UTAH F&G KILLING THE SHEEP IN 3CORNERS

[snowman22250]

OK----Here we go again.....
Im starting to very, very much dislike Utah the way it handles OUR wildlife.

Tell me...Would it not make more sense to let the public who put in the draw last year for 3 corners, go out and have the opportunity to harvest some of those Goslin 3 Corners Big Horn Rams.?????

BUT, NO, F&G has to go out and kill them all right NOW!!!!

Any comments??

Snowman

 

[dillon]

They are contagious if infected. Even if you do kill one they would probably not let you keep it for disease reasons. Plus they are not just killing rams, and you can't hunt ewes in Utah. I wish people could go out and hunt them but that isn't the way the system works. It would be a problem no matter what they do. Someone is always going to disagree. The herd is sick. Someone has to do something and legally as well. The state doing the killing is the best option from the legal standpoint.
Dillon

 

[littlebighorn]

There was a whole thread on this subject under the "sheep" heading a few weeks back. If you understand the nature of the problem you would recognize that the DWR has to move immediately to eliminate sick sheep, or the whole herd could be lost!

Managing wildlife is never as easy as it seems to us casual observers and I for one, very much admire the job that the DWR does.
I am glad I don't have thousands of people looking over my shoulder telling me how to do my job!

 

[snowman22250]

I do realize that.

I'm more concerned about "jumping the gun"... For example, CWD is also a disease...WI Fish and Game, and snipers killed off an entire portion of the state several years ago. To this day, they don't know if that was the right thing to do..

Did the WI F&G do the right thing???

Is Utah "jumping the gun", are they doing the right thing.
Is there any Biologist on MM that can tell us a little more about the problem(disease) at hand.??

Very hard questions to answer.

Snowman

 

[Daxter]

LAST EDITED ON Mar-12-10 AT 06:33PM (MST)[p]This explains quite a bit.

http://wildlife.utah.gov/dwr/newsfl...-disease-kills-northeastern-utah-bighorn.html

I understand that there is radio collar data that shows interaction between the Goslin and Bare Top herds, Bare Top interacts with Sheep Creek, etc. They took out a sick sheep and had the lung tissue analyzed at a diagnostic lab. It came back positive for a strain of deadly and contagious pneumonia that is wiping out sheep herds in MT, NV, and UT right now.

Really a sad deal. I know the guy that started that Goslin herd with transplanted sheep from MT. He had to make the call to take them out, and I know that it was a really really tough decision for him to make.

Dax

 

[dwalton]

Snoman,

Please educate yourself on pasturella by joining the WSF or some of its chapters. If nothing is done, the herd will experience about an 80% die-off followed by 90%+ of the lamb crops for several years afterwards. Since this herd is known to interact with other herds, something has to be done quickly. The Bare Top and the Sheep Creek herds could be at severe risk if the wildlife agency doesn't "jump the gun".

Believe this: when it comes to wild sheep management, I'm really confident that the state agencies know what they are doing.

Nobody likes to see the die offs, but for now they are a reality in sheep management. It's a reminder that even though sheep live in some of the most rugged country around, they are quite possibly the most fragile big game animal in North America.

 

[dwalton]

Snowman,

One other thing. CWD and Pasturella are two completely different diseases. CWD is caused by a virus-like prion, and can take several years to manifest itself into symptons showed by the host animal. Pasturella is caused by a bacteria, is highly contagious, and kills the sheep very rapidly. If the game wardens can quickly kill the animals that are showing symptoms of pasturella, there's a chance the healthy sheep may survive the out-break.

Hope this helps.

 

[littlebighorn]

+1 dwalton,

Casual observance of anything makes our opinions tenuous at best. The DWR has some very competent biologists who are in the middle of serious decisions like eliminating sick and highly contagious animals.
Hopefully their quick action saved opportunities to hunt sheep in that area in the future. For now I only hope they "jumped the gun" enough to accomplish that.

 

[snowman22250]

FYI
That herd "should" be back to it's current numbers in another 25 years. The Key word is "should" be back. Would have been nice to let a few "bonus point holders" go hunt and tag a couple of the rams in that unit.

FYI--That was my biggest concern..letting a few guys in the "bonus point pool", get a tag. Just 2-3 less guys in the bonus point pool.

I guess I'll have to keep me mouth shut,,,as there seams to be alot of MM'ers on here, that know how to manage, patrol, police, educate, castrate, on and on...PHD's on Utah wildlife...Starting to sound like some of these Non-Profit organizations...lol

snowman

 

[UThunting]

I do not think that it is just the sheep deal that has made snowman jump on here and start a fuss. I think that it has started before this as I will agree to dis-agree with Utah fish and game and some of there choices. But it sounds like in this one it might have been the right call only time will tell...

 

[UThunting]

Snowman I need you to find a nice quite place that you can relax so that I can ask you a few questions..
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Ok are you comfortable
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Good
Now I want you to answer a few questions so that I can help you out
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When is your earlyist memorie of seeing or hearing about the Utah fish and game????
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So at that time did you feel like the fish and game was out to get you???
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SO when was it that you first felt like the fish and game was out to get you???
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And how long have you been putting in for this so called limmited tags???
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And how much money have you spent over the years waiting for that once in a lifetime permit??
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OK I see your point. Now what is it that we can do to change these feeling.
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So if You thought that if you had a chance in what you call hell of getting one of these once in a lifetime tags you would feel better about this whole sheep deal...
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So why is it called a once in a lifetime if only a few people in there lifetime might get one of these tags??
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Ohh I see so there is a limited entry that should be called once in every 2to 3 lifetimes and there is a once in a lifetime hunts that should be once in every 10 to 11 lifetimes .
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You say there is non profit org that can sell these tags every year to the highest bidder??? Is this not normal for a state to sell some of there tags to gain revinue for wildlife???
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You say that Utah has hundreds of these tags??? I dont think they could have hundreds of these tags that they sell maybe just a handful of tags..
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Why would Utah have as you say hundreds of these limited tags for sale and other states only have a handful???
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So maybe your problam is the way they make you feel like you are going to have a so called chance in Hell of getting one of these tags and then you see people that can afford to pay to hunt them every year or so and this puts a sour taste in your mouth??? And then you hear about some sheep that are being killed with no draws no auctions and that makes you feel cheated in some way???
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Well All I can say to you MR Snowman is I would bett that there is a lot of people out there that feel the same way as you and I am sure they would jump on this band wagon and ride it also But this is one of the 3 or 4 out 0f 10 or 11 times that the fish and game MIGHT just be right in what there doing at this time.. What I think you need to do is drink this coolaid not the blue coolaid but the red koolaidand this will help u not see the fish in game the way that most see them and you can be happy in life without your limited to every 3 or 4 to 10 too 11 people that will get them..

 

[dwalton]

Snowman,

This is NOT a hunt. This is the G&F personnel removing diseased animals (ewes, lambs, & rams). How sporting would it be to allow a few tagholders to walk up to a sick & coughing sheep and shoot it. Furthermore, once killed, the "sportsman" wouldn't be able to keep the animal because of disease transmission risk.


I've tried to explain, but I guess you're anrgy because you think you should have the chance to shoot one of these drooling, coughing, disease-riddled sheep.


The sad fact is until a solution to pneumonia is found, every sheep herd in the West is vulnerable to major die-offs.

 

[dwalton]

Snowman,

One last time, so hopefully you gain gain some insight to the bigger picture (from Utah Wildlife News, Mar. 1). Best regards.

Tough decisions

When a deadly disease infects a herd, wildlife managers have very few options. Native wild sheep have several things going against them: they're very social animals, and they've evolved with few defenses or immunities against diseases. As a result, most diseases can be deadly to wild sheep. And those diseases can rapidly infect all the bighorns in an area.

Wildlife managers are left with two choices: watch the sheep die or try to keep the disease from spreading to other bighorns by severely culling (taking) animals from the herd.

"We've been watching similar events unfold in Montana, Washington and Nevada," says Leslie McFarlane, DWR wildlife disease coordinator. "There's no known cure for pneumonia in bighorns. it's not hazardous to livestock or humans.

"Taking infected sheep is the only way to prevent the disease from spreading to other bighorns in the herd," McFarlane says. "It's also the most humane thing to do. When sheep get pneumonia, it's almost always fatal. We want to end the suffering as quick as we can."

As of Feb. 22, 2010, the DWR had taken 26 bighorns from the Goslin herd. Biologists are closely monitoring another small band from this herd. Biologists haven't noticed any coughing, but they're concerned that these animals could also be infected.

Surveys of bighorns in nearby herds indicate that the animals in these herds are healthy.

"Our biggest concern is stopping the spread of the disease to the Bare Top, Carter Creek and Sheep Creek herds," Greenwood says. "We are still trying to locate all of the animals in the Goslin unit. It's not a pleasant task, but we know if we don't get ahead of the disease, we could lose everything."

 

[newbaby]

better to kill a few sick animals than risk the death or health of the whole herd on the unit or the adjacent units.
If you are one of those hunters who wants to kill a sick or weak animal then maybe you should go to school and become a biologist that might one day get ordered to kill some sick sheep, deer, or elk.
Last time I checked it was the hunt that I remember not the killing.
If killing is your forte then maybe you could look into a job as a slaughter man at the local slaughter house.......

 

[snowman22250]

Clint,

Do you have me confused with another snowman.
This is Rob Snow from Sandy, Ut. You know, ID late muzzy, CO 52 a couple years ago, we've spoke a few times on the phone.

Your post didn't make sense, for where did I complain about Utah having hundreds of these tags for sale, etc, etc,

FYI-I have about 5 desert big horn points....NOT ever planning on hunting sheep.

I spoke to ROBB "pleasedeer", he was in 3 corners taking pictures of sheep, he felt the herd looked very healthy in 3corners, and Goslin......SO, for the comment about chasing and hunting "SICK" sheep, I DON"T AGREE WITH YOU. It sounds to me there are only a few sick sheep right now. As so, letting a hunter take these rams "to me" would still be an memorable hunt and opportunity for someone. NOT me, as Im not interested in a Rocky Ram, as so that blows your hypothesis right out the door about me..???

Clint---I always did like the Grape Flavor Koolaide, you little ##### azzzzzzz.

Snowman

 

[In_the_Shadows]

Snowman,

Just a little more info. on the subject. Nevada is experiencing a severe die off right now in its premier rocky mountain bighorn unit. Estimates are anywhere from 60-80% of the herd has succombed to this disease, which is the exact disease that they are hoping to stop in Utah. Once it takes hold there is really nothing that can be done (that has been proven to work). Aside from DWR employees dispatching the animals exhibiting signs of the disease in an attempt to protect the animals that haven't been infected yet, there really is no way to stop the spread of disease.

I have a question for you though, do you really think that if the DWR said "we've got an infected sheep herd so we are going to give out a few tags to the general public to help stop the spread of the disease," that the people holding these bighorn tags would really be looking for infected animals? I highly doubt they would opt to shoot the decrepit 2 year old ram, if a perfectly healthy 6 year old ram also presented a shot.


Its lonely at the top.... just the way I like it.

 

[snowman22250]

LAST EDITED ON Mar-17-10 AT 12:59PM (MST)[p]I agree on young animals. Let the F&G handle it. But there would be a ton of people wanting to have a chance at one of those mature rams, sick or not.

Im not a Ram hunter, because I can't afford it. But, I would guess most "RAM" hunters hunt for the trophy rights, I don't think it would really matter if it was a sick animal, or heatlhy.

I have participated in a Depredation hunt before, and harvested a fine trophy bull elk. You can't tell me people would not line up, to have a chance at harvesting 1 or 2 mature Rams.

So, am I wrong at suggesting to let a couple RAM hunters take the mature RAMs, and in the process, take those same hunters out of the bonus point pool???

Snowman

 

[newbaby]

You have to look at on a time frame issue. The longer it takes for the DWR to call those hunters that are on the alternative list (that is how it is done to be fair), find the hunters that they need and tell them that they need to be there by 6am. and then have them show up and show them the ram that they would have to shoot. Could and would cause problems. Complaints would come in form those not called ot hunt, and form some of those that were picked to hunt and did not want ot kill the size of ram they were told to shoot.
The DWR are not guides and are not in babysitters.
if sheep are sick the call is made to kill them and the biologists and officers in that area are sent to that area, briefed and hopefully the sick animals are all killed.
Can you see the issues of having to baby sit certain hunters so they can kill a dying animal.
I hear a lot of people say that the DWR are only out for the publics money. This should go a long way to clarify that complaint. DWR's biggest concern is not money but a healthy herd to hunt.
So if I hear you right if it were up to you the DWr would call 10 permittees to kill 10 rams, most of which are young rams, and then on top of that the DWR would have to somehow shoot the other female sheep at teh same time before they all got out of range.
It would be nice to take a few hunters out of the draw, but there is no way this could happen with infected animals, that possess a threat to the entire states sheep population.

 

[snowman22250]

If the calls been made, and the F&G is on it. They should all be dead by now. So it really doesn't matter anymore.

My special elk hunt(dec depredation hunt), took 2 weekends to take a couple dozen elk(all bulls). That seams pretty fast to me.

Utah F&G, sent us all a map. Then we called the F&G, and had to take the elk to them, as so they could pull teeth, and register the harvest. NO BABYSITTING involved.

100% effective, in 2 weekends. No babysitting required. It was our job to bring the animals to the F&G.

 

[cb]

"Im not a Ram hunter, because I can't afford it. But, I would guess most "RAM" hunters hunt for the trophy rights, I don't think it would really matter if it was a sick animal, or heatlhy."

I think you would be hard pressed to find even ONE hunter who has hunted wild sheep or knows what sheep hunting takes mentally and phsyically to participate in killing one of these sick sheep under any circumstances.
If it don't 'matter' to them, they are not a hunter period.

 

[newbaby]

Lets clarify the difference between your depredation hunt and this.
your depredation hunt more than likely was conducted die to bull elk coming into a hay stack or field depredating on the farmers crop.
Not something that had to happen on a whims notice, your hunt took place cause the DWR had some problem bulls that were more than likely repeat offenders recruiting more bulls every year, costing the DWR a ton of $ in damage payments.
The ram hunt is for sheep that need to be killed ASAP, before they get a chance to contact other sheep.
Balieve me if there was a ram hunt it would be on a much stricker scale.
I would not pay anything to kill a sick ram, and potentially a young ram.
Did you know that for a ram to become even close to making the boon and crocket the age of the ram is usually at least 9, and more times than not the ram is 11+ if not broomed off.

I know that if anyone in my hunting camp went on one of these hunts and bragged about the hunt in any way I think his day's would be numbered in my camp.
If i got a call to use my points on this hunt I would pass...

 

[snowman22250]

I would burn my points on a "Depredation" hunt.
Now, are you saying hunting starving animal (depredation)is OK, but diseased animals are NOT>????
snowman

 

[snowman22250]

I just read Bry's "just a word" thread.
He's right. Most the time we don't think of the F&G as being human, nor do we Don(SFW), but they are human just like the rest of us...They need to make a living, as we all do. Give them all a break now and then. After all, they have very difficult jobs, they take alot of criticism.

Snowman

 

[cactusjack7mm]

I had a bear tag a few years ago and DWR CALLED ME and asked if I wanted to shot this bear. This was a PROBLEM BEAR lost its fear of man. One week it had chased fishermen into their boats the next week he found him self in a campground raiding coolers.
They needed this bear DEAD QUICK. They called me at 10:00 am in the morning and I was chasing him by 4:00pm. It took me 3 and a half hour drive to get there. The bear was only a 2 YEAR OLD, NO TROPHY. This was the most physical demanding and dangerous hunt I had ever been on.
Dwr should have shot the bear before they even called me, but they gave me a opportunity to harvest. If they called RAM HUNTERS I guaranty they would be on the mountain WITHIN HOURS. Sick or not these rams would most likely be a physical and challenging hunt. Call 100-200 hunter make it a free for all. If they dont shoot a TROPHY RAM they get their points back. I bet 100% of all rams 1 YEARS AND OLDER would be dead in the first two days. Hunter would SLAUGHTER them faster than the DWR could. Just think hunter would be saving the DWR lots of money. Does the DWR have 100-200 people out there killing them? NO NO NO
but but but there sick.....GIVE ME A BREAK

I'M WITH YA ON THIS ONE SNOWMAN

 

[snowman22250]

LAST EDITED ON Mar-19-10 AT 12:30PM (MST)[p]I totally forgot about that bear hunt little bro. That too was like a depredation hunt. The F&G called you. Heck, we both have had great depredation hunts.

snowman