IT." I assume that the DWR biologists and employees are the "professionals" that Tristate keeps referring to. Those "professionals" are the same folks who drafted the Mule Deer Plan and proposed the modest tag increases pursuant to the terms of that plan.

In summary, I did trust the professionals on this issue and I supported the Mule Deer Plan they drafted and the tag increases that they proposed. The folks who apparently do not trust the "professionals" that Tristate keeps citing are the small, vocal group of trophy hunters who sought to override the Mule Deer Plan and the proposal to increase tags from the DWR.

But Tristate does not understand those basic facts because he refuses to actually read the Mule Deer Plan or the proposal put forward by the DWR or minutes from the numerous meetings on the topic.

THE END.

-Hawkeye-
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-02-16 AT 01:55PM (MST)[p]>I am not talking about what
>the buck to doe ratios
>are now. I am
>talking about what they become
>when all you do is
>manage for "opportunity" and screw
>everything else.
>
>Let me ask you this what
>rancher Kills all of his
>bulls each year and expects
>his yearlings to do his
>breeding?
>
>Betting on yearlings to get your
>breeding done is irresponsible and
>HORRIBLE WILIDLIFE MANAGEMENT. I
>don't know what people have
>been feeding you but its
>dangerous.

First, We are not managing ALL units or herds for opportunity! Limited Entry, Premium Limited Entry, CWMUs, National Parks, most National Monuments, most State Parks, Municipal areas and most private property in Utah have herds that are either managed for trophies or not managed for hunting at all.

Second, No one is expecting or advocating that ALL the herds be managed for opportunity. No one is attempting to change a Limited Entry Unit into a General Unit. Those trophy managed units are as vital to the plan as the General Units and rightly so. Just because I'm not into trophy hunting that much doesn't mean I want every one to think or hunt the same way. But I do expect others to allow me to think and hunt my way and not try to change General Units into Limited Entry Units as some of them are attempting to do.

Third, Your analogy of the rancher is really stretching your argument. If a rancher only has a few mature bulls to service his cows, he'd be foolish to kill them ALL. But he'd also be foolish if he didn't remove the ones that were getting beyond their usefulness, as well as most of the yearling bulls in order to rotate some genes. But, of course, there's no way that ALL the mature mule deer bucks in Utah would be killed nor all the yearlings (or two/three/four year olds.) And with the current management plan, that couldn't happen. We'd reduce the permit numbers if the b/d ratios got too low, as we should.

Fourth, what difference does it make whether the sperm comes from a yearling or a 6 year-old buck? The DNA doesn't change with age. In any case, there are enough mature bucks per the post-season b/d ratios to breed the majority of the does anyway. The more mature bucks get to be mature in part because they avoid people, but they don't avoid a doe in estrus. Just because you don't see them during hunting season doesn't mean they don't exist. So, no one is betting on yearlings to do all, or even most, of the breeding. The mature bucks don't allow it.

Fifth, I was feed a whole lot of things while I was on the Mule Deer Committee and most of it came from the professionals you want us to believe. And, FWIW, some came from DC, and some from Bryon Bateman and Steve Dalton who are on the Wildlife Board.
 
Deerlove,

I haven't told you how to grow a deer herd on this thread. Your comprehension skills are comical.
 
Let me try this one last time.

I AM NOT ARGUING WHAT IS IN THE REPORT.

The professionals that wrote it obviously aren't the only ones involved in setting your harvest objective.

Then you keep talking about the evil "trophy hunters" who don't trust the professionals. I don't care about them. I am not arguing on behalf of them. You are trying to change the focus because you realize your stance is garbage.

Hey Hawkeye. When was the Mule deer plan written?
 
A lot of blah blah there elk.

If bull jiz is bull jiz no matter how old the bull is how come ranchers aren't whacking every single mature bull they have and letting all the immature bulls do the breeding?

This isn't rhetorical. You need to answer this.
 
First off let me start by saying this , sfw is and always will be the, worst thing that happened to Utah , and I took part in it for a long while ,actually from the first night , from banquet chairman, long nights, wasting time , energy, and gas money in bullshit rack meetings , its poison , that being said , I quit it all , no more racks , no expo , no don!!! 7 years clean

I to for the first time in my life , didn't draw a deer tag , I have been a dedicated hunter from inception , yet I did not draw , sad day , but , I will be in the hills , guiding all 3 of my kids who drew and my wife that drew , we will buy elk tags and kill spikes alott of spikes !

here is where I have a problem , all the bitching and complaining , does no good when all you complainers still support the expo and big money , still support big time guides like mossback, buy dennys videos and magazines , and keep feeding the monster , you are complaining about the very monster you are pumping $$$ into


'IT AINT EASY BEING ME'
 
We run yearling bulls to cover our cows, then sell them as 2 year olds. We have not seen any change in breed rates and fall weaning weights have remained high. Some guys believe a 2 year old angus bull breeds better than a yearling. We like to make money off of such foolishness. Now here comes the witty, demeaning reply which won't mean a thing to me.

Utah has 20 bucks to 100 doe. Show me any sheep rancher or cattleman who runs a 1:5 buck/bull ratio.
 
You really believe a yearling can breed the same rate as a mature bull???????

Interesting.

As for them having to be black angus I am not sure I agree with that.



As for your question regarding showing you a rancher that runs a 1 to 5 bull ratio that, doesn't apply. Muley bucks aren't put in an exclusive pasture with doe that are placed with them. The densities and juxtaposition are a little different.

You also talk specifically about Utah's buck to doe ratio. What is the buck to doe ratio of a general unit and what is the buck to doe ratio of an LE?
 
What's the actual biological buck to doe ratio on natural non human factor deer herd? I'd bet it's close to 1 to 1? So 100 buck per 100 does??? We are already running 60-80% below what nature intended?

Humans over consume by nature. That's why stories like the Golden Goose were written. We are also wonderful at justifying our over consumption. We say things like we are at carrying capacity. Why? Cause it's easier to say that and keep consuming than to actually make and effort to grow and maintain larger herds. It's easier to just keep taking and finding ways to justify it.
 
>A lot of blah blah there
>elk.
>
>If bull jiz is bull jiz
>no matter how old the
>bull is how come ranchers
>aren't whacking every single mature
>bull they have and letting
>all the immature bulls do
>the breeding?
>
>This isn't rhetorical. You need
>to answer this.

Blah, Blah ? Save the insults, they don't work with me and they make you look foolish and unable to make an intelligent response.

As for your question, of course it's rhetorical. This thread is about free ranging wild deer that are hunted by people with weapons 3 or 4 months out of the year with a management plan developed by hunters and biologists with varying agendas and who are accountable to several government agencies and the public. It's not about fenced domestic animals who aren't being shot at and are managed by an owner who has his own agenda and is accountable to no-one but himself.

And, no, I do not NEED to answer your questions, rhetorical or otherwise.

But, FWIW, I can think of lots of reasons a rancher might not kill his mature bulls and let the yearlings do the breeding. The young bulls may be better utilized as steers and sold on the meat market, the mature bulls may be used as examples of studs for the marketing of seed bulls, the mature bulls may be more used to being around the rancher and are easier to control, the mature bulls may have some traits that the rancher wants to pass on the future generations, the mature bulls may be used as studs with contracts with other ranchers, the rancher may believe that mature bulls are better breeders for whatever reason, mature bulls have an easier time recovering from losses after the breeding season with less effort by the rancher, etc.

I can also think of some reasons why a rancher might want to remove SOME (I never said ALL, you did!) of his mature bulls and let the yearlings do the breeding. Bull fights, fence and structure damage, inbreeding, danger to humans, too expensive to feed, impotent and chronic health issues among others.

Now if you care to continue, get back to free ranging wild deer.
 
>What's the actual biological buck to
>doe ratio on natural non
>human factor deer herd?
>I'd bet it's close to
>1 to 1? So
>100 buck per 100 does???
>We are already running 60-80%
>below what nature intended?
>
>Humans over consume by nature.
>That's why stories like the
>Golden Goose were written.
>We are also wonderful at
>justifying our over consumption.
>We say things like we
>are at carrying capacity.
>Why? Cause it's easier to
>say that and keep consuming
>than to actually make and
>effort to grow and maintain
>larger herds. It's easier
>to just keep taking and
>finding ways to justify it.
>

Your solution? Or ideal scenario?
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-03-16 AT 05:51AM (MST)[p]Elkfromabove,

Would you be happy with a doe tag every year instead of a buck tag?

Anyone else want to tell me the date of creation for The Mule Deer Plan?
 
>First off let me start by
>saying this , sfw is
>and always will be
>the, worst thing that happened
>to Utah , and I
>took part in it for
>a long while ,actually from
>the first night , from
>banquet chairman, long nights,
>wasting time , energy, and
>gas money in bullshit rack
>meetings , its poison ,
>that being said , I
>quit it all , no
>more racks , no expo
>, no don!!! 7 years
>clean
>
>I to for the first time
>in my life , didn't
>draw a deer tag ,
>I have been a dedicated
>hunter from inception , yet
>I did not draw ,
>sad day , but ,
>I will be in the
>hills , guiding all 3
>of my kids who drew
>and my wife that drew
>, we will buy elk
>tags and kill spikes alott
>of spikes !
>
>here is where I have a
>problem , all the bitching
>and complaining , does no
>good when all you complainers
>still support the expo and
>big money , still support
>big time guides like mossback,
>buy dennys videos and magazines
>, and keep feeding the
>monster , you are complaining
>about the very monster you
>are pumping $$$ into
>
>
>'IT AINT EASY BEING ME'

Nice post sprinkled in here. Glad you saw the light. Yes, the don certainly knew how to set up an incentive to lure otherwise good sportsmen. Like a pimp trolling his ho's. Myself I saw from the beginning what this crew was up to, and never attended one expo nor bought one raffle ticket. Never will. Although after the new all time low RFP scandal I can't help thinking my yearly Utah appl fees are almost as bad, since UTDOW & SFW are clearly in bed together. As a powerless nonresident, the whole fiasco is like looking out my jeep window while driving past a bad car accident. Except the same accident has been sitting there for 10 years, every time I drive by. Nobody cleans up the wreck.


*****************************************************
Greenhorns educate yourselves. Wherever SFW goes, scandals and corruption follow. Write your legislators:

http://kutv.com/news/local/allegations-of-corruption-surround-utah-hungtin-and-conservation-expo

https://www.cascwild.org/don-peay-the-man-who-would-be-king-baron/

http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs...ares-north-american-hunting-model-“socialism”

http://www.standard.net/Recreation/...16-Western-Hunting-and-Conservation-Expo.html

http://www.mtbullypulpit.org/2012/06/pox-on-fox.html

http://www.thewildlifenews.com/2013...on-essentially-buy-utah-division-of-wildlife/

http://westernvaluesproject.org/tax...hunting-energy-industry-over-hunters-anglers/

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/02/u...-but-hunters-cry-foul.html?smid=pl-share&_r=2

http://www.themudflats.net/archives/25891
 
Tristate posted: "Hey Hawkeye. When was the Mule deer plan written?"

Read the plan and find out for yourself. You keep talking about something that you know nothing about. Take some time to educate yourself before you jump into a discussion about a topic you know nothing about.

-Hawkeye-
 
"Anyone else want to tell me the date of creation for The Mule Deer Plan?"

Google it.

The "5 year" Mule Deer Plan changes every year or so anyway. So does it really matter?
 
I already provided him with the link to the Mule Deer Plan but he refuses to read anything or do anything to educate himself. It is much more fun to simply spout off about topics that he knows nothing about.

Tristate, let me help you out and point you in the right direction.

Step 1: Click on this link: https://wildlife.utah.gov/hunting/biggame/pdf/mule_deer_plan.pdf.

Step 2: Scroll down to page 2 of the document.

Step 3: Read paragraph B entitled "Dates Covered."

Step 4: Keep reading if you are interested in learning something about Utah Mule Deer Management Plan and what the "professionals" in Utah are trying to accomplish.

Step 5: Ponder the information that you read.

Step 6: Utilize the information you read in your future posts.

Good luck!

-Hawkeye-
 
Good so now we are clear Hawkeye that YOU perfectly well understood that you and elkfromabove want them to increase tags based on ONE good full year!

Why do I need to utilize this information in future posts. IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH MY PREVIOUS POSTS. I never argued what was or wasn't in the report. I just argued that you are too ignorant of wildlife management to support your position with it.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-03-16 AT 09:33AM (MST)[p]>Good so now we are clear
>Hawkeye that YOU perfectly well
>understood that you and elkfromabove
>want them to increase tags
>based on ONE good full
>year!


There you go Leech, spouting off again about assumptions.

And BTW Leech, we're going on SIX good full years!

Try educating yourself before you spout off on things you know nothing about. You make yourself sound really stupid.
 
Awww how cute, city boy still has a hard on for Hawkeyes.

ONE full year huh city boy? But I wouldn't expect some city boy from Houston Texas know anything about what's going on in the west anyway. Carry on.
 
Tristate posted: "Good so now we are clear Hawkeye that YOU perfectly well understood that you and elkfromabove want them to increase tags based on ONE good full year!"

Wrong again. I simply expected the DWR and the groups who drafted the management plan to follow it. After all, we are only one year into a five-year plan. They followed the plan in the past to cut tags when numbers were down and so now they should follow the same plan to modestly increase tags when numbers are up. It is really quite simple.

Why don't you put that supposed wildlife management degree and your vast experience to good use Please take some time to review the Utah Mule Deer Management Plan and offer the rest of us ignorant locals some insight on what you agree with and what you would do differently. And please don't come back with a suggestion to sell off all public lands, auction all deer tags to the highest bidder, and install ground blinds and corn feeders across the state. I look forward to reading your comments and learning from you.

-Hawkeye-
 
Muley73 seems to be spewing the PETA garbage. "Humans take too much" "Nature would have 100 bucks for 100 doe if the nasty humans didn't get involved". Par for the course though, as his type of thinking cut more hunters out of hunting than PETA ever has.

Tristate, you do realize that tags are based off a 3 year average of ratios and the current trend of each herd? A little more to managing a mule deer herd than there is to managing dinky dog deer.
 
"Tristate, you do realize that tags are based off a 3 year average of ratios and the current trend of each herd?"

THAT'S MY POINT! That's exactly what I am trying to tell Hawkeye and Elkfromabove. They are IGNORING the inception date of the Plan they keep picking tiny details out of and misusing. ONE GOOD FULL YEAR ISN'T A TREND. Professionals don't significantly alter a harvest plan with this species just because there has been one good year.
 
I'm dizzy from reading this, around and around and around...

Personally I thought the recommendations were spot on, having gone through so many BAD BAD BAD years of deer hunts and decilining herds, I felt like it was wise to not jump balls deep into what we could do and settle for a steady climb to what we want...just me though, and I'm no expert

https://www.facebook.com/strawberrybayoutfitters
 
Elk,

There weren't any insults in that post. Get some thicker skin or get off the internet.

When your average age of mortality is 18 months for all practical purposes YOU HAVE WHACKED ALL THE MATURE ONES.
 
Trippy,

Once again you prove to us your lack of intelligence. If you truly read the plan, attended the R.A.C. meetings you would have seen why they are doing what they do. They have averages that they go by. After 3 years of the same trend, they will do accordingly. If there is an emergency, they can act on that. With what they did this year, by increasing the tags in most units, they had POST HUNT BUCK numbers above the measures set. So where the plan calls for an increase, they increased tags. Some stayed the same. But when they increased the tag numbers, it was nothing crazy. Some called for 50 more tags. Some 100 tags and so on. If you wanted to read, and I now yo wont, there is a picture slide for you on the dwr websight that shows the numbers. But lets not read too much, we dont want to confuse you any more than you are now. I am sure we can get a picture book with pop ups and coloring pages to help explain more if needed. I will see what my kids can put together for you.
 
Its good to see you come around to my way of thinking. Next time don't just use the internet for trash talking but actually gain knowledge and help from it.

You are talking about you know the sky is blue and water is wet and some how you think that makes you smarter than everyone.

So if all that is true in your last post what are you Hawkeye, and elkfromabove crying about?
 
Yes sir, Tristate, the biologists have no data prior to the one year old plan. They have no idea as to counts prior to 2015 and they have no clue as to the trends. Are you really that naive?
 
My intelligence, or lack there of, isn't why your boyfriend Hawkeye or elkfromabove started posting here. SO WHAT DO YOU WANT?

Or is this just another thing you crybabies, who will never be happy, whine and whine and whine and whine about?


2-point,

When the plan changes the baseline to measure a trend changes. So by your rules and conservative management practices tag numbers shouldn't even be evaluated until December 2017. DON'T GO COOK THE BOOKS SO YOU CAN GET A DEER TAG.
 
2 point,
Not PETA , but a conservationist yes. Hunters should all be conservationists above all else.
 
Don't worry Tri I'm sure your guide can still find you a good buck if you don't spill your sippy cup.
 
Tristate, didn't you say you went to a university studying animal science? Maybe it is time to stop using the lacquer based paints. No one is cooking the books. If you don't understand how counts are compiled, harvest data analyzed, trends in production and survival identified and use that over a long history to analyze the necessary harvest needed to maintain objectives, then maybe it is time you step aside and let the professionals manage the herd with numbers they have compiled over decades.

Muley73, Call yourself whatever you want, but PETA's goal in reducing hunters mirrors your goal if you want 100 to 100 ratios. Good to know you are a conservationist and the hunter down the road who likes 20 to 100 ratios isn't. Pat yourself on the back.
 
No I didn't ever say I got a degree in animal science. You obviously don't listen and you obviously haven't got the slightest clue what data you should use to set a harvest objective. And you don't know what a trend is. Reading the states mule deer plan and having a subscription to muley crazy ain't gonna make you a professional.

By the way an animal science degree would prepare you very very very little to manage deer.
 
2 point,
I just asked what the natural balance was. I didn't say we have to follow it. We manage as hunters. I just feel the happy medium is higher that 10-20 buck per 100 does. There are plenty of ways to add oppurtunity outside the current box in which we manage. I'm all for oppurtuniy, just not above all else. Some want to hunt above all else, that is all that matters. That is not a responsible steward of the land or animals which is what all hunters should be. Having a tag in your pocket every single year is NOT a birth right. It's just not, to think that is foolish. Hunting is a recreational past time in this day and age. If the golf course is packed I may not be able to get a tee time on Saturday, even if it's a municipal course.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Jun-03-16
>AT 05:51?AM (MST)
>
>Elkfromabove,
>
>Would you be happy with a
>doe tag every year instead
>of a buck tag?
>
>Anyone else want to tell me
>the date of creation for
>The Mule Deer Plan?

We already had this doe question conversation and my answer now is the same as it was then. Yes, I would be happy with a doe tag every year instead of a buck tag as long as it were my decision and not something imposed on me by others.

The dates of the creation of The Mule Deer Plan:
Mule Deer Committee meetings:
Apr 22, 2014 - 5:00pm-8:30pm - 3.5 hours
Apr 29, 2014 - 5:00pm-8:30pm - 3.5 hours
Jun 17, 2014 - 5:00pm-8:30pm - 3.5 hours
Jul 01, 2014 - 5:00pm-8:30pm - 3.5 hours
Jul 08, 2014 - 5:00pm-8:30pm - 3.5 hours
Jul 22, 2014 - 5:00pm-8:30pm - 3.5 hours
Aug 07, 2014 - 10:00am-5:00pm - 7 hours
Aug 26, 2014 - 10:00am-5:00pm - 7 hours
Sep 16, 2014 - 10:00am-5:00pm - 7 hours
Total: 42 hours officially plus many hours of private reading of recommended studies and preparation of assigned presentations.

Oct ?, 2014 (Can't remember date) - Reading and signing off of final plan draft per 2 emails. All Committee members signed.

Nov, 2014 (various dates)- DWR presentations to RAC's. Approved by all RAC's.

Dec 01, 2014 - Wildlife Board Meeting - Approval of Plan.
 
>Good so now we are clear
>Hawkeye that YOU perfectly well
>understood that you and elkfromabove
>want them to increase tags
>based on ONE good full
>year!
>
>
Hawkeye and I want them to increase tags based on ONE good full year? How did you come up with that?
 
>Elk,
>
>There weren't any insults in that
>post. Get some thicker
>skin or get off the
>internet.
>
>When your average age of mortality
>is 18 months for
>all practical purposes YOU HAVE
>WHACKED ALL THE MATURE ONES.
>

Average age of mortality is 18 months? That information comes from where?

And even if it's true, how does that translate into "YOU HAVE WHACKED ALL THE MATURE ONE"?
 
I have lived and worked in areas where all they did was manage for opportunity and maximize harvest.

I remember aging deer at a meat locker in one of these regions. The two years in a row I aged deer there 1 DEER CAME IN OVER 18 MONTHS OF AGE! Out of hundreds of dead deer there was 1. And you can't argue that aging by teeth isn't accurate because with deer at 18 months we bat 1000.

Within five years after that the state instituted mandatory antler restrictions. The average age of mortality now sits around 3.5 years.
 
>Do you want them to increase
>tags? If you don't
>I apologize for the confusion.
>

Yes, we want them to increase tags on SOME of the General Units which is also what the DWR wants, but not based on ONE good year as you stated and want others to believe. It's based on the unit 3 year B/D averages and trends, AND the unit population numbers and trends with considerations for hunter access, deer migration and other mitigating factors, which is what the Mule Deer Management Plan calls for. Apology for the confusion accepted!
 
You don't have a 3 year average or a "trend" yet that applies. You have one full fawning and harvest season and you are just starting your second fawning season.

You are cooking the books with data pre-2014 to support your bloodlust for more dead immature deer.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-04-16 AT 11:47PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jun-04-16 AT 11:42?PM (MST)

>You don't have a 3 year
>average or a "trend" yet
>that applies. You have
>one full fawning and harvest
>season and you are just
>starting your second fawning season.
>
>
>You are cooking the books with
>data pre-2014 to support your
>bloodlust for more dead immature
>deer.

C'mon, do your homework, so we can have a REAL discussion instead of a one-sided shouting match filled with innuendoes, false accusations, false statements and rude replies.

Here, I'll help you out:
www.wildlife.utah.gov/public_meetings/rac/2016-04_rac_packet.pdf (pages 6 & 16) (Note, my name doesn't appear on the document anywhere, but the folks at the DWR would be surprised that they are "cooking the books to support their bloodlust for more dead immature deer".

FWIW, the DWR has been biologically managing and tracking small units since at least 1955 and the current units since at least 1994.
 
Well we know two deer stepped off the ark and there are several hundred thousand now so let's kill all of them because obviously that's a good 8000 year trend.


Elkfromabove,

You aren't behaving like a biologist. You are acting like a child with Halloween candy. Let the pros do their job and don't be so willing to eat up one year's gains.
 
Pregnant Bucks??

Y'all deserve exactly where this is headed.




"If the DWR was just doing its job, and
wildlife and hunting were the actual focus,
none of this process would even matter.
But that is not the focus or the goal in any
of this. The current DWR regime, and
SFW were born out of wildlife declines,
and are currently operated and funded
under that paradigm. Those 200 Expo
tags would not even be worth anything if
the focus was where it was supposed to
be, and wildlife and tags were plentiful.
But under the current business model,
that is how the money and power is
generated. It is generated through the
rising "value"(monitization) of a declining
resource. A resource that is supposed to
be being beneficially managed for the
masses that own that resource, ie. US.
The problem is obvious, hedging is not a
long term sustainable strategy, and
others have to lose, for some to win. In
this case it is us, the many, and our
resources, that are being forced to lose,
because there is a minority who's power
and money is derived from our loses."

LONETREE 3/15/16
 
>I have lived and worked in
>areas where all they did
>was manage for opportunity and
>maximize harvest.
>
>I remember aging deer at a
>meat locker in one of
>these regions. The two
>years in a row I
>aged deer there 1 DEER
>CAME IN OVER 18 MONTHS
>OF AGE! Out of
>hundreds of dead deer there
>was 1. And you
>can't argue that aging by
>teeth isn't accurate because with
>deer at 18 months we
>bat 1000.
>
>Within five years after that the
>state instituted mandatory antler restrictions.
> The average age of
>mortality now sits around 3.5
>years.

So, what's your point?
 
Most Idahoans oppose the point system but there are politicians who have stated the they "don't care what the voters want" and they are pushing the point system. Typical politicians...
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-05-16 AT 08:22PM (MST)[p]>Well we know two deer stepped
>off the ark and there
>are several hundred thousand now
>so let's kill all of
>them because obviously that's a
>good 8000 year trend.
>
>
>Elkfromabove,
>
>You aren't behaving like a biologist.
> You are acting like
>a child with Halloween candy.
> Let the pros do
>their job and don't be
>so willing to eat up
>one year's gains.

Seems like you're a slow learner. I'm sorry for that! You still haven't quite grasped the idea that you're the only one using the words "ALL" and "ONE YEAR" when it comes to harvesting deer even though you've been told and shown otherwise several times. In any case, may I suggest you forward your post to Justin Shannon, DWR and maybe Ashley Green, DWR, the chair and facilitator of the Mule Deer Committee and Greg Sheehan, the DWR Director and let them know how you feel about their Mule Deer Plan. And it might help to forward it to the Wildlife Board members also so that they know you don't want ANY opportunity deer hunts going on, ONLY trophy deer hunts. I'm sure they'd love to hear from you!

BTW, thanks for the compliment, but I was thinking more like how it feels Christmas morning, but I guess Halloween will do. In any case, I didn't draw a buck deer tag, which is just as well, since I can't hunt until after Nov 4 and would have had to turn it in anyway. But I think it's great that 90,950 deer hunters get to feel that "child with Halloween candy" moment come opening morning of their hunts. Ain't it great that 4,400 more of them can experience that moment this year? I'm sure they appreciate the opportunity, and maybe they'll want to do it again next year.
 
Do you know how to read? You just wasted all that time typing junk that assumes I believe a bunch of stuff that I don't.

Let me clear it up for you. I don't have a problem with the mule deer plan. Just a problem with the public manipulating numbers for their own greed. Second, I am not for picking "trophy hunting" over "opportunity". Now that you're newest post is useless why not try thinking?
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-06-16 AT 01:57AM (MST)[p]>Yeah a bad car accident that
>you keep watching giant buck
>after giant bull walk away
>from.

More like a bad car accident that you keep watching don's ho's and corrupt money pour out of. Maybe a couple dozen circus clowns too.


*****************************************************
Greenhorns educate yourselves. Wherever SFW goes, scandals and corruption follow. Write your legislators:

http://kutv.com/news/local/allegations-of-corruption-surround-utah-hungtin-and-conservation-expo

https://www.cascwild.org/don-peay-the-man-who-would-be-king-baron/

http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs...ares-north-american-hunting-model-“socialism”

http://www.standard.net/Recreation/...16-Western-Hunting-and-Conservation-Expo.html

http://www.mtbullypulpit.org/2012/06/pox-on-fox.html

http://www.thewildlifenews.com/2013...on-essentially-buy-utah-division-of-wildlife/

http://westernvaluesproject.org/tax...hunting-energy-industry-over-hunters-anglers/

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/02/u...-but-hunters-cry-foul.html?smid=pl-share&_r=2

http://www.themudflats.net/archives/25891
 
Zim,

You do realize you take part in threads which bash expo and "wealth tags" and proclaim they don't do any good but come over here to a thread where people are claiming deer numbers are up and complain the state isn't raising tag numbers fast enough??????????
 
A ROUND AND A ROUND I GO AND WHERE I STOP NOBODY KNOWS.

This blog is getting ridiculous. I do have to agree with most of what Tri. has to say. You other guys remind me of our politicians and the young generation of the ENTITLED GROUP - give me! give me! give me! To heck with the future.
 
Come on Cannonball. You and I have disagreed in the past but I always respected you and your comments. Don't lower yourself to the level of agreeing with Tristate. Have some standards. ;-)

I am not going to speak for everyone on this thread but I certainly have not argued for massive tag increases that would jeopardize the future of our herds. That is simply not true. Go back and re-read the posts. I simply stated that there is plenty of room to balance the interests of trophy hunting and opportunity hunting. In fact, that is exactly what the mule deer plan attempts to do. For guys like Tristate to suggest that the modest increase in tags that was proposed by the DWR this year pursuant to their Mule Deer Managament Plan somehow puts out herds at risk is laughable. Most everyone on these threads, including me, would happily sit on the sidelines if needed to protect our herds from impending disaster. Fortunately, that is not the current reality. Thanks a series of mild winters and some good management practices our herds are on the upswing, and as a result, the DWR proposed a conservative, modest increase in tags.

I will state it again, there is plenty of room in the middle to balance the interests of trophy hunters and opportunity hunters. All it takes is a little common sense and compromise. In my opinion, the DWR is doing a pretty good job in that respect.

-Hawkeye-
 
Hawkeye,
I have never said I disagree with the DWR giving a tag increase. My problem has been with the people that say that ain't enough.
 
Are we proposing increasing doe tags??




"If the DWR was just doing its job, and
wildlife and hunting were the actual focus,
none of this process would even matter.
But that is not the focus or the goal in any
of this. The current DWR regime, and
SFW were born out of wildlife declines,
and are currently operated and funded
under that paradigm. Those 200 Expo
tags would not even be worth anything if
the focus was where it was supposed to
be, and wildlife and tags were plentiful.
But under the current business model,
that is how the money and power is
generated. It is generated through the
rising "value"(monitization) of a declining
resource. A resource that is supposed to
be being beneficially managed for the
masses that own that resource, ie. US.
The problem is obvious, hedging is not a
long term sustainable strategy, and
others have to lose, for some to win. In
this case it is us, the many, and our
resources, that are being forced to lose,
because there is a minority who's power
and money is derived from our loses."

LONETREE 3/15/16
 
Tri is pretty radical with his views, but this one I'm in line with
his thinking.

For radical thinking here is one of my thoughts. There are so many barren doe right now. Double or triple the number who can hunt and make it either sex hunt then shut the season down until the numbers come back. Ask the hunters to assist in not shooting does with fawns. Predator control would take a priority during the year(s) of shut down.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-06-16 AT 08:48PM (MST)[p]>Do you know how to read?
> You just wasted all
>that time typing junk that
>assumes I believe a bunch
>of stuff that I don't.
>
>
>Let me clear it up for
>you. I don't have
>a problem with the mule
>deer plan. Just a
>problem with the public manipulating
>numbers for their own greed.
> Second, I am not
>for picking "trophy hunting" over
>"opportunity". Now that you're
>newest post is useless why
>not try thinking?

Dah! You don't know when you're being played? Your sorry attempt to insult/degrade/embarrass me (Yeh, I know, it's not an insult, even though you intended it to be or you wouldn't have used it.) by referring to my view of deer management as a "child with Halloween candy" is as easily viewed as a compliment if the intent is viewed as such. It all depends on your agenda. With your agenda, it's a negative. With my agenda, it's a positive.

The same scenario could be said of all your labeling, namecalling, rhetoric and stories. It depends on what your prime agenda is. A person who wants to hunt a large antlered/horned big game animal to the point that he/she tries to manipulate numbers for their own agenda is just as "greedy"/"whinny"/"childish"/"entitled"/"rude"/etc. as a person who would rather hunt smaller-antlered/horned big game animals more often and tries to manipulate the numbers accordingly. And, as long as those numbers are biologically sound, which they are in this plan, hunting bucks will not impact the future of the herds. "Trophy" hunting is NOT ethically or biologically or financially or legally or technologically or socially superior to "Opportunity" hunting and those who view it as such are "Snobs", "Rude", "High & Mighty", "Cliquish", "Snubby-nosed"; you know, all the names you called the in-crowd in high school. See, anyone can use your tactics.

Of course you're picking trophy hunting over opportunity, cause you believe opportunity hunting is dangerous to the sustainability of the herds and the sport, trophy hunts are financing the DWR, you want ALL tags to be auction tags and your personal business is centered on trophy animals. You can claim all you want to that you are neutral, but you haven't once advocated for an increase in permits, only decreases. You'll grudgingly accept increases, but you won't advocate or promote them.

Now, for those of you following this, I certainly don't expect my words or Hawkeye's or WW's or your words to change Tristate's mind or tactics and I really don't care whether it does or not., but I hope this puts you on notice that he's good at throwing out little negative snipets, words and phrases that many of you don't pay much attention to in order to get some kind of traction that allows him to continue making degrading posts and drive or keep people from posting on the internet. (He's tried to shut me up several times.) Do your homework, in this case, print and read the Mule Deer Management Plan (including much of the Literature Cited), and make up your own mind how it should be administered. But don't just take the word of someone who likely hasn't even read it or doesn't really understand it if he/she has. From this point on, I'll just refer you and him to written data, most of it boring as H***, but important to this thread. (Edited: You might want to include some of the Literature Cited on Pages 23-26 of the plan. I especially found the Freeman, et al 2014 buck to doe ratio study (page 23) was an eye-opener.)

Lee
 
>Zim,
>
>You do realize you take part
>in threads which bash expo
>and "wealth tags" and proclaim
>they don't do any good
>but come over here to
>a thread where people are
>claiming deer numbers are up
>and complain the state isn't
>raising tag numbers fast enough??????????
>

As the OP's subject clearly states, this thread is to thank UNSUCC guys with 20 points, like me, for 20 years of donations. Do you have 20 Utah deer points?

On top of that, I made zero comments with regards to the state either raising or lowering tag numbers. I'm just spectating while sitting in the gridlocked traffic caused by the clown car accident.


*****************************************************
Greenhorns educate yourselves. Wherever SFW goes, scandals and corruption follow. Write your legislators:

http://kutv.com/news/local/allegations-of-corruption-surround-utah-hungtin-and-conservation-expo

https://www.cascwild.org/don-peay-the-man-who-would-be-king-baron/

http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs...ares-north-american-hunting-model-“socialism”

http://www.standard.net/Recreation/...16-Western-Hunting-and-Conservation-Expo.html

http://www.mtbullypulpit.org/2012/06/pox-on-fox.html

http://www.thewildlifenews.com/2013...on-essentially-buy-utah-division-of-wildlife/

http://westernvaluesproject.org/tax...hunting-energy-industry-over-hunters-anglers/

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/02/u...-but-hunters-cry-foul.html?smid=pl-share&_r=2

http://www.themudflats.net/archives/25891
 
Wait a minute Zim. You expect us to believe you have twenty points and can't get a deer tag? There is a big difference in being selective and saying there aren't enough deer tags.
 
>Wait a minute Zim. You
>expect us to believe you
>have twenty points and can't
>get a deer tag?
>There is a big difference
>in being selective and saying
>there aren't enough deer tags.
>

exactly!!!
 
>Tri is pretty radical with his
>views, but this one I'm
>in line with
>his thinking.
>
>For radical thinking here is one
>of my thoughts. There
>are so many barren doe
>right now. Double or
>triple the number who can
>hunt and make it either
>sex hunt then shut the
>season down until the numbers
>come back. Ask the
>hunters to assist in not
>shooting does with fawns.
>Predator control would take a
>priority during the year(s) of
>shut down.

Or we could just make all the units like Antelope Island and issue only two deer tags, one public draw tag and one Conservation Organization auction tag per unit in order for DWR to meet their $81M or $82M budget. Can you imagine how big some of those deer would get if we allowed all of them to live 5 or 6 years? We'd have a lock on the world's record and we'd be the envy of every mule deer hunter around and they would flock to their computers in countless numbers to apply for the draw tag. And the auction tags would have maximum value and the future of hunting would be assured.
 
Elkfromabove, if that's what qualifies as logic for you then you will make a wonderful ex-wife someday.
 
73145utahpointsimagejpg.jpg


Are you the deer police?


*****************************************************
Greenhorns educate yourselves. Wherever SFW goes, scandals and corruption follow. Write your legislators:

http://kutv.com/news/local/allegations-of-corruption-surround-utah-hungtin-and-conservation-expo

https://www.cascwild.org/don-peay-the-man-who-would-be-king-baron/

http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs...ares-north-american-hunting-model-“socialism”

http://www.standard.net/Recreation/...16-Western-Hunting-and-Conservation-Expo.html

http://www.mtbullypulpit.org/2012/06/pox-on-fox.html

http://www.thewildlifenews.com/2013...on-essentially-buy-utah-division-of-wildlife/

http://westernvaluesproject.org/tax...hunting-energy-industry-over-hunters-anglers/

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/02/u...-but-hunters-cry-foul.html?smid=pl-share&_r=2

http://www.themudflats.net/archives/25891
 
"Are you the deer police?"


Nope. And I'm not a whiney fiddle player either. Go look for sympathy in the dictionary.
 
>
73145utahpointsimagejpg.jpg

>
>Are you the deer police?
>
>
>*****************************************************
>Greenhorns educate yourselves. Wherever SFW
>goes, scandals and corruption follow.
> Write your legislators:
>
>http://kutv.com/news/local/allegations-of-corruption-surround-utah-hungtin-and-conservation-expo
>
>https://www.cascwild.org/don-peay-the-man-who-would-be-king-baron/
>
>http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs...ares-north-american-hunting-model-“socialism”
>
>http://www.standard.net/Recreation/...16-Western-Hunting-and-Conservation-Expo.html
>
>http://www.mtbullypulpit.org/2012/06/pox-on-fox.html
>
>http://www.thewildlifenews.com/2013...on-essentially-buy-utah-division-of-wildlife/
>
>http://westernvaluesproject.org/tax...hunting-energy-industry-over-hunters-anglers/
>
>http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/02/u...-but-hunters-cry-foul.html?smid=pl-share&_r=2
>
>http://www.themudflats.net/archives/25891

He never said he did not believe that you had 20 deer points... Re-read his post...
 
>He never said he did not
>believe that you had 20
>deer points... Re-read his post...

WTF???


>Wait a minute Zim. You
>expect us to believe you
>have twenty points and can't
>get a deer tag?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
WTF are you talking about??? I don't need to ?reread? a dam thing.


>You do realize you take part
>in threads which bash expo
>and "wealth tags" and proclaim
>they don't do any good
>but come over here to
>a thread where people are
>claiming deer numbers are up
>and complain the state isn't
>raising tag numbers fast enough??????????


Now once again, I'll repeat I made zero comments with regards to the state either raising or lowering tag numbers. If so please quote me and show me where you are shoveling your BS from. As I said, I'm just spectating while sitting in the gridlocked traffic caused by the clown car accident.
And once again, I'm going to repeat my simple question. This time to both of you:
As the OP's subject clearly states, this thread is to thank UNSUCC guys with 20 points, like me, for 20 years of donations. Do you have 20 Utah deer points?



*****************************************************
Greenhorns educate yourselves. Wherever SFW goes, scandals and corruption follow. Write your legislators:

http://kutv.com/news/local/allegations-of-corruption-surround-utah-hungtin-and-conservation-expo

https://www.cascwild.org/don-peay-the-man-who-would-be-king-baron/

http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs...ares-north-american-hunting-model-“socialism”

http://www.standard.net/Recreation/...16-Western-Hunting-and-Conservation-Expo.html

http://www.mtbullypulpit.org/2012/06/pox-on-fox.html

http://www.thewildlifenews.com/2013...on-essentially-buy-utah-division-of-wildlife/

http://westernvaluesproject.org/tax...hunting-energy-industry-over-hunters-anglers/

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/02/u...-but-hunters-cry-foul.html?smid=pl-share&_r=2

http://www.themudflats.net/archives/25891
 
Zim,

I believed you had twenty deer points. That still doesn't mean you can't draw a deer tag.

Did you put in for a general unit this year?

By the way you can't really believe this thread was set up to thank you? You really aren't that dense. Something tells me if you have twenty deer points your old enough to have been patronized at some point and remember it.
 
>>He never said he did not
>>believe that you had 20
>>deer points... Re-read his post...
>
>WTF???
>
>
>>Wait a minute Zim. You
>>expect us to believe you
>>have twenty points and can't
>>get a deer tag?
>
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>WTF are you talking about???
>I don't need to ?reread?
>a dam thing.
>
>
>>You do realize you take part
>>in threads which bash expo
>>and "wealth tags" and proclaim
>>they don't do any good
>>but come over here to
>>a thread where people are
>>claiming deer numbers are up
>>and complain the state isn't
>>raising tag numbers fast enough??????????
>
>
>Now once again, I'll repeat I
>made zero comments with regards
>to the state either raising
>or lowering tag numbers. If
>so please quote me and
>show me where you are
>shoveling your BS from.
>As I said, I'm just
>spectating while sitting in the
>gridlocked traffic caused by the
>clown car accident.
>And once again, I'm going to
>repeat my simple question.
>This time to both of
>you:
>As the OP's subject clearly states,
>this thread is to thank
>UNSUCC guys with 20 points,
>like me, for 20 years
>of donations. Do you have
>20 Utah deer points?
>
>
>
>*****************************************************
>Greenhorns educate yourselves. Wherever SFW
>goes, scandals and corruption follow.
> Write your legislators:
>
>http://kutv.com/news/local/allegations-of-corruption-surround-utah-hungtin-and-conservation-expo
>
>https://www.cascwild.org/don-peay-the-man-who-would-be-king-baron/
>
>http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs...ares-north-american-hunting-model-“socialism”
>
>http://www.standard.net/Recreation/...16-Western-Hunting-and-Conservation-Expo.html
>
>http://www.mtbullypulpit.org/2012/06/pox-on-fox.html
>
>http://www.thewildlifenews.com/2013...on-essentially-buy-utah-division-of-wildlife/
>
>http://westernvaluesproject.org/tax...hunting-energy-industry-over-hunters-anglers/
>
>http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/02/u...-but-hunters-cry-foul.html?smid=pl-share&_r=2
>
>http://www.themudflats.net/archives/25891

Look rice patty there are plenty of units in Utah to draw with much than 20 points. You could have stopped staring at this "clown car accident" years ago so I don't feel sorry for you...

Ohh but wait you want to draw a deer tag in a unit that has low tag #'s with high opportunity for a great buck with less effort scouting time for someone who can't scout easily ie you... Your the only one staring at a "clown car accident" and its in the mirror...
 
C CLEANER???




"If the DWR was just doing its job, and
wildlife and hunting were the actual focus,
none of this process would even matter.
But that is not the focus or the goal in any
of this. The current DWR regime, and
SFW were born out of wildlife declines,
and are currently operated and funded
under that paradigm. Those 200 Expo
tags would not even be worth anything if
the focus was where it was supposed to
be, and wildlife and tags were plentiful.
But under the current business model,
that is how the money and power is
generated. It is generated through the
rising "value"(monitization) of a declining
resource. A resource that is supposed to
be being beneficially managed for the
masses that own that resource, ie. US.
The problem is obvious, hedging is not a
long term sustainable strategy, and
others have to lose, for some to win. In
this case it is us, the many, and our
resources, that are being forced to lose,
because there is a minority who's power
and money is derived from our loses."

LONETREE 3/15/16
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-08-16 AT 02:55PM (MST)[p]>Elkfromabove, if that's what qualifies as
>logic for you then you
>will make a wonderful ex-wife
>someday.

You're absolutely right, as always! How could I have not known my meager attempt at satire would be taken for logic. I see now that Cannonball's idea, along with your idea of auctioning every tag are far superior deer management ideas that will insure the future of hunting. My apologies, Your Higness!

PS. Your general insight is also amazing! How did you know I was gay, when I haven't yet come out even to my lovely wife of 50 years, my six children and 16 grandchildren. But thanks to you, it'll now be easier. I appreciate it.
 
>Zim,
>
>I believed you had twenty deer
>points. That still doesn't
>mean you can't draw a
>deer tag.
>
>Did you put in for a
>general unit this year?

No but the state should replace the <1% premium welfare tags funneled to SFW with 500 general tags.


>By the way you can't really
>believe this thread was set
>up to thank you?
>You really aren't that dense.
> Something tells me if
>you have twenty deer points
>your old enough to have
>been patronized at some point
>and remember it.

If this is a serious question, you are not a step behind me. You are 3 or 4 steps behind me. Maybe even 5.


*****************************************************
Greenhorns educate yourselves. Wherever SFW goes, scandals and corruption follow. Write your legislators:

http://kutv.com/news/local/allegations-of-corruption-surround-utah-hungtin-and-conservation-expo

https://www.cascwild.org/don-peay-the-man-who-would-be-king-baron/

http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs...ares-north-american-hunting-model-“socialism”

http://www.standard.net/Recreation/...16-Western-Hunting-and-Conservation-Expo.html

http://www.mtbullypulpit.org/2012/06/pox-on-fox.html

http://www.thewildlifenews.com/2013...on-essentially-buy-utah-division-of-wildlife/

http://westernvaluesproject.org/tax...hunting-energy-industry-over-hunters-anglers/

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/02/u...-but-hunters-cry-foul.html?smid=pl-share&_r=2

http://www.themudflats.net/archives/25891
 
>No but the state should replace
>the <1% premium welfare tags
>funneled to SFW with 500
>general tags.
>
>

Why? Why should the state change distribution just to satisfy your wants? I want you to make a logical argument to support your self centered 20 year search for a handout. Why is your wants more important than anyone else's.
 
>
>>No but the state should replace
>>the <1% premium welfare tags
>>funneled to SFW with 500
>>general tags.
>>
>>
>
>Why? Why should the state
>change distribution just to satisfy
>your wants? I want
>you to make a logical
>argument to support your self
>centered 20 year search for
>a handout. Why is
>your wants more important than
>anyone else's.

X2 ^^^ That would be because he wants high odds on killing a great buck with little scouting/work on his end... Like I said before the only one staring at a "clown car wreck" is Zimney looking in the mirror...
 
>C CLEANER???
>
>
>
>
>"If the DWR was just doing
>its job, and
>wildlife and hunting were the actual
>focus,
>none of this process would even
>matter.
>But that is not the focus
>or the goal in any
>
>of this. The current DWR regime,
>and
>SFW were born out of wildlife
>declines,
>and are currently operated and funded
>
>under that paradigm. Those 200 Expo
>
>tags would not even be worth
>anything if
>the focus was where it was
>supposed to
>be, and wildlife and tags were
>plentiful.
>But under the current business model,
>
>that is how the money and
>power is
>generated. It is generated through the
>
>rising "value"(monitization) of a declining
>resource. A resource that is supposed
>to
>be being beneficially managed for the
>
>masses that own that resource, ie.
>US.
>The problem is obvious, hedging is
>not a
>long term sustainable strategy, and
>others have to lose, for some
>to win. In
>this case it is us, the
>many, and our
>resources, that are being forced to
>lose,
>because there is a minority who's
>power
>and money is derived from our
>loses."
>
>LONETREE 3/15/16

As the OP I can clearly say that my point was simple. In 20yrs, the deer herd isn't where it was when this started. However look at what has changed in 20yrs. The system was set based on conditions 20yrs ago. Back in the day when you had to front money without the ease of drop menus. Back before $fw owned the WB. Before N. Utah was locked, and S. Utah became a for profit enterprise. 20 yrs ago a guy probably thought he had a decent chance to draw that tag in 5 or 6 years. Not 20. Tri and Tikka, the twins of dumbazzery, like to talk about handouts. That guys like Zim want something for nothing. Zim has paid $200 for that UNSUCC. letter over the years. How much did $fw pay for any tag? NOTHING. $fw entire business model is getting something for nothing. Those 300+ tags that $fw and the orgs get every year COST THEM NOTHING. They take OUR MONEY, in the form of a voucher, sell it, then give us some back. TRI and TIKKA, when you get your tax return did you get something for nothing? As for the "I want it now, screw the future" BS, the entire CWMU system is based on that. Same as these tags the "orgs" get. Denny isn't contributing to the state for 20 years with nothing in return, he wants his tag every year. Same as the guys who buy tags at Deseret et al every year. THey want it EVERY YEAR. They can then go to the "conservation" orgs and push for the "those selfish basterdddds" to sit home because that is good for the general units. The general units that they don't hunt, and in truth would love to replace with statewide LE.
I am old enough to have seen both in the 80's and 90's what one or two big winters can do to a deer herd. No amount of UNSUCC. letters can stop that from happening, and the current "explosion" in deer numbers is due more to the easy winters, than anything the ORGS have done in 20 years.

If you believe that sitting out seasons is the only way to "save the deer herd", then put your money where your mouth is. Turn your tag in, sit out this year. Your not morally superior because you talk about sitting out, or not drawing, all the while your sitting on a tag. As for TRI, we can't handle the Resident demand for tags, and since your so concerned, I know you too will not hunt Utah in order to save the herd!

At least Zim is honest, he wants to hunt, same as me. Its the TRI and TIKKA crowd that want the same, but feel superior for demanding WE sit out. Actions speak louder than words boys, Zim posted a pic of his points chart, lets see a pick of you all turning in those tags and just applying for bonus points. Afterall, "its for the survival of the mule deer"!!


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
Hossblur, with all due respect, and I do mean WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, you are a full of shinola.

Your hatred of SFW is clear. Show me where the state GIVES them 300 tags. I want to see a photo where someone from the state is giving someone from SFW an envelope filled with big game tags. The truth is SFW is responsible for DISTRIBUTION of a limited number of tags. The awarded recipients of the tags STILL HAVE TO PAY THE STATE OF UTAH THE SAME PRICE AS YOU FOR THE TAG! IN FACT IT IS LESS THAN %1 OF THE BIG GAME TAGS IN THE STATE. Tell me how a distribution plan for less than %1 of your state's big game tags is responsible for ALL of your deer hunting troubles. I want SOMEONE to make a valid argument how a distribution method of tags is keeping them from going hunting.

Zim is hung up on the fact that he thinks twenty points ENTITLES him to hunt for the biggest deer anywhere he wants. Tuff crap. That ain't how it works in big boy land. He could get a deer tag if he wanted one but he is a horn hunter and he is holding out for a dream tag. Some horn hunters sad story about not getting his dream tag isn't evidence that a distribution method has ruined hunting.

The truth is that the draw system is a WELFARE system. We all are participating in it. ME INCLUDED. But the tags are vastly undervalued for all of us sitting around for a handout. THAT IS HOW IT IS. Grow up Hossblur.
 
Zim responded to my post. I didn't even think of anyone in particular when I made it, but I was aware there were 20 point guys.

But again, here is where you go off the deep end. I know Byron Batemans kid. I did the drywall work on 3 of his houses. I went to jr high and high school with his wife and high school with him. We all worked for the same contractor for decades. I don't hate him. Don't hate his old man. We disagree obviously on the future of hunting in this state, but I would sit around his back yard and drink beer any night. I don't hate JMO, I worked for his dad for years, and around a ton of the guys who currently constitute a lot of $fw. They are all good dudes, but I believe wrong(obviously they think I am) I as a scheptic am always cautious of anyone who is saving something, "for a little donation". Whether that be Jim and Tammy Faye Baker, or THE DON. I don't pay my mechanic up front, don't pay my landscaper up front, or for that matter my taxidermist. I simply point out that what $fw sold itself as in its beginning, and at the time it got that golden meal ticket from the DWR, and what it actually is doing, and has done, are not even similar. As a business owner, I call BS when $fw cant produce financials to back there claims. I bet you can, I know I can. I live 10 minutes from AI, and I know that the locals didn't want that tag either, but $fw did as a reward for deep pocket contributors. You are simply just wrong about all of that.

As for pictures of actual paper tags in an envelope, we have electronics now so that would be hard to produce, but $fw does get those tags(tag numbers), they sell them, and take the profit. I didn't claim the state didn't make the face value of the tag, but $fw didn't pay that face value, they paid nothing. I can't sell my tag to the higheset bidder after I pay the face value. So your free market theory falls on its face there. You can't be free market in a closed market. But $fw to me on this one is just the latest name. I didn't want RMEF, or DU or NRA or anyone that is a middle man involved. Setting up a tag auction can be done in 10 minutes by the state, and they could profit 100%. So your wrong.

As for the draw being welfare. You might have a theoretical point, but they aren't all open to the highest bidder under the same criteria. I have waiting periods, and limits on species and weapons. If it was straight up 90,000 deer tags to the highest bidder, regardless of points or wait times or weapon or species, then great. But that's not how it is, you know it, so your wrong there too.
 
Show me anything Hossblur. An email, a tax filing, a receipt, a contract, ANYTHING. It doesn't exist. You know why. SFW doesn't take state tags. They don't get tags. They don't print tags. You keep talking about who's wrong and I'm just talking about reality.

The reality is they take part in operating a distribution model for the state that you don't like.

I don't have a problem with you or anyone else not liking the distribution model the state has picked. But I do have a problem when people start exaggerating the effects of it and lying about the realities of said model.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-13-16 AT 10:14PM (MST)[p]Tristate, you have a problem when people start exaggerating? Classical. Just for fun, would you post another photo of what a "real audit" looks like?

-Hawkeye-
 
>SFW doesn't
>take state tags. They
>don't get tags. They
>don't print tags.

No, they print cold hard cash.


*****************************************************
Greenhorns educate yourselves. Wherever SFW goes, scandals and corruption follow. Write your legislators:

http://kutv.com/news/local/allegations-of-corruption-surround-utah-hungtin-and-conservation-expo

https://www.cascwild.org/don-peay-the-man-who-would-be-king-baron/

http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs...ares-north-american-hunting-model-“socialism”

http://www.standard.net/Recreation/...16-Western-Hunting-and-Conservation-Expo.html

http://www.mtbullypulpit.org/2012/06/pox-on-fox.html

http://www.thewildlifenews.com/2013...on-essentially-buy-utah-division-of-wildlife/

http://westernvaluesproject.org/tax...hunting-energy-industry-over-hunters-anglers/

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/02/u...-but-hunters-cry-foul.html?smid=pl-share&_r=2

http://www.themudflats.net/archives/25891
 
Zim,

If they print cold hard cash all of the DWR's fiscal problems are over. You should pray that they do.


Hawkeye,

I know you hated that pic. It made people finally see you were full of crap when talking about RMEF's "independent audit". If you haven't noticed Hawkeye people ain't buying this hate crap you and these other guys are shoveling around here anymore. Even that stupid slanted TV story has disappeared quicker than a lit fart. Time for you to go be creative and quit beating dead horses. Keep this up and you'll be living in a house with forty cats.
 
>Show me anything Hossblur. An
>email, a tax filing, a
>receipt, a contract, ANYTHING.
>It doesn't exist. You
>know why. SFW doesn't
>take state tags. They
>don't get tags. They
>don't print tags. You
>keep talking about who's wrong
>and I'm just talking about
>reality.
>
>The reality is they take part
>in operating a distribution model
>for the state that you
>don't like.
>
>I don't have a problem with
>you or anyone else not
>liking the distribution model the
>state has picked. But
>I do have a problem
>when people start exaggerating the
>effects of it and lying
>about the realities of said
>model.

Have you been to the expo? The DWR mans all the tag booths. $fw doesn't do anything other than use a number generator to come up with numbers. For that they get millions. The state pays for the advertising, the county and city pay for a huge chunk of the space. The Dwr mans the whole process. So yes, technically your right. THE DON doesn't spin the hopper and pull out a ping pong ball, call out the number then hand that guy an actual tag. Which proves even further just how little $fw does for the money it sucks in, if they did a little bingo style, or draw a name out of a hat, at least there would be drama. But like I said, so what? I don't want to pay RMEF do use their random number generator.

Again TRI, and you keep wanting to say its just 1% of the tags. If one of those tags went to Zim, he would be out of the draw next year, and in a draw system that was never supposed to be a once in a lifetime for all species, one more tag actually does help it out. If the orgs want to have their parties and banquets and expos, great. They can go BUY tags from the CWMU's on the open market and sell them to whoever they want for whatever they can get. But being granted access(since TRI doesn't like the idea of saying tags) to tags, at ZERO upfront cost, which then then can sell for $375,000, of which the state gets the face value of the tag and a "promise" of some of the rest is a system set up soley to benefit the few at the expense of the state(aka the majority). Remember TRI, "its just one tag" on AI is 505 of the tags, half of the tags available. You want to see real money in a real open market. Put that AI tag up for auction. Let $fw, RMEF, MDF, whoever bid on it in a timed auction, put a rider on it that ANY resale the state gets 25% of the profits for allow the sale. Let RMEF pay the state $300k for the tag, let them sell it for whatever they want, then send the state 25% of that price too. Let the orgs play in a lottery/auction. Set up the system the way it should be, in which the state wins up front, and on the back end. The whole point is for the state to win, not Denny Austad, not DU, etc. It is especially not supposed to hurt guys in the draws by sucking out tags. Tri, in construction we bid, in your business you price?, but either way its an open market. Let the orgs COMPETE, afterall competition is good for the market right?


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-15-16 AT 12:32PM (MST)[p]>>Show me anything Hossblur. An
>>email, a tax filing, a
>>receipt, a contract, ANYTHING.
>>It doesn't exist. You
>>know why. SFW doesn't
>>take state tags. They
>>don't get tags. They
>>don't print tags. You
>>keep talking about who's wrong
>>and I'm just talking about
>>reality.
>>
>>The reality is they take part
>>in operating a distribution model
>>for the state that you
>>don't like.
>>
>>I don't have a problem with
>>you or anyone else not
>>liking the distribution model the
>>state has picked. But
>>I do have a problem
>>when people start exaggerating the
>>effects of it and lying
>>about the realities of said
>>model.
>
>Have you been to the expo?
> The DWR mans all
>the tag booths. $fw
>doesn't do anything other than
>use a number generator to
>come up with numbers.
>For that they get millions.
> The state pays for
>the advertising, the county and
>city pay for a huge
>chunk of the space.
>The Dwr mans the whole
>process. So yes, technically
>your right. THE DON
>doesn't spin the hopper and
>pull out a ping pong
>ball, call out the number
>then hand that guy an
>actual tag. Which proves
>even further just how little
>$fw does for the money
>it sucks in, if they
>did a little bingo style,
>or draw a name out
>of a hat, at least
>there would be drama.
>But like I said, so
>what? I don't want
>to pay RMEF do use
>their random number generator.
>
>Again TRI, and you keep wanting
>to say its just 1%
>of the tags. If
>one of those tags went
>to Zim, he would be
>out of the draw next
>year, and in a draw
>system that was never supposed
>to be a once in
>a lifetime for all species,
>one more tag actually does
>help it out. If
>the orgs want to have
>their parties and banquets and
>expos, great. They can
>go BUY tags from the
>CWMU's on the open market
>and sell them to whoever
>they want for whatever they
>can get. But being
>granted access(since TRI doesn't like
>the idea of saying tags)
>to tags, at ZERO upfront
>cost, which then then can
>sell for $375,000, of which
>the state gets the face
>value of the tag and
>a "promise" of some of
>the rest is a system
>set up soley to benefit
>the few at the expense
>of the state(aka the majority).
> Remember TRI, "its just
>one tag" on AI is
>505 of the tags, half
>of the tags available.
>You want to see real
>money in a real open
>market. Put that AI
>tag up for auction.
>Let $fw, RMEF, MDF, whoever
>bid on it in a
>timed auction, put a rider
>on it that ANY resale
>the state gets 25% of
>the profits for allow the
>sale. Let RMEF pay
>the state $300k for the
>tag, let them sell it
>for whatever they want, then
>send the state 25% of
>that price too. Let
>the orgs play in a
>lottery/auction. Set up the
>system the way it should
>be, in which the state
>wins up front, and on
>the back end. The
>whole point is for the
>state to win, not Denny
>Austad, not DU, etc.
>It is especially not supposed
>to hurt guys in the
>draws by sucking out tags.
> Tri, in construction we
>bid, in your business you
>price?, but either way its
>an open market. Let
>the orgs COMPETE, afterall competition
>is good for the market
>right?
>
>
>"The only thing that stops a
>bad guy with a gun
>is a good guy with
>a gun"

Though I've never attended, I know there is a pseudo biding auction for the Conservation Permits/Vouchers. At least I know there is a meeting with all interested parties that appears to me to be an orchestrated allocation with designated percentages. Maybe one of you who has been to this meeting could give us more details. But however the distribution works, no funds are actually paid up-front. And whether or not the bid is a firm bid or some kind of floating bid with any collected funds over and above the bid going to the DWR or the Conservation Organization is also something to think about. Of course there's the 10% the Conservation Organization gets at the time of auction AND the interest the funds draw prior to turning the 30% directly over to the DWR AND the interest during the two year lapse before the projects mandated by the remaining 60% take place that also goes to the Conservation Organization.

Again Tri quotes his %1 figure which is based on the total NUMBER of permits/vouchers while ignoring the different VALUES of the permits/vouchers. It's like insuring 2 bags on the airlines for $1,000 with one containing normal clothing ($150) while the other contains expensive electronic equipment ($850) and the electronic equipment goes missing. Well, the insurance company will only pay you up to $500, 1/2 of the insurance. (Been there, done that.) As much as he claims that permit prices should be based on their value, he chooses to ignore that when it suits his agenda. His %1 becomes a LOT more in terms of funding and influence when the actual financial value is considered. Even the DWR claims they now couldn't do what they have to do without those funds. That's a sorry state of affairs.
 

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