WHERE ARE ALL THE DEER???

Let's just go with Lumpys management plan.

Cut say 50% of what's left of tags which would leave us around 30k total deer tags and also ditch all conservation group dollars because it's not benefitting us anyway.

How much revenue will a mere 30k deer tags bring?
It's not even enough to cover wages.

Ya....that ought to get us where we want to be.

PS.....I'm too embarrassed to even "tell a friend" about this proposal ?
 
hossblur said:
Here's what I KNOW.


Mormons killed hundreds of thousands of deer. The Utah "big family" meant lots and lots of new houses. Did anyone consult DWR before that 3-12th kid? No. Does the expanding cities and towns consult DWR? No. But they get blamed for managing that.
Click to expand...

So it is the damn Mormons! Western dutchies! I knew it! Lol
 
@Tikka , @Lumpy

Here's a real question.

What will decimate more deer.

The total number of bucks killed via hunter this fall, or any fall, or that in land port they are sticking in Juab county?

Think the DWR got a say in that?

Did either of you, talk to a single Utah congressman?
 
Well!

Several Years Ago I Used The Word 'KILL' Alot!

Somebody BAWLED!

I Wasn't PC!

So I Started Using HARVEST!

I Think Most People Forgot What Normal Winters Use To Be In This State!

These PANZY-ASS Deer Of Today Are Not A Tough Breed!

hossblur said:
First, we don't "harvest", we ain't farmers.

Second, I've never measured a deer/elk. Is 170 a magical number?

Third, since I started with them in 78', about 1-2 mature deer a year. We are at 1 this year. Same kid did the same last year.

Did I see more deer overall last year, yeah.

Winter kill is an actual thing.
Click to expand...
 
slamdunk said:
You're right lumpy, let's go ahead and just scratch out conservation efforts, I mean according to you they aren't working at all ?‍♂️
View attachment 123776
Makes a guy wonder where we'd be without side funded projects under the 10 year drought we've suffered across the west.

Where did I say I'm totally satisfied with current buck numbers?

It's been said 10k times already but 1 more time can't hurt....."cutting tags doesn't increase deer herds!".

We've cut 150k tags already Lumpy, tell us how well that's working?

Asking for a friend....
Click to expand...
slamdunk said:
You're right lumpy, let's go ahead and just scratch out conservation efforts, I mean according to you they aren't working at all ?‍♂️
View attachment 123776
Makes a guy wonder where we'd be without side funded projects under the 10 year drought we've suffered across the west.

Where did I say I'm totally satisfied with current buck numbers?

It's been said 10k times already but 1 more time can't hurt....."cutting tags doesn't increase deer herds!".

We've cut 150k tags already Lumpy, tell us how well that's working?

Asking for a friend....
Click to expand...
You said, “depredation issues should be the focus over reducing buck tag numbers.”


To which I said: “You’re clearly happy with the number of bucks we have, or you’d be satisfied if we killed more.” I should have ended with a question mark……. because you either like the numbers now or but you apparently don’t want any less tag. The only other option would be to issue more tags.

Or maybe there’s a forth option and I really an a useful moron.

Also, I assumed the conversation was regarding mule deer in Utah, not other species. And….. I do not believe the tag reductions we’ve had since 1993 have made any difference. Why? Because every tag reduction they’ve made as been after the fact, and the deer they hoped to save were already dead. Course I’m a moron when I believe that too. So you tell me, one time, where this State has reduced tags prior to loosing another percentage of the herd?

Incompetence, indifference, and anger is all if see. Habitat restoration hasn’t grown the mule deer either, so the money I’ve donated hasn’t done a damn thing, as far as I’m concerned.
 
Last edited:
2lumpy said:
You said, “depredation issues should be the focus over reducing buck tag numbers.”

Slam?
Yes, meaning depredation hunts are killing thousands of does (each dead doe means 3 dead deer, assuming most does have twins).
Weigh that against the harvest rates of bucks on all three hunts combined and see which weighs more, dead bucks or dead does.

Lumpy?
To which I said: “You’re clearly happy with the number of bucks we have, or you’d be satisfied if we killed more.” I should have ended with a question mark……. because you either like the numbers now or but you apparently don’t want any less tag. The only other option would be to issue more tags.

Or maybe there’s a forth option and I really an a useful moron.

Also, I assumed the conversation was regarding mule deer in Utah, not other species. And….. I do not believe the tag reductions we’ve had since 1993 have made any difference. Why? Because every tag reduction they’ve made as been after the fact, and the deer they hoped to save were already dead. Course I’m a moron when I believe that too. So you tell me, one time, where this State has reduced tags prior to loosing another percentage of the herd?

Incompetence, indifference, and anger is all if see. Habitat restoration hasn’t grown the mule deer either, so the money I’ve donated hasn’t done a damn thing, as far as I’m concerned.

Slam?
You'd like to convince me the ongoing projects of hundreds of miles of fencing and crossings across the state hasn’t helped reduce collisions?
Thank you for your gracious $35, you HAVE helped.......even though it obviously hurts.
I'd be happy to Venmo you back so you'll sleep better.
Click to expand...
 
Nope…….. keep your $35.

The fact that you believe you can’t focus on the buck population while you’re focusing on doe and fawn populations tells me all I need to know.

All the best.
 
2lumpy said:
Nope…….. keep your $35.

The fact that you believe you can’t focus on the buck population while you’re focusing on doe and fawn populations tells me all I need to know.

All the best.
Click to expand...

I guess since giving money for habitat projects is a waste, you'll council the family to NOT buy booth space at the expo since you don't agree with where and what the money goes for, right?
 
2lumpy said:
Nope…….. keep your $35.

The fact that you believe you can’t focus on the buck population while you’re focusing on doe and fawn populations tells me all I need to know.

All the best.
Click to expand...
With a statewide average success rate near 30% give or take, buck survival seems pretty decent I'd say.
Plenty of bucks left to breed what does we still have.

I don't believe I've caught your stance on technology restrictions, but you'll support a further reduction in buck tags till there's a statewide complete closure of tag sales.
That'll be weird continuing to watch the herds decline due to all the "bigger issues" ?‍♂️

Fair enough.....all the best to you as well.
 
Last edited:
slamdunk said:
With a statewide average success rate near 30% give or take, 70% survival seems like a pretty decent number of bucks to breed what does we still have.

I don't believe I've caught your stance on technology restrictions, but you'll support a further reduction in buck tags till there's a statewide complete closure of tag sales.
That'll be weird continuing to watch the herds decline due to all the "bigger issues" ?‍♂️

Fair enough.....all the best to you as well.
Click to expand...
If I took a stance on tech. It would be simple and it may sound familiar……… all three weapons hunts need to have relatively equal amounts of tech restrictions, beginning with range finders.

In the real world, I no longer care one way or the other……… not my fight anymore.

All the best.
 
2lumpy said:
If I took a stance on tech. It would be simple and it may sound familiar……… all three weapons hunts need to have relatively equal amounts of tech restrictions, beginning with range finders.

In the real world, I no longer care one way or the other……… not my fight anymore.

All the best.
Click to expand...
You do realize the third "weapon" isn't a hunt, right?

It's not called "rifle hunt", it's called "Any Legal Weapon" or "ALW" meaning you can use anything from an old long bow, flintlock muzzleloader or even a Cheytac two mile rifle system if you'd like.

The first two hunts are restricted by the nature of the mechanics and are meant to have lower success rates and higher opportunities to hunt every year.

Figure out how you're going to change the ALW hunts and you'll be in for a Pulitzer if you can pull it off.
 
I agree that cutting tags is not growing the deer herd, but I also know that adding a bunch more tags right now might completely wipe out the males. We have already wiped out the mature bucks.
 
slamdunk said:
You do realize the third "weapon" isn't a hunt, right?

It's not called "rifle hunt", it's called "Any Legal Weapon" or "ALW" meaning you can use anything from an old long bow, flintlock muzzleloader or even a Cheytac two mile rifle system if you'd like.

The first two hunts are restricted by the nature of the mechanics and are meant to have lower success rates and higher opportunities to hunt every year.

Figure out how you're going to change the ALW hunts and you'll be in for a Pulitzer if you can pull it off.
Click to expand...
I already did. Outlaw range finders. Are you gonna fill out the paper work?
 
cantkillathing said:
So for those of you that want restrictions on guns, muzzy, and archery, why? If bucks don’t produce deer why do we need the restrictions then?
Click to expand...

What does this have anything to do with the herds? These are hunter management ideas.

Maybe this is where the disconnect is. People want to improve deer herds by continuing to manage hunters, and not the deer.

Maybe we ought to put that same old “hunter management plan” we’ve had for 50 years away and focus on managing deer instead. Maybe, just maybe…then we’ll see positive results.

I promise you T, managing hunters won’t do crap to help our deer!
 
Vanilla said:
What does this have anything to do with the herds? These are hunter management ideas.

Maybe this is where the disconnect is. People want to improve deer herds by continuing to manage hunters, and not the deer.

Maybe we ought to put that same old “hunter management plan” we’ve had for 50 years away and focus on managing deer instead. Maybe, just maybe…then we’ll see positive results.

I promise you T, managing hunters won’t do crap to help our deer!
Click to expand...
There are plenty on here that are against tag cuts because they say it doesn't help but under the same breath want restrictions because it will help, but they both are the same thing. that is what I am pointing out. They also say bucks dont help the heard, but under the same breath are saying lets do restrictions so that bucks survive.
 
I don’t believe I’ve ever seen anyone say on here the technology restrictions will help the deer herds.

I’ve seen lots say the opposite, that they won’t help the herds so why do them. I do not remember seeing a single person advocate for technology restrictions on this forum to build herd health. That’s a bit of a straw man.
 
There are plenty on her that have said it and there are plenty behind this idea, and its going to happen during the RAC this month, and there several major sportsman groups in favor of it.
 
cantkillathing said:
There are plenty on her that have said it
Click to expand...

Can you point me to one? I’ve followed all those discussions. I haven’t seen it. At least I don’t remember it. I’ve seen Slam say the exact opposite probably a dozen times at least! I know I’ve said it has nothing to do with herd health many times as well.

I don’t think MrShane has claimed it will help deer herd health. He has been open about it taking people out of the muzzy pool so he can muzzy hunt every year. He hasn’t hid his motives at all.

I couldn’t care less what any of these groups say. I think I’ve made my position on the alphabet soup “conservation” organizations very clear. You know how I feel about them.

I actually attended an early technology committee meeting. (They all thought they’d seen a ghost when an “outsider” walked in.) I was told I couldn’t speak because I wasn’t a member of the committee, then listened to a person not a member of the committee guide the entire discussion! (A certain head of an alphabet soup org…) But even at this earliest meeting, the topic never was about herd health. They talked about fair chase and ethics (which I didn’t love) but nothing about herd health.

Again, we need to quit trying to save the deer by managing hunters. Maybe one day that will set in. Hopefully before it’s too late.
 
I see it as one in the same, I guess i dont see the difference, those that are wanting restrictions are wanting restrictions for what purpose? Because you have to tie in the Mule deer plan to all of this. The way the plan works is if you are managing a unit 18 bucks per 100 doe, if by some reason we move up to 20 bucks per 100 doe, then we increase tags to bring it back down because we dont want the excess bucks. So the plan is designed to make sure we keep the buck numbers down, and I only see the restrictions that they are tryiing to impose is to allow bucks to survive, but then more tags will just be given to bring the bucks back down, your buck population is not going to get better ever. No matter what they want those deer dead.
 
I’ll wait for you to show me where people were making the argument this is for deer herd health…

?

I’ve never posted about buck to doe ratios and am not getting into a circular argument here. I’ll leave the goal posts right where they were originally.
 
Buck/doe ratio depends on how you look at it. The higher Buck/doe ratios more opportunities for hunters and older class of deer. Lower Buck/doe ratio less opportunity more fawns being born smaller bucks. I think it should be somewhere in the middle. You can look this up on the web.
 
Having lower buck-to-doe ratios is important because it results in the birth of more fawns and contributes to the long-term health and strength of the herds.
1698144712033.png

Utah.gov
PDF

Management Buck – Orientation | Utah Division of Wildlife Resources​



The lower buck to doe ratio objective was designed to provide for increased hunting opportunity whereas the higher objective was intended to provide …
1698144712043.png

Bureau of Land Management...
PDF

UTAH MULE DEER STATEWIDE MANAGEMENT PLAN​

 
Tell me more about this Cheytac two-mile rifle system.

After saving for 7 years, I finally have enough general points for a Utah deer hunt, and I want to go hunting with 17 of my friends and we will all wear our flat brims while spotting for deer and hopefully kill a doe or a fork horn at a couple thousand yards and post the video on YouTube.

Technology and a Cheytac two-mile rifle system obviously has no effect on the herds. Just 1 deer out of the herd.
 
cantkillathing said:
There are plenty on here that are against tag cuts because they say it doesn't help but under the same breath want restrictions because it will help, but they both are the same thing. that is what I am pointing out. They also say bucks dont help the heard, but under the same breath are saying lets do restrictions so that bucks survive.
Click to expand...

I'm one of them but you don't grasp the point.

I want EVERY restriction possible, and to be exhausted before we cut a single tag.

If that means long bows, hawkens, and straight wall rifles, then great. But no more tag cuts. No more destroying HUNTING in the pursuit of trophies. You DO NOT help hunting by ridding it of hunters.
 
2lumpy said:
I already did. Outlaw range finders. Are you gonna fill out the paper work?
Click to expand...
Outlaw rangefinders so that 70k hunters can cry about shot placement and wounded animals at even ethical ranges.....ok.

You stated "equal changes across the board" on all three weapons, so now you're willing to take rangefinders from archers where it's needed most?
Or.....let archers keep them for ethical reasons, take away from everyone else and start "equality" complaints all over again......
 
Mallardsx2 said:
Tell me more about this Cheytac two-mile rifle system.

After saving for 7 years, I finally have enough general points for a Utah deer hunt, and I want to go hunting with 17 of my friends and we will all wear our flat brims while spotting for deer and hopefully kill a doe or a fork horn at a couple thousand yards and post the video on YouTube.

Technology and a Cheytac two-mile rifle system obviously has no effect on the herds. Just 1 deer out of the herd.
Click to expand...
The Cheytac comment was made in jest, saying it is an option (extreme) and completely legal on the ALW hunts, just as a long bow, flintlock or 50BMG.
 
Well!

I've Got My F'N HAWKENS Shined Up!

I Might Even Use It This Year!

Take Equally From All 3 Weapon Types!

I'm All For Helping The Deer herd!

After taking The SmokePole Scopes This Only Raises The Success Rate On The Rifle/ALW Hunts,Mark My F'N Word On It!

This Move Saves NO Bucks!

Oh I'm Wrong Again!

It Saves Some Bucks For The Very Next/ALW Season/Hunts!

(((Yup,I Sound Like A F'N Broken Record!)))
 
cantkillathing said:
Reread several of those that have posted on here MRShane was one of them off hand that think it will work
Click to expand...
Vanilla’s comprehension of my input is correct.
I believe with some serious muzzleloader restrictions (insert Idahos muzzy regulations here) that enough folks would bail from muzzy season that I would end up being able to draw my area every year instead of every 2-3 years.
Will more mature bucks survive muzzy season to be cut down during ALW season without any tech modifications to the ALW regs?
Absolutely they will.
I truly believe wanting to save more mature bucks for ALW hunters is what started this whole thing.
Does that save bucks for me?
No.
But at least I will be out in the woods hunting during my preferred season in my preferred area each year.
Would Utah adopting Idahos regs accomplish this for me?
I don’t know for sure, but with the amount of muzzy kill pics/stories coming out of Idaho over the years I have to believe it could work out.
Maybe I am wrong.
Only one way to find out.
 
So?

What You're Hoping For Is More PUMPKINS In The PUMPKIN Patch?

Or At Least More PUMPKINS Trying For The ALW Tags?

MrShane said:
Vanilla’s comprehension of my input is correct.
I believe with some serious muzzleloader restrictions (insert Idahos muzzy regulations here) that enough folks would bail from muzzy season that I would end up being able to draw my area every year instead of every 2-3 years.
Will more mature bucks survive muzzy season to be cut down during ALW season without any tech modifications to the ALW regs?
Absolutely they will.
I truly believe wanting to save more mature bucks for ALW hunters is what started this whole thing.
Does that save bucks for me?
No.
But at least I will be out in the woods hunting during my preferred season in my preferred area each year.
Would Utah adopting Idahos regs accomplish this for me?
I don’t know for sure, but with the amount of muzzy kill pics/stories coming out of Idaho over the years I have to believe it could work out.
Maybe I am wrong.
Only one way to find out.
Click to expand...
 
elkassassin said:
So?

What You're Hoping For Is More PUMPKINS In The PUMPKIN Patch?

Or At Least More PUMPKINS Trying For The ALW Tags?
Click to expand...


We should put limits on hunters to grow big deer like the Henries and Oak Creeks. If we had more big buck units the deep pockets and guides could shoot out more of them.

After all, it's much more important that those guys hunt every year while we all sit home to "build the herds"
 
hossblur said:
We should put limits on hunters to grow big deer like the Henries and Oak Creeks. If we had more big buck units the deep pockets and guides could shoot out more of them.

After all, it's much more important that those guys hunt every year while we all sit home to "build the herds"
Click to expand...
EXACTLY! This is why I feel we need to limit the # of guides on public lands. And throughout the state of Utah. TOO MANY GUIDES!!!
 
elkassassin said:
So?

What You're Hoping For Is More PUMPKINS In The PUMPKIN Patch?

Or At Least More PUMPKINS Trying For The ALW Tags?
Click to expand...
No more, but NO less.
No tag cuts.
But, anyone wanting to use a superior weapon should have to wait the longest for a chance at a dwindling resource.
If someone chooses to use an inferior weapon they should be allowed to use it a little more often.
Saving our herd is going to be on us, nobody else cares.
Self-policing is part of the solution.
In the early 1900’s we could have eliminated Ducks and Geese off the face of the Earth.
Some far sighted individuals got together and what do we have in Utah now concerning a specie that only a hundred years ago almost ceased to exist?
We have unlimited over the counter tags, and a 107 day season thanks to self policing.
And we are the second driest State in the Union.
Miracles can happen.
 
We all know that the deer numbers in our units are not correct. There is not the total deer numbers they say in the state and there are certainly not more bucks in Utah mountains than ever before. I think we can all agree on this. So with the deer numbers in such an awful state and continuing to trend down, what needs to be done right now to turn the trend?
 
southernutahhunter said:
We all know that the deer numbers in our units are not correct. There is not the total deer numbers they say in the state and there are certainly not more bucks in Utah mountains than ever before. I think we can all agree on this. So with the deer numbers in such an awful state and continuing to trend down, what needs to be done right now to turn the trend?
Click to expand...

Biology doesn't work on "right now".

An average winter, with a wet summer for a couple years would work.
 
I listened to biologist in the southern rac say that the deer herd was in great shape in the southern part of the state. They did really well through the winter. So from listening to them it is not Mother Nature!!!
 
the end result was the deer have done very well and because of this tag increases were recommended in all southern units. Should I trust that logic if there is 4 seasons? Did they forget your 4 season logic?
 
southernutahhunter said:
the end result was the deer have done very well and because of this tag increases were recommended in all southern units. Should I trust that logic if there is 4 seasons? Did they forget your 4 season logic?
Click to expand...

I don't live in s Utah, but, I'm assuming since they came off drought map they had ok moisture.?

What would you do, today, to improve herds. Specifically
 
start with a real accurate count of deer in each unit. One of the reasons we went to more units was to pinpoint or narrow problems. If deer herds get too low you may have to close some units until the biologists can pinpoint and fix the problem.
 
southernutahhunter said:
start with a real accurate count of deer in each unit. One of the reasons we went to more units was to pinpoint or narrow problems. If deer herds get too low you may have to close some units until the biologists can pinpoint and fix the problem.
Click to expand...


Today. You wanted a quick fix, what is it?
 
southernutahhunter said:
start with a real accurate count of deer in each unit. One of the reasons we went to more units was to pinpoint or narrow problems. If deer herds get too low you may have to close some units until the biologists can pinpoint and fix the problem.
Click to expand...

Is that why we did that? Because I very vividly remember the DWR saying they could already do that under the 5 regions (and already had been doing it in certain areas of the state) when they openly opposed moving to Option 2.

This may be another time that gets me in trouble when I say the DWR didn’t do Option 2, the Wildlife Board did. But guess what? It’s true!

I think everything you were told about Option 2 was a farce for altering motives from certain groups.
 
I don’t know if that was the main reason they went to smaller units but I sure think they could count deer without adding zeros. And to your point of getting something done today, nothing is going to get things done today but I guess we can hope the 4 seasons cooperate and all will be well
 
It’s funny, I had a discussion a year ago about the mess the GSL is in and our severe drought, completely independent of hunting. I told my friend the only thing we are ever going to be able to do to fix these issues is pray for more snow. He mocked me and told me that was not a plan. Quite frankly, I agreed it was no plan, but more snow was the ONLY thing that was going to help restore the GSL. Everything else can help, but it won’t fix it.

Weather is probably the same for mule deer. We absolutely can do some things that can help. I firmly believe that. But without favorable weather patterns, we can’t “fix” the issue. That isn’t a plan, I realize that. But it’s our reality.

Mule deer are weak. They need help. Help we are not equipped to give. Pray for a mild, yet wet winter and cooler temps during the summer if you want more mule deer in the desert. And then we can help along the way in minor ways.
 
southernutahhunter said:
I don’t know if that was the main reason they went to smaller units but I sure think they could count deer without adding zeros. And to your point of getting something done today, nothing is going to get things done today but I guess we can hope the 4 seasons cooperate and all will be well
Click to expand...

I hope you got my point. We get these same "do something now" posts all the time. But when pressed, no one has a now.

Cut tags, leave a buck, then winter comes and kills it. What was the gain?

Close a unit? Again, winter.

Favorable trends in climate and mortality are the only real herd builder, and there's little we can do on that one
 
hossblur said:
I hope you got my point. We get these same "do something now" posts all the time. But when pressed, no one has a now.

Cut tags, leave a buck, then winter comes and kills it. What was the gain?

Close a unit? Again, winter.


I'll also add, follow the money.

When the corporate hunters start sitting home rather than hunt, then we should follow. But we should never lead that trend.
Click to expand...
 
I get your points and agree that climate can be a factor. I also know that your views do not always match dwr which leaves many hunters frustrated and lacking trust. Let me take you back to 2019. Drought conditions had still been a factor several years before this time and also the years after. In October 2019 dwr sends out a press release that states there are 370k deer currently in Utah and that is 100k more than 2011. They went on to say there are more bucks on the current landscape than any other time. Not even a month later in November rac meetings, hunters called bs and dwr began saying they know there has been a large decrease in Utah deer herds. So as you might guess I have a hard time buying into the numbers they spit out. Maybe it is time to just be honest and call an ace an ace. Fact. Deer numbers are at an all time low in Utah. You can fool the tourist, but you’re not fooling the hunters of Utah. As you said climate has 4 seasons and it will take many many many good seasons to turn this trend because dwr has not been transparent with deer numbers for many years. That guys is a problem.
 
When I Said The Modern Day Mule Deer Herd Was Weak You Didn't Like It!

It SINKIN In A Little?

Finally?


Vanilla said:
It’s funny, I had a discussion a year ago about the mess the GSL is in and our severe drought, completely independent of hunting. I told my friend the only thing we are ever going to be able to do to fix these issues is pray for more snow. He mocked me and told me that was not a plan. Quite frankly, I agreed it was no plan, but more snow was the ONLY thing that was going to help restore the GSL. Everything else can help, but it won’t fix it.

Weather is probably the same for mule deer. We absolutely can do some things that can help. I firmly believe that. But without favorable weather patterns, we can’t “fix” the issue. That isn’t a plan, I realize that. But it’s our reality.

Mule deer are weak. They need help. Help we are not equipped to give. Pray for a mild, yet wet winter and cooler temps during the summer if you want more mule deer in the desert. And then we can help along the way in minor ways.
Click to expand...
 
elkassassin said:
When I Said The Modern Day Mule Deer Herd Was Weak You Didn't Like It!

It SINKIN In A Little?

Finally?
Click to expand...

Your memory is so good that you make up things that never happened!

You and can’t spent too much time together this fall, you’re both making crap up!

One day we should get together down in his neck of the woods.
 
You Need To Quit F'N Around!

I Was Down In His Neck Of The Woods 2 Different Times This Fall!

Him & His FIL Drove Up To Our Camp One Afternoon & We Went Looking For Elk!

Good Times!

Your Memory Is So Good You Don't Remember SQUAT!

Vanilla said:
Your memory is so good that you make up things that never happened!

You and can’t spent too much time together this fall, you’re both making crap up!

One day we should get together down in his neck of the woods.
Click to expand...
 
Tys, I will through this out there, you keep saying that cutting tags doesn't help the deer herd, I agree it isn't the best, but also lets look at when the DWR implemented the buck to doe ratio and I am pretty darn sure it was around the same time they did the first round cut of deer tags back in 1992. Couldn't we also say that the 18/100 isn't the answer as well?
I guided a biologist from texas for several years, after he retired, he became basically 300,000 acre ranch operater of private hunting, and is still running the wildlife. He laughed at the way Utah manages mule deer, he told me they run there model more of 1:1 and have better success in fawns. He explained how on a second year doe will usually produce a single fawn, but all the 3 year old doe and older were always or 95% or more having twins. I am not saying this is what we should do, but the question is are they running it off of biology or off of hunter satisfaction.

This is off of Texas mule deer plan:
A 1:3 buck:doe ratio is desirable for mule deer when fawn production and survival is relatively low. In areas where natural mortality is high and deer densities are low, a higher number of does may be needed to maintain or increase the population.
 
I don’t think buck:doe ratios matter much, to be honest. So long as there are enough bucks to breed the does, that is what we need. There are disagreements what that number is, but I’m not sure anyone is claiming Utah’s buck numbers are insufficient to breed the does.

We can’t compare hundreds of millions of acres of public multi-use land to even hundreds of thousands of acres of high fence private land managed for trophy hunting like your client maintains now. That simply isn’t realistic statewide. We do have a few of those LE units managed essentially to that level though, right?
 
A doe can only get so "pregnant", having a 3:1 ratio doesn't improve her odds in the least bit.

Cutting buck tags only does two things.
#1- Adds more bucks to the landscape but does little to nothing in benefitting actual herd growth.
#2- loss of revenue and hunter opportunity.

The buck to Doe ratios are managed to produce the "sufficient" results to satisfy both factors.
 
slamdunk said:
A doe can only get so "pregnant", having a 3:1 ratio doesn't improve her odds in the least bit.

Cutting buck tags only does two things.
#1- Adds more bucks to the landscape but does little to nothing in benefitting actual herd growth.
#2- loss of revenue and hunter opportunity.

The buck to Doe ratios are managed to produce the "sufficient" results to satisfy both factors.
Click to expand...

Every pregnant woman ever used that line?
 
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Yup. These are elk. They are also off of the best run CWMU, Deseret, that even winter feed.

A place where they limit tags, control their "trophy", etc, etc, etc.

Yet, here is all this work, and every day more and more of these big bulls, died. I heard more than 50, died. All that saving for tomorrow, laying in the snow, dead.

The deer, weren't lucky enough to make it to henefer.
 
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For those from Texas, or others who don't get out much.

This isn't the high Uintas, the deep back country.

The first is a gravel road through sage brush

MAY 7. That kid is was 5'5 for reference

The second is the Meeks Cabin road

a week later.

Now. Cut all the tags you want. Artificially inseminate every doe in the state. Kill every fanged animal, and poison the rest. Shut down hunting.

And that white chit still piled 5 feet deep in May in the low country, takes all the MM biologist and Deer experts plans, and freezes and starves them to death.

Mother nature is a BEETCH. There's little difference in the "DWR do something" crowd, and the AOC "stop climate change" crowd. They both believe in a fantasy that they can control nature.

"Man makes plans, God laughs"
 
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For those who are construction workers but believe they are deer management experts, why aren't %100 of your deer dead?

You had snow and apparently you believe that is deer poison, so how did any deer survive 5 feet of it. How have they survived it for the past several millennia? Sounds like no deer should be found north of about Tucson.
 
Any Chance We Could Have A Few Bucks In This State Live Past 3-1/2 Years Old?

Na!

That Shitt Ain't A Happening!

If Them MOTL Bucks Have Got Nubs We've Got People Lickin Their Chops!

BUCK TO DOE MANAGEMENT = THE VERY WORST TYPE OF MANAGEMENT EVER DREAMPT UP!
 
hossblur said:
View attachment 123947View attachment 123948

For those from Texas, or others who don't get out much.

This isn't the high Uintas, the deep back country.

The first is a gravel road through sage brush

MAY 7. That kid is was 5'5 for reference

The second is the Meeks Cabin road

a week later.

Now. Cut all the tags you want. Artificially inseminate every doe in the state. Kill every fanged animal, and poison the rest. Shut down hunting.

And that white chit still piled 5 feet deep in May in the low country, takes all the MM biologist and Deer experts plans, and freezes and starves them to death.

Mother nature is a BEETCH. There's little difference in the "DWR do something" crowd, and the AOC "stop climate change" crowd. They both believe in a fantasy that they can control nature.

"Man makes plans, God laughs"
Click to expand...
To deny or ignore the negative impact of human expansion is a stretch even for a zealot. And to manage populations in response to environmental conditions and events seems logical.

So you pray for rain while someone else lies in front of the bulldozer. And you’re a big enough old boy you could probably block 2 lanes……tsk tsk.
 
hossblur said:
View attachment 123940View attachment 123942View attachment 123943

Yup. These are elk. They are also off of the best run CWMU, Deseret, that even winter feed.

A place where they limit tags, control their "trophy", etc, etc, etc.

Yet, here is all this work, and every day more and more of these big bulls, died. I heard more than 50, died. All that saving for tomorrow, laying in the snow, dead.

The deer, weren't lucky enough to make it to henefer. The deer meditation but they didn't survive the excessive cows killed
hossblur said:
View attachment 123940View attachment 123942View attachment 123943

Yup. These are elk. They are also off of the best run CWMU, Deseret, that even winter feed.

A place where they limit tags, control their "trophy", etc, etc, etc.

Yet, here is all this work, and every day more and more of these big bulls, died. I heard more than 50, died. All that saving for tomorrow, laying in the snow, dead.

The deer, weren't lucky enough to make it to henefer.
Click to expand...
The deer made it henefer but they died in every ditch above the freeway. As told in the past we didn't kill enough cow elk now they all died?
Click to expand...
 
slamdunk said:
Nope, you just fail to accept the #1 factor in mule deer
Click to expand...
Good thing farmers and ranchers didn't buy into that closed minded thinking. You wouldn't even be alive if they had.

The reality is we have domain over these animals and we are part of mother nature. Now quit making excuses and find solutions.
 
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Human kind would fail to exist without ranchers!

Now I’m happy I saw a herd of sheep illegally out on the mountain Monday. They are keeping me alive! Bless their hearts.
 
Tristate said:
Good thing farmers and ranchers didn't buy into that closed minded thinking. You wouldn't even be alive if they had.

The reality is we have domain over these animals and we are part of mother nature. Now quit making excuses and find solutions.
Click to expand...
Again cuz youre clueless, they didn't.

There was guys, both volunteers and DWR harassing them off the hay, fields every night.

And we were on the "good end" of the mtn. The animals east of it in Wyoming they picked up with front end loaders and dump trucks. Yes I know, the Wyoming G&F is stupid and greedy too,?

I guess we could just follow Texas lead. Without winters their muleys are down double digits percentage as well.
 
hossblur said:
Again cuz youre clueless, they didn't.

There was guys, both volunteers and DWR harassing them off the hay, fields every night.

And we were on the "good end" of the mtn. The animals east of it in Wyoming they picked up with front end loaders and dump trucks. Yes I know, the Wyoming G&F is stupid and greedy too,?

I guess we could just follow Texas lead. Without winters their muleys are down double digits percentage as well.
Click to expand...
Does anyone one know what this guy is even saying anymore?

We aren't talking about house remodeling. You stick to hammers and nails. I'll stick to wildlife.
 
Vanilla said:
I don’t believe I’ve ever seen anyone say on here the technology restrictions will help the deer herds.

I’ve seen lots say the opposite, that they won’t help the herds so why do them. I do not remember seeing a single person advocate for technology restrictions on this forum to build herd health. That’s a bit of a straw man.
Click to expand...
I can guarantee that if the technology was restricted to “spears only” there would be an increase in hunting opportunity and more deer on the landscape, until the landscape reached full carrying capacity.
 
AZGuy said:
I can guarantee that if the technology was restricted to “spears only” there would be an increase in hunting opportunity and more deer on the landscape, until the landscape reached full carrying capacity.
Click to expand...
Actually, there wouldnt be more "deer". Maybe more bucks, but the herd would still be the same. The bucks will chase off does and fawns when it comes down to survival of food in the winter range. So the does would be worse off.
 
Tristate said:
Good thing farmers and ranchers didn't buy into that closed minded thinking. You wouldn't even be alive if they had.

The reality is we have domain over these animals and we are part of mother nature. Now quit making excuses and find solutions.
Click to expand...
The fact that you even compare "ranching" with wildlife reality says enough ?
 
slamdunk said:
The fact that you even compare "ranching" with wildlife reality says enough ?
Click to expand...
Exactly!

I'm trying to bring you to the reality of where you are. This isn't 1908. This isn't a wilderness anymore. No matter how much you or I wish it.

It's gone brother. Now we have to decide how we move forward and the deer will suffer or thrive depending on our real management decisions.
 
Tristate said:
Does anyone one know what this guy is even saying anymore?

We aren't talking about house remodeling. You stick to hammers and nails. I'll stick to wildlife.
Click to expand...

I realize knowledge and English aren't your strong points.

You should keep talking g to dead animals, they are impressed with your knowledge
 
slamdunk said:
The fact that you even compare "ranching" with wildlife reality says enough ?
Click to expand...

Bingo!

And we’d all be dead, but for those ranchers.

hossblur said:
You should keep talking g to dead animals, they are impressed with your knowledge
Click to expand...

And also made up lawyers that don't exist at fake dinners that didn't happen. They are also impressed with his knowledge!
 
Tristate said:
Exactly!

I'm trying to bring you to the reality of where you are. This isn't 1908. This isn't a wilderness anymore. No matter how much you or I wish it.

It's gone brother. Now we have to decide how we move forward and the deer will suffer or thrive depending on our real management decisions.
Click to expand...
I don't know where you hunt, but I hunt BLM and National Forest lands, both of which are completely wild and totally 100% rely on mother nature to water them.
There aren't cultivated lands with pivots keeping them watered.
 
slamdunk said:
I don't know where you hunt, but I hunt BLM and National Forest lands, both of which are completely wild and totally 100% rely on mother nature to water them.
There aren't cultivated lands with pivots keeping them watered.
Click to expand...

So you'd not know about heated ground blinds, ladder rack trucks, or corn cannons?
 
slamdunk said:
I don't know where you hunt, but I hunt BLM and National Forest lands, both of which are completely wild and totally 100% rely on mother nature to water them.
There aren't cultivated lands with pivots keeping them watered.
Click to expand...
You think that pumpkin patch every year is "completely wild"???? ?

You think fire suppression is "completely wild"????

Your living in denial.
 
Tristate said:
You think that pumpkin patch every year is "completely wild"???? ?

You think fire suppression is "completely wild"????

Your living in denial.
Click to expand...
Ok, I'll give you controlled burns and suppression, but we were talking about natural (mother nature) giving water in the form of snow and rain to nourish habitat at all levels.
Are you going to make a comment about cloud seeding or chemtrails now? ?
 
@Tristate
Your comment really got me thinking.
You are correct, it's not 1908 anymore and a lot of things "unnatural" have changed since then.
Logging, forestry cleanups, chaining, planting and creating millions of acres of new habitat, etc, etc.

Would you agree or disagree that our "wildlands" are more healthy today than 1908?
 

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