Done with Western Expo

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Do not need any gear so no need to fly to SLC other than the 200 hunts. Since have no idea of the odds, am instead spending same money (air, hotel, expo fee, draw fees for the 200 hunts) on hunt lotteries where they publish the odds. I am ranking the odds and placing my money where best 2009 odds were.

Not sure why the odds for Expo are not published but does not matter to me. Fact is, no idea where to rank the Expo odds so bye bye.

Anyway, your odds are better by 1 hunter at Expo in 2010. Good luck. They just got worse in some other lotteries though!
 
quoting REDDOG....."the wheels on the bus go round and round....."



great post/pic, thanks for sharing

JB
497fc2397b939f19.jpg
 
Probabally not much worse, maybe better draw odds than the nonresident regular limited entry/once in a lifetime draw odds. They took 5% of the tags out of the regular draw for the expo, 1/2 of those come out of the nonresident pool. So now nonresidents get 7.5% (was 10% pre expo) of the limited entry tags in the regular draw, the expo draw gets 5%...
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-22-09 AT 08:26PM (MST)[p]I'm just going to see Spidy spin around in circles again...ROFLMFAO!! The expo is awesome, even if there was no draw at all I'd be there every year just to walk around drinking a beer looking at all the sweet taxi work :) SFW always has those sexy blondes walking around in spandex too...

~Z~
 
I feel your pain!

That screwy must be present to validate gig is not really fair to all our non-ressy friends at all......

I live here so it is not a big deal to me as far as travel ect goes.

I have really toned it down on tag appl amount$$ there but I still toss $100 in the pool......some one is going to draw!

Robb
 
Within my family alone we have drawn 2 Expo elk tags, and every year I know several other guys that pull tags. You gotta pay to play in this state I guess :)
 
Well the "screwy must be present to validate" deal might not be fair to non-residents...

...but it's not nearly as big a screw-job as taking tags from Utah residents who have been applying for a lifetime and putting them up for SFW's benefit.
 
A friend of mine calls it the "tag pimping convention" and it has served to make trophy hunting a truly elitist endeavor. Other than that, I am all for it!

UTROY
Proverbs 21:19 (why I hunt!)
 
OUTDOORS,I don't know why you are so upset about draw odd's. Who care's about the draw odd's, it's another chance to get a good hunt opportunity.I have been lucky enough to win two tag's in three year's. I had great time's with my friend's on these hunt's. Hunt's I would have never got to experience if it was not for the Westren Expo.If you want the draw odd's so bad, call someone and ask for them. Sound's like your pissed about something else.Your loss, other's gain.
 
>Well the "screwy must be present
>to validate" deal might not
>be fair to non-residents...
>
>...but it's not nearly as big
>a screw-job as taking tags
>from Utah residents who have
>been applying for a lifetime
>and putting them up for
>SFW's benefit.

If SFW and other's didn't get the tag's to auction off to raise money for conservation project's, there wouldn't be any tag's to draw anyway's.The state and federal goverment doesn't have the money to fund project's. Have you watched the new's in the last two year's. State and Federal goverment is broke. If SFW,FNAWS, RMEF, MULE DEER FOUNDATION, AND NWTF DON'T DO THE NECESSARY FUND RAISEING, WHO WILL. Go get a Utah proclamation from 1985 and look at the big game proclamation, look at the opportunity you had then. Look at the big game proclamation for 2009. See a difference in opportunity? Do you really trust the Utah DWR to make all the right decissions? I know some of them have good intenion's, but I don't think they could manage a goat farm. Wake up people!!!
Get informed, get some fact's. Quit bitching!!!Take advantage of the opportunity given to you. Or not.
 
If in fact it's all about raising money for the benefit of wildlife then why not allow non-residents to validate on the internet. Imagine the amount of money that process could generate. As far as draw odds go, anyone with a basic second grade education can conclude that they are not good. It's very similar to gambling in Las Vegas. A few people get lucky and a lot of folks go home empty. And of course the lucky ones are going to have a positive outlook on the experience. This year my brother and I will make the drive to Salt Lake just to validate. Then we will turn around and drive home. That's about a 600 mile round trip. It seems like a serious waste of other resources to me, but as said before, you can't draw if you don't put in.
 
>OUTDOORS,I don't know why you are
>so upset about draw odd's.
>Who care's about the draw
>odd's, it's another chance to
>get a good hunt opportunity.I
>have been lucky enough to
>win two tag's in three
>year's. I had great time's
>with my friend's on these
>hunt's. Hunt's I would have
>never got to experience if
>it was not for the
>Westren Expo.If you want the
>draw odd's so bad, call
>someone and ask for them.
>Sound's like your pissed about
>something else.Your loss, other's gain.
>

I am not upset about odds. To each their own. I have no reason to go to Expo as I loaded up on gear last year for a goat hunt. Only reason to go in 2010 would be to validate the 200 tags. I am trying to be smarter with my "betting" money this year. I have other opportunities to buy lottery chances at great tags in the West where odds are public so I am comparing the various odds and placing my "bets" where odds are likely to be best. Being lucky is one way to increase odds and what I am doing is another tactic. Expo does not release odds so no way to rank so Expo is not in the running.

Good news is your odds got better by 1! Good luck everyone.
 
>If in fact it's all about
>raising money for the benefit
>of wildlife then why not
>allow non-residents to validate on
>the internet. Imagine the amount
>of money that process could
>generate. As far as draw
>odds go, anyone with a
>basic second grade education can
>conclude that they are not
>good. It's very similar
>to gambling in Las Vegas.
>A few people get lucky
>and a lot of folks
>go home empty. And
>of course the lucky ones
>are going to have a
>positive outlook on the experience.
> This year my brother
>and I will make the
>drive to Salt Lake just
>to validate. Then we will
>turn around and drive home.
>That's about a 600 mile
>round trip. It seems like
>a serious waste of other
>resources to me, but as
>said before, you can't draw
>if you don't put in.
>

Validation at the Expo probably has to do with wanting to fill hotel rooms rather than be purely about raising money for overhead and wildlife projects.

The further you live from the Expo then the more fuel you burn to drive to the Expo and the more likley you need to have a hotel room. So, being further from SLC increases the effective cost to apply. The tag application is $5 but the effective cost varies a lot depending on the applicant. If you live in SLC you play at a discount to more remote Utah residents ane non-residents.

Based on above and not knowing odds, was easy call for me as non-resident to pass on Expo.
 
I TRIED TO GET A FEW BUDDIES TO GO.....BUT THEY TOO STATED THAT IT IS NOT SET UP FOR THE NON RESIDENT WHEN IT COMES TO BUYING TICKETS TO DRAW TAGS. THERE ARE SIX OF US IN THE GROUP....FIGURE HOTEL ROOMS, FOOD & DRINK, ENTERTAINMENT, GAS OR FLIGHT TICKETS & MISC. $$$$ SPENT.....THATS A TON OF CASH NOT FLOWING INTO THE STATE OF UTAH. THEN FIGURE IF WE DID DRAW....WE WOULD COME BACK & SPEND MORE $$$$$$.......SOMEBODY DROPPED THE $$$$ BALL....SOMEONE SHOULD RE THINK THIS...............YD.
 
For me it's 100% about contributing to the preservation of wildlife and the lifestyle associated with fishing and hunting.

I could just right out a check for a few dollars and donate to SFW or MDF or which ever org. but it seems I need a little extra incentive to motivate me to cut the check. Too selfish or too lazy I guess.

I've never expected to win anything (all though last year I did draw a hunt last year).

I rarely purchase anything at the show because I already own more stuff than I use. But I go visit the vendor booths because I like to see the new stuff and you just never know, something might catch your eye.

I've always figured since it was Utah wildlife being offered in the hunt draws the majority of the opportunity should be going to Utah residents, even though they could raise more money if it was open to non-resident. It's true that it's all about fund raising but it needs to be as fair as possible to the resident of Utah at the same time. Balance is hard to have when your trying to raise money and at the same time keeping some degree of fairness to those sportsmen who's wildlife is being used to raise the funds. If Colorado, Nevada, Ariz., Idaho and Wyoming wanted to put 200 hunts each into the drawings an equitable percentage of the tags could go to the non-residence. Utah DWR must believe it's beneficial or they would not continue to give the Expo the permits.

So far as on-site registration is concerned, without vendors, outfitters, taxidermists, etc., etc. that make the Expo an Expo there would be very little reason to come together to celebrate wildlife and the outdoor lifestyle. The on-site registration validation system ensures the vendors there will be large attendance at the show thereby justifying the very expensive investment they make to travel to and set up their wares.

It seems the party events (concerts), the large vendor participation, the auctions, the 200 hunt draws, the banquets all come together to weave a successful fabric to raise money for wildlife. Take out any single thread and the entire system unravels.

Having said that, new and fresh ideas come and go as the host organizations attempt to make the celebration successful for the long run.

So far it seems to be working and as long as I believe wildlife, hunting and fishing are holding their own I will continue to make my donation and maybe I'll get lucky again.

DC
 
WORKNMAN,

I'll gladly take advantage of the opportunity that should be given to Utah residents...applying for permits that we've ALL contributed to create. Stealing 200 outta the pool AGAINST MAJORITY OPINION is a screw-job, sorry.

Against majority opinion being key of course...SFW had all the RAC committee members bought, paid for, and drinking the Kool-Aid before those votes.

I'm well aware of the need for conservation dollars, I'm not an idiot. The idiots would be everyone who believes SFW's claims that the Expo tags give "everyone a fair chance." It's your chance to draw the tag you've been waiting for!!

What a joke. Even as bad as Utah's draw odds are, the "best" and "most fair" way for Utah residents to get OUR tags is by putting those Expo tags back where they belong...in the UDWR draw.
 
As with all worth while contributions, how many of you know what percent of your donations (permit applications) go to the final result of improving wildlife IN UTAH (10% or 90% or somewhere in between). I don't know and probably most of you don't know. Is most of the money going to management and other fees. These are the question we should be asking this group for them to be getting these many special permits.
 
The tags are made possible by the DWR and the Wildlife Board, ask them if they think the tag investment is worthwhile.

Your guess and mine are just that, a guess. A guess based on our individual bias. Ask the seller if it's satisfied with the return it's investment.

Most of us wouldn't give 200 limited and highly desirable "anythings" if you we believed it was for a net loss?

Call me naive but I don't believe the DWR, the DNR or the Wildlife Board would waste the scarce resource if they did not believe they were getting a good value for their investment. Just my bias but it's the bias I use to draw my conclusion.

DC
 
Unless I am wrong, 0% of the application fee goes to wildlife. I believe it has been stated on this site many times that the application fees barley covers the cost of the drawing. The draw of the Expo, as it was explained in the central RAC that I attended, was that Utah would benefit from all of the added tourism. None of the tags 200 convention tags raise money for wildlife. The tags help draw people to the Expo and the conservation groups who put on the Expo make money. If the conservation groups then decide to donate money to the DWR they can but they are not under any obligation to do so. IF the conservation group involved in the Expo wanted to raise money for wildlife and guarantee the money would go to wildlife they could open the drawing to everybody and add surcharge for wildlife ($20.00 would do it). If all of the people who put in for the Expo tags added $20 to their applications and they allowed anybody (not just those in attendance) to apply than Utah Wildlife would benefit from the 200 Tags. More than 90% of the people at the Central RAC I attended were against the 200 tags. As it is, the Expo tags help the conservation organizations draw people to their Expo so they can make money. JMO
 
It is about 10 pm. Started working today at 4:00 a.m.


just finished a 7 hour drive. DWR biologists asked me to help them secure wildlife habitat, that in essence is over a 1 million acre wildlife system. Got the deal done tonight. Total cost will be over $185,000. Lots of sportsmen will draw tags in 10 or 15 years from this project. 90% of the sportsmen will never know about this deal, how it got done, who did it, how it got paid for, they will just magically draw a permit one day. the Three DWR hard working biologists said tonights project just made their Thanksgiving weekend, and were very grateful. thanks to all teh Expo attendees, this and many, many other projects are completed, that otherwise wouldn't be if left to the government. Even for those DWR guys who want to, there are many things that only private groups can get done.

bison will be transplanted again into teh Book Cliffs this winter. Hundreds of hours went into that effort, and tens of thousands of dollars.

Turkey feeding, buying winter range, providing emergency funds for water for deer, habitat improvement for elk, transplants for other species, are just a few of the projects funded with Expo dollars.

Another Expo funded project: A landowner had over 1,200 mule deer in his fields in Central utah. Because of some crazy state and federal laws, the Government's hands were tied, and by law, the Feds were going to Fine this landower a lot of money, he was IRATE, as we all would be. He was not only feeding the deer, but was about to get hammered for a fence line issue from a problem 20 years ago.

We were able to provide this landowner with $15,000 to solve the short term emergency problem with the Feds and we are helping him with a long term solution. The deer didn't get shot in the fields. He said, "Don, lots of people bithc aobut you and SFW, but let tell em all, you guys do 1,000 more percent than all the whinners, tell all teh sportsmen thanks for the private funds, we like the deer, we just can't feed 1,200 of them and then get fined by the Goverment to do it."

Another problem solved with Expo funds.

As worknman put it, there is a HEck of a lot more tags today than there were 20 years ago, it has come by some great efforts by the DWR, and lots of efforts by the organized sportsmen groups.

The Utah legislature used to only provide the DWR with about $200,000 in Sales tax money. In 2009 that number was about $6.5 million. Part of the reason the legislature is willing to fund so muhc money for wildlfie now, is they see the economic benefits, many attended the Expo, and love it.

Instead of sportsmen being considered, stupid, blood thisty slobs, the legislature can see some great positive things, and the Expo is a marqee event to bring that mesage home.

so, thanks to all those who attend the expo. It is a fun event, There is a lot going on, it is an opportunity to invest into the future of hunting, 216 sportsmen will have world class permits in 2010, but thousands will draw permits in the future from the Expo attendees investments and the sportsmen groups efforts.
 
Let's see, 1/2 of the 5% comes from the nonresident pool, dropping it from 10% to 7.5% og the limited entry ot OIL tags, a 25% reduction in nonresident tags available to the regular draw.


The other 1/2 comes from the resident pool, dropping bit from 90% to 87.5% of the tags, a 2.8% drop in tags available.


Need I say more about who's odds are hurt worse?

Guess it's already stated why the in person validation favors those who can just drive there for a day's outing....
 
Seriously, Don,

How about buy a membership or attend in person to validate...You would sell lots of memberships, but it wouldn't be mandatory for those who attend, still attendence incentive.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-25-09 AT 09:04AM (MST)[p]I don't have any pitty for Non-Resident's who must travel to SLC to validate their tag applicatiopn. These tag's are for Utah hunt's, that many resident's must wait 12-20 years to draw. I have so many friend's that live in Utah that have 10 plus bonus point's for big game tag's. That's 10 year's of not drawing. When Montana, Idaho, Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada,and Oregon give up 200 tag's, we'll talk. Until then be grateful of your opportunity. Hell, if they did give up 200 tag's I would have no problem traveling there to apply. It's a fun weekend to be around people that have the same love of big game hunting as I do.
 
I hope the other states you mention don't start requiring out of state hunters to travel to their state to apply for some of their tags. After all, they are their tags. Paint the picture however you want but the Expo tags benefit the expo groups. Also, Utah has more convention/conservation tags than all of those states combined. The 200 tags were taken out of the regular draw. The tags were originally available to anybody who wanted to appply in the draws but they now require people to travel to SLC to apply.

Few Questions for Don Peay:

Could SFW, MDF, RMEF used any of the money held by the groups from the conservation tags (I believe it is called emergency money) to accomplish the same projects you listed? I am talking about the 90% funds that are required to be returned to the state. All of the accounting I have seen shows a large portion held by the organizations for emergency wildlife projects. How much money do the convention groups make and what percentage goes to wildlife? Will you ever provide the real odds for the Expo as promised many times? Would you support opening the convention tags to everybody who wants to apply and adding a monetary surcharge with a mandate that all of the money raised goes to a wildlife fund to support wildlife habitat?

I think a $20.00 charge added to the application fee and allowing everybody to apply would guarantee more money for wildlife.

Don: I have also sent you a PM. Please respond.
 
I'm from Idaho and dread the day we start auctioning as many tags as Utah does through that Expo (or anything else). I've been there and it's kind of fun. An awfully lot of the exhibitors don't have nearly the hunting experience and expertise as my own family and friends.

However, my youngest son and oldest grandson thought they had a grand time.

The purpose of the expo is to make a profit....a profit that will benefit the group (and their friends) or groups who organized it. There will be (almost) zero additional hunting opportunities for the average guy (which is the only thing that will enable hunting to continue to exit into the future for my son and grandson) as a result of the Expo.


Within the shadows, go quietly.
 
Mr. Peay,
After reading 2lumpy's reply it got me thinking. I will not only drive six hundred miles to validate I will also enjoy the booths. I realize I shouldn't let my personal bias against a couple of the vendors rob the honest guy?s working hard to make a successful affair. I too have every gadget known to man- kind related to hunting. However, as said you never know when something might catch your eye. Don, my question to you; why is everything so top secret when it comes to accounting for the monies generated at this event? I know, you come on and offer a quick list of some projects completed or in the works. I'm aware of the dollars sent south for emergency water delivery. A job that was mandatory this year. You also talk about projects that the average sportsman will never know about. Why is it so difficult for, if not impossible for ?Joe Six-pack? to see an actual hard copy of the financial accounting and drawing odds for this event? This is a public resource and therefore the public should be informed 100%. Please do not be a politician on this question. A simple ?you can't handle the truth? will suffice if that is the case.
 
Utah 400elk,

some of the projects we complete can use the Conservation permit funds, some can't.

The Utah deer project i tried to be brief with, couldn't be.

I looked through an email from Sunday night, Oct 11, 9:30 pm between Doug Messerly S. region DWR supervisor, Sam Carpenter, local sportsmen, and myself, lots of reasons why the normal money couldn't be used.

But even with teh Conservation Permit money and Expo money, there are still a lot of projects we get asked to do, not enough money.

But a lot has been done. And two gb22, here is some hard data. Go back as someone suggested to 1985, there were about 1,000 limited draw/once in a lifetime permits. IN 2009, there are closer to 4,500. that is 3,500 MORE opportunities each year, that in my mind is substantial.

And, as pointed out briefly, the conservation groups working with the feds and DWR have been a big part of teh reason for the increase in permits, and even more future hunts.

Here is another question i want answered, how much more wildlfie would there be in Utah today, had the first deer expo back in teh 80s survied, and the money for 20 years was well invested ? We do know 100,000 deer hunting opportunities have been lost, each year, forever.

Conch, the reason i come on here and do projects - a few of them, is that is my part of the job. Take the money and get good projects done. so, it is easy for me to talk about, i now them.

As i have explained, the Expo is a pretty complicated event - Exhibitors, advertising, auctions, sponsorships, application fees.

From the best i understand, about 10% of the application fees cover the direct costs of the application portion of the Expo.

So, 90% of the application fees are gross profits.

YOu can then ask teh question, what percent of the gross profits go to otehr expo costs, like advertising, expo hall rental costs, security, etc.

Of that, SFW, MDF, and WSF split the "profits".

I have explained what SFW had done with some of their "profits" you can ask the other groups have done with theirs.

In the end, the Wildlife Board and DWR asks for information, the Expo partners give it to them in public meetings.

the DWR then makes recommendations and the Board votes yes or NO, after public input.

I spend some time on MM to provide information.

I don't have all the data, don't have all the answers.

Obviously some sportsmen like the Expo and participate, others choose not to.

for 20 years i have spent a lot of time and effort working for betterment of wildlfie in Utah and the west. some like it, some don't.
 
EF,

thanks for your questions, after 15 public meetings, the Expo turned out the way it turned out.

now one for you.

Would you rather have 100% of 1,000, or 90% of 4,000 ?

Or would you rather have 100% of 500 ?

The real legitimate question is this:

Does the Expo tags, the Conservation tags and the investment of them overall and over the long term help keep populations where they are - overcome all the downward pressures as the Human populaiotns doubles or triples, or even on a better note, does the investment increase wildlife populations and hunting opportunities for the public ?

The people in the decisions of power believed the answer is positive, thus they voted for it.

Happy Thanksgiving to all
 
Don,
I know the money does wildlife good, and there's more to it than tags. Also the event is a fun and cool thing to go to. I was just pointing out they took a disproportionate percentsage of tags from the nonresident side, and made it nonresident unfriendly with the in person validation.

Whatever the percentages are, nonresidents need a 33% increase in tags just to break even if you take the narrow minded tags availible view.

I also suggested a membership in lieu of the hundreds of dollars (most does not go to your cause) and travel time it would take a nonresident to attend. Maybe a non resident of SFW one for even more money? I bet $100 would fly.

Plus, look at the tanks of gasoline it would save, isn't energy conservation good for wildlife? :)
 
http://wildlife.utah.gov/rules/R657-55.php

Mr. WORKMAN it may not be a bad idea to read the above link before you go HIGH CASE YELLING to all of us about the Wonders of the 195/5 (200 Convention tags) money being all about wildlife.

Not a single penny is mandated for wildlife....please read the link.

Thank you.


As far as 'going back to 1985'.....

Pick any single state with in our Rocky Mountain region and you will vividly read/see that every-every single state has exploded with more--more--more tags......without the need for Con. org tag$.

A couple of those Rocky Mountain states have Leftover tags RIGHT now......with only a max of very minimal Bid/auction Governor type tag$.

So please do not be mis-led by smoke and mirrors into believing Con. org tags have saved the hunting community....only in Utardville.

There is a huge gap and difference between 'Expo Funds' and the money raised being for Wildlife from the 195/5 Convention Tags.....smoke and mirror all ya want.

All--please have a safe and enjoyable Thanksgiving Holiday.

Robb
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-25-09 AT 07:08PM (MST)[p]It kind of funny that the only way you can get a hunt at the EXpo is to be there, Seem it marketed toward the hunters who HAVE alot of Money not just run of the mill hunters who make the most hunters.


"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
 
>LAST EDITED ON Nov-25-09
>AT 07:08?PM (MST)
>
>It kind of funny that the
>only way you can get
>a hunt at the EXpo
>is to be there, Seem
>it marketed toward the hunters
>who HAVE alot of Money
>not just run of the
>mill hunters who make the
>most hunters.
>
>
>"I have found if you go
>the extra mile it's Never
>crowded".
 
know a few guys who drew tags last year who didn't have sh*t to do with any wildlife org or have "alot of money" doesn't cost that much to go validate anyway
 
It cost a lot to validate if you live 1100 miles away.

Like someone else said I would be happy to pay some kind off fee to not be there in person. Utah likes money so much I bet they could double the money they bring in this way.
 
Utah could double their money but the conservation organizations runing the expo would not get anything so it will never happen.

Don please answer my PM either way.
 
I think it is clear that the people in charge realized that much more money could be spread around the local ecomony (airfare-$250, lodging-$200, meals-$150, transportaton-$120, etc.) if they forced you to validate in person instead of via internet or something similar for a minimal fee of $20. Believe it or not, I'm fine with that.

However, the part that does bother me is the amount of these tags that were taken from the non-resident drawing. Non-residents have to now pay through the nose for a chance at a tag that used to cost a minimal application fee to the UDWR. Not to mention, we have no idea how these non-resident tags are being re-distributed since we have no draw odds on the drawings or resident vs. non-resident drawing winners.

I am for full disclosure on the drawing odds. The odds are horrible, worse than the UDWR drawing, or else they would be public knowlege to help bolster attendance at the Expo.
 
I guess it all depends on how you look at the odds. I get two chances in the DWR draw. I get 200 chances in the Expo draw.
It took me 20 years to draw a elk tag in the DWR draw. Still no luck in the Expo draw in two years. The verdict is still out on which has better odds.

I hate the 400 mile round trip to validate. I doubt they would ever drop the validation requirement. They need the attendance to sell the booths.
 
I would guess you live close, Me I live in So. Ca so yep it would cost a bunch of money to run up to SLC,(12hr drive one-way) I would love to come up just for the EXPO but money talks and the rest walks.
after 3 hunts out-state it kind of hard to tell the wife I'm headed off to SLC for another hunting thing.
But hey if they ever get to the point of letting hunters to throw money(buying draw tickets) in the draw for hunts and NOT have to be in the building. I will send them some of mine.

Or until I quit drawing out-state hunts and it the only trip of the year.


"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
 
I hear Jet Blue and Southwest have specials on airline flights right now. I bet you could get a round trip from Cali for around $150 or less.
 
One of the reasons for in person validation is to show politicians at the capital the importance of quality animals in the state. When they see 30,000 people come to an expo and spend money in the state it does get their attention. It then helps in getting tax money to help with wildlife management.
 
You all make interesting points. I however am going for one reason,,,,, I MUST HAVE MORE TURKEY JERKY!!! I bought some at the last convention and have been craving it ever since. I pounded a 1 pound bag in about an hour. Freak my mouth is watering now... Here I come turkey jerky!!


Pointer
www.jglowblinds.com
 
Back to the original question asked: Odds for the 200 tags.

I find it hard to believe that no one has this info. All you need is "How many tags were sold for each hunt?"

Some one has this info. Why is it not public info? It should be.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
>Back to the original question asked:
> Odds for the 200
>tags.
>
>I find it hard to believe
>that no one has this
>info. All you need
>is "How many tags were
>sold for each hunt?"
>
>Some one has this info.
>Why is it not public
>info? It should be.
>
>txhunter58
>
>venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore
>I am)

Back from long trip. I see posts that covered a lot of interesting subjects including about the fine turkey jerky.

I can not imagine the NWTF holding a raffle and not releasing the results including number of entrants so odds are public. Usually the raffle drawing is done in front of an audience.

Member-supported organizations usually release all sorts of details on where money came from and where was spent. Members expect this and officers are proud to show the fiscal responsibility.

The essence of the answer to why the odds are not released is could be that this specific conservation organization operates more like a private foundation. That is a strategy that works very well for them in negotiating and horse-trading to achieve their goals to support improved hunting quality in Utah.

Someone noted Montana has had success. Probably hard to compare various states when looking at big game population changes the last 20 years. That means is hard to give appropriate credit where credit is due or to be skeptical of claims of importance.

For sure, Montana has had success even with 100s of hungry wolves and only having a dozen or so tags removed from the public draw to support highest-bid auctions and raffles. Could Montana had had even more success with sheep and goats if adopted the Utah model? Could Utah have had similar success with deer if adopted the Montana model? Is Colorado better by focusing on elk quantity rather than trophy elk opportunities?

Comes down to what you want for yourself and others that will follow you.

As for my "raffle win optimization" project that led me to post in the first place, I did compare raffles around the West where odds are released and have my 2010 plan in place.

Good luck in the draws, auctions and raffles and thanks to all of you that support various conservation efforts with your money and time. Hunt safe.
 
SO: who has the numbers info on the drawings last year, and will they release the info?

If not, why not??????? What is the big deal?

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
OK guys, I heard this from a "reliable" source. Tiger Woods was going to deliver the odds report the other night, and he was the victim of the Oddsinatizis. And now he won't divulge the info.......

Plausible as any other theory.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-01-09 AT 07:14AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Dec-01-09 AT 06:54?AM (MST)

Maybe there at Area 51, Maybe there in Fort Knox. Maybe there laying on a Little grassy knoll in Dallas Texas. Maybe someone should just ask? (FYI MM) The sky is really not falling!!
 
The answer will be revealed when the Mayan Calender runs out in 2012...

How can one make a decision as to if hundreds of dollars of travel money is worth it based on nothing? The travel cost is revelant too...

Maybe they don't want the data known to either hide how the tags takeen from the regular draw are used to support a smaller party than they told/sold DWR on, or they want to hide how poor your odds are to get more people in and are selling lots... Who knows, maybe the shadow? :)
 
everybodys sure worried about the draw odds. there not that hard to figger out...if 30thousand people show up,the henrys deer tag is 30thousand to 1...pahvant and the other top elk tags and once in a lifetime tags are gonna be close to that also. but i'll bet some of the turky tags are a lot better odds then that...not great odds for the good tags, but its one more chance for them.
 
The odds, obviously, aren't great. Some guys have good luck and draw a tag (or even two) but the vast, vast majority won't.

Odds are better in the UDWR draw, especially if you've invested time and money in points. Which is exactly why it's such a screw-job that SFW takes these 200 tags right out of Utah resident's hand who HAVE played the point game.

Other western states take a maximum of around 20 tags out of the public draw for auctions, raffles, etc. Most are under 20.

Utah is well into the hundreds...these 200 Expo tags are a big chunk, but definitely not the only chunk.

Utah residents should be up-in-arms about this crap...and they were, actually. But SFW doesn't care. They "passed" through the RAC's anyway.

And to Don...hey, we all know you work hard, and we all appreciate the effort. But you're not the only one who works long hours, pal. Many of us do...wildlife related or not, we're all busting our humps.
 
I like many who frequent MM have worked for years in conservation groups, doing projects, trying to make hunting better, more quality and opportunity. We love to hunt and fish. Conservation groups do make a difference. There are checks and balances. Projects are approved by DWR and wildlife board. We are investing in our future. No there isn't a perfect group. Some groups have a tract record of getting things done. It seems like the same 10-15% of sportsmen go support banquets and do projects to help wildlife. 80% of people who hunt do nothing to help make things better. They just buy a license and believe it's their right to hunt. Many believe there will always be a surplus of animals to hunt. "These tags are taking opportunity away from the general draw." I don't believe this. This makes people choose to have a chance of getting a good/great tag you need to put your money where your mouth is. You need to support wildlife. Everyone can apply for a hunt for 5 dollars. I agree, non res are going to spend more in travel and lodging. I just don't see much future in hunting 20-30 years down the road without conservation groups. The state and Fed government will not fund much.
 
huntin100,

We all understand the need for conservation, and the dollars that fund it.

The 200 tags ARE taking opportunity away from the general draw...if you don't believe that, you've got blinders on.

Take 20 tags and auction them off...SFW will raise just as much money for conservation, or likely much more, and keep the other 180 in the general draw.

But it's not about the conservation dollars, obviously, or that is exactly what they'd do...hell, they already do!!

Obviously the Expo is not all about conservation dollars...it's about tourism, etc, etc, which is fine.

But the bottom line...SFW stole the 200 tags from the general draw AGAINST public opinion. SFW DOES NOT own the wildlife in the state of Utah or in any other state, as much as they might like to think they do. They don't own the tags, either.

Can anyone honestly tell me that these 200 tags went to SFW in good faith? That the hunters in those RAC meetings approved of taking the tags?? Anyone that was there could see it plain as day...Utah sportsmen were flat out AGAINST taking the tags. The RACs were set up to support public opinion. What a joke.

I don't have anything against SFW or any other conservation group...it may seem otherwise, but I don't. I understand the need and I appreciate all the work that goes in. I think anyone with a brain does...

...but that doesn't me we have to like the fact that SFW took the tags in the way they did, or that we have to believe their ridiculous claims of "the best chance" to draw a tag. If it was the best, I'd think the odds would be posted. It's not the best chance.

I've said it 100 times...the BEST chance is to put those tags back in the general draw. If SFW really needs the cash, take 20 and auction them off. Let the whiners cry that hunting is only for the high-dollar guys...money talks. The "regular" guys like us that can't buy 'em in the auction will draw 'em in the UDWR draw, as it should be.
 
No more politician type answers. Are you guys running for Congress or something?

If someone ask you what the draw odds are?

don't answer with how many buffalo you have or start talking about turkey feeders, and 80% of hunters do nothing but complain.

That was not the question.

Here is some help for you

Can we see the draw odds? Yes or no

If you answer yes - When can we see them
If you answer NO - Why not

Thats all people are asking.
 
>There are
>checks and balances. Projects
>are approved by DWR and
>wildlife board. We are
>investing in our future.

Not in this case. The organizations involved are not required to spend one cent of money raised with Expo tags on wildlife. How do you know what you are really investing in? You going to take Don Peay's word for it?!

>This makes
>people choose to have a
>chance of getting a good/great
>tag you need to put
>your money where your mouth
>is. You need to
>support wildlife. Everyone can apply
>for a hunt for 5
>dollars.

Yep, everyone can apply for $5. Sure would be nice if that money was actually going to work for wildlife. Show me how that money is being spent, since you apparently know the answer.
 
Craig: +1 +2 +3

Beardog: Can't people buy more than one chance? If I want to buy 1000 chances ($5000) for one hunt, can't I? Kind of screws up figuring the odds doesn't it, unless you know how many were sold for each tag? It also gives you info on hunts that might have a better chance. That is why people spends months studying the odds for the regular drawings.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
I have nothing whatsoever to do with SFW or any of the other expo sponsers for that matter, however, I'll enlighten everyone. You can't see the Expo draw odds because they suck.Think about it! If they showed the actual draw odds the amount of application fee's would drop dramatically.They ain't going to let that happen. Like it or not, 200 people are going to draw those tags....it might as well be you.
 
Guys...I'm not against the SFW or any other group that raises money for wildlife....as long as it goes to wildlife and not in someones pocket.... preaching they are doing all this hard work for the sake of wildlife. If it don't pay out....why the heck is Mr. Peay chasing every state he can to set up this program....even in Alaska. God knows we don't need more help screwing up this state.
But what really burns my butt......is the fact they have taken most of these so called 195/5 permits from the non-resident pool. Yes, I'm ticked.....because they pulled one of the desert sheep permits that would have been a shoo-in for me to draw one of these days......since I have max. non-resident preference points. Last account I had...there were only 16 non-residents with max. points......so, my odds were getting better every year....but now....I'm in the same pool as everyone else.....plus not the best areas available for non-residents either. So, I'll probably die without ever drawing a Utah permit....just because of this greed for the almighty dollar.
I think I've already donated quit a bit......when's my turn outside the barrel?
I think we've all had a pretty good con job on this whole deal...especially since no one can cough up the stats.
The real question.....does anyone know or care...just screw the non-resident and listen to him whine.

A ticked off non-resident!
 
They took 25% of the nonresident tags...hitting nonresident draw odds almost an order of magnitude worst that it hits resident draw odds. Tag numbers due to whatever this raffle brings in would have to increase 33% just for nonresidents to break even in the regular draw.

The low ticket price means locals can get in cheap. That's needed for public support.

The in person does filter the nonresidents to those who can spend hundreds of dollars just to walk in...More likely to spend big bucks at the event...We'll let those ones in on the tags:)

I'm willing to bet that nonresidents don't get anywhere near half the tags, so they are cutting into the nonresident tags...
 
Non-residents had 5 tags added that residents could not draw in 2009. Prior to those 5 tags, non-residents were drawing around 10% of all tags if I recall correctly. If the 200 tags were taken directly from the non-resident draw pool...Obama must be in charge of this redistribution...ha ha.
 
txhunter, these aren't raffle tags. you can only put in on each one once. so the only thing thats gonna mess up my 30,000 to one shot on my henrys deer tag is if 40,000 people show up this year to put in for it.
 
This 30,000 in attendance number????

Ya folks got any 'hard numbers' as to the actual yearly attendance?

My understanding is that it was big the first year around 15,000 in attendance and it has slid every year since to a lower attendance numbers.......under 10,000 paid attendance last year.

WSF moving to Reno this 2010 will have more in attendance than in SLC and not have to split the booty by 3.....

I don't see the relationshiop between paid attendance and the ODDS for the 195/5 tags........

Robb
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-02-09 AT 05:59AM (MST)[p]>txhunter, these aren't raffle tags. you
>can only put in on
>each one once. so the
>only thing thats gonna mess
>up my 30,000 to one
>shot on my henrys deer
>tag is if 40,000 people
>show up this year to
>put in for it.

You are indeed correct. Thanks for straightening me out.

The issue still remains: which tags have 10,000 applicants and which have 10.

Craig asked for a yes/no answer. Since we know that Don is reading these posts and is silent on the issue, I guess we can assume that the answer is NO. Unfortunately, looks like we will not be getting an answer to "Why not".


txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-02-09 AT 07:39AM (MST)[p]BTW the 25% taken of the nonresdient tags may be really worse. They can take one tag from any hunt with two. So for the really primo hunts, sheep, Henry deer, etc...They can take half the tags, make up for it with one less turkey tag or something...:)


Half the really primo tags to maybe get more of the right people to attend the party??? How can that be right? Wonder how all the patient nonresidents in the top pool* feel?


*I hate points systems
 
EVERYONE should feel like akdan...everyone. He understands because he's in the perfect situation to understand. Screwed by SFW and their tag-stealing.

Huntin100...can you honestly continue to believe the 200 tags leaving the general draw don't hurt applicants??

I'll say till the day I die (maybe ;-)), I know SFW does a lot of good. I appreciate all of it. We need them and groups like them. But this, the Expo tags, is a joke.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-02-09 AT 11:55AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Dec-02-09 AT 11:51?AM (MST)

The tags are public tags. Yes they are. They are going to the public. Most of the tags go to people with out a lot of money. Many go to hunters from small towns. A few do go to guys that have money. However, most of the tags go to ave guys thatlike to hunt, and don't mind spending some of their money to help out wildlife, hunting, etc. Do these ave guys/gals that want to help out deserve a chance at these tags? I would say they do. Like I said 80% of sportsmen/women don't do anything for the future of hunting and wildlife. Why not reward those who are will to help out a little. My opinion. Your free to disagree.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-02-09 AT 12:56PM (MST)[p]Don't have a lot of time. I know I will have poor grammer and mispelled words. I just don't believe "SFW/Conservation groups are stealing tags" in the long run. Or short term.

How many loss opportunity tags are lost by preditors?

How many tags are lost from lack of winter range/development?

How many tags are lost from non productive habitat?

How many tags are lost from no state and federal funding for transplants?

How many tags are lost, when public access is blocked to hunting areas?

How many tags are lost from exploding wolf/Griz populations?

How many tags are lost from anti hunting agendas?

How many tags are lost from migration routes over highways?

How many tags are lost from ranchers shooting deer and elk from damaging crops?

How many tags are lost when deer/elk need to be fed, and the only one who will write a check to get things started is SFW?

How many tags will be lost from poor planning for future projects?

How many tags will be lost if we have anti hunters making the decisions for wildlife management and hunting?
About 15 years ago in Utah it was happening. In fact part of our license money revenue, was funding non game animals.

Conservation groups have helped save tags for sportsmen in every area I have mentioned.

A few thoughts about loosing tags. I wonder how hunting will be in 20 years? Who is fighting the battles?

Got to run.
 
Nice Spin Greg...............

You forgot Road Kills.....

Most of us heard this spin 15 years ago......kinda baits the hook for the in 20 years from now.....

Robb
 
Great points re why tags can shrink.

Curiously, Montana does not seem to have gone to heck in handbasket the past 3 years without an Expo or in the past 20 years without having 100s of premium tags redistributed from the regular (no need to be in-person) draw to razzle dazzle auctions and raffles.

Assuming is perfectly legal to hide the odds related to public tags, not sure why hiding the Expo odds is so crucial to the mission of saving wildlife habitat, etc...
 
I truley hope they don't ever post the odds! what a way to screw everything up! first off its not that hard to figure out which tags are easier to get. and if they post the odds do you really think your going to get that easy tag now that the whole world knows them? and I also hope they never do away with making you validate in person. the odds go to crap after that!
 
Guess my main problem is that they take such a disproportionate chunk of tha already skimpy 10% nonresident quota. If they would take the 5% show cut before giving the nonresident 10% cut, I would be totally cool with sacrificing a vfew tags in the name of conservation fundraising. Someone said nonresidents are getting 10% or so of the show tags anyway, so all order would be kept in the distribution of tags.
 
I have nothing to do with the Expo. I have volunteered in the past. I don't have as much time these days.
Don't know the odds. If I remember the posted past expo odds before. The odds are not good, I'm quite sure. I don't think you need to be very smart to know the odds are not in your favor.

I have a friend who has drawn 3 tags in two years. I have not drawn any. I will probably not draw an expo tag.

Outdoors, About Montana. Last year I was lucky enough to draw my dream hunt. A Montana bighorn sheep tag. It was near the Bob Marshall. Sun River herd. Elk counts are pathetic. Cow calf ratios 5 per 100. Most the elk winter on the refuge. Populations have severe declines. A local taxidermist and guide who has hunted/guided the areas for 50+ yrs knows the problems are wolves and griz. So does the DWR. Everything isn't great in Montana.

Anyways, Everyone has there right to complain. If most of the expo tags went to the rich. I would complain. This isn't the case.
Good luck.
 
One quick question. Someone said the expo is moving to Reno next year? Is this true? Whose supplying the tags if this is the case? I'm not saying I'm for or against the tags for the draw, but please say it isn't utah thats given away the tags in Reno.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-02-09 AT 02:59PM (MST)[p]I have nothing to do with the expo. I have volunteered in the past some. I have no agenda. I'm sure the odds are poor.

Outdoors. I lucked out and hunted sheep last year in MT. The elk populatios are terrible in the Bob Marshall area, because of wolves and Griz populations. Local guides,outfitters, and the DWR know of the problem. Everything is not good in MT. Cow calf counts were 5 calves per 100 cows. Very few elk were checked in at the game stations.

We all have the right to our opinions. If the majority of expo tags went to the rich I would complain. This is not the case. Ave guys get most the tags. Everyone can only apply for a hunt once. Good luck if you choose.

I didn't think my previous post went through. Sorry.
 
huntin100,

You seem like a smart guy, and one that's willing to help out wildlife/conservation groups. I'm sure you are both of those, and that's great.

Some on this thread might question SFW's accolades or accomplishments...I don't. I have no problem with SFW as a whole, I've said time and time again that I appreciate the effort, and I really do. I don't have the time or funds to build habitat, etc, so I'm glad we have groups like SFW willing to do the work.

I also understand that it can't be done for free. I've got no problem with fund-raising efforts for SFW and the other similar organizations.

Problem for me is simple. Utah sportsmen DID NOT want these 200 tags taken from the general draw. DID NOT. And it wasn't even close...those RAC meetings were one-sided. Nobody wanted the tags to go to the Expo.

They went.

RACs were set up to support public opinion. They failed miserably. I'm no conspiracy-theorist, but it sure seemed odd that the RAC committee members were the ONLY ones in those meetings that "wanted" the tags to go to the Expo. Why? Your guess is as good as mine.

No good.
 
One more quick note...huntin100, I'm glad your buddy has drawn 3 tags in 2 years at the Expo. And I honestly am...I'm sure he's had a great time on the hunts, and that's what it's all about.

But what about akdan (above), and the others like him? He's been playing the game for YEARS...applying as a non-resident for his sheep, building points. Knowing that his persistence would pay off because Utah's system would allow him to eventually draw that precious "bonus" tag set aside for max-pointers. Well, because of SFW's little tag steal, that "bonus" tag is gone, and chances are good akdan will literally NEVER draw his tag.

Not good.
 
All I can say is I will travel up there again from Texas in hopes of winning a raffle tag and spending about 1000.00 in SLC on hotel, food, flight, booze along with 250.00 on the raffle .....Sooooooo wish me luck!!! (wishful positive thinking:)!!)
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-02-09 AT 04:13PM (MST)[p]Hey guys. I have a quick question? I have foudn the info about the expo online. I am planning on attending for the first time this year. Can someone explain how I go about applying for the tags and what needs to be done before I arrive? Im excited to see all the expo has to offer!

Andy
 
Thank you Backinthegame.....at least someone has a little understanding/sympathy for the poor non-resident. You hit the nail on the head of why I'm so ticked off.
I've probably donated more time and money than most when it comes to fundraisers and donations for these wildlife projects.....( without ever purchasing a Gov. Tag ). That's what sportsmen are suppose to do....so, I have never bitched or complained about any......until now.
Nearly every western state has benefitted one way or another from these contributions and if you checked....I'm almost positive most of the monies came from out of state or out of state groups ....but the poor non-resident still takes it in the shorts.
I can remember when Colorado offered two (2) buck tags for non-residents....now you have the tag pimps working the system for that almighty dollar....plus the game dept. playing the money game on the drawings.
Utah....got lots of their money from FNAWS for their sheep programs (and the state has done good which I'm proud of). But two desert tags for non-residents is a joke when there are so many more available.
Montana ...some years don't give any male sheep tags to non-residents....other years they might give three with the most ever being five. And they have sheep dying instead of giving out more permits.
I use to think Nevada was the state to draw in.....but now they don't let non-residents apply in the good areas....just the cull areas....so, go figure.
Arizona got ticked of with USO and their lawsuit....so, they in turn took it out on the poor non-resident.....cut their tag quota's.
Wyoming is the only state that give the non-resident a fair shake.......and they don't have SFW (yet?)
We're all playing into the hands of the animal rights people and don't even see it coming. Everyone is complaining about the predation problem....who do you think...got all of these wolves and grizzly bears protected? Go figure.
I've vented enough....but thanks again backinthegame for taking up for a non-resident.

Still ticked off non-resident
 
akdan,
I agree it's not fair for non res imo. As you said it's not fair for non res in most other states. I'm 47 a Utah res and have not drawn one once in a life time tag yet.
Wyoming does have SFW. They have beening fighting the wolf and griz wars. THe wilderness/outfitter rule is a joke in Wyoming.

I agree. I apply for hunts in AZ,NV,CO,ID,WY,MT,NM. I'm dropping some states. Too expensive. I just dropped WY sheep this year. Hope you draw some where. Good luck.

Backinthegame I think we agree on a lot of things.
 
akdan...anytime my man. The Expo tags should be in the general draw, taking that big a chunk definitely makes a serious dent. A dent big enough for guys like you to really feel. And unfortunately, I'm sure you're not the only guy who's been hit.

huntin100...I'm sure we do agree on plenty. Good discussion.
 
So...For those of you feel the tags should go back to the regular draw...Anything that can be done? Letters to who? Ideas? Enough popular opinion mean anything? Sounds like they just ignored public input at the meetings held to say they did and just did it to us.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-03-09 AT 04:54AM (MST)[p]It is pretty obvious that they have no plans to publish the odds. The only inference that I can draw is that they are so bad, they don't want us to know. Makes me doubly sure that it is not worth my money/time to come to the expo. If I were coming anyway, sure I would put in. But if they are counting on those tags getting any more nonresidents to come, not working.

The only way they could accomplish getting more out of staters to come is if they designated all the tags they took away from us to go to only nonresidents. As I undertand it, out of the 200 tags, roughly 1/2 came from nonresident pools. I am sure that doesn't hold true across the board, but they have stated that 50% will come from nonresidents.

However, I would wager that nowhere near 50% of the tags given away go to nonresidents. So, we start with a possible 10% of the tags in the statewide drawing, and then they give more of those away to residents. I sure it makes residents happy, but even they should be able to see that is somehow unfair.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
The unfair part is how they take the tags, 50% come from the nonresident pool that starts out at onl;y 10%. I think "Cherry Picking" is OK within that half when they take the tags, or at least it sure seems to seem that they do.

The 10% nonresident draw of expo tags just tells you 10% of the purcharsers/attendees are nonrssident. True, it's a thing for all walks of life if you life close, but costs of traveling motels, flights, eating out and such make a pretty good filter for the low end nonresident:)
 
It's all about the benjamins.

The questions I want to know:

1. What are the draw odds? How many people are applying?

2. Where does the money go, and in what percentages? Who is held accountable? If it is to "help the wildlife", then why can't we see the balance sheet?


The reasons we will never get answers:

It's all about money. The guys at the top of each of these orgs make a lot. Many of them make percentages of what their group takes in. OF COURSE they want you to know about all the good they are doing. I'm sure many of us would mess our pants if we knew how much money they made off if it. It's called "administrative costs". Do they care about wildlife? I'm sure they do. But I have a hunch they care about their paycheck even more, and how much they get peayed.

You know why we'll never get the odds? Because then it is simple math to find out how much money went into it. We'd see that sportsmen dumped millions into this "wildlife fund", yet only a small percentage of that came out and actually hit the ground.

There will never be full accountability from the expo. It's about dollars.

That said, I'll probably still buy some of the tickets, just to give myself a chance at that wonderful hunt I wouldn't get otherwise. As a wise man once said, "so you telling me there's a chance?" I'll take it.

I absolutely do not agree with how it's run, but bottom line is I'm feeding the problem, because I have a hunting addiction.
 
RE: It's all about the benjamins.

Personally I like NOT knowing what the draw odds are, like already said it's just another chance for me to draw but the 2nd part is if there was a tag that only 10 people were on average putting in for and I was one of those 10, I would lose for sure the next time cause EVERYONE would see that ratio and the odds would fall through the floor.
So just be happy that you have another chance at a tag and they are fighting for HUNTERS, which we all are on this site, right???

By the way, you all sound like my wife by bit**'g and complaining about something just because you can. If you want to complain call a politican or a Anti-hunting group and waste their time.

Mntman

"Hunting is where you prove yourself"
 
RE: It's all about the benjamins.

LAST EDITED ON Dec-03-09 AT 01:38PM (MST)[p]>If you
>want to complain call a
>politican or a Anti-hunting group
>and waste their time.
>
>Mntman
>
>"Hunting is where you prove yourself"
>


I am sorry I wasted anyone's time.
 
RE: It's all about the benjamins.

Mntman,

"By the way, you all sound like my wife by bit**'g and complaining about something just because you can. If you want to complain call a politican or a Anti-hunting group and waste their time."

What? Nobody here is forced to read or respond to anything...you waste your time if you chose to read/respond to it.


Still, I can't see how its another chance to draw. It looks like robbing Peter to pay Paul to me, just another form of government redistruibution. They take tags from the regular draw to put them in the raffle. True it's a incentive to get more in the gate, more in the gate should mean more money to the cause, and in the end the cause claims there will be more wildlife so more tags can be issued, but there are a lot of assumptions necessary to like the chain all together and say the raffle tags will mean many more more reguar tags in the future..

Sorry for wasting your time.
 
RE: Expo permits.

I have a question that should be an easy answer, I just don't happen to know the answer.

1) Who decides how many permit are allotted to SFW for the expo? Is it the Governor? Is it the Big Game Board?

2)Are there any restrictions or accountability of those permits?
 

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