UT results\OR deadline

Zim

Zim

Very Active Member
Messages
2,316
Anyone know if Utah draw results are ever posted prior to the Oregon deadline? I have never paid much attention due to most prior apps being for points only. However, Now I have points to draw. Thanks.

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Member RMEF, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
bite it Zim!!
OR deadline is before Utah's post!!
can you be in too places at once?
inherant risk! play at your own risk!!
 
"too places"

Yikes!

I know the OR deadline is 5/15. I know what the regs say for UT, but states usually hit cards or post prior to what their regs state. Looks like UT may hit cards just after the 15th?

Yes it's the risk we all take. I have been very lucky so far since 1996. Never had conflicting tags. Can't last forever with 260 points. :)

***********************************
Member RMEF, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
>"too places"
>
>Yikes!
>
>I know the OR deadline is
>5/15. I know what
>the regs say for UT,
>but states usually hit cards
>or post prior to what
>their regs state. Looks
>like UT may hit cards
>just after the 15th?
>
>Yes it's the risk we all
>take. I have been
>very lucky so far since
>1996. Never had conflicting
>tags. Can't last forever
>with 260 points. :)
>
>
>***********************************
>Member RMEF, UBNM, UWC & the
>SFW Hate Club

I heard the SFW used some of their pull & you're gonna Draw!:D



[font color=red size=redsize=18"face"]SHOW THEM TO ME![/font]
If You Love Your Country,SHOW THEM TO ME!




It's been a long hard ride
Got a ways to go
But this is still the place
That we all call home
 
I track when I learn results of various draws. UT results have been available as early as 4/24 and as late as 4/28 the past few years. You should have a couple of weeks to decide on your OR choices unless something changes for this year. I think you have mentioned you are in a good position to draw elk in OR. Be aware OR does not manage for trophy hunts so is common for there to be 100s of spike or cow elk hunters in the woods just before or even during the bull hunt.
 
I also had UT results noted as late April in years past. Maybe this changed the last couple years? I see where it says late May for this year.

I do know about the spike hunters in Emily but I am confident I can get away from them. I typically backpack in deep anyway. Also I have a buddy in OR who wants to come along and spike hunt.

***********************************
Member RMEF, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
The one nice thing is I could turn the UT tag back in without penalty if I drew both.

***********************************
Member RMEF, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
>The one nice thing is I
>could turn the UT tag
>back in without penalty if
>I drew both.
>
>***********************************
>Member RMEF, UBNM, UWC & the
>SFW Hate Club


thats the only "nice "thing you've ever said about utah! well done zim
 
"thats the only "nice "thing you've ever said about utah! well done zim"

The scenery is very nice. The beehives are nice. I just don't care for the bought & paid for game commission nor SFW. Other than that, it's all good.

***********************************
Member RMEF, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-16-12 AT 01:25PM (MST)[p]UT used to post in April. Last year (2011) is when it switched to May.
 
OK, thanks that explains it.

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Member RMEF, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-17-12 AT 09:02AM (MST)[p]Ken

If I understand correctly you have been putting in for the Pausaugunt. Draw results will not be posted until the end of May the Wildlife Board has not met yet to approve permit numbers.

A few years back the application period was kicked back a month and so were the results.

Here are some facts that you might be interested in. I know your hatered for SFW and I am not trying to change your mind but I thought some history might be enlightning to you!

No Conservation group has dumped more money into the Pausaugunt than SFW. This takes into consideration both Conservation Permit Money and Private Money. Here is a list of some of the projects that have been completed or are in the works.

1-Pond Linings on Mustang, Pole Canyon and 2 just over the border in AZ

2-Installed Larger holding tanks and approns at both Buckskin Overlook and Five Mile Guzzlers

3-Guzzler on House Rock Road

4-Reseeding of sage near transmission station at 5 Mile Mt

5-Major Lop & Scatter Project on Buckskin Mtn

6-Guzzler projects on Buckskin, Sink Hole and Five Mile

7-Fixed uzzler at Pink Cove

8-Improved water system at Nephi Pasture, Nef, Clay and Sand Springs

9-Seed for test plots near Seaman Wash

10-Hauled water in brought years to fill ponds to keep deer off of HWY 89

11-Flashing HWY Signs

12-Fenced Hay Fiedls near Alton Utah to take care of depredation problems. (Deer being shot)

13-Controlled Burns near Bryce

14-Reseed Project South of Alton

15-Guzzler on Timber Mtn

17-Major Hwy fencing and under pass project on HWY 89

18-Fought to stop doe hunts

19-Fought to increase average age class of bucks

20-Fought to increase Buck to Doe ratio

21-Pushed for management Buck hunt

22-Helped guide and check in management buck hunters

Ken bottom line is this the pausaugunt is in far better shape now than 5 years ago and it is due in large part to Conservation Permit Money & SFW members in that area that have fought tooth and nail to restore the Pausaugunt back to what it used to be.

Hundreds of thousands of dollars have and will be spent on preserving this Jewel of the West!

If you are lucky enough to draw you ought to swing by and thank alot of those individuals that helped provide you a hunt of a lifetime.

They wont be hard to find they are in about every little town down there. Kanab,Orderville,Glendale,Alton,Mt Carmel,Panguitch,Tropic,Bryce City,Hatch,Escalante,Cedar City and Antimony!

Who know's they might even give you a little help on where you ought to be hunting!


X-treme
Troy Justensen
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-17-12 AT 09:30AM (MST)[p]X-Treme,

Yes, and for whom?

How many NR regular draw deer tags were available in 1996 pre-SFW, and how many this year?........and how many wealth tags? .2 of 1% like Chris Denham claims, or 5% like Don Peay claims?

Where did all the unaccounted for money taken from a public resource go?

Do you respect SFW for their "emergency" tag grab in Arizona?

What are your thoughts on Corey Rossi's political payback tags from Alaska and his too many to count poaching violations?

Our org did amazing things without such gross, gross corruption. Yes we had many boots on the ground projects. Yes we aided wounded vets. I personally even built a hunting blind with handicap ramp on my land for a quadriplegic crippled in a hunting incident. I paid for all the materials and did the carpentry work myself. Didn't strong arm it from public resources. Guess what? All these things can be accomplished without any corruption or disappearing money. Hard to believe, isn't it?

***********************************
Member RMEF, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
>You can change/modify your Oregon ap
>well after the deadline. May
>have to be done in
>person though.

Bingo! Looks like I have an out.

Dug around the OR regs and found this:

"If there is an error on your controlled hunt
application (incorrect party leader?s license
number, hunt choice, etc.), or if you need
to change your application, you must
contact the Controlled Hunt staff by
June 1 to have it corrected. Mail a
photocopy of your application with the
corrections marked to ODFW-Controlled
Hunts, 3406 Cherry Ave. NE, Salem, OR
97303, or fax to 503-947-6113 or 6117."

This should take care of the issue. I'll just apply for everything in Oregon and if I draw UT I can change them all. As long as UT doesn't have any problems with their server or something they should post in time. I'll just have to be prepared to change quickly. Thanks much Extrapale!


***********************************
Member RMEF, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
Ken

I do not know the number of NR tags available in 1996 off the top of my head. This years numbers are currently going through the RAC process and have not been set.

Permits will flucuate from year to year based on the health of the herd! To put the blame soley on the Conservation Permit program is simply unrealistic and not true!

100% of Conservation Permit Money is audited and accounted for! My understanding of the conservation permit rule is up to 5% of the total number of permits on the unit are available for the Conservation Permit Program!

There would be no way possible to accomplish this list of projects with out the aid of the Conservation Permit Program. Like you, hundreds of SFW Chapter members have donated countless time and money to protect the resource.

Volunteer's only have so much time and money that they can donate. Bottom line is these projects dont get completed if that is the only resource available.

Take for example the Fencing & Under Passes I mentioned, care to guess how many hundreds of thousands of dollars this project is going to cost?

It is not possible to raise that money through private donations. It is going to take a concerted effort from Conservation Permit Money, State and Federal.

How important is the Project. If you are at all familiar with the Pausaugunt you know and understand that this is a migrating herd.
Hundreds of deer are slaughtered yearly during this migration when they cross HWY 89. They consentrate in a 10 mile strip. If we can cut down on the # of those animals being killed, it will be a huge shot in the arm to this herd.

The Alaska tags you are refering to are open for any Conservation Group to apply for. SFW is not the only group that was awarded some of those tags.
Ken you are buying into a conspiracy theory!

I personally choose to think a guy is innocent until proven guilty.I will what and base my judgement on what come out through our Justice System.

If he is found guilty he needs to be punished according to the law. No different than anyone else!

Out of curiosity does anyone know what the actual charges are? Out right poaching? Paper work error? Fruad?

I have known Chris,Floyd,Pete and others for several years. I consider many of them good friends and some of the best people I know!

Like I stated before I think and error was made on how the tags were sought. (My Opinion)

I pointed out in another thread that it was much different than the process that is and was used here in Utah.

Every thing was presented through the RAC's and the door was open to all groups that wanted to participate. Bottom line in Utah there was a public process and it was voted on in favor of.

A few of you continue to try and link SFW Utah to AZ. It is simply not the case. We have not hired Pete. We did not pay Pete $150K. We have not paid or hired Susan.

Even if AZ was a affilate each state acts on it own!

SFW has several Chapter Affilates ie NM,WY,ID,MT,AK. Arizonia is not one of them. Several years ago Don did make a trip down there to talk with a group of Sportsmen about organizing a chapter.
For what ever reason it did not come to fruition.

Ken if you are lucky enough to draw the tag it will be worth the waite and you will owe the thanks to a group of concerned sportsman who cared enough to get involved and had a program in place that allowed them to make a difference for all to enjoy! Including you!



X-treme
Troy Justensen
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-17-12 AT 03:40PM (MST)[p]X-treme,

"Every thing was presented through the RAC's and the door was open to all groups that wanted to participate. Bottom line in Utah there was a public process and it was voted on in favor of."

C'mon man.

You know how that game is played. The cookie cutter formula is going strong in AZ, just the way it did in Utah. With Don weaseling in his cronies on the wildlife board. The first thing they did was set up their org to be the only qualifying org to steal the 350 auction tags.......same as UT! Then they hire Gilstrap for lobbyist, and guess who's husband is on the AZ game commissioner approval board! They just got their 2nd plant approved for that board!

Please don't patronize us that the RAC's "open to all groups to participate"! Ya you can participate, but it's going to go in one SFW plant ear and out the other.

You can hide your head in the sand to these crooked politics.

There needs to be complete transparency before any group can even BEGIN to call itself reputable. You cannot say that about SFW and the 200 convention tags.

Period.

That is shameful.

On top of all this is the quantity of the "conservation" tags. 500+??? When other states have 10 or 15 or maybe Wyoming with 120. Utah is totally out of hand, 500! WTF??? Even for those who believe sacrificing the North American Model for Wildlife Conservation is justifiable.

I've watched what's happened in Utah since 1996 and it's a disgusting privatization of a public resource.

Just shameful.

***********************************
Member RMEF, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
"My understanding of the conservation permit rule is up to 5% of the total number of permits on the unit are available for the Conservation Permit Program!"

5% huh?

Do you know how many NR preference archery Pauns tags there are this year?

1.............Ya, and in "one".

Do you know how many tags are available to auction bidders elligible for that hunt? I know of at least 8.......as in "eight". Plus another two thrown in the expo drawing, one of which was taken from the NR pool. Thus at least 50% of the tags were taken from NR's just due to that one. How many of the eight auction tags were? I don't need to calculate it to know that it's already more than 5%!

If I feel motivated I'll go out to my garage and see what the figure was in 1996 or 1997. I know I kept the regs. I'm going to wager it is more than 1.




***********************************
Member RMEF, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
Troy,
Thanks for the post. Those that actually spend time on the Pauns have seen the improvement. Last year was one of the best weeks of hunting I have ever experienced on the Pauns. Many times during the week the discussion was the improvements and obvious dollars put on the ground in this unit. The Pauns is my favorite place in the whole world to be the last week of Oct. I can not thank the locals and SFW enough for being involved in helping the Pauns.

Zim,
Its a shame that a tag on my favorite place in the entire world will possibly be going to a person so bitter. That being said I hope you draw and can then move on. I'll be around loving the red rock, sand and hopefully giant mulies for years to come! Good luck I hope you have the hunt of a lifetime.
.
 
>Zim,
>Its a shame that a tag
>on my favorite place in
>the entire world will possibly
>be going to a person
>so bitter. That being
>said I hope you draw
>and can then move on.
> I'll be around loving
>the red rock, sand and
>hopefully giant mulies for years
>to come! Good luck
>I hope you have the
>hunt of a lifetime.
>.

Yes and it's a shame nobody has made a concerted effort to get media involved in exposing the gross financial abuse to the public. But I aim to change that very soon, like I did in Arizona. The day after we got the KTVK interview expose the AZ scandal, Gilstrap packed her bags and left the statehouse.

Sorry but we'll just have to agree to disagree on putting a public resource for sale to the highest bidder, and no accountability for the funds raised.

SFW should be truly ashamed.

**********************************
Member RMEF, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
>>Zim,
>>Its a shame that a tag
>>on my favorite place in
>>the entire world will possibly
>>be going to a person
>>so bitter. That being
>>said I hope you draw
>>and can then move on.
>> I'll be around loving
>>the red rock, sand and
>>hopefully giant mulies for years
>>to come! Good luck
>>I hope you have the
>>hunt of a lifetime.
>>.
>
>Yes and it's a shame nobody
>has made a concerted effort
>to get media involved in
>exposing the gross financial abuse
>to the public. But
>I aim to change that
>very soon, like I did
>in Arizona. The day
>after we got the KTVK
>interview expose the AZ scandal,
>Gilstrap packed her bags and
>left the statehouse.
>
>Sorry but we'll just have to
>agree to disagree on putting
>a public resource for sale
>to the highest bidder, and
>no accountability for the funds
>raised.
>
>SFW should be truly ashamed.
>
>**********************************
>Member RMEF, UBNM, UWC & the
>SFW Hate Club

SFW Hate Club President and Founder Zim, another community organizer from Illinois just what this world needs.
 
>SFW Hate Club President and Founder
>Zim, another community organizer from
>Illinois just what this world
>needs.

Hate much and get personal often? Seriously have to go into personal attack rather than debate the merit of the issues? Usually the SFW plants on MM wait until they get a few dozen quotes under the belt until they get personal. Oh well, sling the mud.

As for the slur, if there is a socialist in the woodpile then that is SFW. SFW gets welfare hand outs from the public to pay their own internal bills (see minimalistic financial disclosure by SFW where a few pennies hits the ground). ACORN has nothing on SFW.

As for the distrust of SFW that now spans coast to coast as well as powerful organization like the NRA, here is why: SFW tries to stink up our states with a playbook driven by welfare handouts and political wildlife management that targets providing 100s of primo tags to the highest bidder for those rare tags others wait decades to draw if they ever draw one of the tags.

The stink in AZ quacks like SFW duck, waddles like one, etc, when SFW tried to get a multi-year handout of primo tags with minimal oversight with a backroom middle of the night "emergency" deal. Quack quack.

I distrust SFW in all states and all morphed versions whether they are on the webpage list or not. SFW leadership earned my distrust.

But, I don't hate you as a supporter and probably as a leader of SFW. I won't attack your dedication or residence or dozens of other aspects of your life that are noble and worthy of respect. Many shades of gray. If you only see black and white then so be it.
 
>>>Zim,
>>>Its a shame that a tag
>>>on my favorite place in
>>>the entire world will possibly
>>>be going to a person
>>>so bitter. That being
>>>said I hope you draw
>>>and can then move on.
>>> I'll be around loving
>>>the red rock, sand and
>>>hopefully giant mulies for years
>>>to come! Good luck
>>>I hope you have the
>>>hunt of a lifetime.
>>>.
>>
>>Yes and it's a shame nobody
>>has made a concerted effort
>>to get media involved in
>>exposing the gross financial abuse
>>to the public. But
>>I aim to change that
>>very soon, like I did
>>in Arizona. The day
>>after we got the KTVK
>>interview expose the AZ scandal,
>>Gilstrap packed her bags and
>>left the statehouse.
>>
>>Sorry but we'll just have to
>>agree to disagree on putting
>>a public resource for sale
>>to the highest bidder, and
>>no accountability for the funds
>>raised.
>>
>>SFW should be truly ashamed.
>>
>>**********************************
>>Member RMEF, UBNM, UWC & the
>>SFW Hate Club
>
>SFW Hate Club President and Founder
>Zim, another community organizer from
>Illinois just what this world
>needs.

+1
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-18-12 AT 09:17AM (MST)[p]>SFW Hate Club President and Founder
>Zim, another community organizer from
>Illinois just what this world
>needs

Hard to believe one person like myself can make a difference from so far away, but that is the beauty of modern technology. Haha. I hope at minimum I cost AZSFW several thousand dollars extra in wasted lobbyist fees. They deserve it.

I must admit, SFW makes it so easy due to the long list of scandals and corruption articles they leave in their wake. There is just no shortage of them. And it's beginning to get the attention of the TV media.

If you don't like folks from across the country defending their public lands, perhaps you should clean up some of these messes your SFW boys have created?

http://www.hcn.org/blogs/range/alaska-wildlife-woes-raise-red-flags-outside

http://nccsdataweb.urban.org/orgs/profile/200867381?popup=1#forms

http://nccsdataweb.urban.org/orgs/profile/200867309?popup=1#forms

http://www.adn.com/2012/01/12/2260922/wildlife-chief-charged-with-hunt.html

http://www.themudflats.net/2011/11/16/a-disaster-for-alaskas-department-of-fish-and-game/

http://www.alaskadispatch.com/article/new-details-emerge-alaska-wildlife-chiefs-resignation

http://www.azfamily.com/video/?id=145022235&sec=998613

http://www.azgfc.org/readme.htm

http://www.hcn.org/blogs/range/sportsmen-stab-theodore-roosevelt-in-the-back

http://missoulian.com/news/opinion/...cle_dfb5fe10-8570-11e1-99d1-0019bb2963f4.html


Just scratched the surface. I was only responsible for one of these. You folks seriously think the SFW shenanigans can go on forever???

It's only a matter of time, my friends. :) Only a matter of time.


***********************************
Member RMEF, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-18-12 AT 07:26AM (MST)[p]>>
>>SFW Hate Club President and Founder
>>Zim, another community organizer from
>>Illinois just what this world
>>needs.
>

March 28, 2012
To all Arizona RMEF Members
The Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation (RMEF) became aware of House Bill 2072, an act related to Big Game Tags and Permits introduced to the Arizona Legislature, earlier this month. The RMEF, representing over 5,500 members in Arizona and over 185,000 in the US, went on record opposing the bill in a letter to Arizona Governor Janice K. Brewer.
RMEF is now appealing to you, our members in Arizona, to make your voice heard on this poorly crafted legislation. HB 2072 would allocate a significant number of Arizona?s most prestigious and already limited permits to a ?conservation? organization, most likely, Arizona Sportsmen for Wildlife, the primary advocates of this legislation. This action would undermine one of the most basic tenants of the North American Wildlife Conservation Model?that hunting is an opportunity for all. The allocation of 330 special permits for auction and raffle in a state with already limited public opportunity would be nothing short of a travesty and it will take away tags from those who participate in the public draw system.
The absurdity of HB 2072 does not stop there. This bill allows the ?conservation? group selling these permits to exclusively retain an unreasonable percentage of the gross proceeds from the sale of these permits to cover administrative and operating expenses. The RMEF is proud to report that an average of only 8% of all Governor?s and Commissioner?s permits RMEF offers nationwide is retained for administrative purposes. 92% of the gross proceeds have been returned to the states and conservation projects to be invested only in benefiting wildlife and their habitat.
In Arizona specifically, RMEF currently returns 100% of the sale proceeds from the one special elk permit we sell. RMEF actually loses approximately $3,500 annually through direct expenses associated with handling the AZ elk permit. While RMEF believes it is appropriate for organizations to recover direct expenses associated with selling special permits, we firmly believe that private, non-profit entities should not take public assets to support their operational expenses. We operate RMEF the old fashion way, we work for what we get. We are not guaranteed any tags or licenses to create operational revenue.
As a member of RMEF and resident of Arizona it is time to contact your legislator and make your position known on HB 2072, or any similar legislative attempts to take public wildlife from the public. Please act today as this legislation would significantly impact your opportunity to hunt your prized big game species in your home state.
Sincerely,
M. David Allen President and CEO Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation



Oops, it seems I have a few supporters more significant than "billythekid" or "corndog". Go figure!

***********************************
Member RMEF, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
Ken

Have you ever attended a RAC meeting here in Utah? Are you familiar with the process. Do you know how many people sit on each Rac and who they represent?

Or are you basing you comments on what you have read on the internet!

Here is some info that might be helpful to you.There are 5 RAC's through out the state. Each committee is made up of 11 to 14 individuals plus a Chairman. These individuals represent different interests: Sportsman, At Large, Agriculture, Non Consumptive, Forest Service & BLM.

The names address and emails of these individuals are listed on the DWR website. I would encourage you to look at these names and who they represent may be even call them before you make the assumption that they are SFW plants & and a rubber stamp for SFW.

Fact of the matter is you are wrong in your assumption!

Conservation Permits

The rule reads that a maximum of 5% of the permits or 8 permits which ever is less.

In the case of the Paunsaugunt there is a total of 8 (The MAX) permits that can be auctioned off through the Conservation Permit program
2- Archery
2- Season Choice
2- Any Weapon
2- Muzzlelaoder

Other Paunsaugunt Permits (Draw & Landowner)2011 Numbers

25- Archery Permits
25- Muzzleloader Permits
77- Any Weapon Permits
75- Management Buck Permits
22- Land Owner Permits

Total of 224 Permits

"I don't need to calculate it to know that it's already more than 5%"

Ken you might want to calculate It!

SFW does not hide behind the fact that we have supported tag reductions on the Paunsaugunt. It is managed as a Premium Limited Entry Unit. If you dont like the waite apply somewhere else! Diamond Mountain, Vernon, Book Cliff's.

You state "Sorry but we'll have to agree to disagree on putting a public resource for sale to the highest bidder, and no accountability for the funds raised."

Once again 100% of all Conservation Permit Money is audited and accounted for! It has been audited by the Utah State Legislature and on a regular basis by the DWR
If you are not willing to take my word for it fell free to visit the DWR website or call Allan Clark personally!

"On Top of all this the quanity of the"conservation" tags. 500+??? When other states have 10 or 15 or maybe Wyoming with 120. Utah is totally out of hand,500!

Ken there is not 500 + Conservation tags allocted in Utah. The numbers are more in the range of 350. Once agin feel free to check the DWR Website!

But for the sake of argument lets look at other states compared to Utah. Though they are called by different names there are programs that sell a substancial number of permits. One of which is Nevada.

In 2010 Nevada Allocated the following permits

353 Land Owner Tags (Land Owners can sell or give these permits away)

330 Guide Draw Tags (You can only apply if you are booked with a guide or Outfitter)

13 Conservation Permits

Total Permits 696

Revenue generated for Wildlife Roughly $461,000 (Does not include State License Fee's)

Utah

341 Conservation Permits (This includes 73 total permits that were not big game ie Lion's, Bear's, Turkey's)

200 Land Owner Permits (Land Owners can sell or give them away)

194 Expo Tags

Total Permits 735

Revenue generated for Wildlife Roughly $2,863.240 dollars!

Basicly the same number of permits. Utah does not issue guide tags. This number also does not reflect the amount of money the DWR makes on the cost of the Licenses!

You tell me what program puts back more money on the ground for Wildlife!

Nevada is not the only state that allocates these type of permits. To my knowledge they exist in NM,OR as well. This is not a slam on those state.

Just the fact of what this program produces for wildlife!In my opinion it is the best system out there!

The Utah DWR has this posted on thier website "The revenue is used to fund projects which could not otherwise be funded under the DWR's normal operating budget!"

I find the letter you posted by David Allen interesting.

In his letter he states "The RMEF is proud to report that an avergae of only 8% of all Governor's and Commissioner's permits RMEF offers nationwide is retained for administartive purposes. 92% of the gross proceeds have been returned to the states and conservation projects to be invested only in benefiting wildlife and their habitat."

From 2001-2011 RMEF has sold $2,479,910.00 worth of Conservation Permits. According to my knowledge and what I have been able to dig up they have kept the full 10% the state of Utah allows.

Another intersting thing is that RMEF states they have returned the other proceeds back to the states. In most cases this is required in order to participate in the program!

Utah is a 60-30-10 split with 90% manditory going back on the ground!

It would be interesting to see what each group has put into the state of Utah excluding Conservation Permit Money!

SFW has put back $1,082,876 dollars back into Utah between 2008-2011. This money comes from the Expo,Banquets and Private Donations.

A list of where this money has been spent is passed out at our local banquets. It was posted on MM sometime ago and since been removed.

In addition to the $1,082,876 SFW has committed to fund a Deer transplant study on the Parowon Front. This project will cost nearly $200,000 dollars over a 3 year period.SFW will use money generated from the Expo and Banquets.

SFW has also committed 35K to do a study in Seveir and Millard county on releaseing pen raised pheasants to augment wild populations.

3000 birds will be released in the fall of 2012 and the spring of 2013. The majority of these birds will be hens with the hopes of rebuilding our Pheasant population where there is suitable habitat.

Ken despite your self proclaimed hatered for SFW I will offer to asist you on your hunt if you are lucky enough to draw.

I have guided on the Paunsaugunt for over 15 years and would be willing to take you around and show you what I know. Along the ride we can continue to debate what ever topic you would like!

You would have to agree to ride in a well used 2003 Dodge that has seen better days. Well over 350,000 miles with a majority of them on dirt.


X-treme

Troy Justensen
 
Troy,

Do you believe the number of auction and raffle tags in Utah has gotten out of hand?

Do you believe ALL funds generated from these sales of public resource should be and have been accounted for by SFW?

Do you believe in the North American Model for Wildlife Conservation?

Do you believe the recent "emergency" HB2072 in Arizona was a good thing for sportsmen of the United States, and a model all states should use?


***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
Morning Ken!


No I dont believe the tags have gotten out of control in Utah. There is a system in place that controls that number. I recently spoke with one of the DWR Biologist.

I will not use his name because I have not ask him if I could but his statement speaks volumes.

"With out the Conservation Permit Program these projects dont get done and bottom line I do not have a job"

This program has funded over 800,000 acres of habitat restoration! Ken that is why I support it the money is going back on the ground.
I am lucky enough that I get to be involved in some of those projects. I get to see the result.

Is it perfect? NO Is it making a difference? I think so!

100% of the Conservation Permit Money is audited and accounted for. If a group cannot account for the funds generated they are no longer allowed to participate. There is a rule in place and the groups have to adhear to it.
I know of no group that has failed to provide an accounting!

The Convention Permits are different and I fully understand the heart burn on this issue.

We are not selling these permits it is a drawing and to participate you are required to pay an application fee! No different than what is required to put in for the General Draw.

The $5 application fee is allowed to be kept by the groups involved who conduct the draw.

In SFW's case those funds generated by the application fee are used to accomplish our mission.SFW could argu that 100% of those funds are spent on preserving and enhancing Utahs Wildlife. I have stated sevral projects where these funds and banquet revenue have been spent.

Because it is an application fee and the actual permit is not being sold by the groups the DWR does not require the type of audit that exsist with the conservation tags!

HB2072 the first time I ever heard about this bill was here on MM! For me to say I agree or disagree with the bill would be wrong because I have honestly not read it. I dont know.

Having said that SFW's offical position is they are not in favor of the Bill.

I will say this based on what I have heard and my limited knowledge on the issue I believe the bill was handled poorly. Things of this nature have to be open for all public to comment on and be given the opportunity to support or reject!

I am a simple uneducated Man Ken and I would be lieing if I told you that I fully understood the North American Modle. I have never read it and quit frankly dont know much about it!

I was tought at an early age to love the outdoors and the hunting heritage.

Since Jr High I have been involved in some sort of Conservation Group.

I have always had a desire to be involved and give something back.

I believe the wildlife we enjoy belongs to all of us and as hunters we have an obligation and responsibilty to ensure that it is there for our children and future generations to enjoy!

Liked I stated before I have been involved with Conservation Groups from and early age and it is my opinion that the one I belong to now gives me the best opportunity to serve and protect
the Heritage I cherish the most.

So I guess if that is within the frame work of the North American Hunting Model I believe in it!

X-treme
Troy Justensen
 
Troy it's hard for us to hear that you just had a desire to give back when your on the PAYROLL. Thats the comments I'd prefer to hear the volunteers of sfw say. Just sayin
 
Good point Russ!

But you need to take into consideration the fact that I have not always been on the payroll! Spent sevral years as a volunteer. Did not get involved with the idea that some day it would be the way I support my family.

And you are not aware of what I give beyond what I get paid for! Nor will you because I choose to keep it that way.

I have never hidden the fact that I get paid for what I do. I have posted here on MM what I make for everyone to see.

And if I were King for a day and finances were not an issue I would not take a check.


X-treme
Troy Justensen
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-19-12 AT 01:49PM (MST)[p]Troy,

"With out the Conservation Permit Program these projects don't get done and bottom line I do not have a job"

Oh, so this guy's top priorety is making sure his own personal job is funded? And all Don Peay does is claim how horrible the UTDOW is at doing their jobs? OK. Nice. Where does this end? How many people will subscribe to this reasoning and want jobs? How many more wealth tags will it take to satisfy these employee's payroll needs?

Troy, You do realize no other state in the country has anywhere near the number of wealth tags tahs Utah has, right. And yes I consider the raffle tags wealth tags which puts the number over 500. They were stolen from regular Joes who had already waited and paid for their turn.

You seem like you personally put as much work as I have in conservation organizations. I would recommend you look into contributing your time to an honest conservation group in Utah, such as UWC. I can't believe you have not read the North American Model for Wildlife Conservation. It was part of the study materials for the Arizona, Illinois & Indiana hunter's ed courses I completed. Perhaps Don Peay had it removed from the Utah course requirements? Please read at the following link. It is very brief:

http://www.montanasportsmenalliance.com/resources/the-north-american-model-of-wildlife-conservation/

Also, here is a link to a MM thread that posts the complete HB2072, along with an interview of the legislator that AZSFW paid off to introduce the bill as an "emergency" measure. In case you are not aware, I was the one who arranged for KTVK to run this story:

http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/DCForumID33/1783.html

http://www.azfamily.com/video/?id=145022235&sec=998613


***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-19-12 AT 01:25PM (MST)[p]>Troy it's hard for us to
>hear that you just had
>a desire to give back
>when your on the PAYROLL.
> Thats the comments I'd
>prefer to hear the volunteers
>of sfw say. Just sayin
>

OMG, You're crappin me?! On the SFW payroll? Supporting the family? On wealth tags?

And you've never even read the North American Model for Wildlife Conservation?!?

OMG, this is a freakin nightmare! Lord help us.

Excuse me while I go bang my head against a wall.

***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
>Boy, I'd like to be there
>to see that. Please
>don't hurt the wall.

Ottercreekboy,

Please tell us you have read the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation, and that you are not on the SFW payroll?

Please!


***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
Not on the payroll, sorry. Why in he?? would I need to read that? I do have a little common sense, I don't need to read some "Model" that someone else wrote. I can think for for myself. I don't need to be told what and where to do something.
 
zim


When you get out to your garage be sure and check how many resident tags there were also . After you do please be so kind as to post them on here.

outdoors

zim the one who likes to get personal so don't cry for him!
 
>Not on the payroll, sorry.
>Why in he?? would I
>need to read that?
>I do have a little
>common sense, I don't need
>to read some "Model" that
>someone else wrote. I
>can think for for myself.
> I don't need to
>be told what and where
>to do something.


OMG this is unbelievable. Did they transplant everyone from Kintuky out there of something?


***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
Geeze zimmy I'm might not speak so good, but I sure can find a buck on the pauns without any help.
 
>>Not on the payroll, sorry.
>>Why in he?? would I
>>need to read that?
>>I do have a little
>>common sense, I don't need
>>to read some "Model" that
>>someone else wrote. I
>>can think for for myself.
>> I don't need to
>>be told what and where
>>to do something.
>
>
>OMG this is unbelievable. Did
>they transplant everyone from Kintuky
>out there of something?
>
>
>***********************************
>Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club,
>UBNM, UWC & the SFW
>Hate Club

zim

now everybody in kintuky gonna think your a P.O.S too!!

you big city boys sure know how to win friends and influence people . if you get your pauns tag maybe me and otter can come down and get some lessons on how to talk proper and will show you how to kill a big buck. did you mean OR something? if your gonna make fun of how someone writes try not too f-up yourself.dumb-azz
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-19-12 AT 11:01PM (MST)[p]Zim:

I know about the North American Model of Wildlife Management. Care to explain where you think SFW is violating this model?

For those that don't want to go to another link here it is:

SEVEN PRINCIPLES OF THE NORTH AMERICAN CONSERVATION MODEL

1? Wildlife as Public Trust Resources
The people own the wildlife and assign direct management to government
2? Elimination of Markets for Wildlife
Illegal to sell and buy live animals and parts of dead animals.
3? Allocation of Wildlife by Law
Public law identifies who can hunt, and sets seasons, bag limits, number of permits, etc to regulate the hunt.
4? Wildlife Can Only be Killed for a Legitimate Purpose
Non-Hunters and Hunters share a cultural value that abhors waste of public property & wanton destruction.
5? Wildlife are Considered an International Resource
Migratory species cross national boundaries. Oceans, rivers and lakes, etc.
6? Science is the Proper Tool for Discharge of Wildlife Policy
The law and regulation of people and wildlife derives from valid scientific research
We had to invent the science of wildlife biology to fulfill this need.
7? Democracy of Hunting
Every citizen qualified to hunt under law has equal standing to obtain the privilege and opportunity to hunt or otherwise benefit from use of the public property. Access to the wildlife and public lands and waters is controlled and regulated by the public trustee according to laws made by representatives of the people.

Just as a disclaimer (and to save TOPGUN the time), I also work for SFW; however, I am in Wyoming. I am the executive director for WY SFW. I am accountable to the WY SFW Board of Directors and our Wyoming members.
 
Smokestack, Please tell me you're joking.

**********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
Zim,

I don't know you but I am far from joking. Where are the conflicts you see between SFW & the North American Model of Wildlife Management? I even posted the 7 principles to help you point out where you see the model being violated.

I will be leaving for Jackson today as I have a meeting there. I will not be able to visit the site until later tonight or tomorrow. That should give you enough time to identify the conflicts or perhaps have someone can help you out.

I take what I do very seriously and I do not appreciate someone running down an organization that I have spent a decade building (in Wyoming). Troy has done his best to help you understand SFW's position, I want to understand yours. So I will ask once more, please state where you see what SFW is doing in Utah or any where else that is violating the NAM.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-20-12 AT 03:07PM (MST)[p]You and every other employee of SFW are in about as serious a denial as one could possibly imagine if you can't see how the SFW model violates the NAMWC.

There are only about 10,000 web articles alone (some in the links above) describing the looting going on, most designed to educate the newbies because any true honest sportsman worth his salt would have learned those basics in his first hunter's education class or before!

It's a sad state of affairs when even the hard working, passioanate ones are willing to sell their souls and compromise those tenets, turning their backs on Teddy Roosevelt like nothing happened. You should truly be ashamed of yourself.

Tell me, how many auctions tags is too many? Where is the dividing line??? 500?.....2,000?.....10,000?.....Or does SFW even have one??? Where will it end? Europe?


***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
Zim:
Is that really the best you can do?

Level with me and tell me exactly where Utah has violated the NAM. You posted the 7 Principles but you cannot identify which one, two, three, etc. is causing you so much grief and strife.

Don't rely on someones article, tell me where YOU see the model has been violated.

The truth is that the Utah Division of Wildlife Resources has not violated the model and your silence confirms that.

All of the other conservation groups which participate equally in Utah's conservation permitting program are not mentioned only SFW. The same thing is occurring with regards to the Expo/Convention permits. MDF is an equal player; why are they never mentioned? I have a problem with your hypocrisy and selective investigation of the facts.

So I will ask once more; where has Utah violated the NAM? Pick a number between 1 & 7, then provide an explanation or your interpretation of how that pillar has been violated.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-20-12 AT 11:29PM (MST)[p]You know EXACTLY which one it is. Quit playing stupid.

SFW is by far and away the worst, and as I've stated often above it is their model that is ruining hunting. I am certainly no fan of BGF nor MDF either. Never said I was.

The BS DP's model tried to do in Arizona was truly putrid. The worst assault on the NAMWC I've ever seen attempted. I was proud to run Gilstrap out of Phoenix on a rail. I hope I cost them thousands in lobbyist fees!

***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
Califelkslayer:
Is that an attempt to help Zim come up with an answer?

If that is in fact the case, please tell me which one of the 7 principles of the North American Model of Wildlife Management are being violated. I listed them above for all to see them.

I understand that many on this site are not happy with the Utah process of allocating licenses for conservation purposes. Some just don't like, while others believe that too many licenses are issued. I am trying to understand where they are seeing this as a violation of the NAM, when in fact, I do not see that happening. No state agency is going to undermine that model. Not even Utah.

My point is that Utah has a very clear process in place. Troy has articulated it well. That process involves the public as well as the government. Rather than having a very public and nasty rant that attempts to disparage 1 single group when many have participated is beyond hypocritical.

For all of the battering and complaining, I believe the NAM is well protected. Several have claimed that SFW as a whole has attempted to steal tags away from the public in AZ, ID, etc. The truth is the process worked. Sportsmen in their respective states engaged in the process and stopped something form happening that the majority didn't want to happen. The Utah program has been around a long time. It was not created over night nor in the cover of darkness. It was not created by SFW nor has SFW been the only recipient of conservation permits and convention permits; yet, I only see SFW being attacked & vilified. The only conclusion that I can see is that someone is seeking to divide sportsmen. Who benefits from sportsmen being divided? I would hazard a guess that someone has orchestrated this issue in an attempt to see us divided. I have said it before, we can disagree without being disagreeable. We do not need to disparage one sportsmen's group to make another one better.

I hope that all of this SFW bashing will only make the independent SFW States better & stronger because I have seen first hand what happens when sportsmen are not engaged in the political process. In today's climate, I believe sportsmen can no longer leave a void or empty seat at the table when decisions are being made which can have long lasting impacts and undesirable consequences.
 
>Simple math, tags taken away from
>the regular guy so some
>RICH GUY CAN GO HUNTINg.
>
>
>Zim, hope you draw that tag
>and kill a big-un.


zim still has the same chance to draw a tag!!

i hope he kills a big-un to cause if he dosen't it will be dons or sfw fault and then he'll whine about his lack of hunting skills.hey zim you made it out to your garage yet? still waiting to see how many resident verses non-resident tags their was in 1996?i think your whole argument against sfw hinges on those numbers !! your garage must be bigger than Dennys if you still haven't found those numbers yet! come on BIG DEAL!
 
Definition of AUCTION; to offer for SALE to the highest bidder.

I believe the 2nd guideline to the model is appropriately violated by auction tags?!? NO?

I'm sure some dickweeds will point out its the tag that is auctioned not the animal or it's parts, but I would point out that they should then auction last years tag at this years auction and see how much money they make!


Bill

Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of
ignorance, and the gospel of envy.

You have enemies? Good. That means you've
stood up for something, sometime in your life.

- Winston Churchill
 
huntindad4:

No, you need to read the clarification provided below each principle as it clarifies specifically what the intent of the mentioned principle.

Below Number 2 it states: "Illegal to sell and buy live animals and parts of dead animals."

Auctioning the tag does not sell a live animal nor any parts of a dead animal.

In addition, some people may not know it but Utah also offers a resident drawing for statewide permits (or tags) that are identical and equal to those offered for auction. Do you think a tag from one of those drawings is worth any more or any less than the ones purchased in an auction but sold the following year? I doubt it, they are both of no value as the opportunity they afford has expired.
 
How does requiring a person to travel to Utah to apply for 300 primo tags align with principle 7? How does auctioning dozens of primo tags in Utah to the wealthiest bidders align with principle 7? How does placing a cronie with zero scientific training onto the Wildlife Board in Alaska fit with principle 6?
 
Like I said in response to huntindad4, you need to also read the comments below the identified 7 principles.

#7 is entitled: "Democracy of Hunting"

There are two points of clarifications below Principle #7.
1- Every citizen qualified to hunt under law has equal standing to obtain the privilege and opportunity to hunt or otherwise benefit from use of the public property.
2- Access to the wildlife and public lands and waters is controlled and regulated by the public trustee according to laws made by representatives of the people.

Lets deal with the 2nd point first as it is the easiest to explain. Does anyone not understand that the public trustee is the Utah Division of Wildlife Resources (UDWR)? The use rules & regulations to define how wildlife resources will be managed in Utah and must do so according to the laws made by the State government. Both the setting of state laws and the establishment of rules & regulations by the UDWR involve the public or the people.

Earlier in post #31 & #33, X-treme (Troy) explained the process for conservation permits and the convention permits. Under state law, everyone has equal standing to obtain the privilege & opportunity to hunt. Anyone & everyone is allowed to apply for the convention permits and anyone can bid on those licenses being offered for auction.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-22-12 AT 08:13PM (MST)[p]That is about the biggest bunch of bullchit I've heard in trying to say that everyone is on an equal basis for any of those tags in question. Yea, I'm going to go all the way out from MI to Utah to validate a $5 ticket and that makes me the same as the guy that lives right down the street from the Expo center that can walk there. Then you also post here and say everyone is an equal in regards to the auction tags when many times we all know they sometimes go for six figures. What percentage of the hunting population can afford that because it sure isn't 100%, which it should be to not violate the NAM! I can't remember where it was, but I remember you even saying that you couldn't afford to bid on them because you're an "average Joe". You are a lobbyist and have stated on more than one Forum and website that a lack of integrity and lying would ruin your career as a lobbyist. As far as I and many others are concerned, your posts on this thread trying to say the SFW is not violating one or more of the NAM principles by taking hundreds of tags and doing with them what is done have just ruined that career with the biggest share of us. Anyway, it's ironic that you're on here defending another state SFW when you keep saying they are all independent and don't answer to the others, especially the UtahSFW. It looks like just maybe you are starting to be aware that these tag situations are now being brought into the spotlight from coast to coast and are getting a little worried as you seem to be on a number of websites trying to put out the fires Mr. WYOBOB, LOL!!!
 
"There are two points of clarifications below Principle #7.
1- Every citizen qualified to hunt under law has equal standing to obtain the privilege and opportunity to hunt or otherwise benefit from use of the public property."


As far as the auction part. How does every citzen have an equal standing. As was stated above there are very few that have the means to shell out six figures to buy a tag. To me that is not an equal chance, I am not against auction tags when they are done the right way as they are in Arizona where a 100% of the proceeds go directly to wildlife. For you to say that SFW meets Principle #7 is crazy.
 
TOPGUN or should I say TOPGUN 30-06? (Oh, you are so clever),

You cannot refute it so you attack me. You are brilliant. What I said is factual. Your opinion is just that, your opinion.

Utah law and the UDWR administer the program. Are there people from Michigan which participate in the convention? I don't know, but that is how the law is written; you must attend to validate. I would venture a guess that if you wanted to apply for the convention permits you could do it just like anyone else can.

Where does the NAM model specify what percentage can afford it? I don't see it any where. Please point out where the NAN specifies and supports your claims. I am an average guy and if I wanted to bid on any of the auction permits I can. The state law & the UDWR explains what the purposes are for their conservation and convention permits just as the NAM directs it to.

You continue to read only the posts which support your opinion that doesn't make you right, it only shows you for what you are.

I am not defending SFW, I am pointing out that the UDWR does not operate outside of the NAM. They are the entity entrusted by the people to manage the resources in Utah.

What is ironic is that you switch the debate rather than admit you are wrong. People come from all over the world to attend the Western Hunting & Conservation Expo. The state wants to draw people here for that event as (I believe) that is one of the main reasons for the event is to generate tourism and money for the state.
 
azhuntin:

Is there only one person bidding on those auction permits? I don't think so.

My whole point is UT DWR runs all of the programs not SFW. You need to look at the purpose of the convention permits. It is spelled out by the UDWR and from what I understand was recently renewed. That means that it went thru a public review process and was approved.

Tell me how Arizona handles their process of allowing non-residents to take the AZ hunter safety course and what they get in return for it. Do non-residents also need to travel to AZ to take the course or is it available on line? What benefits are derived by a non-resident taking AZ's hunter safety course?
 
>How does requiring a person to
>travel to Utah to apply
>for 300 primo tags align
>with principle 7? How does
>auctioning dozens of primo tags
>in Utah to the wealthiest
>bidders align with principle 7?
>How does placing a cronie
>with zero scientific training onto
>the Wildlife Board in Alaska
>fit with principle 6?


its only 200 and alot of them are not primo. if you don't like it work to change it but don't be like zim and make stuff up!
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-22-12 AT 10:39PM (MST)[p]Come on Bob...

Where does the NAM model specify what percentage can afford it? I don't see it any where. Please point out where the NAN specifies and supports your claims. I am an average guy and if I wanted to bid on any of the auction permits I can.

I'm sure a 12 year old kid delivering papers is going to be able to out-bid Hamberlin for a strip deer tag.

The NAM model is not about who can afford to hunt, the model was specifically set up for all citizens to have equal access to all wildlife resources. The intent wasnt there for you to make a lame arguement that my paper boy has equal access to a governors tag because he "can bid if he wanted to".

Thats just ignorant talk...
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-22-12 AT 11:08PM (MST)[p]TOPGUN you said "What percent of the hunting population can afford that because it sure isn't 100% which it should be to not violate the NAM" also you stated that because you do not live right down from the expo in SLC that somehow that handicaps you? Well I live in Utah and my point is if we both apply for a Nevada or Arizona tag and I live closer is that not fair for you? Also have you looked at the price of nonresident tags lately? Are you telling me that 100% of hunters can afford to apply out of state? Don't think so does that violate the NAM also?
 
>LAST EDITED ON Apr-22-12
>AT 10:39?PM (MST)
>
>Come on Bob...
>
>Where does the NAM model specify
>what percentage can afford it?
>I don't see it any
>where. Please point out where
>the NAN specifies and supports
>your claims. I am an
>average guy and if I
>wanted to bid on any
>of the auction permits I
>can.
>
>I'm sure a 12 year old
>kid delivering papers is going
>to be able to out-bid
>Hamberlin for a strip deer
>tag.
>
>The NAM model is not about
>who can afford to hunt,
>the model was specifically set
>up for all citizens to
>have equal access to all
>wildlife resources. The intent wasnt
>there for you to make
>a lame arguement that my
>paper boy has equal access
>to a governors tag because
>he "can bid if he
>wanted to".
>
>Thats just ignorant talk...
>


It may be that your paperboy won't be outbidding too many people this year, but if that is what he wants to do he will have every opportunity to do so in the future. That's what makes this country so great. Who's to say Denny Austed, or Hamberlin weren't someone's paperboy at one time. My point is if a man truely wants to buy a high dollar tag he has every opportunity to do so.
 
Where did those definitions of the seven tenets come from? Who made those up?

I see no reference to the 'Public Trust Doctrine' or Martin vs Waddel 1842 where the legal standing is.

Alot of BS being blow around.

Kent
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-23-12 AT 08:43AM (MST)[p]>Where did those definitions of the
>seven tenets come from? Who
>made those up?
>
>I see no reference to the
>'Public Trust Doctrine' or Martin
>vs Waddel 1842 where the
>legal standing is.
>
>Alot of BS being blow around.
>
>
>Kent


Well, you're half right. There's a lot of BS blowing around this website in the form of:

1.SFW employees.
2.Outfitters/family in a position to personally gain finanacially by getting primo tags into the hands of your wealthy clients.
3. Don Peay himself, who pockets, what?.....half a mil a year in fees and doesn't even have a wildlife biology degree?

That is the bottom line.

You are all simply putrid to the sport.

***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
It may be that your paperboy won't be outbidding too many people this year, but if that is what he wants to do he will have every opportunity to do so in the future. That's what makes this country so great. Who's to say Denny Austed, or Hamberlin weren't someone's paperboy at one time. My point is if a man truely wants to buy a high dollar tag he has every opportunity to do so.


It would sure suck for Hamberlin and Austed if they had to apply in the draw like the paper boy...that would be wayyy too fair and make wayyy too much sense.

Let money ruin one more thing...

Congratulations?
 
Smokestick stated: "TOPGUN or should I say TOPGUN 30-06? (Oh, you are so clever)"

Is that all you've got there big boy?, or should I say "WYOBOB" who got outed by myself on the "rokslide" website the other day for all your BS to those members and not having the balls to tell them who you actually were, LOL! Then when outed you said that it was because people didn't ask who you were!!! FYI for some reason this website wouldn't allow me to put up the 30-06 part of my username that I use on every other website I'm on, so it's nothing like you're inferring what you got caught at and is a lot closer than the two completely different names you're using! How many other websites are you on and using different names?
ZIM is right on the button when he stated that most of the people on this site that are beating the SFW bandwagon are either employees of the organization(s)or have a vested interest in seeing them prosper because they are guides or outfitters that make their living from people that can afford these high priced tags and hunts. Being the Executive Director of the Wyoming Chapter, you should be absolutely ashamed of the statements you are making against the NAM on this thread and I hope all your "average Joe" members hear about it and tell you that you're out there by yourself on that one. It seems that everyone that puts up information that you disagree with is not factual, but EVERYTHING you post is. What a crock! Oh, I guess now you'll say what you're spouting is "just my opinion" since you always seem to qualify most of your posts with an "it's my opinion" even though you're in that high position with SFW and are always defending everything that is said even when it doesn't involve your Wyoming chapter!!! Thousands of hunters across the country are now finding out the true story and you're going to be putting out fires for some time to come!
 
zimmie, I think you and topgun have just been out debated on THIS subject you both thought you had under your control. Way to go Smokestick and Troy, I think you both answered all questions that zimmie and topgun distorted to fit the point they were trying to make.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-23-12 AT 09:54AM (MST)[p]What I find odd is the two biggest experts on this site on what is right for utah live back east.:)
 
OCK---You wouldn't know the truth or who won a debate on the NAM if it bit you in the AZZ! Saying either one of those two won anything with the BS they have posted, especially Smokestick, is an affront to every person who knows anything about the NAM and you obviously aren't one of them! Hey, are you an employee of SFW, a guide or outfitter by chance, or just plain stupid?
 
Maybe it's because we have the time to dealve into the truth and find things out instead of just posting stupid statements like you just did. FYI, this subject involves ALL hunters across the country so that this tag grabbing doesn't spread anywhere else. As I've said before, I could give a rip what happens in Utardville as long as it doesn't spread to other states like it's trying to!
 
Everything has been said and the only thing left to say is mutual respect and civility are DEAD!

Zeke
 
TOPGUN 30-06:

Really?

I established my user name on MM long before you even knew about it. Since moving to Wyoming, I have used the name WyoBob on many sites. You are just up set that I was asked to come over to that site to clarify and expose all of the mis-information being spread there, just like here. You didn't "out" me as the people running that site already knew me. Then as some Johnny-come-lately, you show up and run off your mouth with no facts, just assumptions.

The 7 Principles are from the link that Zim provided. Where I have mis-represented them?

Like I said before, this has nothing to do with SFW and everything to do with correcting the error of some that are flat out wrong in their assumption that the UDWR is violating the NAM. No that is just STUPID. Every state has something that is unique to it. Some require you to purchase your license before you can even apply for a limted entry or quota tag in a drawing. If you do not draw it, you can always hunt a general license but if you only want the draw tag and don't draw it do you think they will refund your hunting license? How fair does that seem? You and Zim are trying to interject fairness and that appears no where in the NAM. The 7 principles are clearly listed and explained for everyone to see.

Nope, TOPGUN, you are once again voicing your opinion and thinking that it automatically makes you correct. Zim provided the 7 Principles of the NAM all I did is demonstrate how you are stretching it to accomplish your desired outcome.

Gotta run and do something productive today. After all, I cannot spend all of my time on a computer like some.
 
Why don't you or zimmie answer Smokestick's question? Since your the authority on the NAM please inlighten me. So far you haven't, but Smokestick and Troy have. Make it clear cuz I'm not an employee of SFW or a guide or outfitter so I must be just plain stupid. PLEASE HELP ME.
 
>zimmie, I think you and topgun
>have just been out debated
>on THIS subject you both
>thought you had under your
>control. Way to go
>Smokestick and Troy, I think
>you both answered all questions
>that zimmie and topgun distorted
>to fit the point they
>were trying to make.

Hey billy,

Which of these 3 categories do you fit?

1.SFW employees.
2.Outfitters/family in a position to personally gain finanacially by getting primo tags into the hands of your wealthy clients.
3. Don Peay himself, who pockets, what?.....half a mil a year in fees and doesn't even have a wildlife biology degree?


***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
I'll say it again. None of the above. I'm just a sportsman looking for the correct answer to your question, not the distorted one your giving.
 
>I'll say it again. None
>of the above. I'm
>just a sportsman looking for
>the correct answer to your
>question, not the distorted one
>your giving.

Is that right?

I suppose you're going to claim your real name is Kenny King too?


***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
This would work. Let Obama take over this program. Soon as the rich buys the high price auction tag, he can spread the wealth out in this senerio. Tax the tag away from the rich guy, give it to the paperboy because everyone should be treated equal.

PS, Im not too old to take a paper route if it means I could get a awesome tag.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-23-12 AT 02:03PM (MST)[p]Where did OttercreekKid go?

I have a simple question for you. Is your real name Kenny King or not?

***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
>Everything has been said and the
>only thing left to say
>is mutual respect and civility
>are DEAD!
>
>Zeke


Amen.

4abc76ff29b26fc1.jpg
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-23-12 AT 03:20PM (MST)[p]>Oh no, zimmie you've blown my
>cover. What am I
>going to do now?

So billygoatboy, you admit you're a liar. Now how about the part about me calling you out that you have a vested interest in wealth tags? Here's your chance to admit the truth and make things right before I expose you.

You are just another liar like David Allen warns about:

March 28, 2012
To all Arizona RMEF Members
The Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation (RMEF) became aware of House Bill 2072, an act related to Big Game Tags and Permits introduced to the Arizona Legislature, earlier this month. The RMEF, representing over 5,500 members in Arizona and over 185,000 in the US, went on record opposing the bill in a letter to Arizona Governor Janice K. Brewer.
RMEF is now appealing to you, our members in Arizona, to make your voice heard on this poorly crafted legislation. HB 2072 would allocate a significant number of Arizona?s most prestigious and already limited permits to a ?conservation? organization, most likely, Arizona Sportsmen for Wildlife, the primary advocates of this legislation. This action would undermine one of the most basic tenants of the North American Wildlife Conservation Model?that hunting is an opportunity for all. The allocation of 330 special permits for auction and raffle in a state with already limited public opportunity would be nothing short of a travesty and it will take away tags from those who participate in the public draw system.
The absurdity of HB 2072 does not stop there. This bill allows the ?conservation? group selling these permits to exclusively retain an unreasonable percentage of the gross proceeds from the sale of these permits to cover administrative and operating expenses. The RMEF is proud to report that an average of only 8% of all Governor?s and Commissioner?s permits RMEF offers nationwide is retained for administrative purposes. 92% of the gross proceeds have been returned to the states and conservation projects to be invested only in benefiting wildlife and their habitat.
In Arizona specifically, RMEF currently returns 100% of the sale proceeds from the one special elk permit we sell. RMEF actually loses approximately $3,500 annually through direct expenses associated with handling the AZ elk permit. While RMEF believes it is appropriate for organizations to recover direct expenses associated with selling special permits, we firmly believe that private, non-profit entities should not take public assets to support their operational expenses. We operate RMEF the old fashion way, we work for what we get. We are not guaranteed any tags or licenses to create operational revenue.
As a member of RMEF and resident of Arizona it is time to contact your legislator and make your position known on HB 2072, or any similar legislative attempts to take public wildlife from the public. Please act today as this legislation would significantly impact your opportunity to hunt your prized big game species in your home state.
Sincerely,
M. David Allen President and CEO Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation


Birds of a father............


***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
I believe there has been a gross oversight in post # 31. It seems that Utahs' CWMU tags have been neglected from the comparison on tags. Although Utah does not have guide tags, the CWMU tags certainly are of the same category. I understand the program and don't need a lecture on the private land, benfits of a public tag blah, blah, blah. Simply believe these need to added into the count when looking at privatized tags.

So how many CWMU tags need to be added?
 
zimmie, I'm not clear on how I am a liar. If I have lied to you about anything I will apologize. If I did'nt,,,, well I guess this is just your way of avoiding your answer to Smokestick's question.
 
Here are a couple facts for you.

Utah has less hunting opportunity now than it did 18 years ago. That means less overall tags, shorter season, restricted weapon use etc.....

Also the hunt expo tag revenues are NOT being used on what they were intended/promised for.

Tony Abbott
The next buck to have a fawn will be the
1st.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-23-12 AT 09:44PM (MST)[p]Smokestick Post on rokslide---TOPGUN:
I am not going to answer every single question that has been asked about SFW but I will do my best to inform people that sincerely want to know the truth about SFW/BGF. I am the Executive Director of WY SFW. No one asked earlier. I was actually asked to come on this site to answer some of the questions that were being asked by one of my Board Members.

***So what is it Bob? You say there that your own SFW Board people asked you to go on rokslide to answer questions. Now you come on here and are intimating that the rokslide people asked and knew who you were. How about an answer as to, if they knew you and asked you onto the site, why one of the Administrators came on that thread and asked if you would please post on other Forums and threads instead of just that one? In case you need your memory jogged here is that request:

3 Days Ago#106
aron snyder
Administrator

Hey WyoBob,

It would be great if you could contribute more to Rokslide other than in this thread....not a requirement by any means, but it would be nice to see that you actually joined Rokslide.com to help others in getting into the outdoors and helping them become better hunters.
Thanks

Now Smokestick states on this thread:

TOPGUN 30-06:
Really?
I established my user name on MM long before you even knew about it. Since moving to Wyoming, I have used the name WyoBob on many sites. You are just up set that I was asked to come over to that site to clarify and expose all of the mis-information being spread there, just like here. You didn't "out" me as the people running that site already knew me. Then as some Johnny-come-lately, you show up and run off your mouth with no facts, just assumptions.

***FYI Mr. Wharff I was not a Johnny-come-lately on that website, but rather one of the initial members well before you joined the site! I just didn't know there was a thread about SFW where you were "spreading the word" (I'm being polite), but as soon as I found it I got in your poop just like I am here. You say everything you spout are facts and anyone that differs with you are liars, incorrect, etc. More than one person has stated on this, and other threads, that if everyone does not have an equal chance at those Utah tags that it is against the NAM and you were told why and where it violates the NAM. You basically say anyone can bid on the auction tags. How many bidders are there on most of those high roller tags since I, and most others, can't even afford the time and money to go all the way out to the Expo to even buy and validate a ticket the way the rules require? Maybe anyone cay bid and that's your "out" on this, but what if that paperboy spoken of in other posts bid and won? How's he going to pay for it? Your statement that anyone can bid on those tags is a scam at it's best and a lie at it's worst because it's as far off base as you can get!
Hangfire made the same type of post and mentioned some BS about inequality applying for tags in other states. I'm not aware of any state that doesn't allow everyone, regardless of where you live, to send in the applications by mail and/or online, which thereby puts everyone on an equal basis compared to the Utah tag requirements. Now you have stated in your last post this unbelievable statement: "You and Zim are trying to interject fairness and that appears no where in the NAM." Bob, that is so far off base I can't believe you would print such a sentence because the whole NAM IS based on FAIRNESS to everyone!!! Just keep spreading all your baloney and all it's doing is allowing more and more people to see the falacies that the SFW operates under! Finally you spout off this one to end your post: "Gotta run and do something productive today. After all, I cannot spend all of my time on a computer like some." I guess that means that I should now also apologize for doing three years in the service and then 30+ more years working before I retired and can do what in the He** I want any time I want---NOT!!! Too bad you're still young enough that you have to work for a living, but some day you'll enjoy what I now do every day! FYI, I called in a 24#11oz longbeard for a friend this AM before getting on the computer. I'll also be mentoring kids during our turkey season from Friday through Sunday. Does that qualify me in your book as doing anything positive for our sport, not that I give a chit what you think anyway!
 
Zim, you must be a goverment employee, just posting when the your on company time.
 
Tony, For my benefit, will you please explain your statement,
Thank You

Also the hunt expo tag revenues are NOT being used on what they were intended/promised for.
 
Outfitter corndog, if you think I'm making a special trip out there to dig up regs from 15 years ago just for you, you are smokin dope. I'll find them if I have time after loading up for my turkey hunt Friday. One hell of a low priority digging up crap like that for a loser like you.

You are barking up a sapling, trying to change the topic of the destruction of the NAMWC. Your toadie in WY is so drunk on SFW koolade & $$$ he is making himself look like a fool. Let it ride.

Your toadie billythekid is about to get exposed for what he is.


***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-24-12 AT 03:53AM (MST)[p]
>WE DEFIANTLY HAVE AN "EAST INFECTION
>" HERE ON MM!!!!

Yet another outfitter eager to sell out for money. The lies posted on this thread are all from western residents. Crooks know no bounds. At least your toadies don't. Does Alaska count for west or north?.......billy kid?

Where were all you in the 30 days following the AZ midnight tag rape attempt, and the Corri Rossi scandal? It was like a ghost town around here!

***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 

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