Elk drawing odds in Utah.

fishon · Jul 31, 2004

Unless you have max bonus points, your chance of drawing a limited entry elk tag in Utah is once in a lifetime at best.

With 1,272 permits approximatly 636 go to people with the most bonus points. That leaves about 636 for the remainder of the max bonus point holders as well as the rest of the applicants. after the max bonus point draw for elk there was about 37,639 people left for 636 permits, calculated out that gives you about a
1 in 59 chance of drawing an elk tag on average. Every year more people apply for elk so that number will probably increase.
unless utah does something drastically diffrent most people will never hunt l.e. elk in utah.

How do we fix this problem?

tony abbott

30inchbucks · Jul 31, 2004

I think limited entry rifle elk hunting needs to be moved out of the rut. Arizona, for example, has been doing it for quite a few years and have some very good elk hunting. They give out 300 to 400 rifle tags on 2 of their top units and still have 400 bulls killed on them every year. Utah needs to look at doing something like that to increase opportunity. It's really a no-brainer.

wileywapati · Jul 31, 2004

Tony
Glad to see you finally figured this out and are no longer
following generic SFW party lines. Did you get a reverse lobotomy when you left SFW??

There are a few way's to up opportunity without too much of an increase in harvest. Bowhunting would be a great suggestion
you could figure a very very generous harvest percentage of 20%
and add five hunters for basically every bull you want harvested

Move the any weapon hunt out of the rut perhaps to November and add a few tags this way as well. There needs to be an alternative to managing these hunts ( any weapon ) for 100% success. But at the same time if I or any other hunter will only get one shot at a L.E. elk tag in my life I or any other hunter would expect to hunt during the rut on a near 100% success hunt, you cant have it both ways.

One thing that must end is "guides" paying for tips on trophy bulls. How many four wheelers does a mature bull need to see
how many hours of film are guides buying from people to show their client ( shooters ) not hunters. If you are going to guide then guide don't have every person from Heber and Duchesne up on the Wasatch Unit chasing bulls all summer so you can provide your shooter with a 400 bull and the film crew with a nice check.

Sorry for the vent but it is frustrating to see you waffle like Bill Clinton by taking away elk hunting opportunity while at SFW
( AR-301 ) and a huge reduction in opportunity not only for bowhunters but all hunters and now to have a REVELATION that your young son ain't got a hope in hell of ever drawing a tag in Utah is really kind of Ironic don't ya think.

RACKMASTER · Jul 31, 2004

LUCK OF THE DRAW!
LUCKY PEOPLE HIT VERY HARD DRAWS ALL THE TIME!
I AM VERY LUCKY(SO LUCKY MY FRIENDS HATE ME AS I SPEAK! STILL
THEY WILL NOT WANT TO PUT IN AS A GROUP!).
SURE THE POINTS HELP,YOU GOT TO PUT IN AT LEASE 3 STATES PLUS YOUR HOME STATE EVERY YEAR TO EVEN HAVE A CHANCE TO HUNT THAT YEAR AND ALWAYS HAVE A BACK UP PLAN(over the counter tags) EVEN IF ITS AN LESS THEN
SOUGHT AFTER AREA! My 2nd year of applying outta state I drew
the paunsagunt any weapon, next year I applied in Wyoming and drew area 102 and the next two years after that! and two
antelope tags area 112!(those areas are about 8-10% draw odds)!
Last year hunted NV unit 10!(hated it).
This year I drew as follows: an CALIFORNIA ANY ELK(never had an Elk tag!) IN THE MARBLE MT!(should be thought of as once in a life time tag! and its FUNNY that I was not even shocked and kinda expected it!), Utah southern deer tag not a biggie or a for sure thing,and a CA X-1 deer tag agian
not a for sure thing and getting harder to draw only about half of the gang drew!
POINTS HELPS SURE! BUT I LIKE THE FEELING OF LUCK OF DRAW!
I only have 5 points for Utah elk, 2 deer(the waiting period sucks),NV I have 4 for Elk,Antelope!(getting very tired of giving away money to NV every year!).

Jack

PleaseDear · Jul 31, 2004

Max of 2 appl. in Group appl. alot of units had 4 tags drawn by Group appl. throw in 1/2 the tags to the max. point pool and that makes for slim to no odds after a group of 4 draws.

Very easily could split the LE units in half. These units are huge and most everyone of them has a Natural split going thru them, a forest service road or a paved road or a major drainage ect.

Make Bow Ed. mandatory for all bow LE tags before the appl. period.

Move the rifle hunt LE to Oct.

Get rid of the Conservation tag program and put those tags back into the draw. Leave the Gov. Auction tags and Sportsman tags available. They don't seem like many tags yearly but by unit over a 3-4 year time frame your looking at close to 25-35 folks that could have drawn.

Put a few more tags in the bow and the mzzldr draws to bring folks to those weapon choices thus making the rifle odds a little better.

Keep applying and like Jack said, be lucky!!

PleaseDear · Jul 31, 2004

that should read 25-35 folks per unit over a 3-4 year timeframe would have drawn if there was no more Conservation tags taken out and sold for big $$$$$ SFW saleries. Sorry typeing way to fast this morning.

bobcatbess · Aug 1, 2004

LET'S SEE,I'VE GOT TO BE NICE

TAKE EVERYBODY OUT OF THE LE DRAW THAT WOULD BE HAPPY WITH THE FIRST BULL THEY SEE OR HAPPY WITH A 300-320 AND MAKE THEM HUNT 300-320 (OPEN) AREA'S!!!

I'M SICK OF SEEING AND HEARING ABOUT PEOPLE SCREWING OTHER PEOPLES ODD'S UP JUST BECAUSE THEY WANT TO TAKE A BULL OF ANY SIZE,MAKE THEM HUNT THE HIGHLY COVETED GENERAL SEASON OPEN AREA BULL UNITS!!!

STOP CONTINUOUS AND OVERLAPPED HUNTING FROM MID AUGUST THROUGH JANUARY,THESE COW SLAUGHTERS ARE A REAL JOKE AND HUNTING THEM FOR 5 MONTHS IS BULL$HIT!!!

WHEN SOMEBODIES 95 YEAR OLD GRANDMA OR GRANDPA DRAWS A LE TAG,DON'T LET THE GREAT GRANDSON SHOOT THE BULL FOR THEM!!!

WHEN A HUNTER FINALLY DRAWS A LE TAG,OUTLAW LETTING HIM BRINGING 15 OF HIS BUDDIES WITH 15 ATV'S TO TOTALLY TEAR THE HELL OUTA THE TERRITORY!!!

REMEMBER,THINGS CAN GET WORSE,NOT EVERYBODY AND THEIR BUDDIES BUDDY CAN HUNT TROPHY ELK IN UTAH EVERY YEAR,IF THESE LE UNITS GET DECIMATED STRICTLY DUE TO GREED,I'M GONNA SAY:I TOLD YOU SO!!!

IF YOU WANT TO TAKE JUST A STINKY OLD RAGHORN, IMPROVE YOUR ODDS BY HUNTING OPEN AREA BULL UNITS,THEY AIN'T THAT HARD TO FIND,THEN BOTH ODDS GO UP!!!(HE,HE!!!)

THE ONLY bobcat NOT WANTING TO SEE THE QUALITY CHANGE JUST BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE GREEDY AND CAN'T STAND TO SEE A VERY FEW HAND FULL OF BULLS DIE OF OLD AGE!!!

schmalts · Aug 1, 2004

Right on bobcat!!! I think the best LE tags should go to the highest point holders. What the heck, why should some guy draw 2-3 times when another never does? The Bobcat says, you cant have both quality and quantity. If you feel like you are missing hunting chances go hunt Colorado for rags! put in for your UT LE and hope you draw, if you dont, go someplace else. I have put in for 10 years and not drawn AZ or UT but I hope my time comes. In the meantime i hunt other places until my turn comes. As far as kids go, if you think your kid needs to draw a monster bull tag to be happy dont even take him hunting because your ruining his expectations. kids can be happy with rags, cows, whatever and keep putting in for a LE. Maybe it is once in a lifetime, but when the time comes he will appreciate that 350 bull a lot more if he waited a while to get it. I totally disagree with any youth hunts in high quality units. there are plenty of opportunities to hunt, you just need to be willing to do it without shooting a 320+ bull from the road.

redfrog · Aug 1, 2004

here's my view on this. DOES ARE STATE KNOW HOW TO MANAGE WILDLIFE? ----NO----. Look at what happened to the fish lake area a few years ago. Look at the # of antlerless tags given for the South West Desert and the South West Desert North.
IT'S A LIMITED ENTRY AREA!!!! Why take so many elk? There is lots of feed for them all year round. In about six to eight years with out taking cows you would have many more large bull elk in that area. there would be enough cows to go around for those bulls if we were to quit taking cows. The bad thing is that this is going on in so many more areas. I have kids i want to be able to grow up and enjoy the chance of taking one of these fine animals that Utah keeps giving out. But if things keep going the way they are The limited entry elk hunt will end up once in a life time.

The other bad thing to all of this is SPIKE ONLY UNITS. I understant the piont of letting those bulls that make it though the hunt grow up to be big. But if we quit taking them look at the about of large bull we could end up with. Not only that but the amout of limited entry tags that could be given out.
But also look at the amout of genral bull elk tags given out...
I don't mean to piss off those of you who hund genral bull season. but if we made all of the elk a draw we could have alot of great elk hunting with many tags for those great elk in the futur.

Part of the problem with changing many of the things that many of us hunters think need to be change are never brought up. The D.W.R hold meeting for these things and many poeple don't come are even send letters to voice there veiw on these things. and i think if more did we might be able to get things reviewed and maybe even get things changed to keep a good hunting futur in are state.

But this is just how i veiw things.

thanks for reading my crap.

redfrog

ktc · Aug 2, 2004

Tony,

This is your recommendation to 'fix' the problem? Killing them won't fix the problem.

Why is quality so bad? You want your kids to hunt and so did my dad, but if this about your kids and not wildlife, then that is a selfish act for sure.

Maybe try Wyomings method, give 80% of the tags to top point holders. In a few years the top point holders will diminish.

Look at the deer herd Tony. Everyone wants monster mulies, but they are few and far between. We gripe because the deer herd sucks, but we gripe because the elk herd is too good. What the hell?

I sure as hell hope your 'new group' doesn't follow the lead you are proposing.

ktc

Deerlove · Aug 2, 2004

Here's a NEW Idea, pay for the tags upfront. This should take out about ten thousand tags a year. Ps, Dont give me bs that you cant afford it.

elk_horn · Aug 2, 2004

bobcat... I agree with what you are saying ... but how would you take people out of the draw that would shoot any bull???? How would you Identify them???? not sure how you would figure that out... and how are you going to stop someone from bringing friends to a hunt .. I dont think that would fly. That would definetly end up in a court battle. The one good solution woud be to move the 100% success rifle hunt out of the rut... Hunting should not be 100% success.. where is the challenge. Ive hunted elk for 30 yrs and many times come up empty handed...but I still keep going back. Thats why its called hunting. I love to hunt Elk and Deer with a bow with 12 to 20% success..Its a true hunt!

quickdrawkinker · Aug 2, 2004

Wileywapiti,

I like the way you're thinking--maybe I'm not the only one that thinks hunting is becoming way to "commercialized".
I also think that the DWR needs to collect a check with each application instead of a credit card--I know people ##### and moan about having to come up with the money, but if hunting is truley your passion then it shouldn't be that hard to save up for an entire year so you can apply, it's not like you lose the money if you don't draw. This would eliminate people that put in just for the hell of it. By doing this I guarantee that the max points would drop by 3 or 4 points over the next 5 years making it possible for someone to draw one of these coveted tags alteast once, possibly twice in a lifetime. If the DWR would do this ontop of changing the hunt dates, I think it would do wonders.

ktc · Aug 2, 2004

You make a good point and it is a viable option to try.

Now what is the economic impact to the dwr? That is the hurdle to leap on that one.

Wes · Aug 2, 2004

Simply increase the number of tags and do away with the bonus point system alltogether. Most hunters want the oppurtunity to hunt. Not all of us need to kill 400 point bulls to be happy.
Wes

sirfilbert · Aug 2, 2004

Why not leave the bonus points the way they are and increase the tags on a few units. I've heard for two years now at the RAC's from Jim Kaiporowitz(sp). that a large percentage of the LE units could take more tags. It's not every one that draws that shoots a 400 bull. How many were entered into the book last year? Probably not more than a handful. Turn down a 350 bull every 5 years, not me. If you want a larger bull than that hunt a CWMU. As far as paying up front, up until five or six years ago, that's how it was done. Back then you had a chance at drawing. Does anyone remember the guy that was caught poaching a few years ago using 80 yr. old plus grandmas name for a goat tag and I don't remember who elses for his elk, moose, etc. I bet he used a damn credit card to draw. I'm not questioning bobcats ability or desire but who has been on the Pahvant or Monroe or Beaver or Manti during the rut and seen first hand the large number of mature and long in the tooth bulls that don't get harvested? When 20 bulls are vying for 100 cows, competition is rough and all the 400 bulls get busted up then no one wants to take them because they won't "score" and they end up regressing, dying of old age. My point is, issue more tags, let the people hunt. If one year too many tags are out, cut back the next, it's a renewable resource if you don't kill off the baby factory and if a guy is happy with a 320 bull, don't give him guff. I'm almost positive most hunters wouldn't know a 400 bull if it bit them. Sorry for the length but let's have some more oppurtunity. I happen to know of a gentlemen that took a rather large bull of an open bull unit last year. The pressure is intense but hey get out of the truckk and off the 4 wheeler and you can dig them out. My .05.

SaddleSore · Aug 2, 2004

I like the idea of limiting the number of people who can put in as a party. I also like the idea of having to front the money. I think there is a big problem right now with people putting in every non-hunter in their family in hopes to get a tag, so they can turn around and shoot it for them. Fronting the money will reduce this problem.

Other than that, don't fix it if it is not broke. We have the "opportunity" to hunt spikes or branch antlered bulls every year in this state. I don't see the problem.

Tony, there are bigger problems to tackle other than the abundant elk herd in this state.

fishon · Aug 2, 2004

ktc,saddle sore

As far as I remember I have not given any ways to fix the elk situation, and I know there is alot that needs to be done in this state to fix the problems. I want the true sportsmens voice to be heard and then acted upon. I know that the very small amount of utahs sportsmen actual control policy, this is a shame. 1% of the sportsmen should not make policy for 100% of the people. There is a way to get more people involved and I am working on that plan. I will keep you informed on how it is coming and then I will let you know what I came up with. thanks for your concern for wildlife.

tony abbott

ktc · Aug 2, 2004

Fishon,

Maybe they could offer some more tags in some areas. Maybe we should see, or maybe we already know, how the division of tags among the different weapons has affected things with the AR-301 gone.

Maybe, if they offered more tags for archery, as has been an idea by bow hunters, that would work. Hell, give them 3 months to hunt if they use a primitive weapon like a recurve. ;-) Or, more muzzleloader tags if black powder and a ball is used.

Does anyone notice that the hardest odds of drawing are Pahvant, Monroe, San Juan, and West Desert? Why is that? Because they are known to hold the biggest bulls. Just like the Paunsagaunt for deer. There is a demand for big animals.

Just like SaddleSore said, if it isn't broke, don't fix it. Get me a pahvant tag next year, take my points, and then we can change things around a little. ;-)

bobcatbess · Aug 2, 2004

elk_horn

I DON'T HAVE ANYTHING AGAINST THE FRIENDS GOING!!!

I'VE SEEN CAMPS IN THE BOOK CLIFFS FOR SEVERAL YEARS THAT HAVE ONE GUY WITH A TAG AND 4 TO 10 WHEELERS RIPPING UP AND DOWN EVERY ROAD,TRAIL,BETWEEN TREE'S,DOWN RIDGES,DOWN CLOSED ROADS ETC.,MULTIPLY IT BY 100 AND YA THERES A LITTLE PRESSURE EVEN THOUGH THEIR NOT ALL SHOOTING!!!

JUST OUTLAW THE ATV'S AND GET IT OVER WITH!!!

I CAN'T OUT GUESS WHO WILL SHOOT A DINK AND WHO WON'T,BUT I SEE DINKS SHOT IN LE UNITS NEARLY EVERY YEAR AND THINK:MAN THERES ANOTHER WASTED TAG IN AN LE UNIT!!!

THERE ARE ALOT OF GOOD HUNTERS WAITING FOR THEIR ONCE IN A LIFETIME LE TAG THAT WOULD GO HOME EMPTY BEFORE TAKING A DINK IN A LE UNIT!!!

WHEN YOU'VE WAITED FOR THAT ONCE IN A LIFETIME LE TAG FOREVER I DON'T SEE WHY THE ODDS OF TAKING A TROPHY BULL SHOULDN'T BE IN YOUR FAVOR,BUT LOW AND BEHOLD,THERES NO DOUBT IN MY MIND IF THE IDIOTIC MAJORITY GET THEIR WAY JUST FOR MORE OPPORTUNITY DUE TO GREED THESE LE BULL UNITS WILL DECIMATED AND WON'T BE WORTH A DAMN BUT OH BOY THERE WILL BE OPPORTUNITY!!!

JUST SEND ME MY LE TAG,LET ME HUNT JUST ONCE,BEFORE ITS RUINED,LET ME GET IT OVER WITH,I'LL QUIT TRYING TO DRAW AND ALL OF YOUR ODDS WILL GO UP!!!

THE ONLY bobcat NOT WANTING TO SEE WHAT LITTLE BIT OF QUALITY WE HAVE DESTROYED BECAUSE EVERY PERSON IN THE STATE WANTS TO HUNT A LE UNIT!!!

PleaseDear · Aug 2, 2004

ktc--when did Wyoming go to 80% of tags to the highest points?? They are just starting the point system for elk-deer-antelope in 2005.(75%/25% on sheep-moose ). I"m most probably missing something in the Wyo. proc.!

I really feel they could keep quality and have quantity of tags increased, by simply shuffeling a few boundaries and hunt dates on rifle 100% harvest.

Get the option to 'return' a tag before the season unless Doctors documentation shows some major surgery or something of hte like. I believe it was 'Packout' that had a post about these max. point holders scouting and not seeing the right monster so they turn in the tag and retain the max. points for just the cost of the tag. That could keep 10-15% of the same numbers in the max. pool----- yearly!

bobcatbess---- do you think having a Dedicated Elk Hunter program would take some folks out of the LE draw yearly?? I know when AR301 went away, alot of my buds and myself where 'forced' back into the LE Elk numbers game.

I don't think the ideas to 'take out' a certain amount of hunters, credit card or some of the other ideas is real fair?? I think the 'Don Fee' of $280.00 LE elk has already screwed alot of hunters out of the game. I really feel we shouldn't take away opportunity for the single parent family with teenagers or for the kid delivering the paper that has to do his/her own thing with the money earned.
Man, I'm sentimental this morning!

RACKMASTER · Aug 2, 2004

where did you gut see that WY was now (in 2005) in a point system? maybe they(all states) do away with the point system altogether!
rackmaster

bobcatbess · Aug 3, 2004

PleaseDear

MAYBE WE SHOULD SAY PLEASE DWR,DEDICATED ELK HUNTER PROGRAM,NOT A BAD IDEA!!!

I CAN HEAR CRYBABIES ALREADY ON THIS ONE!!!

EVERYONE THAT WHINES,GOES ON THE 'DON'T GET TO DRAW LIST' FOR LE UNITS!!!

I WONDER IF THEY'D (UDWR) LET ME PUT IN HOURS USING MY CHUTE PLANE TO TAKE OUT OLD REGRESSING BULLS THAT MIGHT DIE IN 2-3 YEARS DUE TO OLD AGE???

THAT WAY I COULD HELP MANAGE THE UNITS SO THE CRYBABIES DON'T HAPPEN TO SEE OR HEAR OF A BULL DIEING FROM OLD AGE!!!

THE HARD COLD TRUTH IS:NOT EVERY WHINE-ASS CAN HUNT TROPHY BULLS IN UTAH EVERY YEAR,IF YOU INCREASE THE PERMIT NUMBERS THIS YEAR,THERE WILL BE 3 TIMES AS MANY PEOPLE WHINNING FOR MORE NEXT YEAR,IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE ODDS OR OPPORTUNITY GO HUNT THE OPEN BULL UNITS AND TAKE A STINKY BULL AND ENJOY ALL THE OPPORTUNITY OF HUNTING EVERY YEAR WITH 40,000 OTHER HUNTERS!!!

PREMIUM HUNTS CAN BE DESTROYED DUE TO GREED,I'VE SEEN IT HAPPEN BEFORE IN THIS STATE,I SAY WE KEEP THE QUALITY WE HAVE,THERES PLENTY OF OPPORTUNITY ON OPEN BULL HUNTS!!!

THE ONLY bobcat WILLING TO PAY A LITTLE MORE FOR QUALITY,OPPORTUNITY IS NO CHALLENGE!!!

NUNYA · Aug 3, 2004

Raise the tag fee's and do away with credit card app's.

MBM · Aug 3, 2004

I don't want to be able to hunt a mature bull every year but once every ten years would be nice. The way it stands know it is pretty much a once in a lifetime hunt.

I don't want to hunt the Open bull units as most of them are on Private Land or have horrible bull to cow ratios. I am more than happy to hunt spikes on spike areas, or hunt the open bull areas every year but I still would like to hunt for a decent bull more than once or twice in my lifetime. Maybe that is a greedy attitude but there it is.

I wouldn't expect areas like Pavant, Indian Peaks, San Juan and some of the top areas to be changed. These should still be managed for trophy bulls (although I think more tags could be offered and still be a trophy area). Bu tother areas such as the Wasatch, Manti, Boulder, Fish Lake ect.. could be managed differently to alow more tags and opertunity. Primative weapon opertunity an all these areas could be increased to alow more hunters. The rifle hunt needs to be moved from the rut.

To me a quality elk hunt would be a hunt that does not have the hunter pressure of the General season. I don't expect to shoot a 350+ bull but the chance at one of these type bulls should be there. I also would expect to be able to draw a tag every 7-10 years or so. I don't know if it is possible to have all these things but it is what I would like greedy or not.

Mark

ktc · Aug 3, 2004

I was referring to the Wyoming point system on moose. Isn't it 80/20?

Mark you say you would like a chance at a 350 bull every 10 years or so. We didn't see, under the current system, 350 bulls being taken regularly until about 7 or 8 years ago. Did we? It is either or for trophy bulls here. We have a once in a lifetime situation as it is with 350+ a goal that is obtainable. Or, We can go out and do the 300 thing every ten years or so.

I am curious. Those who want more opportunity, what is the situation? How many elk points do ya have? Have ya hunted anything else on an LE prior to putting in for elk? Those who want their kids to hunt, would you go for a 50/25/25 split of tags? One of the 25% being youth only? People say move the rifle out of the rut. I say put the bow hunt in the rut with a recurve. Not a Matthews ultra fast that you only need one pin out to 100 yards.

kilbuc · Aug 3, 2004

Moose split in WY is 75/25 between maximum points vs random draw. When the preference system 1st started in about '93, 100% went to maximum points. If you didn't get in on the ground floor it would be mannnny years before they rotated thru the hunters with max points. Then in about 2000 they modified the system so 25% of tags per area were awarded by random draw.

For sheep same thing. For NR they should rotate thru those with max points in about 3 years, for residents it will take another 5-6 years. Many more residents got in on the ground floor since tag application cost were about $70 (now $90) while NR it was $1000 to apply (now $1500).

from the "Heartland of Wyoming"

antlerrick · Aug 5, 2004

I think that the opportunity could be increased and the quality still kept at a high level by doing a couple of things that have already been mentioned. I think by moving the Any Weapon hunt later in the year, a few more tags could be issued there. I think that more permits could be given to the primtive weapons hunters based on their harvest percentage, as archery percentages are lower than muzzleloaders.
I think the idea of making applicants send their money with their applications would greatly increase the odds for everyone. And for all of you who say you can't afford it each year, you need to realize that once you have saved the money for the first year, and don't draw, just take the refund and bank it and it will always be there for the years to come. Everyone makes it sound like it is an annual ritual to come up with that much money "EVERY" year. If you do it right, it is only a one time thing, unless you don't have the self control to put it away for another year. I agree with the post that talks about all the grandpas, grandmas, aunts, sisters, neighbors, etc., being put in all on one credit card for the sole reason of some greedy "sportsman(?)" wanting to have mulitple chances at a permit every year. I think that when someone gets caught shooting any animal on someone else's permit, they should get the book thrown at them, and loose hunting priveleges forever! It seems you see someone out hunting every year who really has no desire to be there in the first place, or who has no idea of what the real value of their permit is to a true hunter & sportsman.
I know that there are many women who are great and dedicated hunters, so I'm not out to offend any you who truly love to hunt, but I'm talking about those who probably have never shot a rifle, or have never heard an elk bugle before. Management of this great resource is a tricky thing, and I would hate to see it lost, but with a little restructure, and careful management, I think we can have the best of both worlds, both quality animals, and increased opportunity. When I talk of increased opportunity, I am just talking about maybe getting more than one LE permit during a lifetime!
I think the conservation permit program is good to a degree, but knowing that those permits are pulled from the public pool really spoils it for me. They need to be carefully controlled and not increased as rumor has it.
Looks like my 2 cents has added up to about $1...just my feelings!
a*r

A bad day hunting is better than a Good Day at Work!!