Utah’s DWR Proposals

elkantlers · Nov 9, 2021

I'd like to see them define a muzzleloader as having a ramrod that stores along the barrel.
Get rid of those stupid Paramount rifles.

CFMuley · Nov 10, 2021

elkantlers said:
I'd like to see them define a muzzleloader as having a ramrod that stores along the barrel.
Get rid of those stupid Paramount rifles.

Literally the only difference between a paramount and a normal muzzleloader that has the ramrod attached is a free floated barrel. There’s no difference in how you load or fire them. I killed a bull at 275 and a buck at 320 yards with my paramount this year. If the state decided to go back to single power scopes I’d be all for it. Hell, if they wanted to require conical and percussion caps, I’d be all for it, but regulating a muzzleloader based upon where the ramrod is stored seems silly.

roadrunner · Nov 10, 2021

schoolhousegrizz said:
All types of trail cams banned from Aug 1 to Jan 1. Limit rifle tags and turn them in to archery and muzzleloader tags. Rifle hunters can still have most their gadgets (no smart scopes) but it'll be harder to get tags. No thermal vision allowed. Shut down some of the road access and make more walk-in areas. No automatic smartsites on bows. No rifle hunts right during the peak rut for elk. Give out more LE tags. Make the general tags better, and LE more of a hunt, but still better than general. Muzzleloader requirements will be more like the old Hawkins muzzleloaders. Also, over the next five to ten years transition the point system to Nevada's system.

Decrease the trophy quality and the limiting of technology won't be necessary. Trophy quality is what drives the "need" for advanced technology...

elkantlers · Nov 10, 2021

CFMuley said:
Literally the only difference between a paramount and a normal muzzleloader that has the ramrod attached is a free floated barrel. There’s no difference in how you load or fire them. I killed a bull at 275 and a buck at 320 yards with my paramount this year. If the state decided to go back to single power scopes I’d be all for it. Hell, if they wanted to require conical and percussion caps, I’d be all for it, but regulating a muzzleloader based upon where the ramrod is stored seems silly.

^^^^^ this is why we shouldn't have them.^^^^^

Not the same at all. They are designed for long range shots. Muzzleloaders are historically short range weapons.

This is right from CVA Website.

The PARAMOUNT® and PARAMOUNT® PRO are. unlike any other muzzleloading rifle on the market These rifles were developed and designed to handle “super-magnum” propellant charges – and thus provides the higher velocities necessary for killing shots at 300 yards and beyond.
The PARAMOUNT® produces velocities in excess of 2200 FPS but, this is worth nothing without the accuracy to put those shots where they belong. For this, like all premium CVA’s, the PARAMOUNT® features a custom quality, free-floating Bergara® barrel in Nitride treated stainless steel. Paired with PowerBelt’s ELR bullets, which were specially designed for the PARAMOUNT®, this barrel can produce incredibly tight groups at ranges previously thought unreachable for a muzzleloader.
Also standard with the PARAMOUNT® is CVA’s VariFlame® Breech Plug, which uses the hotter and more consistent Large Rifle Primer by utilizing the VariFlame® technology by Cecil Epps, rather than the 209 Shot Shell Primer. For maximum comfort and stability, the PARAMOUNT® stock supports the barrel upon an internal aluminum chassis and offers full ergonomic adjustability of both length-of-pull and comb height.
An accessory pack including PowerBelt ELR bullets, VariFlame primer casings, loading tool for VariFlame® casings, collapsible loading rod, cleaning/range rod, and a Quake® CLAW® sling comes standard with every PARAMOUNT® rifle.

roadrunner · Nov 10, 2021

elkantlers said:
^^^^^ this is why we shouldn't have them.^^^^^

Not the same at all. They are designed for long range shots. Muzzleloaders are historically short range weapons.

Well, hunting is historically a means for subsistence but we all know that meat comes from the grocery stores now.

elkantlers · Nov 10, 2021

roadrunner said:
Well, hunting is historically a means for subsistence but we all know that meat comes from the grocery stores now.

Most of mine doesn't.

roadrunner · Nov 10, 2021

elkantlers said:
Most of mine doesn't.

Didn't say it did. Popular narrative though supports the phasing out of hunting because meat comes from the grocery stores and no need to kill animals anymore...

johnnyutah · Nov 10, 2021

BrowningRage said:
Johnnyutah, do you have any ideas on how to phase out that system in 5 years..? Serious question as I think the system has to change as well.

Just announce that it will be gone in 5. Those at the top of the pile will have to get serious about drawing. They will think twice before turning in a tag. They might put in for the Paunsagaunt instead of the Henries. It could be terminated in a year, but 5-years would be a courtesy to those who have been close to max points for the previous 20 years.

johnnyutah · Nov 10, 2021

BrowningRage said:
Johnnyutah, do you have any ideas on how to phase out that system in 5 years..? Serious question as I think the system has to change as well.

Another idea is just convert all points into preference points for 3-5 years. There isn't a general hunt anymore anyway. People can choose between quality and quantity units. Offering both like they do now just jams up the pipe for both. It would flush out those with 18+ points in a few years and a lot of people with 1 or two points would shift to the quantity units. There would be less pressure in both systems after a couple a years. Plus trophy hunters wouldn't be participating in the quantity units anymore and complaining about how awful they are because they didn't even see one buck over 190 and 7/8. It might get some of the hard core trophy hunters who are consistently destroying the genetics off of the general units.

roadrunner · Nov 10, 2021

johnnyutah said:
Another idea is just convert all points into preference points for 3-5 years. There isn't a general hunt anymore anyway. People can choose between quality and quantity units. Offering both like they do now just jams up the pipe for both. It would flush out those with 18+ points in a few years and a lot of people with 1 or two points would shift to the quantity units. There would be less pressure in both systems after a couple a years. Plus trophy hunters wouldn't be participating in the quantity units anymore and complaining about how awful they are because they didn't even see one buck over 190 and 7/8. It might get some of the hard core trophy hunters who are consistently destroying the genetics off of the general units.

Or, you can have people use their bonus points to "buy" extra chances for the Hunting Expo tags. If they win a hunt, their points are gone. If they don't, they get a credit for next year's expo for more extra chances, but they and their points are permanently out of the draw pools.

Attendees can use all species bonus points they have at the expo for all the species hunts listed, no having to choose a single LE or OIL hunt.

CFMuley · Nov 10, 2021

elkantlers said:
The PARAMOUNT® produces velocities in excess of 2200 FPS but, this is worth nothing without the accuracy to put those shots where they belong. For this, like all premium CVA’s, the PARAMOUNT® features a custom quality, free-floating Bergara® barrel in Nitride treated stainless steel. Paired with PowerBelt’s ELR bullets, which were specially designed for the PARAMOUNT®, this barrel can produce incredibly tight groups at ranges previously thought unreachable for a muzzleloader.
Also standard with the PARAMOUNT® is CVA’s VariFlame® Breech Plug, which uses the hotter and more consistent Large Rifle Primer by utilizing the VariFlame® technology by Cecil Epps, rather than the 209 Shot Shell Primer. For maximum comfort and stability, the PARAMOUNT® stock supports the barrel upon an internal aluminum chassis and offers full ergonomic adjustability of both length-of-pull and comb height.
An accessory pack including PowerBelt ELR bullets, VariFlame primer casings, loading tool for VariFlame® casings, collapsible loading rod, cleaning/range rod, and a Quake® CLAW® sling comes standard with every PARAMOUNT® rifle.

I killed my last muzzleloader buck at 295 yards with a CVA Acura with the ramrod mounted to the barrel. I’m not arguing that muzzleloaders shouldn’t be limited, but determining whether a muzzleloader is legal or not based on where the ramrod is stored is stupid. That’s on the same level of liberals wanting to ban AR’s because they look scary.

johnnyutah · Nov 10, 2021

roadrunner said:
Or, you can have people use their bonus points to "buy" extra chances for the Hunting Expo tags. If they win a hunt, their points are gone. If they don't, they get a credit for next year's expo for more extra chances, but they and their points are permanently out of the draw pools.

Attendees can use all species bonus points they have at the expo for all the species hunts listed, no having to choose a single LE or OIL hunt.

That's genius. The expo would get the exposure and notoriety and respect that it has always deserved plus it would flush out decades of point bloat and transfer it to the Expo.

roadrunner · Nov 10, 2021

CFMuley said:
I killed my last muzzleloader buck at 295 yards with a CVA Acura with the ramrod mounted to the barrel. I’m not arguing that muzzleloaders shouldn’t be limited, but determining whether a muzzleloader is legal or not based on where the ramrod is stored is stupid. That’s on the same level of liberals wanting to ban AR’s because they look scary.

A ramrod stored under the barrel has nothing to do with the muzzleloaders ability to shoot.

If it does, would the muzzleloader become inoperable should the ramrod fall out when busting through a jungle of brush?