Utah Mule Deer Committee

2lumpy

2lumpy

Long Time Member
Messages
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LAST EDITED ON Jun-08-14 AT 07:21PM (MST)[p]?Utah Mule Deer Hunters? or ?Those Interested In Hunting Mule Deer? in Utah

My Name is DeLoss Christensen
My email address is: [email protected]
My personal phone number is 435-979-5521

Currently I am a member of the Utah Mule Deer Committee, engaged in assisting the development of Utah Division of Wildlife Resource?s next Five Year Mule Deer Management Plan.

Many months ago I asked to be consider for the committee and was appointed by whom ever at the UDWR makes these appointments, to serve on the committee. I am a paying member to a number of different wildlife conservation and hunting organizations. I am a committee member of the Sevier Chapter of Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife. I am not presently an officer in any of these organizations however I have been an officer, for a number different groups, over the years, both locally and on the State level.

I love the outdoor life style, all aspects of it. I'm 67 years old. I have three sons, two daughters, eleven grandchildren, all of which love the outdoors as well. Born and raised in Southern Alberta, Canada, lived in the US for 46 year lived in Utah for 42 years.

I hear from a lot of different sportsmen, landowners and State and Federal Agents regarding hunting and fishing issues, I guess because they know I like to talk about it. There is diversity of wants, needs and opinions, that I can say for certain.

I have wants, needs and opinions mine as well, one of them is my passion for mule deer and what deer hunting, in general, brings to the table to the outdoor life style. Like the horse to the cowboy, the snow to the skier and the water the fisherman, the deer and particularly the mule deer, so far as the State of Utah is concerned, is the lynch pin to the future of hunting. For many, many reasons, the conservation, propagation and the proliferation of mule deer are the glue that will preserver and protect the Utah outdoor life style into the future and without a viable mule deer population, the lifestyle could and would most likely slowly slip away, like so many of our valued traditions have all ready done.

Serving on the Mule Deer Committee I have five goals, really just three, in that number 4 and 5 relate back to what happens with the first three.

I will not respond to questions on this post or any other public internet forum because these forums while these forums have significant value generally they too often end up turning negative rather than productive. Of course, I have no objections to your discussing anything I've written here on Monster Muley, I just won't be responding to you this way. I will however be more than happy to respond to any e-mails you may care to forward to me or take any phone calls you may wish to make. I'm willing to change my mind or my opinion, if you can help me see things differently,

I will be tied up and non-responsive until Monday, June 9th. You?re free to e-mail me any anytime but I won't be able to talk via phone prior to then.

This is where I'm coming from, on the Mule Deer Committee

Goals I believe we should attempt to achieve in the 5 year plan, amongst others.

1. Increase to total population of healthy deer on every unit that is under carrying capacity.

(Large, healthy populations of mule deer will provide more opportunity to hunt without having to over harvesting the population, that is, create more surplus. A healthy deer herd presumes the herd is being managed according to sound/proven scientific methodologies. Large mule deer populations must also be managed within the constrains of social, political, private and public land restraints and realties.)

2. Unite archery, muzzleloader, rifle hunters who are made up of two primary groups, those that wish to hunt and harvest any deer and those that wish to hunt and harvest more mature deer.

(To best grow, conserve and hunt surplus mule deer in the State of Utah, next to increasing the (State wide and unit by unit) mule deer population, the most important work the committee faces is uniting the archery, muzzleloader, rifle hunting groups, which are made up of hunters that wish to maximize opportunity (meaning they wish to hunt as much and as often as the resource can support and mature deer hunters who seem to be willing to spend less days a-field if it means they'll be seeing and harvesting more mature deer) behind a mutually agreeable distribution of our limited hunting opportunities.

Recognizing, the State has (and will most likely always have) fewer deer than there are people that want a deer hunting permit. Further, I understand the plan will never ( can never, due to our diversity) make everyone happy but we must seek to create an ?agreed to equity? amongst the different groups represented by the committee, then the best we can hope to do is spread the resource as widely as we can, within each group?s equitable share of the resource.

We must attempt to bring sportsmen together, with the UDWR (?our? State Wildlife Agency).

The current and past quarrels between hunting groups have been harmful to all sportsmen, and ?to the best of our ability? mule deer management to should be negotiated until all consumptive parties come to an ?agreed to equity?.)


3. The committee must review the current mule deer draw system.

(Now that we have the ability to micro-manage smaller mule deer units, we can and should consider alternatives to the Premium, Limited Entry, and General Season draws. We should explore solutions for Goal #4 (below) with in a different then present deer draw system. The committee should ?explore alternatives? however the committee may learn that leaving it the way it is currently will be the best we can provide, but let's think through some alternatives, before we decide to do that. (Personally I believe if we put our collective heads together, in a positive objective way, we can find way?s to provide more opportunity and move hunters through the preference point system as well.))

4. Goal four should be to make sure Goals 1, 2 and 3 address hunter demand.

(The only reason sportsman want large surplus producing deer herds is to make it possible to hunt and harvest these animals. Zoo?s, wildlife preservers and National Parks, etc. provide ample viewing opportunity to satisfy the demand for the non-hunting public to see these wonderful animals. The kind and size of deer herds this committee should be (and is) concerning it's self with are meeting the demand of the divers hunting public.

In as much as an ?ever increasing? number of sportsmen are applying for Premium and Limited Entry units each year, the time between the opportunities to hunt mature animals becomes longer and longer. (point creep as its now being called) That is not to suggest or infer that the demand to ?just hunt? as often as possible is not growing as well however, if the increase in applications in the number of Limited Entry hunts is not telling us that more and more people, ?every year?, are ?voting with their dollars? (it cost's more to hunt a limited entry unit than a general season unit) to hunt more mature animals or to hunt with less hunter pressure, how can point creep be explained?

If it's possible, we need to try to develop solutions in Goals 1, 2 and 3. that will relieve pressure on the preference point system, even if, 20 years from now it needs to be altered and updated again. (Returning to a 100% random draw does not seem to make a lot of sense to most people but it to should at least be considered, so those that want a random draw can be given a reasonable explanation as to why not.)

5. Develop a new concept in surveying social (family and friends) opportunities associated with Goal 1,2,3,4.

(I'm okay with surveys but there is nagging concern that we're asking the right questions and that we're interpreting the results correctly. I'll like the committee to consider ways to measure hunter choices and hunter demand, not by how hunters respond to a written or verbal set of questions, but I'd like to really look closely at hunters actual behaviors and what hunters actually do or what hunters did, rather than base our decisions on what they "say" they want. If that makes sense.)

I look forward to hear what your goals would be, and why.

DC
 
So when the survey comes back and shows
That over 70% of those responding just want
To hunt deer with friends and family, this won't be
An accurate assessment of what hunters REALLY want?



"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
your deer committee is a joke, how long are you and dwr going to keep screwing the publics wild life., to make money??
 
It sounds like Deloss is on the right track. I don't see what good it does to complain here. Lots of special interest groups at the table. We need to make sure sportsmen opportunity is the primary interest and a bigger healthier herd means more opportunity for all. I think we are slowly heading in the right direction, but I guess I'm selfish in the fact I don't want it to take my entire lifetime to turn things around.

So here we have someone with a voice to effect change, reaching out to us. It might be wise for us to try and take advantage of the opportunity.
 
So what happens in 5 years when a general season unit starts taking 5 Preference Points to draw due to large deer numbers and more mature animals to hunt..??

They will turn it into an LE unit and sell conservation tags.

What happens when an LE unit stops producing mature animals..??

They open it to general season hunting.

No matter how you slice it, it seems obvious that they will always want LE units and general season units. I believe it is this way because of the conservation tags.


Anyone have any ideas on how to change the state to just "units" where some take no points to draw, and others take 20 years to draw..?? Oh wait, then you have to take into account that you can only put in for one species at a time, so if the whole state is gonna just be units, wouldn't you have to choose each year which species to put in for..?? No general season elk with a general season deer...

Another reason the state is locked into LE and general season units...

Pretty frustrating.



"Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!" 2 Ne. 28: 24
 
Utah deer hunting is screwed up bad!

Bottom line: too many hunters, not enough deer. That will never change!

I propose putting all the deer hunts in one point system, probably the ridiculous Bonus point system, or the Preference point system, or best choice would be a random draw. Then demand/quality would drive the odds and opportunity. If one wants to hunt almost every year, apply for the Cache and try to kill a spike. If one want real quality, apply for Henry Mt and wait 45 years to draw, and kill a 200 incher. Its really pretty simple.
 
Deloss I've heard you are representing the public at large. Is this true? If you are representing the public was there a vote? How did you get appointed ?Or are you representing SFW?
No offense but after following your posts on this site through out the years. In no way shape or form do your ideas pertaining to mule deer in this state and management practice coincide with the way I feel about the direction you want to take deer hunting in this state.
We don't want more L.E. Units , we don't look for every possible way to take more people off the mountain just to make killing a big buck easier after years of waiting. Hell most of us just want to hunt and if your willing to get off your ass and put in some hard work you can hunt big bucks every year if you so choose.
 
I like to rag on Deloss a lot, but on the Mule Deer issue I really don't think he would side with SFW for more conservation tags to be given to them. I know he is focused and dedicated to improving the Mule Deer issues. He gets sidetracked on other things, but he is a real "Bull Dog" when it comes to Mule Deer. I just hope the committee can improve the draw point crawl as well as increasing our deer herds.
 
Is the list of committee members public information now . Awhile back I was interested in who all got appointed and who they where representing. I was told that the information I was looking for was not going to be made public. Why not? I mean if we are dealing with public land and public assets(deer) I thinks it's only right that the people on this mule deer committee be made public info since they are the ones dictating where and how often we get to hunt these deer that we care so much about.
I would like a list of members names and email so I could voice my option on issues pertaining to deer in this state.
 
Deloss,

Thank you for coming on here and asking for input. However, you lost me when you mentioned you are a committee chair for $port$men for Fi$h and Wildlife. I'm a middle aged, average income, lifetime hunter with young kids and $port$men For the Wealthy no longer represents the best interests of my endangered species - the common hunter. I can only hope that you will use your position of influence for the greater good and not a $elect few. Best of luck!
 
when your kids and grandkids cant get a tag, but cwmus expos and banquets have them to sell,that should tell you something,!!!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-06-14 AT 09:40AM (MST)[p]Remember, the Mule Deer Committee can only make recommendations. Those recommendations then go to the RACs and then the Wildlife Board. The RACs and the WB have and will make changes over the 5 year Mule Deer plan. Deloss will do what he thinks is best. There are so many voices with different opinions about how to improve deer hunting. They have to figure out what they think would be the best balance. The Conservation and Convention permits have become a critical source of funding for all kinds of projects that benefit big game. You can be mad at all the different sportsmen groups because nearly everyone of them fund part of their operations with the money they get through tag auctions. You could take all the tags that theses groups get and put them back into the general draw and you would see very little increase in your opportunity to get a tag. The money generated through auction tags especially, would be lost and the benefits that money has been used for to help big game would no longer be available to benefit big game.
I know what it was like to hunt large populations of Mule deer near the end of the hay days of the 60's as a kid. That will never happen, but it can get better. If you want to be able to hunt every year--- you can. There are more opportunities to hunt now than ever- elk, turkeys etc-- If you just want to hunt deer only then you will have to wait just like everyone else to draw and in the meantime support every effort to get the deer population growing even more. You will get more opportunity as we get more deer. By the way CWMU's are private entities and those deer would not be available to hunt if they are on closed private property anyway. Thanks to everyone who is involved and helping.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-06-14 AT 01:28PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jun-06-14 AT 09:38?AM (MST)

>Is the list of committee members
>public information now . Awhile
>back I was interested in
>who all got appointed and
>who they where representing. I
>was told that the information
>I was looking for was
>not going to be made
>public. Why not? I mean
>if we are dealing with
>public land and public assets(deer)
>I thinks it's only right
>that the people on
>this mule deer committee be
>made public info since they
>are the ones dictating where
>and how often we get
>to hunt these deer that
>we care so much about.
>
>I would like a list of
>members names and email so
>I could voice my option
>on issues pertaining to deer
>in this state.

Go to UtahWildlife.net, Big Game, Mule Deer Committee Members thread (post 49, I think) or email the DWR for the info.

FWIW, I'm also on the committee and have disclosed that on the other forum, (and now this one) and like DeLoss, I prefer not to get into too much of a debate on these forums regarding the meeting discussions. And like DeLoss, I'm willing to hear your suggestions via emails ([email protected]) but unlike DeLoss, I won't give you my phone number 'cause I value what little sleep I get.

Lee Tracy (UWC)
 
Thanks Deloss,
Thanks for your passion and disire to help provide feedback and pass along suggestions to make things better for our deer herd and hunting. You seem to be well informed and gather ideas from many sources, as demonstrated in this post.
Thanks.
 
Interesting.
-Get one point system, not 2.
Tough to do however, because collecting money in 2 different draws is very appealing. SAD

-Make sure are several areas / Hunts that people can get every year if they want.
More primitive weapons, etc

-Significantly reduce the number of PURCHASE TAGS.
Why?
Because if guys can buy a tag every year, they are FAR less interested in fixing the problems that face the masses.
See how Putin makes great things available to the rich, and the rest will never get anything resolved.
 
Nebo you are 100% incorrect. The actual
Numbers of permits going back in to the draw
Would be a drop in the bucket.

However the never ending push for bigger animals
And limited hunting is driven by these permit
Prices and the groups that auction them is where the damage
Is done.

The RACs WB and Division is so dependent on
This Ponzi scheme that they repeat the myth.

I was in the room when Director Karpowitz
Begged the elk committee not to turn Utah's elk herds from
Norfstroms to Walmart.

Same elk committee the discussion was rampant
About maintaining price for the permits.

Quit it with the smoke and mirrors.


"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
Yea Nebo deer hunting is now a lot better than it was 10 to 15 years ago?? Those CWMU's would just sell trespass permits, and not have a 3 month hunt.
 
Or the private landowners could just close their property completely and only they get to hunt it. How's that for more opportunity. Are you saying that you used to be able to hunt private property and since the inception of CWMU's you can' do that anymore ? I think "deer hunting" is about the same as it was 15-20 years ago s far as how many deer there are. Whose fault is it ? What would you do to make it better ?
 
>Nebo you are 100% incorrect. The
>actual
>Numbers of permits going back in
>to the draw
>Would be a drop in the
>bucket.
>
>However the never ending push for
>bigger animals
>And limited hunting is driven by
>these permit
>Prices and the groups that auction
>them is where the damage
>
>Is done.
>
>The RACs WB and Division is
>so dependent on
>This Ponzi scheme that they repeat
>the myth.
>
>I was in the room when
>Director Karpowitz
>Begged the elk committee not to
>turn Utah's elk herds from
>
>Norfstroms to Walmart.
>
>Same elk committee the discussion was
>rampant
>About maintaining price for the permits.
>
>
>Quit it with the smoke and
>mirrors.
>
>
>"The future is large scale auction
>tags.
>The majority of the tags should
>go up
>for auction anually. It MIGHT even
>be
>good to allow second sales of
>auction
>tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
>
>and then re-selling them to the
>public."
>TRISTATE 8/17/2012

How many Bighorn sheep units do we have in the state now compared to 20 years ago- auction tag money funded almost the entire amount needed to establish more units- wouldn't have happened without it.
There are about 70,000 more elk in the state than when I was starting to hunt as a kid. Yeah, it takes money to do the stuff we all expect the DWR to do. Maybe you have better thoughtful solution to how to fund the management and the growth of big game in Utah. When I started hunting, you could buy an elk tag every 5 years, then 3 years and then every year. You can still buy an open bull unit tag every year or get a spike elk tag every year-- You can hunt elk every year now if you want to and it has nothing to do with auction tag prices.
Certainly, deer is where most of the heartburn is among sportsmen, but I don't see how auction tag prices have any negative impact on how many deer we have in the state. Most of the auction tag money goes right back into habitat work, which is hoped will increase deer population.
 
We are digressing from DeLoss's original post but I think the concern being expressed by some is that at times it appears as though the tail is wagging the dog. Instead of focusing sportsmen across the board and using every dollar raised from conservation and convention permits on actual conservation so as to increase our herd numbers it seems that at times we focus on managing our wildlife in a manner so as to maximize the dollars raised by these groups. This should not be the case.

I remain cautiously optimistic regarding what can be accomplished by the Mule Deer Committee. I hope that they can make some recommendations that will help our herds and increase both opportunity and quality. However, we all need to recognize that there are no easy solutions or quick fixes. Good luck to the committee members and I hope to have the opportunity to sit in and listen to a couple of the meetings.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Bowtech Destroyer
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
 
DC---we all know you bleed $FW Blood....

I kinda have come to believe in you as being more about our Mule Deer than your constant Posts about how we all need $FW...

BUT---

Once 'hunting50' sucked up to you----that kinda told all of us you are still $FW tried and true...

Damn the luck man----

Robb
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-06-14 AT 03:46PM (MST)[p]Robb,

I said thanks to any sportsmen. Including Deloss. it does'nt matter if he belongs to a group. many groups, or just volunteers his time to make things better for a sport that I love to do. It's called hunting. I guess you have a problem with me saying thanks for someone volunteering his time, gather opinons and data, to try to help out. I thought you were a little more reasonable.

Greg
 
Nebo,

I will buy into your argument when you explain the uniqueness of Utah and the reason they could not accomplish the goals without wealth tags.

I hear our surrounding states have increased there elk herds, sheep herds, moose herds, turkeys rafters etc. and have not used wealth tags as the source of funding.

IMO Utah was the state willing to sell out the whole for a special interest group. Lets just hope a wealthy "conservationist" never stands and rally's sportsmen on the Capitol Hills of the surrounding states or our opportunity to participate in those states risk being sold to the highest bidder.

Anyway the proof of a man is in his actions. We will soon see if 2lumpy represents sportsman or SFW. Never met him but I believe we will see him work for the betterment of our deer herds in the long term.

I would urge all of us to take the time to send him an email as sportsman on where we would like to see the emphasis placed. Then he has a fair opportunity of representing a cross section of the sportsman rather than a coffee shop, a conservation organization or a family. He can only take to the committee what he hears.
 
As long as SFW wolves are in the hen house Utah will never change for the better...
Either those of you in Utah get together and stop the wholesale pimping of your resources by getting involved in the hen house as well or you get what you get...Complaining here is not going change it.
 
Hey, look, call a spade a freaking spade here.
We have the current prohibitive form of mule deer
Hunting almost exclusively because of DeLoss
And SFW. Not one other org supported this exclusive
Train wreck we have now. Not one group, understood??

Why in the hell would I think either leopard would change
It's spots??

Either you support hunting every few years to produce bucks
For the inch crowd or you just want to hunt. Simple as that.

Nobody is changing, regardless of what the hunter survey says.
Many on the committee are going to double down on telling
Fellow hunters to stay home because our RAC members
Are convinced that bucks give birth, and we've gained mule deer
Hunters since 1994.

What a future.






"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
My questions is whether we are managing for opportunity or for success? If we are managing for success, we need fewer tags given on the individual units. If we are managing for opportunity we need a way for hunters to be less successful so we can offer more tags. This usually equates to rough country units or limiting hunters weapon of choice to primitive weapons.
Archers have terrible success rates but spend more per year and spend more days in the field than any other group.
Either way you have to limit something. Either limit tag numbers and make hunters wait years to draw, or limit rifle tags and increase primitive weapon tags.
My 2 cents.
 
Why do Banks do background checks on employee's that will be handling peoples money? Why does the State require a background check on day care providers? OK a bit less drastic, DO you think Coke would hire anyone for Advertising who is currently employed with Pepsi for the same job ? Why in the world would someone from a special interest Group, be allowed to sit on a committee, that deals with the PUBLIC's Wildlife??? Again, I don't know 2Lumpy, and as I said in another post recently, I strongly disagree with nebo,but made the comment I thought he was a good guy. Lumpy also, from reading your posts in the past, I believe to be a good guy also. BUT why would this so called Mule Deer committee, Have ANYONE who has been bought and sold by SFW or any other legalized thieves?
Why does the argument always go to "what these groups have done with the money collected from stolen tags for the greater good of wildlife"? Here is a question I would loved to be considered. How much good could have been done for wildlife if 100% of the money from the stolen tags, would have been used for wildlife programs,instead of only a portion, and the rest going to line the pockets of the people steeling the tags in the first place?
The questions to be considered when it comes to hunting in Utah are endless. But I feel the answers will always be tainted if the considering group, or committee has anyone involved that represents any kind of group other than "the love of hunting" group.
Sportsmen in Utah, need to look deeper than just, who sits what committee, the politics within the state, and DWR should be addressed and considered also.
It sadly will always come down to money. When money is such a huge factor, Politics will always be involved. And with politics comes corruption. There are many ways for "Hunting" to be corrupted. From the smallest ways. to what I call the Thieving, Special interest groups. Some groups that always seem to avoid the radar are what I call the "bird watcher groups" they receive money from hunters for projects that benefit non hunting interests. like the creation of buildings and area's off limits to hunting ,but for those who wish to View wildlife.
when you look into the issues sportsmen in Utah are dealing with you will here over and over and over again, The the DWR does not have the funds for the , this or that, and on and on... It really becomes sickening, its a continual whine. This is their justification for allowing parasite groups like SFW to engage with them. Even tho they toss dollar after dollar at other special interest groups like the "bird watcher groups" and countless other special projects instead of to programs that benefit the Animals that created the revenue in the first place.
Here are some questions this so called' Mule Deer Committee" should be asking
1-How much money does the DWR spend to have the Draw's done in Nevada, and why, is the DWR to inept to conduct the Draw instate.
2-Is there a way to take the tags allotted to Special interest groups and auction them off in a way that the DWR retains the money, to use for the wildlife programs.
3-are there anyways to reduce point creep in the current limited entry area's buy making mandatory waiting periods longer ,or once in a lifetime, or subdividing units from premium and regular to once in a lifetime to 10 year.....
4-How can the DWR collect a bigger percentage from tags sold by either CMWU, Special interest thieves,
5-is there a lawmaker within the State that could be involved with making laws requiring the DWR to collect,use,maintain "specie specific funds" i.e. use Mule Deer money for Mule Deer.
If the DWR wants people like me to drink their kool aid about the "we have no money" whine. Then first show me that ALL the money collected by them, from Mule Deer, goes DIRECTLY to Mule Deer projects. SHOW me that NO special interest groups (thieves), kept any money that should have been used for wildlife, specific to the species the money was collected for.
I, like most people. Work for a living, I spend 12-14 hour a day Monday thru Friday, working. My Weekends are spent with Family. I live in rural San Pete county. I simply do not have the time to go to rac meetings and be allotted 5 minuets to express my views. while some like SFW will have numerous lobbyists each with their own 5 mins to combine and mix their kool aid. I have prioritized my family as #1. If ever Sportsmen who are sick and tired of their resources being Stolen and manipulated for the benefit of the hierarchy of a special interest groups, Combine and Demand a change for the benefit of Wildlife. Then it might be time for me to reprioritize and combine there wishes with my #1.
 
Stonefly-
You just put in words what the majority of sportsman feel and do prioritize.
Just as you shared your views here, you can send in the same great opinion to the RAC and DWR as well as legislators to try and make a difference.
Get the views of legislators before you vote them in as well.
Doing so enables you to get the attention of those with similar ideals that have the time and means to take the ball and run with it.
If more sportsman would do this then our voices will be heard instead of ignored.
Doing nothing endangers the future of our #1 not having the same ability to enjoy the outdoors as we have.

Majority views cannot be ignored if "all" try and get involved even if it is just for as long as it takes to write the great response you shared above and send it to as many decision makers as possible. Your votes and ideals will count but only if you let it be heard.
Best,
Jerry
 
One question that I have is why is it that SFW is always the name in question and not the other groups such as MDF, RMEF, FNAWS, TURKEY FEDERATION, SCI, and other groups that participate in these tags and do the same thing as SFW. They all receive tags that are auctioned off in their groups and they ALL keep 10% of the money for their efforts and work in moving the tag.
The DWR has said that they cannot run the tag auctions as efficiently and as cheap as these groups do. That money does come back to the species that the tag came from. I see a lot of whining here from people that have no idea how the system works and in reality they do not know what is going on. It is too bad that people do not take more interest in trying to fix things instead of just complaining.
There are lots of sportsmen involved in one group or another. The deer working group does have two SFW members if you count lumpy as on. so do the other groups. UWC also have people on the deer working group. SFW does not control what goes on in the group. Everyone has their say. Other groups are pushing their agenda and with the agenda's that are being pushed I would think that the working group will come up with a great plan for our deer. Everyone has their own desires but not all will get what they want.
 
"Wiley, For your information SFW is not apposing HB 37 nor are they for it. They are just neutral. SFW stands for Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife. Not Sportsmen only for big game. It is true that the money mostly comes from big game projects and most goes there. However there are pheasants to be planted, that were put in clear lake last year and reproduced very successfully. They were marked and those birds were seen with chicks in the spring. Fish are also being planted and moved with SFW money. Difference is you can not sell a big pheasant tag or a big fish tag like you can big game. So should SFW let all other outdoor activities go and just work on big game? Not all sportsmen are big game hunters. They are still sportsmen. They enjoy the great outdoors. Should SFW go against them and not help other sportsmen? I think not."- Birdman Feb. 22 2014"
to answer your first question 2lumpy said he is a member of SFW, that is the reason I used SFW, that and I believe SFW is one of the most parasitic of the organisations from reading about them.
Birdy, you seem to respond to allot of 2lumpy's posts, are you defending a friend with your response to my comment?
and Birdy , you claim in your Feb post that most of "their" money comes from big game,..only most.. where does the rest come from? And Birdy, you claim I am uninformed... I might just surprise you how informed I am. And one last thing, it's clear you are a SFW fan,(probably a member) But I DO NOT like to see Big game money used for your clearlake pheasants, or used for Fish, OR used to line your buddies pockets,Birdy.
 
Many good sportsman that thought they were making a difference left the SFW after finding out how corrupt it really is.
Others on the other hand took retainers to protect those behind the behind the back deals once they were pointed out.
 
Every time I hear that we need more hunters in hunts where the percent of success is lower thus saving deer. Almost alway this includes archers. I'm here to tell the only reason the success may be lower is because they don't count all of the wounded deer.

We had a process where more hunters could be on the mountain and it was called three-point or better, but there was those, in power, who put the "kabosh" to that system.

Those of you who want to hunt every year should not be allowed to put in for the premium hunt or at least decide what you want and those of you who want a large trophy should not be allowed to hunt every year. This paragraph is simplified for attention, but the American Greed shows that hunters want it all - applications for both the every year units and premium unit. Why not choose your deer unit(only one).

As for the number of deer a good start would be the predators demise. The bear population is expanding at an alarming rate, cougars are not controlled they way they should, and the good ol' coyote will be the last animal on earth.
 
Bird, to answer you question directly:
It's always SFW because they are THE ONLY
group to vote for reducing opportunity. Not MDF
RMEF, UBA or UWC. simple as that.

Cannonball, do bucks give birth??
Do we hunt units in unrestricted, once buck to doe
Ratio falls below a certain number??
Had any of this ever happened??

The above answer is no.

Now since you brought it up Cannonball,
Why should us northern boys allow you to hunt
Or apply for moose permits up here?? Why should the
North, where 80% of the states hunters live
Continue to financially support the south when you
Continually do every thing you can to restrict hunters.

Finally, Cannonball, why is the Wasatch Front
Extended hunt area one of the best units in the state??
Bowhunters have either sex hunting FOR MONTHS not days.
It has rifle and muzz hunts and it also has habitat challenges not
Many other units have, and yet still maintains population
And trophy quality.

I'll be waiting, take your time.



"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
Stonefly, Yes I do know lumpy. See him now and again. No I am not defending him. Just stating the way that things are. You say you are informed, will your statements are not showing that you are informed. I would guess from your statements you do not attend all the RAC Meetings and WLB meetings. I know you are probably working trying to make a living. I am not. I attend all the meetings so that I know what the division is doing and how all the system works. It is for my information so when I hear someone bad mouth the DWR I can really know what is going on.
SFW takes 10% of the money they get off the auction tags just like every other group. All groups are taking 10%. That is according to the audit that comes out every fall. SFW also has money donated to them from other people. The 10% is used by SFW for the betterment of hunting. If that means pheasants planted or fish moved or brought in from other states to put in our waters for the enjoyment of the sportsmen and sportswomen then so be it. All the money required to go back into big game goes to big game. The 10% retained can be used for what ever expenses. Most if not all of that money also goes back into big game. The donated money is sometimes earmarked by the donator to be used of other things. Planting pheasants, fishing etc. Your belief that SFW is corrupt is not felt by all. Many people think they are way above board and honest thus the donations. You can believe what you want.
Again how informed you are does not show in your posts. Your accusations you make only shows that you do not know what the division talks about and what they are trying to do.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-07-14 AT 10:37PM (MST)[p]Ok birdy inform me, Please show me a link or anywhere I can view this Audit, and see for myself the numbers you have regurgitated here on this post. You said 10% I would love to see proof of it. If it is as you say I will apologize on this forum. Where are my statements uninformed? Is my stating the belief that SFW or ( I certainly dont want to single them out as you have mentioned) any other group that lobby's for public property, receives it, and makes money (no matter the amount) are Legalised thieves?. Does the DWR not take money from big game and use it for projects like River/raptor habitat, buildings and maintenance for area's of Bird watching in northern utah. Why is Steeling 10% of anything OK in your eye's? Are you really naive enough to not believe in the you scratch my back .... corruption within the DWR. Why should Any group (you'll happily notice I didn't use your groups name) call itself NON PROFIT, Have lets say 13000 members, from lets say all fifty states and has chapters in ummm, lets say 7 States. And if this make believe group retains its founder as a "CONSULTANT" yet out of the spotlight.. Should this group be allowed ANY free tags from ANY public allotment,and make ANY kind of profit? Here is a hypothetical question for you my friend. Birdy, How in a hypothetical world would a group be able to funnel money to an individual that wants to remain out of the spotlight? Do you think it could be done ( hypothetically) if the group retained him as a "consultant" 1 more question, Are there any others inside ANY of these parasite organizations that stand to gain not just a sum from stolen tags, but from the legislation they lobby for? (Hypothetically) it could be land owner tags, and or trespass fee's, Limiting permit numbers to drive up the value of Tags held by members.. remember this is all hypothetical, but I would like your input birdy All this was not just to point fingers at individuals withing parasite organisations my original statements were to show how sickening and old the whine from the Fish and Game were when they cried saying "we need the parasites, we cant handle our jobs without them, we dont have the money blah blah blah and they give away money( DEER MONEY) hand over fist to programs that have nothing to do with Deer. Then you say well, we cant sell fish permits or pheasant permits for big money. I respond TO STINKIN BAD. Leave the DEER money for the DEER let bird watchers pay their own way and bird hunters can do the same. Why would this even be happening, it sounds like something OBAMA and his socialist cronies would come up with. We need to spread the wealth right? Take the biggest group and make it pay for all the little groups. How did this crap even come to pass? I'll be waiting for your info to the link I can view the 10% audit info, and Thank you in advance birdy.
 
Stony, Your statements and hypothetical statements make me laugh. You want to view the audit, look it up on the net. Are you capable of doing that? One hint, it is given at the wildlife board once a year. That is where all the money is accounted for from these groups. Its there, look it up.
Yes the DWR does use money for bird watching, reptiles, structure and etc. Did you know that they are required to do so by law? A percentage of the monies that they get is required to be used for these things. They are not just managing big game, they manage wildlife.
There is a cost to selling those tags that are given to these groups. They bid on those tags every three years for the most part but some of the smaller groups do it every year. They are required by law to give 90% back to the division. The DWR has someone at all these auctions to write down the selling price. Thus the DWR knows what the tags sell for. There is an audit done on all the groups as to the monies and it comes out every year at the wildlife board. If a group defaults in any way they loose the tags they would get. It has happened in the past. The 90% back to the division is required by law. Do these groups have lobbyists? All the big groups have a lobbyist. The RMEF, MDF, FNAWS, they all do. SFW does nothing that he other groups do not do. If the best lobbyist happens to be a founder of the group, so be it. All these groups pay their lobbyists. All groups want their ideas Don't know but I do work with some of the State Legislators on different things for making new laws that affect me. If you know the system, it makes it easier on what to do. SFW does nothing different with lobbyists than say MDF or RMEF. And the groups keep 10% of the monies from the tags to cover expense that they have. Nothing dishonest, But then without being there and seeing first hand a person would not know.
I am not here to argue with you stony, I am here to say what goes on. Now if you are unhappy that is fine with me. Makes no difference to me. I know what I know and I can go from there. Good luck in all your endeavors.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-08-14 AT 01:25AM (MST)[p]The SFW gets donations only from those that enjoy cutting inline at the expense of other sportsman.
They do not want to play by the same rules as the other 99% that do, so they back an organization that gives them the ability to let you sit home while they hunt.

Anyone that wants to see the corruption in SFW only needs to do a search here on MM to see actual proven facts about this.
SFW is like a pyramid scheme trying to lure well meaning sportsman into there ranks while they steal from them and all others as well.
A token pheasant here and there and helicoptering "does" off Antelope island are made huge deals of while the majority of income goes??????
Name any other (non-profit) organization that buys private ranches with (public)assets and allows only elite members to hunt on.
I guess now some may be better "Informed".

Here is proof they do not even listen to there own members------
http://www.codyenterprise.com/news/local/article_f97b12b6-209e-11e3-9bcc-0019bb2963f4.html
SFW even messes up in Alaska-
http://www.flyrodreel.com/blogs/tedwilliams/2010/march/corruption-conservation

http://www.hcn.org/blogs/goat/amid-scandal-alaskas-wildlife-conservation-director-quits

Nothing shady here-http://www.thewildlifenews.com/2013/03/19/did-don-peays-organization-essentially-buy-utah-division-of-wildlife/
 
http://www.sfw.net/data/SFW_UDWR_2011_Conservation_Permit_Audit.pdf
" The 90% back to the division is required by law.'- Birdman- june 7 2014 This really is beginning to look like something from the Obama Administration. Um I read 30% back to DWR and they withold the rest and keep it in an account.. For approved projects..? Along with allot of left over money from years past. I see this info is a bit old, but Its the newest that I can see as um transparent. and again I wonder how much goes back to the species that the original tags were for?
 
Quotation: "Now since you brought it up Cannonball,
Why should us northern boys allow you to hunt
Or apply for moose permits up here?? Why should the
North, where 80% of the states hunters live
Continue to financially support the south when you
Continually do every thing you can to restrict hunters.

Finally, Cannonball, why is the Wasatch Front
Extended hunt area one of the best units in the state??
Bowhunters have either sex hunting FOR MONTHS not days.
It has rifle and muzz hunts and it also has habitat challenges not
Many other units have, and yet still maintains population
And trophy quality."

My Friend, First quotation is ridiculous to start with and I wouldn't even respond.

The Second quotation: I lived in Northern Utah some years. I know the country. I've hunted Promontory, east of Ogden, East Canyon, the Wasatch Front, Diamond Fork, etc. On the Wasatch Front, I know there are several places you can hunt, and many you can't hunt. There are very few road and steep terrain. Any animal would fairly save. Only the young and restless hunt there. You could say its more like the some of the steep mountains of Colorado. In most places in Southern Utah there are roads every where and if the hunters aren't limited or restricted in some manner, the animals, especially deer(which are not as reclusive as elk, bear, mountain lions, even coyotes) will be annihilated. Most people of the "northern boys" don't understand and some even think that building the houses on the bench down here are the major problem with our deer decline. I'm here to tell you that is not the case. The problems with the deer herd is long and hopefully the Mule Deer Committee will cover it fully. It's as nearly screwed up as bad as the northern end of the state and hopefully can be turned around. The state is growing and this issue is only going to get worse.

One sensitive area, like it or not, are the archers who wound many more deer than a rifle. I'm on the mountain a lot and hear their stories. A good share of the time it is the weekend archers, who pull the bow the day before the hunt and practice up. Those are the ones that usually hunt the EASY terrain, shoot or wound the spikes or lttle two points. Those are ones who shoot a bow, or muzzleloader, and if it doesn't drop in its tracks, couldn't find their nose. I have hunted with a bow and yes I have a problem with anyone thinking they are a low percent success IF the wounded animals were to be counted.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-07-14 AT 11:47PM (MST)[p]HMMMM where did the 90% go in 2012???
http://wildlife.utah.gov/pdf/conservation_permit_revenue.pdf
If you add up the amount the special thievery tags sold for it comes to $2,797,880.00 for all the thieves combined, AND if you stay on the same DWR page you will see that all the Thieves combined gave the DWR 1.53 million......thats um.. NOT 90% back by law Birdy????? or.... am I just not informed enough to understand this math... Which is it Birdy???
 
Knack,
"SFW only gets donations from those that enjoy cutting inline at the expense of other sportsman". "Only".... Are you sure about that. Please support this comment with some facts! Can you honestly show that SFW ONLY gets donations from these terrible people? Are you positive about this? Please provide a list of all those that donate to SFW along with the tag they get to cut in line with.

Whine whine whine. Last I checked DeLoss hadn't received a single email. Lots easier to whine and complain on the interweb than to focus on solutions for helping Mule Deer. This was about the Mule Deer Committee...right? DeLoss was asking for input you'd like to give and be a part of the solution....right? I hope the average joe hunter does look at this thread and realizes who's actually trying to make a difference and help our deer herds and who's more interested in bashing groups and individuals. It's pretty plain to see. Like Gordy suggested, lets call a spade a spade.
 
Ahhh now the relative of Lumpy shows up to save the day.
Seems as usual your SFW breathren are outnumbered on the responses as usual.
You were just shown how your Birdy was wrong about the 10% and shown your members are crooked by even other members.
How is that property in Canada doing so far for SFW? You know the one they bought with "special interest" donations?

Not here to argue with the cult but to enlighten those that may be behind the curve on what your organization really is.
 
Knack,
You made a claim that "only" those cutting in line make donations. Can you back up your claim or were you just making a dishonest claim to try and sell your point?

I'm not saving any day just curious if you could back up your post and trying to get back on topic. You know Utah's mule deer. Then again that's not really your concern is it.
 
Cannonball, you are correct on the WFE
Access makes the difference.

Wounding, bow vs rifle?? If we're going with
Anecdotal data I've watched cow elk hunters
Empty their magazines a couple times with only
One flock shot animal on the ground. Either they
Can't hit their ass or there's Swiss cheese elk on the hill.







"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
Jerry, I took a minute and listened to the
WB. Meeting the other day. During the crow discussion
Byron Bateman got to the mic, and said he represented
ALL SPORTSMEN.

SFW does not and should not make a habit of
Speaking for me as a sportsman. Don't tell the
Wildlife Board that you speak for or represent me,
Don't tell the legislature you speak for me, you

I'll post the 2014 hunter survey as soon as I get it.




"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
2Lumpy < i have tried to E-mail you 3 times now and all i get is

This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification.

Delivery to the following recipients failed.

[email protected] Please PM me with another email or I can send you mine on a PM
 
wileywapati Quote:

"Wounding, bow vs rifle?? If we're going with
Anecdotal data I've watched cow elk hunters
Empty their magazines a couple times with only
One flock shot animal on the ground. Either they
Can't hit their ass or there's Swiss cheese elk on the hill."

You can smokescreen all you like, but deer are not elk The deer are a lot easier to take down, and you are not in a situation where a bunch of nervous hunters are flock shooting.

First, let me say again, I'm in the mountains a lot and like to go out when the archers are in camp. Their stories are they just plain wound a lot of deer. I have shot probably 40 buck in Utah during my life. I have only wounded four deer that I knew I had hit with a rifle. Now in my shame in admitting this, but with a bow I have wounded more deer that got away than I have been able to down. Am I the exception? I doubt it!! When I was hunting with a bow I could put three out of four arrows in a paper plate at 60 yards. I have talked to friends and just plain hunters who tell me the same thing. If you are one of those avid archers this may not be the case with you, but there are to many "get the bow out" and go hunting types. I really don't think you can win an argument on this subject.
 
theknack, The 10% is correct. 10% goes to the group that sells the tags. 30% goes to the DWR for what the want. 60% goes into a fund. That money is used for the future of the species that generated it. It is used in agreement with the DWR and the group. It is required to be used in a limited amount of time. It can not go back to the group for any reason. They are only allowed to keep the 10%. That is the law. So if you want to read more than that into it fine. It is audited on a yearly bases by he State. What are you referring to as special interest donations. Here is proof they do not listen to their members? Are they suppose to do every thing that a member wants? No group does that. News paper articles are not proof of anything. They are a writers thoughts that are used to sell news papers and make money. Also I do not consider what is on MM as facts. I think that people can believe what they want. I myself will research what some people say for my own personal understanding. I am not out to prove any group is wrong. I can name lots of groups that so what you say that SFW does. That is not my purpose to prove a group wrong. I attend the meetings with the DWR that are open to the public, and most are, because I have the time and the interest and want to know what goes on and how it works. So you take it for what it is worth. What I have posted on this is true. You can not prove it wrong. The money is all accounted for with the State of Utah. If you disagree and want to prove any group wrong contact the Utah congressmen and push it. Good luck.
 
Now that I have said my peace, I have no desire to argue with anyone or try to prove how good or bad a groups is. What I said I have said and I have no other things to say. Good luck to Lumpy with the deer committee. He has a strong desire to push mule deer recovery. There are lots of people on that committee and no one person or group controls. I have attended a meeting and watched how it works. Good luck to the committee and what they are doing. I am sure that they will work out an agreement with all on the committee to hopefully help the mule deer. Not all will agree with the outcome. Even within the group but they will reach an agreement as to what to do.
 
It's all perspective Cannonball. For every bowhunter
That admits to a loss, I can give you a rifle hunter
That shot across a canyon without following up.

You spread your myth I'll spread mine. Where does
That get us ?? Nowhere.



"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-08-14 AT 03:58PM (MST)[p]It is all sportsman's concern...That is what SFW does not get.
Muley73-Do you have the numbers to show us? Hey your supposed to be transparent to the public. Prove me wrong....Never gonna happen.

Birdy-You can tell your a lawyer. Even when your client is 100% proven guilty without a reasonable doubt you will defend him anyway even at the expense of the innocent.

Kind of ironic if you look at the link to the Alaska debacle and compare it to the hen house scenario going on in Utah. Hmmmmm
http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs...ares-north-american-hunting-model-“socialism”

http://www.adn.com/2012/03/03/2350508/private-hunting-rights-weighed.html

No further comments by me are needed on this post, we just into a non ending disagreement. Others can decide for themselves.
 
Knack,
No answer to what you claimed? I'll take that as just a blatant lie to prove your point or maybe just caught up in the moment and thought it sounded good. Either way doesn't do anything to help Utahs mule deer. Again that was the point of this discussion.
 
Knack, I respectfully disagree, there is
Plenty of reasons to comment on Lumpy's
Original post.

I filed a GRAMA request for this committee
And have received the data through the April
29th meeting. Basically Committee charter and
The survey. Once the survey results are in I'll
Post up the data and the following meeting minutes.

The survey will show what every survey shows.
75% of the people just want to hunt with family
And friends, the hunting public overwhelmingly
Supports the use of primitive weapons to increase
Opportunity and the current regulations are a complicated
Mess.

For years we've heard that deer hunting is mostly managed
By social views. Well, if we are going to ignore science
And manage this way, then by God the Committee better
Damn well do it. Blowing off the opinion of 75% of Utah's hunters
To add a new LE unit in Beaver or telling hunters to stay home
Till we get to a fictional buck to for ratio will be proposed. Once
It is I'll be happy to make sure we all know where this comes from.







"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-08-14 AT 03:15PM (MST)[p]>Jerry, I took a minute and
>listened to the
>WB. Meeting the other day. During
>the crow discussion
>Byron Bateman got to the mic,
>and said he represented
>ALL SPORTSMEN.
>
>SFW does not and should not
>make a habit of
>Speaking for me as a sportsman.
>Don't tell the
>Wildlife Board that you speak for
>or represent me,
>Don't tell the legislature you speak
>for me, you
>
>I'll post the 2014 hunter survey
>as soon as I get
>it.
>
>
>
>
>"The future is large scale auction
>tags.
>The majority of the tags should
>go up
>for auction anually. It MIGHT even
>be
>good to allow second sales of
>auction
>tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
>
>and then re-selling them to the
>public."
>TRISTATE 8/17/2012
"The Utah Division of Wildlife (DWR) has asked SFW to fill a seat on the Utah Statewide Mule Deer Planning Committee". The committee, which held its first meeting in late April, has the responsibility to evaluate Utah's ongoing mule deer management plans and explore strategies for improving Utah's mule deer populations. The committee will meet regularly through September 2014 when the committee's recommendations will be incorporated into the DWR's 5-year Mule Deer Management Plan (2015?2019).


Here are the increases in total "limited" tags from 1994-2011.
1994 2011
Bull Elk: 784- 4,094
Buck Deer: 1,925- 3,547
Pronghorn: 755- 802 Moose: 137- 191
Bison: 63- 100
Wild Sheep: 24- 86
Mtn Goat: 11- 140

Looks like the 75% you quote lost out continually on what they wanted.
 
Stonefly, very sorry for providing an incorrect e-mail address. Thank you for notifying me and thank you for attempting to communicate. I hope you will give it another try. My correct address is; [email protected]

Again, I apologize to everyone for any trouble the incorrect address my have created.

DC
 
Like you said, you spread your stories and I will spread mine. "Blowing off the opinion of 75% of Utah's hunters". I really don't believe that comes from the silent majority of hunters. You archers kill me, always wanting more. Leave the gun hunters home so we archers can have more of a slice of the pie.

I might mention this: Some years ago, I was on Parker Mountain and met a sheep herder. I knew this man. When he saw me packing a bow here was his statement: "I really liked you until I see that you hunt with a bow. I hate bow hunters. I see more deer running with arrows sticking out of them. They are going to ruin the hunt"
He then rode off on his horse.

It really hurt my feelings - You see he was my scoutmaster some years earlier.
 
Always interesting to see SFW try to justify their action by claiming "everyone else" is doing it (whatever is wrong). This excuse didn't work with my mother when I was young, and doesn't work for my kids either.
And in point of fact, it isn't true. (Yes, even Mom knew this argument was bogus), SFW keeps a minimum of 10% of every tag sales for admin costs, sometimes as much as 30%. RMEF, for example, always returns 100% of every dollar raises from tag auctions directly to the state. Period. "Everyone" does not line their pockets with auction tag proceeds. Some others do (MDF), and they are equally guilty, and WRONG. But they have been in bed with SFW for several years now, and it won't change as long as MIles is at the helm.
IF SFW really cared about the wildlife, they would start by returning every red cent they make on auctioning tags to the state. Sadly, this is not the case.

Back to the original topic:
Do not make more limited entry units. Focus on habitat improvements and proper management to allow the herds to prosper. There are enough premium tags to cater to those who want to buy their trophy.
Bill
 
Cannonball, the last time I asked the RAC / WB
for anything archery related goes back to when
SFW, specifically the Dixie and Beaver chapters
Proposed to end statewide archery. Then I asked
To just leave things be.

Conversely, I have NEVER asked for anything that
Would mean any other hunter not be allowed to hunt.
Rifle, muzz or bow.

Funny you mention the herder. I've actually been that
Herder, night before the rifle elk opener, just north of Joe Bush.
Cleaned up the carnage from a truckload of drunk
Rifle hunters.

So I guess that would mean all rifle hunters
Flock shoot, shoot across canyons without following up
and would rather
Run over livestock than spill their beer.



"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
Man, you just don't understand. I'm not going to even respond to such ridiculousness.

I guess the question at hand is to respond to Deloss or others on the Mule Deer Committee if a person feels they can improve the process or deer herds in Utah. Whether you like his affiliations or not, you may have a partial desirable solution for mule deer. Seems he's reaching out for ideas.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-09-14 AT 07:38AM (MST)[p]llamapacker, Just get the facts straight. You really have no idea what is going on. The hear say you are passing is not true. Do a little research and don't follow the blind.
 
Now YOU understand.


"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
Cannonball did the sheep herder find any lead it the deer carcasses he came across? Very silly story.
 
True story, but I got to admit those arrowed deer probably shorted him of some camp meat. Mutton would get tiring after a while.

If you archers were true to yourself you would have to admit you wound a lot of deer. The best thing that happened to the Southern Utah deer herd was when they took away the statewide archery hunt.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-09-14 AT 03:34PM (MST)[p]Cannonball said: "If you archers were true to yourself you would have to admit you wound a lot of deer. The best thing that happened to the Southern Utah deer herd was when they took away the statewide archery hunt."

I laughed out loud when I read this quote. If you ask me, the best thing that ever happened to Utah's deer herds was when the DWR outlawed native Sasquatchs from killing and eating mule deer except during the authorized hunting season. Thousands of deer were saved. Is this a fictional story contest?

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Bowtech Destroyer
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
 
Cannonball is certainly naive or has not spent much time listening and observing hunters.

My experience of witnessed events certainly have those I rifle hunt with wounding and losing more deer those I have bowhunted with. In fact I would like a dollar for every time I had to encourage or follow up on a deer that was missed by a rifle hunter when it had actually been hit.

The difference in the stories is simply this.

Most rifle hunters think only a missed deer walks away.

Where as most bowhunters know when they have hit a deer.

Don't try and label me as one of those dumb bowhunters, I haven't had an archery tag in years.
 
Congratulations Deloss,

I still owe you a lunch and hope have good exchange of ideas at that time.
 
I have spent a lot of hours in the hills, but I am not hallucinating yet. The one thing I do know, other than the hear-say I've heard from hunters, is I've wounded more deer with an arrow that got away, than I've downed. What I am afraid of, is that I am not the exception.

You can be as arrogunt as you want. I am only telling true stories.
 
Taken my share of animals and ain't lost
One yet.


"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
>I have spent a lot of
>hours in the hills, but
>I am not hallucinating yet.
> The one thing I
>do know, other than the
>hear-say I've heard from hunters,
>is I've wounded more deer
>with an arrow that got
>away, than I've downed.
>What I am afraid of,
>is that I am not
>the exception.
>
>You can be as arrogunt as
>you want. I am
>only telling true stories.

Might be time for you to stay home.
 
Believe me I don't hunt with a bow any longer and there are a lot of others, who don't practice all of the time, and should also hang it up . I just don't buy the idea of a lower success ratio for archers; therefore, we should not use an incentive towards them to help our deer herds. I would hate very much to see a State wide archery hunt again.

I love the idea of the smaller deer units. It has forced the DWR to manage better. Not sure I go for the bucks per 100 does as first priority. Should be a certain number of deer on a unit. I also think some of the counts were wrong(way to high) and the DWR should have a checks and balance on the counts. Just like some sort of a regular audit group in the field.

Enough said!!
 
Cannonball,

I have a similar experience. I concluded I'm not the only one with an archery wounding problem when I hunted the extended archery hunt above SLC. I stumbled into 3 different guys on a weekday afternoon all tracking different wounded deer.

Another time we were archery hunting on ranch that was not posted. (We were actually looking for a deer my friend had hit.) The landowner asked us to leave. He said he didn't mind rifle and muzz hunters, but he finds too many dead deer on his ranch during the archery hunt. Well, we left him another one to sniff out.

And no archery season would ever be complete without a post on MM about a guy who found his 4 point a week after it was killed. Seems to happen every year.

I don't mind archery hunters. Archery has its place. I know a number of archers who are extremely competent; however, I will push back when they start generating an image that they have less impact just because archery "success" rates are low.
 
you want to really do something , give back our tags. go to a kill one every other year, you buy a two year tag, but can only kill one deer in that two years, that's how you put hunters back on the mountain, with less harvest.(less harvest means more deer. try that for 5 years!!!!and to hell with the big money hunts.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-10-14 AT 09:11AM (MST)[p]cannonball-

I do not consider myself an archery hunter. Rather, I am just a hunter. I have taken big game animals with a rifle, a muzzleloader and a bow -- and I enjoy hunting with any weapon. Over the years, I have seen hunters wound animals with each of these weapons. I do not agree with the argument that archers wound tons of animals and therefore have a massive impact on the herds. All you have to do is look at the Wasatch extended unit. Thousands of hunters pile into this unit every year, especially in November. Despite the immense pressure, the Wasatch has decent deer numbers and cranks out some high quality bucks every year. Why? Because primitive weapons = lower success rates = more deer and older age class bucks. It is really that simple. If you crammed the same number of rifle hunters into the Wasatch each year with the same season structure it would be shot out in a couple of years.

Now, please don't interpret my comments as saying that we should shut down rifle hunting and turn the entire state into an extended archery unit. Rather, I just want to show you that your argument about archers taking an heavy toll on the deer herds is simply wrong.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Bowtech Destroyer
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
 
let's just take a minute here to look at this years draw. There were tags left over and most where for the archery season at least the ones that mattered. Opportunity lost for some and most in the Junior section. Are we trying so hard to get the junior hunters into hunting that we are providing opportunity for some and making none for others.
I am glad there is someone on the board that even cares what us hunters think. This is a great place to voice our opinions and hopefully make some difference in that someone is actually listening.
It is getting harder and harder every year to find a hunt that my son and I can go on let alone afford. I grew up in Utah and love to come back to hunt with the family. In the old days we all would go up to the mountains together, some would hunt others would drink, Ha but most would come for the experience of being together with the cousins and uncles. We are planning a hunt this year but because some of us drew a deer tag and others didn't we are combining the elk hunt with the deer hunt so that we can spend some quality time together. This is one area that most are not addressing and it is sad. This is where we all come from but have forgotten. it didn't matter what size deer you got, some got two points some got big ones and that is what made it fun.
I say bring back the family hunts in some way and combine them with the junior hunts so that the next generation can experience what we did as kids and trying to pass on.
That's my tow cents.
 
>Believe me I don't hunt with
>a bow any longer and
>there are a lot of
>others, who don't practice all
>of the time, and should
>also hang it up .
> I just don't buy
>the idea of a lower
>success ratio for archers; therefore,
>we should not use an
>incentive towards them to help
>our deer herds. I
>would hate very much to
>see a State wide archery
>hunt again.
>
>I love the idea of the
>smaller deer units. It
>has forced the DWR to
>manage better. Not sure
>I go for the bucks
>per 100 does as first
>priority. Should be a
>certain number of deer on
>a unit. I also
>think some of the counts
>were wrong(way to high) and
>the DWR should have a
>checks and balance on the
>counts. Just like some
>sort of a regular audit
>group in the field.
>
>Enough said!!

Enough said? So much for Lumpy's desire to unite the various weapon hunters under the umbrella of "our" DWR!
 
Tags for everyone are a thing of the past, too-many tags and too-few deer. Let the DWR manage the herds for health and let the tags follow! I am also torn on the whole juniors getting all of the tags, I don't see what is wrong with allowing them to tag-along until their turn to draw a tag. Face it, we are exploding in our human populations and more hunters do not mean more deer everyone.
 
It's obvious we're all passionate about mule deer. Some have expressed good ideas while others are content to ride on the "bash" train.

No doubt about it, we are a diverse bunch of guys and we're all looking for a different experience while deer hunting. It will be impossible to make everyone happy and I'm glad there are those brave souls who will serve on the committee. THANK YOU!

It should be obvious that the only constant is change. Change has, and will, continue whether we like it or not. There is simply too much demand on a shinking resource. Like they say in business, "change or die".

Good luck boys!
Zeke
 
how many on the committee hunt cwmus, how many own them' how many have friends that run them,ect ect, ect, iam not so sure they are looking out for us little guys.,its the so called committes that have got us where were at.,,,how is that for the bash train zeke?80% of these guys are there to help the money boys, nobody else,,just like the big game board. , if you think I am wrong fine ,but go back and see how they have voted.....
 
Hawkeye,

You cannot compare the Wasatch Front with other parts of the state. Years ago I hunted there and know what it is like. It is a confined area with rugged terrain and also I am not saying there are TONS of wounded animals on the archery hunt. I am saying that I believe there is way way higher wound "non-retrievable" rate on the archery hunt. One that makes the argument of higher numbers of hunters being able to hunt those primative hunts is just counter productive.

Read Smellybuck's post I think it says it all.

Over the years I have seen our deer hunt go completely to hell. Sorry thing about it is the old timers saw it coming and did their best to divert it, only to be ignored. Lumpy was one of those ignored ones.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-11-14 AT 08:34AM (MST)[p]Hawkeye,

I mean no ill or disrespect towards you whatsoever, but I have a different perspective. A good portion of the extended area also allows for rifle hunting. If big bucks and archery crowds are any indication of a sustainable model, why are there plenty of archers and big bucks in the portion of the unit that also allows rifles?

I miss rifle hunting Emigration Canyon, I understand why it needed to go archery only. I think there is a place for archery, but I noticed a lot of limping deer around Salt Lake when I lived there. Maybe they were hit by cars, but I can't help but think some of them were hit with arrows. I agree there are undetected losses in rifle because people will not walk 300 yards to look for blood, but I've seen too much in the field to believe the posts on mm that state archery has a negligible impact on a deer herd.
 
Smelly asks a good question. Why is the WFE
A success? Bows for months, not days, either sex,
Rifles, smokepoles.

All of this and still a great unit?? How?? It flies
Directly in the face of what Cannonball is telling
Us about what the old timers know.

Why?




"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
cannonball-

My comments were directed to the following statement that you made above: "If you archers were true to yourself you would have to admit you wound a lot of deer. The best thing that happened to the Southern Utah deer herd was when they took away the statewide archery hunt."

The WFE debunks this myth. Tons of pressure and tons of opportunity yet there are still good deer numbers and good bucks. Something tells me that there were other factors affecting the Southern Utah deer herd and those problems likely still exist today.

Do archers ever wound deer? Yes. Do rifle hunters ever wound deer? Yes. Do muzzle loader hunters wound deer? Yes. However, your comments targeting archers seem to be exaggerated.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Bowtech Destroyer
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
 
Have you ever considered that the deer are doing reasonable okay in the Extended hunt areas because there are far fewer predators ? Go ask Alpine City or Bountiful who see the deer numbers as a problem. I would bet that predator numbers are very very low near the urban areas.
 
Nebo, I'd love to get you out for an evening hunt
This fall. I can tell you the stretch I hunt most frequently
Is full of coyotes. I can also tell you of multiple lion
Kills from little cottonwood south.

In this bald fat dudes opinion it has to do with access.
One particular drainage produces a couple of monsters
Every year. But you ain't getting there in an hour and much
Of the jaunt is steep.

I would love to see a few of the struggling units
Go under access restrictions rather than just have
Permits cut and LE status enacted. We've got 30 units,
Take the worst and close all but main access roads
And see what happens.



"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-11-14 AT 01:20PM (MST)[p]I see cougar and coyote sign all over the Wasatch. I have multiple photos of predators, including some from two years ago with three separate lions on my trail camera at one time. So I don't think the WF flourishes due to a lack of predators.

I agree with wiley. I think it is a function of limited access and primitive weapons both of which lead to limited harvest.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Bowtech Destroyer
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
 
These kitties were hanging out in one of my favorite honey holes.

Cougars3.jpg


Cougars2.jpg


Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Bowtech Destroyer
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
 
Those kitties sure don't look malnourished.


"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
Not that this adds much to this current thread...I believe that the WF is a great hunt because of the limited motorized vehicle access. The entire WF is steep with very limited vehicle access. I believe that is a major contributor to this unit being so good. JMO

On to this thread, All I can do is hope that all involved in the Mule Deer Committee do whets right for the Deer herd and can stop the current downward spiral.
 
The deer herds are no-where near what they used to be on the Wasatch. I hunt Little Cottonwood Canyon because that is where my family always used to hunt. I see equal number of coyotes to deer some days. To put it into perspective, My dad told me that without binoculars, when he was tagging along with his Dad at 15, he counted 28 bucks on opening morning before Grandpa took a 4-point with open sites. Now, I average anywhere between 0 and 11 bucks per full day with optics. The deer herds have fallen a long ways. Since 2007, Dad and I have bow hunted every year but two of them. We have together killed 3 deer and have not wounded one. between my network of friends, I have only heard of 1 deer being wounded and unretrieveable.
 
Utah400Elk wrote:
"I believe that the WF is a great hunt because of the limited motorized vehicle access. The entire WF is steep with very limited vehicle access. I believe that is a major contributor to this unit being so good."

Bingo to the above Hawkeye

Of course gun and blackpowder hunters wound deer, but as far as I'm concern from my many hours in the mountains and talking to archers they(archers) are a major contributor of wounded animals. I think you archers are looking thru rose colored glass if you think any different. The southern region has the same disease the whole state has, to many predators, to many hunters, to many roads, to sophisticated of weapons. Lets face it, hunters today are killing machines. I also believe elk also are a large factor of the decline of deer. I've hatched this subject enough.
 
Mathematically, white, right handed, rifle hunters
Wound more game than any other type
Of hunter.

Keep doubling down on your bullchit cannonball.



"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
As an alternate.


"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
FWIW, it ain't like wounding rates of bowhunters hasn't been thoroughly considered and examined. Almost every state that has a bowhunt has looked into it, including Utah.

Back east where they hunt whitetails with multiple tags, the highest wounding rates have been reported. The highest I've found was 57% - roughly one wounded animal for each tagged animal.

Here in the west on mule deer hunts, the rates are substantially lower. Utah reports 3-8% on general season hunts and rates as high as 18% on limited entry.

So why is this (imaginary) issue still a hot topic? Simple - the "unfair" -ness doctrine. Bowhunters draw easier, get first turn at the bucks, a longer season and extended seasons. Some gun hunters envy those perks...does seems unfair...from a purely personal point of view.

But if hunting is about conservation rather than emotional satisfaction, there are solid reasons behind less restrictive regulations for bowhunters and they're pretty hard to argue against. It ain't about people's feelings, but about using the best tool for the job. The wounding myth offers a smidgin of righteousness to those who feel otherwise.
 
I can't say who wounds more deer, but the actual statewide harvest rate when I checked it a few years ago was less than 10% difference between archery and rifle (28% rifle, 19% archery if I recall correctly).

It was significantly less difference than I thought it might be.
 
>I can't say who wounds more
>deer, but the actual statewide
>harvest rate when I checked
>it a few years ago
>was less than 10% difference
>between archery and rifle (28%
>rifle, 19% archery if I
>recall correctly).
>
>It was significantly less difference than
>I thought it might be.
>

The 2012 stats were 36.5% for Any Weapon, 32% for Muzzy and 19.1% for Archery, but the gap isn't always that wide. However, there are several reasons for the gap fluctuations, including weather, days afield, youth hunts and season lengths and the numbers don't readily show that info.

As for the wounding, any studies that have been done have shown virtually no difference between archers and riflemen.
 
Tonight's agenda is simple, but it's gonna get complicated I suspect.

5:00 Dinner (provided by DWR)

5:30 Review agenda and minutes from last meeting-approve agenda and minutes.

5:40 Review survey results-better understand what the hunting public wants.

8:15 Assignments-Assign tasks (data collection) to DWR, others if needed.

8:20 Plan next meeting(s)-determine timing and purpose of next meeting.

8:30 Adjourn.

Fortunately (or unfortunately depending on how you look at it), I won't be there because our 94 day old premie granddaughter is finally being released from the hospital (she's now over 6 lbs. and nursing on her own) and she will stay in Cedar City for a few days to get used to the difference in the altitude from the hospital in St George before going to her home in Magna and I need to be here to help make all of that happen (car seat, stroller, portable sleeper, condenser, oxygen tank and tubes, small freezer with about 5 gallons of mother's milk, etc. plus enough of our junk to stay in Magna for a month or so).

But, I/UWC have a very capable substitute who will represent us at tonight's meeting and I'll get a thorough report from him and Kris and pass on what I can. I'm sure it will be interesting!
 
Lee-

Thank you for the update. I wish I could make it to the meeting tonight as a silent observer. I would like to hear how things are progressing. Thanks for your dedication and service to sportsmen.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Bowtech Destroyer
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
 

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