90/10 not going away...

[jm77]

Would the reduced allocations would affect the number of nonresident "general" elk tags? Sorry if this has already been discussed, but I haven't read all 694 posts on this thread.

There would be more NR general tags.

 

[LivingTheDream]

The 7250 number would remain. 90/5/5 would only pertain to LQ tags.

Thank you, I got it. Doing more Math than I wanted to on a Sunday morning.

 

[Cahunter805]

Would the reduced allocations would affect the number of nonresident "general" elk tags? Sorry if this has already been discussed, but I haven't read all 694 posts on this thread.

It would actually increase the number of general tags drawn by NR since less LQ tags would be issued to NR.

 

[newguy]

One thing I don't think the outfitters thought about is all the contracts they are going to have to do ahead of time. As one who books hunts, guys ask alot of questions, call several times, think it over etc. As demand increases it'll just be like New Mexico an outfitter may have to do 100 contracts just to get a couple tags. That's alot of investment for little reward.

They will like it at first but it becomes a big chore especially guys with other seasonal jobs.

Can't turn it over to a booking agent either as no money changes hands up front because there's no guarantee a tag will ever be drawn.

FYI, in New Mexico the outfitters generally charge $25-$100 for the initial contract, which they keep even if the tag is not drawn, so they are getting money for the initial time spent. Not sure how it would work here though.

Mark

 

[highfastflyer]

So basically it would benefit wealthy NR hunters and not All NR hunters. ?
I see nothing wrong with anyone hiring an outfitter for a hunt but feel they shouldn’t be given a handout just because they choose to do so.
Apply like the rest of us. Draw you tag and hire whoever you want.

Wealthy is a very subjective term. My thinking if I were a NR is far better odds of drawing, higher success rate, good horses, good food, safety, security etc. etc. and it all adds up to find an Outfitter to pair up with. Would you think about doing a OIL Bighorn Sheep hunt in Wyoming unguided in an area you can only hunt 10% of the land as the rest is Wilderness or would you just pony up and pay to play. Most of these guys going on these guided hunts aren’t what I consider super wealthy, they are mostly middle class workers who realize the benefit of spending $6K on a guided hunt and having a lifetime memory and a fair chance at a 300 + bull vs. spending $1500 and shooting a rag horn bull or eating tag soup. With fewer license available without an Outfitter it will benefit most hunters if you can afford it to pair up.

 

[30Hart]

FYI, in New Mexico the outfitters generally charge $25-$100 for the initial contract, which they keep even if the tag is not drawn, so they are getting money for the initial time spent. Not sure how it would work here though.

Mark

Good to know but I apply in New Mexico in the outfitter pool and have never paid a fee.

 

[newguy]

Good to know but I apply in New Mexico in the outfitter pool and have never paid a fee.

Interesting, I will have to look a little harder before I get into that draw again.

Thanks,

Mark

 

[highfastflyer]

If 90/10 happens outfitters loose customers because 10% of tags go directly to res. With 90/5/5 outfitters are guaranteed 5% of the tags. You can bet Wyo res get screwed out of 1/2 of their tags with 90/5/5 vs 90/10.

It's pretty much Wyo res battling outfitters/landowners....who will win?

Believe me.....Wyo res were warned about the WYOGA! Wyo res are not only battling nonres but also outfitter/landowners! If I were a Wyo res I would let things settle as they are or it could get a lot worse!

Jims,

You clearly aren’t thinking this thing through. Outfitters are going to gain big time on this and if you think they didn’t think it through you‘re fooling yourself. In your situation you even could possibly benefit a great deal.

The way you could benefit is go get your Outfitter buddy to pair up with you on your favorite antelope hunt area you regularly hunt where there’s only a few private ranches and a few authorized and licensed Outfitters for that area, If there are only 2 Outfitters operating in that area then odds are much greater for you to draw, even higher if you can get a partner NR to point share with you. Hell, you might even be able to hunt every year in your favorite little jaunt as long as you and the Outfitter agree on the terms. This might be a huge windfall for you and you’re too busy complaining and whining about it when you should be thanking your lucky stars……….

 

[LivingTheDream]

Wealthy is a very subjective term. My thinking if I were a NR is far better odds of drawing, higher success rate, good horses, good food, safety, security etc. etc. and it all adds up to find an Outfitter to pair up with. Would you think about doing a OIL Bighorn Sheep hunt in Wyoming unguided in an area you can only hunt 10% of the land as the rest is Wilderness or would you just pony up and pay to play. Most of these guys going on these guided hunts aren’t what I consider super wealthy, they are mostly middle class workers who realize the benefit of spending $6K on a guided hunt and having a lifetime memory and a fair chance at a 300 + bull vs. spending $1500 and shooting a rag horn bull or eating tag soup. With fewer license available without an Outfitter it will benefit most hunters if you can afford it to pair up.

I agree 100% on the benefits of using an outfitter. There is a reason they can charge 1000s of dollars and it is because of what you mentioned. I will undoubtly need to use one if I draw a sheep tag. I am fortunate enough to be able to financially be able to afford it, but a wise man once told me if I wanted to go on good hunts, get a good job.

This is my stupid and petty issue, and it is my stupid and petty issue, the WYOGA sent emails and asked everyone and their brother to send letters and emails saying we need to kill 90/10. As soon as they got in a position to make recommendations they immediately recommended 90/10. Doesn't make me really want to throw my money and support behind them.

I agree with residents saying they want/deserve more opportunities, I dont like the rules changing, but I dont have a leg to stand on other than license/pp revenue which I am sure can be fixed in about 10 minutes. If you want to hunt Wyoming and the west as a whole as a NR, you pay for the privilege and take the opportunities that are presented. Just the way it is. If you don't like it, go hunt Canada, Mexico, Africa, Asia, Europe, etc. Hunt Turkeys, Rabbits or Coyotes. There is no shortage of stuff or places to hunt.

My biggest issue with this whole debate (maybe argument, maybe whining) is that money and effort could be used trying to improve animals numbers. When I hear lawsuits, I just shake my head as it is wasted time, effort and money.

In 5 years, NR will still be hunting Wyoming, Outfitters will still be guiding hunts, and Residents will still hate seeing out of state plates. The percentages might change but not much else.

 

[highfastflyer]

In 5 years, NR will still be hunting Wyoming, Outfitters will still be guiding hunts, and Residents will still hate seeing out of state plates. The percentages might change but not much else.

No, I don’t believe that at all and can honestly say Thanks for contributing to Wyoming Wildlife. We fully understand the necessity of having NR hunters come in every fall and manage our game herds as we just cannot harvest that many Cow/calf elk, Whitetail deer and Pronghorns. We do have quite a few new transplant residents who haven’t quite adopted the friendly Wyoming way. The most underrated animal in all of Wyoming and the best eating are Cow elk. Take advantage of that valuable resource and they are a blast to hunt them. Happy Hunting……

 

[BuzzH]

It is obvious that a lot of shifty and weird stuff has gone on in this process behind closed doors with task force members. In fact, I'm curious if it is possible that legal actions could be taken with 90/10 or 90/5/5? Everyone knows what is going on with the corner crossing battle? I think it would be great if nonres connected and contributed to a fund and started something similar with the 90/10 and 90/5/5 battle. Stop this nonsense in it's tracks!

1) Nonres have invested years of applying and buying pref points for deer, elk, and antelope with the expectations of using those points some year to draw tags. Wyo residents have paid $0.00 over all these same years into the elk, deer, and antelope pref pt program. Suddenly 1/2 of these tags are taken away from nonres and offered to residents that haven't paid a penny into this program? With 90/10 it will take 2x longer for nonres to draw tags?

2) What is sad about all of this nonsense is that nonres support 77% of license revenue to the WG&F and have had 0 task force members. Seems mighty shady and backwards to me!

Every nonres stands to loose 1/2 of their allotment of high demand limited tags with both 90/10 or 90/5/5. Doe/cow and general tags are irrelevant since they will be available with or without 90/10. The important thing to remember is this significantly impacts EVERY nonres. As buzz mentioned it's not a done deal. I really believe nonres have a great chance of squishing this nonsense.

Read it and weep Sebastian...I'll bold the important part.

Pay attention and try to catch a clue...if you can.

Good luck on the lawsuit...

Text of S. 339 (109th): Reaffirmation of State Regulation of Resident and Nonresident Hunting and Fishing Act of … (Reported by Senate Committee version) - GovTrack.us

Text of S. 339 (109th): Reaffirmation of State Regulation of … as of Apr 21, 2005 (Reported by Senate Committee version). S. 339 (109th): Reaffirmation of State Regulation of Resident and Nonresident Hunting and Fishing Act of 2005

www.govtrack.us

Calendar No. 85


109th CONGRESS


1st Session


S. 339
To reaffirm the authority of States to regulate certain hunting and fishing activities.



IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES

February 9, 2005​

Mr. REID (for himself, Mr. BAUCUS, Mr. STEVENS, Mr. NELSON of Nebraska, Mr. ENSIGN, Mr. ENZI, Mr. CRAPO, Mr. HATCH, Mr. CONRAD, Mr. SALAZAR, Mr. CRAIG, Mr. BINGAMAN, Mr. THOMAS, and Mr. KYL) introduced the following bill; which was read twice and referred to the Committee on the Judiciary

April 21, 2005​

Reported by Mr. SPECTER, without amendment

---

A BILL
To reaffirm the authority of States to regulate certain hunting and fishing activities.

• Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.​

• This Act may be cited as the `Reaffirmation of State Regulation of Resident and Nonresident Hunting and Fishing Act of 2005'.

SEC. 2. DECLARATION OF POLICY AND CONSTRUCTION OF CONGRESSIONAL SILENCE.​

• (a) In General- It is the policy of Congress that it is in the public interest for each State to continue to regulate the taking for any purpose of fish and wildlife within its boundaries, including by means of laws or regulations that differentiate between residents and nonresidents of such State with respect to the availability of licenses or permits for taking of particular species of fish or wildlife, the kind and numbers of fish and wildlife that may be taken, or the fees charged in connection with issuance of licenses or permits for hunting or fishing.
  (b) Construction of Congressional Silence- Sisilence on the part of Congress shall not be construed to impose any barrier under clause 3 of Section 8 of Article I of the Constitution (commonly referred to as the `commerce clause') to the regulation of hunting or fishing by a State or Indian tribe.

SEC. 3. LIMITATIONS.​

• Nothing in this Act shall be construed--
  • (1) to limit the applicability or effect of any Federal law related to the protection or management of fish or wildlife or to the regulation of commerce;
    (2) to limit the authority of the United States to prohibit hunting or fishing on any portion of the lands owned by the United States; or
    (3) to abrogate, abridge, affect, modify, supersede or alter any treaty-reserved right or other right of any Indian tribe as recognized by any other means, including, but not limited to, agreements with the United States, Executive Orders, statutes, and judicial decrees, and by Federal law.

SEC. 4. STATE DEFINED.​

• For purposes of this Act, the term `State' includes the several States, the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, Guam, the Virgin Islands, American Samoa, and the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands.

Calendar No. 85



109th CONGRESS


1st Session


S. 339


A BILL
To reaffirm the authority of States to regulate certain hunting and fishing activities.

 

[lostinOregon]

In the beginning I thought there might a bit of a quid pro quo for the outfitters if they supported 90/10 and that outfitter or landowner tags may come from this. I was told "wrong" by someone on MM. Bring on the outfitter/landowner tags.

Rich

 

[jims]

I guess I misunderstood the percentages incorrectly. The wording hides the true numbers. Still giving res 10% of the tags and giving 5% to outfitters and 5% to nonres public hunters? I was thinking 85% res, 5% outfitters, and 10% nonres? That is in line with what has been discussed all along!

Suddenly the task force is going to slice 3/4 of the current high demand limited tags from public nonres?

I thought the Task Forces objective was to bring nonres tag quotas consistent with other Western states? This new scenario would suddenly drop nonres quotas to 1/2 the public tags offered in just about every Western state! Only 5% of tags to public nonres? What a joke!

The sh$t is going to hit the fan at the next couple of Task Force meetings! I certainly hope they still offer public comment. This ought to be entertaining. You better watch your backs res I'm certain the outfitters/landowner members will shake things up for you! It’s sure evident what the task force has been up to from the first meeting! Get ready DIY nonres hunters our work has just begun!

3/4 fewer tags to public nonres would means it would take 3x times longer for nonres public hunters to draw the same tag. Talk about cutting nonres hunter opportunity off at the pass! I doubt there are 2 or 3 tags in most of the premier elk and deer units? My guess is that units with only a few tags won't even offer nonres public hunters 1 tag?

I really think the outfitters just shot themselves in the foot with this last minute change.

 

[mulecreek]

I am totally against outfitter sponsored tags, but that opposition grows less and less with each post by jims.

NR were warned about WYOGA!!

I'm right there with you on this.

 

[highfastflyer]

@jims

You still don’t get what happens when TF members receive your comments. Exactly what power and control do NR have in Wyoming State policy and politics? You also don’t realize what a huge boom this could create with the outfitters but most importantly you can’t quite grapple with how it could help you. Go

get your Outfitter buddy to pair up with you on your favorite antelope hunt area you regularly hunt where there’s only a few private ranches and a few authorized and licensed Outfitters for that area, If there are only 2 Outfitters operating in that area then odds are much greater for you to draw, even higher if you can get a partner NR to point share with you. Hell, you might even be able to hunt every year in your favorite little jaunt as long as you and the Outfitter agree on the terms.

 

[WapitiBob]

You do realize that this allocation change would have little to no effect on reduced price licenses? Most likely, it would also have little to no effect on type 4 & 5 tags for elk.

In fact, in all likelihood, those tags would be more available to nonresidents.

stop it

 

[BuzzH]

In the beginning I thought there might a bit of a quid pro quo for the outfitters if they supported 90/10 and that outfitter or landowner tags may come from this. I was told "wrong" by someone on MM. Bring on the outfitter/landowner tags.

Rich

Long way from proposal to settled law/regulation.

I'm surprised you would have a problem with it, aren't you a client quite often?

 

[Cahunter805]

Wealthy is a very subjective term. My thinking if I were a NR is far better odds of drawing, higher success rate, good horses, good food, safety, security etc. etc. and it all adds up to find an Outfitter to pair up with. Would you think about doing a OIL Bighorn Sheep hunt in Wyoming unguided in an area you can only hunt 10% of the land as the rest is Wilderness or would you just pony up and pay to play. Most of these guys going on these guided hunts aren’t what I consider super wealthy, they are mostly middle class workers who realize the benefit of spending $6K on a guided hunt and having a lifetime memory and a fair chance at a 300 + bull vs. spending $1500 and shooting a rag horn bull or eating tag soup. With fewer license available without an Outfitter it will benefit most hunters if you can afford it to pair up.

Far better odds I can see but for $6K I don’t think many NR will see that as a plus.
I wouldn’t think of doing a OIL sheep hunt in an area with 10% of public available without an outfitter but also wouldn’t apply for this tag unless I had already made up my mind to use an outfitter for the hunt. If I didn’t want to use an outfitter I’d pick a unit that’s better suited to diy.

 

[highfastflyer]

Far better odds I can see but for $6K I don’t think many NR will see that as a plus.
I wouldn’t think of doing a OIL sheep hunt in an area with 10% of public available without an outfitter but also wouldn’t apply for this tag unless I had already made up my mind to use an outfitter for the hunt. If I didn’t want to use an outfitter I’d pick a unit that’s better suited to diy.

If you are an elk hunter I think there will be even more DIY opportunity than ever before in General License areas. Historically about 30% of NR elk hunters went fully guided. That will likely increase to about 50% on Limited Quota hunts, and likely stay about 30% in Gen areas. In many of those Pronghorn hunts which BTW are pretty good value with some of them only 2K will become more popular and well utilized as guided hunts if that’s your style. If not still lots of opportunity with Cow/Calf, whitetail deer and antelope hunting. Good luck on your draws and Happy Hunting……

 

[Savage110]

Wealthy is a very subjective term. My thinking if I were a NR is far better odds of drawing, higher success rate, good horses, good food, safety, security etc. etc. and it all adds up to find an Outfitter to pair up with. Would you think about doing a OIL Bighorn Sheep hunt in Wyoming unguided in an area you can only hunt 10% of the land as the rest is Wilderness or would you just pony up and pay to play. Most of these guys going on these guided hunts aren’t what I consider super wealthy, they are mostly middle class workers who realize the benefit of spending $6K on a guided hunt and having a lifetime memory and a fair chance at a 300 + bull vs. spending $1500 and shooting a rag horn bull or eating tag soup. With fewer license available without an Outfitter it will benefit most hunters if you can afford it to pair up.

Speaking for myself, I prefer not to use an outfitter. I know that it will cost me opportunity for finding the highest quality animals as I do not have as much time to be in the mountains as the outfitters and their spotters. But it is worth the satisfaction of “hunting” myself, as opposed to just being led to an animal the spotters have been watching eat, sleep, and **** for months. Don’t get me wrong, would be nice to have someone wipe my ass for me, but it’s way more satisfying to do it myself.

 

[Sierra]

The latest idea is to compromise with 80/10/10. Since residents have access to the guided pool, residents will get their 90%.

 

[Bookhead]

The latest idea is to compromise with 80/10/10. Since residents have access to the guided pool, residents will get their 90%.

Made up

 

[link]

fake news?

 

[junior]

Dang, that would be to good to be true.

 

[BuzzH]

The latest idea is to compromise with 80/10/10. Since residents have access to the guided pool, residents will get their 90%.

Bigger joke than you...and that's saying something.

 

[Teepee]

The latest idea is to compromise with 80/10/10. Since residents have access to the guided pool, residents will get their 90%.

You're wading in the shallow end of that guide pool.

 

[Sierra]

You really think they will go with 90/5/5? No chance in hell. The outfitters just threw that out there knowing that there will be push back on the 5% NR tags. When they increase that, they will increase the 5% guided to be 80/10/10 or end up at 85/10/5. Five being guided. Not a bad outcome for all.

 

[Sierra]

Sometimes it takes intelligence to figure things out. Something Buzz thinks he has, but is sorely lacking.

 

[SS!]

The latest idea is to compromise with 80/10/10. Since residents have access to the guided pool, residents will get their 90%.

I like drugs too. Whatcha smoking?

 

[nfh]

I like drugs too. Whatcha smoking?

Never a dull moment with your post. This one is my favorite

 

[jims]

Here you go outfitters and Wyo res.....some things to seriously ponder!

Here's an interesting thought. Why on Earth would the outfitters want to change anything with quotas? There will be WAY more nonres tags available for potential nonres clients if the numbers stay exactly where they currently are! There would be 75% fewer nonres in the outfitter pool with 90/5/5.

Wyo res may get all excited thinking 90/10 means they will draw more high demand tags but that is far from the truth. Take a look at the chart below with draw odds with and without 90/10 tags added on for some of the popular Wyo elk units. Res draw odds for decent elk units only increases a fraction with the addition of 90/10 nonres tags.

Is it really worth going forward with this? It's a lose/lose for every nonres and only benefits a fraction of residents that are lucky enough to beat lotto draw odds. Res currently don't pay a penny for deer, elk, and antelope pref pts. Wait until res figure out how much license prices will increase if the current 77% of the license revenue that nonres provide is cut.

I can guarantee that WG&F license revenue from nonres pref pts will dramatically drop in coming years as nonres drop out of the Wyo elk, deer, and antelope pref pt game. Pref points will pretty much be meaningless with 50 or 75% fewer nonres tags issued. Pref pts for elk, deer, and antelope will be similar to what happened with Wyo sheep and moose. No one will have a chance to draw unless they have close to max pts! That is a major flaw of a pref pt system with such high demand and so few tags issued!

 

[grosventrehunter]

Wow, 80+ tags going to residents just in the fifteen examples you posted. Just imagine all the extra resident tags over all the LQ elk areas. It seems like a win-win for residents. Thanks for proving our point jims. Really, it's a very small percentage of NR tags that would go to residents. I mean, the odds wouldn't change much at all for NR jims.

 

[jm77]

Wyo res may get all excited thinking 90/10 means they will draw more high demand tags but that is far from the truth.

No it's not.

 

[lostinOregon]

Long way from proposal to settled law/regulation.

I'm surprised you would have a problem with it, aren't you a client quite often?

I don't have a problem with it. I expected it from the beginning and that was my point. Your right that that it is not over, I expect more politicians getting involved. Been on one guided hunt in Wyoming in my life, others were shared hunts just like you do Buzz. Never complained that WY wasn't being generous to NR either. I make sure I have several hunts a year and will till I can't do it anymore.

When is the next legislative session in Wyoming?

Rich

 

[BuzzH]

I don't have a problem with it. I expected it from the beginning and that was my point. Your right that that it is not over, I expect more politicians getting involved. Been on one guided hunt in Wyoming in my life, others were shared hunts just like you do Buzz. Never complained that WY wasn't being generous to NR either. I make sure I have several hunts a year and will till I can't do it anymore.

When is the next legislative session in Wyoming?

Rich

Well, since they're every year, I'd say 22...then 23...then 24 and so on.

 

[Cahunter805]

Here you go outfitters and Wyo res.....some things to seriously ponder!

Here's an interesting thought. Why on Earth would the outfitters want to change anything with quotas? There will be WAY more nonres tags available for potential nonres clients if the numbers stay exactly where they currently are! There would be 75% fewer nonres in the outfitter pool with 90/5/5.

Wyo res may get all excited thinking 90/10 means they will draw more high demand tags but that is far from the truth. Take a look at the chart below with draw odds with and without 90/10 tags added on for some of the popular Wyo elk units. Res draw odds for decent elk units only increases a fraction with the addition of 90/10 nonres tags.

Is it really worth going forward with this? It's a lose/lose for every nonres and only benefits a fraction of residents that are lucky enough to beat lotto draw odds. Res currently don't pay a penny for deer, elk, and antelope pref pts. Wait until res figure out how much license prices will increase if the current 77% of the license revenue that nonres provide is cut.

I can guarantee that WG&F license revenue from nonres pref pts will dramatically drop in coming years as nonres drop out of the Wyo elk, deer, and antelope pref pt game. Pref points will pretty much be meaningless with 50 or 75% fewer nonres tags issued. Pref pts for elk, deer, and antelope will be similar to what happened with Wyo sheep and moose. No one will have a chance to draw unless they have close to max pts! That is a major flaw of a pref pt system with such high demand and so few tags issued!

View attachment 66637

I don’t think any WY outfitter WANTS to change the quotas. The residents of WY WANT to and thus the outfitters are trying to protect themselves with more hand outs.
I respect outfitters trying to make money but feel they shouldn’t be afforded any special treatment in the process. Good outfitters are booked a few years in advance and many have repeat clients year after year. Their reputation and ability to produce trophies and a quality hunt speaks for itself.

 

[highfastflyer]

I don’t think any WY outfitter WANTS to change the quotas. The residents of WY WANT to and thus the outfitters are trying to protect themselves with more hand outs.
I respect outfitters trying to make money but feel they shouldn’t be afforded any special treatment in the process. Good outfitters are booked a few years in advance and many have repeat clients year after year. Their reputation and ability to produce trophies and a quality hunt speaks for itself.

I think you are Naive and denying the recorded facts. The President of Wyoming Outfitters and Guide Association told the TF he was willing to compromise so he personally met behind closed doors with a state Senator and another TF member. Together they hashed out an agreement. Wyoming Outfitters are clearly behind this but it does have benefits for many parties involved.

To review, the Senate Bill which was shot down last year was a much better deal for NR. It only contained 30% Outfitter set asides. This one is an Outfitters wet dream with 50% set asides. I suggest you read what transpired before demonstrating your Naivety…….. https://www.307hunter.com/articles/...-9010-possible-compromise-for-deerelkantelope

 

[highfastflyer]

Res draw odds for decent elk units only increases a fraction with the addition of 90/10 nonres tags.

Is it really worth going forward with this? It's a lose/lose for every nonres and only benefits a fraction of residents that are lucky enough to beat lotto draw odds.

You keep touting this Fuzzy math but forget we already know the ramifications of it. This will allow an additional potential of 9,000 more Resident hunters who will get the potential at additional tags. Think of it this way. This is an additional 9000 young hunters who will continue hunting, be filled with joy they have drawn a limited quota license and make memories for a lifetime ensuring our rich Wyoming resident hunter heritage for many generations to come…….

 

[jims]

Now that we all agree that changing to 90/10 and 90/5/5 barely increases Wyo res draw odds, take a look at the chart below and see what happens to nonres odds in popular elk units. The 3 columns on the right side of the chart illustrate what will happen.

This cuts EACH and EVERY nonres opportunity by 50% with 90/10 and 75% with 90/5/5 for high demand, limited tags. Not only cutting EVERY nonres opportunity in 1/2 or 3/4 but this also pretty much leaves nonres pref pts meaningless. The pref pt system for nonres elk, deer, and antelope would be very close to draw odds currently available for sheep and moose. Only nonres with close to max pts will ever draw pref pt tags and draw odds will be so low that it is definitely not worth paying high pref pt fees to apply. This is especially true for young hunters or new hunters just starting out.

Again, Wyo res contribute $0.00 in pref pt fees for managing elk, deer, and antelope in Wyo. If nonres tag quotas are left "as is" there is a SIGNIFICANT increase in new nonres adding onto the WG&F pref pt cash-cow every year! License revenue will significantly drop and continue to drop with 90/10 or 90/5/5. Why apply when nonres have sheep or moose type draw odds for elk, deer, and antelope with high pref pt fees?

The WG&F stands to loose significant revenue as more and more nonres drop out of the pref pt program each year. That is $123.00 loss/nonres from EVERY nonres hunter that quits or doesn't start applying for elk, deer, and antelope pts each year. An added fact is that few nonres will ever have a chance to draw high demand tags if they don't have close to max pts.

Why on earth would outfitters want to cut tags so significantly with such horrible draw odds for their clients? Nonres tags would be cut by 75% in the outfitter's pool with 90/5/5?

How many thousands of nonres will likely either give up or draw tags and be done in Wyo? We are already hearing this echo across the web! Multiply that by $125 for each nonres contribution that is lost to the WG&F in the form of pref pt fees. $125/nonres hunter is something Wyo res will somehow have to pick up? Wyo has been increasing tag prices and fee prices for years. You can bet that increasing nonres license fees would merely turn more nonres away from applying in Wyo....especially when tags are cut so severely!

Who's going to pick up the $ tab? Nonres pref pt fees are a stable and easy revenue generator for the WG&F if the system is left alone! What happens 20 to 30 years from now? The WG&F budget is going to take a serious pounding! Wyo's boom and bust economy definitely won't help!

Go ahead cut your throats WG&F and Wyo res! Yep you will draw a handful more tags but res draw odds will basically stay the same. Is it really worth it?

 

[Cahunter805]

I think you are Naive and denying the recorded facts. The President of Wyoming Outfitters and Guide Association told the TF he was willing to compromise so he personally met behind closed doors with a state Senator and another TF member. Together they hashed out an agreement. Wyoming Outfitters are clearly behind this but it does have benefits for many parties involved.

To review, the Senate Bill which was shot down last year was a much better deal for NR. It only contained 30% Outfitter set asides. This one is an Outfitters wet dream with 50% set asides. I suggest you read what transpired before demonstrating your Naivety…….. https://www.307hunter.com/articles/...-9010-possible-compromise-for-deerelkantelope

I am not naive to the facts. What I was stating was that outfitters did not want/initiate the proposed change to 90/10. Residents did. Once Sy saw the writing on the wall that 90/10 for elk/deer/antelope might be happening.He then changed his agenda to benefit himself and other outfitters.
Like I’ve said before I’m not opposed to the change just the outfitters pool.

 

[BPKHunter]

Wow, what a thread. So much variation in the interpretation of the math.

Doesn’t the ultimate outcome come down to what’s best for who is setting the rules here? That’s the legislature, right. Who is there biggest client? Is it Ave Joe? Is it the WYOGA? Or is the legislature really more influenced by the biggest landowners/ranchers?

Im a NR and like 99% if NR’s I want more opportunity for myself. Res want the same for themselves. Easy to see. Like most, not all, who post on forums, I’m interested in horns over meat, so LE not reduced cow. I mention this as it laughable to watch one side try and sell the other on why they should accept what is not in their best interest.

Revenue to State is secondary to what the people in power want, which is revenue to them. Though I can hear ave joe bitching over a 10%-20% increase, very loudly.

I “assume” WY legislature is run by ranchers and that the best revenue to them currently is through leases paid by Outfitters. Maybe I’m wrong. My guess is this will drive any decision. Don’t like what that means for me as a NR, hoping the status quo may, in the end prevail. I think the $$ benefit to Outfitters only matters as to how much trickles down to landowners.

All this aside, does any state in the west provide more opportunity for both more and better tags to ave joe residents than WY? If not, then I don’t see an argument for them not getting as “much” as other states residents.

I do think that with the state of WY’s economy, anything that did drastically reduce NR based economy would more harmful than many other states less dependent on this type of “tourism”.

Keeping my fingers crossed I can spend the $$ my family has invested on WY points. I love ID, and I’m sad to see it getting harder every year in my state to get tags and find horns, but I accept that’s the trend.

 

[SS!]

Can we at least all agree jims figured out a way to take better pictures of his arts and crafts charts?

 

[nfh]

Jims can you please explain this whole residents and preference points on deer,elk and antelope?

The residents have spoken and we dont want preference points so why do you keep bringing this up? Its end of story. Not happening.

 

[jm77]

View attachment 66657

Currently, the r/nr LQ elk split is 84/16, not 80/20.

 

[Savage110]

Now that we all agree that changing to 90/10 and 90/5/5 barely increases Wyo res draw odds, take a look at the chart below and see what happens to nonres odds in popular elk units. The 3 columns on the right side of the chart illustrate what will happen.

This cuts EACH and EVERY nonres opportunity by 50% with 90/10 and 75% with 90/5/5 for high demand, limited tags. Not only cutting EVERY nonres opportunity in 1/2 or 3/4 but this also pretty much leaves nonres pref pts meaningless. The pref pt system for nonres elk, deer, and antelope would be very close to draw odds currently available for sheep and moose. Only nonres with close to max pts will ever draw pref pt tags and draw odds will be so low that it is definitely not worth paying high pref pt fees to apply. This is especially true for young hunters or new hunters just starting out.

Again, Wyo res contribute $0.00 in pref pt fees for managing elk, deer, and antelope in Wyo. If nonres tag quotas are left "as is" there is a SIGNIFICANT increase in new nonres adding onto the WG&F pref pt cash-cow every year! License revenue will significantly drop and continue to drop with 90/10 or 90/5/5. Why apply when nonres have sheep or moose type draw odds for elk, deer, and antelope with high pref pt fees?

The WG&F stands to loose significant revenue as more and more nonres drop out of the pref pt program each year. That is $123.00 loss/nonres from EVERY nonres hunter that quits or doesn't start applying for elk, deer, and antelope pts each year. An added fact is that few nonres will ever have a chance to draw high demand tags if they don't have close to max pts.

Why on earth would outfitters want to cut tags so significantly with such horrible draw odds for their clients? Nonres tags would be cut by 75% in the outfitter's pool with 90/5/5?

How many thousands of nonres will likely either give up or draw tags and be done in Wyo? We are already hearing this echo across the web! Multiply that by $125 for each nonres contribution that is lost to the WG&F in the form of pref pt fees. $125/nonres hunter is something Wyo res will somehow have to pick up? Wyo has been increasing tag prices and fee prices for years. You can bet that increasing nonres license fees would merely turn more nonres away from applying in Wyo....especially when tags are cut so severely!

Who's going to pick up the $ tab? Nonres pref pt fees are a stable and easy revenue generator for the WG&F if the system is left alone! What happens 20 to 30 years from now? The WG&F budget is going to take a serious pounding! Wyo's boom and bust economy definitely won't help!

Go ahead cut your throats WG&F and Wyo res! Yep you will draw a handful more tags but res draw odds will basically stay the same. Is it really worth it?

View attachment 66657

I stopped participating in the Wyoming points charade last year for Deer, Elk, and antelope. Moose and sheep earlier than that. I'll throw my hat into the random draw every year, just not interested in burning money on points that will never get used.

 

[highfastflyer]

The WG&F stands to loose significant revenue as more and more nonres drop out of the pref pt program each year. That is $123.00 loss/nonres from EVERY nonres hunter that quits or doesn't start applying for elk, deer, and antelope pts each year.

Who's going to pick up the $ tab? Nonres pref pt fees are a stable and easy revenue generator for the WG&F if the system is left alone! What happens 20 to 30 years from now? The WG&F budget is going to take a serious pounding! Wyo's boom and bust economy definitely won't help!

Go ahead cut your throats WG&F and Wyo res! Yep you will draw a handful more tags but res draw odds will basically stay the same. Is it really worth it?

It’s not a mere handful Jims. Your fuzzy math you keep touting doesn’t show 9000 potential young Wyoming resident hunters will now get great lifetime memories and the thrill of hunting their own Resident big game where they live, work, play and help build better communities as lasting residents not transient NR. If your draw odds only improve by .005% on an elk hunt in area 124 from what the system offers now compared to this future proposal you aren’t losing much but think of all those 9000 licenses being distributed to 9,000 bright and shiny young hunters who will cherish memories for a lifetime.
Your Hangup on money and funding is of ZERO concern to us as Residents as when the Senate bill SF0103 was taken up last year it already had a built in funding structure with it which would have generated $1.3 Million more per year than we currently have. Your also wrong about NR dropping out of the NR PP scheme as many will now realize they have very good draw odds on many of those Outfitter sponsored licenses. Draw odds could improve 50% or more in many of those antelope areas and Gen elk licenses also will likely be much easier to draw as we will still issue 7250 NR elk licenses. The Outfitter revenue will Greatly increase as now at least 50% of all elk and antelope hunters are going to go fully guided. A fully guided antelope hunt on private ground with easy odds to draw, good quality food, private ground, burning the Outfitters gas and no need of worrying about lodging for a mere $2500. Now that is super good value and many will jump on that. The tourism industry will also benefit as we know fully guided hunters spend A LOT more MONEY in Wyoming than DIY hunters like yourself who fill up in Denver, buy all your food at the Denver Costco and carry a whole pickup bed full of gas cans and never spend a dime in Wyoming. This proposal is looking better and better and better for all parties involved in Wyoming and not your fake fuzzy math and whining aren’t helping your case at all……..

 

[Savage110]

It’s not a mere handful Jims. Your fuzzy math you keep touting doesn’t show 9000 potential young Wyoming resident hunters will now get great lifetime memories and the thrill of hunting their own Resident big game where they live, work, play and help build better communities as lasting residents not transient NR. If your draw odds only improve by .005% on an elk hunt in area 124 from what the system offers now compared to this future proposal you aren’t losing much but think of all those 9000 licenses being distributed to 9,000 bright and shiny young hunters who will cherish memories for a lifetime.
Your Hangup on money and funding is of ZERO concern to us as Residents as when the Senate bill SF0103 was taken up last year it already had a built in funding structure with it which would have generated $1.3 Million more per year than we currently have. Your also wrong about NR dropping out of the NR PP scheme as many will now realize they have very good draw odds on many of those Outfitter sponsored licenses. Draw odds could improve 50% or more in many of those antelope areas and Gen elk licenses also will likely be much easier to draw as we will still issue 7250 NR elk licenses. The Outfitter revenue will Greatly increase as now at least 50% of all elk and antelope hunters are going to go fully guided. A fully guided antelope hunt on private ground with easy odds to draw, good quality food, private ground, burning the Outfitters gas and no need of worrying about lodging for a mere $2500. Now that is super good value and many will jump on that. The tourism industry will also benefit as we know fully guided hunters spend A LOT more MONEY in Wyoming than DIY hunters like yourself who fill up in Denver, buy all your food at the Denver Costco and carry a whole pickup bed full of gas cans and never spend a dime in Wyoming. This proposal is looking better and better and better for all parties involved in Wyoming and not your fake fuzzy math and whining aren’t helping your case at all……..

HFF, Wyoming is such a beautiful place with amazing resourses of all kinds. It is too bad that the state is run like a country club as opposed to a legislature. If you are not in the club, you will be the next one to be victimized by one of these backroom deals.

 

[highfastflyer]

HFF, Wyoming is such a beautiful place with amazing resourses of all kinds. It is too bad that the state is run like a country club as opposed to a legislature. If you are not in the club, you will be the next one to be victimized by one of these backroom deals.

Big Ag and Oil and Gas/Coal aren’t nearly as powerful as they once were. In certain respects, their strength was actually the stability which held it all together. Now with so many transplants and transient residents the less long term commitment and trying to building lasting communities and values are being eroded. Time will tell, I can say the Elk hunting has never been better, the Mule deer hunting has never been worse.

 

[lostinOregon]

Well, since they're every year, I'd say 22...then 23...then 24 and so on.

Well Buzz,

I know you are an expert on the legislative process, but not all states have yearly sessions, in fact most work on a two-year budget process and only meet every other year. It was an honest question as I don't live in Wyoming. Carry on with your tirade.

Rich

 

[ORIONTHEHUNTER]

It's pretty funny to see all these guys for this stripping of non resident diy tags to an outfitter pool. Really funny when they complain about the outfitter allocation in New Mexico. Not sure how this is any different.

 

[highfastflyer]

It's pretty funny to see all these guys for this stripping of non resident diy tags to an outfitter pool. Really funny when they complain about the outfitter allocation in New Mexico. Not sure how this is any different.

What is the funniest is when New Mexico residents come on here and whine about Wyoming policies and procedures……..

 

[jims]

What concerns me more than anything else with 90/10 and especially 90/5/5 is that there are so few limited nonres tags that once these tags are split up between different pools (special-random, regular-random, special pref pt, and regular pref pt) that there won't be any tag available?

This is exactly why I say the current pref pt system will be totally meaningless. If I was an outfitter I would fight tooth and nail to keep the present nonres draw system exactly how it is!

In fact, with any cuts there are so few nonres tags available that there will be 0 tags available in many of the reg and special random draw pools that every nonres has a chance to draw. I certainly hope the outfitters and task force look in detail at the nonres pool numbers and consider the significant loss of nonres opportunity! Also, if I was an outfitter, I would take a very close look at draw numbers with 90/5/5!

These numbers were taken directly out of the WG&F nonres random 2021 draw pool stats. This is the pool of tags that all nonres have a chance to draw. Take a look at how many 0's are present even before 50 or 75% of the nonres tag cuts with 90/10 or 90/5/5! How many 0's will be in those boxes with 90/10 or 90/5/5?

The other sad part about this is that the other nonres pool with pref pts will have from 0 to a few tags and will take max pts to draw these tags and there won't be any tags available in the random pool that all nonres would have a chance to draw.

It's totally a lose-lose situation for nonres with 90/10 or 90/5/5. A total loss of opportunity in many limited units across Wyoming for nonres! Take a close look outfitters and task force! Your work is definitely cut out for you! Are all the negative impacts really worth it?

 

[jims]

Ok here you go DIY/OYO nonres, outfitters, and task force! Number of nonres random tags for popular nonres elk units in 2021, and with 90/10, and 90/5/5 tag numbers. There doesn't look like much nonresident opportunity for Wyo elk...especially with 90/5/5!

The sad part about all of this is that in a few years it will require max pts to draw just about every nonres high demand tag. What happened with Wyo sheep and moose will happen to nonres for elk, deer, and antelope! Outfitters, I hope I don't end up telling you, "I told you so" 10 to 15 years from now when you have 0 clients for your hunts!

Why on earth would nonres continue applying in Wyo if it takes max pref pts to draw the only tags available? There will be a huge loss of opportunity for every nonres hunter and substantial revenue loss to the WG&F.

 

[highfastflyer]

@jims

Jims if you are so concerned about RANDOM tags then why don’t you go change how the COLORADO system awards Random tags. Oh that’s right there are EXACTLY ZERO Random tags for limited quota hunts in Colorado. Random is a super small slice of the pie in Wyoming and was designed that way on purpose. Show us the copies of the letters and emails you have sent to Colorado elected officials trying to get NR Random tag opportunity changes for limited quota hunts. SMH.

 

[jims]

Great point HFF! Absolutely why Wyo needs to consider nonres young hunters and new hunters just starting out applying in Wyo. If nearly all high demand nonres tags go to those with max pts why should they even apply and spend $125 each year on pref pts?

The WG&F will lose a pile of nonres license revenue not only from selling fewer high priced nonres licenses but fewer and fewer nonres applicants buying pref pts since they are meaningless.

I hope outfitters and the task force look at the numbers and $!

 

[highfastflyer]

Great point HFF! Absolutely why Wyo needs to consider nonres young hunters and new hunters just starting out applying in Wyo. If nearly all high demand nonres tags go to those with max pts why should they even apply and spend $125 each year on pref pts?

The WG&F will lose a pile of nonres license revenue not only from selling fewer high priced nonres licenses but fewer and fewer nonres applicants buying pref pts since they are meaningless.

I hope outfitters and the task force look at the numbers and $!

Drop out if you don’t like it, nobody is forcing you to play. Many though realize the great value even with reduced opportunity and will continue to support the PP system in Wyoming. You just need to align yourself with an Outfitter and your odds will dramatically INCREASE. Wyoming will get plenty of revenue, don’t worry about that in the slightest. Outfitters love this proposal as they were the masterminds behind it, wake up to Reality……..

 

[Conrad8899]

As a Wyoming resident I don’t want to give the outfitters 5 percent of the nonresident tags period…

 

[Bookhead]

As a Wyoming resident I don’t want to give the outfitters 5 percent of the nonresident tags period…

Why not that 5 percent less on public land in most areas lol

 

[Conrad8899]

U really think it will be 5 percent less? I would like to see outfitters tag be desalinated either private land only or NF only.. Then U might see less than 5 percent on public land…

 

[Conrad8899]

I just don’t want to give them nothing they got enough with the wilderness law as far as I am concerned… Enough welfare?

 

[PLK]

I just don’t understand all the hate towards the outfitters. I wonder how many Wyoming residents hire an outfitter for sheep, moose, mountain goats and elk.

 

[30Hart]

I just don’t understand all the hate towards the outfitters. I wonder how many Wyoming residents hire an outfitter for sheep, moose, mountain goats and elk.

I would say very little. Lived there awhile...hire an outfitter...you'd never hear the end of it from your buddies. They'd never invite you to elk camp again...lol.

 

[WapitiBob]

Ok here you go DIY/OYO nonres, outfitters, and task force! Number of nonres random tags for popular nonres elk units in 2021, and with 90/10, and 90/5/5 tag numbers. There doesn't look like much nonresident opportunity for Wyo elk...especially with 90/5/5!

View attachment 66745
The sad part about all of this is that in a few years it will require max pts to draw just about every nonres high demand tag. What happened with Wyo sheep and moose will happen to nonres for elk, deer, and antelope! Outfitters, I hope I don't end up telling you, "I told you so" 10 to 15 years from now when you have 0 clients for your hunts!

Why on earth would nonres continue applying in Wyo if it takes max pref pts to draw the only tags available? There will be a huge loss of opportunity for every nonres hunter and substantial revenue loss to the WG&F.

 

[Conrad8899]

I just don’t understand all the hate towards the outfitters. I wonder how many Wyoming residents hire an outfitter for sheep, moose, mountain goats and elk.

I don't see a lot of residents using a outfitter except for sheep and mountain goat maybe moose and maybe a late elk hunt in Cody where U might need horses but that is slim pickings. There bread and butter is nonresidents. The hate for outfitters probably come from there arrogant attitude when U run into them on public property... PLK if U owned a business, and it was failing do U think U could run to the City Government for a handout? I am not saying the outfitters are failing so why do they need special tags and why do they need the wilderness law... Hell there's residents of Wyoming who have not drawn a decent elk tag in their lifetime 10 to 20 years they deserve a tag why shouldn't game&fish just give them a tag...

 

[nfh]

I just don’t understand all the hate towards the outfitters. I wonder how many Wyoming residents hire an outfitter for sheep, moose, mountain goats and elk

There is quite a few of residents that hire outfitters. Mainly mnt goats, sheep and moose. Lot of residents that dont live close to scout. Even local residents pick up outfitters last 2 weeks of season incase they cant find their game. I know some old guys that hire outfitters for elk hunts to.

 

[DoubleU]

Any statement by residents or outfitters about wanting parity with other states is disingenuous without including including in that conversation the WY wilderness restrictions on NR.

 

[jims]

Most Wyo res would likely agree that it is nice to have the flexibility when a tag is drawn to decide whether they want to go guided or non-guided.

I’m sure a lot of res would also agree that they don’t want any more additional set aside tags for outfitters and landowners.

I think everyone would agree that if Wyo imposes set aside outfitter tags, 90/10 or 90/5/5, plus the guide in wilderness law for nonres that Wyo would be the most restrictive of all western states in regard to DIY nonres opportunity. At least nonres in new mex can hunt wilderness without a guide!

Wyo would convert from one of the most DIY friendly nonres states to the most restrictive just for the sake of a few additional res limited tags that barely increase res draw odds.

 

[Savage110]

I would say very little. Lived there awhile...hire an outfitter...you'd never hear the end of it from your buddies. They'd never invite you to elk camp again...lol.

Agreed 105%. Using a guide would diminish my experience, although it would increase my chances of inches on my rack. If only I measured anything I’ve shot. That said, if I had a primo sheep tag I would hire one in a second. Just no way for me to get enough info and time in the unit to have a hunt. Elk, I’m always doing it on my own, or not at all.

 

[highfastflyer]

There is no stigma attached to using an Outfitter as a Wyoming resident. In fact many use them for Sheep hunts as hardly anybody anymore has good enough livestock and expertise to get far back into many of those wilderness areas. Many residents also pay for private land hunts also but it’s mostly for the access to private ground on elk and deer hunts. If you don’t want to hire an outfitter that is a personal decision but realize having access to private ground in no way takes away from the experience. It actually adds to the experience. Those hunters who pony up and go on a guided elk hunt on the Q creek for elk will tell you how it was an amazing experience seeing all the big bulls. Different strokes for different folks but it should in no way diminish the experience it’s just something different you normally can’t experience without the aid of a professional Outfitter and the fact they have leased up vast amounts of private lands.

 

[wweaver79]

Can we get rid of this thread its going to cause more elk point creep.
Love you guys

 

[jims]

I thought I would add to the chart that I have in my post above. As you can see things don't look that great for nonres even with current 2021 draw odds. The 3 column sets are for the random nonres elk draw that every hunter has a chance to draw tags. Take a look at the 90/10 and 90/5/5 columns after 50 or 75% of the nonres tags would be eliminated.

As you can see there are a lot of 0's in the 90/5/5 column. There are a few nonres tags available in the pref pt draw but only those with max pts will have the chance to draw them.

I'm not exactly sure why outfitters would be in favor of 90/5/5 when there would be 0 random tags available in almost all units for their clients? I certainly hope outfitters figure out that it's tough to beat current nonres quotas.

 

[Bookhead]

I thought I would add to the chart that I have in my post above. As you can see things don't look that great for nonres even with current 2021 draw odds. The 3 column sets are for the random nonres elk draw that every hunter has a chance to draw tags. Take a look at the 90/10 and 90/5/5 columns after 50 or 75% of the nonres tags would be eliminated.

As you can see there are a lot of 0's in the 90/5/5 column. There are a few nonres tags available in the pref pt draw but only those with max pts will have the chance to draw them.

I'm not exactly sure why outfitters would be in favor of 90/5/5 when there would be 0 random tags available in almost all units for their clients? I certainly hope outfitters figure out that it's tough to beat current nonres quotas.


View attachment 66923

You spend a considerable amount of time building graphs and charts to prove a point everyone already understands.

 

[WapitiBob]

When you start with incorrect numbers for 2021 there isn't much reason to continue.

 

[junior]

Obviously he's trying to change wyoga mind....and to put corner crossing into play the same year.

 

[jims]

What numbers did I list wrong in 2021? 16-2 had 1 tag in the reg and 1 tag in the special in 2021.

You are absolutely correct that I'm trying to sway the wyoga from cutting their own throats plus DIY nonres with 90/5/5. It's pretty simple to see that is the case when you look at the numbers!

 

[Savage110]

There is no stigma attached to using an Outfitter as a Wyoming resident. In fact many use them for Sheep hunts as hardly anybody anymore has good enough livestock and expertise to get far back into many of those wilderness areas. Many residents also pay for private land hunts also but it’s mostly for the access to private ground on elk and deer hunts. If you don’t want to hire an outfitter that is a personal decision but realize having access to private ground in no way takes away from the experience. It actually adds to the experience. Those hunters who pony up and go on a guided elk hunt on the Q creek for elk will tell you how it was an amazing experience seeing all the big bulls. Different strokes for different folks but it should in no way diminish the experience it’s just something different you normally can’t experience without the aid of a professional Outfitter and the fact they have leased up vast amounts of private lands.

They wont stop leasing up these "vast amounts of Private Lands" until we stop paying for their services. We stop using outfitters, they stop leasing the land. We have the power.

 

[highfastflyer]

They wont stop leasing up these "vast amounts of Private Lands" until we stop paying for their services. We stop using outfitters, they stop leasing the land. We have the power.

In many cases the landowners actually earn far less than they could be by selling premium trespass fees. They lease to Outfitters as they provide security, patrolling the area and potentially better management for wildlife than they have as landowners with Outfitters with professional wildlife expertise. If you think you can unite hunters to stop using guides and Outfitters good luck with that…….I’m not holding my breath. The thing I would like to see is give incentives to the Outfitters to get them off the public lands and onto private. It won’t work in all areas like predominantly Wilderness areas but in some the amount of fully Outfitted hunts is intense and they harvest the majority of many of the biggest bucks/bulls in those areas. It would be nice as a DIY hunter to not have a half dozen strings of horses going up/down all the main trailheads into some of these areas and dozens of guides scouting weeks ahead of the hunts for the best quality animals.

 

[jims]

The easiest way to allow an even playing field in regard to outfitters and diy hunters is to not increase set aside outfitter or landowner tags.

If a tag is drawn the res or nonres hunter has the choice to go guided or hunt DIY/OYO!

 

[highfastflyer]

The easiest way to allow an even playing field in regard to outfitters and diy hunters is to not increase set aside outfitter or landowner tags.

If a tag is drawn the res or nonres hunter has the choice to go guided or hunt DIY/OYO!

I thought the focus was about generating the most income for all these small town businesses and cities across Wyoming. Guided hunts and hunters will surely do that. You have no less than 25 posts above stating those exact words. Go back and read what you posted and all the charts and graphs you previously posted. Now you’re trying to change from your deeply held concern about how much revenue we will lose, to now taking away all that badly needed revenue these small businesses and cities need and losing it to DIY hunters. Get your story straight!!!!

 

[jims]

HFH again, you are absolutely right about nonres generating more revenue! Dropping nonres tags by 50% definitely isn't going to do that! Take a look at the nonres tag numbers in my chart. Most units across Wyo will suddenly have 0 nonres limited random tags with 90/10 or 90/5/5. There actually aren't that many limited nonres tags with the current 2021 quotas!

Nonres also contribute 77% of the WG&F license revenue. Dropping nonres tags by 50% with 90/10 or 90/5/5 will also drop the WG&F revenue. More nonres will also drop out of the draws or not start applying and buy pref pts as draw odds skyrocket and pref pt values becomes meaningless.

There hasn't been 1 Wyo resident that has mentioned where all the WG&F revenue loss will be picked up? Wyo res don't have pref pts for deer, elk, and antelope.....and contribute $0.00. Wyo res scream every time their license fees go up by a dime. Where is this revenue going to come from? You can be guaranteed that nonres will drop out of Wyo like flies if limited tags are dropped by 50 to 75% and nonres have to pay more for fees and licenses! As a positive note.......if left, "as is" the WG&F revenue from nonres pref pts and increase $ generated from paying higher nonres license fees will continue to grow!

For goodness sake, the best thing that could happen for the WG&F, outfitters, DIY nonres is to leave elk, deer, and antelope tag quotas as they are! The benefit Wyo res get from only a few more limited tags is so minimal. I certainly hope that every outfitter and task force member are reading these posts!

 

[highfastflyer]

HFH again, you are absolutely right about nonres generating more revenue! Dropping nonres tags by 50% definitely isn't going to do that! Take a look at the nonres tag numbers in my chart. Most units across Wyo will suddenly have 0 nonres limited random tags with 90/10 or 90/5/5. There actually aren't that many limited nonres tags with the current 2021 quotas!

Nonres also contribute 77% of the WG&F license revenue. Dropping nonres tags by 50% with 90/10 or 90/5/5 will also drop the WG&F revenue. More nonres will also drop out of the draws or not start applying and buy pref pts as draw odds skyrocket and pref pt values becomes meaningless.

There hasn't been 1 Wyo resident that has mentioned where all the WG&F revenue loss will be picked up? Wyo res don't have pref pts for deer, elk, and antelope.....and contribute $0.00. Wyo res scream every time their license fees go up by a dime. Where is this revenue going to come from? You can be guaranteed that nonres will drop out of Wyo like flies if limited tags are dropped by 50 to 75% and nonres have to pay more for fees and licenses! As a positive note.......if left, "as is" the WG&F revenue from nonres pref pts and increase $ generated from paying higher nonres license fees will continue to grow!

For goodness sake, the best thing that could happen for the WG&F, outfitters, DIY nonres is to leave elk, deer, and antelope tag quotas as they are! The benefit Wyo res get from only a few more limited tags is so minimal. I certainly hope that every outfitter and task force member are reading these posts!

Historically only about 30% of elk hunters, 10% of deer hunters and 5% of antelope hunters went on fully guided trips. We know NR DIY hunters rarely even spend a dime like yourself as you buy all your food in Denver at the Costco and fill up with gas in Denver and pile in your pickup a whole bunch of gas cans full of gas, the Utah hunters do the same coming from SLC. Fully guided hunts will now go to likely 70% of all NR hunters and deer and antelope will likely be 50% of all the licensed hunts issued in Wyoming. A fully guided hunter typically spends about $2700 in hotels, shopping and extra sporting goods supplies and taxidermy in Wyoming. We will now have a likely 50% boom in hiring and jobs required from guides, taxidermy work and all associated businesses to support these fully guided and Outfitted hunts and will cause an economic boom for our small cities, towns and businesses and even with a 50% cutback in license the amount of fully guided hunts will increase so much it will be one of the largest windfalls and economic booms we will have created many many jobs, increased domestic in state spending and a thriving metropolis here. Thanks Jims for recommending all these economic policies and need to shore up our own economy here in Wyoming. All your posts above about needing to increase our Wyoming economy has paid off and we are taking it to heart and excited about all this new economic booming activity. Great work!!!!!!

 

[jims]

HFH, something is definitely wrong if 50 to 70% of nonres hunters are guided! That is exactly what I've been talking about with Wyo's hunting heritage going to the dogs! According to your numbers, not only will 50 to 70% of nonres be guided but nonres can't hunt in wilderness without a guide. Wyo would instantly turn to the worse state in the entire country for DIY nonres hunter opportunity....even worse than NM!

Take another look at the chart above. With 90/5/5 there will be 0 nonres random tags available to outfitters or DIY hunters in the following units: 54-1, 54-2, 16-1, 16-2, 111, 24, 124, 113, 61-1, 61-2, 30, 31, 32, 1, 2, 6, 8, 19-1, 19-2, 23, 47, 51, 53-1, 53,2, 55, 56, 59, 61-2, 62, 63-2, 64-2, 78-1, 78-2, 84, 88, 91, 106, 108, 116, 118, 120,, 124 in the regular draw and all but 1 of the special draw units I listed will have 0 nonres random tags.

Obviously 0 nonres tags issued means 0 outfitter clients and $0.00 to small town community revenue. How are these small towns going to prosper if outfitter clients don't exist? I'm sure the Task Force members will figure this out quickly!

 

[highfastflyer]

HFH, something is definitely wrong if 50 to 70% of nonres hunters are guided! That is exactly what I've been talking about with Wyo's hunting heritage going to the dogs! According to your numbers, not only will 50 to 70% of nonres be guided but nonres can't hunt in wilderness without a guide. Wyo would instantly turn to the worse state in the entire country for DIY nonres hunter opportunity....even worse than NM!

Take another look at the chart above. With 90/5/5 there will be 0 nonres random tags available to outfitters or DIY hunters in the following units: 54-1, 54-2, 16-1, 16-2, 111, 24, 124, 113, 61-1, 61-2, 30, 31, 32, 1, 2, 6, 8, 19-1, 19-2, 23, 47, 51, 53-1, 53,2, 55, 56, 59, 61-2, 62, 63-2, 64-2, 78-1, 78-2, 84, 88, 91, 106, 108, 116, 118, 120,, 124 in the regular draw and all but 1 of the special draw units I listed will have 0 nonres random tags.

Obviously 0 nonres tags issued means 0 outfitter clients and $0.00 to small town community revenue. How are these small towns going to prosper if outfitter clients don't exist? I'm sure the Task Force members will figure this out quickly!

Since you are so concerned about RANDOM NR tags I suggest you go try and fix Colorado. How many Random tags does Colorado offer? Oh that’s right exactly ZERO. Random tags are such a small slice of the pie we don’t even hardly bother counting those up. What we do know is even with a 50% cutback in overall NonRes numbers we are headed for an economic BOOM as 70% of elk hunts, 50% of all deer and 50% of all antelope will now be fully guided and those NR fully guided hunters are what spend the big bucks in Wyoming not the small fry NR DIY hunters. Thanks for all your help with creating an economic BOOM here in Wyoming and fix helping us Wyoming NR possibly be able to get Random tags in Colorado, looking forward to that day…….

 

[PLK]

Since you are so concerned about RANDOM NR tags I suggest you go try and fix Colorado. How many Random tags does Colorado offer? Oh that’s right exactly ZERO. Random tags are such a small slice of the pie we don’t even hardly bother counting those up. What we do know is even with a 50% cutback in overall NonRes numbers we are headed for an economic BOOM as 70% of elk hunts, 50% of all deer and 50% of all antelope will now be fully guided and those NR fully guided hunters are what spend the big bucks in Wyoming not the small fry NR DIY hunters. Thanks for all your help with creating an economic BOOM here in Wyoming and fix helping us Wyoming NR possibly be able to get Random tags in Colorado, looking forward to that day…….

HFF,
Where are you obtaining this information that 70% of all NR elk hunters, 50% of deer hunters and 50% of antelope hunters will be fully guided? Lowering the potential numbers of high quality tags and replacing them with lesser quality general season or doe (deer and antelope) tags doesn’t seem like a strategy to increase outfitters client numbers.
The change to 90/5/5 will certainly cause a reduction in late season elk tags throughout the state. Perhaps you could share your source of “insider information”.

Thanks

 

[WapitiBob]

Area 100 had 6 and 4. I quit looking after that.

 

[jims]

Here you go Bob. Thanks for finding the 1 error. If you find any more let me know. I thought it would be good to put numbers with the words. I'm sure the Task Force members and outfitters have reference to these same numbers...which is very revealing!

 

[highfastflyer]

HFF,
Where are you obtaining this information that 70% of all NR elk hunters, 50% of deer hunters and 50% of antelope hunters will be fully guided? Lowering the potential numbers of high quality tags and replacing them with lesser quality general season or doe (deer and antelope) tags doesn’t seem like a strategy to increase outfitters client numbers.
The change to 90/5/5 will certainly cause a reduction in late season elk tags throughout the state. Perhaps you could share your source of “insider information”.

Thanks

Antelope are the easiest to assess as they are all limited quota so 50% will be paired up with an Outfitter. Elk are the next likeliest to assess as a much higher percentage of elk hunters historically used an outfitter, something like 1/3 of the NR elk hunts are fully guided this from the WYOGA. With 50% of all limited quota elk hunts and a good percentage of GEN hunters choosing to go fully guided in those Wilderness areas the potential could be around 70%. The deer hunters may or may not be 50% but we know 50% of all the limited quota tags will be offered as an Outfitter sponsored tag and many NR hunters choosing to hunt on private lands or the Wilderness areas will go fully guided. This economic report lists some of the data. https://wyoga.org/wp-content/upload...ting-Economics-Southwick-Associates-Final.pdf

 

[nripepi]

A fully guided hunter typically spends about $2700 in hotels, shopping and extra sporting goods supplies and taxidermy in Wyoming.

Where is this from?

 

[highfastflyer]

Where is this from?

That was from the older 2015 study. The latest figures now have fully guided hunters spending $5100 so an even bigger economic gain by Wyoming. We also know many of the DIY Hunters from Utah and Colorado rarely spend a dime. https://wyoga.org/wp-content/upload...ting-Economics-Southwick-Associates-Final.pdf

 

[Sierra]

If you sell every WY tag to the highest bidder (Tristate’s proposed approach), WY would see a massive economic impact. Residents that say that they are willing to pay more should have no problem getting a tag.

 

[DoubleU]

Most of them $$$$ probably go to tIp NR guides like myself who use a wheel barrow to haul the greenbacks back to our home states, where we in turn applying/buy our preference points in Wyoming. True … but funny

 

[highfastflyer]

Most of them $$$$ probably go to tIp NR guides like myself who use a wheel barrow to haul the greenbacks back to our home states, where we in turn applying/buy our preference points in Wyoming. True … but funny

Always good to have a few camp trannys around, especially after a long ride in the mountains, good service demands a good tip.

 

[jims]

Ok guys, here is some more to digest. Nonres deer draw odds in the random pool with 2021, 90/10, and 90/5/5 tag allotments.

These are a large chunk of the popular limited deer units. There really aren't that many limited deer units and tags available. Notice that with 90/5/5 almost all of these units offer 0 nonres random tags! As I've been saying all along nonres opportunity is close to 0 for all but nonres that have max pts. The pref pt system will be pretty much be meaningless with draw odds for max applicants similar to what's currently the case for Wyo sheep and moose.

With almost 0 opportunity for nonres to draw tags in the random pool and only tags going to a few lucky nonres with max pts why should nonres continue to buy pref pts and apply in Wyo?

Even with the 2021 quotas there are very few tags issued. When these numbers are cut in 1/2 or 3/4 there aren't any tags left. Hopefully the outfitters look at the numbers and realize that with 90/5/5 there won't be hardly any tags available for their clients.

Take a look at how few tags are available and will end up in the hands of Wyo res with 90/10 or 90/5/5. Is it really worth the negative impacts this will have on EVERY nonres , the WG&F budget, etc?

 

[highfastflyer]

Ok guys, here is some more to digest. Nonres deer draw odds in the random pool with 2021, 90/10, and 90/5/5 tag allotments.

These are a large chunk of the popular limited deer units. There really aren't that many limited deer units and tags available. Notice that with 90/5/5 almost all of these units offer 0 nonres random tags! As I've been saying all along nonres opportunity is close to 0 for all but nonres that have max pts. The pref pt system will be pretty much be meaningless with draw odds for max applicants similar to what's currently the case for Wyo sheep and moose.

With almost 0 opportunity for nonres to draw tags in the random pool and only tags going to a few lucky nonres with max pts why should nonres continue to buy pref pts and apply in Wyo?

Even with the 2021 quotas there are very few tags issued. When these numbers are cut in 1/2 or 3/4 there aren't any tags left. Hopefully the outfitters look at the numbers and realize that with 90/5/5 there won't be hardly any tags available for their clients.

Take a look at how few tags are available and will end up in the hands of Wyo res with 90/10 or 90/5/5. Is it really worth the negative impacts this will have on EVERY nonres , the WG&F budget, etc?

View attachment 67439

There will still be many NR tags available about 9000 total licenses and having preference points will be paramount to obtaining them. Aligning with an Outfitter will also greatly increase odds, especially if they are permitted by WYOGA to guide in the area you want to hunt. Outfitters are chomping at the bit to get this passed as they masterminded it. Wyoming Game and Fish will be just fine as they will raise license prices as needed to maintain funding. This was already planned in the Senate Bill from last year which produced a revenue surplus of over $1,000,000.

 

[WapitiBob]

Here you go Bob. Thanks for finding the 1 error. If you find any more let me know. I thought it would be good to put numbers with the words. I'm sure the Task Force members and outfitters have reference to these same numbers...which is very revealing!

View attachment 67361

nothing wrong with voicing your concerns to the task force

 

[sneakem]

This thread is brutal...

 

[desperatehills]

It is like that scene in "Tin Cup" where Kevin Costner repeatedly hits balls in the water. The announcer screams "somebody tackle him!"

 

[highfastflyer]

Apparently some dissension and push back now from the Outfitters on the 90/10 for the Big 5. I also learned from this since it’s a budget year, any non budget items require a 2/3 majority to pass. This from Rob………

Will The Outfitters Oppose 90/10 for the Big 5 (HB0043)?
I spoke to one State Senator this week who said there's a chance the Wyoming Outfitters and Guides Association (WYOGA) will come out opposed to HB0043, this year's 90/10 Bill for the Big 5 Species (Grizzly, Bison, Sheep, Goat, Moose).

90/10 for the Big 5 species was a proposal brought forward by Sy Gilliland, WYOGA President, at the first Wyoming Wildlife Task Force (WWTF) meeting last summer. The proposal was unanimously approved by the WWTF and forwarded to the Joint TRW Committee last fall. Rep. Jamie Sommers, who sits on the WWTF and is Co-Chair of the Joint TRW Committee shepherded the bill through committee, and eventually it received a 13-2 majority vote. The Bill still has to pass the introductory 2/3 vote in the state house next week, to be fully considered by the legislature.

However, at the Joint TRW Committee hearing last fall, WYOGA's lobbyist was careful to say that WYOGA had not taken an official position on the bill, even though it was brought forward by the outfitters on the Joint TRW Committee. My understand is that at least one outfitter in Sublette County and perhaps others in the northwest part of the state, opposed the bill. If so, this would indicated a split amongst the outfitters, and possibly on the WYOGA Board.“.

 

[jims]

You can bet there are a bunch of closed door conversations going on!

 

[jims]

If Wyo truly wants to follow suit with other neighboring state's quotas they may want to re-evaluate the landowner tag quotas and process.

How many Wyo res are aware of how many landowner tags were issued for high demand limited elk, deer, and antelope units in 2021?

There were actually 1,328 elk, 751 deer, and 1,103 antelope type 1, 2, 4 or 9 tags issued in 2021.

What % of the total res and nonres tags do these landowner tags represent?????

There are actually more limited nonres elk landowner tags issued than public draw nonres tags issued in many of the reg/special draws.

If Wyo res are smart and want more opportunity they may want to figure out a strategy to cap landowner tag quotas?

1) Landowner tags are taken off the top.
1) There is no set quota on high demand limited unit landowner tags issued.
2) There isn't a drawing for landowner tags with a fixed cap on the % of landowner tags available.

Possibly consider Colorado's landowner quotas as reference? 10% of limited tags in units West of I25 and 15% of limited tags in units E of I25 are issued in the public drawing to landowners.

Wyo is way more generous to landowners than Colo. In fact, most Wyo limited elk and deer units offer 30%+ of the total limited tags to landowners. I understand that landowner should be given preference for a proportion of these tags...but?